No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Democrats stumble on strategy to thwart Trump

Episode Date: February 23, 2025

Democrats discover the one way for Democrats to beat Trump and Elon. Brian interviews Pod Save America’s Jon Favreau to discuss Musk’s overreach, and Jen Psaki about Trump’s lagging poll numbers.Shop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about the one way for Democrats to beat Trump and Elon, and I have two interviews this week. I sit down with Pate of America's John Favreau to discuss Musk's overreach, and I interview Jen Saki to talk about Trump's lagging polling. I'm Brian Teller Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. Okay, so we've been in the wilderness for a while now. Trump is following the Steve Bannon model of flooding the zone because he knows that he can send the media and the Democrats scrambling in 10 different directions. and frankly, he's largely right. But we've just accidentally stumbled upon a strategy to fight back. And unlike most of what Democrats have been trying to do,

this one can actually work. So here's the background. This past week, the House was out of session, which means a bunch of lawmakers held town halls in their districts. To give you a small sampling of what that looked like, this is Republican Congressman Glenn Groffman's town hall in Wisconsin's six congressional districts. That district's been solidly Republican since 1967,

more than half a century of Republican rule. Like, I'm sorry, but there are no district-wide BLM protests here. And yet, this is what the town hall sounded like. President Trump has issued a lot of executive orders. I think by at large, this is moving very quickly compared to other administrations. And I think across the board, he's done so very good things. I think we're... Oh, no.

Come on. Oh, no. We, he's gotten rid of birthright citizenship. No, I'm not going to the Constitution. Illegal as hell. Quite a bit agitated, and we've seen the same thing in districts across the country, Republican districts with Republican voters who are lashing out at their elected officials because of Trump and Elon's overreach.

And that's bearing itself out in the polling, too. Trump had enjoyed net positive support for the first, month of his presidency, that number is flipped to net negative based on new polling from the Washington Post, from Reuters, from Quinnipiac, and from CNN. He's underwater on ending DEI programs and the government, on banning trans-military members from serving, on pardoning January 6th insurrectionists, on doing mass firings of federal employees, on shutting down USAID, which provides humanitarian assistance to low-income countries, and to blocking health agencies from communicating with the American public. But he's most underwater on having deputized

Elon Musk. According to the Washington Post, Musk having a prominent role in the administration is viewed as a bad thing, 54 to 28, by a nearly 2 to 1 ratio. The Post-IPSO's poll showed Americans disapproved by a similarly wide margin, 52 to 26, of Musk shutting down federal government programs that he decides are unnecessary. And Americans said 63 to 34 that they are concerned about Musk's team getting access to their data, which is the subject of high-profile legal fights. even 37% of Republican-leaning voters

said that they are at least somewhat concerned about must-getting their data. So clearly, what Elon is doing is unpopular. Trump allowing him to do it is unpopular, and these Republican lawmakers and senators allowing Trump and Elon to usurp all of their power is also unpopular. And look, I get the gamble that these Republican officials made.

They don't want to do anything to earn the scorn of Trump because he's threatened a primary challenge against them and Elon's going to fund it. And so they just do whatever he's. he wants. But what they didn't take into account was that if the voters themselves are lashing out, then that is a more immediate problem than the prospect of a primary challenge. And mark my words, they will be responsive to their own voters, certainly more than they're going to be responsive to some threat by Trump. And so the answer here is to put pressure on these Republican

officials, because if they start to see that they're losing support from the very people who are responsible for voting them into office, then that becomes existential for them in a way that Trump's idle threats can't be. If you live in these districts, show up at these town halls, call these people, go to their field offices, go to their D.C. offices. These are the people we need to lean on. And I know that a lot of our focus has been on Democrats because, well, because they've been something of a disaster lately and too many of them are too old and they don't retire. But the reality is that even if we have 100% consensus among Democrats, even if Democrats are perfect, we still don't have the power

to do anything. But when we start chipping away at Republicans, that's a different story. And if one Republican steps up, that then gives a permission structure for other Republicans to do the same. And remember, they've only got a three-seat majority in the House, which means it doesn't take much to block Trump's agenda. But it starts by doing exactly what these constituents are doing right now, which is showing up, getting loud, and voicing their dissatisfaction with what is going on in D.C.

And let's be clear, doing that does not make you some radical Marxist. If you're a conservative, I beg you, put Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton in the shoes of Donald Trump right now. Using Elon, using the richest man in the world, using a multi-billionaire donor as his personal wrecking ball for programs that people need, that conservatives need, is different from eliminating government waste. Cancer research is not government waste. Air traffic controllers are not government waste. Medicaid is not government waste. Social Security is not government waste. I get that Elon doesn't care about these things because He doesn't rely on these programs, doesn't rely on that funding, but a hell of a lot of people

in this country do. And the only way we get to keep these programs is if Republican voters do what we're seeing the beginnings of right now, which is to speak out. Your elected officials are accountable to you, not to Donald Trump and not to Elon Musk. The good news is that you get to remind them of that. And the better news is that they have a vested interest in listening. Next up are my interviews with John Fabro and Jen Soski. Key. No Lie, sponsored by Acorns. What stopped you from investing in the past? For me, I've always felt

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acorns, tier two compensation provided. Investing involves risk, Acorns Advisors, LSC, and SEC-registered investment advisor, view important disclosures at acorns.com slash BTC. I'm joined now by Pod Save America's John Favro. Thanks for joining me. What's up, man? So right now we're watching as Elon Musk has just taken kind of an axe to the entirety of the federal government, he's going from agency to agency. We're also seeing how all of these agencies that he's taking in acts to are agencies that were investigating him, agencies that were providing oversight against him, regulatory action against him, the inspector generals were looking into him. And so it's not just, you know, while he'll present this

as like some attack against waste, fraud, and abuse. In fact, Elon has derived some benefit every single step of the way. So to what extent do you think that Trump has political exposure by really offering a handout to the richest guy in the world, given that Elon is really the one that's benefiting the most from all of this? I think, and there's a bunch of polls out today, And they're consistent with polls from the last week or so that Elon is unpopular. The idea of Elon having too much power in the federal government is something people believe to be true. Or a majority of voters beliefs be true. A majority of independents believed to be true.

And they also, you know, I think an echelon poll gave people two statements. You know, is Elon and Doge cutting waste fraud and abuse the right thing to do? Or are you worried that they're going to cut programs that people really depend on? And more people said they're worried about them cutting programs that they depend on. So I think that the most exposure that Trump and Elon both have and Republicans in general, because don't forget, not a single Republican in Congress has really spoken up in any real way against this is. How could they have nestled in the protective warmth of Trump's colon, you know? Exactly, exactly.

And so if people see. services cut, if people hear that safety is at risk, whether it's the people who are supposed to secure our nukes or the people who are working at the FAA to keep our planes in the sky, keep our planes in the sky, which is something, I'm a one issue voter on that. You know, if they see that, if they see a whole bunch of people fired for no reason, veterans who are manning a veteran's crisis line, all this kind of stuff, then I think there's a lot of political exposure. And look, I don't know Elon's motivations, Trump motivations. It's hard to get in their head. But one thing that seems clear about the two of them, and I think why they're getting

along and what's going on here, is they both have authoritarian personalities, right? They don't like to be told what to do. They don't like criticism. When they want something done, they want to get it done. And so I think, you know, we saw them on Hannity's show together. there. I really see Elon is like Trump's enforcer here. And Trump wants things done. And Elon's like, if I have to, you know, break the law, then we'll let the court sort it out. If I have to fire the wrong people, whatever. If I have to, you know, put some services at risk, benefits at risk, whatever. We'll figure it out later. It's just, it's like move fast, break things, but it's the government. And he also doesn't know a lot about the federal

government, right? Like, a smart guy can, you know, build some rockets and cars, but when it comes to the federal government, he clearly hasn't taken the time to learn anything, nor has his team. So they keep screwing up. They are showing signs of incompetence already all over the place, firing the people who working for, working on bird flu stuff, to hire them back. So it's not like any of this is some grand plan. And I think the more people see chaos, incompetence, and they see a risk to themselves, then, yeah, there's going to be political exposure for the Republican Party.

Well, obviously, loss aversion is a big thing, and we're already seeing the effects of that. I mean, from Medicaid, people getting blocked out of these Medicaid portals, we're seeing planes crashing, colliding, falling out of the sky on a daily basis at the same time that we're seeing the FAA firing hundreds of employees.

And, of course, they're coming out and trying to do whatever damage control they can and saying that, you know, these are non-essential personnel, but like not great optics when planes can't stop crashing on a daily basis and you keep gutting the agency that's responsible for aviation security. And so I'm wondering whether you think that we are already at the point where we are seeing what would be enough to really be the logical conclusion of what they're trying to do. I mean, like, how much worse can you get than slashing Medicaid? How much worse can you get than cutting

cancer research, how much worse can you get than cutting education funding? I mean, now you're getting into the stuff that is going to transcend just the regular red meat for the base, right? Like now it's stuff that actually impacts people. Republicans have family members who deal with cancer. Republicans have family members who rely on education funding. Republicans have family members who need Medicaid. And so all of these issues are now going to touch the very people who they rely on, who compose their base and so well I mean and Republicans and the ones who are

up for election again which is not Donald Trump but all the Republicans in Congress they're heading into this budget fight now with this backdrop of Doge incompetency cuts

all the things you were just talking about affecting people now they're heading into this budget fight where their proposal is just a 4.5 trillion dollar tax cut that mostly is for is going to benefit people like Elon and Trump and they're going to try to find all these cuts where you know Trump says we're not going to touch Medicaid Medicare and Social Security I don't know where else you're going to find the money yeah the defense department but they said they also want to add funding to the defense defense department too so like I don't

know what they're planning on doing here and if the other only other option is to cut all other spending which is like now we're talking food safety transportation all the things people count on So I think that what Trump and Elon are doing, they're setting up the Republicans in Congress to be extremely unpopular because they're about to pass a bill that even if there was no Doge would probably be unpopular with people because it's a huge tax cut for the rich and cuts to health care and education that people count on. And so in an environment where Republicans enjoy the benefit of a huge megaphone of unlimited money to really push any messages through, any campaign they want to put money. behind, Elon himself can fund the whole thing just out of his own, you know, on the interest that he made on his investments that day. And so in an environment like this, where they are doing the most unpopular things, where they're passing a tax cut, where the vast majority of the benefits are going to be conferred to millionaires and billionaires, where they're cutting

education, cutting health care, cutting earned benefits, cutting Social Security, all so that they can fund basically a gift to Elon and his donors, how would you message that? I mean, your, you know, your whole background is in speech writing. And so in an environment where we have the, the deck stacked against us with, you know, the size and scope of the right wing media machine, how do you get our message to break through? I think that we have so many stories right now of people who are, have been hurt, who've lost their jobs, who are scared. And I think we need to tell those stories. And I think we need to be fighting for those people. Yeah. And fighting for everyone.

And I don't actually think it's, I mean, we, I know we have been dissecting messaging and strategizing over it for the last several years. This to me is just like, be a human. Yeah. Like you, you know, there's a veteran who served 20 years, four tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, disabled, works at the Bronx VA hospital, goes into his job and logs onto his computer and finds out he's fired, he's got four kids at home. like, what are we doing? Right. This is supposed to be like the big, evil, diabolical, like, government waste. And, like, these are regular people who are, by the way, also Republicans who just work

regular jobs, jobs that aren't just important so that people can feed their families, but that are beneficial to the country that keep us safe, that make sure that our nukes, for example, are watched over, that make sure our food supply is safe. Yeah, like, I don't know. I mean, we're the Democrats. We think that our job is to fight for people who, are paying taxes into the government so that they can have safe roads and safe skies and that they can get government services when they need them, that there's going to be

schools for their kids, that they're going to be able to retire and get their Social Security and that they're going to be able to get health care when they need it, just basic stuff. Yeah. That they're going to be able to like when they work really hard, that they're going to be able to like not live in poverty, put food on the table. And we want to have a government that is on the. side of those people and not a government that is hollowed out so that people who don't need a tax cut and some of them weren't even asking for it can get more money from the government.

I'm really glad that you said the point that we can just talk to regular people who this is all impacting because I think we fall into this trap of wanting to talk about these issues in like a theoretical sense and it's hard for people to really connect with that stuff because it's just part of like the political banter in the zeitgeist, right? But to your exact point And this is what was especially effective during the campaign is like people don't have trust in politicians. They trust, even the commentators who are on their side, they'll trust those people more than they would the politicians. But you're going to have partisan affiliations clouding how people perceive even the political commentators. But when you have regular people, and this is something that Sarah Longwell has talked about at Republican voters against Trump, those are the people who kind of garner the most trust among the vast majority of Americans, those people who will.

aren't overtly political, who just have a story to share. And by the way, that was a strategy that Democrats leaned on ahead of 2018, those midterms when really it was a referendum on trying to undo the ACA. And when you can hear about the regular people across the country who that would impact, that's what really resonated. And of course, that election was, was, you know, a huge backlash against Trump and Republicans who were trying to strip Obamacare funding away and trying to do that repeal and replace, even though there's nothing to replace it with. But really the benefits by virtue of making those people front and center really presented themselves in a way that we hadn't seen before. Yeah. And again, I really think at this point, I've seen a lot of Democrats

and strategists and everyone else and pundits. Like, everyone's just overthinking everything. Like what I would say to a Democratic politician is like, just, you know, go to the Washington Post. New York Times have done some great reporting on this. Go read some of the stories. from these people, and then walk away, don't look at your phone, don't talk to your advisors, how does it make you feel? How did reading about that story make you feel? And then go talk to people about that. Yeah. And go tell people what you want to do about that. Now, we don't have a lot of options right now. We can make a lot of noise. We can start organizing in advance of elections. We can sue and fight in court, which Democrats are doing. They can talk about some of

those fights. And they're being largely successful at temporary restraining orders and preliminary You can slow things down in Congress as much as possible. Don't have a ton of power to do that, but, you know, we can be creative there, creative and trying to communicate to people and get out in the country. I do think that, like, you know, I saw a better O'Rourke tweet this today, but he was like, you know, everyone should say they're going to go have town halls. And maybe you don't have all the answers for when you go to the town halls and people are like, what are you going to do about it?

But I just think, like, going out there, meeting people, listening to people, trying to get their ideas like we just need to start rebuilding the muscle of organizing and like yes no one's perfect and some of the democratic politicians are too olds for all of this and then their stuff's not landing that I get that right but at some point we all got to come together and fight this and some people are going to be good some people aren't going to be good some people are going to emerge as new leaders hopefully some people aren't but the most important thing right now is to start making these connections for people who are in an information environment where everything's just hitting them at once and be like, no, no, no, let's focus on the actual people who are getting

hurt by this. And forget about the like, we're trying to drive a wedge between Trump and Eli like all this stuff. There's just like, Fifer said this, Dan Fiver said this the other couple weeks ago and it's like stuck with me ever since is that Democrats are, we're like reading the stage directions a lot. you know and you can hear that in some of the messaging it's like he's not he's just he's using the gulf of mexico to distract you from he wants to give his billionaire buddies a tax break and it's like yeah it's a lot about it's a lot of talking about what we should be talking about instead of just talking about it

yeah that's exactly right that's exactly right and i do think that we just need to like you know get in touch with your own feelings about this just and go from there i i've noticed I've noticed that, too, is that there is a lot of, like, the, and even I was, I'm guilty of this, where I'll say, like, why isn't the media talking about this and, like, look at the asymmetry in the media. If this was happening, you know, if we saw planes falling out of the sky under the Buttigieg, you know, right-wing media would be talking about this on an endless loop, and they would, but in a way, it kind of actually exacerbates our weakness, because it shows that, like, these

people are going to be like, yeah, you're right, and, like, we don't fucking care. Like that's our superpower. We are past the point of shame. And so you can say this. And we know full well that if the shoe was on the other foot, we would throw a stink about this for 72 straight hours. And with you, we're not going to say a word because we don't fucking care and deal with it. And so instead of talking about how that asymmetry is frustrating,

just instead, like, the way I've thought about it is like be the change you want to see and instead talk about it and flood the zone with the fact that, you know, they would be saying if planes were falling out of the air under Pete Buttigieg, they would be talking about over and over. So we talk about it over and over. Less complaining about the situation in which we find ourselves and more yelling at the people who are causing the problems. Right. And so I do want to talk about that for a minute because I think you you had a front row seat unlike any other by virtue of working with Barack Obama and seeing how the right wing media ecosystem was like trained against him was propped up in order to destroy everything that he did.

And so with the Sean Duffy of it all, I mean, look, Trump came out and did all of these big actions with regard to aviation. He disbanded the aviation's security council. He fired the FAA administrator. He even released a statement on his website saying Donald J. Trump restores, you know, ends DEI madness and restores excellence and safety in federal aviation. And so that was him basically taking full ownership of everything that would happen. henceforth in aviation, only to then watch as we've seen planes collide and crash and fall out of the sky on a daily basis that now you have Sean Duffy, who's trying his level best to deflect blame any which way. And so how do you think about this where they've put their stamp of

ownership on everything only to then say, actually, now that this bad stuff is happening even after we've ended DEI, we're just going to go back and blame everything on Buttigieg and the Democrats and it's always their fault. We can only take acceptance for successes and we shoulder none of the blame. So on this one, I think that we have to offer people an alternative and we have to be the alternative, right? And so our accusation is that Donald Trump and Elon Musk are like playing politics with air safety, right?

And so if we want to be the opposition, then I think what we need to do is look at the actual facts and demand answers, right? And by that I mean, there's an air traffic controller shortage and there has been for some time. What are they going to do about it? They said that they didn't lay off anyone that was critical to air safety. Okay, fine. What does critical mean? Because you laid off maintenance people, technicians.

Story of a guy who, another veteran who've been working for years and years and years as part of a group that was also understaffed to help planes avoid new hazards like cranes and buildings. Like, why did you lay those people off? Elon Musk says he's going to, like, send in his SpaceX engineers. Great, I'm sure they can build rocket ships, but like now they're just going to run into the FAA. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. And I think it's not even necessarily, like, look, is it Trump's fault that the planes were falling out of the sky? We have no idea.

Probably not in most cases. But what is true is that our safety is at risk and has been at risk for some time because the FAA is understaffed. and air traffic control in particular is understaffed. And now we have an administration who doesn't give a shit about government oversight or safety and wants everything to be, you know, as efficient and business-like as possible, where it's like, well, that's great if you're running a company where the goal is to make a bunch of profit. But we're not trying to make a bunch of profit and run the FAA as slim and efficient as possible. We want redundancy in the FAA.

Batten up the FAA. Because we want safety, right? Which is why we want redundancy at the group that looks at our nukes, right? You want extra people there. You want extra people in food safety, right? There's some functions where, yeah, we do want a little bit bigger government because our safety is at risk. And the goal is not to just turn a profit. And I do think, like, making that argument, which is grounded in truth and facts, then tells people,

okay, these fuckers are talking about DEI and then this plane crashed and then they're cutting FAA like what is going on and I think we have to be like no there is a problem with aviation that Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden identified that problem working on it and then these guys came in and they're just trying to break

everything and that's going to put people at risk it's going to put people at risk you know how does it make you feel given your you're already strong disdain for flying that this is the issue overtaking the country right now Just, I mean, I'm getting just on my Xanax filled up for next flight.

When is the next travel? Honestly, I think I'm not flying until mid-March. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm getting on that plane, and I'm going to have to be comatose. Yeah. Have you considered travel by boat? I was going to get like a John Madden-style bus. It should be cheap enough because now that we own the Panama Canal, I don't think there's any fees to go through.

Yeah, that's, yeah. So, well, thank you for joining for everybody watching right now. So please go ahead and subscribe to Pod Save America's YouTube channel. I'll put the link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Favs, thanks so much for joining. Thanks for having me. No lie is brought to you by Beam. So let's talk about sleep, which I feel like is my mortal enemy.

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I'm joining now by Jen Saki. Thanks so much for joining me. Hi, Brian Tyler Cohen. I love to see you. How are you? I'm doing okay. It seems that I'm doing a little better than Trump this morning because we're looking at a new raft of polls that are just out. It shows his approval rating dropping into the mid-40s. Now, obviously, polling and the American people have a contentious relationship, to say the least. But I'm wondering from your vantage after serving in a White House where the approval rating of a president, even though a lot of us like to cast it aside, was a pretty good indicator of where, where, you know, the approval rating of a president, even though a lot of us like to cast it aside, was a pretty good indicator of where, he stood and how the American people viewed him. And so I'm wondering how much of a five-alarm fire is the

fact that already, in what should be his honeymoon period, Trump's approval is dropping even below the point that Biden's was at in this point in his presidency? Well, first of all, every White House denies they look at polls and they all pour over every poll and get updated internal polling every week. So don't let anyone tell you otherwise. And I'm sure they're looking at that within the Trump White House. Now, the numbers this morning were startling if you're working in a White House because it showed a dramatic drop, as you just said. And it does show that the impact of his policies, it matters. People are seeing it and they're like, wait, is this what I voted for? Is this what I pulled the lever for? And I think that's what you're seeing. I don't know if I'd call it a five

alarm fire. And I don't think Democrats or people who are opposing the Trump administration should see it as we've won. It's over. It's just an indication that activism matters, that people speaking out and calling out and explaining the impact on communities of his policies matters, and that all of these things, I mean, there were moments after the election. I don't know about you. Actually, I know because we talked about this. It felt like, is anything we're saying mattering? Does it matter? And I think the answer is it does. And that's one of the things that these numbers tell you. Well, look, you'd mention that this is startling,

and it will be startling for the folks in the White House who, of course, are going to look at this stuff. But I guess to build on the exact point that you were bringing up in the sense that does it matter, I mean, this is a president and a cabinet that doesn't seem to really care about delivering on the things. Like, look, he ran a campaign that was wholly predicated on bringing down the cost of rent, bringing down the cost of housing, bringing down the cost of food,

bringing down the cost of eggs. And since that time, he's been engaged in trade wars, levying tariffs on foreign countries, alienating our allies, releasing January 6th insurrectionists. So it seems like there's a massive disconnect between the guy he was when he was running for votes and the guy who he is as president of the United States. And so do you think that, I mean, I know that we just came off the topic of whether it matters, but for him, does his approval rating matter in the same? sense that he's a lame duck president who really seems not to care at all about adhering to any of the things that he promised during the campaign? Well, first of all, I think he's always been the same guy. He just knew he just would say things that he thought would be effective to win.

Right. And by the way, not to cut you off, but like in his first term, he ran his campaign predicated on getting a jobs boom, getting a manufacturing renaissance, an infrastructure law that became a joke of that administration, a health care plan that was cheaper and more comprehensive. And all he did was pass a tax cut for millionaires and billionaires when he actually got into office. Correct. And if you think Donald Trump cares about the cost of eggs or even knows what the cost of eggs is currently and how much has gone up, I have a bridge to sell you. I mean, that is not what he cares about as a person. He does care about being popular.

and he cares about having political support. So there's lots of ways to define that. And blissfully, neither you nor I are in his head. But what does that mean? If his MAGA base is still with him, including people who are having a hard time paying for groceries, maybe he doesn't care that the cost of eggs hasn't come down. But if he sees dramatic drops in approval that are continuous and consistent on things like the economy, then he may care. We'll see. But he does care about that. I don't think he cares about human beings.

The other thing I would just add to your list, which I think is hugely impactful and we're going to see more and more impacts of, are these budgetary cuts that they said they didn't make, that a court ordered them to undo, then they didn't undo. And now the impact of those are significant on communities. We're seeing them in rural communities, farmers, red states, doesn't matter. but it is interesting politically. We're seeing them in terms of people being even resources being cut from the VA, veterans trying to get help and assistance. We're seeing them in terms of early child care centers. These are things that impact people in their communities. And they may have voted for Trump just because who knows why.

But these are things that it's like, wait, is government, is this working for me? Is this change working for me? It's not working for a lot of people. Well, look, if they're successful in passing the budget that they've laid out thus far, we're going to see a reduction in Medicaid, we're going to see a reduction in funding for student loans, we're going to see a reduction in funding for food stamps, all so that really they can fund tax cuts, which at the end of the day are not going to even out. It's going to still lead to a massive explosion in the deficit. And so all of this is not going to give Republicans, is going to take away popular programs, and it's not going to give Republicans the thing they purport to care about, which is being fiscally responsible. So they get neither. And really, the game is given up in the sense that for the second time in a road during a Trump administration, we're going to see everything, you know, caution thrown into the wind completely in deference to a tax cut for millionaires and billionaires. But the reason

that I bring that up is like, is you have so many programs that are popular. You have, like, Republicans use Medicaid. Republicans use food stamps. Republicans, Republican voters have, are contending with predatory student loans. Republicans care about the deficit. Republicans recognize that the interest on the debt is a massive line item that we all have to pay for with our tax dollars. And so do you think that there will come a point

where kind of popular pressure is going to bear down on them because the way that they're acting right now, and I'm not talking about Trump, I'm talking about everybody else in the party that kind of is perfectly content to cast everything aside and grovel at his feet, do you think there's going to come a point where that is going to have an impact on those people who are running?

Or is it just a situation where it's so important to just cowtow to Trump that even if it means casting aside every single piece of their political ideology in deference to him, that's what they're going to do? I think we're going to see the same thing until they're feeling political pain. And that's disappointing and it's kind of gross and it's not what people were elected to do. You're elected to represent the people in your state or your district or whatever it may be. All the domestic examples are great examples and also hugely impactful examples on communities. The other example, I would say, where it shows in a very crystal clear way their unwillingness, far too many of them, to stand by their principles, is Russia, right? It was not that long ago, 10 years, but even two years or a year ago, when a number of these same Republican senators and Republican members of Congress, and some people were even in the

current administration, including Marco Rubio, who were saying Putin is a major threat. It is immoral not to support the Ukrainians, provide them with arms, ensure that we are defending them and standing up for them. And now the same people seem okay with the Trump administration's approach, which is let Russia have all of the land, all of the leverage. Not even being willing to that Russia was the aggressor in this war. Correct. And that is not an example that people may feel like impacts them in their everyday lives. And it probably doesn't for most people. But it does tell you the willingness to bend themselves into pretzels and to give up their spines in order to please Trump. And that's the political calculation they've made.

Jen, from your vantage, having worked in the White House, how cataclysmic of a move. is what's happening between the U.S. and Russia right now, seemingly coddling up, or not seemingly, I mean, clearly coddling up to Putin and at the same time, not only abandoning Ukraine, but abandoning our allies in Europe. I mean, like, this looks like a massive reordering of the post-World War II peace structure that's led to decades and decades and decades of peace among the world. Yeah, look, I never thought I'd be quoting the national. the former national security advisor for Trump, John Bolton.

But there's a moment, and we're in 2025. And he basically said last week, the Russians are drinking vodka straight from the bottle right now. Because for a range of reasons, yes, it is Ukraine and the territory that they've long wanted and fought for. But yes, it's also that the Trump administration is giving them all of the leverage in advance of negotiations by saying you can have the land. Right. It's also giving them a version of a green light to Eastern Europe and other places that they may have because some of these countries were former parts of the USSR back in those days. They may want, they have aspirations for additional land and space as well. So it is a reordering and it is sending a message to the world.

The United States is not going to stand up against big countries illegally invading small. countries, which, by the way, is kind of a global order type of value. So it is something that I think has the potential to have cataclysmic impacts on the global order, how our allies see us around the world, are we a reliable partner anymore, and also what license it's giving to countries like Russia to take additional actions like this. So we're seeing instances where, for example, Pete Hagseth came forward and preempted the White House or preempted Trump by saying that Ukraine getting membership into NATO was off the table, was a non-starter. And then, of course, the White House walked it back. But I think the message was already sent. In any case, it's being

framed as a gaffe. You have somebody like Sean Duffy, the Transportation Secretary, of course, presiding over a daily deluge of collisions and crashes and planes falling in. out of the sky. Meanwhile, he's posting pictures of himself going on joy rides on Air Force One to the Daytona 500. From your vantage, having worked in the White House for years, and seeing the scrutiny that was placed on Biden administration officials for what were, you know, seemingly nothing gaffs, but, I mean, we've seen the extent to which right-wing media will blow up nothing burgers into major problems. I mean, back to the days of, like, Obama wearing a tan suit. How do you, How do you perceive the asymmetry right now that there is just overall crickets from right-wing media for things that you and I both know they would get fucking obliterated on if Pete Buttigieg was overseeing the Department of Transportation where planes could not stay airborne?

I mean, well, first of all, here's the thing. Again, I'm just quoting John Bolton and defending Pete Heggseth. We're in opposite worlds. I think Pete Hegsef was like unqualified and immorally corrupt to be in this job. I don't think that was a gaffe. I think that he was stating the position of the administration. So, and I understand there were some senators who were like, oh, he's new. He's a newbie.

It's like, yes. But I don't think that was a mistake on his part. I think he was stating what Trump had probably said to him in the sit room. Duffy, again, not to be a defender of his, but the biggest problem here, one of them, appears to be the unelected, unchosen, Elon Musk and the Doge crew going in and taking a random wrecking ball to agencies and government, including the FAA, including a number that have regulatory authority over some of Elon Musk's companies, by the way, which I'm sure is not a coincidence. And cutting positions that are essential.

That Sean Duffy is defending that. So that should be critiqued. But it's like these figures in the cabinet are almost just like powerless puppets. and Trump and Musk are running the whole thing. Yeah, they're just building on what you were saying, these agencies that have regulatory oversight over Elon. I mean, we know that there were investigations or action being taken against Elon at like the EPA,

at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, at the Department of Labor, the National Labor Relations Board, USAID, I mean, all of these agencies that he had gone into and gutted or that Trump had fired the Inspector General, love. These are all agencies that had levied fines, for example, that were investigating Elon's companies. And so I think that's the most shocking part of all of this is the way in which they're able to be successful in framing all of this as him, like, rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. If you wanted to root out waste, fraud, and abuse, think about the one agency that

has failed more audits than all of these other agencies combined. You have the Department of Defense right there in front of you, but you start with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which has returned $21 billion to over 200 million consumers in this. this country. You start with USAID, which is half of 1% of the budget and delivers HIV prevention and clean water to communities around the world while also giving us soft power for like a fraction of the price that it would cost to send the military into these places. Those are the places you start with. You also wouldn't fire the IGs. I mean, inspectors general, I will tell you from working for two Democratic presidents, they're a headache for everyone. You know why? Because they're investigating

every agency, and they find stuff, including waste and fraud and abuse, they wouldn't be firing them. If they actually cared about waste, fraud, and abuse, they'd be taking their reports, they'd be looking at them, and figuring out what to use to root out and to address. Let's switch gears here and talk about the blueprints. That's a new show that you started. What is it and why did you want to start it at this point in time? Well, it's a, it's a podcast. We do video as well. But you were one of the people I talked to about this and talk to in the week, days and weeks after the election, just about what just happened and what does it mean from here? And it doesn't mean that everything needs to be ripped up.

I'm a believer, and I think you are too, that a lot of the things that Democrats stand for, and I don't just mean, of course, the obvious rule of law, defensive democracy, those are hugely important. I also mean standing up for working men and women, also making education something that people can be accessible to people, ensuring that we're setting our kids up for a better future. Those are all things that are good bases. It didn't connect with the working people. And so to me, there's lots of reasons here. There's a messaging question, but maybe there's a policy question, too. It's not always a comms problem. It's worth discussing. There's disinformation, misinformation. How do you address that? There's a risk aversion. There's a crazy level of risk

a version among Democrats, which at this point, throw out the window. Say fuck when appropriate. Yes, not in random moments, but just free yourself a little bit here. You know, there's that. And so I really thought about who were the people who I knew would be candid, who could really assess without knowing the full answers and have a discussion about it. And it became a podcast. Yeah. And so how do you think about that like differently from the show that you're currently doing with MSNBC inside with Jensock? Oh my God. It's so different. different. I don't know what it is about a podcast or a video. People just become more relaxed. I think I even become more relaxed because you're not trying to jam everything into six minutes. And the thing is you know when you're hosting a show is people will say, okay, three minutes in, you have two minutes left. And you've got to go to commercial and you got to go because you've got to get to the next guest. So often I find you feel rushed and you don't have the time to have these conversations. And also, There's so much going on with Trump right now.

I don't want to live a Trump-dominated television life, but he is the current president of the United States who is wreaking havoc on our country, and we have to explain and explore it and hold him accountable. So a lot of what we're talking about is that. And this is an opportunity to talk about the other side of things in a broader way. Just to give people who are watching and listening right now an idea,

you'll have a producer in your ear counting down or telling you how much time you have left. In the middle of a rant, you have somebody saying like 30 seconds or 10 seconds or wrap it up. And you're like, listen, Brian. And on Monday is, first of all, Rachel Maddow's a National Treasure. And she goes, her show is after mine on Mondays.

And I like live in fear. Like this is one of the things I get nervous about, about like 10 seconds over into her show, you know? And so you have to keep on time. And yeah, but you know, there's also one of the things, and you and I've listened to a lot of, a podcast and other things that are from like people who are in the right wing people who aren't even in the right wing they're just like doing things that are in a different way yeah and they're a

lot more casual they're a lot more conversational and i think that's important um it doesn't mean you have to have the answer it just means let's explore it together yeah i think there's something to be said for for just unlearning a lot of a lot of how to communicate in media which is which is largely been focused on on communicating on linear TV, when you get more comfortable with just being able to sit down on a couch and have a long conversation with somebody, that will then kind of inform how you operate in other aren't in other aren't in aren't in the same way that if you're only talking on TV, that informs how you speak to regular people. And so I think kind of like unlearning habits that it's not that they're bad habits, it's just that habits that aren't

really in vogue right now, aren't resonating right now. I mean, this is like an era of authenticity I mean, this was dubbed the podcast election, and so I think being able to speak to people in a way that they're more inclined to listen to you, I think that that kind of has benefits like throughout everything you do. Yeah, and I'm genuinely interested in people I talk to on TV too, but there's something that's different about having a 40-minute conversation with somebody. And so who have you spoken to thus far? So so far we've done, we've had Governor Westmore, Jack Schlossberg, who's JFK's grandson, Rahm Emanuel, Don Lemon. And then next week we have Jamel Hill, who is a former ESPN anchor, and also J.B. Pritzker. Okay. So, yeah, it's people who are just going to speak their mind as kind of the list of people I really wanted to talk to.

I'm curious whether you are seeing a difference in like how elected are speaking to you, because usually I find that when it's elected versus commentators or hosts, it's much easier to get them to speak freely and not have to rely on like rote talking points. But especially as we get toward, you know, the election time, then it's just, then it's just talking point city. But I'm curious if you've already seen some move, whether it's with, even in your conversation with Westmore, whether there's more. whether there's more of an embrace of kind of not relying on not sounding like a politician in the way that people have in the past yeah and it's also kind of a test of whether people can do that right i mean westmore's a great example you know there are things that he's the governor of maryland he has millions of federal workers in a state we actually sat down and did an interview a tape tv interview right before we did the podcast two for one around here yeah and he was still

quite effective and good but we were talking about really you know the gutting of the fbi and things like the thing about the podcast is you can have a conversation that's much more broad, right, about Republicans taking over the mantle of patriotism. I mean, he's a veteran. He had some really interesting things to say about that. He told me about how he used to run the Robin Hood Foundation, which is focused on poverty in New York, how when he was first running for governor, pollsters told him not to use the word poverty, which is like, you know, so it enerced things that are just much more telling us.

about people. Everybody can't do it, but everybody needs to learn how to do it, which is speak like a human being and kind of jeans on a sweatshirt or a sweater or whatever you're wearing, because that's what every, that's how everybody is. Nobody's sitting, as it Don Lemon said to me, actually, nobody's sitting on their couch in a suit and tie waiting to hear an update on politics from you. And I'm like, does that mean I know it's no longer have to wear a suit because I'll burn them in a fire? That's my, but it's been really eye-opening and a good way, because I think it helps you explore in this moment. Where does everybody go from here? Because that didn't exactly work. Right. Well, I'm glad at least that, like, look,

I'm grateful for you being able to get into these new spaces. I think that the more people on the left who are able to embrace, like, changing things and recognizing that what we did in the past isn't going to, isn't going to be effective moving forward. And so I think being able to iterate is especially important. So grateful for you doing it. Where can we get the blueprint? Anywhere you get podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, anywhere you get them, we are there. Excellent. Well, I'll put the link right here on the screen and also in the post description of this video. Jen, thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you. Great seeing you. Thanks again to John and Jen. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week.

You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating in a review. And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels or you can go to Brian Tyler Cohen.com to learn more.