No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Florida governor takes victory lap as cases surge

Episode Date: August 8, 2021

Republican Governor Ron DeSantis takes a victory lap as Florida’s COVID cases surge. Brian interviews Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman about the infamous Trump-Ukraine phone call that he listened in on, which led to Trump’s impeachment; whether he sees a link between how Republicans treated him and how Republicans treated the Capitol Police after January 6; and his thoughts on Trump running for president in 2024. And New York Times op-ed contributing writer Kara Swisher joins to discuss disinformation on both Fox News and Facebook.Donate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Republican Governor Ron DeSantis taking a victory lap as Florida's coronavirus cases surge. I interviewed Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman about the infamous Trump-Ukraine phone call that he was on, which led to Trump's impeachment, whether he sees a link between how Republicans treated him and how Republicans treated the Capitol Police after January 6th and his thoughts on Trump running for president in 2024. And New York Times op-ed contributing writer Kara Swisher joins to discuss disinformation on both Fox News and Facebook. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Live. If you want to understand what constitutes success in today's Republican Party, just look at Florida. Ron DeSantis is now overseeing the worst outbreak in the country, and he's now the favorite to become the 2024 Republican presidential nominee behind Trump. Like, something about your willingness to kill your own constituents that's just too appealing for the Republican Party to pass up. Florida's cases are now surging past 23,000 per day, which are record high single-day case counts.

And that's since the pandemic began, not just lately, but since the beginning. The state's also seen record-breaking hospitalizations for a week straight. And even though Florida makes up just over 6% of the U.S. population, the state accounts for almost 20% of the country's new cases. And we're now at the point where Florida is seeing not tens, but hundreds of deaths per day. And that's with a vaccine. Like, we literally have the solution right in front of us, and yet still DeSantis has allowed the virus to be even worse than when there was no vaccine at all.

And yet, instead of taking this opportunity to, oh, I don't know, recognize that there's a problem and address it with even an ounce of humility, DeSantis instead is going on a victory lap and using the attention to attack Joe Biden for the crime of trying to help. Like, just listen to this. Here's the plea by Biden that tipped off this feud. The escalation of cases is particularly concentrated in states with low vaccination rates. Just two states. Florida and Texas account for one-third of all new COVID-19 cases in the entire country, just two states. Look, we need leadership from everyone.

If some governors aren't willing to do the right thing to beat this pandemic, then they should allow businesses and universities who want to do the right thing to be able to do it. I say to these governors, please help, but you aren't going to help at least get out of the way. And the people are trying to do the right thing. Use your power to save lives. And yet somehow that plea warranted this response. Why don't you do your job? Why don't you get this border secure?

And until you do that, I don't want to hear a blip about COVID from you. Thank you. Right, because Biden asking for help so that Floridians can survive was clearly the shot across the bow that DeSantis is making it out to be. Like, Trump left his mark on the GOP in a lot of ways, but none more than showing just how thin-skinned all of these supposed tough guys are, that even a plea for help for DeSantis' own state is caused for him to turn it into a pissing contest. And so, clearly, because Joe Biden's position is to take measures to contain this pandemic,

the de facto position for Republicans is to do the opposite. And honestly, the fact is that we should have seen this coming. Here's why we can't pretend that we didn't know that Republicans would oppose Democrats for the sake of opposing Democrats. Democrats supported testing and contact tracing and stay-at-home orders and masks, and because of that, Republicans didn't. Even though we were in the middle of a pandemic and even though hundreds of thousands of Americans were dying. If the GOP couldn't manage to say, you know, okay, yeah, you know what? On second thought, maybe we paused the culture war for five minutes on account of the third biggest mass casualty event in U.S. history happening right now, If Republicans can't say that, then they are not capable of coming around on anything.

And like, if mass death doesn't do it, then nothing will. And so now, do we really expect them to come around on vaccines, on reimposing mask mandates in schools? Come on. Even while their own base is dying at an exponentially higher rate than other Americans, still they won't change course. Still, most Fox News hosts are pushing anti-vax propaganda. Still Republican lawmakers are trying to sue Nancy Pelosi for establishing a mask mandate. Still, Ronda Sanchez is threatening to withhold funding to school districts that try to impose their own mask mandates. Nothing will stop them because the Republican Party isn't accountable to anyone other than Donald Trump.

There is no number of dead Americans that would ever take precedence over a pat on the head from the former president. And we're seeing that play out in real time. So knowing that, knowing that Republicans will oppose Democrats because their political DNA is not about making government work, It's about breaking government and blaming it on Democrats to allow themselves to take power. Democrats need to be able to adjust their approach. Republicans will screech about vaccine requirements anyway, so impose them. Why? Because of the right thing to do in terms of public safety and because they're popular among the majority of Americans. A Gallup poll just found that two-thirds of Americans want mask mandates among unvaccinated teachers and students in schools.

A morning consult poll showed 56% of adults said employers should require vaccinations for their employees and customers. Only 32% said they shouldn't. The COVID-States project found that 64% of Americans approved of the government requiring everyone to get a COVID vaccine. All but three states, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming had a majority in favor of mandatory vaccines. That includes 84% of Democrats and even 45% of Republicans who supported government-mandated vaccines for everyone. In other words, this is an issue that Democrats are united behind and that splits Republicans. Democrats aren't in the weak position here. Republicans are. So instead of being so afraid of these cultural wars, why not just win them? Like,

we're on the rights out of these issues. We're on firmer ground. Americans don't want a dwindling faction of anti-vaxxers keeping this pandemic raging for the rest of time. So let's not pretend that just because Republicans base of, what, 30% of Americans is loud, that they're in the majority because they're not. They're in the minority. And their governing philosophy is too. And if Democrats want the rest of us to keep them in the majority, then they have to be able to prove that they're actually able to wield power when they're given it. So let's stop pretending that the GOP is going to be good faith negotiating partners, and let's start expecting the obstruction and the culture wars and be on the offense from the

start. Vaccines save lives. The majority of the country wants them. Great. Encourage them anywhere and everywhere, and let's get it done. Masks keep people safe in the meantime. The majority of the country wants them. Great.

Encourage them everywhere, too, and let's get it done. No pussy footing around it. No waffling. No being afraid that, you know, Hannity is going to whine, that he feels like his freedoms are being taken away, the positions being espoused by Democrats are not only the morally right thing to do, but they're popular with the majority of Americans. So if Republicans want to turn everything into a culture war, that's fine. Let's just win them. Next step is my interview with Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. Okay, today we have the

author of the new book, Here Right Matters, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me on. So you've secured your place in history, so I feel like be missing out on a major opportunity if I didn't start with this. Could you walk me through the events of the phone call? People, I guess, are familiar with me because of my testimony following President Trump's phone call with President Zelensky on July 25, 2019. In that phone call, President Trump attempted to extort an investigation into Hunter Biden and implicate Joe Biden in wrongdoing in order to help advance Trump's incumbency and ability to secure a re-election in 2020.

And I was the official on the call. I actually was the official that coordinated the call, requested that the call happened, monitored the portfolio, and maybe a small way exercised the poor judgment and let this thing happen in the first place. So after the phone call, sensing that the president was trying to do this,

steal an election, it to proper channels. Ultimately, a whistleblower complaint revealed this presidential wrongdoing, and I was called to testify in front of Congress, sitting army officer testifying against his commander chief in an impeachment. What was the phone call like in the sense that did you understand while it was happening the gravity of what was happening? So like for the rest of us, like once it kind of, you know, sank in, we all had the benefit of being able to look around and being like, wait, this this isn't good, is it? But you were there in real time. It was happening in real time. So were you

able to understand that gravity while it was happening? I did. It was in a way a slow-moving train wreck. That's a good way to describe the entire last four years. I think that's fair. I think that's fair with one caveat, because this is important to mention, is that you still had a enormous amount of just amazing public servants, toiling away, trying to continue to advance U.S. national security interests, not in a kind of a deep state looking to undo the president's policy, but to manage the crises that the president himself created unintentionally, mainly because of incompetence. I did understand the gravity, and that's, again, because it was a train wreck, because over the preceding months, you had non-governmental officials, folks close to the president,

the president's inner circle intervening into foreign policy, into national security matters, ultimately resulted in Mashi Ivanovich being fired from her position as ambassador, further undermined our ability to engage with Ukraine when Vice President Pence, the designated official to attend the inauguration, President Zelensky's inauguration in Ukraine, backed out, continued to occur when Rudolph Giuliani proceeded to demand investigations into the Bidens, you had a hold on security assistance, you had all sorts of things unfolding. On that phone call, the only piece that was missing is who is the driving force. So I understood what was going on.

I understood, you know, what the play was to favor the president in President Trump in the upcoming 2020 elections. But what I had, maybe in certain ways, because of my reverence for the office of the president and being a serving military officer, tried to believe that the president, no, as bad as he was, wasn't, was involved. And the president coming on that line, the tone from the very beginning, suggests that this was going to be a bad phone call. And when President Zelensky asked for more javelins to defend his country against Russian aggression, the president chimed in with, I need you to do us a favor, though. It all kind of came together. After that, I went to report this to the legal officials on the National Security Council to get this undone, tried to stem the kind of the damage. And I walked into my twin brother's office because I wanted to be a witness to my complaint. And I told the close the door, I told him, Eugene, if what I'm about to tell you ever becomes

public, the president would be impeached. Now, are you able to say what Eugene said after that? I think we just deliberated over, you know, what this, what this means. He immediately latched onto the gravity of the situation. My twin brother, he was there for me. He joined me in reporting the phone call. He sat behind me when I testified. He was basically there all along the way.

Did you know you were going to be excommunicated immediately, immediately upon taking this to NSC officials and your brother? It was pretty clear to me really quite early on that there were going to be significant risks. This is a notoriously vindictive. Trump administration was a notoriously vindictive administration. Worst case scenario, maybe I leave the White House. I had a year under my belt. It's a very successful year. I had an excellent evaluation from my boss, Fiona Hill. So I thought I would still be indecent standing there. I turned out that my

hopes in that regard were a little bit misplaced. Now, what was the environment in the White House like for you in the events leading up to Trump's impeachment? Obviously, you know, this started to come out. Your involvement was known. And yet you still have to show up there to work every day. and what you yourself conceded was a vindictive administration. You know, in the first year, I was a valued member of the staff with access to basically all of the leadership, the National Security Advisor, Deputy National Security Advisor, almost immediately after making my complaint, I was ostracized. I was no longer in good standing.

I was being cut out of meetings at the political level. But at the same time, the reason I stayed on is because I still thought I was well positioned to do good things. I was maybe politically unreliable to the kind of nefarious characters that were looking to serve the president's interest, but amongst the departments and agencies, the folks I work with, the deputy assistant secretaries, I was in good standing. I could still do my job. I still was able to operate within my office. It's just above that level, it became very difficult. And I knew that every action I was doing was scrutinized. They were looking for dirt on me and whatever they could to kind of trip me up.

Now, I know that Trump's acolytes will attack anyone who doesn't tow the line as some far-left communist Democrat. Did you identify as being part of a political party, or do you now? So now I'm definitely, you know, kind of bending towards the Democratic Party. I've been nonpartisan for the entirety of my military career. I mean, unfortunately, I took that to extremes and didn't vote two or, often in elections. I registered as an 18-year-old as a Democrat. I grew up in New York City. That was kind of a natural thing to do. And I guess at some point later on, I registered as an

independent just because in certain states, it's easier to kind of vote for whichever candidate you think is best positioned, whether that's primaries or general elections. But my own personal kind of leanings probably tend to be to hue a little bit closer to the right on foreign policy issues based on my first-hand experience and the desire to have a strong defense, but towards the left on social issues. I mean, I cannot kind of stomach the views of the Republican, the mainstream Republican Party that's kind of bought into to Trump's, you know, with disdain for people that are not, not white, you know, that were regressive on, unbelievably regressive on immigration issues. I'm an immigrant. So I take some of those things personally.

LGBT issues, inequality, which is probably one of the fundamental issues affecting the United States. I think that the Republican Party is out of step with the bulk of society. And then even on the, you know, on the national security stuff that I probably tend to be a little bit more hawkish on because I understand Russia and the fact that we need to take a strong line with Russia, that, you know, I have probably a slightly more nuanced view on, you know, budgetary issues and things that nature. So it's a, it's, I guess I can fall into the moderate category. Now, there were two tranches of people who've spoken out publicly. against Trump. There was the first one, you know, while he was in office, the people who were

retaliated against and skewered by Republicans. And that's people like you, Marie Yvanovitch, Fiona Hill. And then there was the second, people who've come out now that Trump's safely out of office. People like Bill Barr, who's trying to rehab his image now. Do you have any messages for the bill bars of the world who've waited until the coast was clear to suggest that, in fact, they were also some saviors for democracy? I take maybe a strategic, view on this, and I say we should pick up all of the allies we can get. We are facing a very, very difficult struggle to wrestle a significant segment of society out of Trump and Trumpism. And we should listen to what they have to say. They probably have some valid

criticisms, but that does not mean in any way that we should not hold these folks accountable. We probably need to a lot of ways encourage more people to step forward. Because on my drumbeat of accountability, these are folks that were in the know and knew all the misdeeds, know where the skeletons are, know where the bodies are buried. We need to encourage those folks to speak out. And in certain ways, be a little bit more measured in our criticism. Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. These are people that had every opportunity to step out when it mattered, when it mattered going into elections.

When it mattered to expose presidential corruption, they failed to do that. We should hold them to account. But we also need to hear what they have to say and add that ammunition to the fire that we need to apply to Trump and Trumpism. That is the biggest threat. And we shouldn't be kind of distracted by seeking kind of retribution for some sort of tactical victory. We have a strategic objective in mind.

Do you see a link between a Republican Party that not only, abandoned you but tried to destroy you. And, you know, as a member of the military, which the GOP has sold itself as a strong defender of. And now how the Republican Party has not only abandoned but tried to destroy the police officers attacked on January 6th. And of course, the Republican parties also branded itself as a strong defender of the police. That is an absolutely disgusting feature of party politics and the Republican Party that exists today. It is hard to kind of understand a party that is so duplicitous, so two-faced. that in one moment can claim to be pro national security, pro-defense, pro-police, and then demonize

the folks with it coming out of those institutions. And I'm not talking about myself, but the folks, like the folks that defended held the line on January 6th, that epitomized service, selfless service. That is disgusting. And one of the things I've talked about repeatedly now is that those politicians need to be held to account. They're duplicitous. They fail to live up to their oaths and their obligations, and we should not let them off the hook. In upcoming elections, this should be thrown right back in their faces,

and this should be one of the key items that they're addressed on. You know, there's this mirage around policy disagreements and how the right Republican Party still kind of adheres to principled policy approaches. is not true. They do not have a policy. They literally do not have a policy platform going into 2020 elections. Who's backing Trump and Trumpism? So there is, that is a red herring argument that, you know, this is a policy disagreement. It's not. It's a culture of war. And on one hand, we have, we have cowardly, un-American duplicitous behavior. In the other hand, we have folks that are trying to do the right thing. And this is not about, this is not, I'm not even

talking about politics or political parties. I'm just talking about the human beings that, that are kind of exemplifying trying to do something good for this country and are being attacked. This symbol I wear on my shoulder, the American flag, it means something to me. One of the reasons I've been wearing is on every appearance I had pretty much is because I want to take the symbol back. Americans, too often do now see this as a symbol of Trump and Trumpism. It is being stolen by a far right that, along with a Trump flag, flies an American flag. That is not what America is about. It's not about idolatry.

It's not about the mirage of and the cult of personality around an individual. It's about the 50 states, all of us being together, e pluribus unum. And this is what the symbol means to me. And this is what I think we should remember. And we should all fly this, frankly, fly the symbol proudly. Building on that, you know, given your intimate experience with Donald Trump, what are your thoughts on the prospect of a presidential run in 2024? You know, from a strategic standpoint, it seems hard to fathom a 2024 run from a president

that continues to kind of divvy up a pie and get smaller and smaller slices of the electorate. In the 2020 elections, President Biden blew out President Trump, $81 million to $74 million and change. That's a huge margin of 7 million votes. an unprecedented large margin. There is no question in my mind that after January 6th, that number shrank. And it continues to shrink with the provocation of the big lie and the divisiveness. So it's hard to imagine how, you know, he could be a viable candidate.

It's quite possible he might make it through the primary, but he's not going to be a viable general election candidate. The question is, what does he do in the meantime? How much does he continue to polarize the party and make the Republican Party a shadow of itself? a Republican Party that at one point, the Grand Al Party that had honor on it because it was the party of Lincoln is no way resembles what it is today. I think that the president is going to pick, you know, target individuals that are not Trumpy enough for him and make their lives living hell, potentially be successful, a mixed bag of successes, but he's going to do an enormous amount of damage while he's doing that. And, you know, I hate on the one hand this idea of Trump stealing the airwaves because he does. But on the other hand, it's important to kind of denounce him and shine light on his corruption. I agree.

Well, let's end with this. You know, you said while you were testifying, dad, don't worry, I'll be fine for telling the truth. What message do you have for your dad now that this chapter is finally over? This was an important, I guess, element that both for me, because I, you know, I took the time to address this with my dad. It was my twin brother that gets credit. He's the one that said I should make this entry into my opening statement to put my dad's mind at ease. But it's also kind of the broader message, I guess, of writing this book. The reason I wrote this book is that there was an opportunity to respond to all of the positivity, all the support

I received that I couldn't possibly answer individually, but could potentially do it by writing a book and talking about the things that were important to me, what it was about my immigrant background, a feature that all Americans share, deep roots or recent roots as immigrants, talking about service, which is unfortunately becoming a more distant concept because there are so few people that serve in the military, something that I really strongly encourage, not just military service, but federal service, state service, community service. It's talking about that and what it means and kind of touting. the abilities of our public servants in office.

And talking about, frankly, the tools I assembled through my experiences to navigate a very, very difficult affair, how to do the right thing in the right way, what it took to do that, and how to live with the consequences on the back end, nothing has been easy. My dad was right in that regard, that there were personal costs, nothing has been easy, everything has been a challenge, nothing has been given to me. I have had to continue to work really, really hard. But I could live with my actions. I could live with the consequences of my actions

because I know they made an impact. And what I tell my dad is what I would tell other Americans. Doing the right thing is its own reward. It doesn't give you a free pass, but it does give you a way to kind of continue to live with yourself, look your children in the eye, and be the person that you want to be. Well, he's got a lot to be proud of.

So again, the book is Here, Right Matters. Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, thank you for taking the time to talk today. And thank you for standing up for what's right. Thank you. Okay, thanks again to Alexander Vindman. Now I'm joined by contributing writer for the New York Times opinion section and host of the podcast Sway and the podcast Pivot. Kara Swisher, thanks for coming on.

Thank you very much. So this is less tech and more media, but I want to start with what I think is the biggest issue right now, which is Fox News. This outlet has gone beyond the bullshit culture war scandals that we're used to, the tan suit, gray poupon. And they graduated to helping Trump and Republicans literally undermine a free and fair election. Now they're promoting vaccine disinformation in the middle of a pandemic to their own audience who are dying at a rate of 99.9% compared to unvaccinated people. And so the Overton window has shifted to a place that's so far off the cliff. So at this point, how is this kind of a thing fixed and or is it even fixable?

Well, it's a question if you want to fix it, right? I mean, you could decry it and everything else. By the way, it's not 99 more. The people who are getting sick are unvaccinated people and they're promoting lack of vaccinations. Now, the vaccinated Fox Watchers are fine. They're fine. My mom is a vaccinated Foxwatcher.

She does not get the virus and she's safe. And she's, you know, she's safe as she can be. Obviously, you can still get the COVID with the vaccine, but you're projected in terms of hell of her hospitalization and you just won't get as sick. So there are Fox viewers who are vaccinated. Let's be fair to them. You know, I think the question is, there's nothing you can do about it.

This is, you know, in the case of people getting kicked off of Facebook or Twitter or anything else, everyone's my First Amendment right to be on there. It isn't actually. And it's also Fox's First Amendment right to be able to broadcast this direct. And so, you know, I'm not sure there's anything you can do about it except perhaps sue them, like Dominion voting is suing them for inaccurate reporting or statements that people make. That's the only really avenue you have against a person like that. you can mock them and decry them and say things to them, but they can say whatever they feel like.

And in that case, I defend the right to be just the most awful news organization and most damaging news organization on the planet, but they have that right to do that. I mean, you know, speaking of those lawsuits, it does seem like the only thing that gave any of these right-wing outlets, including Newsmax and OAN, any pause was those lawsuits. Yeah, well, that's what they're there for. That's what they're there for. I mean, that's the question you have around Internet companies is they can't be sued compared to, you know, compared to Fox. Fox can be sued and they can be sued for their quality of their stuff or their content or whatever under libel laws that I think it has to produce, you have to prove different

things. But there are mechanisms to deal with them. And you could, you could not have, you can yell at Tucker Carlson in a Montana grocery store, whatever the hell happened there. You're allowed to do all those things. But you, you know, lawsuits work really well when when people are misbehaving. But it doesn't work as is an unpopular opinion. They can have it unpopular. opinion. They can have this anti-vax opinion. The question is, are they, in a public emergency, is that liable? Are they liable for something in a public emergency? And that's, that could be actionable or not. Well, you know, Fox does get very little commercial revenue. Is there a way to effectively, in terms of the revenue that they get from, from ads versus their carriage fees,

you know, is there a way to effectively pressure cable companies into dropping Fox and stop paying into those carriage fees that basically subsidize what they don't get from their lack of regular ad breaks. I think it's only their benefit when people protest to take them off boycotting. It tends not to work and the people who love it get more. You know, they've got an audience people who love it and an audience people who hate it. And so the people who love it should be able to watch it. I hate to say it because I want my mother off of Fox News. I find she becomes murderous by the second and full of bad information and bad takes and things like that. And we spent a lot of time at the beginning of COVID, I wrote a column about this. My brother, who's a doctor, one of my

brothers is a doctor. And I spent an enormous amount of time trying to convince her it wasn't just like the flu. And this is my brother who's in these emergency rooms and dealing with this stuff. And so, you know, that was irritating and it was dangerous. You know, she was in Florida, we couldn't reach her and she wouldn't, she kept going out. She said it was just like the flu. She heard what she was hearing. And so there's just not, you can shame them into it. But boy, She likes it. She watches it every night. And so I don't really, I don't think they work. I think they have an audience that likes it and are going to use Newsmax or whatever. And the best way to deal with is lawsuits when they violate the law. And you have to prove it. And they have due process. And then just, you know, constant pressure on this company and it's employees about what they're doing, just like you would do for any other organization. You might have a problem. You know, I do want to switch gears to talk about Facebook, which, you know, for a lot of people might not be switching gears.

But, you know, on the subject of disinformation, we have Facebook. And the way that Facebook has presented itself on this issue is that they're not responsible, for example, because I think they said 85% of the information being presented on the platform is accurate without acknowledging that that also means that there's a tremendous amount of information that's inaccurate. They do acknowledge it. They just say we clean up as much as we can. That's their, that's right. And I think the problem with Facebook is it's so vast. Even a small amount is

astonishingly dangerous. And so that's the real issue is that it is, you know, they can put out these numbers of 0.1% or whatever they have various numbers, which I don't know where they get them from, honestly. But it doesn't matter. It's a lot. It's still a lot. Same thing with YouTube. Same thing, Twitter to a lesser extent. Snapchat, almost not at all. Some on TikTok. But Facebook's the biggest one. And so when they even have a small amount getting through, it's especially around. And if they're slow to get to things, that's the real damage that's done. Something can get out like that Plandemic video, for example. Right. I think that had 8 million views when all of a sudden done when they finally brought it down.

And it's still, it's still, it can proliferate the way the system is done. It's just like what happened when there was the mass murder in New Zealand. They were able to stop that particular feed, but then it had been iterated. And that's the problem with, that's the problem with the architecture of the whole thing. I'd make the argument, and I think it's a fair argument that disinformation helps the right. If we operate under the assumption that Facebook is a right-wing company, which the crowd-tangle data would suggest. Not a right-wing company. It has a lot. Right-wing does very well on it. You know, that's crowd-tangles a company that's owned by Facebook that does data around it. And they have problems with crowd-dangle. The owners have their own problems. But it shows that a lot of right-wing people do very well on it. Yeah. With that said, then do they not have a vested interest in not fixing some of this disinformation

that continues to swell on the platform? No, I don't think they care. I think you're conflating two things is I don't think they make a lot of money from it. I think it's a headache. You know, that's why Twitter shut down a lot of stuff more quickly. It's like it's a headache for them. Like it costs them money. They're much smaller.

In Facebook's case, it's a constant headache. It's all they're known for is either screwing up your privacy or screwing up your country. You know, I mean, it's not, it's not something a corporation wants to, it's sort of like being owning Disney and like three people die a day from a ride or something. It's not good. It's not good for them. And so I wouldn't say they were right wing. I think they don't care. They just don't, you know, they don't care to fix it in a way. And I don't, I'm not quite certain there is a solution. Like I talked to a lot of people who've been covering this for years and a lot of technologies and there's not a really good solution if it is a platform where people can

upload anything they want. The problem is human beings and they and and and especially malevolent players. And so short of just kicking people off like different people, which they do, they'll spend all day kicking people off and then they'll find another way in the door. It's so porous. It's really hard to prevent this kind of activity. Well, would it not, would it not be fair to say that a company as big, as powerful, as rich as Facebook shouldn't, you know, beef up there? if they see that this problem is proliferating on the platform, is it not their responsibility to then, like, to address this problem, you know, on the platform that they've created. So, for example, you can't just say, like, we're happy to take all the revenue that comes

from having such a massive, powerful platform and all of the other benefits that come with it, but not address the issues that have arisen. They would say they are. They just said it's so big and so hard and it changes so much and it's more complicated. I mean, you know, agreed. I think they, I'm a huge Facebook critic. I think they've been lazy and slow and they try to. ignore things and sort of soft-pedal it until it becomes bad. And they've done that. That's the

history of Facebook, really, pretty much. And so I think that they, they don't want to take, they abrogate responsibility for what's on there. I've come around to the idea that it's not fixable because the architecture, the way it is, the way it's architect, the concepts behind it are so much, it's impossible. And they're also related vaccine. Now, they can't clean it up. They just have to shut it down more. And that's, that's, they don't want to do that part. And I think there's a way to, like, the New York Times suddenly doesn't publish a million different ridiculous items, right?

We edit it. And so they don't want to see themselves as a media company. And because if they're a media company, they can be sued in a different way. And they're not protected in the same way. And so it's a really difficult thing because the minute they become a media company, they have, they have to clean it up. It becomes by necessity smaller. And it doesn't, the business.

plan doesn't work. They rely on the bigness of it. They rely on the sharing of it. And it's not just like any media company, because like you post something, but then you link to someone else and then you have friends. It's this web that you cannot pull apart in any way. And that's what makes it most difficult. And that's what makes it subject to so much abuse by people. Do you think that Trump will get his Facebook account back in two years? And if so, how does Facebook justify that decision, like knowing full well that he hasn't learned his lesson? in that still to this day he's spreading the exact same misinformation that he's always spread, almost verbatim.

Well, there is a thing, you know, people do have, go to prison and they get to go out once they serve their time. And so there's that argument is that if he didn't, if he has learned his lesson, if they determined that they've learned his lesson, maybe he'll draw it, pull it back in a year or so. Who knows what he's going to do? You're right. Right now he's doing the same things offline that he was doing online. I think Twitter will not bring him back, but it'll be really difficult.

The question will be difficult if he runs for president, if he wins the presidency again, how do you keep him off? It's going to put a lot of pressure on companies like Facebook and Twitter and others to bring him back on the platform. Now, should he, I think the problem was the whole time they gave him so much rope and he hung them, right? And so that's the problem is they allowed it to go on without any rules. and then, of course, because he's a persistent bad actor

and he's a persistently narcissistic and malevolent kind of personality online that he doesn't, I don't think it's his fault now. I'm like, I do just what he's doing. Like, why not? He doesn't, they don't stop him. I'll keep shoplifting. Nobody's stopping me.

Free stuff is great, you know. And so even though you can sit around and say, what a terrible person, I think he knows that or he doesn't care, doesn't care what you think. He's not the issue with these companies. And so they have bred him to behave like this. And then they're shocked that they behave like this. And then they kick him off.

They're bringing him back on. It's sort of like a kid who just constantly mispeat. There's a point where you either cut them off or you just tolerate the badness. And that's going to be a very difficult question for him if he becomes president again, for sure. So I want to end with this. You know, generally conservatives have been the ones

to extol the virtues of capitalism and the free market. yet now, you know, they're the ones losing their minds when, when private companies like Twitter, like YouTube, like Facebook, ban a public official for spreading misinformation or otherwise breaking their terms of service. So there's this sense of being both pro-free market and anti-allowing that free market to enforce its own rules. It's ironic. It's not ironic. It's about hypocrisy. Well, how is that conflict not more obvious? Like, how does this emerge as a valid complaint on the right? Well, it's not valid. It's done for ginning up the bay. It's like an accepted, an accepted complaint.

You act like they're doing it because they think it's true. They don't think it's true. I've had so many discussions with people on that side who go on and on about Facebook is censoring me. And I'm like, come on, there's no, give me the proof. And they're like, oh, there is nothing. Like, they don't. You imagine they care.

They don't. They're using it for political advantage. And you have to separate the politics from policy. And so, first of all, they're never going to win. It's a First Amendment issue. And by the way, First Amendment issue in favor of these companies. Nobody has a right to be unfaic. I don't have a right to go.

going to Walmart if I pee on things, right? You know what I mean? Like, I don't have a, you just don't. You just, like, everywhere you go, you don't have a right. But people seem, I am my First Amendment right. I'm like, well, go around that corner over there and start scream and see how that works out for you. You don't have a right to be on Facebook. And so I think even if they did favor taking down conservatives, which there's no proof they do,

what the problem is, conservatives violate laws more. They're constant, their constant rule breaking on these platforms is the problem. and so not to anyway stereotype people but they do they break the laws Alex Jones broke the laws so did blank blank blank blank blank they goes on and on

they do it on the left but they really do it on the right and they do it on purpose you know kind of which is they do it on purpose just to create a controversy and so I think what's going to be interesting is when it comes to actual policy

there is no judge conservative liberal anyone who will allow people to be forced onto these platforms. It doesn't matter. They can do what they want because they're private companies. People are not just capos and the First Amendment protects these companies from doing what they need to do. They cannot be, unless the Supreme Court designates them a utility. And then it's an old bottle of wax. And Clarence Thomas has talked about that. Like does any of them, utilities? Well, then, okay, maybe they are the public square. But they're not right now. And until they are,

they can, they can stifle it. I don't know what to tell you. They're just going to keep doing it. He's not lying about the insurrection. He's lying about Facebook censoring at him. Kara, thank you so much for coming on. And again, check out Sway and Pivot, two different podcasts. Great talking to you. Thanks a lot, Brian. Thanks again to Kara Swisher. Before I go, I have an update on the fundraiser for the Texas Democrats, which is officially over. In just three weeks, we raised over $204,000 from $6,300 donors. It was the second biggest gift only behind that of Beto O'Rourke. So to everyone who donate, or spread the word, thank you.

You've made a huge difference and allowed these Texas Democrats to focus on what's important, which is blocking the GOP's voter suppression bill. That means that I'll be focusing solely on the Don't Be a Mitch Fund moving forward. So if you want to support nine amazing organizations that focus on voter registration and outreach

in nine key states, the link is in the episode notes. And you can also buy some Don't Be a Mitch merch on my website, Brian Tyler Cohen.com, and 100% of the profits are donated to the fund as well. Okay, that's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie,

interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels.