NFL Stock Exchange: An NFL Draft Podcast - 35. Guest Mock Draft Series: Chargers, Eagles, Saints & Steelers (With Dainel Popper, Brandon Lee Gowton, Katherine Terrell & Christopher Carter)

Episode Date: April 12, 2022

Hosts Trevor Sikkema and Connor Rogers round out the Top 20 of the Guest Mock Draft with four great guests: Daniel Popper of The Athletic, Brandon Lee Gowton of Bleeding Green Nation, Katherine Terrell of The Athletic & Christopher Carter from Locked on Steelers

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. I'm sure by now you've all gotten back into your Sunday routines, but they could be even better with NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV. You get the most live NFL games all in one place, every game, every Sunday. And you can even watch up to four different games at once with MultiView, one of my favorite inventions of this decade. It's exactly what you need to catch all the action. Make your Sundays more magical. And also, YouTube TV is great.

I got it this year. It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com slash BS, device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to the NFL Stock Exchange podcast. On today's episode, the guest mock draft series is back. We have four selections for you today. Yes, four on the show, starting with the Chargers at pick 17, the Eagles back on

the clock at 18, and the Saints back on the clock at 19. Then the Pittsburgh Steelers, one of the most interesting teams in this entire NFL draft, on the clock at 20. But before we get into that, let's talk about the potential of Trayvon Walker going number one overall to the Jacksonville Jaguars in this draft. Why it would be unprecedented. Some player comps, some outliers, a lot to break down.

I'm Connor Rogers, joined as always by my co-host Trevor Sykema. Let's ring the bell. Welcome to the opening bell of the NFL Stock Exchange. I'm Connor Rogers, joined as always by my co-host Trevor Sikama. And Trevor, the guest mock draft series rolls on today. We have four picks to go through, man. We got a loaded show. Of course, we have the Chargers at 17, the Eagles at 18,

and we go to the Saints now at 19 and the Steelers at 20. A loaded guest list. Daniel Popper will be picking for the Chargers. Trevor has told me he has picked many, many years. I think he's the longest reigning guest mantra picker. Is that right? Longest tenured guest on the series. And there's a reason why, folks.

You got to listen to it to really know why. He's fantastic. Excellent. Brandon Lee Gowden for the Philadelphia Eagles. Catherine Terrell for the Saints. And then Chris Carter from Lockdown Steelers for the Steelers. So, loaded show today, Trevor. But before we get into the mock draft picks, something we got to get into on the show today.

A little bit of Trayvon Walker buzz going number one overall. I mean, let's just bring you in here. What was your initial reaction? Are you buying this? Do you understand it? Where are we at right now with the number one overall pick in the draft? So it's not a total surprise that we're hearing things like this. And the reason why we're talking about it today is because on Good Morning Football,

Peter Schrager, he's one of the people that sits at the desk there consistently, loves Schrags. He's awesome. He is a plugged-in dude. He's very plugged in around the league, talks to a lot of people. He's got great sources. And today on the show, he said this, quote, everyone's inking Aiden Hutchinson to the Jaguars.

But around the NFL, there's talk about GM Trent Baalke and his draft history with San Francisco. Year after year, the 49ers took players with incredible physical traits over top collegiate performers. That is Trayvon Walker. He gave the examples. physical traits over top collegiate performers. That is Trayvon Walker. What were the, he gave the examples,

Alden Smith over some of the other more solidified collegiate prospects that year that for the 49ers took Alden Smith. He brought up a Rick Armstead. He brought up a DeForest Buckner, a lot of different examples of where you could use these picks to justify potentially Trayvon Walker being the number one overall selection over Aiden Hutchinson. And look, Walker now has the second highest odds to go number one overall. Now, they're still – it's plus 300 for Trayvon Walker.

I think it's minus 350 for Aiden Hutchinson. So it's literally Aiden Hutchinson that people believe is going to go number one overall. But Walker is number two. Walker is number two in that list connor i just i can't believe we're at this point man i think that's the way to say it i think that trayvon walker is a great prospect i got to sit down and interview the dude love his mental makeup love his background love his character love just i think he's a great prospect but when we went through the edge rusher rankings i have him as edge six i had him as a late second round grade

on film knew the athletic testing was probably going to bump him up to be a first round selection but number one overall dude that's it's just it's just it's too rich for me man and i can't believe that we're really entertaining this potentially being the case here. All right, before we get into that, because I have a lot to say about Trayvon Walker potentially going on overall. Got to get it off his chest.

Got to get it off his chest. Got to remind you guys right now, you can get 50% off a PFF Elite annual subscription if you use the code DRAFT50. That's right, DRAFT50. With 365 days of Elite, you can get all the locked article content. PFF's NFL draft guide.

That is 250 plus pages on scouting profiles. Completely unlocked mock draft simulator. Obviously Trevor and I, when every Monday show we are going through the mock draft simulator for our mock drafts data grades from the entire 2021 season for next season, 2020, 20, 2022. the entire 2021 season. For next season, 2020-2022,

that's promo code DRAFT50 for a 50% off PFF Elite annual subscription. And a reminder, PFF is launching Hutch, a four-part podcast series with number one overall NFL draft prospect, maybe number one overall NFL draft prospect, Aiden Hutchinson, on April 13th. The show includes interviews with Jim Harbaugh, current and former Michigan football players,

key member of Aiden's family, media members, and draft analysts. I think like the guy sitting next to me. Check out Hutch on April 13th. All right, back to the opening of the show. You know what it is for me with Trayvon Walker, right? It's the matter of, okay, you sit there and you go, well, we like his athleticism, right? We're betting on that.

Are we sitting here and forgetting that Aiden Hutchinson is a guy that, at almost 6'7", 99 percentile three cone, right? 94 percentile 20-yard shuttle. It's not like he bombed a 40. Please talk about it. Please talk about it.

Above average 40. 80 percentile vertical. Please talk about it. Above average 40. 80 percentile vertical. I just, so if you're, like you look at it like that, Kayvon Thibodeau, we know what kind of athlete he is. These two guys to me,

I like Jermaine Johnson better than Trayvon Walker, but I won't go there today. I like him a lot better than Trayvon Walker. It's just these guys to me, have the tape, they have the production. Where where with Trevon Walker, you can look at that athleticism. You can look at the size, 272 pounds. That's all great. You probably love his run defense. There is so much projection needed for him as a pass rusher

that that is such a hard sell with the top five pick, let alone the number one overall pick. This just to me, Trevor, feels like overthinking in a spot where you're in really dangerous territory if you miss, right? And my stance on Trayvon Walker is he will not be a bust because he's such a high floor run defender. He's a good athlete. He's strong. You've talked to him. Obviously, the demeanor, the work ethic, that's all there. But right now, we have never seen this lack of pass rush production

drafted in this window where you and I say all the time, we think he's going to be a top three pick. We haven't seen something like this. And you bring up Alton Smith, and I know Peter Schrager did, and I totally understand the point. I'm not dismissing that he can go number one overall. Alton Smith had 11 and a half sacks as a red shirt freshman. Right.

You can look at the sophomore season and go, oh, you know, he was coming off a year where he wasn't ultra productive, all these things. As a red shirt freshman, he dominated. He dominated. So there is not somebody that you can really point to and go, well, it'll work out because of this. If there is, you know, prove me wrong. I don't see that kind of, oh, well, it'll work out because of this. If there is, you know, prove me wrong. I don't see that kind of, oh, well, it worked out here

and this is who we compare him to. Well, I mean, the closest thing we have is, you know, if you go over to mockdraftable.com and you look at Trayvon Walker and his athletic testings, they have a column on the left that kind of compares him to other people in the past that they have in their database. And the one that he most resembles resembles in this conversation is daniel hunter and when you look at daniel hunter 65 255 pounds okay 457 40 yard dash 36 and a half inch vertical 130 inch

broad jump which is insane uh six nine six nine five three cone right that's those are all fantastic numbers then you go over to trayvon walker six five two seventy two four five one forty yard dash this guy ran faster than daniel hunter at 20 extra pounds had basically the same vert at 36 inches had 123 inch broad jump so not 130 but i mean these are just like crazy athletes it's all in the same category another sub seven three cone six eight nine for Trayvon Walker so I think that Daniil Hunter is the comparison because when you go and you look at Hunter stats well let's look at Trayvon Walker stats first okay two and a half sacks his first season one sack his second season six sacks this past year which is clearly when he was able to play the most but he played next to a pretty stacked defensive line and i'm not taking anything away from trayvon walker i'm just giving

full context if you go over to daniel hunter you look at his three years at at lsu didn't have a lot of production in that first season three sacks his his second year and then one sack his junior season granted he had 13 tackles for loss so a little bit of that production was there for him but daniel hunter went third round right daniel hunter was a third round pick so that that's that's what we're talking about here it's not that we can't come up with examples of where players of similar athletic profile and lack of stat production worked out in the nfl they don't go top five. I can give you the examples. They don't go top five. They barely even go in the first round.

Now you would say, okay, but there are examples of success. And I agree with you. Daniil Hunter is one of the best pass rushers in the NFL when he's fully healthy. He's an incredible edge player, right? But how many guys aren't Daniil Hunter, right? How many guys aren't of that ability? And look, I think everybody is betting on Trayvon Walker more than they normally would because the athletic tests were

basically historic where you say to yourself can a player this freakishly athletic fail and I think that's what a lot of people are kind of coming around to is that it's just impossible for this caliber of an athlete to not be good in the NFL. But again, that's a conversation that we're having for players who are late first round picks, mid first round picks. You're taking him number one overall. That's, I mean, I don't know how we got here with that man, even for the people who believe in Trayvon Walker the most. And I think that he's going to be a good pro number one overall, man, that's rich. I think if I was in the draft room,

right? Cause I like to present it this way. If I was in the draft room in Jacksonville, we'll say, and I don't, I want to be clear. I don't think Jacksonville is taking Trayvon Walker number one overall. And I,

I'm not even sure the lions are a two, but there's a good, there's a good chance there. Number one, overall, everyone's on the board. Hutch, Thibodeau, we think they're going pass rusher, so we'll narrow it down there. And I'm the guy that's arguing against whoever in that room is saying, this is probably the guy we're taking.

My question when I look them in the eyes would be, what is the one translatable way he wins right now as a pass rusher? And if you can answer me that i will step aside and stop arguing i what is the answer what is the one translatable way right now not he ran well at the combine well he has long arms he's strong that's not translatable right now it would it would it would be athletic ability people would just tell you the burst the bend the the three-cone, the twitchiness.

You mentioned when I read the three-cone to you before the show, you were like, man, I just don't. It doesn't make sense. He just wasn't that twitched up on film. And I think that he has it in him. But again, you've got to be able to make the most out of that to bet on that athletic ability. So it's, yeah.

And it goes back to expectations, Trevor. There you go. Expectations. You're taking him number one. You are projecting him. And you could say, oh, it's not a great draft. It's a great pass rusher draft. It's a great pass rusher draft. Just because there's not a Chase Young,

it's a really good pass rusher draft. You're not drafting him to be good. You're not drafting him to have eight sacks and be good against the run. That's draft that you're not drafting him to be good you're not drafting him to have eight sacks and be good against the run that's not what you're drafting you're drafting him to be a double digit sack player a cornerstone defender on your defensive line a guy that offensive coordinators stay up at night and go well i don't know i don't know what we can do right are we going to double them are we going to chip them all day with a tight end are we going to have to keep a back and pass pro just to get run over by him

to give him a chance? I don't see it. I don't see that. It's going to be a long two and a half weeks here with who's going number one overall. There's no lock to it. Look, we said a couple of months ago we were thankful that we didn't already know who the number one overall pick is.

Maybe we're eating our words a little bit, but I am. I'm very excited to see who ends up being the first name called in this draft i think it could be a handful of different guys we think it's going to be aiden hutchinson but we're only going to hear more and more of these reports and connor and i are of course going to be here to hopefully decipher it all for you maybe be able to weed some things out and give you a good look at how the draft's been going that's what we've been doing in this guest mock draft series and before we resume it here in a couple of minutes i gotta tell you guys about our new presenting sponsor on this podcast jock market that's jock m k t their motto stop betting and start trading it's such a cool game

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subscription over at jock mkt.com backslash pff it The MLB is underway. NBA, NHL, their playoff runs are ramping up here. Check it out. Jock Market, jockmkt.com backslash PFF. Should I recap the draft? I feel like I have to. Yeah, take it away. I feel like I got to do it. I feel like it's always a mouthful every time, but I need to.

In the guest mock draft, up to number 17, which is where we are beginning today with the Los Angeles Chargers. Number one overall, we had Aiden Hutchinson. Number two, Detroit Lions. They went Trayvon Walker. Number three, Houston Texans went Kyle Hamilton. Number four, New York Jets, Kayvon Thibodeau. Five Giants went Charles Cross.

Six Panthers went Evan Neal. Seven of the Giants went Sauce Garner. Falcons at 8 took Jordan Davis Seahawks at 9 took Derek Stingley Jets at 10 took Icky Aquano incredible haul there for the Jets Washington Commanders at number 11 they took Drake London

Vikings at 12 they took Tyrell Linderbaum Texans again at 13 they took George Karloftis Ravens at 14 Jermaine Johnson and the Eagles at 15 they took Malik Willis and then 16 Saints they went Trevor penning and that brings us up to the los angeles chargers at number 17 let's get daniel popper on the line up to number 17 in the guest mock draft series and for the los angeles chargers we have a familiar face on for the fifth time in this series the longest tenured guest in the guest mock draft

going all the way back to lockdown nfl draft it is daniel popper daniel we've had you we just said this off air across two teams you were originally doing this for the jacksville jaguars and then you flipped over with the athletic going over to cover the los angeles chargers and so man you spanned across two teams and yet your devotion to this guest mock draft pod is unwavering yeah that that really just speaks to your character my friend thank you again for joining us oh i appreciate that we got new teams five years new platform new hosts true that's true everything's changed except you the common denominator it's me right here ready to make the pick yeah we were talking about it too, this mock you send me is fascinating.

Like it took me a little bit to figure out where I was going to go because there's a few guys that I was, I'm just not expecting to be there. And I've been sort of writing about all the different scenarios. And, um, so it's fascinating, but I love doing this with you every single year, because as we were just talking about, you get a bunch of different people picking and you get a scenario that it's really hard for anyone to you know write out if they're just doing it individually so really interesting and happy to be back five years man we'll keep doing it hopefully we do it for 12 years 15 years we'll just keep this thing going forever the tom brady

of the guest that the guest mock draft series right here he's never gonna retire we'll say it's not coming back and then we'll bring it back just for me if we can't do the series we're absolutely just gonna have him on for a rogue episode and just like put it on patreon or something so all right before we get into the picks themselves let's do a little background on the chargers of course everything that we have seen them do this off season how aggressive they've been it's all centered around how damn good Justin Herbert looked last year. Because when a quarterback, a young quarterback especially, looks that good, you know the whole organization then has to put their foot on the gas pedal to make sure they make the most out of that rookie contract.

So what was it like watching Justin Herbert last year? Was there a moment when you guys covering the beat were like, oh, this dude might be something special here. I know he had the four-touchdown game against Kansas City early on. Was it kind of there or maybe a little bit earlier in the season? When did you know that Justin Herbert was about to take that next leap as a quarterback? Yeah.

I mean, last year, obviously, the way he performed, you knew that he was a stud. But I think heading into this season, we were all interested to see how he was going to adjust to this new scheme obviously Joe Lombardi coming over from the Saints bringing that you know Sean Payton passing offense over here it's obviously very complex you know Drew Brees did it at a high level because one of the greatest processors in the history of football was Justin Herbert going to be able to do that and they just dumped it on him early like they gave him everything in the playbook right away and I remember sitting down with Justin for a one-on-one interview and he was like, yeah, it felt like we were drowning

just because there was so much, but he's that smart. And he processes that well that he was able to, you know, really acclimate himself to the offense. And, and from the jump really played at a high level. I think you talk about a moment where you're like, okay, you know, this guy could be, you know, the best quarterback in football in the near future. It's probably that giants game when he hit Jalen Guyton on that 65 yard touchdown. Wow. While getting hit like that moment, I, I, I was like, that's the best throw I've ever seen in my life. One of the greatest athletic feats, because it's one thing to, you know, set yourself and throw it 65 yards on the money for a touchdown without getting hit, but he was getting hit by a 270 pound edge rusher as he threw it.

And I think in that moment, you're like, all right, this guy can do stuff that no one else can do. And then week 18 at the Raiders, the two drives, really the three drives going into overtime that he led to bring the chargers back in that game. You're not going to see a better stretch of quarterbacking from anyone like full stop. I mean, I went back and counted the number of do or die throws he made on those three drives. The number of fourth downs he converted. There were nine do or die throws where if he didn't make a completion on that play,

the Chargers would have lost in their season would have been over. And so I think what you're looking at in terms of spinning it ahead into the offseason, you know, that moment, those drives. I think the organization realized, like, we have one of the best quarterbacks playing right now. He could be the best quarterback in the league. And so we have to build a complete team around him. And that has been the buzzword. It isn't just about building the infrastructure offensively in terms of the weapons, in terms of the offensive line,

it's about giving him a defense that can show up and get a stop when they need them, which they couldn't do. I mean, you go back to the final play of that game, a third and four, they had to get a run stop and Josh Jacobs got seven yards in that play and the Raiders kicked the field goal to win the game. And so that's been the process this whole off season is get him a defense that isn't one of the worst in the league. They were 26 and DVO a 28th and EPA per play, give them like a middle of the pack defense

and you're probably in the playoffs. And that's what they went out and did in free agency. You know, J.C. Jackson, Sebastian Joseph Day trading for Khalil Mack, just building a defense that can provide Justin Herbert with the infrastructure, not just offensively, but on both sides of the ball to sort of build a complete team around him. So after doing all that, and it looks great on paper and it's going to be a better unit, barring health, of course, you look at the offense, and for me, the thing that stands out,

especially since they were able to bring back Mike Williams, is what is the situation at right tackle right now? And for you, is there somebody on the roster internally that they are higher on than the general public? Or do you look at right tackle and go, they're going into the draft, that gap from pick 17 to 79 is really big. So if you don't address that in the first round, there's a little bit of risk there, but there's also the question is what tackle would make it that far in the first round. So

how do they view right tackle right now? And what do you think the, the answer could be at that key spot in this division? Yeah. So you go back to that week 18 game and just, you know, the way that storm Norton played against max Crosby. And I think that left a sour taste and in the team's mouth, obviously I think in terms of storms performance, there were obviously bright moments. He had really solid games. I think max Crosby is a particularly bad matchup for him.

That's not going to go away, obviously because they're playing the Raiders twice every single year because they're in the same division. Right. So I think they're looking to upgrade there. In terms of internal options on the roster, Matt Filer started out as a tackle with the Steelers early on in his career. He's played right tackle and played pretty well there. So I think they view their position. It's pretty flexible at this point, right? Let's say they're at 17 and one of these top four tackles falls. Obviously, that didn't happen in this mock draft, a little foreshadowing. But if, say, Trevor Penning is there at 17,

I think you can easily make that pick and keep Matt Filer at left guard. Now, if they don't get a tackle in the first round, you kick Matt Filer out to right tackle, you provide some stability there. They were hesitant to do that last year because they wanted Rashawn Slater at left tackle to get off to a good start in his career. So they wanted a solid player next to him, a left guard. That's why they went out and signed Matt Filer. But now Rashawn Slater is a stud. Like he's going to be an all pro level tackle where he's playing there now. So now they're like a little more open to, okay, we can move Matt Filer to right tackle.

And then all of a sudden, okay, you need a guard. You can find a guard at 79, right? It's hard to find a tackle at 79, but you could easily find a guard at 79. Ode Ibushi, who tore his ACL in week five, was playing really good football before he got hurt. He's still an option to bring back. So all of a sudden you bring back Ode Ibushi, you draft a guard at 79. You have Brendan Hymus.

They took my fifth round last year. You kick Fowler out to right tackle. You have Slater. You have Corey Linsley. It's looking okay. So I think they feel flexible as far as what they can do and they'll see what happens in the first round of a tackles there i fully expect them to go in that direction but if not i think they'll invest in guard later in the draft kick matt filer out to right tackle and sort of see what combinations work the best

in terms of those two interior spots i want to go back to defense because you mentioned a lot of the additions that they have and and how it's been kind of their their goal to make that defense a lot better to even it out a little bit with the offense you mentioned that if offensive tackle was on the board maybe they go offensive tackle there but is it basically either offensive tackle or they're going defense here at number 17 when it comes to this first round pick do you expect defense to be heavily on the board for them and i guess another question on top of that is how aggressive do you think that this team might be obviously they don't have a second round pick because they moved it for a little mac but shoot we've seen people run simulations before where we got the chargers going hey you were aggressive in free agency

get aggressive in the draft move up from 17 take the first round pick from next year get somewhere around into the top 10 if there's a defensive player or an offensive tackle that you really want that might be able to fall do you see defense being heavily littered with their needs of where they might go in the draft and then do you also think that they're going to be aggressive in this draft yeah i just because of the clue max trade because they gave up that capital i think it's unlikely that they would move up and sacrifice future draft capital i mean you know brandon staley wants to turn this roster over in his own image. And the easiest way to do that is by having draft picks. And I would be surprised if they give up like a first or a second next year

to try and move up in terms of the first round, I can see them going in any direction, right? Like I think defensive line is obviously on the table. If Jordan Davis gets there, I think corners on the table, but I wouldn't rule out wide receiver either. Cause we talked about, okay, this is a pretty complete offense. I think the two holes are, as Connor mentioned, right tackle, obviously. And then speed at receiver.

That's really what they're missing. We know Mike Williams can access the deep part of the field, but he does it in a different way than say crystal lobby or Jamison Williams would do it. Right. He's a big body, 50, 50 balls. And so they really are missing that speed element. They have Jalen Guyton, but you know, Jalen Guyton isn't sort of an elite route runner. He can't really run the complete tree. He's a speed guy. He's gotten better in that area. But he has some inconsistent hands and he's not, you know, the type of receiver that some of these

other guys are. So I think that there's value in the NFL and strengthening strengths. I think good teams do that. They look at something, they say, this is our strength. Let's make it even better. You saw what the, what the Bengals did last year, right? I mean, they had a good receiving core. They had a really good receiving core going into, into the season, but they said, okay, Jamar Chase is going to make our strength even stronger and what they do.

They, they made the super bowl. So the chargers need some speed offensively. They're not just going to draft a speed guy late in the draft because Brandon still has said, we want complete receivers. There's going to be a couple of guys there potentially that they could go with. So I could see wide receiver absolutely being a possibility. And that was really what I was mulling over here at 17 with how this mock draft shook out. Cause a couple of those guys were there where I was like,

they can really make this offense a lot better and open up a new dynamic in terms of getting to the deep part of the field and having multiple dynamic in terms of getting to the deep part of the field and having multiple options in terms of getting to the deep part of the field, the guys that do it in different ways, adding speed. So it's not, so when Jalen gets on the field, it's not like opposing defense. They're like, all right, he's going deep. He's running the post. Like we know exactly what we're going to call here. So to take that away, if you have two guys on the field with that type of speed, four, three, five,

whatever it is, all of a sudden it creates a whole new, whole new dynamic. So I think that's, that's certainly a possibility, but you know, if a good defensive player is there and we'll get into this with my pick, I think that's been the focus and they still need to add depth pretty much at all three levels of the defense. So I could, I mean, they can go edge rusher, they can go D line, they can go tackle, they can go wide receiver. I really wouldn't rule out like the only position that they're not going to take is is quarterback obviously that's really sort of where they're at in terms of how they built this

roster so far so one more i'll ask you about because i know opinions on him have been all over the place where is this team at with linebacker right and i think it's hard to justify taking one at 17 for as good as devin lloyd is as Nekobe Dean is. And, you know, it's a position traditionally you can find high end starters in rounds two, three, four, on and on it goes. But it feels like Kenneth Murray has struggled early on to, you know, after being, let's be real, a priority pick for them. They went out of their way to come up and get Kenneth Murray. So internally, is there, you know, belief that that green light is going to come on

for Kenneth Murray, or at least he gets this season to show that before they start to turn linebacker into a priority with how talented the edge rush is, how talented the safeties are behind them right now? Yeah, it's really a positional value thing. And you got to go back to 2020 with Brandon Staley and what he did with that Rams defense, the amount of linebacker talent he had on that team. Very little linebacker talent, and he that team, very little linebacker talent. And he created the best defense in football. And so that's, that's really how he views things. Like he feels like if he gets the right players up front and in the

secondary, he can build the best defense in football without elite elite linebackers. And they have linebackers on the roster. Drew tranquil is a really solid player. The exact type of player that Staley loves at linebacker, super cerebral, super smart, always in the right place at the right time. Not like an imposing player physically or athletically, but just knows how to play football, knows how to read gaps,

knows how to penetrate tackles really consistently. So he's a piece that they feel like they can rely on. I just had some injury issues, but that's like a guy that they feel like, okay, he can play linebacker for us with Kenneth Murray. So basically what happened was they, they traded up because Gus Bradley really felt like they needed a Mike linebacker. They need like a Bobby Wagner, Fred Warner, and either guy with that type of system.

And they thought that they could groom Kenneth Murray into that. And that's why they went and got Kenneth Murray. Now they had a scheme change. Kenneth Murray was doing things in that rookie year that he's just not comfortable doing playing a ton of coverage. They were asking to drop and play action and cover the middle of the field. And I mean, you can watch play after play after play where he was biting on play action

and getting hit behind on, on, on crossers and it was happening over and over and over again. Now in the new scheme, he was allowed to play a little more downhill. And I thought he was going to take a step forward, but he rolled his ankle in the training camp scrimmage. And then a few weeks later in week four, they were at practice on a Saturday before the Monday night game against the Raiders. And he was out there like just catching passes and rolled his ankle again, the other one.

So he had two bum ankles the whole season. I think the Chargers look at it and say, okay, he had a lot going on in terms of injuries and that, that affected his play. I think they're expecting him to be better, to be better. They've got two other linebackers in the roster and Nick Neiman, who they in the sixth round last year and amen agbong babiga who was an undrafted free agent they like both those guys i think they're definitely going to take a linebacker but because of positional value i just don't see it happening early in the draft like they have you know six picks in the sixth or seventh round and same amount yeah right use one of those on a guy

who's falling because he lacks athleticism. He doesn't have that sideline to sideline speed that teams are looking for a linebacker, but a guy that just knows how to play football, cerebral guy, high football IQ, high football character. You can find those type of linebackers in the sixth or seventh round.

You throw them in that mix with those other four guys, you have the training camp, you see who comes out on top. But just from a positional value standpoint, I just don't see Brandon Sealy investing like that in a linebacker early in the draft that makes a ton of sense now daniel you have set the table very well for this pick here that you're about to make at 17 a lot of different seasoned vet a lot of yeah a lot of experience you do he knows how it goes he knows how it goes and so you know you mentioned a couple of different areas on defense that they might look for wide receiver could be very tempting offensive tackle

not really tempting at this pick but I think you got a lot of options here so at number 17 if the board falls this way it's a very interesting board who do you think you'd be taking for the chargers I'm taking cornerback Trent McDuffie out of Washington. Pretty surprised he was there at 17. I would not expect that to happen considering how valuable cornerbacks are in today's game. He's just a competitive player. He's a willing run defender. He can play inside.

He can play outside. Solid man-to-man coverage like that. And I know he's a little undersized, but look at what happened with Asante Samuel Jr. last year. Fell into the second round, undersized. Can he play corner in the NFL? Is he strong enough? He's just a competitor. Like he's just a competitor.

And you want guys on your football team that play that way, especially, you know, at cornerback, even if they're a little bit undersized, if they play with that type of edge, they're going to be successful in the NFL. And I see a lot of similarities between Asante Samuel Jr. and Trent McDuffie because Asante can play inside and outside. Now they had him outside all of last season, but he's, he might be their slot corner this year. They're going to sort of see how it plays out, see how the draft plays out,

but they feel like he can play inside. Like with Rashawn Slater, they wanted him to get off to a solid start as a rookie. So they put him where he was comfortable, but he was playing inside in the slot in training camp, matching up one-on-one with keenan allen and winning reps so he can do it um and he's just i think trent mcduffie fits exactly what staley's looking for in a corner now if a guy like derrick stingley falls obviously the athletic traits jump out to you and there's a reason that the chargers had their entire defensive staff at the lsu pro day um but yeah but um i'm going with Trent McDuffie here. And I'll go back to this, right?

Worst third down defense in the league last year. A lot of that was run defense because they were getting into way too many third and shorts. But when they didn't get into third and longs, they just didn't have the quarterback depth to hang with top wide receivers. You can go back to the Vikings game when Justin Jefferson and Adam Thielen

just torched Javon Campbell over and over and over and over again on third and eight and plus. And that was because they had some injuries at corner. Staley is going to be adding as many corners as possible because he needs to deal with the attrition at the position. I don't think the team is very high on Michael Davis anymore. He's their third corner right now. If you draft Trent McDuffie, all of a sudden,

Michael Davis has to be in a competition for playing time. That's going to raise everyone's play and makes you make sure the chargers don't have to rely on Michael Davis as like a key piece in this defense. Cause he really struggled to acclimate to the scheme last year. Obviously he was playing a lot of cover three and Gus Bradley scheme. He was asked to do a lot more in Staley scheme in terms of number of coverages he was playing. And he didn't really rise to the occasion. They're going to be looking to add cornerbacks because of what happened last

year on third down. And so I think it just makes a ton of sense. Now what I will say here is took every fiber of my being to not draft jameson williams here and i could totally i mean i would love that he is exactly what the chargers need like he is exactly what chargers need and they have enough offensively especially after drafting josh palmer last year they have enough to get through the first five six weeks of the season give jameson williams as much time as he needs right to get back from a torn acl they don't need him to be there right away and then i also think that they have to start thinking about life after keenan allen right they have an out in that contract after next year he's still playing at a really

high level but if you draft jameson williams josh palmer is that that played in the slot last year when Keenan Allen was out with COVID, he played the Keenan Allen role in the slot, caught a touchdown. He has that type of route running ability. He has a type of size that this offensive staff really loves to have in the slot. So say Keenan Allen has a down year. So they want to, they want to move off of that huge contract that they gave him. They can do that now move Josh Palmer inside. They have Jamison Williams and Mike Williams on the outside.

That's pretty good. So it was hard for me not to do that just because the level of player he is. I would be shocked if he's actually there at 17, but it's sticking with the theme of the offseason. It's been about defense. It's been about improving the talent across the board. Try McDuffie adding to that cornerback room, adding to that secondary, I think would get Staley

to the place in the secondary where he's really comfortable in terms of calling the types of defenses that he wants to call, which he wasn't able to do last year because of the talent level. Folks, that's why he's a five-year vet on the guest podcast series right there. He lays it all out for you. He answers the questions that you want to know the answers to before we even get to ask him. And that's why he is the longest tenured guest that we have had on this series. Go follow him on Twitter.

It's Daniel R. Popper, right? I believe on Twitter. Right. Okay. Just want to make sure I got the R in there. Everybody go follow him. Read his work over at the athletic.

Daniel, thank you so much for joining us, man. This is a blast. Thanks for having me guys. I'm looking forward to year six, baby. Let's go. That's right. There we go. Let's go.

Here we go. Philadelphia Eagles back up on the clock here in the guest mock draft series at number 18 and joining us to talk about the Philadelphia Eagles and make a selection here in this guest mock draft. We have Brandon Lee Gowden, who is the editor in chief for Bleeding Green Nation. Brandon, I know that you have a lot of titles, but I wanted to use the chief one because anytime chief is in a title, I feel like that's the one that I have to say for people. So thank you. I hope that was the right title for you and appreciate you joining us, man.

Thanks for having me guys. Appreciate it. And yeah, it's always good when you can just make up a title for yourself and then make people say it when then you go on their show and then they have to say it. It's great. And look, I a hundred percent agree. And you, again, using a title with chief in it, man, it was great. It was a great choice by you, which shows sound judgment, which I know you're going to have on this pick as well. Let's talk about why the Eagles are selecting twice in this mock draft here.

It's because of the trade, right? They're only picking twice instead of three times. They make the trade with New Orleans Saints. They get some extra draft capital for next year. What was your initial thought when you saw that the trade went down? And honestly, what did you think about what they got in return and the assessment of what they're trying to do overall? So the Eagles did exactly what I think almost everyone thought they had to do, which is get some kind of Jalen Hurts insurance policy because, okay, three first round picks this

year. That sounds great. But, and it's a big, like, if, what if Jalen Hurts doesn't prove to be the guy in 2022 and all of a sudden you're there in 2023 NFL draft and you only have one first round pick and all these other teams have two, four other teams actually have two. So they did exactly what they needed to do. And I think you have to give a lot of credit to Howie Roseman because I think other teams

had a sense that the Eagles kind of wanted to move down and get that extra first round pick. Right. And if you look at the history of teams trading back in the Eagles range where they were in the middle of the first round, it's not just like a guarantee. You can always move down and pick up that future first as it's easier, obviously, at the top of the first round. So I think you have to give Howie a lot of credit. All right. So let's start with the situation you already presented in. The Eagles had picked already in this mock draft of credit. All right. So let's start with the situation you already presented in. The Eagles had picked already in this mock draft at 15. Ben Solak took Malik Willis, who fell to 15, which puts you in an interesting situation now, knowing that that quarterback has been taken. One, how do you view that pick and that dynamic with Jalen Hurts? Obviously Malik would sit this

year. Are you of the belief that if the right quarterback just falls all the way to philadelphia this year they take them now or do you think it's build as much as you can around jalen hurts and if it really falls out or doesn't go where you want it to in terms of his development then you definitely look next year we'll leave it to ben select to uh complicate things for me here absolutely i knew he was going to, when he said that pick, I was like, all right, well, our next guest might have a little bit more cut out for him. Really appreciate it, Ben. No, I get it though. I mean, it's really not irrational. The Eagles, why is Jalen Hurts on the Eagles roster? Because they took him with the number 52 overall pick when they had just

signed Carson Wentz to a contract extension to be one of the highest paid quarterbacks in the NFL, not that long prior. So it's really not insane to think they could do that. The Eagles are doing a lot of pre-draft homework on Malik Lewis and in some other quarterbacks as well. They're having Max Harrell in for a visit. So it's really not like out of the realm of possibility by any means. I'm not going to hate on Ben for that, but I do think, you know, it's an upside play obviously. And i think having these multiple first round picks you kind of maybe are just really putting the or you're really just banking on that flexibility and just shooting for the upside um so i think it's within reason again of happening um i don't think it's necessarily the most likely thing just because it seems like

for now at least they're gonna you know ride with jalen hurts for one more year and then see how that goes maybe pivot next year. So I think that's the situation as it looks right now. When you look at the pass catchers on this team, I think back when the Eagles obviously had three first-round picks, it was very easy to say, okay, one of them is going to be a pass catcher. But now that they only have two, now that, I don't know, quarterback might be in the discussion for them,

I'm starting to wonder how much of a need is wide receiver for them. And basically my question is, how out is this team on guys like Jalen Rager, guys like J.J. Ortega Whiteside, right? I mean, they don't have Zach Ertz anymore, so it's just Dallas Goddard at tight end. And so, like, where does this team, where do you believe this team believes they are with wide receiver? I think they're not satisfied in terms of, they tried to trade for Calvin Ridley and obviously he got suspended for the

whole year. So that didn't work out. Right. They tried to go after Alan Robinson. They tried to go after Robert Woods. They reportedly had some interest in Brandon coach before he signed an extension of the Texans last week. So I don't think it's for a total lack of effort when it comes to the inaction they've had at receiver, other than signing Zach Paschal, who many Eagles fans will be hoping is not a top two or three receiver on this

team this year. So I think again, they've tried, but my whole thing about this has been okay. It's going to be tougher to attract free agent receivers, especially ones who want to boost their value, especially come on that one-year deal and try to hit the market again next year when you're coming off a season and when you had one of the very heaviest runoff offenses in the nfl like to not have that passing volume i think was a red flag for a lot of those receivers and hard to attract those guys so in that sense i must think the draft is the perfect opportunity where the players don't really get much of a say and have to go where they're drafted.

And I think that's the spot where they're going to be looking to add a receiver. This offensive line traditionally has been one of the better units in football, especially as a run blocking unit, like you said, a very run heavy team, but you could start to see them getting aging in certain spots here and definitely having some question marks going forward with future spots do you think they look at this unit as it's still really good right now and we'll cross that bridge when it becomes a problem or do you think they're going to operate in a sense of we're going to need somebody here in the first couple of rounds even if they have to sit this year to

start thinking for the future you just love building through the trenches. So it's hard to like rule out that they're going to do it in the first round. I tend to think that if they're smart about it, they'll realize they have a really good offensive line coach and Jeff Stoutland, and you might not necessarily need to spend all those premium resources in the offensive line as much as you might be able to be like, Hey, our offensive line coach can kind of make more out of less. So let's kind of just not invest the first round pick there. And let's, you know, maybe use that on another position that we're not as good as evaluating, or we, we struggle to kind of lay in that impact kind of player.

Obviously Jordan, my lot is an exception in many ways, but like that's a seventh round pick didn't even play football. Jeff Stoutman was able to coach him up. And obviously my lot of deserves a lot of credit too, for taking the development that he did but i think they have enough there currently in the starters and also kind of behind the scenes some of their depth pieces where they don't really need to force a pick there if there's an offensive lineman he's like head and shoulders the best player on the board take him sure but if it's close i wouldn't put that there what about corner and safety the the defensive back group in philadelphia it seems as though when we do mock drafts like if a derrick stingley falls to them it's normally like okay

well we'll have derrick stingley go to the philadelphia eagles or maybe a trent mcduffie but people go okay that the size of trent mcduffie are they going to be worried about it honestly it feels like if there's a team that wouldn't be worried about it, it would be the Eagles. But where do you think the level of need is on this team for both corner and secondary? I can be wrong about this, but my theory on corner for the Eagles, and you look at kind of Eagles defensive coordinator, Jonathan Gannon's background, and kind of like I was just talking there about Jeff Stoutland with offensive lineman. I think Gannon typically has gotten more out of less at cornerback. I mean, you look at Xavier Rhodes. I think everyone thought his career was over when he was struggling with the Vikings.

He got cut. He ends up in Indy and then he bounces back. And I remember Chris Bauer had actually specifically credited Jonathan Gannon at the time for that turnaround. I think you look at the Eagles last year. They were able to sign Steven Nelson off the street, like right before training camp. And he stepped in and he was pretty solid for them. So I don't know, again, that they need to force a pick there

as much as I would say, like at wide receiver, that's a position like where their options are thinner and they kind of might have to go for that. If the corner like Stingley is there and head and shoulders above everyone else, I think they can do that, but it's not something where like, well, we have a hole here.

So we need to force that. Steven Nelson, who I mentioned, by the way, is still out there. All right, Brandon, let's put you on the clock. You already had this draft for the Eagles walk away with Malik Willis at 15. You are now in the driver's seat yet again, just a couple of picks later. We've talked about maybe the need for wide receiver. We've talked about an aging offensive line, a really interesting team with two first round picks. What direction are you going here? So if Jordan Davis was still on the board here, I'd be tempted to do it.

I know he's not, so I can't do it. We didn't talk about defensive line, but I just wanted to throw that in there. He's one of the guys I'm really intrigued by. But if it's not Jordan Davis for me, the other guy I really want there in the first round for the Eagles is Jamison Williams. I think there's a lot of potential there. I think there's a lot of upside. The Eagles need help at receiver. me the other guy i really want there in the first round for the eagles is jameson williams i think

there's a lot of potential there i think there's a lot of upside the eagles need help at receiver uh you have malik willis here now on this theoretical team imagine him launching deep balls down to james williams that's something i can get behind so i didn't ask you this when we were when i asked you about wide receiver but do you think there is more of a speed profile that they're they're going for like obviously they have jalen rager and he's been a disappointment arthego white side has as well these are two different styles of receiver though a more speed one with rager a more size one with arthego white side do you think they'd be leaning one or the other that they might prioritize at this at this round of the selection if they're going to pick a wide receiver.

I think the Eagles got burned a little bit by that with rigor. Cause they really wanted to force. We need a speed guy. So we don't need Justin Jefferson. He's a volume target. He's a slot guy. We don't need that. We need speed. So I think they might've learned their lesson from that. At least I would, I would hope so and think that it's kind of just getting the best overall talent, a dynamic playmaker, the best receiver possibly they can get kind of not worrying a lot about fit. I mean, in a perfect world,

I think they could really use a prototypical X kind of guy. Cause you look at the receivers, Quez Watkins, Devante Smith, not the biggest dudes, but I think it's hard to pass up on pure talent like this, where they are. And I think they might've learned from that and they go in that direction. Malik Willis and Jamison Williams. What do you think about it, Connor? That's the one two for the Eagles here in this guest mock. I like it. Jamison Williams has been one of my favorite mock picks. You know, the Eagles, Jamison Williams connection. And since we've started mock drafts, I just think it's the right compliment in that receiver room and what he does even without targets coming his way for that run game. You see guys playing 10 yards off him all the time.

You see safety shading that way. He would cost so much attention, even when the football is not in his hands, that for a run game that was excellent last year, it could become even better. Exclusively Alabama wide receivers. That's going to be the Eagles motto from this point forward. And look, Alabama is a talent factory,

so I don't think that's a bad thing there. Follow him on Twitter, brandon gow and he is the he is the editor-in-chief had to say it again at bleeding go read all of his work over there as well brandon thank you so much for joining us thanks for having me guys now we're up to pick number 19 it is the new orleans saints once again nick underhill took trevor penning number 16 for the Saints. But as we know now, they have two first round selections. So to help us with the second first round selection for the New Orleans Saints, we have Catherine Terrell, who is here from The Athletic. Catherine, thank you so much for joining us on our guest mock draft pod.

Thanks for having me on. I feel like the Saints have made it a little more interesting in the last week. They always do. And there's a million different ways they could go this year, which is why the draft is going to be kind of fun. And what is it now? Just a little over two weeks. Oh, it's not going to be kind of fun.

It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a lot of fun for a lot of different reasons. And the Saints are absolutely one of those reasons. Obviously, as I said before, they were only selecting once, now selecting twice with a nice little move with the Philadelphia Eagles. But I'm curious to just open up this little Q and a here, Catherine, what'd you think of the trade? Did you guys hear that something like this might be coming, that they were really looking to make a splash in the draft order or anything like that. And so when the news went down, what was your initial thoughts of it? I mean, it was a surprise and

not a surprise at all. The saints love trading up. I feel like every year fans say, well, I don't think trade back and get more picks. The saints never trade back and get more picks. They love making these big trades. Usually they're on draft day. I think people will remember a few years ago, they traded a first round pick to move up for markets. Davenport 2017,

they had two first round picks and selected Marshawn Lattimore and Ryan Ramchak, which ended up, you know, being the best, one of the best drafts they've ever had. And so, you know, I guess the hope is another draft like that. Except this year, it seems all focused on offense. So I see this big trade. And I think my head was spinning for a second, trying to process those numbers. And yet no part of me was surprised that the saints did this.

I think everyone always wants to say, if it's a big trade, it's for a quarterback, right? And maybe it is, but I don't necessarily think that the Saints are set on getting a quarterback this year. It could happen, but I don't think just because they make this big move that it has to be for a quarterback, especially not in this draft class. Catherine, that's where I wanted to start. I look at it with Jameis Winston, and I think it's overlooked that he had 14 touchdowns, three picks through seven games last year.

The team was winning with him at quarterback. The money, while not crazy, it does show a belief in him as a starter. Where are they with Jameis Winston right now? Do they look at it and go, we don't need to panic and go up in a bad quarterback draft and try to get someone just to get someone does this regime believe they can win at a high level with james under center well i think it's limited belief in james and i think that's kind of highlighted by the fact that they went and tried to get to sean watson and then when you break down the numbers of his contract you they actually can get out of the contract. Well, I say get out. It's funny.

It's a two-year deal, but it has all those voidable years. But, you know, they could decide to move on after a year and really have limited repercussions for the salary cap. So it seems to me like they actually thought Jameis was starting to get better. I think Jameis played a little cautious at the beginning. You know, he came into that year. He'd been a backup. So many people were so focused on the 30 interceptions. So I think he kind of played a little within himself because of that.

And maybe Sean Payton wanted him to. But as the year was going on, I thought he was kind of coming into his own and then he got hurt. So yeah, I think they can win with Jameis. I think they think that too, but I don't think they're set on him being the starter of the future. I think he has to prove that to them. So yeah, maybe they take a quarterback in this year's draft class. Maybe they don't. But the one thing I think they won't do,

and I don't think they want to do is to get a quarterback, just to get a quarterback and then be stuck with someone that they reached for. But the big thing is now they have no first round pick next year. So very interesting to me.

So if Jameis ends up not being the guy, what happens next year? I don't know. That's why I kind of think it's fascinating. You know, you mentioned people still talk about the 30 interceptions. Well, I watched every single one of them, Catherine, because I was covering the Buccaneers at the time. So I watched every single one of them up until the very last one,

which was actually a pick six in overtime to end the season. It was just beautiful. I mean, it could not have ended more. Can't write that any better. You just truly can't. I've always said J not have ended more. Can't write that any better. You just truly can't. I've always said Jameis Winston is the most entertaining ticket in sports. I mean, think whatever you want of him.

He's the most entertaining ticket in sports. So, you know, obviously Sean Payton is gone now, and you mentioned kind of where this team might be. Are they going to trade for a quarterback that they think might be a little bit more of a rebuild for them, or maybe go for an offensive tackle to immediately replace Teron Armstead. But where do you think this team believes they are? Because Sean Payton is out, but Dennis Allen, Pete Carmichael, those guys have been there for a long time since.

So it's not like a lot is necessarily changing. Do they still believe that they can be in the hunt for maybe not a division title with the Buccaneers, but a playoff spot and be a playoff team? Are they really looking to get these wins this year as opposed to using these two first-round picks as more rebuilding tools? I think the Saints fully believe it's possible for them to win this year. I think maybe things have changed a little bit with Tom Brady coming back. I think that they were pretty happy that he wasn't as was,

were many teams, but you know, looking around the division, the Falcons have a lot of issues, the Panthers have issues. So I think the same thing, Hey, we can still compete.

I mean, they look at it as they probably should have been in the playoffs last year. They had every single thing go wrong that could possibly go wrong. One of the biggest being, they thought they were going to have Michael Thomas and all of a sudden he doesn't play. That's their best receiver. All of a sudden their kicker, well, let's just come back and does it.

And some people might not think that was a big deal, but I think a lot of games actually came down. There's games they could have won if they'd had well, let's. So those are big things. And then the COVID game. So they think, Hey, we were, we probably should have been in the playoffs and maybe we could have made a run. If we had been in the playoffs, we started four quarterbacks. So I think that's their mindset. I think, I think they can compete this year. Their defense still should be very good.

Even with Malcolm Jenkins retiring, the big thing is the offense. They need Jameis to play well. They need their receivers to play well. They had no receivers last year, and I think their offense was, I guess, somewhat of a disaster. I was trying to think of how to say it nicely, but honestly, I mean, watching that Bucs game, they won, but that was painful. So with all that being said, yeah,

they're probably right around where they were last year. They have a few more players healthy. I think that there's still like a middle of the road team who could probably make a run. And I think that's what they believe. Catherine, looking at this roster,

it's really good on paper. I mean, especially you said it with the defense. It's really easy to pick out the holes. It simply seems like another wide receiver. And we know the glaring one at left tackle with Teron Armstead going to Miami. Do they look at this situation as, and in this guest mock draft, we've obviously had a tackle come off the board to the Saints,

but they've had an anchor at left tackle. They've had a top three left tackle in the league for a long time now. Is there any chance that they can even get more aggressive and move up for one of the top tackles that are projected to go in the top 10? Or do they think we have somebody on the roster that we think can get by along with a rookie if we sit and wait? Where is the approach to address such a glaring hole there? I think they have a young player that could have potential in Landon Young, but he only played one game and then he was hurt halfway through the game. So all that's all there is right now. There's potential. And he's, he and Ryan Ramchak are the only tackles on the roster, I believe.

So it's not just a hole, like as you said, like it's a, it's a glaring hole. Yeah. So I think in some way it's gotta be addressed in the draft. It would be a very Saints move, I think, to move up and get one of the top tackles and then surprise everyone who thought they were only doing it to get a quarterback. But people who think that that would be a stupid move just don't understand how important it is to have a left tackle in the future. I think it would be a great move, personally. I mean, I would understand it. I really would.

I mean, you, you don't, they got lucky with your own arm set or had really, really good. We got lucky and had great scouting on him and got him in the middle of the draft. And he ended up being fantastic for them,

but, and they've had, they've had a lot of success with the middle rounds in their offensive line. Actually, they don't really draft offensive linemen in the first round that much, but they did get Ram check and he's been great. They had Anders Pete, middle rounds in their offensive line. Actually, they don't really draft offensive linemen in the first round that much. They did get Ramchak and he's been great. They had Anders Peet, but I don't think Anders Peet ended up being what they wanted him to be based on where they drafted him.

So they don't do it a lot. But if the guy is there and they think, hey, that's our guy for the next decade, then why not move to get him? Well, we've got Trevor Penning off the board to the Saints. Nick Underhill took him at number 16 there so here at number 19 if the board falls the way that it has here it sounds like we're still sticking offense but where would you be going for the New Orleans Saints in this mock draft here well it's kind of funny considering we just spent all this time talking about alignment but you know I would go right receiver here. I've picked Chris a lot of it many

times for the saints when we come up to these mock drafts. And I think what the receivers it's kind of pick you, who do you like around that spot? And I think there's a lot of options. I personally liked that pick. I think he would fit in really nicely next to Michael Thomas. It seems like they already have a relationship and get along which is really key especially since thomas hasn't been around much the last two years and i think everyone knows the roller coaster with that um but yeah it's someone that can come in and play right away i mean as i said with thomas without thomas they desperately need wide receiver help they no longer have a hall of fame quarterback that can elevate these receivers to to being better than

they are if that makes sense i feel like drew breeze kind of elevated everyone in the room and we don't have that anymore you have to spend the draft capital or the free agency money to go get those top tier wide receivers because you don't have a quarterback going to make them better um so i'll actually i just did a mock draft and uh pinning and a lot they were my two picks and so that's why i'm going with the lave now see it's all working out there we go that that's beautiful i love it i love it you mentioned michael thomas and connor and i actually talked about this on the show i can't remember if it was last week the week before we talked about him as potentially a guy who might be moving right we saw tyreek hill move we saw uh davante adams move and we're like

oh maybe he could be the next guy out because he hasn't been super happy in new orleans but then we looked at his contract and we realized it's not exactly the easiest contract to move where are where is the team and michael thomas at this point in their relationship well i thought the second they restructured that contract that meant they were keeping him around because then it made it basically impossible to move him i think things are actually really good now um or they're on the way to being good it seems like if you go look at his social media you know all he does is say nice things about the saints and that certainly wasn't the case last summer dennis allen flew out personally to california to talk with them and i think he tried to play it off as he does that with everyone.

He's been around a long time, but it's just different. He's been on the defensive side of the ball. He hasn't probably had that many interactions with Michael Thomas, and he admitted that. But so I asked him that at the owner's meetings, and he said, no, Thomas was the only one he flew out to personally meet with. So he said it wasn't clearing the air. Obviously, I don't know what their conversation entailed,

but it does things like it does seem like things are good right now. Now, whether that lasts or not, I don't know. It does seem like he's still going through the rehab process and he's still getting healthy. Uh, saints actually, you know, they opened their off season program early because of a new coach. So there's going to be OTAs before we know it. And I guess we'll see if he participates, but it has been a long time since we've seen a healthy Michael Thomas. You have to go all the way back to September, 2020 and that season opener,

which is crazy. You know, he played through the ankle, um, a lot during 2020, but he hasn't been fully healthy in two years. So, um, really excited to see what that might look like. Connor, I know that we kind of joke around about the Saints receiving group, but look, a healthy Michael Thomas and a Chris Olave right there with Jameis' mentality throwing him the ball. That's a lot of stats and probably a lot of scores there for New Orleans there. Absolutely love it. The Olave fit is tremendous.

A guy that gets open, he could do it at all three levels. We've seen him win vertically. There's no route polish needed when he gets there. He can come in and really be a guy right away for them. So I think Catherine is all over it. And if Michael Thomas comes back refreshed, healthy, right mindset, that's a really nice number one and two for Jameis in this offense that absolutely needed the help at wide receiver all right there we go at number 19 it's chris

olave off the board that gives the saints a package of trevor penning and chris olave go follow her on twitter cat underscore tarot thank you so much for joining the guest mock draft with us go go read all of her work at the athletic too i wanted to make sure i got it in there captain does such an incredible job covering that team. Captain, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on guys. All right, here we go. Rounding out the top 20 for the guest mock draft series.

It is the Pittsburgh Steelers. Who knows what the Steelers are going to be picking at 21. It's all said and done. I'm sure we're going to get into that discussion with our guest, Christopher Carter. He is a multi reoccurring guest here on the guest mock draft series. And it's because he brings the knowledge. He brings the heat. Chris, thank you so much for joining us here again,

a host of the locked on Steelers podcast. Forgot to mention that. Forgot to give you your props there, but appreciate it, buddy. Thanks for having me guys. It's always fun to talk mock drafts when it comes to the Steelers. There you go. There you go. So, all right, let's not to uh not to open up old wounds but I think I gotta talk about this you had the Ben Roethlisberger farewell season last year and it just it felt like every week everybody who was outside of Pittsburgh was like what are they doing why are they making them what are they why do they keep doing this to themselves so I'm I curious, before the year even started,

with Roethlisberger coming back for a final year and then obviously getting into how the year was going, how he wasn't really able to do the same things that he used to be able to do, what was it like kind of watching that season, covering that season, and where the Pittsburgh Steelers ultimately are now with the quarterback position? It was more of a situation where, like, you know, a lot of fans didn't get away, but it was more of a situation where like, you know, a lot of fans didn't feel that way, but it was more of a situation where you're covering the team.

It's like, you also have to understand where they were kind of pinned into because it wasn't necessarily just their decision of that season. It was the decision to give him an extension shortly before he tore his, his elbow. And that, and that took him out of the 2019 season. The problem with, with, if the Steelers had tried to move on from Ben Roethlisberger one, you would have been stuck with a ton of dead,

a dead cap space that year anyways. And then you would have been paying basically for two quarterbacks to play, but then two also, they wanted to give the guy a proper send off. They wanted it to be done and they found a way to compete and get to the playoffs and get some of those young guys experience of the taste of the playoffs in doing so, as well as sweeping two of the teams in their division. I looked at it as more of a situation like, hey, we got to go through this. Let's see what happens. Let's see who emerges. If some of these offensive line guys come up, they didn't.

They liked what they saw in Najee Harris. They love what they saw to Pat Frymouth. Now they want to see if Stephon Tewitt can get back and if they can sort of start to repair some things in the first step of the post Ben Roethlisberger era. So Chris, I look at this team right now and there's so much noise around quarterback and I'm sure we're going to get to that in this conversation, but getting away from the obvious, what is maybe an underrated need on the Steelers that you see people always missing? And it might not be the first round selection, but you look at it at it and go man that's an area that they have to come out of the draft much much better for this team to survive I really think cornerback is something that people shouldn't overlook with this team when you look at how yes they brought back a

Keller Witherspoon yes they went and got Levi Wallace yes they have Cam Sutton but you need a true CB1 on this roster, especially when you're about to be going up against Jamar Chase for the next 10 years with Joe Burrow throwing him the ball. You need someone who you can put on the outside and has a good chance to become that potential number one cornerback who locks down receivers, plays really well in man coverage. You can leave him out there in solo coverage,

and he's going to be physical, aggressive, and play wide receivers in a way that's going to allow you to say hey we he'll erase that part of the field for us and we'll let the rest of the rest of the team work i think this team has a lot of cb2s on the roster they need a cb1 you know and yes offensive line still a still a still a factor quarterback still a factor there they really only have two wide receivers on the one on the roster with considerable experience all of that is in play but cornerback i think needs to still be a focus for this team to build moving forward you mentioned quarterback there and i want to hone in on that a little bit as of right now i think mitch trubisky is slated to be the starter and for as much as the guys in buffalo praise what mitch trubisky was for them last year as a backup

he didn't play it was josh allen who was playing and so he might have done all of the little things right behind the scenes but he didn't play in any games and so maybe he's in a better headspace as the former number two overall pick maybe he could have a bounce back but where are the Steelers right now do you think when it comes to that quarterback position how confident are they right there because we've also heard of course the rumors mike tomlin loves malik willis you know the the pittsburgh connection with kenny pickett there do you think it's more likely than not that this ends up being a selection of quarterback for the pittsburgh sealers whether it's here at 20 or maybe somewhere higher in the draft if they want to get aggressive

i just don't see this as the year of them making an aggressive move at quarterback if malik willis falls to them at 20 they'll do a dance and they'll go get him i just don't see that happening i think there's too many teams are going to want to take the quarterback but what i see that the rest of the quarterback class can he pick it and listen i covered pit football i saw this man do the fake slide in person when I was in Charlotte thinking what the heck was that just like the rest of the country did but but I and I love Kenny Pickett's leadership you know there's several things about Pitt's season where he was the guy when they lost to Western Michigan that said no more of this we're not losing anymore these type of games and that got everyone else on point if you're drafted Kenny Pickett you want the

leadership you want the ability to see the field, but he doesn't have the cannon arm that you want in your future superstar quarterback. He's a little bit older than they like. The Steelers aren't going to take him. They want guys that are either 20, 21, 22 in that range. So I take Kenny Pickett off. Desmond Ritter's an interesting prospect.

I still just see this isn't the year for them to make that move a quarterback unless that primo number one guy which they see in malik willis falls to them i think that a more a more uh a depth move a move that would more fit what they're trying to do at quarterback because they want to find that air to ben roethlisberger but they don't want to rush into it would be to wait till next year which is a much bigger quarterback class just looking at it right looking at it right now, what it projects to be. And if you fill all the holes in the roster this year, if you fix the offensive line, if the defense can become an elite group and you're sitting there saying, okay, you're okay with the wide receivers,

you're okay with your running game and your defense, then you can say, you know what? We can afford giving up multiple draft picks to move up and get aggressive and go get the quarterback that we think is the guy of the future. I know that Mike Tomlin, he's been visiting all these quarterbacks. He does it every year. Don't ever, don't ever let anyone that phase you. This guy loves pro days. He lives for this part of this part of this year. He loves to travel and meet and talk to these players and get dinners with their coaches and everything. They're not just taking a quarterback just to take a quarterback

this year. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they fell in love with some guy. But I think that they're taking a player who's going to be able to fill an important roster spot and be a pillar player moving forward at a key position to make them more like what the 49ers and the Titans have been of late with so-so quarterback play, but solid defense, solid run game. Let those parts of the game be what carries the Steelers at least for 2022. So Chris, here's one for you. That is so fascinating with the Steelers that has really not as much to do with the players in this draft, but the long-term outlook of this franchise, they've been running an extensive GM search, maybe the most extensive GM search I've ever seen. I mean, they've interviewed double digit

candidates. Uh, I've said for a long time, they have an excellent in-house candidate in Brandon Hunt, a guy that can step in and take over that job. And I don't think they would lose any stride at all. So do you think this potential, I don't want to say definite, potential transition phase also impacts the draft where you're not going to be trading a million picks to come up into the top 10 for a quarterback

or where you kind of just keep things steady and keep building the roster how do you see the gm search impacting how the end of this month goes down well i know some people have said that kevin colbert wants to go out with a bang and he wants to get the quarterback for the future that's not but kevin colbert's mo has never been about making the big splash he wants wants to be able to keep the franchise steady. And that's why I see this being the move, because also guess who's been with them on a lot of these pro day visits. Brandon Hunt.

He's been going on. I know there's this extensive search and they've talked to Lewis Riddick and everybody else. It's all smokescreen. I'm telling you, they're picking, they're picking Brandon Hunt. Just, just my read on the thing. This is a Brandon Hunt is a guy who learned from Bill Nunn himself, the man, the scout that went and found all those superstars

in historically black colleges back in the 70s that built the super stealers that won four Super Bowls in six years back then. He learned under him. He's been Kevin Colbert's right hand man. He spent time outside the organization, came back to it. All the things line up for him being the guy that kind of replaces Colbert, along with Omar Khan kind of taking a step up as more of a financial wizard that he is and getting a sort of a promotion there,

but Hunt still being the personnel guy. Now, how that impacts their decisions, I see Kevin Colbert saying, I don't want to bankrupt Brandon's first-ever NFL draft next year. He's going to be on the process with me. I want us to be steady. We could get some really important young pieces that can be, you know, under contract for four or five years. And when their, their, their contracts are up, then we're saying, okay, they're 24, 25 years old. You, if you like them, keep them around and you got them for the, for the rest of their prime.

If you don't, okay. Recycle them. But that's why I see this being a draft. They don't get aggressive. They don't go up and go get, you go up and go get Malik Willis at seven or something like that. They're staying right at 20. If they trade up, they might trade up three to four spots if Jordan Davis starts to creep down to them. So this is a good segue into you talked about corner being a potential need for them. You mentioned the need for a CB1 in this draft that they can get one, but who knows?

I mean, we've got three cornerbacks off the board, so I don't think that you're going to be going there. And with this selection, we'll get your pick in a second, but who do you think they'll consider? Because we so often do so many mock drafts where we just go, okay, the Steelers are taking a quarterback. Either we're going to have them trading up for Malik Willis, or if Kenny Pickett falls to them,

we'll just have Kenny Pickett going at 20, and it'll be like all right don't have to worry about the stealers like you don't really have to put a lot of brain power to it but i think this would be fantastic for our listeners to hear from you who you think some other targets might be because if they're not going to trade up for willis i agree with you they're probably not going to get him because i think he's going to go a lot higher than that. So if they're sticking to 20, you mentioned corner, but what are some other positions or maybe specific players you think they might really be interested in? You know, I really thought for a while,

they were going to go interior offensive line. I thought Zion Johnson was a shoo-in of a pick, but when they went and got James Daniels and they really kind of see, they really seem like they're kind of like, okay, we're okay with our interior offensive line because they also, they're bringing back Kevin Dotson. They have a lot of confidence in. He was injured last year for the most part.

So I see that being something that I think they might address it, but later in the draft, it won't be as much of a first-round pick. I think offensive tackle, as you saw, there's just too many of those guys flying off the board in the early part of the first round. They're not going to get there. But safety is another position I can see them addressing. And I know there's a lot of talk in Steeler Nation right now about,

can they get the honey badger? Can they get the honey badger? And I'm like, even if they don't, they can go get Terrell Edmonds. He's still sitting there right now. And even if they do, I really think with Terrell Austin, the new defensive coordinator who's been a secondary coach, who's worked closely with Minka Fitzpatrick, I've seen so many practices where as soon as Minka Fitzpatrick and Terrell Evans were done with their reps, they'd walk right to him and they'd just start talking to Terrell Austin

like the rest of the practice and just going over things. I really think Terrell Austin wants to get athletic guys in the secondary to make this a turnover unit, to make this a group that's really good at going after the ball, creating, making those plays in the ball once in the air and creating some of those turnovers. So also don't be afraid. Don't,

don't be surprised if the Steelers are taking an early look at safety. I really like Lewis scene. I know Kyle Hamilton's going to be gone. There's no question about that, but I really like Lewis scenes tape from, from Georgia. He's fast. It's like a Mack truck can, can make plays on the ball.

Guys like that are game changers for the Steelers. And I'm telling you, I'm really struggling not picking him because I know some of them are going to say, ah, he should be going later. But I don't know, man. There's some things about that that's secondary right now that I think if they get a primo guy out there, it's going to make a big difference.

All right, Chris, let's put you on the clock. Then we've, we've heard it. You've been excellent. We've heard corner. We've heard O-line. We've heard a little dabble on quarterback. Now we've heard safety. You are on the clock with the 20th overall pick. The board is broken in a pretty interesting way right now. There's some serious talent out there. What are you going with for the Pittsburgh Steelers? Man, y'all killing me. I really want to meet some James Williams.

I really want to meet some Jordan Williams. It's not me. It's not me. I really want to Jordan Davis. I'll tell you what. We did a locked on mock draft and I was able to get Jordan Davis at 20. I'm like, what you doing this time? So, okay.

I know this may seem unconventional. I know I'm going to get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm quadruple dipping at the cornerback position and going to get an Andrew Booth Jr. Oh, okay. All right. I'm going for this guy because he's physical. He knows how to use his length. He plays the ball well when it's in the air.

Yes, he's gotten burned. He needs to become a better zone defender. But I think in Terrell Austin's system, they're going to be able to find a way to put him out there, let him handle his side, give him a little bit of backup on occasion with Micah Fitzpatrick and whoever else they wind up at safety. But Andrew Booth Jr., I think, is a potential CB1 who develops over the next few years.

He's young enough that you can carry him into the future, and there's no pressure on him to be the superstar right now because, again, they solidified their roster by getting, by keeping Witherspoon, by getting Levi Wallace, by keeping Cam Sutton. But Justin Lane, you're not feeling him as a youngster. You need a new young body. This could be a guy that if he lines up well,

if he's used to taking on top receivers in the ACC, we saw him do it a lot at Clemson, I could really see this guy being the boost to the Steelers' defense. And it pains me because Lewis Seed, I think, is a truly interesting prospect who I would reach a little bit just to pull up and slap into the Steelers' secondary and let them run some three safety sets. But this team needs a CB1 for the future.

Like I said, Jamar Chase is there. They're going to be facing all these AFC quarterbacks. I think they need to have a truly athletic secondary, and I think Andrew Booth Jr. is the guy to help them the way the board falls this way. Hey, corner is a premium position, you know, and it's only getting more and more premium, like Chris said, when these teams just have these arms races of incredible wide receivers.

Sometimes it's two, three, four deep. You got to have the good corners to be able to cover them connor what do you think about this this makes it i like that chris brought in something that is maybe viewed as unconventional in mock drafts right now but people are forgetting what andrew booth probably because he's been hurt and hasn't been able to work out this is a former five-star player yes you said this is a pretty you know scheme diverse player i do agree. The zone coverage needs work, but you can see a situation where if you are flipping coverages, he's somebody that can hold up in both.

He's got the length. He's got the downfield speed. And it's how we started the show, right? I asked you, what is an underrated need for the Pittsburgh Steelers that nobody's talking about? Nobody's putting in the mock drafts. And you opened it up with saying people are overlooking this cornerback group. So you stuck with your analysis from the very beginning. And I like it a lot. There we go. Chris, this, I mean, there was nobody else that we could have for the Pittsburgh Steelers. You know that I appreciate it, man. I appreciate the

heat, the knowledge, everything, man. I like the Andrew Booth pick. I think he is an underrated player in this class. And look at the Steelers need secondary. We've seen this over the last couple of years, the best teams, they get loaded at secondary to cover it as these other teams load up on wide receivers. You got to be able to cover some of these guys. So follow them on Twitter at Carter critiques, follow all of his great work at locked on Steelers.

Chris, thank you so much for joining us, man. Thanks guys. All right, there we go. 20 picks down in the guest mock draft series, but that's not all from this series this week.

On Thursday, we got somebody, a very special guest. I'm not going to ruin it. You guys got to tune in to make sure that you hear it. Very special guest on with us to recap the top 20 of this mock draft, as well as get picks 21 and 22 for the New England Patriots and the Green Bay Packers. That's on Thursday. We'll see you guys then. Bye.