No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Are Democrats taking Trump's bait?

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

The big debate: are Democrats taking the bait by fighting the illegal deportation of migrants to El Salvador? Brian interviews Gavin Newsom about his lawsuit against the Trump administration; Senator Van Hollen about going to El Salvador to meet with illegally deported Kilmar Abrego Garcia; Jon Favreau about the political impacts of the immigration debate; and Abdul El Sayed about his campaign for Senate in Michigan.Shop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to discuss the big debate. Our Democrats taking the bait by fighting the illegal deportation of migrants to El Salvador. And I've got four interviews this week. I speak with Gavin Newsom about his lawsuit against the Trump administration. Senator Chris Van Hollen about going to El Salvador to meet with the illegally deported Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia. John Favro about the political impacts of the immigration debate. And Abdul al-Sayyad about his campaign for Senate and Michigan. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie.

There was reporting an axios that has driving. a lot of the news coverage as it relates to Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia, the immigrant who was illegally sent to a maximum security prison in El Salvador. That reporting reads, The Second House Democrat who spoke anonymously, a centrist called the deportation issue a soup de jour, arguing Trump is setting a trap for the Democrats, and like usual, we're falling for it. Quote, rather than talking about the tariff policy and the economy, the thing where his numbers are tanking, we're going to take the bait for one hairdresser, they said, likely referring to Andrew Hernandez-Ramero. Only if Trump tries to deport U.S. citizens, the

Lawmaker argued, well, Democrats need to draw a line in the sand and shut down the house. So let's talk about this, because I understand that there are people who say Democrats' worst issue is immigration at a moment where Trump is quite literally destroying our economy, which if 2024 showed us anything, is a major issue to exploit, a potent issue to exploit. We should be focusing on that. Two things here. One, we should focus on that. And we do focus on that.

I talk about the economy every single day. I talk about the impacts of Trump's idiotic tariffs. on our stock market, on our 401Ks, on the cost of everyday goods. The reality is that Trump is destroying a generation of farmers by sending other countries to Brazil or Australia to get stuff like beef and soybeans where they used to come to American farmers for those things. Even if the tariffs are removed, we won't recover to where we were pre-tariff levels because they're creating new relationships with other farmers, other countries.

Aside from that, you know, our car manufacturers are going to suffer. Our supply chains are the result of decades of close cooperation with Canada and Mexico, and that process is going to grind to a halt because of what Trump is doing, which is basically a death knell for American auto manufacturing. Jerome Powell, just this week,

announced slower growth and high inflation. Inflation was the issue that killed Democrats in the 2024 election, so I will continue to beat on this drum every single day. But talking about the economy and talking about immigration are not mutually exclusive.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time. And I'm sorry, but I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that Trump disappearing legal residence to a foreign prison is something that we should say silent about just because Trump pulls better on immigration. I refuse to believe that moderate Republicans and independents think that allowing a Maryland dad and legal resident charged with no crime rotting in a foreign gulag is acceptable. I refuse to believe that we have lost every shred of our humanity in this country. And look, I'm not saying this from a political perspective at all.

I'm saying this as a human being with an ounce of empathy. I am all for the deportation of dangerous criminals. This guy ain't one. He was charged with nothing, afforded no due process. He's got three kids with disabilities. He's a sheet metal worker, a union member. And the fact that he wore a Chicago Bulls hat in 2019 is the justification that ICE pointed to

in claiming that he is a gang member of a city that, by the way, he didn't live in. Again, I'm all for the deportation of dangerous criminals. Like, I live in an American citizen. too. I want my family to be safe too. I have the same fears that everybody else has. I'm not blind to the realities of life in America in 2025. I mean, hell, I can guarantee you, if you've looked at my inbox, based on the amount of threats I receive, which I'm sure are far greater than the average person that I'm hyperware of crime. But do it legitimately. Disappearing this guy is not legitimate, nor, frankly, is it American. We have a constitution. We have a constitution. We have

a Fifth Amendment right affording you a trial. If you've got a gang member who is here illegally, we're probably all in agreement that those people should be deported. But we have to know that they are gang members. And the way to do that is by affording someone due process, which Garcia was denied. Again, I am not defending criminals. I am demanding that we know who the criminals are

so that we are not punishing people who are innocent or even upstanding members of society, people who pay taxes and go to work and take care of their kids and enrich our communities. and I want to be clear because Republicans are trying to own this narrative with every fiber of their being, what I am saying is not an extreme position. Disappearing innocent people to foreign prisons is the extreme position.

Period. Full stop. And if, by the way, the moral imperative to speak out wasn't enough, which it should be, but let's say that you're still numbers driven and you just can't bring yourself to want to discuss immigration because of what all the polls say, then just look at the polls. According to the latest U-Gov survey, of all the issues in the political zeitgeist right now, the following question, deporting immigrants without criminal convictions to El Salvador to be imprisoned, without letting them challenge the deportation in court, that question pulls dead last among Americans.

46% of Americans strongly oppose it and 15% of Americans somewhat oppose it. That's nearly two-thirds of Americans who oppose in some fashion what this administration is doing. Not exactly a home run hill to die on. So, again, even if the moral argument isn't enough, the polling backs up that position, that disappearing innocent people to a foreign gulag with zero due process is not something that Americans are responding well to. And in the same way that Trump destroyed his lead on the economy, he is doing the same thing with his last vestige of support with immigration.

And there's one more reason that I think it's especially important to discuss this. And that's that if we don't speak up now, we emboldened Trump to go after everybody else. the reality is that while his administration promised that it was only interested in going after hardened undocumented criminals they have already undermined their own promise by going after this guy this guy who was charged with nothing he's a legal resident in fact just this past week it was reported that u.s citizens are now being detained including a couple up in boston this is a pattern by the trump administration if you allow them an inch they will take a mile if one law firm capitulates trump realizes how easy it is and he goes after a dozen more if one

university like Columbia capitulates, Trump goes after more. If one tech billionaire capitulates, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, he goes after more. If one media company like ABC News capitulates, he goes after more. If we do not stand up and fight him now on this issue, when he's going after one legal resident who was not charged with a crime, then we don't get to act surprise when he goes after other legal residents or ultimately American citizens. We've seen the playbook. He's already broadcasting it. So we have to fight now on this issue while there's still an opportunity to fight. Next up are my interviews with Gavin Newsom, Chris Van Hollen,

John Favreau, and Abdullah Syed. No lies brought to you by Acorns. I am certainly no expert when it comes to investing, and oftentimes I feel like I'm missing the boat when it comes to investing because other people know what they're doing, and yet I don't. Here's the deal. April is Financial Literacy Month.

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Gavin Newsom, thank you so much for joining me. It's going to be with you. Thank you. So we have been in a moment where we're obviously seeing a lot of overreach by this administration, whether it relates to their foreign policy, whether it relates to economic factors. We have heard that given the fact that there's very little Congress is willing to do, very little the Republicans are willing to do to rein in their own president's overreach, that the onus falls on the states to actually step in. And that's exactly what you've done today.

You've just broken some news. Can you explain what you just did? Well, look, I just remind people the size of California. It's the size of 21 state populations combined, fifth largest economy in the world. But with the largest, and most folks listening, perhaps don't know this, were the largest manufacturing state in America, $412 billion of output. And put that in perspective, that's 41% greater than Texas and their manufacturing base. And so no state in America is more impacted by Trump's tariffs, Trump's tax increase,

Trump's regressive de facto sales tax increase in all the uncertainty that he's brought to bear to our markets, to our allies, to our relationships and trade and supply chains around the globe. And as a consequence of that, we're already starting to see the effects in my home state, not least of which today, the markets, your 401k was impacted, the NASDAQ dropping significantly NVIDIA, a great California company, great American company, one of the dominant global companies, took a $5.5 billion charge related to some of the uncertainty, the toxic uncertainty coming from the Trump administration. And so we sued. This is a 15th lawsuit since Trump took himself back, or rather, got back in office. And we sued the Trump administration saying

that he does not have the unilateral authority to oppose these tariffs. And we think we're on very, very firm ground. And we used the frame around the major questions doctrine. I won't get into the details of it, except to say the Supreme Court recently adjudicated against the student loans from Biden and against Obama's clean power plan on the major questions doctrine. And if they're going to be consistent using that framework, we feel very confident the lawsuit that we just advanced that these. Paris simply are unlawful and Congress never specifically called them out under what we call the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Can you talk about the fact that Trump had run his campaign largely predicated on this

idea that he understood Americans' pain as it relates to the economy as it related to rent and housing and high grocery prices and the cost of eggs? My God, how many times did we hear about the cost of eggs from the Trump campaign? And yet the first thing they opted to do, once they actually had power, once they no longer needed everybody's votes, because they already got what they needed from people, is to engage in a trade war, a doomed trade war, that would immediately have the impact of raising costs for everybody

while at the same time gutting everybody's 401Ks, including, by the way, for people who need to draw from those programs now because, you know, they're in that phase of their life where they're living off of that. Yeah, it's complete portrayal. I mean, the focus more on Greenland than the cost of groceries. Of course, you listen to Trump, he discovered the word groceries. He keeps literally acting like he's reaffed,

rediscovered a word and he's introducing it to the American people. That's serious. That's how out of touch he is. He lied to people. Today I did this. I announced this lawsuit today in the middle of one of the most densely populated Trump counties in the United States of America in the heart of Central Valley and the heart of one of the largest agricultural districts in America. I'll remind you, $48 billion a year comes out of the state of California in forestry, fishing, hunting, and agriculture, no other state, 150% larger than the next state, Texas. So no state's more impacted by this betrayal, no constituencies more impacted by this betrayal than the constituency that elected Donald Trump and got them back into office.

And in your discussions with those folks, look, I understand that if you're talking to, you know, these liberal bastions, like I live in Los Angeles, it's clear where everybody stands on Donald Trump. But he swept into office with a bigger mandate than he had the first term. He had a true net positive approval rating and a majority in the popular vote. And so there are folks who did believe him in terms of what he was saying when he came into office. In your discussions with those people, the people who actually did support him, maybe, maybe, you know, he pulled off support from Joe Biden, or maybe these are folks who didn't support Trump the first go around. What have they been saying about the impacts that Trump's tariffs are going to have on them, them personally,

their businesses, their trade, and so on? I mean, they're devastated and they feel betrayed. That said, I think the deeper question is, do you think they would vote for Trump again? And I think they might. And that's a, it's a deeper conversation we need to have as to why. But they're devastated because of the uncertainty. They're devastated because of the impacts of that uncertainty on their business. Let me be specific. I was at a lot of. an almond farmer at an almond farm today and the impact to her farm which is generational is already being felt and she said it may never come back to where it was because they're export dependent almonds pistachio and dairy in the state of california are export dependent 43 percent exports

in that space and so the impacts are already being felt their suppliers their relationships are already being afraid people don't have confidence and trust and they experienced by the way this back in Trump 1.0 as it relates to China and the retaliatory tariffs as it relates to the imports of California ag. And the fact is they've already had to diversify, China already diversified, that is. And so it's already been permanent. This is a death now. And you add that to the retirement anxiety and the fact that we know they're going to come swoop in. And these are the districts with the highest percentage of people that are on Medicaid in California, Medi-Cal.

And they know what's coming next. So it's cultural, perhaps, maybe that's the answer, more than it is economic. But right now, the economic realities are just are a body glow to these communities and these folks that voted for Trump. I think what you said is so important because we're already seeing the Trump administration take steps to use federal funds, just like it did in the first term, to make the farmers whole who are going to be impacted by this trade war. But the reality is that that's just basically putting a band-aid on, you know, on a, on a, on a massive wound right now. I mean, it's like chopping off somebody's leg and sticking a band-aid on it

because the reality is, to your exact point, other countries have had to diversify. And we saw Brazilian farmers, for example, see their exports explode because we've been here before and those other countries knew that they had to find other avenues to get the foods that they needed.

And so the U.S. farmers never did recover. And so if we become such an unreliable trading partner, it's going to get to the point where even if the tariffs are taken down at some untold point in the future, those other countries already found their customers, their exporters elsewhere. And so it's only going to keep getting worse and worse and worse for American farmers by virtue of the fact that, yeah, sure, Trump will throw you a few bucks to make you whole this year. But what are you going to do next year? What are you going to do the year after that?

And for the next five and ten and 20 years? I mean, if this is not a death now for the broader agriculture sector, I don't know what. is in all the related industries that support it we were with someone that that runs small manufacture small warehouses in the impacts of the supply chain and the relationships he has uh in north america the relationships he has as it relates the relationships specifically from canada in mexico remember california is unique in terms of the outsized impact we are disproportionately getting slammed by these tariffs because 44 percent of all of our imports come from three countries China, come Canada and Mexico, and we're so integrated, particularly with Mexico and Canada

on supply chains. I'll give you a proof point specific in the southern border in the Baja Cali region, which is that sort of super region near San Diego. You've got so much that's manufactured south of the border, and then the final assembly is done north of the border. I'm talking about automobiles. I'm talking about issues around aerospace and consumer electronics. It's so historically integrated, and those relationships took decades.

I'm talking decades to build, and he's destroying them in real time. But he's destroying the most important commodity, the coin of the realm, and that's trust. And that, even if he undoes these tariffs, to your point, there's permanent damage here to the reputation, brand America. And that's why this is code red. That's why I'm proud that the word were the first state to assert ourselves on this macroeconomic, level. And then on the sub-national level, you may have seen just a few days ago, we're doing outreach, investing about $5.2 million in Canada to do outreach to our friends in Canada. Two million Canadians visited California last year, and we're making the point. We're not Florida. We're not

Donald Trump's America. We're the state of California. We're 2,000 miles away from D.C. We're a million miles away in terms of mindset and approach in terms of our relationship. We're dusting off memorands of understanding, meeting with foreign leaders, meeting with ambassadors of other countries, and making the case we're stable and reliable partner. And I think all Democratic governors in every Democratic state, we need to align at this critical moment because what you said on the outset is the fundamental point, where the hell is Congress, where the hell is the system of checks and balances, where we're going to celebrate the 250 anniversary, the founding of our nation. And it was about three independent branches of government. We can get

to the rule of law and the courts in a second. But this is the greatest vandalism in the history of our republic and history of our democracy. And it is time for us to exponentially step up and push back. Perfectly put. And I do want to dig into exactly that because to the point of where is Congress asserting its autonomy. And we have the other branch, the judicial branch, is pushing back against this administration. The fact is that the Trump administration is opting to defy right now a nine to nothing unanimous Supreme Court ruling that ordered Kilmar Abrago Garcia to be returned back to the United States. And yet, I think the Trump administration views this specific case as a metaphor for their broader immigration fight. And so they know that

if they relent to a lawful order handed down, a lawful ruling handed down by the Supreme Court, that this is them somehow conceding defeat in their broader immigration fight. And so they're allowing this to be the test case. And so can I have your reaction to the fact that right now, I mean, I would contend that we have been in a constitutional crisis for a long time. Legally speaking, a constitutional crisis would occur when you have a ruling handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court and the executive branch opts not to comply. And so we're effectively there right now. Can I have your reaction to the fact that Trump is basically discarding the will of the other two co-equal branches of government to assert himself as this all-powerful deity

in the United States. Well, you said two things, and you said it brilliantly. Number one, this is a perfect test case for them, right? This is the perfect distraction. First of all, let's get back to the issue. This is a disgrace. This is foundational, the rule of law. This is the cornerstone of what makes America America to defy a federal judge's order.

to be in contempt, where there seems to be in basis of the federal judge today, saying there's predominance of evidence to suggest he is in criminal contempt, the administration of a court order. I mean, again, you're on deep, your miles on the other side of the red line in terms of what this country is foundationally stood upon, and it's that three-legged stool that you refer to. The founding fathers did not live and die for this moment. And so if you want this democracy, this Democratic Republic to survive, that has to be called out with clarity and conviction, period, full stop.

But you made a second point or an earlier point, which is they do think this is a broader distraction. And they think it's the perfect argument for Democrats to get trapped into because it goes to the immigration issue. And then somehow we're quote-unquote defending someone where they have now provided any evidence is a member of MS-13. and somehow it gets all caught into that and conflated into that broader issue of him being tough on crime, tough on immigration. And so that's, I think you're right. That's why they on this one are being even more defiant than they normally would be. But these are not normal times.

So we have to call it out with clarity and conviction. But this is part of what we have to do and not get distracted with distractions. And focus on what is essential. This is essential. But we've got to stay focused on it so the American people can stay focused on it. Because his success is his ability to win every damn new cycle and to get us distracted and moving in 25 different directions and to be overwhelmed by our evening that's coming out as 24-7. On this, we have to maintain our vigilance, focus, and our energy. And this has to be the issue that, I mean, this does, this not even, there's no margin on this issue.

There's right and wrong, daylight and darkness. This is foundational to the rule of law and what this country stands for. and it needs to be called out, and we need to be consistent about it. We're moving a little bit of a different direction here. I know that there's been a lot of topic on Ezra Klein's book, Abundance. And at the heart of this was this idea that for, you know, when we have a state like California, which is run by Democrats, for people to continue to have faith in the party more broadly, we want to make sure that the programs that we're putting forward actually

work, give people a reason that, yes, you've elected Democrats, but to continue electing Democrats to know that democratic policies can actually come to bear. And so can I have your reaction to, look, I know that that high speed rail, for example, was a major source of consternation. It was a major topic of that book itself because we started with this pie in the sky idea of, you know, L.A. to San Francisco that kind of already winnowed down a bit from Merced to to Bakersfield and even then continues to go over budget, the process continues to go slow. And so where do we stand on that issue, but more broadly the ability of California, which is largely a Democratic state, to be able to deliver for folks so that they have faith

in their leaders and that it doesn't just become a party where you elect Democrats because they're not this terrible party of Republicans, but because they can actually get something done. Well, so a couple of points. I had Ezra on my podcast for an hour. We discussed the book in detail. And I think it's, you know, first of all, I love the book and I love the framework. And I couldn't agree with it more. We got to get our act together. We got to deliver. It's not process. We're consumed by process. The world we invented is competing against us. And it's not just the world we invented. I mean, what I had to remind Ezra is a lot of the issues, the rules and regulations that he attached to the stress and frustration that is the high-speed rail. that goes back decades in California. So I want to remind people that as well. It's been batons, the three administrations that have been passed on that project. A lot of those were invented and supported by Republicans, going back to Ronald Reagan. And interestingly, Nixon himself, as it relates to some of the rules that he imposed federally that are impacting that project.

But I also want to make a point. And I think it needs to be made. 71% of the GDP in the United States of America emanates from blue counties. California is a donor state, 83.1 big. dollars a year. By the way, Texas takes $71.1 billion. We have more scientists, engineers, more Nobel laureates, more researches than any state in America. We convey more talent than any state in America. The UC, CSUs, and community college, where the fifth large economy in the world, 18% of the world's R&D emanates from California, more unicorn companies. Those are companies

with over a billion dollars. There's so much right about this state because of progressive governing principles and policies as well. And I were my people of that. We're also the center of innovation and entrepreneurialism and AI and discovery and pushing out the boundaries of that discovery every day in terms of our institutes of higher learning and our research facilities. But housing and regulation and nimbism has gotten in our way. Affordability is the original damn sin. And that's why I've signed 42 secret reform bills, which is why I completely align with Ezra on blowing through all these regulatory thickets, and I think this is a call to arms as Democrats and progressives, particularly on low-carbon green growth. You're not going to transition from an all-fossil fuel framework unless

we can build and go big, particularly on green energy. And that is an area. We have been very aggressive and will continue to be a final thing. We're laying dam tracks later this year on high-speed rail. We got 2,270 parcels now behind us. We got all those lawsuits done. We finished all the environmental work. So all that nonsense is behind us in a rear view. And now we're finally moving forward the first high-speed rail system of its type anywhere in the United States and America. And finally, Governor, let's finish off with this. I'm obviously here in Los Angeles. And this is a smaller issue than the big issues that we've been talking about. But I don't want to do a disservice to the city that I live in by not asking about this. And that is that the entertainment

industry here in L.A. has largely been gutted, and I think it's the result of the fact that a lot of other states wanted to lure our industry into their states. We've seen that happen in, you know, in Georgia with Atlanta has a booming entertainment industry, in New York, in New Mexico, in Louisiana, even in Canada, especially Canada. We have Toronto and Vancouver have become major destinations for the entertainment industry. So where do we stand in terms of bringing the industry back? Because, you know, there are full sound stages in, in, in, in, in, in, what were once booming, uh, booming, um, studio lots and, and that are completely empty right now. And I have friends in my own circles who, who have left the state and in some instances

left the country to find work, um, where, where there is more work. And so in terms of both bringing, bringing this, this industry back to L.A. that has really served as the basis for, for its, for its appeal. I mean, this is a, you know, I came here 15 years ago. This is, there's a ton of magic in this city. And it's largely owed to the fact. This is where this is the cultural hub of America, the cultural hub of the world in large part. And that's largely dissipated now in deference to other states. So in terms of bringing that back and specifically getting not just tax credits to try and lure it back, but doing something big and really taking a big swing to restore the industry back into the state.

Well, and look, back to my frame, the world we have been, it's competing against us. I mean, we're the entertainer capital of the world. And you're right. everybody else started to realize success leaves clues, and they started competing with us. And they started to induce these big, major tax incentives in their states to offset the costs of large productions. And Georgia is really the poster child for that. And I applaud them for being as aggressive as they have been. And they invest heavily in this space. New York. You mentioned New Mexico and some of these countries. And we didn't even get to the UK and others. New Zealand

in the past has been very aggressive. And other parts of the globe continue to be aggressive. So as you know recently, I decided, look, in despite of all the economic uncertainty, all the headwinds of Trump and Trumpism and these tariffs, everything else, we're not going to play on the margins anymore. And so we're taking a big swing and we're all in in the next 90 days. We're going to get it done to double our film tax credit to make adjustments. Because again, your point's not just about the tax credit. It's the how we actually apply the tax credit. We just announced 51, the largest number of grants we've ever provided in this. state for production. And it's about people like you. It's about the folks. It's the carpenters.

It's the caterers. It's the folks that are doing the set design. It's the ecosystem. It's a supply chain. And it's so it's so ingrained in who we are. And so the legislature, I've asked them, it's a big ask. I mean, it's billions and billions of dollars over the next decade that we're asking. And it's part and parts of a broader effort. There's a marketing effort. There's a larger campaign. There's more organized, intentional focus with the studio. and others and the unions, which are critical in this effort. The Teamsters are critical. IOTC and other unions are critical in this endeavor.

But look, we sent a strong signal to Hollywood, broadly described, Hollywood, L.A., the film industry, that they matter and we care. And we're going to step up in a way that no other state in America will, except, I submit, I acknowledge Georgia has. they will be our one last big target that's step two in this multi-year effort to get phelmy back to california well step one will be uh will definitely be welcome so governor look in the back to the broader question that we've been talking about i i appreciate you taking this fight to the trump administration that's something that i've uh you know if if there's one through line with everything i do right now it's it's finding folks and and platforming folks who uh spotlighting folks who are who are looking to fight back and that's exactly what we're seeing right now so i

I appreciate that, and I appreciate you taking the time today. It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on. No Lies brought to you by Fast Growing Trees. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the U.S. with thousands of different plants and over 2 million happy customers? They have all the plants your yard needs, like fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs, and so much more. Whatever plants you're interested in, fast-growing trees has you covered.

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This spring, they have the best deals for your yard, up to half off on select plants and other deals. to our show get 15% off their first purchase when using the code BTC at checkout. Now is the perfect time to plant. Use BTC to save today. Offer is valid for limited time, terms and conditions may apply. I'm joined now by the U.S. Senator from Maryland. Senator Van Hollen, thank you so much for joining me. Brian, it's good to be with you. Now, you're joining me from El Salvador, where you've made the effort to try and go to Sikot, to try and get a status report, set an update on Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia. Can you give an update as to where you stand right now in terms of what you've been able to accomplish?

Yes. I tried to visit Seacott this morning. This is the notorious prison in El Salvador, to which Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia was illegally abducted and put into. And I wanted to go check on his health, his well-being. So this morning, I drove to Seacot, but about three come up kilometers out from the prison, was pulled over on the side of the road by soldiers who told me they've been ordered not to allow me to continue on to the prison to visit Gilmar. What goes through your head when you're getting pulled over by soldiers in El Salvador in a country where clearly, you know, due process is in some major concern. And clearly they have no qualms about putting people into, oh, I don't know, a high security prison, even though they've

been charged or convicted with no crime? Well, you're right. I didn't really know what to expect. And so there was a lot of uncertainty about it. Clearly, you know, they got wind that I plan to come. And so they had this checkpoint that was well outside the perimeter. I was there with some others, including. including the lawyer who represents Kilmar's mother and his wife and a other group of us. So we talked with the soldiers, and they just repeatedly said that they'd been ordered not to allow us. I asked if they could let me know what the condition of Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia was, and they said they didn't know what his condition.

You know, the issue here, Brian, is nobody. And I mean, nobody from the outside has had any communication with him since he was illegally abducted by the Trump administration and sent to this prison, not his wife, not his mother, not his lawyers. So I was trying to at least set eyes on him to see what his situation was. And as I said, I was stopped at this roadblock and turned away. Senator, there is Trump saying that there's nothing he could do, that his hands are tied because, you know, he, now he's under the sovereign jurisdiction of El Salvador. And then you've got, and then you've got the reality of the situation, which is that the U.S. is actually paying to house these people in Seacot.

And so how do you reconcile these two things where it's clear that the only reason he's there is because he's, is because the United States, through our taxpayer dollars, are paying for him to be there. And yet, at the same time, the Trump administration is pretending that it's got no agency in all of this. Well, you put your finger right on the crux of the issue here, right? I mean, the Trump administration is clearly ignoring court orders to facilitate the return of Abrago Garcia. I asked the embassy here if they'd received any instructions from Washington to help facilitate his release. The answer was no, they, they haven't. And, you know, the Fourth Circuit today

issued a very strong and important decision, backing up the district court, where the court said it was, quote, shocking that the administration would take the position that having violated his due process rights and sent him out of the country to this prison, that they wouldn't be able to get him back. And on the El Salvadorian side,

I made the point to the vice president of El Salvador yesterday, that they really need to let him out of the prison because right now they are complicit, absolutely complicit in this illegal abduction scheme that has been hatched by the Trump administration. So we just need to keep pressure on both sides, keep speaking out. I made it clear to everybody here. I may be the first senator or first member of Congress here. I'm sure there will be others. Is there any concern that the Trump administration isn't going to be willing to even acquiesce to the ruling that was handed down by the Supreme Court, by the federal district court, and now reaffirmed by the Fourth Circuit panel, because he views this as a broader, as a broader metaphor for his immigration fight. And so he knows that if he capitulates even an inch here, then it's going to be viewed as weakness on the broader immigration topic. And so for that reason, he's just going to continue to abide by this Roy Cohn mentality

where he doesn't even give an inch despite what the courts say. So, yes, he may well try to continue to defy the court orders, right? Now they're trying to hang on this very thin read of their interpretation, although they admit that they have to facilitate the effort, but it's clear from the facts that they're not doing anything to implement that. right now. So this is why we also have to make sure that we put pressure on from every angle. I will say, and you made this point at the beginning, the Trump administration is planning to use $15 million of American taxpayer money in order to pay El Salvador to keep Kilmar in prison,

even though the U.S. courts have found that he's been illegally abducted and detained. So I'm certainly not going to vote for one penny for that purpose. And the appropriations process going forward this year will be an opportunity to talk about this. But look, we need to keep the spotlight on this. You know, El Salvador right now is in violation of international law that requires that lawyers be able to communicate with people who have been locked up. And that's when they're been, even when they're convicted criminals. In this case, they haven't brought any criminal charges against him. So you're right about the Trump administration's goal. They want to conflate this with their overall immigration policy. I think we need to be very clear as to what

this is about. This is about protecting due process. And if you don't protect the due process of this individual, then you can forget about the due process rights of everybody else who resides in America because what bullies and authoritarian do is they pick on the weak link first. But this would just open the door as it's already been open, but this would open the floodgates to tyranny in America. Right. And we don't even have to guess, by the way, because we saw Trump discuss with President Buckele of El Salvador in the Oval Office that homegrowns are next, meaning he is open to and looking forward to sending American citizens to, to, to, to, you know, to. to these foreign gulags somewhere, wherever he can find a willing partner. So again, this isn't

even conjecture. This is him, this is us just abiding by his own words, listening to what he is saying in broad daylight. In terms of keeping the spotlight on this, I know that there have been some rumblings from your colleagues in the Senate and also Democratic members of the House about also going to El Salvador, do you have any indication as to whether some of those folks are going to join you there and add to the chorus of voices who are pushing for his return? I do believe others are planning to come. I've talked to them. I don't know their exact timing and, you know, I'll let them announce their plans. But I told the vice president of El Salvador very directly that I expect more people to come. And it puts El Salvador in this untenable

position to say the reason they're illegally keeping this person, Tomar in their prison is simply because they're being paid off by the Trump administration. And I don't think that's a good look for El Salvador. Now, the president of El Salvador might not care about this at this moment, but my view is if we keep the pressure on, it will. And I also have to ask just, you know, because this seems like the obvious question here, but are you safe by virtue of being there? I believe I'm safe.

I appreciate, you know, the efforts of the security folks at the American embassy. And, you know, we're taking all the necessary precautions. But as you indicated the beginning, I mean, there is some risk to this, but I do think this is a moment where all of us need to take some risks to protect our due process rights to protect the Constitution. And the Fourth Circuit, and I urge every American to read that decision today, really put this squarely on the line. They said the Trump administration is violating the due process clause of the Constitution, which goes to the heart and foundation of our constitutional rights and architecture. And I just got to ask about that real quick,

because we had the Supreme Court rule unanimously for the release of Garcia, then that gets kicked back to the district court to be able to facilitate that release. Trump appeals that up to the Fourth Circuit panel. They agree with both the Supreme Court and the federal district court, and so there's nowhere else for Trump to go now. And so what happens here? I mean, is this pretty much the Trump administration getting ready to tee up a true legal constitutional crisis where there is no other avenue to appeal, because if you appeal from the Fourth Circuit back up to the Supreme Court, Supreme Court's not going to change their mind. They've already spoken on this issue. And so this is a moment where we either have to recognize that we have an executive branch that is

bound by legal rulings that have been handed down by the Supreme Court, or we have an executive branch that views itself as above these rulings that are handed down by the Supreme Court. Well, that's right. Look, it's possible the Trump administration will appeal the Fourth Circuit ruling because what Judge Zinnis just did was she said to the administration, the Supreme Court has ruled nine to zero that you have an obligation to facilitate the return of Abrago Garcia. It's pretty clear they're not doing that. And so what she did was begin to order depositions, right, where Trump administration's officials are going to have to testify under oath as to what they're doing to facilitate

his return. Well, they don't like that. And so they appealed that decision to the Fourth Circuit. And the Fourth Circuit is now unanimously, the panel of the Fourth Circuit has backed up Judge Zinnis with very powerful language. So they may try to take it back to the Supreme Court, but after that nine, nothing ruling. I don't see how the Supreme Court has any alternative but the back up the Fourth Circuit and the federal district court judge because they are violating.

I mean, the Trump administration is violating the due process rights of this. individual, and that opens the door, that just opens the door to violating the due process rights of everyone who lives in America. So this is a very important moment for the future of our Constitution and for our country. Well, perfectly put, we'll leave it there. Again, Senator, you know, I just want to thank you on behalf of people who are watching right now, knowing that this moment requires big swings, this moment requires, like you said, putting your own safety at risk, and that's exactly what you're doing here. So we appreciate you doing that and meeting this moment with the urgency that it

deserves. So we will, of course, stay on top of this story, but I appreciate you taking the time today. Thank you. Thanks for checking in. I'm joined now by the host of Potsay of America, John Favro. Favs, thanks for joining. Thanks for having me. So we're in this moment right now where, of course, the biggest story in the country is the deportation and refusal to import Abrego Garcia, the wrongly deported migrant who the Supreme Court ruled nine to nothing has to be returned to the U.S. Curious right now, because this is obviously part of Trump's broader immigration agenda. And even at a moment where he's completely underwater on the economy, I think a recent CNN

poll showed him underwater 29 points among independence on the economy, so completely cratering on one of the two of his strongest tenants here, immigration is still something that he's strong on. And so there is some reporting that even some Democrats behind the scenes are saying, like, this is what Trump does. He's setting Democrats up to talk about the one thing that he's strongest on, and of course, Democrats take the bait. So I'm curious in this moment, because this isn't just any immigration story, right? This is Trump defying the U.S. Supreme Court so that he could disappear a legal resident to a foreign gulag. And so I'm curious where you stand on this. Is this

something that Democrats should be speaking on, or is this some grand distraction? I think if you're not speaking on it, I don't know why you're in public office right now. I don't know why you're in politics because I think this is it I understand why people think about it as an immigration story or a deportation story but it's not about those things it's about whether we want to live in a free country where our rights are protected and we can't get rounded up and disappear to a foreign prison or you know we we live in a police state where that happens let's deal with the politics first it is true that his overall approval rating on handling immigration is still probably his strongest issue, though even that has come down quite a bit from when he was inaugurated.

When you break that down, though, and you get into the specifics of what people support, and G. Eliot Morris, who had been at 538, had a really helpful chart, just sort of compiling all the polling on individual aspects of immigration. So by huge majorities, people don't think that, obviously, U.S. citizens who are convicted of crime should be in foreign prisons. They don't believe that immigrants should be deported without due process. They don't believe they should be deported if they haven't committed a crime. And they also, by the way, don't believe that immigrants should be deported if they've been

here for 10 years and have worked and followed the law. So forget about potential crime, due process, four prisons, all that. That's just like regular immigration policy. So I think where his support is coming from is people had a genuine concern about the border under Biden, about the influx of migrants and asylum seekers, and the fact that our immigration system could not adjudicate those claims fast enough. And so a lot of those migrants were sent to various cities and they strain public resources and all that. So I think that's where the political support is coming from. But aside from like Donald Trump's core supporters, people do not support what he has been doing. They do not support ripping student visas away from students for writing an op-ed or, you know, kicking out legal residents or just they just stopped a guy at the airport who has a U.S. citizen and started searching his phone.

And then someone else was coming back from Canada, U.S. citizen for 10 years. and they detained him and put him in handcuffs and searched his phone. I mean, it's absurd. And I think the reason that the Trump administration is doing this is they could have an immigration regime where they deported a lot more undocumented immigrants than Joe Biden did. And they do have the authority to do that. The president does have a broad authority and a lot of power over immigration. But what the president doesn't have is the power to round up people off the street,

throw them in the back of a van, send them to a foreign country. country into a foreign prison into a fucking gulag there and then say oh can't bring him back or even if we acknowledge that we made a mistake can't bring them back so knowing that he has all of this leeway that he had all this political capital to expand on his strongest issue and knowing that he could actually do what he said he was going to do and go after these undocumented hardened criminals why within the first 100 days of your administration do you go after legal residents who have no crime. Do you go after American citizens? Do you go after elementary school? I mean, kids are getting plucked out of fucking elementary school and getting detained. And there was, you know,

their anecdotal instances where the whole town had to band together to get these kids out of detention centers because they're getting pulled out of their schools. And so why expend your political capital, knowing that what you were doing would already have the vast majority of support among your base and probably a good swath of the American people to instead do something that, to your exact point, and to Elliot Morris's point isn't going to have any semblance of broad support. So I think, I can't get inside their minds.

I was just going to say not to tell you to get inside of Trump's head. But here's a few possibilities. One possibility is that they don't give a shit about public opinion. And when you're doing this many deportations

at once and you're trying to have these minutes, you're going to make a ton of mistakes and they just don't care. Right. about the mistakes because they also don't want to back down from anything. Never apologize, never say you're wrong, never back down. I also think Stephen Miller is running this. Stephen Miller doesn't like legal immigrants, not just undocumented immigrants.

He said that he wants less legal immigration. He said during the first Trump term and then during the campaign, Stephen Miller has talked about the next step being denaturalizations, which is people who are citizens of the United States, they're going to put through proceedings to take. strip away the citizenship. And this is very hard to do. It's quite a long process. But one of the reasons you can strip away someone's citizenship is if they committed fraud on their form when they tried to become a citizen or if they engaged in terrorism, which is important because now you're seeing the Trump administration starting to say everything is terrorism. If you burn a

Tesla, you're terrorists. You reverse engineer a rationale for them to be able to then point to be so that you can round up the most people under that rationale. And yes. And then the darkest possibility, is that they want to run a country more like a totalitarian state, more like a police state, where not only immigrants, but anyone who disagrees with them, anyone who challenges them, could be deported, could be stripped of their citizenship, could be detained, and what they want to do is just pick a few people

and they like the attention they're getting on this because they want to scare the shit out of everyone else. They want to scare immigrants, they want to scare people who may challenge the administration. And by lifting up these stories, they don't know, it's not because they think it's a, I heard someone say like, oh, the Trump administration wants to be talking about this. I think they do want to be talking about this, but not necessarily because they are secure and how popular it is. I think they want to be talking about this because they want people scared.

Right. It has a chilling effect. And they know that. I'm curious about the implications now of the fact that this is all being done in defiance of a Supreme Court ruling. Again, already bizarre that The hill they would choose to die on would be something where they would tack right on Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. This was a unanimous ruling against the Trump administration. So when you position yourself to the right of those two guys on the Supreme Court, I think that shows the extent to which you've lost the plot. But how are you thinking about this now? We had this conversation about the prospect of a constitutional crisis. And there are two ways to think about this.

One, from the legal perspective, it doesn't happen until the Supreme Court issues are rule. ruling that the executive branch opts to defy. But the other one is just, more broadly speaking, and of fucking course, we're in a constitutional crisis because of literally everything that Trump is looking to do. But in any case, now both of those buckets are full. Now, now, you know, whether you're talking legally or not, we're clearly there. And so how are you thinking about this in terms of, you know, next steps living in a country where it's clear by virtue of what he's doing that Trump wants to usurp all power from the judicial branch and the legislative branch sees himself as all powerful and isn't going to let any rulings or decisions handed down from

a co-equal branch of government stop him from what he wants to do. I think we're going to find out because there's one more turn here, which is this will end up back at the Supreme Court, I think, because the Supreme Court could have written a decision where they said, you must bring him home. You must take every step to bring him home. home. Just do it, right? What the Supreme Court said is the lower court order properly requires the government to facilitate his release. Everyone's been saying return, but it's facilitate his release from this prison, and then handle his case as it would have been handled had they not made this mistake, right? So, and then they said, the lower court also says

effectuate his release and that they have to be more specific about and you do have to have deference to the administration's conduct of foreign affairs. So it may exceed that, but we'll leave that to the lower court. But the part that they're not leaving to the lower court and they're just saying yes to is you have to take steps to facilitate his release. Yeah. The Trump administration then used the court trying to say, well, this you've got to be clearer on and there is some deference to foreign affairs. They've used that to be like, oh, we will. We actually won 9-0. So they're very, it's interesting because they,

the Trump administration did not want to say the Supreme Court made its decision and now let them enforce it, which is J.D. Vance's favorite line attributed to Andrew Jackson that he has said before. So they didn't say that. So they're not like openly defying the Supreme Court. They're doing something even more sinister and frustrating,

which is just pretending that the Supreme Court order is in their favor and saying that, oh, well, they want us to, The Supreme Court order, like, we're not going to go into El Salvador and bring this guy back home and return him. It's like, well, they're not saying. They would actually, if they open the door of that prison and let the man and let Garcia walk out of the prison into El Salvador, the Supreme Court order would be fulfilled. Yeah.

That would be it. They don't even, they would be like, he's not going to come back here and live in Maryland again, blah, blah, blah. You know what? If Garcia comes back here, the Trump administration can deport him. They can go through deportation proceedings and if, and he'll get his day. in court, but if they find it, they could just deport him again to El Salvador maybe or to a third country. But he wouldn't be locked up in prison for the rest of his life. So I do think on the constitutional crisis, like this will get back to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will

have to decide like, hey, man, all of you got to be a little more specific. Now, maybe they weren't a specific in that first ruling because that's how they got it to be unanimous, right? There was, there was no noted dissents, right, because it wasn't like a 9-0 decision because it was an unsigned report, but there was no noted dissent. So everyone was. But to get that, agreement, you wonder if they had to be a little more circumspect. I think when it comes back to the Supreme Court, then the Supreme Court's going to have to make a real decision, are they going to draw the red line? And they could be unwilling to draw the red line, at least they have up to this point, because they are worried, Roberts might be worried that if they draw the red line and then

Trump goes over the red line, then that's it, and there's no turning back. And that's the, I mean, you're right, we're in like a rolling constitutional crisis, but that is the moment where the Supreme Court is very specific about what Trump needs to do, and then Trump says no. the notion that John Roberts would not put forward a specific ruling for fear of the executive branch defying the Supreme Court is a constitutional crisis unto itself. If you are basically falling victim to the same chilling effect that Trump is trying to put forward to everybody else and you are a co-equal branch of government, then that's the whole ballgame right there. Then that is the courts basically bowing to Trump and basically saying, you know, we are afraid that you won't comply. And so as a result of

that we are not going to put us in the position where you have the opportunity to do that publicly. Yeah. And they have not done that yet. And maybe Roberts is thinking, I got to pick my moments and I got to pick the moment where I really have to draw the line and this isn't it. And maybe Roberts and some others on the court were surprised that the Trump administration wouldn't even say, which they could, by the way, he couldn't on this. They could have said, we took a bunch of steps. And this bouquet guy, he is just, he is not releasing him and he said he wouldn't. And he said that it would interfere with our diplomacy and our relations with this country

and it's too, we can't, they didn't even try to do that. They're just basically saying, like, that's not what the order says. Right. I mean, and what we saw from that, from that meeting between those two guys in the Oval Office was just, I mean, it was such mockery. Yeah. The fact that it was so, like, tongue and cheek, like, they were just like

winking and nudging, nodding to each other, like, oh, we could, I couldn't, I couldn't, could you do it? You couldn't do it. I, like, I couldn't possibly do it. It was just, it's just such, anybody who buys into it, it's K-Fabe. Like, it's like watching WWE. I mean, everybody knows that they're playing make-believe. And, of course, we're watching it play out.

And some, and I guess the, you know, the media has to abide, like, has to write headlines and pretend that this is all real. Everybody knows what's happening. The MAGA defenders of this and from J.D. Vance, who keeps tweeting about it to everyone on Fox all day long, what they're not contending with, what they refuse to contend with. This is not about the president's power to deport people who are here. illegally. It's not even about, which, which, you know, I would agree with a lot, I would disagree with a lot of those desportations. It's not even about the, you know, the president's ability or the administration's ability to take away a green card or, or take away a student visa, which again, I'm disagreeing with. It's about this fucking prison. Like, if, if Garcia had been deported to a

third country, right? Because he was, he was legally protected from being deported to El Salvador. But if he was deported to a third country, he missed his family. It would be sad. Maybe he would have a case. But people would not be making his bigger deal. They are sending these people, and it's not just Garcia. It's hundreds of people, right, who they promise would be the worst of the worst gang members, right? We know that most of the people who are in this prison have no criminal records.

Some of there by mistake. We know that Garcia is there by mistake. The reason this is a big deal is because this is the only one that the administration admitted in court that they screwed up. But there's so many stories of others, right? And why is the United States sending, condemning immigrants, legal immigrants, some who are legally, some are not, but regardless, condemning them to a life sentence in a prison that has been known for starvation and torture where when you walk in, the guards reportedly say you're not walking out alive or you're not walking out because we're going to either

starve you or kill you or something like that, what are we sending people there for? That is fucking crazy. They should shut the prison down. The prison is unconstitutional. The prison is illegal. That is the problem because everyone's going to know. Is Garcia a good guy? Is this a good guy?

We're sending people to a concentration camp. That's what we're doing with no due process. Right. And to your exact point, I mean, if there's one issue that we should go to bat for, it's That's what I'm saying. That Democrat who was like, oh, taking the baits. First of all, put your fucking name on your statement if you're going to talk to Axis about that. Because your constituent should know who you are.

So then when someone primaries you, they can. can know what their choices between two candidates. And it's also just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, same time. As if you can't walk and chew gum at the same time, as if you can't condemn this, this, this, this moral atrocity that's happening under our noses. And, yeah, it's wrong on the politics. Right. It's just wrong on the politics. That's not how people do this. Perfectly put. Well, we'll leave it there. For anybody watching right now, if you want to support independent media more broadly, on the left, uh, where we, where we are contending with, you know,

a major right-wing onslaught here. Please make sure to subscribe to Pot Save America's YouTube channel. I'm going to put the link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Favs, appreciate your time. Thanks, man. Now we've got former public health official, the former host of the America Dissected podcast,

and a good friend of mine, Abdul Al-Sayed. Abdul, thank you so much for taking the time. Ryan, it is always a privilege to join you. Thank you so much for having me. Well, thanks, thanks. Now, I wanted to bring you on because I know that you have an announcement that you wanted to make.

so floor is yours i do brian thank you so much look i think folks are super frustrated with what they're seeing out of dc you see elon musk and in donald trump like that literally the two worst players uh in the worst video game you ever played trying to destroy real things that help people you ask where do we go from here who are the leaders who are willing to step up and speak truth to power but also willing to speak truth to pain and so i've been over the last several months having conversations with folks across my state, thinking a little bit about where we go from here. And most recently, our U.S. Senator Gary Peters announced that he was retiring after a long and storied career. So I've made the decision to jump into the race for U.S. Senate. So I'll be

running for U.S. Senate here in Michigan, and I'll be running to make sure that in the richest, most powerful country in the world, that we do things about how hard it has gotten to live in this country, whether you're talking about the ability to afford your groceries or to to get your kid child care, or to see a doctor and not get hit by medical bills that'll send you into collections. Those are challenges that everybody faces. And we have to be answering those questions. And I believe as a two-time public health official who's made my career building agencies that deliver for folks, somebody who's advocated for public health and health care in a moment when too few people feel like they have access to them,

I think I have an opportunity here to continue a conversation I started with Michiganders back in 2018 when I ran for governor. And I believe that when we listen, when we learn what is giving folks anxiety when they look in their kids' eyes or as they're trying to fall asleep, when we deliver real solutions that are focused and tailored to the challenges of working people and not to what some corporate megadoner thinks, I think we can win. And not only can I get elected to the U.S. Senate, but more importantly, we can take back the Senate, take back our government and deliver for real people. What gives you the faith at a moment right now where the Democratic Party polls low, obviously had a bad election cycle, lost the House, the Senate, and the White House, and folks have little faith in the party as it stands right now. And so what drives you in this moment where there's really so little overtly to have faith in on the left? I think there are three things.

That, number one, I think the frustration that Michiganders in particular, but frankly, people all over this country have is they don't feel like politicians are listening to them. And there was one thing that Trump got right is that he was speaking to the pain that people are experiencing in their lives. Now, when it comes to Trump, as you well know and have covered ad nauseum on your podcast and your channel,

that when it comes to Trump, it's always self-serving, it's always ham-fisted, and it's always chaotic. And so he never had any answers. But he was speaking to that frustration and that anger, and he was curdling it into, cynicism. I know that we have far better solutions to the challenges that people face in their lives if we're willing to show up and listen, but we're willing to actually articulate solutions to problems. And I think the frustration that we have is you hear a lot about Democrats looking

for a message. Like, look, the message is right here. It should be on your heart. It should be what you feel when you see what he's doing and what you say then to people about what you want to do about it. And when we do that, we win. I also know that he's vastly overreating his mandate. I mean, He's fundamentally running roughshod over our Constitution, disappearing people off the street for the great crime of signing their name to an op-ed, destroying our global economy only then to turn around and give a stock tip to his billionaire buddy so that they can make $300 billion collectively, even while the rest of our 401ks and our retirements took a hit. And laugh about it.

Laugh about it in the Oval Office. Exactly. It's like a sick joke to him. because he never really cared about us. So if we do this work, I know that we can take back the House, we can take back to Senate, and in 2028 we can take back the presidency, but we've got to fight back. And to get fight back well, you've got to have something to fight for. You hear a lot of folks saying, oh, we're going to fight back against Trump and Musk.

And you're like, okay, so back to where? Like, where, I mean, the frustration I often have is like Democrats, we have our own vision of Make America Great Again. It's like 2015 before Trump descended down the escalator. Yeah. So, like, you've got to give people a positive real view of what the future can yet be and then inspire them to work toward that future. If we do that, I know we win. I'm going to press you on the fighting aspect. If for no other reason than the fact that this

has been like my entire raison d'etra in the lead up to the 2026 cycle is I think it's important to have Democrats who will actually fight and will actually use the tools at their disposal and tools that we don't know are at their disposal because we have been saddled with a Democratic Party for too long that still operates like it's, like it's politics in the year 1999. I mean, we have seen the ways in which not only Democrats are weak and slow to respond, but the ways in which Republicans know that they're going to be weak and slow to respond. And so it's baked into the cake that they will just control the narrative,

that they will be able to rewrite the rules in their favor. It's why we have Amy Coney Barrett on the Supreme Court and not Merrick Garland. It's why, you know, effectively everything we do in terms of messaging is, allowing the right to dictate what the message is going to be from the days of, okay, we didn't respond quick enough after the ACA was passed, Republicans branded at death panels and killed the Democrats in the 2010 midterms, all the way to today where a plane crashes and Democrats don't fill that void and Republicans do, and suddenly it's the fault of DEI and everything in between. And so in terms of your ability and willingness to fight, can you just dig into that

a little bit more in light of the fact that we have had a Democratic Party for so long that has been utterly unwilling to actually wield the tools at their disposal. Yeah. Well, Brian, I really appreciate both all you've done to remind us what we're fighting for and all your audience has been doing to fight back. And yeah, we got to fight back. And look, we've got some folks in elected office who've forgotten that there is a procedural part of the job and then there's a leadership part of the job. And you got elected to do both. And just because the procedural part doesn't give you very many options doesn't mean that the leadership part goes away. And I think you're reminding folks of that every single day.

I'll tell you, look, my name is Abdul, which if you haven't put together by now is not the best political name. But it also means that you learn some things about being someone who doesn't always fit in just as a function of your name. And I moved around quite a lot when I was a little kid. And I used to tell my parents on the first day of school in a new school, look, I'm going to have to get in a fight today, right? Because I learn pretty quickly that if you let the bully take your lunch money, you're never going to eat lunch. so I don't back down and I know how to fight with the best of them. But I also know that you have to know what you're fighting for. It's not just about fighting back to fight back.

It's about fighting back because we believe in something that is bigger and better than what you are doing to our federal government and what you're doing to our society. And so you can't beat something with nothing, right? And so we've got to know what that something is and we've got to feel it in our hearts and in our bones. And I think when we do that and we fight for that vision, Folks see that in us, and that's how you're able to build the kind of movement that builds toward the future.

And the worry I have is that for a long time, we've had this fundamental schism between what our voters want, working people in communities all over this country, including right here in Michigan, and what donors want, corporations who continue to want to have access to politicians to make sure that everything works for them. And when you can't find an easy way to make them happy, what tends to happen is you end up finding a least common denominator, which has you saying nothing at all. And then you're told to say it with enthusiasm. So you are saying nothing enthusiastically, which makes you sound completely crazy and out of touch. And so my point is, forget the donors for a minute, right?

Go talk to people. Ask them about the challenges in their life. Talk to those problems and say it like you mean it. And if you do that, that's how you ignite the fight. That's how you bring people together. and say, you know what? We can beat him, right? Because we've got something we know we are working toward a world where all of us don't have to keep fighting where we can come together as communities in an inclusive hole that makes us greater than the sum of our parts. That's what we got to fight for.

So yes, fight back like hell. Don't let them eat your lunch. Don't let them take your lunch. And if they come after you, you fight like hell. But also remember what you're fighting for. I love that because so often it feels like, especially when it comes to the U.S. Senate, like we send these people in who then fight for the procedural elements of the Senate, but not the thing that they're in the Senate to do. And so it so often feels like we're fighting, you know, we've got folks who, you know, who, you know, the more conservative members of the Democratic Party, not to pick on, well, fuck it, who cares. Kirsten Sinema was there fighting for, to, to preserve the filibuster. And it's like, are you there to defend the filibuster? Or are you there to actually fight for, for what the

Senate, what Democrats, Senate Democrats are supposed to be doing. And it feels like so often people are just preserving or defending the institutions as opposed to the reason that they're in those institutions, which is to make some change, make sure that people have access to health care, make sure that reproductive rights are protected, make sure that climate change is combated, all the things that you get elected ostensibly to do, but that often seems to go away as people kind of get sucked into the machinery that is our government and feel like they become cogs in that machine as opposed to still, you know, in work. in defense of the people that they represent. I do want to dig into the fact that, you know,

you were, as you said, a two-time health official and we've got a health care crisis in this country. And we're at a moment right now where it does seem like Republicans, whether through this MAHA movement, whether through RFK Jr., are co-opting health and wellness in this country. And so I'm curious from your perspective what your thoughts are on that and how Democrats regain our footing on an issue that clearly has long since been championed by the left. Yeah. We should be the leads on health care and public health in this country. But I'll tell you what happened.

Over the course of COVID-19, we in public health were out there trying to get folks to take a vaccine that hadn't existed a year ago for a disease that they didn't necessarily have yet. Yeah. Meanwhile, a lot of folks in our country can't afford basic insulin despite the fact that they know they need it because they have diabetes. Now, it's a, it's a difficult thing, right? When you know there's a medicine you need and you cannot afford it and somebody else who ostensibly is supposed to be the person who's fighting for your health care is coming to you with a new medication that didn't exist a year ago. And we don't often think about the fact that if you're not out there

fighting for the things that people know they need, then when you show up and say, hey, this is a thing that I think you need. How are they going to trust you? Right. Exactly. And so we have to be about guaranteed health insurance for everybody. It's the reason I co-wrote the book on Medicare for All. And not only that, but in our public health agencies, we got to be out there fighting the fight for public health in times when there aren't crises. That's why when I was director of Wayne County's Department of Health, Human, and Veteran Services up until just a few weeks ago, we were out there erasing medical debt for upwards of 300,000 people, 700 million dollars of medical debt, because you shouldn't have to be saddled with the cost of debt to go

and see a doctor if and when you get sick. We were putting Narcan, life-saving, anti-overdose reversal medication in places all over the county. We were putting glasses on kids' faces. Those are things that folks understand as tangible. They're like, you are solving a problem. I know I have.

So when you show up and you tell me I got a problem, I don't see coming yet, you know, I know you're going to be there for me and that you're telling me the truth. And by the way, that is indicative of a larger, there's a larger trust problem within the Democratic Party, a larger credibility problem within the Democratic Party that most Democrats don't haven't afforded themselves much credibility except for people like Bernie Sanders. And if you look at Bernie Sanders,

and this isn't, look, I know there's going to be people who are watching who are moderate. There's people who are watching who are progressive. But the reality is that regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, that Democrats haven't built themselves enough credibility, except for people who have been repeating the same message for decades like Bernie. And that's why he is drawing the crowds that he is right now. Now, I really appreciate your point. And I want to say something about labels because I think, you know, I spent some time in my life studying things that are really, really complicated. Politics just shouldn't be that complicated, right? And we get caught up in our labels, like, are you progressive, are you a moderate? And to me, the question really is,

are you fighting for working people? And can they see that you're fighting for them? And can you explain how the things you're doing with the power that they give you is shaping their lives for the better. And if you can't do that, then maybe politics is not for you. But like, the truth of the matter is, is that Bernie has been talking about the challenges that working people face before you and I were even a twinkle in our parents' eyes. Right. And so when he shows up at 83 years old in your town telling you that you deserve guaranteed health insurance and that this economy has been rigged and is getting more rigged by people like like Elon Musk and Donald Trump, you kind of believe him because you're like

dude's been saying the same thing for a long time. And you know what? Everything he foresaw kind of happened. And you know, when I ran in 2018 for governor, I said something I think people were just not quite ready to believe at the time. And that was that Donald Trump wasn't the disease, he was the worst symptom of the disease. And the disease had to be something, right, that is bigger than Donald Trump. And it's the corruption of our politics by billionaires, oligarchs, and corporations in ways that leave us with less and less, even as they get more and more. They monetize us, right? Profiteer off of our illness when we get sick. Profiteer off our eyeballs when it comes to the incentives of huge tech corporations. And that's just two examples. And

if we're serious about addressing the situation that Trump exploited to get elected, in 2015 and again in 2024, we got to be serious about owning up to the fact that, unfortunately, too often we get watered down by that same politics because you wouldn't want to say something that pissed off a, I don't know, health insurance CEO when you talk about guaranteed health insurance, when your vision doesn't include them in it, because, well, that CEO is making $18 million. Every single one of them was a dollar that somebody like you or me spent to get our family health insurance, not to buy him a yacht in Florida.

Right. Abdul, how can my viewers and listeners help your campaign? Well, I really appreciate that, Brian. Go to abdulforsenet.com. If you want to volunteer with us, please. If you're in Michigan, host us as a House party, I'd love to come to your home. And for everybody else out there, chip us a couple bucks, five bucks, 10 bucks, 15 bucks. We need you.

I don't take money from corporate packs, if that's not clear. And they wouldn't want to give me money anyway. And so I need it from you. So I do hope that folks will come forward, step forward, be a part of what we're building here because this is bigger than, bigger than Michigan, even bigger than party politics. This is about the future of our country. And if we don't have an affirmative vision, I worry about where Trump and Musk are going to continue to drag us backwards.

Well, look, I couldn't be more excited the fact that you jumped into this race. You have been a clear and strong voice throughout the entirety of our friendship and this entire process here, both for your first campaign in 2018 and now. So very excited that you've thrown your hat into the ring and really excited to see where this campaign goes. Highly recommend for those who are watching and listening right now, please help donate, volunteer, whatever you can to help this campaign and help elevate some voices who are the future of the Democratic Party here and who very well should be. So, Abdul, I appreciate your time today and best luck in the campaign trail.

Brian, thank you. Thank you for the fight that you put up every single day. I know how hard you work. Y'all, you know, you don't see all the work in the background that folks like Brian and his team are putting in to make sure that we stay educated about what's happening and that we keep the fight forward. So, Brian, thank you. and to all of you who are part of Brian's movement, I hope that she'll join ours

because we're working for the same goal, which is a country that is more fair, more equal, and a place where all of us, no matter who we are, get the opportunity to thrive. And we deserve it, and we can have it. Thanks again to Governor Newsom, Senator Van Hollen, Favs, and Abdul. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen,

produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas. Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating and a review. And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to Brian Tyler Cohen.com to learn more.