Nightcap - Nightcap - Hour 1: Warriors take Game 1 over Timberwolves + Haliburton Game-Winner deflates Cavaliers

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Shannon Sharpe, Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson, and Ryan Hollins react to Round 2 of the NBA Playoffs featuring, Stephen Curry and the Golden State Warriors beating Anthony Edwards and the Minnesota Timberwolves in Game 1,  Tyrese Haliburton's Game-Winner as the Indiana Pacers taking a 2-0 lead over Donavan Mitchell and the Cleveland Cavaliers, Nikola Jokic and the the Denver Nuggets taking a 1-0 lead over Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and the Oklahome City Thunder, and much more!01:47 - Introduction04:00 - Warriors v T-Wolves24:10 - Pacers v Cavs50:00 - Thunder v Nuggets(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.)#Volume #ClubSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company. The podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi. We dive into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There are so many stories out there. And if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for joining us for another episode of Nightcap. For the first time in NBA history, all the road teams won game one. We've had two of four. We've had three of four. We've never had all four win, and that's what happened. And a couple of them won in dramatic fashion. We're going to get to that in just a moment. Thank you guys for joining us again. I am your favorite unk, Shannon Sharp.

My partner and co-host, the Liberty City legend, the Bengal Ring of Fame honoree, the Pro Bowler, the All-Pro. That's Chad Ochocinco-Johnson. And our special guest tonight to talk about basketball is a 10-year NBA vet, Pasadena native, UCLA alum, a 7-foot-plus high jumper. Yes, there he is, Mr. Ryan Hollins. Ryan, thank you. And he calls games for the Houston Rockets. Ryan, thank you for joining us tonight. We can't wait to get your input on a lot of these games.

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Go get your tickets now. Right? We're going to get right into it. Tonight, the Warriors beat the Wolves. A large part without Steph. Steph left the game early in the second quarter with a hamstring injury. Did not return. The Timberwolves tonight, Naz Reed.

Naz Reed was 3 of 7 from 3. Everybody else was 2 of 22. And they did not get off to the best start shooting the basketball. And as Chris Finch said, our transition decisions making was diabolical. He said the poor shooting affected their confidence and overall play. It starts with Anthony Edwards. You can see the light go out. And for a little while, now he did get it going in the second half. He had 23 points, 14 rebounds. It just took him 22 shots to get those 23 points. And that's not nearly good enough because outside of Ant-Man, Julius Randle was 4 of 11.

Jaden Daniel was 6 of 12. Rudy Gobert was 4 of 7. Mike Conley got some great cardio in tonight. But Devin Chisholm, 3 of 11. McKeel Walker Alexander had 14 minutes. He got some great cardio in. And even Shannon Jr., he got cardio in. He only got two minutes on the bike, Ocho, but he got some great cardio in, and even Shannon Jr., he got cardio in. Only got two minutes on the bike, Ocho, but he got a little cardio in, so he only have to do 18 minutes on the bike after

the game because he did get two minutes of cardio. Ryan, I'm going to start with you on this. You watched this game, and you was like, okay, the Warriors might be in trouble. Steph going out, and it looked like he had it going. It looked like he was headed toward the monster night. He had 13 points in about 13 minutes, so it looked like it was going to be one of those nights. Draymond got off, hit four of his five first threes,

but you know what? I'll let Draymond have that. I just don't want Steph, but he'll get going. What did you like about what you saw from the Warriors tonight? Man, the first thing, he could have pulled that hamstring on Sunday.

Last Sunday, he could have pulled that hamstring and sunday last sunday he could have pulled that hamstring we'd be having a whole different conversation now okay let's get that out there right now uh first and foremost but man i don't think people understand and give golden state the credit defensively they are sound they're smart steve kerr will get out there and switch defenses i saw stuff i've never seen in a series against houston against our guys he ran three two zone he ran one never seen in the series against Houston, against our guys. He ran 3-2 zone. He ran 1-3-1 in the NBA. That's something you never see to take away the elbows.

And he doesn't mind switching stuff. He'll go play big. He'll go small. And right now, one thing he's doing, he's daring Rudy Gobert. He's saying, I'm going to put Jimmy Butler. I'm going to put Raymond. We're not putting a guy above 6'8 on you.

And he's really challenging Gobert to score the ball inside of paint. Now, against Shindon and Steven Adams, he went big. You saw a lot of Quinton Post. You didn't see Quinton Post tonight. You saw Pavan Looney and Draymond. You saw both those guys

in the lineup. I'm going to make this very clear. They're not going to win this series without Steph Curry. He's going to have this very clear. They're not going to win this series without Steph Curry. He's going to have to get back depending how bad that hamstring is. And I've never seen Steph go down. And it's funny, man. We were talking about this the other day

with Steph. If you watch him play, I don't know. He must run three to four to five miles. Every possession, he's running. So finally, that hamstring, you know, went out. But at the end of the day, Chad, we'll see a reality where Anthony Edwards struggles that bad offensively.

They've got to find ways to get him going. And ultimately, in game one, it was a lot of rust. The positive, when you play seven-game series, you're fresh, you're ready, the juices juices are gone but i saw rust from minnesota oh joe what do you think about what you saw because like you uh he said i don't think ant-man hit a jump shot all night long everything that he got was going to the basket or it was from the free throw line he was terrible from the three-point line what was he from the three-point line oh he did make one he was one of five from the three he was four or five from the free throw line nine or 22 from the floor overall he did have 14

rebounds but the thing that they didn't allow him to do they made him incredibly inefficient and they didn't let you look at his assist total two remember when he played the lakers 11 assists eight nine assists so not only is he getting his points he's allowing everybody else to get involved yeah tonight golden state did a great job of limiting him making it hard for him to get anything he couldn't get anything from the jump shot the three-point line he got some driving baskets in the second half but it wasn't nearly nearly enough what did you what so you tell me would you like ant-man what is it that you didn't see that you want to see in order for them to win this series moving forward?

I mean, actually going forward, the Wolves are going to have to have Ant-Man has to be on. He has to be on fire. He has to be the leader and go out there and not only facilitate, but take a game over. You know, it is only game one. And honestly, from what I saw, I knew Steph was getting hot when he was playing. But when he went out and he tweaked that hamstring a little bit, I'm like, okay, this is the perfect opportunity for the Wolves to get back in the game

or at least make it a close game. And that's what I thought it would be towards the end. I thought they would have an opportunity to come back, but obviously Jimmy Butler and Jermon Green kind of led the way. Buddy Hill helped as well in making sure that didn't happen. But he got going in that second half.. But he got going in that second half. Yeah, he got going in the second half. It's only game one.

It's only game one. So I'm expecting Anthony Edwards and the rest of that crew collectively to have a better game, especially Ant. Ant-Man got to think everybody's going to feed off his energy and how he plays, so everything starts with him. I mean, you think about it. Minnesota scored 11 points in the second quarter.

Warriors almost outscored them in the second quarter. The Warriors scored 26 points in the second quarter. They had 31 points at the half. Minnesota did. I don't know if I've ever seen a team be this poor in an entire quarter, 12-minute quarter. Ryan, I don't know if I've ever seen a team be this poor in an entire quarter, 12-minute quarter. Ryan, I don't know. When's the last time you see somebody score just 11 points in a quarter

in today's game? Now, maybe when the game was physical hell. I mean, I remember games being 73-68, 70-65. But in today's game, when it's up and down, I don't know if I've seen this anemic of a quarter from a team well this is this is the thing that you got to understand you must have missed our series man they defend and in golden state more than anybody they don't funnel you into a big because the biggest drain lock they just square you off and they keep you in front it's old school basketball

and they force a contest and then you bring Jimmy Butler in. Jimmy can play both ways. They got size and they're switchable and then, you know, we're coming with guys off the bench, but they're elite because it's a different style than you're used to seeing. And even when Curry's out there, Curry's put on so much muscle. He's

stronger. They're deep into their scatterport. If there's a weakness that you have, you can argue they may be the smartest team in the NBA defensively. So it's not a surprise. And on the other end, this is my challenge to Anthony Edwards. Now, he's going to shoot the ball better just by his God-given ability. When he learns how to truly play the game and manipulate defenses, he is going to be unstoppable. And what do I mean by that? Luka Doncic can't jump over a phone book, but he can manipulate

defenses. You know what I'm saying? Luka Doncic is going to find a bad matchup. He's going to pull you into a pick and roll, use the angle and hit it. Etlin playing on all heart right now. It's all heart. But when he learns how to run the pick and roll, find the poor matchup, see how they're playing him,

you can't guard him. You know, so he's made strides and the game is going to come so much more easier to him. But again, that was Russ. And like Chad said, Chad, it's almost impossible. We don't expect him to go into the next game and play that bad. And you're going to have to see, you know,

here's the problem, Chad. I don't know how y'all both feel about this. Now you're going to have to see, you know, here's the problem. I don't know how y'all both y'all feel about this. Now you're going to have to ask Jimmy Butler to do a lot more than he's been doing. Jimmy Butler has been playing heavy minutes, but he's been saving himself. He had 11 rebounds tonight. He had eight assists tonight, as you mentioned,

because he, first of all, Draymond is a point, whatever you call him. He's a point center point forward, whatever you want to call it, because he initi first of all, Draymond is a point, whatever you call him. He's a point center, point forward, whatever you want to call him. Because he initiates a lot of their offense. That's not what Curry does. Curry spends his time being in perpetual motion,

running from side to side, coming off picks, coming off spin downs, and things of that nature. He's not really initiating their offense. That role goes to Jimmy Butler and Draymond Green. So now with Curry being out, you're probably going to ask Jimmy to do a little bit more of the scoring. He can't be as much as a facilitator because he had Curry taking a lot of that scoring role. Now, if Curry's going to be out, you're going to ask him to do more.

He's more than capable of doing that because we saw him for a number of years in Miami do some of everything. Go get your 50. If you need 15, 16 rebounds, go get you that. You need double-digit assists, he can get you that. And so I agree with you, Ryan. I think he's going to have to be more of everything. He's going to have to be that guy,

what we saw LeBron be for a lot of those years. Maybe lead the team in points, rebounds, assists. Hell, maybe steal block shots because he has that ability. It's going to be very interesting to see how the Wolves respond to this because they had it fairly easy. For the most part, look, the Lakers would always choke it off and they would get some confidence going. And the next day, you know, Ant-Man get hot.

Everybody catch five shooting a three. They was five of 29 tonight. Now, they're not – they made the fifth most threes, but they're not, they weren't a great three-point shooting team against the Lakers. They just got hot in spells

and that was good enough to carry them over. Ant-Man did what he did, but you got Jane Daniels averaging 22, 23 points a game and you see tonight he had 12. You had Julius Randle giving you 22 and six and five.

He had 18 tonight. So everybody played below their average against the Lakers. And I don't know if this effort tonight, they're going to have to find something because I like what you said, Ryan. The Warriors are a team.

They don't beat themselves. They make you beat them. So if you think they're going to make silly mistakes on you by turning the ball over, being caught out of position, you don't see them pointing to that. Bro, I thought you had that. I thought you was supposed to show. I thought you was going to hedge. I thought we was going to switch this.

You don't see them doing a lot of that. They know exactly what they're going to do according to what you're going to do. And if you beat them, you beat them. But they're not going to make those silly ticky-tack mistakes that you're like, damn, well, you know, we made a lot of mistakes out there. That's not what they do. Yeah. Well, one thing also I want to touch on is you say when you beat the Warriors,

you got to beat them. They're not going to beat themselves. And we talk about Anthony Edwards and that cast collectively having a better shooting game and shooting above what their percentage is to even have a chance to win. But are we even have a chance to win. But are we even worried a little bit about the Warriors? You know, with Curry's hamstring being out,

going into game two? Or do you think Jimmy Butler, Buddy Hill, and Draymond can carry the load? Hey Chad, I'm going to tell you one thing. As fatigued as he is at his age, he might be back game three or four. Now the goal right now,

if you're Golden State and Steve Kerr, and you know this, you stole that game. Yes. So now you can rest. I can steal a rest game. Yes. Okay.

When Jimmy Butler went out against Houston, they were able to rest because they won a game and they were able to get him back so if you're Golden State you're saying if we can get him back by game three or four and not rush it because we stole a game which means

even we just need to get one at home and now we still got a series that's the biggest thing I want to touch on something you said Anthony Edwards wasn't pressured against the Lakers they literally it was man toto-man. Let him play one-on-one. Yeah, he played one-on-one, but he pretty much zoned the weak side

because they don't have the ability to pressure the basketball. Golden State got up and pressured Anthony Edwards. Okay, Gary Payton II is a dog. Okay, he can argue. Draymond can argue. So they showed bodies, and they're saying, stick it to somebody else. You know, Nas Reed was wide open.

McDaniels was wide open for three because I can help in recovery to those guys. They don't have a knockdown shooter if it's not Mike Conley in that situation. Yeah, because you look at Julius Randle, 0 for 3. Jay McDaniels, 0 for 3. Mike Conley, 0 for 2. Anthony Edwards, 1 for 5.

Dante DiVincenzo, 1 for 7. Alexander Walker, 0 for 3. Mike Conley, 0 for 2. Anthony Edwards, 1 for 5. Dante DiVincenzo, 1 for 7. Alexander Walker, 0 for 2. So, at that point in time, Golden State says, you know what? Hey guys, let's not chase them off the line. Let's leave them at the line. Because they ain't going to be able to throw an ocean anyway. So we're running out of there, getting

out of position. And this is what's surprising a lot of people might not realize. To be a small, small team, Golden State is a great rebounding team. They out-rebounded, they out-rebounded

Minnesota by 10. With Rudy Gobert, with Julius Randle, with Nas Reed, with Ant-Man, with Jaden McDaniels. Let that sink in because if you look at them

side by side, you're like, damn, Rudy Gobert look like Goliath. Julius Randle, 6'9". I mean, the tallest player in their starting lineup is probably Draymond and Jimmy Butler at 6'7".

You got Steph Curry, 6'2", 6'3", maybe. Buddy Hill. But they get you out of position because you're scrambling, trying to run guys off the three-point line. They miss, and they know where the ball, the caramels, and they get the ball. But they're scrappy. They're tenacious.

Go ahead. Go ahead, Ryan. No, Chad, the reason they don't give those rebounds, and we talked about it earlier, they stay on the body. It's hard to beat them off the bounce. And even when you beat them, they stay in the play. So now your body's on bodies. When I can get bodies on bodies and box you out,

it's old school basketball. Steve Kerr coached old school basketball. So that's why they're so dominant on the glass. And then on the other end, here's my fear chat. And I don't know how you feel about this. When Curry's running around, you got to give attention. You got to give two to the ball. That opens up Buddy Hill.

That opens up the other guys. It opens up Jimmy. But even though Jimmy Butler doesn't want to shoot, he got free space. That free space is going to go away. And my key, this is my key ball forward. The Timberwolves are excellent when they can turn you over. They're young. They're athletic. They play off

energy. And Golden State is doing what? Chad, they're holding the basketball. Chad, you watch them golden state is doing what chad they holding the back chad you watch them they hold the basketball you're gonna see them shoot by design and normally in basketball chad you wouldn't want to see this it's almost like a football y'all don't want to play that team that's gonna defend and just hold the ball they hike in the ball the last that's golden state they shooting the ball at five seconds right eight to five seconds every possession so they they push the game out in time yeah that's the thing i mean they're the total they're the total opposite of indiana if you look at indiana they're looking to push tempo or we get it off the rim but you look at it and four dribbles they got somebody if you're not careful they got somebody laying

the ball up in the basket you look at steve curry he says, Steph Curry is day-to-day and will get an MRI tomorrow. Obviously, he's crushed. Buddy Hill, game one, 24 points, five made threes. He's hit 14-3 in his previous two games. And he won them game seven because he caught fire and they didn't have an answer for him. And tonight, the second half, when you saw Minnesota started to make a run,

it was him, boom, boom, boom in the third quarter. And when they cut it, Ryan and Ocho, you remember in the fourth quarter, I think they had got it down to eight. Yeah. He made a two-pointer, and then he came right back down and made a three and pushed it right back to 13, and they really never challenged after that. But Buddy is playing. I mean, look, he could always shoot the ball.

If you look at him where he is now as far as three-pointers, he's headed where Curry was at the same point in time in their careers. Now, I'm not saying he's going to catch Curry. I'm not saying

he's a better shooter. But I'm saying Steph came in and started this revolution or this evolution, whatever term you want to use. And so now guys are coming in and they're getting up

more threes. And so now, I mean, you might're getting up more threes and so now you're going to, I mean you might have when it's all said and done, right, you might have three guys that made, ten guys that made 3,000 threes in a career Yeah I'm going to give you this about

Buddy Hilton and here's the challenge, Chad I don't know if you, I don't know if you're this type of guy, Chad, in your career but Buddy Hilton is not great at being the second or third option. He's the guy that has to get his touches. And Steve Kerr made a genius plan because what he did in that game seven against Houston, he said, we need a third option. And it wasn't going to be Kaminga.

It wasn't Pajipski. And Pajipski's a dog. I like him, man. He Pajipski's a dog. I like him there. He got an old school style of play. But he said, Buddy Hill, play what fits you best. And it paid off. Chad, were you one of those guys? Could you be second?

I know you and TJ were both like, could you play second? Matter of fact, we think about it. No, but Ocho, he might could play second. But you had to get Ocho as like most number one receivers. Get him the ball early, you can have him late. You can't dilly-dally around with him and wait till the second quarter or the third quarter to try to beat him the ball. Give him

a smoke, give him a quick out, give him a slant, let him touch the ball. If you let him touch the ball early, you can have him late. But you're probably gonna lose him if you don't give him the ball till late the second quarter, right before fourth half of the third. Chad, I'm not calling you for the game.

Matter of fact, he needs his touches and you can fix it at a guy who wants to burn it. Like a small example I can think about when I stood on the table when T.O. had the opportunity to come to Cincinnati I told Marvin I told Mike Brown, I said, listen we got to get him in here

I have no problem taking the back seat I have no problem being number two understanding the greatness that's getting ready to come you know into the receiver room

now at that point common goddamn sense this is one of the best of all time I don't care how good I am right now in Cincinnati I'm finna take a back seat

to take to go I'm taking the back seat and I had no problem with it so at some point, obviously, just like you said, at Borkowski and Carson,

they knew to give me my touches early. And the offense ran really well. Hell, but just that year we went 4-12, so we still were sorry. Chad, I'm still mad

at y'all over that. Both of y'all, I'm still mad at y'all over that, okay? I'm still mad at y'all over that 10. I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened that year.

I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company. The podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there, And if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience

is that they feel seen. Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide. And hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the fall of 1986, Ronald Reagan found himself at the center of a massive scandal that looked like it might bring down his presidency. Did you make a mistake in sending arms to Tehran, sir?

No. It became known as the Iran-Contra affair. And I'm not taking any more questions in just a second. I'm going to ask Attorney General. I'm Leon Nafok, co-creator of Slow Burn. In my podcast, Fiasco, Iran Contra, you'll hear all the unbelievable details of a scandal that captivated the nation nearly

40 years ago, but which few of us still remember today. The things that happened were so bizarre and insane, I can't begin to tell you. Please do. To hear the whole story, listen to Fiasco, Iran Contra on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see.

Muhammad Ali was never afraid to express himself loudly and boldly and stays true to form in Ali and Me, an eight-part Audible original. Guided by his own words, this series explores Ali's life and legacy through never-before-heard audio recordings and discussions with those who knew him best. Muhammad had this real sense of his own personal values and principles, things he believed in, his own sense of conviction. Those convictions never wavered. Hosted by Muhammad's wife, Lani Ali, and his close friend, award-winning broadcaster, John Ramsey,

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There's no debate that this is the greatest global sports figure of our lifetime. Listen to Ali and Me, now on Audible. Pacers, still game two in Cleveland. Only three teams have come back down seven in the last minute of a playoff game since 1997. The Thunder did it on May 13, 2014. The Pacers did it April 29, 2025,

which was seven days ago. The Pacers also did it May 6, 2025, which was tonight. Ochoa, we talked about it yeah another six another six guys in double figures you got siakam 12 neesmith 23 turner 23 nimhard 13 halliburton 19 uh mathren 19 you see you don know. You just know it's a committee. Now, you don't know who's going to be the lead, who's going to be the president, who's going to adjourn the meeting, but you know

these guys are going to, and they did an unbelievable job. I believe in a situation like this, Ryan, correct me if I'm wrong. Look, yeah, the other team has to make a lot of mistakes, but in order for you to steal a game with 50 seconds left and you're down by seven, you got to make a lot of mistakes. But in order for you to steal a game with 50 seconds left and you're down by seven, you got to make everything right.

You got to miss a free throw and get a rebound and get an A-1. I mean, you see Matherin, they missed a free throw, he dunked it home. Okay? Now Halliburton, make one. He missed the next one. He get it. Out for a three. Everything that

could have gone wrong for the Cavs, the Cavs struggled all night getting the ball in. There were a couple of times they could have got some violations. And then I don't know what happened. He just threw the ball right to Nemar. Nemar said, I mean, like, thank you very much. But they're in trouble. I think this series is over.

And it's going to be the most epic collapse because a team that won this many games to possibly get swept. I can see them getting swept, Ryan. I think this series is over. And it's going to be the most epic collab because a team that won this many games to possibly get swept. I can see them getting swept, Ryan. I don't know if you see that. You got some glasses on? Put them glasses on so you can see if you can see what I see. Because I tell you, I'm sure you'll see them getting swept.

Hey, Chad. Chad, I called this before I seen it. And this is what's crazy. The Indiana Pacers, the most underrated team in the NBA right now. Yeah. Their team, last year, they

went to the Eastern Conference Finals. Yeah. And everybody said it was for injuries. Listen, man, Rick Harlow, Linhart, McConnell, they got some dogs over there. It's not the sexiest. Okay? They don't got the 40-inch burp. Mastering is athletic.

Siakam's athletic, but other than that, they just are tough, hard-nosed players. And the way that the NBA is played now that it's shifting to, it was a game of athletes, a bunch of three-pass shooting. Now it's a game of toughness and skill. Indiana has toughness and skill. They has toughness and skill.

They moved the basketball, like you talked about, in Halliburton. Hey, man, hold on, man. They need to put some respect on Halliburton's name. They call him the most overrated player in the NBA?

Let me tell you something. From schematically, there's only a handful of guys that can manipulate the game. Chris Paul, I played with Chris. Chris was one of those guys that can do it. In the NBA now, it's LeBron. It's

Luka Doncic and James Harden when he's on his A game. Tyrese Halliburton could manipulate the game. What do I mean by that? He's the guy that can beat you with the pass, and he can beat you with the shot. And when you take one away, he's going to make the correct

play. So we're looking at the stat sheet. He got 19.4 assists in the game and he's got the clutch. He finds a way. It's not the prettiest game. It's not the prettiest. It's the Kevin Martin. He got a little Kevin Martin. But he's a dog and he

finds a way. But Chad, am I crazy to where I called this before it happened? I got it on record. I called it. Am I crazy to say that still is going to outweigh the athletes and the sides? And obviously, give credit to the Cavaliers. They choked the game

up, but they had injuries. They had guys missing. Donovan Mitchell drops 48 points in the game, and at the end of the day, if I'm Donovan Mitchell, I say, I dropped 48. That's all I can do to will my team to win and we couldn't win, we sit.

It's a wrap. Yeah. Yeah. For me, Ocho, I thought the game could have been even closer. I mean, think about it. Siakam had eight shots.

He's one of your, he's your all-star. Yeah. Halliburton had 11 shots. Think about how many of those shots came in the fourth quarter. Yeah.

I'm like, bro, what are y'all doing? I mean, nobody took more. Miles Turner had the most shots. Think about how many of those shots came in the fourth quarter. I'm like, bro, what are y'all doing? I mean, nobody took more. Miles Turner had the most shots. He had 17. They only had 85. They shot almost 52% from the floor. If they take better care of the basketball,

I mean, Nimhard had eight turnovers, so he had almost half of the turnovers. If they do a better job taking care of the basketball, I'm not so sure Cleveland get out to that lead. But Cleveland, as the game got closer, I mean, they were up big, and every time, here come Indiana. Here come Indiana. They go up by 18, 19.

Here come Indiana, wheel it down to nine. They go back up by 13. They cut it back down to seven. I was like, okay, now. Y'all messing around. Y'all, hey, you're playing with fire. Because y'all let them guys, they like, hey, man, we right here. We make a couple of plays.

We get a couple of stops. You know you're getting the huddles. Hey, we make a stop right here. Get a ball back to our offense. Hey, who knows what could happen? And that's what happened. They messed around and let them get close. Hey, and you hit that three-point shot.

It's like, oh, it's a one-point game. Yeah. Uh-oh. And Halliburton got the rebound. Hey, he dri hit that three-point shot. It's like, oh, it's a one-point game. Yeah. Uh-oh. And Halliburton got the rebound. Hey, he dribbled out. He got the matchup that he wanted. Guy was working. Hey, I ain't giving you the three.

If you go to the basket and lay it up and tie it up, I'm not giving you that. I'm not. I'm not. But like I said, Neesmith had 23. He played really well. Four rebounds, three blocks. Miles Turner, 23 points, eight rebounds, five blocks.

Tyrese Halliburton, 19 points, nine rebounds. The game winner. The series shifts to Indy on Friday. You're talking about a team that won, what, 64 games and could possibly get swept. Have we ever had a team win so many games to get swept? Maybe that 94 Supersonics team, they didn't get swept, but they got beat by the eighth seed, the Denver Nuggets.

But to get swept at 64 wins? Mm-hmm. Well, honestly, listen, when you talk about them having 64 wins, you got to remember, you got to remember, tonight they didn't have key contributors. Darius Garland's out. Evan Mobley. DeAndre Hunt is out.

So those 64 wins. Were they out when they had that 20-point lead? Or they just went out once they got the lead and just saved it? They came in injured. They came in injured. They came in injured. So they had a 20-point lead with those guys on the bench, right? Yeah.

But that's why Donovan had 48 because he had to do more. Yeah, yeah. I'll give him that. But,'s see are we surprised that donovan we donovan's had 57 in the playoff game him and jamar murray both had 50 in the playoff game we don't think about how many times he scored 30 in a playoff game i think in five of his seven games with the uh calves he's had at least 30 we know he's a scoring machine but as long as he got how many? Hold up. He had.

He was 15 for 30. 15 for 30. Yeah. I can live with that. Hey, that's sufficient. That's 50%. He didn't shoot the three ball well. And he had nine assists. Yeah.

So he did all he could do. But you can't turn the ball over in situations like that. You can't leave guys open. You just can't make the mistakes. Right. In a situation. You got to listen. You can't leave guys open. You just can't make the mistakes. Right. In a situation. You got, listen, you got to win that game. You can't play.

I don't believe they can play any better, Ryan. With the guys that they have missing, they can't play any better than what they played tonight. And they don't have anything to show for that performance that Donovan gave you. 100%. 100%. And this was Indiana's mindset.

Let me speak to something that you two can't speak to, okay? Y'all was first option. All the players. I was the role player, okay? So let me speak to something that you two can't speak to okay y'all was first option all the way so let me speak to the role players you can give energy you can bring life they played like their backs were against

the wall but as things get tighter you need your stars now Donovan did his job but Darius Garland is the other closer on that team. He's the guy you put the ball in his hands, and he's the playmaker. Things get happen on the back side. So the role

players, the heart was there, but as things got tighter, where were they going to go with the basketball? And Donovan could do too much. So for Indiana, they were patient. They just said, where's your offense going to keep coming from? So, you know, the energy,

the excitement, you know, and when you have a bad go out and you saw this with Golden State, you galvanized behind it. I think when Steph Curry

went out, you know, Draymond Green, known as a non-shooter future, Hall of Famer, by the way, I think Draymond hit three or four straight

three-pointers in a row. So you saw the energy from the role players. But as a role player, when the game was getting tight, I'm looking to Chris Paul. Okay? I'm looking to Paul Pierce. I'm looking to those guys. And they're not on the floor.

We're going, we can only run so much offense. And it's funny. There's a saying. It's not about the X's and O's. It's about the Jimmy's and Joe's. You have to have players in those situations. So no disrespect to the guys on the floor for Cleveland, but Donovan Mitchell alone wasn't enough.

And the thing is, you got a well-oiled machine over there with the Pacers, and they just let it get tighter, let it get tighter, and then they accept their moment. And because they're at home. And the fans, look, when a game, when you have a lead, and all of a sudden it starts to dissipate, the fans can feel that too. Because everything is ooh, ah, ah. No.

And all of a sudden it seemed like the basket had a lid on it. Max Struess played unbelievable tonight. Five of 12 from the three. He ended up taking out from outside the lane and flushing it home. He was hyped. I thought Ty Jerome played well. Merle hit a couple

big threes. Allen had 22-12 with three blocks. But at the end of the day, as that game, you know, you up 20.

And all of a sudden, you look up and there's like 15 seconds. And you only got a three-point lead. You don't feel as good as you once did. lead, you don't feel as good as you once did. Nah. You don't feel as good as you once did. You're like, damn, we

about to let this ish slip away. Check this out, when I played in Dallas. So, Derv, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, a team would have a lead on us and we would go on a road

and we would live for these moments almost. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to insert myself as a role player into these situations. Now, we're going to do this. But the one thing you would say is, oh, they're getting tight. I'm not going to say the words we were saying.

We were saying they're getting tighter and trying to watch and get tight. Those arms, the T-Rex arms come out, the pressure mouse, and you just looking for one crack heck i look man i'm gonna call it for what it is the reason i'm so passionate about giving lebron the respect i give him is because we had been down three one lebron was not lebron at that point he wasn't king jane he was calling himself king jane but he wasn't king james yet

and what he did coming into boston with our team and our guys and we kept waiting for that moment for lebron to shrink we can't we have way figured out with all due respect to the way and way we had great avery was doing the excellent job we had him figured out and lebron took over in that game and he willed his team to victory on the championships and the rest is the rest is history from there. But Chad, have you been in a situation where you know you're saying, give us the ball back. It's game. Give us the ball back.

It's game. You know what, if anything, especially a situation like that, where it's, where it's a pressure situation and it gets tight, Unk would be, would be better suited to say that because he's been,

he's been in bigger games. He's been in bigger games, you know, playoff. Oh yeah. He's been in bigger games. You know, playoff. Oh, yeah. We had one of the best pressure-packed quarterbacks in NFL history. Absolutely. And that's what he was known for.

So we knew if the defense could get a stop. It didn't matter if we're down 14 with five minutes to go and they had the ball. We got a stop. We're going to go down and score quickly. Defense, get us one more stop. Get us off the field. We get that ball back, oh, we're going to get a touchdown to beat you.

We're going to find a way to beat you because I've been in that moment too many times. And they know it. See, here's the thing is, is that when you have somebody and they know it, they know what you know. God. Did you hear what Atlanta, even when Atlanta had that 23-point lead,

I think it was Sanu was on the sideline. He's like, hey, man, that's Brady over there. They know what's over there. You are 23-8, and you still worried about the man. Yeah. Because you know. Let me ask both of y'all this. What's it going to take for Tyrese Halliburton to get that respect?

Because he just did it to Giannis. He didn't come out of the East, but he got like, what's it going to take for Halliburton? And this was league-wide. They chanted overrated at the game. He addressed it in the press and said, overrate that. What's it going to take for him, in your mind, Chad,

to get that respect? And is there anybody that you knew that was getting that overrated tag and what they do to get over it? You know, that's crazy.

I think it might be, it might actually be where he's playing. I really think it might be where he's playing. You know, and outside of that,

that's it. And obviously, he's an all-star and then the group might be where he's playing, you know, and outside of that, that's it. And obviously he's an all-star. And then the group of players that he's combined with when it comes to all-star, his game isn't pretty. It isn't pretty like everyone else's. He ain't Steph. He ain't Luka. He don't play above the rim like Ja. No.

Yeah. So, you know what I'm saying? So he's not going to be what all the guys that I mentioned, James Harden, like you said, James can go get you 50. Steph can get you 50. Luka, you know Luka. You've seen Luka get you a 60-20 triple-double. Yeah.

Ja can play elevated above the rim. So, you look at the guys that play the position, I don't know how many guys you're taking. I mean, you might take him over Ja, but are you taking him over Steph? No, you're not taking him over Luka. Oh, are you taking him over Shea? I got to hear that.

You said you're taking him over Ja. Halliburton or Ja? You said you're taking Halliburton. No, but that's what I'm saying. I'm saying of the guys that I mentioned, you're not taking them over Shea. You're not taking them over Luka. You're not taking them over Luka. You're not taking them over Steph.

So the only reason I would say you probably take them over Jha is because of Jha's injury history. Because I can't count on Jha. If you take injury history out, and you look at the team. I can't because he injured half the time. Similar teams, though. Right.

Did you say that? He got Ask Al Siakam, Memphis. He got Triple J. Triple J? Pretty similar. I know you can't take out injury history, right? He's taking away the flashy plays.

Ja has the flashy plays. I'm not trying to shoot this but are you taking Halliburton? Are you taking Halliburton? Are you taking Halliburton over Jaha? Absolutely not. That's the thing. Listen, I like Halliburton.

I think one of the reasons why he got that underrated label is simply, for one, with the team he plays on, and two, even though he's efficient and he gets the job done at a high level, and just something about his game, it's not pretty. You know, it's not as pretty, it's not as aesthetically as pleasing as everybody else's when you watch his job. When you watch a James Harden or a Steph Curry or a Luka.

Because all the guys, Ocho, what you're saying is all the guys that we mentioned can go get you 50. Yeah. I mean, you don't think Halliburton can get you that we mentioned can go get you 50. Yeah. I mean, you don't think Halliburton can get you 50? Huh? You don't think Halliburton can get you 50? 40? No.

What's the most points Halliburton scored in the game? He'll get you 40. He'll get you. I think he'll get you 40. He'll get you 40, y'all. He'll get you 40, y'all. You heard me? He'll get you a quiet 40, and it's going to be ugly, too.

It's going to be ugly. But think about Shea. Look at Shea. How many times has Shea had the most 20, 30, 40, 50-point games? We've seen Luka. We've seen Luka drop 70-plus, so we know he can go get 50. We've seen Steph

do it. We've seen Steph do it in the game, but we've seen Steph do it. We've seen Steph do it in the game seven. We've seen Steph do it at 36, 37 years of age. The most points he's had, how many times have you scored 40 in the game? He got three 40-point games. Shea had, what, 10 of those this year.

Here's the thing too, Chad, and I don't know if you know a quarterback like this or a wide receiver, he plays the right way. Chad, here's the reality. When he has the ball, this is not a sexy play for a star point guard. He kicked the ball ahead of the floor. Kicked the ball ahead of the floor.

Jason Kidd was similar to that. He's a different build, but you might not get the assist, but it's the right play. All of Bernie's going to make the right play. And he just showed you tonight, he's clutch. And I feel like, oh, LeBron, let's be honest. LeBron don't get a lot of the praise from the people. Obviously, he may not be a tough-a-tease, not what we grew up seeing as an adult.

But LeBron will make the correct play. Paul LeBurton is a guy whoron will make the correct play. Tyler Burton is a guy who will always make the correct play. Obviously, he sat the bench for Team USA. Obviously, during the regular season, they look pedestrian. They couldn't bar the seat we sit in. The Indiana Pacers

look abysmal in mobile, okay? But they're in the Eastern Conference. But he's going to make the right play. Chad, are we faulting him for making the right play? Is there anybody that you can think of, even on the NFL side, that makes the correct play and they don't get the respect because they make the right play? You know we like somebody ball hogging the ball.

And the thing is with Halliburton, he doesn't turn the ball over. How many times have we seen him have 15 assists and no turnovers? How many times have we seen him have double assists and no turnovers? How many times have we seen him have double-digit assists in two or fewer turnovers? As much as he handles the ball, he's very efficient at not turning it over.

My point is, I would like to see him be more aggressive. Sometimes I'm like, bro, you had 11 shots. And for the longest time, you had six. And I'm like, bro, come on 11 shots. And for the longest time, you had six. And I'm like, bro, come on now. Come on. Bro, you got to do you've got to give them more.

And then you see that fourth quarter, he gave them more. He gave them an opportunity. Guys may play. Mattburn made some, and Neesmith made some big threes. That put back dunk that Mattburn had on that missed free throw. But look, I ain't got no problem with Halliburton,

but I understand. We like Flash. We like Magic Johnson. Ain't nobody can. Think about it. How many people they got right now? John Stockton, he got more assists. His record is never going to be broken.

Ain't nobody probably got John Stockton top five of point guards because everybody's like, okay, I got Magic. I got Steph Curry. I got Isaiah Thomas. They got so many guys in front of him because he wasn't flashing. All he did was pick and roll your ass to death. He was fundamentally

sound. I like Hallie's game. And you look, okay, you say, well, he sought the bench. Okay. I mean, who is he going to play in front of? He got a gold medal, though. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, also, you say about Hallie Burton really not being aggressive, only having 11 shots. You got to think, everybody else is double figures, too. So he ain't really got to do much because everybody else collectively is also being efficient and scoring and contributing. Honestly, I don't even know

how the hell they won that game. If you told me the score was, I think at one point, I can't... Ain't no way. I can't... It was 119 to 112. All right.

No, I mean, what's the biggest deficit they were down? Oh, they were down. I think they were down by like... At least down. I think they were down by like 20. Like 20. 20. At least 27.

Listen, I'm going to be honest with you. I thought the game was over. I thought the game was over at that point. I said, there's no way they're coming back, even with the injuries, even with Hunter and Garland being out. Now, Chad, how about this? They just did that to Milwaukee, Chad.

They had a crazy game like that. When they ended Milwaukee, it was a crazy... Chad, they got it. They're just saying now 20 points. You're right, though, Chad, but they did similar with Milwaukee. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Listen, I understand the game of basketball. It's a game of runs most of the

time, especially when you make substitutes and things change once your second level, your second tier guys come in the game. But 20 points, I'm thinking you're supposed to find a way to keep that lead. It used to be like that, Ocho. You already gave up one game.

They already stole one game from you. It used to be like that. And then they come back and you allow the one person, the one person that you don't want to shoot the ball the ball bounce sorry but you know what ryan and you could attest to this it used to be like that when you got these big leads for the most part the game was over but with that three point shot and there's so many guys that can shoot it now you're really never out of a ball game oh joe we

see teams be down 25 26 points in the first half and lose a team that's down 26, 20 points in the third quarter and lose a ball game because that three-point shot is an equalizer. So if I hit a couple of those and you go, you have a couple of bad possessions, a 20-point lead, I'll make three threes and two layups. Guess what? You're back in the game.

That's nine plus four, that's 13. I've cut the lead in three minutes down to seven. Hey, listen. We just saw a team. We didn't get to it yet. We just saw a team that lives by the three, die by it, too, by not being able to hit it. Yep.

I'm going to give you guys the goal real quick, for one, and I don't know how you feel about this. This generation, this decade's San Antonio Spurs is the Golden State Warriors. Steve Kerr will adapt to who he plays with. He wins with who's on the floor. And y'all just talked about not choking away a lead. They got

the lead on the road. Steph Curry's in the back, icing up. They held the ball. Watch Golden State. Y'all say, how did they hold them to 16 points? They hold the ball that it watched Golden State y'all say how did they hold them to 16 points and it said

they hold the ball and they shoot with 8 to 5 seconds on the clock now I'm gonna give you some credit Chavis I'm gonna give you

some credit I'm gonna give you some credit you said he needs to score Halliburton needs to score I think you said it too he needs to score

to get that type of credit I'm gonna give you a guy who scored the ball and turned his, I don't want to say turned his career around, but became a different player. Mike Malone challenged Nikola Jokic to score. He was a right play

type of guy. And when he was challenged to go give Rudy Gobert a 50 ball, a 40 ball, or whatever it may be. That changed Nikola Jokic. But Jokic was similar to Halliburton in the sense that he was just going to make the right play, make the right play, make the right play. So he could be a guy, and I hear you.

Y'all right in saying that for you to get that attention, for you to speak of you with the job and the staff and the you know, the Tatum's and everybody you're going to have to go give us that consistent 40 ball, that 50 ball when that game is on the line. So you're right because Jokic, Jokic I'm telling you, man, when he got

aggressive and that was always my thing with him. I didn't feel like he could score enough because when we game plan for Jokic, you come out and say you can't get them both. Either you make him a passer, we blitz him, get the ball out of his hands. Or you make him a scorer. Yeah. Or you make him a scorer.

You can't let him be 30, 20, and 15. Mm-hmm. Because not so he got 30 points and he dished out 15 assists. You know about five or seven of those are going to be three-pointers. Right. So now you're at his mercy. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next.

In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there, and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide.

And hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the fall of 1986, Ronald Reagan found himself at the center of a massive scandal that looked like it might bring down his presidency. Did you make a mistake in sending arms to Tehran, sir? No. It became known as the Iran-Contra affair. And I'm not taking any more questions in just a second. I'm going to ask Attorney General.

I'm Leon Nafok, co-creator of Slow Burn. In my podcast, Fiasco, Iran Contra, you'll hear all the unbelievable details of a scandal that captivated the nation nearly 40 years ago, but which few of us still remember today. The things that happened were so bizarre and insane, I can't begin to tell you. Please do. To hear the whole story,

listen to Fiasco, Iran Contra on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see. Muhammad Ali was never afraid to express himself loudly and boldly and stays true to form in Ali and Me, an eight-part Audible original. Guided by his own words, this series explores Ali's life and legacy through never-before-heard audio recordings and discussions with those who knew him best. Muhammad had this real sense of his own personal values and principles, things he believed in, his own sense of conviction.

Those convictions never wavered. Hosted by Muhammad's wife, Lani Ali, and his close friend, award-winning broadcaster, John Ramsey, Ali and Me goes beyond the boxing ring to delve deeply into Ollie's extraordinary life through conversations with Billy Crystal, Mike Tyson, Rosie Perez, Common, Will Smith, and Bob Costas. It created a North Star for me of how I want to be in the world, you know. As a child, as a young person, he gave credence to my audacity.

There's no debate that this is the greatest global sports figure of our life. Listen to Ali and Me, now on Audible. Aaron Gorn hit a game-winning three against the Thunder. There's been a lot of discussion about this today. Ryan,winning three against the Thunder. There's been a lot of discussion about this today. Ryan, do you think the Thunder's strategy of filing up three with Jokic on the bench?

That's what I didn't get. Nikola Jokic, game one, 42 points. He had 26 in the second half. 22 rebounds, six assists, two blocks. He became only the fourth player in NBA history to have— well, the fourth player because Wilt did it twice. 40, 20, and 5. Wilt did it twice.

Shaq did it. Giannis did it. Now Nikola Jokic has done it. Do you like the strategy? I get the premise, but why would you file in the backcourt? Why would you file in the backcourt, right? It was silly because you allow Jokic to get back in. But why would you file in the backcourt? Why would you file in the backcourt, right?

It was silly because you allow your kids to get back in. It's another play that happened that I don't think we talked enough about. Shea Gilles is out of ground and fucked to the basket. He's wide open. He dunks the ball. Yeah, you can get those two. Dribble the club. Dribble the club. Take some more time off.

They're not talking about that enough with Shea. Chet Holmgren misses two free throws, okay? Here's the reality, and we just saw this with Golden State. The teams that got pressed, the teams that played game sevens, Chad, they came in sharp. When you get battle tested, you came in sharp. Okay, see, they had a cakewalk. Memphis just shut it down, especially when

John went down, they weren't challenged so you're going to expect Oklahoma City is going to play better, Dagnall definitely made some mistakes and it's tough because I don't want to talk about it, but Rockets didn't have the experience and you're looking at OKC and it was an experience loss

I don't want to say anything bad because Mark has been unbelievable this season, serious about him this season. But you do have to challenge him and say, man, yeah, you could have played that different. And we're going to see everything we need to know about them boys in game two. Yeah, you look at, I mean, the thing is, and they had two big guys and Yoke went to work on them.

Both of them had at least five fouls. And look, you can't stop him. You just hope you can make him inefficient. Who's the second big guy, Earl? Isaiah Harden started in Chet. Chet's a dog, bro. We're not going to call Chet a big guy. We're going to call him a dog?

Listen, I love Chet. I'm a skinny boy, too, okay? I'm a skinny boy. Chet's a guard, bro. He's tall, but he's a guard. He's not big. And he's too small. He ain't trying to bang.

Yolk banging. He too small to be down there in the block or in the paint anyway. No, he need to go to some fast food restaurant and get him a couple of burgers and some fries and a shake. You look at Yolk,

he's second in points, first in rebounds, first in assists, first in steals. I mean, what do you say? And I said this before, I believe Shea should win the MVP. But if you say you get one player in the NBA, I'm taking Nikola Jokic. I'm taking him over

Giannis. I'm taking him over with Luka. I'm taking him over with Shea. I'm taking him over with anybody because there's nothing that he can't do. If you need a score, he averages 30. You need somebody to rebound, he was third in rebounding. You need somebody to facilitate assist, he's second and third of assist.

What can he do that all these other guys can do? Nothing. And he's efficient. Don't look at his shooting percentage. He can shoot to three Don't look at his shooting percentage. He can shoot the three. He got the mid-range. I don't know if I've ever seen a big guy.

I've never seen a guy get big, medium, small with that kind of touch around the basket. I mean, with either hand, I mean, what are we watching? What are we saying here? Nice. I mean, people try to discredit him. Well, he don't play no defense.

I don't care. Because I guarantee you, the guy that he playing, I guarantee you he ain't putting up those numbers. So unless he putting up those numbers, they can't cancel it out on Joe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't talk to me about no defense. Right.

Man. Chad, I'm going to give you both sides to this. I'm going to give you both sides. Let's play devil's advocate for a moment, okay? If he gets another championship, which is very realistic, if he gets another championship as sick as the NBA is, he's going to be knocking on that goat conversation. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

And we just want to say, Chad. Wait, go to what position? At center? Center? The greatest of all time. Already? You can argue with his numbers

and his impact on the game. He may be the greatest center that we've ever seen play the game. Chad, because he doesn't like, you don't like the way, you talk about Oliver, you don't like the way he does.

You're not used to a guy who can't jump over a football. You're not used to that guy. But if you look a phone book. You're not used to that guy. But if you look at his impact, you look at his numbers, you can argue he's the greatest center that we've ever seen right now. Now, his story is yet to be told. And in this generation, the way he manipulates the game, forgive me. I talked about Lufa and LeBron, And he impacts the game like they do.

He's the point guard. He's the point guard. He's in every way the point guard, the influence on his game. Now, I talk back when they say he had to play with an all-star because he earned Jamal Murray to an all-star at the end of the day. And I want to challenge because if he gets a championship, he's knocking on the door. And if he gets another person who gets bold enough to say, I want to go to Denver and play with him.

Right. It's a different conversation. Now, here's the devil's advocate side of it. He's doing that in this era. If he did that in my era and before we played with two bigs, we had four power forwards on the floor, on your roster. We have three to four centers on roster. You didn't have the same type of spacing. We would have been physical with him. He would have been back putting in the help.

They wouldn't have had the three-point shooting or the pace, which helps him out. Guys can lean on him. I don't think he would have been that effective. I don't think it was a game of power and not necessarily finesse. Now, he's the closest thing we have to Arbita Sabonis, but I can argue and understand both ways.

But from a numbers standpoint, or when we argue for Michael Jordan, you argue that Michael dominated his track. The closest thing is Joel Embiid. He did Rudy Gobert. Rudy Gobert was a three, four-time defenseman. He dropped 50 balls on Rudy Gobert. Right.

Not 40. He told Rudy, Rudy said, I got it. They put in the pick, and Rudy said, I got it. He said, brother, I got 47. What you got? You talking about you got me, and I don't know. Oh, Joe, that's like the DB. Hey, I got it.

Hey, I don't want no help. I got it. Bro, I got 10 for a buck, 75 and two toes. What you talking about you got me? You better get some help over here. Here's the thing. And this is very, very likely. It's not out of the realm of possibility, Ocho.

Yeah. He gets two more regular season MVPs. So now he get two more. That makes it five. As Ryan says he gets another finals MVP right

five regular season in a ring two finals with the numbers that he's putting up now he just became the first center to average a triple double

let that sink in now yeah but hold on hold on hold on y'all slow down a little bit now let's think let's think about this a little bit now

Ryan and what you think let's say he does get another ring let's say he does with another two mvps are we sure we're talking about him being the best big man and center of all time even with this even with the centers that we've had even the greatest now the kareem the wilt the shacks that come uh it's so hard to compare er the Akeem. It's so hard to compare eras. You know, it's so hard to compare eras. But you have to say, okay, Kareem dominated the 70s.

Moses Malone dominated the 80s. Right. I don't know who was the big. I mean, Shaq for Olajuwon or Robinson in the 90s. But Wilt dominated the 60s. He Russell's, and so it's hard. But it's hard for us to put the GOAT, say, up center. If the GOAT, for the simple fact is, he needs a guard to get him the ball. So that's why we kind of—we don't give Kareem the credit.

Kareem is the only guy that don't get credit for what he's done. He got six— 100%. He got six. 100%. He got six regular season MVPs. He had the most unstoppable shot. You can talk about Kobe's fadeaway. You can have one leg step back here in KD. You can talk about Kobe midi.

But the most unstoppable shot in basketball history was one Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the sky hook. Now, he won six MVPs. Now, think about what was amazing. Back then, the players voted on the MVP. The players determined who the MVP. Yeah, you didn't know that, did you, Ryan? The players voted for the MVP.

Dude, you really got it. When you had a respect to your Dude, you really got it. When you had a respect to your peers, you really got it. Yeah, he was that boy. Ain't no accident. And he won it. Think about it. Magic's rookie year, Kareem was MVP. So how is that possible?

The MVP, and you win the finals. You win the championship. Magic's rookie year. Magic is finals MVP, Kareem is regular season MVP. But here's the thing. Had Kareem not got hurt, Kareem would have been

the finals MVP. Kareem was averaging 33 and 12. Go look it up. He was giving work to Caldwell Jones and Daryl Dawkins and they had no answer for Kareem.

But Kareem ended up... Go look it up. See, I'm old enough to remember that, Ocho. People try to run game when you try to put the wool over your head. But you can't pull on up because I'm old enough to remember it.

I had to watch the game the next day because back then, the game was taped delayed, Ocho. You couldn't watch it live. Right. So the game come on one day, you're watching it. You're watching it.

Yeah, yeah. You're watching it. Like that. That's crazy. You're watching. Like that. That's crazy. You already know who won the game, but I'm going to watch it anyway. Maybe something happened they didn't tell me about. And forgive everyone as we had this conversation. Shout out to the – because we know them.

There's us. We're doing this for – it's a simple fact that sports debate. Okay, so let's face it. I think Kareem was athletic enough to guard him, but he didn't put Kareem in pick and roll. He sure as hell can guard Kareem. There's no question. But he'd have moved.

He'd have got assists. And Kareem was an athlete. When we look at Giannis, if you said, Kareem, bring the ball up the floor and go through the leg, he could have done that. He was that still. If we're looking at Bill Russell I think the arrows are so far away

I don't even want to disrespect the game but in terms of Shaq we can give this a little bit but here's the thing Shaq would have been physical but Shaq wouldn't have guarded him, Robert Horry would have guarded Jokic and Jokic

would have, I love Big Shot, but hold on. H-Town legend. Rob would have had to hold his ground, but Rob would have had to chase him, and he would have got his numbers, and Shag maybe would have had to slide over late. And here's the reality. Arvita Sabonis with the Portland Troubles,

he... Listen. He was Jokic before Jokic. He wore the Lakers out. You remember that scene? He wore the Lakers out. You remember that scene? He wore the Lakers out. Yeah. So if that's the indicator of him, and don't disrespect to the big fella,

none at all, I love Shaq. Shaq was on my wall, you know what I'm saying? No question there. He would have wore that team out. Now, he couldn't guard Shaq, but you look at the numbers, you look at the impact, and you look at what he did. Shaq is the most dominant.

We don't take that away. But as far as the impact, what he would have had, he's a younger Arvidas. Now, Arvidas was more athletic. He was a couple inches taller. Arvidas was 7'3". People don't realize how tall he was.

He was 7'3". But by the time he got to the Lakers, he had spent much of his time with the unified team. And so by the time he got to the Lakers, he had spent much of his time with the Unified team. And so by the time he got to the Lakers, his knees were bad. He wasn't that... Could he pass the ball? Yeah. Proud of Jokic, he was the best passing big man that we had

ever seen. But by the time he got here, he had spent damn near... over a decade just playing with the Unified team. So his knees, his body had started to break down on him, Ocho. But he was a tremendous passer. Now, he couldn't score the ball like Yolk. He could not score the ball like Yolk.

But he could pass the ball like Yolk. He'd have the ball out here, and the next thing you know, the guy coming, and he would dump it down to him. He was a phenomenal player. But the thing that separates Yolk is that from any other big center is that he could do it from three levels. Most of the guys, Elijah Wan had the mid-range.

He had played back to the basket. He could play around the rim. Shaq was around the rim. Okay, Kareem could throw the sky hook, but we've never seen a guy that could shoot the three. He had the mid-range and he could put the ball on the floor and finish at the rim. Not above the rim, at the rim.

We've never seen a big that could do that. And I don't know if we'll ever see one that can do that, that is skilled as he is right now. Chad, I want to give you this. When you see Jokic, you see him in person. He's about 6'11", 7 feet,

but he's wide. He's 7 what? About 6'11", 7 feet, but he's wide. He's 7 what? About 6'11", 7 feet. He's huge. And his shoulders are wide, so when he spins off you, when he makes a move, his shoulder, he's huge. He's huge, bro.

And his arms are long, so he can't jump high, but when he's putting the ball above his head, when he's making a move, he's effective. And if you head, when he's making a move, he's effective. And if you watch him, he's a lot stronger. He plays a finesse game, but he's so much stronger than he gets credit for. That's a strong boy right there. So when he's hitting the guards, he's not overpowering them.

He's an unbelievable coordination, and he's just backing you under the rim. And he's looking out, and he's watching you. You know, the wildest thing he'll do, he'll watch the help. You get a great player who can pass, he'll sit there and he'll watch the help. And as soon as you pull, he's throwing that backdoor lob to Aaron Gordon. He's making those type of plays. So I think even from a physical standpoint, he's just uniquely built with his coordination and size.

And then you think how much he plays. No, he's not a great defender. He's a wall-up defender. He's played more at the level in pick and rolls this year under Mike Malone that I've seen him play, and he will do it in spurts, but it's not something you want to rely upon. Wait, hold on. I didn't

know he was that goddamn tall, because if you look at his footwork, when he's in the post, hell, even when he's out in goddamn space and he put the ball on the floor, I'm like, what the hell?

I'm thinking he's about 6'5", 6'7". No. No, he's tall. He's 6'11". He's easy. He's here at least 6'11". But you see his package,

though? To be that big? You see his footwork? To be that big moving like that? Yeah. What? Soccer.

He loves soccer. You look at guys. You look at Luka. Love soccer. Okay, okay, okay. Look at Olajuwon. It makes sense. Olajuwon grew up playing soccer.

That's why he had the footwork that he had. That's why he doing all this, the up and under drop step. Right. He's phenomenal. Hold on. Go ahead. I got one for you, Ryan. Now, I know Joker is that boy.

I have a question. Now, y'all chat. Don't jump on me. I'm asking a question. If Boogie Cousins hadn't got hurt, how close would Boogie Cousins have been to, like, Joker? It's funny you say that. I played with Boogie. I played with Boogie.

And they have a very similar skill set. It's funny you say that. I played with Boogie. I played with Boogie. Boogie was like that. And they have a very similar skill set because they have the wide shoulders. Now, Boogie wasn't the passer like him, but as far as Boogie would feel, a double team, spin off baseline. And you're all set. But Boogie played the three. He could run the ring if he wanted to, bro. Everything.

Absolutely. 100% Chad. I don't realize how Boogie was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boogie was good, man. He was. I think Boogie is more athletic. Boogie can run. Yes. I mean, it was not uncommon for Boogie to have 50, 20 games.

Had he not gotten injured, had he not Achilles and his ACL and all those injuries he was special I'll give you this I think the tough thing with DeMarcus and I play with Boogie that's one of my favorite teammates ever you know what's Chad Boogie's a guy that you see some of the things he does

on the court with his energy that he brings some of the stuff he said honestly he'd tell you himself he'd have liked to reel some of that stuff. But like, off the court, the softest-spoken coolest dude ever. Did he have some moments in practice where we peed it or getting into it?

Absolutely, but he's a good dude at heart. Love that dude. And I will say, you know, the thing with DeMarcus, the difference between him and the European game, what they teach here, you know, when Bo demarcus the difference between him and the european game what they teach here you know when boogie played his best he had to be angry he had to be mad yeah and and his emotion got him to that place and yokich early in his career was quiet calm right he wasn't that i'm not gonna ever say he wasn't that good but he wasn wasn't. He didn't have rah-rah like Mike Malone put that dog in him.

And for Boogie, before he was able to slow the game down mentally for himself, he ended up injured, as Funk said. And it was funny that when you see guys get into the 30s, get to the age, you know, Halliburton has an old soul. He got an old game. His daddy taught him very well about playing the game, or whoever coached him daddy taught him very well about playing the game. Whoever coached him, coached him very well. But I remember when I played with KG.

Chad, I don't know if you remember. KG would take, shout out KG. KG would hit his head off the back door. At the beginning of the game. And I thought he was crazy. Everybody thought he was crazy. And then we said, and I remember going up to Ticket. And I said, Ticket, I remember asking him.

And he, and to be clear, years of my career, I said, and I remember going up to Ticket, and I said, Ticket, I remember asking him, and he put years on my career. I said, how you pumped up every game? How you so pumped up every game? Because you know, as a young guy, we play on emotion. Boogie played on emotion, definitely at a much higher level than I did. And KG said, young, what you mean? I said, I see you do this, you're in a full sweat, you're yelling

and all that. He said, I'm as calm as can be. He said, watching me before the game, I'm taking breaths, I'm breathing, I'm calm. He said, look at me during the timeouts. He said, are you watching me, young'un? I said, no, you turned out, right? He said, I'm sitting there breathing. I'm thinking about the game plan. I'm thinking about the things that we need to go through to get to. So if Boogie had got to that point, if he had got that veteran maturity, we would be bringing his name to these conversations.

He just didn't get to that point. But when you're young, us American-born players, we play from a place of pain and hurt and passion. And then you get older and you learn how to refine it. Some of the guys never get to that point

in their careers where they can refine it. Some of the guys never get to that point in their careers where they can refine it and play off their mental stability. But a guy like Jokic, he was turned up, he has it, he knows the game, man. So it's fun to watch. Aaron Gordon has been phenomenal these playoffs. He's averaging 19 points a game, 7 rebounds a game, shooting 51% from the floor, and he has two game winners.

He had 22 points last night, and Jokic obviously had that monster game, shooting 51% from the floor, and he has two game winners. He had 22 points last night, and Yolk obviously had that monster game, 15-29. He had 42 points, 22 rebounds, six assists, a steal, two blocks. He did have the seven turnovers, but Murray got it going late in the ballgame, had 21. Christian Brown had 11. Russ, the Russ experience, you know what you're going to get. You're going to get all that effort.

You're going to get some turnovers, but you're going to get some steals. You're going to get a block. You're going to get some great finishes. You're going to get some air balls. You're going to get some big made threes. They needed all of that to offset what they didn't get from Michael Porter Jr. He gave him two points on one of eight shooting. And I understand the shoulder, but, bro, you can't give them two.

You can't give them two. You can't give them two because the Thunder had 20, they had six guys in double figures. Shea was 33. Caruso had 20 off the bench. You have Lou Dortch, four of nine from three. He had 14.

Isaiah Hartenstein had 12. Jalen Williams had 16. He was five of 20. He hadn't shot the ball particularly well. Chet Holmstein had 12. Jalen Williams had 16. He was 5 of 20. He hadn't shot the ball particularly well. Chet Holmgren had 12. But it was those two missed free throws. And you could tell. You know, it normally happens like that, Ryan.

You know, a guy, he, you know, I can smoke a layup on one of you, and they go back down on the other end and get a three. You're like, damn, that's a five-point swing. I love Chet, so I don't want to do this. But the key, I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it.

The key to beating Oklahoma City is attacking Chet. He the weak link? No. I'm not going to say he's the weak link, but he hasn't put on the strength. He doesn't have the experience in the playoffs yet. He can't anchor down.

There's a play before those missed free throws. And Gordon and Gordon running the wing. They hit him ahead. He goes face to face with Chet. And he dunked him. He dunked him. And, uh-oh show. You know when you get leveled.

It's all... Now, Chet, you crazy. So you got knocked out by Ray Lewis. You got up top of how he hit me. You're going to keep playing. You're going to keep playing. But when you get dunked and that Chet was messed up since.

So for him, you can be skinny. I was skinny, but I wasn't. I don't want to call him soft. I think that's disrespectful to a professional athlete. You gotta know how to hold your ground. If Gordon's going up for a dunk, you take that joker out the air.

You take that joker. He might get an and one, but he ain't dunking it. So he's gonna have to make those one, but he ain't dunking it. Okay. So he is going to have to make those plays. But when you beat Oklahoma City and why the Houston Rockets had success against them, they were physical and they attacked check. If he was guarding big Steve-O underneath, Steve-O hit the boards,

walked him underneath, got a rebound. If he guarded Shingo, Shingo was right through his chest. He didn't even make moves. He was right through his chest. So what you're seeing with Oklahoma City and Denver, whether it's Gordon, whether it's Jokic, they're making it so

you can't hide Chet. Chet is an unbelievable weak side shot blocker. If you don't put your hands on him, he can play in space. In football, it's like a team. Remember the Colts? The Colts had a small secondary. They had small linemen up front.

If you were down and they were rushing you, you couldn't stop them. Mattis, Franey, and them boys, you couldn't stop them. But if you could run the ball and manage the game and attack Mattis and Franey and those guys, you had a shot because they were small.

Oklahoma City is small. So that's something similar that you're seeing right there. So as I look for it, Denver found something. They're crisp off of playing a game seven, and they had the experience. And I said this before. I said, whoever wins that Clippers Nugget Series might be coming out the West.

Wow. The Volume. Clippers Nugget Series might be coming out the west. Wow. I'm Michael Kasson, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company. The podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi. We dive into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There are so many stories out there, and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

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