No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Brian presses Georgia's Republican Lt. Governor on his state's voter suppression bill

Episode Date: September 12, 2021

Biden mandates vaccines for roughly 100 million Americans, and there is a promising update on the For The People Act. Brian interviews the Republican Lt. Governor of Georgia, Geoff Duncan. And the new president of the AFL-CIO, Liz Shuler, joins to talk about the top priorities of the biggest federation of unions in the country Donate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Biden's vaccine mandate for businesses and the GOP's response to it and a pretty exciting update about the For the People Act. I interview someone on the right, which doesn't happen often, the lieutenant governor of Georgia, Jeff Duncan, about his own state's voter suppression bill SB202 and the future of the Republican Party. And I'm joined by the new president of the AFL-CIO, Liz Schuller, to talk about the top priorities of the biggest federation of unions in the country. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. With COVID cases having risen about 300% from this time last year, even despite a vaccine

being readily available, Joe Biden's issued a sweeping new vaccine mandate, requiring all employers with more than 100 employees to either be vaccinated or test weekly for the virus, which will cover about 80 million Americans. Vaccines are also going to be mandatory at health care facilities that receive federal Medicare or Medicaid, totaling another 17 million workers. And finally, the mandate extends to employees of the executive branch and all contractors who do business with the federal government. So in total, roughly 100 million people are going to be affected by this mandate.

And before I get into anything else, here is the most important point here. These mandates work. Consider the fact that most vaccines are compulsory for public schools. In the 1970s, there were tens of thousands of cases of measles. By 2005, after the measles vaccine became mandatory in schools, there were 66. And that's not to mention vaccines for polio, detap, mumps, rebella, hepatitis B, all of which aren't an issue. issue in this country because, again, vaccine mandates work. I mean, just look at today. San Francisco schools have reported zero COVID outbreaks after 90% of eligible students got vaccinated. Compared

that with Florida, with no mandates, where schools aren't able to stay open for more than a few days because thousands upon thousands of students and staff were getting infected. And yet, that hasn't stopped the right from having its collective fainting spell over this move by Biden, calling it a gross abuse of power. And just on a human level here, Imagine getting angrier over a solution to a pandemic than a pandemic itself. We've lost 660,000 Americans. It's the third biggest mass casualty events in American history. Imagine having seen more Americans die than in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and Korea

combined, and thinking that the issue here is the vaccine. A vaccine, by the way, that is proven to be safe and save lives. The CDC just came out with findings from a major study showing that the unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to die of COVID, and 10 times more likely to be hospitalized. How much more proof are we waiting for? What else do we need? We're coming up on a year that it's been available. There are about 200 million Americans who've gotten the shot, not to mention the billions

of people across the world who've gotten it. They're surviving at an exponentially higher rate than the unvaccinated. The vaccine is FDA approved. We have the information we need. So at this point, there is no legitimate or scientific or medical reason not to get the vaccine. There's just a political reason. and we've lost our collective patients allowing this pandemic to spread because Republicans want to turn everything into a culture war.

And that's a sentiment that was echoed by Biden himself. My message to unvaccinated Americans is this. What more is there to wait for? What more do you need to see? We've made vaccinations free, safe and convenient. The vaccine has FDA approval. Over 200 million Americans have guns. gotten at least one shot. We've been patient, but our patients is wearing thin, and your refusal

has cost all of us. So please do the right thing, but just don't take it from me. Listen to the voices of unvaccinated Americans who are lying in hospital beds, taking their final breath saying, if only I'd gotten vaccinated. If only. It's a tragedy. Please don't let it become yours. By the way, people agree with him. And I'm not just talking about Democrats.

There was polling in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, all the swing states asking if they favored or opposed major corporations requiring employees and contractors to provide proof of vaccination. And it was 68 to 32 in favor in Arizona, 63 to 37 in favor in Georgia, 61 to 39 in favor in Michigan, 64 to 36 in favor in Pennsylvania, and 68 to 32 in favor in Wisconsin. People are tired. They are tired of this pandemic. They're tired of their neighbors dying. But more tellingly, they're tired of being mired in this perpetual cycle that's only being prolonged by people on one side of the political spectrum. The way to end this is not to

march in the streets and yell freedom. It's to get people vaccinated. If you oppose the vaccine, then you are helping the virus spread. The fact is that we need to be done letting a dangerous minority dictate the terms of this conversation just because they're loud. Watching Americans die now, still in September of 2021,

is not worth appeasing a shrinking faction of Americans who think that a life-saving vaccine is going to make you magnetized. It's just not worth it anymore. It's not worth it. So we have to make a decision. Are we trying to ensure that people survive? Or are we trying to placate people

who, frankly, don't want to be placated. If it's the former, then ignore the noise and just get this done because we have wasted too much time and lost too many lives to listen to professional provocateurs or just the outright ignorant, even a second longer. We know how to end this. So good on Biden for taking aggressive steps to get it done. Next up, obviously a topic close to my heart before the People Act. And we actually have some movement here. And it's actually something that's really promising. So it turns out that a group of Senate Democrats is nearing an agreement on a compromise version of S-1 and that the effort was led by Joe Manchin along with Chuck Schumer.

The other senators involved were Amy Klobuchar, Jeff Merkley, Raphael Warnock, Alex Padilla, Angus King, Tim Kane, and John Tester. Now, you'll remember that in June, Joe Manchin issued a listed provisions that he would support within the For the People Act. And it did include a number of provisions that are already in the original legislation. And that includes early voting, automatic voter registration, bans on dark money, and most importantly, limits to partisan gerrymandering. It even includes some voter ID, which, by the way, is fine. I've spoken about this before. The issue with voter ID isn't that Democrats aren't willing to show any ID. It's the disparity in terms of what's acceptable ID or not. When you have gun permits, but not student IDs that

are acceptable forms of ID, that's not okay. When only driver's licenses are accepted, which might preclude those who can't drive, that's not okay. When it's only forms of ID that cost money to buy, precluding low-income folks from voting, that's not okay. But as long as there are options, and those options are fair and equitable and don't limit access, and certainly don't act as a modern-day poll tax, then we can make it work. But anyway, the important point here is that the For the People Act is now Mansions Bill to sell.

It's got his name on it. He crafted it. It was his time spent drafting it. And honestly, this is the single best position we could be in right now, considering the alternative, which is, you know, a bill crafted by Bernie Sanders that we just wait for Joe Manchin to disavow with some op-ed in the Wall Street Journal. And so if ever he had a vested interest in making sure that this passes, it's now when it is literally his bill. So look, he said from the beginning that Republicans are going to be reasonable, Republicans are going to meet him halfway. I think that's utterly insane, but look, now that hypothesis will be put to the test in the most clear and direct way. way. If he does the impossible and gets Republicans aboard, great, this thing becomes law.

If he can't, then maybe that's the kick in the ass that Joe Manchin is going to need to prove to him that these Republicans aren't interested in legislating. They're not interested in democracy. They are only interested in consolidating power for themselves, and that the only resolution here is to eliminate or reform the filibuster so that we can protect our system of government. I hope that what we're seeing right now is the beginning stages of Manchin realizing that something's got to give and that he needs to exercise his power to shore up our democracy. Because the truth is that he holds the cards here. But having him lead this fight is the best case scenario among what are otherwise limited options.

Next up is the Republican Lieutenant Governor of Georgia, Jeff Duncan. Today we have the Republican Lieutenant Governor of Georgia and author of the book GOP 2.0, Jeff Duncan. Thank you for joining. Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for the opportunity. So let's start off with this. Why aren't you running for re-election? Well, I think the opportunity to try and heal and rebuild the Republican Party nationally is a bigger opportunity than running again for a lieutenant governor. I love the job of lieutenant governor. Myself and my family, I think we've done really well in the role. It's just the point in time we're at right now inside this party, we've got to get some work done, and I think we've got a good opportunity to be a leader in that.

Well, doesn't you choosing not to run basically just seed that ground to the very bad faith actors that you claim to oppose within your party? Like, shouldn't you wage a fight precisely so that they can't overtake the GOP? No, I don't think so. I mean, certainly there could be those that translate it that way, but there's a number of folks across, you know, kind of multiple platforms that have announced to run for the job of lieutenant governor. And, you know, at this point, you know, we kind of put, it's also a bandwidth issue, right?

If I'm going to heal and rebuild this party and be a part of the effort, it's only so many hours in the day. And I certainly don't want to serve two masters and not be good at either one. And so this is an opportunity for us to take a step into this direction. What makes you think that you can pry the Republican Party away from Trump? Like the party's got two people that are willing to buck him. That's Adam Kinsinger and Liz Cheney, basically, in Congress. How do you look at that and gain any confidence in what you're doing?

Well, you know, one, I believe in the weight of reality. In my opinion, the weight of reality is always right. Sometimes it takes a little longer than normal. I think that America, and this party specifically, is starting to come to grips with that reality, and that is there was no election fraud. Unfortunately, Donald Trump missed the layup, and now he's blaming the entire stadium for that missed layup. But we got to move on. And look, I believe this is a center-right-leaning country. There's folks with us on seven, eight, nine out of ten issues that don't vote for us anymore. And, you know, I think we need to create a safe place

for even those folks to call home and have discussions about some things around immigration and conservative gun policies and all types of issues that are out there that we need to have conversations about and not arguing matches. Now, you obviously, you know, acknowledged that the 2020 election was free and fair and didn't have any widespread fraud that wasn't, you know, connected to the big lie that Trump was pushing. Would you agree that these voter integrity bills across the U.S. are in response to that big lie that the election was stolen? Yeah, so I've been very vocal on this, especially in Georgia, right?

We had a couple of different versions of the bill that floated through. Some of them I actually left the chamber at one point. I was so disgusted at kind of some of those efforts. There's almost a hat tip to Donald Trump and those out there. And look, ultimately, I think a lot of the ideas and the final version that we had here in Georgia were actually bipartisan ideas. Many of those measures that we actually passed through bipartisanship, but then they got, you know, individually siloed in committees in other parts of the Capitol. And then an omnibus bill came forward. So, look, if I'm grading the final version of that bill, it's probably a B, some great things that happened that both parties agreed during the hyper-examines.

focused period of time. There were some things I just totally disagree with that I thought were poorly times. I thought they were misfocused, you know, taking punitive swipes at Brad Rappensberger, who really did nothing wrong but fall into Donald Trump's, you know, scapegoat path. And then the food and water situation I thought was was a ridiculous step in the wrong direction. There's no way to message that, even if you give me the craziest of scenarios where somebody's, you know, baiting somebody's boat with a prime rib and a cold beer, that's illegal already. So I, I thought there was some things that we could have done differently. How are certain elements of this acceptable in the sense that it gave voters less time

to request absentee ballots? It made it illegal to mail absentee ballot applications to voters. It reduced drop boxes, which would go from 94 in the four most populous counties down to 23, all of which obviously trended blue. As you mentioned, no food or water. You know, it gave the Republican-controlled legislature the ability to suspend county election officials. gave them the ability to have more control over the state elections board. Again, as you mentioned, it took Brad Raffisberger away from being a voting member of the state elections board. So even if it did have bipartisan elements of it, how can you look at the broader context

of this bill and, I guess, support it? Yeah. So, look, I've talked about this often. I do think there was a number of good things like we talked about previously that were bipartisanly approached the way we counted absentee ballots. I mean, the period of time between the election and between, you know, the 10 weeks, essentially, of chaos that maybe continues to swirl around at times, it really gave us an opportunity to examine and look for ways to modernize how quickly we count those absentee ballots. We went from, I believe, I think, rough numbers, 230,000 absentee ballots to 1.3 million in looking at in those things. But so at the end of the day, I give this analogy. You know, many of those measures in the bill were good and some of them were, I believe.

overreaches, you know, in timing. This would be like the Braves, the Atlanta Braves, having a losing season and raising ticket prices the next year. It just isn't really good timing. Many of the measures did make us more efficient. But, you know, I continue, as a Republican, and one that's trying to reform our party's focus and direction, I continue to tell folks, look, it's time to move on. That election was free and fair of any systemic fraud. And there's nothing that we're going to do that's going to change any sort of outcomes, nor should we change any sort of outcomes. That was really one of the areas of focus in my book was really talking about.

There's an area where I spent a lot of time doing this, and this wasn't like imaginary dream stuff. I really played out what would have happened if we would have held a special session and sent a different set of electorates to D.C. What if we would have allowed the narrative to play out through my voice or the governor's voice that there was some sort of fraud? I mean, we would have had chaos in the streets, maybe still to this day, because we would have disenfranchised millions of voters.

That's just that that was scary when I started to write that chapter. Well, then I guess, you know, that begs the question, by allowing some of these measures which have been passed in SB 202 that were a direct result of the big lie, you know, giving the Republican-controlled legislature the ability to replace county election officials, which is ripe to be used nefariously, isn't going to lend itself to that exact scenario that you just outline that you oppose? Well, I certainly hope not because just like you and everybody else listening,

I believe the voters ought to determine elections. And that's really where hopefully we put ourselves in a position. I hope to never be in the place that we were in Georgia. And to be not because the president's, you know, a president's buyer or focuses on us, but just, you know, look, I want each and every state to determine their own election. I want each and every state to be a campaign ground for folks to put their big ideas forward. And that was a very, very difficult time. in Georgia. I learned a lot about people. I learned a lot about individuals. I mean, still to this day, to get folks that walk up to you at the grocery store that still think that there's some sort of, you know, grand conspiracy, to know that you have extra security at odd times around your

own, your own house or family is disheartening. But I got to tell you, I feel like the tide is turning. I feel like there's a majority of folks that are starting to move past any sort of, you know, look, whether you're Democrat or Republican, we've got to move forward as a country. We have real issues, right? I mean, certainly you probably talked about them every week on your podcast. But, I mean, real issues that are bipartisan issues, right? Economies, you know, COVID, Afghanistan, these are real issues that we need to find real solutions to. Now, I know that you won't have a say in this specifically, but do you support, more broadly speaking, the For the People Act? I try not to pay much attention to what's going on in D.C. We seem to operate on

different standards, hopefully. Look, at the end of the day, I think we ought to put it through the vetting process, right, and continue to be fair and honest, I think elections don't need to have partisan angles to them. I think that's a difficult place to be. And, you know, one of the reasons why I stood up so loudly early on in our voting process was one of the measures that they wanted to take away was no excuse absentee voting through absentee ballots. And when I did some deep dive homework on it, I realized that it was actually a Republican initiative in 2005 and many of the very people in the building that were working against it now, we're actually in favor of it then. And we can't make election law based on outcomes.

We've got to make them about, you know, trying to create honest and fair elections and continue to keep that current. And look, some of the measures that are out there around the country are, and probably some being debated in Congress, are innovative ideas, right? We've got to continue to modernize our product, our election product, right, as we move across the country and move through time. We're obviously new technology. We need to make sure it's safe and secure. And certainly we've seen the hyper focus that goes on all on all these elections. So I don't know the ends and the outset of that bill. I know that it's moving through. It feels a lot like a partisan piece of legislation on both sides of the aisle that, you know, one side doesn't like the other side. I hope

folks dive into the details and put the policy over the politics on something as important as an election. I would push back against the idea that this is a partisan piece of legislation. I think the biggest element, of course, is that it would ban partisan gerrymanders. It would take dark money out of politics. I think that those are things that, you know, on both sides of the aisle, people would be able to agree whether it happens, you know, in a state like Maryland or a state like Florida and North Carolina that partisan gerrymanders clearly have one use in our democracy. And it's not to strengthen it. Yeah, yeah. Just from that process, we're in the midst of doing reapportionment here in Georgia like every other state's working on. And we'll come back into special session in the fall and be able to work through that. You know, my job is lieutenant governor. I'm actually not a vote. voting member of the Senate. I'm the presiding officer. And really my role is been to try to make sure that we facilitate, once again, a fair and legal process that follows the letter of the law and how we reapportion it, how we, you know, make sure that we follow, like said, the letter of that

law. Would you vote for Trump if he ran again in 2024? I would not. Yeah, I would not. But I got to be honest with you, Donald Trump has zero percent chance of being the Republican nominee or winning an election. I think an overwhelming majority of Americans and certainly Republicans are starting to wake up and realize whether you love them or don't love him, his approach is unwinnable. And, you know, we cannot afford to gamble on Twitter as our marketing strategy and, you know, and come in second place again, which is code word for losing in politics. I think we're going to see a new brand come forward. Look, full disclosure, I think there's a lot of things that Donald Trump did well during the four years he was there as a conservative. I think he led on some really great policies. He really

put tax reform forefront. He put a conservative Supreme Court together. There was a lot of things that he did well. But there's a lot of things that he didn't do well. And as a business owner in my background, I try to improve my product every day. And we need to improve our product. And we need to get better. The book is all about that. The book really outlines this policy, empathy, and tone, my pet project. I think there's policies that make sense. I think we need to do it empathetically. and I think we need to do it with a better tone. If Donald Trump would have campaigned with a much better tone with better empathy and focused on his policy wins,

he'd still be the president, but he didn't. Well, that was actually my next question. You do outline what you call the pet project, policy, empathy, and tone. All of those three are virtually absent in Donald Trump's GOP right now. And Donald Trump's GOP is the vast majority of that party. What gives you any confidence that this would resonate with anyone in your party, given the trajectory that it's going in right now? Well, I already feel the momentum building.

There's folks literally all over the country, all 50 states, reaching out, finding us on our website at gop2.org. We're seeing all the book sales. We're seeing all the attention to the interviews. There's a vacuum of leadership inside the Republican Party. I get it, Donald Trump's popular. But there's going to be folks that come to GOP 2.0, the movement, not necessarily the book, but the movement from different channels.

Some are going to be like me and just believe wholeheartedly, we've got to do this from start to finish. There's going to be some that get there because they believe that the tone needs to be better. And then there's going to be some that's just going to get tired of losing. Right. Think about this. There's going to be mayor's races and congressional races and governor's races determined not on did you vote for lower taxes. Did you support your law enforcement officers? Did you do all you could do to support our military? It's going to be simply based on did you support Donald Trump's conspiracy theories or did you not? Yeah. And that's a terrible place for America to be, it's an even more terrible place for my party to be, because we're not ultimately

fighting the best leaders. We're finding the loudest, proudest folks that Donald Trump endorses. And that's really where I think this is shifting. This policy over politics, I think, is really happening now because folks are wanting to gravitate towards adults in the room, right? Whether it's the way their kids are being treated in schools, whether it's the way that, you know, they're watching their local law enforcement officers, not, you know, any sort of notion of defunding the police really is a negative connotation, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. I think we're going to watch folks wake up and realize that are reluctant voters for Joe Biden because they're seeing the quick knee-jerk reaction in Afghanistan with an excuse-laden response. I think

there's there's consequences to losing an election, and we're watching that play out now. As a conservative, that's my viewpoint. Now, I'll finish up with this. What is conservatism to you? And I did ask a similar question to Adam Kinzinger when he came on because, you know, we've seen that the Republican Party has claimed to have stood for states rights. And yet we saw that Texas lawsuit seek to overturn the election results in four states, including your state of Georgia. You know, we've heard that it's for fiscal responsibility. And yet the Republican Party added $7.8 trillion to the debt for family values. And yet they lined up behind someone like Donald Trump. So what is conservatism to you?

Yeah, I take a stab at trying to define. And obviously that's a tough, it's a tough question, right? And those are certainly tenants. I believe the debt issue is a serious problem. I think it's a crisis. I talk about it in the book. But I lay out this thing called a policy prism in the eyes of what I believe a conservative approach should be. And one is the policies that we forgot to remind people of and we forgot to live out, right, like fiscal responsibility. I think there's a policy set of areas that we need to start to move our feet on, right? I think there's some things that we need to have some difficult conversations. to steer them in a conservative direction, like immigration, right? As a Republican, I listen to this, build the wall mantra for four years. That's not a policy. That's a project name, right? I think we need to start talking about border security, which I think Democrats believe in border security too,

but we also need to have a parallel conversation about what you do with the 16 million undocumented folks that are here. Who's been embedded into our communities into our economy and who are the bad actors that don't need to be here? But we need to have those real conversations. Same with guns. same with all types of issues. And then I think this is the sweet spot for conservative policies and approach going forward. We need to be the party of ideas, positive ideas. And to me, that's

the core principles to conservatism going forward, right? We've talked about how bad we dislike Obamacare for over a decade and have done nothing about it. If we could simply deliver a better or improved health care plan to Obamacare, I think we could take the hearts and minds of millions of voters across this country who are scared to death as small business owners who don't know what to do to offer insurance, or those families that are caught in those gaps that don't know how to provide proper or affordable health care for their families. If we could just deliver that solution, I think we could make great strides. If we could do a better job in delivering public-private partnerships where instead of trying to own the idea as government, we implemented

things like I call the four Cs, churches, charities, corporations, and citizens. I want to earn folks in the middle's votes, I don't want to pander to that. And to me, that's the empathy part. We talked about policies. We talked about tone. But the empathy part is stop pandering the people that you want to vote for you and start asking them how you can help them. I guarantee you if you sat down with enough single moms that have kids and multiple jobs, they're not going to tell you that they care about democratic policies or Republican policies. They're going to tell you that they're tired of their kid walking by three drug dealers on the way to a failing school. That's the pathway that mom's vote is figuring out a solution to that.

It's a big answer to what conservatism is, but I think it's a moving target that we've got to be willing to follow and to listen. Well, look, you know, I would love to be in a position where we could debate about the issues, about taxes and social issues and not about the very existence of our democracy. So, again, with that said, the book is GOP 2.0. Lieutenant Governor Duncan, thank you for taking the time. I know it's probably, I know there's probably outlets that are going to be much more friendly and less, less combative. it, but I do appreciate you taking the time to come on and speak to an audience that may not be, you know, the exact audience that you're used to speaking to. Well, love the opportunity. And if done right, GOP 2.0 will help both parties because it's going to redefine the rules

of engagement and do exactly what you talked about. Get back to putting policy over politics. Thanks again to Jeff Duncan. Now we've got the new president of the AFL-CIO, Liz Schuller. Thanks so much for coming on. Hi, Brian. Thanks for inviting me on the show. Of course.

So first off, congratulations on the new position, and congratulations for being the first female president of the AFL-CIO. I have a lot of questions for you, but first, can you just speak to what it means to you to be the organization's first female president and why it's important? Absolutely. And of course, I never take for granted that folks know what the AFL-CIO is. We're a federation of 56 unions, 12.5 million working people throughout the country in every sector of the economy. I'm thinking of Hurricane Ida right now, and we have 25,000 power linemen on the front lines of that natural disaster. So we're representing the voices of working people, you know, throughout the country. And as the first woman president, I'm absolutely humbled. I'm honored because I know I stand on the shoulders of so many courageous women who have been leading these fights, you know, both in the streets,

protests and strikes, but also in workplaces all across the country who are quietly leading, you know, day-to-day standing up for themselves and advocating for working women in workplaces all across the country. So I am honored to bring voice to those women and to all working people, because we know right now working people need a voice more than ever. Yeah, well, congratulations again. So what are the AFL-CIO's top led? legislative priorities right now? So we are pretty laser focused on the, what we call workers' first agenda right now, both in Washington and at the state and local level, we're fighting to create good jobs.

That's what we do for a living is create opportunities for working people. And as you probably know, they're talking about big investments in President Biden, Vice President Harris, build back better agenda. And so we are looking forward to our taxpayer dollars going in to create good, high-quality union jobs where you're able to make a good living to support your family, but also continue to create pathways to better and better opportunities. And we see lots of emerging industries and sectors coming out of this investment. So, for example, the clean energy economy is one that we are paying a lot of attention to because we know that we are in a crisis. Climate change is upon us.

It is urgent. And we need to start looking at how our country transitions into new fuels, new opportunities. We're very much focused on wind energy, solar, you know, hydro, so that we can make those jobs, good, high-road, high-wage jobs. Now, can you speak on the pro-act, you know, just as some quick background for those watching and listening? What is the pro act and why is it important? And why has it become one of the AFL-CIO's priorities as well? Yeah, and it's another part of our workers' first agenda that has really become a centerpiece because we know the economy is not working for most working

people. We've seen inequality, right? This kind of small percentage of people at the top who are doing really, really well, and then there's the rest of us, the 99%, right? And the way we see the pathway to a solution is by a broad, bold, modern labor movement that brings working people together to leverage more power in the economy. So we are laser-focused on the Pro Act because that bill would make it easier for workers to come together in union to form unions. And we're seeing young people, especially 71% of millennials are favorable toward unions, according to Gallup polls. And so we think this is the moment where workers should be coming together collectively to raise their voices for fairness on the job, respect, and of course, better wages and benefits. And I think, you know, we're seeing this kind of organizing go on all over the economy.

Digital journalists, for example, on various platforms are coming together and leveraging through their union, corporate social responsibility, for example. So I think it's a really innovative time to create what the modern union looks like for today's economy. Now, with legislative items like the Pro Act, other clean energy items, you know, it doesn't seem like a lot of these pieces of legislation have adequate Republican support, if any, which means that even though we have the majority and could change the filibuster so that, you know, these items could become law, they're unlikely to pass. And that's the same with voting rights and on and on. So what's your position on the filibuster then? And what's your message to

even those democratic holdouts who are standing in the way of filibuster reform. Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned voting rights because I would say that's the third leg and the three-legged stool of the priority items the labor movement is fighting for right now. And you're right, these arcane rules of the Senate are holding us back. We voted in the last election for change and for investment. And the filibuster, which most people don't even know what a filibuster is, right, if you talk to most Americans out there in the country is the one thing holding us back. So we have, as a labor movement, been fighting to open up these arcane Senate rules

to provide a pathway to make progress on voting rights, investment in infrastructure, and the Pro Act. And we have a network of 50 state AFL-CIOs. We have a city-level AFL-CIOs in every major city across the country. So we have an infrastructure that can move real working people on the ground to create that pressure. And we know elected officials respond to the constituent pressure at home, right? The best. So that's what we're doing is moving this agenda both in Washington, but also at home in the communities and using that AFL-CIO infrastructure to really hold these elected officials feet to the fire. Now, I just want to dig into that just a little bit more because we only really have a couple of senators who are, you know, entrenching this, this arcane

procedural rule. What does it entail to like to try and pressure these senators? I mean, it would basically be Joe Manchin and Kirsten Cinema. So I was just in Phoenix, Arizona, meeting with workers and community leaders to, again, double down on the pressure to say, you know what, the spillibuster is holding up progress. It's not what we voted for. We need you to come forward, change your position, move this legislation forward. So, yeah, we're looking at all kinds of options, right? There's the legislative tools that we have in D.C., but also, I believe the strongest approach is the grassroots pressure.

And I know a lot of your listeners are very politically active, right? And in their communities, plugging into those community organizations, labor unions, who are working in coalition to break through. And so that's what we need as an active, educated, mobilized population to make sure that those messages are being sent to senators, you know, like Kirsten Sinema, who could be hearing from her constituents right there. in Arizona to break the logjam. Yeah, well, you know, I would just say, you know, on my behalf, as a point of personal privilege to keep that up because we need all the pressure that we can get.

Now, you had mentioned young people earlier. Young people might not really have an understanding or appreciation for what unions do. So what do you say to those who are just entering the workforce now who might not care about unions? Yeah, I think there is a lot of misperceptions out there. And when people think of unions, especially young people, that they might have, you know, a grandfather or an uncle or someone in their family that was in a union and they think of it as something that was relevant many years ago, but maybe not as relevant to today. And I hear a lot from young people saying, well, we have laws. Why do we need unions, right? Yeah. But really, laws are meaningless unless you have the ability to enforce them and come together, not just

yourself, but with your co-workers to hold these corporations accountable. We know in workplaces all across the country, corporations are thwarting workers' ability to come together in unions. And I use the recent effort at Amazon in Bessemer, Alabama, as an example, where workers were showing up in horrific conditions. They are being managed by an app, and they have no human interaction. And so when they came together to organize a union, it was about respect and dignity, and it was about working conditions, right? So they wanted to be treated as humans, not machines, and they knew that standing up alone was going to get them fired. So they came together to have more power. And that's really what unions are, is a mechanism to actually come together without fear

and be able to hold employers accountable to the standards that we expect in today's society, where they're treating workers as an asset, not as disposable. And, you know, I think there's some great examples of, like, the Google walkout. I don't know if you remember that not long ago, where I think it was sexual harassment was the motivator there and all these workers walked out one day to protest. And then the next day they went back to work. And they got frustrated because they didn't have a mechanism to really take it a step further

or see that kind of lasting change. And really, that's what unions are, is you and your coworkers deciding what's important to you and then having the law behind you to be able to be on equal standing with a company and really demand that workplace change that you would like to see. And I'll say one other thing to that.

A lot of people think it's just wages and benefits or health care. Those are important. But there are also corporate social behavior issues that you can use a union contract to influence. And I know, for example, I think it was a digital journalist and her union. They came to the table with the company to talk about the company's carbon footprint, which I thought was such an innovative way to use their union, right? Yeah. And it gives you the power in that voice to be able to stand up. Yeah. And just as an aside now, I know you had mentioned Amazon, that situation had seemed to be resolved in the sense that Amazon had been able to successfully put down the union drive.

But that's not exactly what's happening now. Can you just speak on where that situation is, you know, where that situation stands as of right now? Sure. And for those listening who might not be familiar with the situation, workers in Bessemer, Alabama at one of the big fulfillment centers, for Amazon petitioned to create a union, and the company hired three separate union busting law firms to try to dissuade them. They had what they call captive audience meetings where they called in groups of workers and forced them to listen to an anti-union presentation and then called them up individually, took photos of their ID badges, and then dismissed them from the meeting so that they would know who they'd talk to, who they hadn't. Perhaps if you raise your voice in that meeting and asked a question, you would be disciplined later. And they did things

like change the stoplight outside of the warehouse so that workers who are driving out would not be stopped at a red light and be able to talk to union organizers. These are just small examples of the tactics they used to try to intimidate, harass, and dissuade workers from forming a union, which is the law of the land. People are able to form unions freely and fairly, but companies, the laws are so broken that companies will violate the law because they know it's a slap on the wrist. You know, there's really no disincentive for them not to. And it's in their best interest to not have workers come together and have more power. So I think, With Amazon, we did file charges with the NLRB, the agency that oversees elections,

and they just recently found that Amazon did violate the law, and that election then was obviously tilted unfairly toward the company. So we are planning. There are conversations going on all around the country at different locations that we think Amazon is the poster child for how workers have this great need, to come together so that we can lift the standards of the jobs in the future economy. So when we think of union membership generally, we kind of have this idea of a very homogenous union member, you know, like a white male, basically. But is that what union membership

looks like today? And what is the AFLCAO doing to bring more people in? I'm glad you asked that because I do think there is a perception that we're of the past for some reason or maybe not as dynamic and nimble to reflect today's economy. And it's absolutely not true. And in fact, that's something I would like to emphasize as the new president of the AFL CIO is that we are ready to build that bold, modern new labor movement that really speaks to the needs of the future workforce. And that is a workforce that is diverse. And we want to be the inclusive labor movement that reflects their needs. And as a woman, I will say this labor movement represents 6.5 million women, which means we are the largest working women's organization in the country. Not a lot of people know that. And we are ready to evolve and change with the way work is changing in the future. And that means the evolving workforce as well. So we want to be the place where women, people of color,

young people, immigrants, LGBTQ workers come to make their voices heard, to make sure that they have access to good, high-wage, sustainable jobs, and that they really see the labor movement as a movement for them, and that is creating the dynamic social change that we so desperately need in this country. Now, the prevailing narrative that Republicans push is that they're good for business and that Democrats are bad for business, and that somehow there's a difference between business and jobs and that Republicans are good for business, even if Democrats are good for jobs. Now, to me, those things seem mutually exclusive because one benefits workers and the other benefits

executives and CEOs. How do you reconcile those two things? Well, it's interesting you use partisanship sort of as the lens through which we're looking. I look at it through a workers' lens in terms of, yes, Democrat and Republican, but also, you know, corporate America has the opportunity to look at its workers as an asset, as I said earlier. That, you know, you shouldn't always run a company by trying to have a race to the bottom and try to use wages, lowering wages, as your competitive edge. You would think if you're a company that, you know, wants to do the right thing, you want to use ingenuity and innovation as a way to be more competitive,

not just by paying your workers less. So we in the labor movement come to the table knowing that if we work with companies to make them more profitable, the idea is that workers will share in that success. And that is more often the exception than the rule these days. Corporate America has a laser focus on profits and Wall Street and what Wall Street thinks of them. And, you know, these days, I think it's 299 to one as the CEO to worker pay ratio. 299 to one. Jeff Bezos makes in seven seconds what the average Amazon employee makes in a year. That is just not right.

And we can do better as a country, as a society. And if you look to the future of work with technology coming on, we should be deciding now what kind of guard rail. we want to put in place to ensure this future is a future where everyone thrives, where we're lifting standards and that workers are sharing in the prosperity that this wealthy country of ours is creating. Now, more than just financial security unions, they assure safe workplaces. Now, today there's a pandemic, and so labor stands to benefit when mandatory vaccinations are instituted in the workplace, just like anywhere else in schools, wherever it is.

What do you tell union members who still believe the lies that, you know, the coronavirus vaccine is, you know, a government tracking device? What do you say to union members who think that mandatory vaccinations are somehow taking away their freedom? Well, we believe everyone should be vaccinated. I'll just start there. And I will say that many unions are a source for education and information. That's one of the roles that we play is to, you know, be a trusted source so that you can get. you can demystify all of the disinformation that's out there, and we know it's out there. The second thing we do is work with employers to make sure that whatever vaccination policies,

masking policies, mitigation measures are seen through a worker's lens and that workers should have a voice at the table as to what is happening in their workplace when it comes to health and safety. And I think you've seen unions actually more relevant than ever through the pandemic because the unionized workplaces were the ones that had the PPE, you know, the protective gear at the beginning of the pandemic. They were the ones where workers felt like they could speak up when they weren't getting what they need or they saw a ventilation system that wasn't functioning and they weren't afraid to raise those safety concerns because they had the protection of their union. So I think this pandemic really had a more positive effect on what people are seeing the role and the relevance of labor unions today because, you know, more and more people are positive about the ability to join unions.

And we haven't seen that. It's at a 50-year high. So I think that that, to me, signals that people have had enough. They're fed up. They know that this economy isn't working for working people. and they see a modern, bold labor movement now is a viable path, right, for workers to have that voice, to have that say. Now, can you just speak to this idea? You know, going back to looking at this through a partisan lens for a moment, what we're seeing and what we've seen throughout the entirety of this pandemic is this push by Republicans to just open it up that we can't, that we can't wait any longer to be mired in the middle of these safety measures that we're in right now. The other side, would say that nothing is going to get back to normal until and unless this pandemic is over and that takes certain measures being instituted to get there. So where do you stand on this

issue where, you know, a lot of those in the right are just saying, screw it, we're tired of waiting, open everything back up. They're playing politics with our health. The labor movement believes strongly, as I said, everyone should be vaccinated. And the measures that have been taken proactively to keep us safe have also been the ones that allow us to get the economy back up and running. And that's what we care about in the labor movement is that every person in this country should have a good job that is sustainable, that allows them to support their families. And we will not get back there until we beat this pandemic. And I heard your interview with Governor Newsom, and I thought, you know, he put it well, is that you compare the states

who actually put the measures in place to the states that are, you know, thumbing their nose at these protections. And you can see the effects. The data doesn't lie, right, with who's in the hospitals. Yeah. And, you know, how the economy is faring. So I think the labor movement is very much in alignment with the fact that taking an aggressive stand and, but always with a worker voice and a worker perspective as we move through these different measures. Yeah. I think that's a great point that like we don't have to pontificate about this the numbers are right there in front of us and you have certain states that have implemented these safety measures and then those who haven't and the numbers are clearly different and so you know we don't have to guess what would

happen you know if one way was implemented or the other because all we have to do is open our eyes and look at them absolutely i do want to speak about the green new deal for a moment i know that's that it's you know more of a framework right now than not but you know the green new deal calls for a federal jobs guarantee, supports collective bargaining rights, universal health care, workforce retraining. It condemns anti-labor policies and does lay out a goal of creating high-quality union jobs. Now, at the same time, the former AFL-CIAO president, Richard Trumpka, had opposed it. So where do you stand on the Green New Deal? Do you support it or oppose it? The Green New Deal, I think you're right. It's a framework. It's an aspiration. And what we're seeing now is in the build

back better agenda, many of those concepts are now being actually put into practice. And the key for us as the labor movement is that those jobs, those investments are actually going to provide a return on investment to the people who are, you know, our taxpayer dollars, right? So often we see investments made where you don't have labor standards attached to them or guarantees that communities will be benefiting from all the money that we're pumping into the local economy, right? And so I think that's what we're laser focused on is thinking about, okay, what kind of investments are these? Are they going to actually create the kinds of clean energy jobs that we need to tackle climate change? And are those jobs actually going to provide a good, decent living that's sustainable for the working

families in this country? And I think we've seen how it can be done badly with de-endums. industrialization, you know, of the past when manufacturing was offshoreed. And there was no protections in place. There was no just transition for the workers whose jobs were displaced. And we know what happened since then. People felt abandoned, left behind. We have the opportunity to do this right this time. We can put the guardrails in place to make sure that labor standards are attached that we are investing in these good jobs and that in the future that you know that we have a voice in this process I keep thinking about technology right and if we aren't able to put protections in place the same thing happens with you know when we invented the internet

Al Gore no I'm just kidding invented the internet that was a taxpayer investment now companies like Facebook and Google you know have profited off that investment and we didn't have the proper guardrails in place where we were making sure that the jobs that were created were good high road jobs. So that's what we're focusing on, making sure that, you know, the investments we make providing a return on investment for the working people of this country. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that, you know, not only protecting the working class, but focusing on, you know, a sustainable future is a priority of the AFLCAO. So with that said, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And congratulations.

again on the position. Thank you so much, Brian. Hope to do this again sometime. Thanks again to Liz Schuller. Okay, one last note here, California. September 14th is the last day to vote in the recall election. Do not assume that this one is in the bag because Republicans are banking on high enthusiasm on the right and complacency on the left. All you got to do is vote no on that ballot that's in your mailbox or on your counter in the kitchen and get it back in. I just dropped mine at a drop box that was all of four minutes away from my house. So please do your part and return your ballot. Okay, that's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber,

music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels. Thank you.