No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Jaime Harrison takes it to Ted Cruz over "Jim Crow 2.0"

Episode Date: May 16, 2021

Liz Cheney has officially been ousted from Republican leadership and Kevin McCarthy gets caught trying to play both sides of the coin. Brian interviews DNC chair Jaime Harrison about what they’re doing to push back against the spate of voter suppression bills across the country and his response to Ted Cruz calling HR1 “Jim Crow 2.0." And Brian chats with host of Zerlina. on Peacock's The Choice and the head of progressive programming for SiriusXM, Zerlina Maxwell, about rightwing media fostering vaccine hesitancy and whether Cheney’s ouster will push any Republicans out of the party."Don't Be a Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchUn-Fox your cable box: https://unfoxmycablebox.com/Run For Something: https://runforsomething.net/Written by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CAhttps://www.briantylercohen.com/podcast/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Liz Cheney's official ouster from leadership, Kevin McCarthy getting caught trying to play both sides of the coin. My interview with DNC chair Jamie Harrison about what they're doing to push back against the spate of voter suppression bills across the country and his response to Ted Cruz calling HR1 Jim Crow 2.0 and my chat with MSNBC contributor and head of progressive programming for Sirius XM, Zerlina Maxwell, about right-wing media pushing vaccine hesitancy and whether Cheney's ouster will push any Republicans out of the party. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie.

So to steal a quote from Jamie Harrison, who you'll hear from during today's interview, the transformation is complete. Liz Cheney was voted out of her leadership position, now with the support of Kevin McCarthy, the top Republican in the House, and so the entirety of the Republican leadership in the House is now officially on board with perpetuating the big lie that the election was stolen. And look, I know that we talk about this a lot, and it never really went away. But the last thing in the world I intend on doing is, letting us slip through the cracks without calling it out because I promise you, ignoring it will

not make it go away and we are literally living through proof of that as we speak. And by the way, these Republicans, both in the leadership and within the party, they know that what they're doing is wrong. That's what makes it especially depraved because they know they're spewing bullshit. They know they're lying to their supporters. They know they're manipulating them. But they're making the conscious decision that this is their strategy. And don't take my word for it.

Here's Kevin McCarthy immediately after the insurrection on January 6th. That doesn't mean the president is free from fault. The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. These facts require immediate action by President Trump. Accept his share of responsibility, quell the brewing unrest, and ensure President-elect Biden is able to be able to, to successfully begin his term.

That was because McCarthy's calculation was that Trump was a liability and so it would be politically inconvenient to back him. But once McCarthy realized that, in fact, Trump wasn't going away, that he was still going to play Kingmaker within the GOP, because McCarthy stands for exactly nothing and is the government's biggest opportunist, suddenly here's what his statements evolved into this week. Well, first of all, the conference will decide, but I don't think anybody is questioning the legitimacy of the presidential election. I think that is all over with.

We're sitting here with the president today. So from that point of view, I don't think that's a problem. I don't think anybody's questioning the legitimacy of the election. Okay, so I've adopted a rule that I don't share Trump's statements or press releases or blog posts or whatever he's calling them anymore. But just to show you what a shameless liar of Kevin McCarthy is, this past Monday, Trump called it, quote, the greatest election fraud in the history of our country.

On Thursday, he called it corrupt third world election. On Friday, he said, quote, the presidential election of 2020 will go down as the crime of the century. That was just this week. The same week that McCarthy tried to absolve himself by claiming no one's questioning the legitimacy of the election, when the guy literally responsible for launching this debunked claim is still questioning it.

Basically, Republicans are trying to have their cake and eat it too. You've got people like Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell, right, who are on record saying stuff. like Trump bears responsibility for what happened on January 6, Joe Biden won the election. This way, the donors and moderate Republicans out there feel like there's some moderation, some measured response that'll quell the unease, right? And at the same time, you've got McConnell literally refusing to vote to convict Trump for doing exactly what he was accused of and Kevin McCarthy supporting Liz Cheney being ejected

from leadership for the crime of telling the truth about the very thing that McCarthy himself pretended to stand for just five minutes ago. So they get to pander to both the moderates and the far-right lunatics while speaking out to both sides of their mouth and hoping that no one notices. McCarthy's position changed here, not because the facts changed, because they didn't, but because the GOP has made the tactical decision that in order to drum up support so that he doesn't look like a loser, in order to give a pretext to Republican state legislatures who want to pass voter suppression laws across the U.S.,

in order to sell themselves as the victims of some non-existent. fraud scandal that this is the story they need to sell, right? Forget that it's fake, forget that it's been thoroughly debunked, forget they didn't win a single court case that would lend itself to this idea, forget that Bill Barr's own Department of Justice refuted it, that the Department of Homeland Security refuted it, that Republican governors and secretaries of state refuted it, that the news networks who cried rigged machines retracted it, none of that matters because this is a coordinated disinformation campaign meant to trick people, meant to trick people into believing a lie because that lie lends itself to their broader

goal of cheating to consolidate power. So look, the fact is that with or without Liz Cheney in leadership, the trajectory of the GOP is already beyond clear, right? This isn't a party interested in legislating or following any, like, governing philosophies that are interested in power. The bills that are introducing in state legislatures across the country are to limit your right to vote. That's it.

That's what the party stands for. Here's a guy named Paul Weirich. He's the father of the right-wing movement, co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, the moral majority. Here he is in 1980. I want you to listen to this, and let me know if anything sounds even remotely familiar.

How many of our Christians have what I call the goo-goo syndrome, good government. They want everybody to vote. I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people. They never have been from the beginning of. of our country, and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace

goes down. This has always been their sole objective. Republican officials don't believe the big lie, but they'll sure as hell latch onto it if it means they can exploit it to serve as a pretext to stop people from voting. That's what it all comes down to. The big lie is just the latest vehicle for conservatives to be able to continue the same depraved voting practices that they've employed for over 100 years. New packaging, but same product.

But what makes this most frustrating is that we have the tools to fix this. Now, it won't be the Republicans who fix it because, you know, they created this problem. They're the ones who benefit by its continued presence. But by refusing to budge on the filibuster, Joe Manchin and Kirstenna are also entrenching this problem. They're doing the work of people like Paul Weirich who are well aware of the benefits of voting restrictions for Republicans. So with that said, I'm going to plug my project here because if anything shows us the need to expand our majority, it's the fact that we still have Democratic senators who aren't falling over themselves

to protect the foundation of our democracy, our right to vote. So I'm running my Don't Be a Mitch Fund to raise money for eight voter registration and outreach organizations in the eight states with the closest Senate races in 2022 to make sure that Mitch McConnell

never again become Senate majority leader. The states I'm focusing on our Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Florida, Ohio, and Iowa. The organizations I've partnered with are amazing groups, most of which focus on outreach to black and young

voters, the same people who Republicans try most frequently to disenfranchise. And the point of this fund is to recreate the strategy that Stacey Abrams used to win Georgia, but it takes time and it takes money. We can't just start throwing millions of bucks into packs in October of an election year. We have to start now. So you'll never hear me ask for money, but in this instance, if you have a few bucks, please check out the link to the act blue page in the episode notes, or go to my website, Brian Tyler Cohen.com, and click on Don't Be a Mitch to donate.

A lot of you donated last week, and I so, so appreciate that. So let's keep it going. Okay, next step is my interview with DNC chair, Jamie Harrison. Okay, today we have the chairman of the DNC, Jamie Harrison. Thanks for coming back on. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, last time we spoke, there were rumblings that you'd end up here. So congratulations on the roll.

Well, thank you. Thank you. It's going well. I'm still smiling. So I want to start with the most important topic here. that is the spate of voter suppression bills sprouting up across the country. Now, I know that you're limited in terms of what you can do at the DNC, but what steps are being taken?

Like, what can you do within the confines of your role with your organization? Well, listen, you know, what we are seeing from the Republicans right now to suppress the voter, not just concerning. They're threatening our fundamental right as Americans. And, you know, my message to them, my message to the American people is that we can, can't go back. You know, I often talk about my grandparents and the important role that they played in my life. But, you know, when I was growing up, they would often share with me some of the hardships of growing up in a Jim Crow society where they were seen and they felt like second-class citizens

from not being able to drink from certain water fountains or not being able to sit where they wanted to in public places like theaters to the fact that they could not always vote in the state. And so when I think back to that and I think back to the progress that we have made as a nation, why would we ever want to go back to that? And that's my question to the Republican Party. Listen, I understand elections, you know, parties want to win elections. Yeah, that's all great and fine. But at the end of the day, we're Americans. And our most safe, Right as Americans is our right to vote. Why would we do anything to take away that right from any American citizen? I don't know. I don't understand. But I want them to understand this. We are going to do everything in our power to make sure that we don't go back. I'm not going to have my sons live the lives that their grandparents, great-grandparents live. We're not going to do it. And so we're going to fight from the state house to the courthouses to the houses, to the houses. of Congress, we're going to do everything that we possibly can to make sure that these things

don't stand. That really underscores the need for HR1. But we've just gotten news that Joe Manchin doesn't support HR1, although he did say that he would consider the Voting Rights Act, which you know, at the end of the day probably doesn't even matter because Manchin also doesn't support filibuster reform and we're not getting 10 Republicans to pass either HR1 or the Voting Rights Act. So if these bills don't get passed or if they don't get passed right now, what are the next steps? Well, you know, I've been in contact with members of the U.S. Senate, Democratic members of the U.S. Senate, and I told them, and I have told them multiple times, and I'll tell them again, the importance of passing some form of voting rights legislation this year.

Senator Schumer has said that he will take this up by August, and I've offered to them any assistance that we possibly can from the D&C to make sure that we get. this legislation through because it's important. It's personal for many, many folks. And so it's great to hear that Senator Mansion is in support of the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, which would, in essence, put teeth back into the Voting Rights Act, and particularly into the portion of the Voting Rights Act that covers jurisdictions and new voting laws in those jurisdictions and allowing the preclearance, allowing the Justice Department to sign off on those changes in laws to make sure that they are not discriminatory against any class of folks or

a group of individuals. And so that's great. But there are a lot of parts of HR1 that are so crucial and so important from allowing people to register to vote early, to taking dart money out of politics, to stopping the, what I believe is the cancer to our democracy, which is political gerrymandering and turning and stopping politicians from choosing their voters and giving that power back to the people. There are a lot of good aspects of that legislation. And so I think it needs to be brought up and needs to be debated. It needs to be discussed. And the American people need to see the people who are standing in the midst, in the door, mind you, to say that these things should not pass. Because I can guarantee you, there are a lot, there would be

a lot of upset Americans when they see that their leaders are trying to allow billionaires to buy elections or one to maintain the power of politicians to choose those who vote for them. I mean, building on that, I've been sounding the alarm for months and months that if we don't past HR1, nothing else is going to matter because Republicans are going to legislate Democrats at the government. You know, the gerrymander to go back to the number one thing that you were just referring to right there. They'll restrict early voting. They'll restrict drop boxes and Democratic strongholds, which really right now in the immediate future makes keeping the House especially important but especially difficult. So does the DNC have any specific plans to

help candidates, House candidates in particular? Well, you know, the DNC has just made it several announcements. One, we're working very closely, hand in glove with the heads of the DGA, the DCC, and the DSEC. I hope to begin having conversations with the DLCC, our Democratic mayors, the DMO, which are municipal officials, so that we can also work in coordination and in conjunction with them as well. So I have told Sean Patrick Wiloney, the head of the DCCC, that we're going to do everything that we can to make sure that the Democrats keep the House of Representatives. I've told Gary Peters, the Senator from Michigan, that the DNC is going to do everything that we can to not only maintain our majority, but to grow our majority in the United States Senate. It's so important to move the agenda of the

Biden-Harris administration forward to keep both chambers of Congress. And we want to make sure that we can flip some state houses, add some governors. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Part of the effort that we are making at the DNC of a few weeks ago, I announced a historic investment in our midterm elections. We're going to spend $20 million this year on boots on the ground, organizes in certain battleground states into voter protection staff on the ground right now to make sure that our staff are equipped to protect the rights of voters. In addition, we're going to work on putting communication staff on the ground as well. And we're doing this a lot earlier than we have ever done before. And so I'm proud of those

investments. You know, we're facing down history. History says that the party in power loses seats in the House and the Senate. But I believe that if we take unprecedented action to build an organizing operation second to none, then we can make our own history. I mean, it really does show the importance of focusing now on voter outreach, voter registration. You know, we obviously saw the payoff of exactly that in a state like Georgia. And, you know, Republicans saw the benefit of this decades ago and look how it's paid off for them. So, you know, we have a lot of ground to cover here. But obviously, really good news that you folks at the DNC and just the party more broadly is understanding the absolute importance of doing this now

and not just waiting five minutes before an election to just throw some money at Pax and think that, you know, we got this, you know? That's exactly right. All right. And Brian, I can tell you, I'm tired of hearing folks saying, why does a Democratic Party wait until, you know, four weeks before an election to come and visit my X, Y, and Z, or to knock on my door? We've heard you.

And we're going to do better. And we're going to start now. By the way, there's people, you know, living that. You have, obviously, Stacey Abrams. built her career doing that now. And we've got people like Beto O'Rourke down in Texas doing that. And so, you know, hopefully we'll start to see those payoffs. We obviously saw it in Georgia, but we'll continue to see those payoffs around the country. Building on this issue of HR1, the other day, Ted Cruz had claimed that HR1 or S1, the For the People Act, was Jim Crow 2.0.

I wanted to get your response to that. Ted Cruz is an idiot. You know, that's a slap in the face to my grandma. to my grandfather, to the people who had dogs sicked on them because they just were trying to get their rights to vote in this nation and in this country. So if he doesn't know the history, then we need to teach him that history. He needs to go and sit and talk with folks like Jim Clyburn, who was locked up. I wish he could still talk with my friend and my mentor, John Lewis. He should have gone on that pilgrimage with John Lewis so he could hear the stories about how young men and young women put their lives on the line in order to make sure that folks had the right to vote who went up against Jim Crow.

So to say stuff like that is reckless, idiotic, and it is unbecoming of somebody who is in the United States Senate. And so, again, listen, this is the guy who represents Cancun, Mexico, and he doesn't represent the state of Texas, because if he does. did, he would have been there with his people protecting them when their water was shut down, when they were under deep freeze. But yet he was trying to get some margarita or something down in Mexico. So I don't give much credence to whatever Ted Cruz says because he, you know, they love to talk about people on the government dime. Well, look no further

than Ted Cruz because he doesn't do anything for Texas. But I bet he cashes his paycheck check every two weeks. Yep, professional tweeter, Ted Cruz. I want to switch gears a little bit here and talk about Liz Cheney. She was just ousted from her leadership position for committing the cardinal sin of acknowledging objective reality that the election wasn't stolen and that Trump bears responsibility for the January 6th insurrection. So for once, you know, it's not Dems and Disarray.

It's Republicans in disarray. I never thought I'd see the day. We're seeing this continued lunge to the far right here. Now, do Republicans alienate any voters by doing this? Because keep in mind, Trump mismanaged the pandemic that led to 600,000 deaths, the third biggest mass casualty events in American history. He left office, having lost millions of jobs, he was an international embarrassment and still didn't really lose that many voters from 2016 to 2020.

He still had high support within the Republican Party. And that was with some pretty historically terrible achievements. So when we see this lunge to the far right, that was responsible for pushing Liz Cheney out. Is that going to lose the Republican Party, any voters? How do you see this playing out? Well, I think, you know, what we're seeing are the last breaths of a great party in many aspects. You know, I've never been a Republican, never wanted to be a Republican.

But nonetheless, I mean, we've seen this be a vibrant party over the decades and years. and I think those days are long gone. You now have, you know, feckless leaders, spineless leaders like Kevin McCarthy, a man who went to the floor shortly after the insurrection that was sparked by Donald Trump in the rally, who said that it was Donald Trump who own blame for the insurrection.

But now he's repeating the big lie. Oh, no, it wasn't Donald Trump at all. I don't know who that masked man that was on the floor who actually said that Donald Trump was responsible for. Well, it was you, Kevin McCarthy, the biggest flip-flopper in the House of Representatives, who only cares about power, loves to play with Mr. Potato Head dolls and read Dr. Seuss,

but not do any damn thing for the people that he represent. The American people are getting tired of that. I think there's some Republicans that are getting tired of that. I think just recently a group of Republicans wrote that they're thinking about forging a new party because they don't like the transformations that they have seen in the Republican Party. And you can't blame them. I mean, it's past a dumpster fire. It's an infernal right now. And it's sad to see at this juncture that the party of Lincoln is now the party of Trump. The transformation, as in they say in Star Wars, is now complete.

Yeah. Okay. So I want to switch gears and speak about. Texas. They had a special election recently. So Texas is six congressional district. That was a district that Mitt Romney won by 17 points in 2012. Trump won it by 12 points in 2016 and then only three points in 2020. So it's trending bluer every cycle. And yet in this latest special, the top two vote-gaters in the special election were both Republicans with 19% and 14% with the top Democrat only getting 13%. Even among all Democrats, I think that we only had about 37% of the vote chair. It didn't seem like that race got much of any national attention or support from any national democratic groups. Why is that? You know, we're still looking into that.

And part of what we want to do, Brian, is, and this is why we just announced yesterday a 57 states and territory strategy. I want to make sure that every one of our state parties, regardless of they're in a red state or a blue state, has the resources in order to assist. campaigns in their particular jurisdictions. It's really, really important. We saw that when we had this strategy, when Howard Dean first enacted back in 2006, we were able to win seats in some of the red estates in this nation. And we can do that once again, but we got to make sure that our state parties have the resources to compete. And so in addition to the announcement of the SPP program, the state party partnership program.

We also announced a red state initiative, a program where there's a certain pot of money that is set aside for red states. We know that it's going to take a little more energy, a little more effort for them to be able to compete, to have the organization on the ground. And so I want to make sure going forward that we are able to compete everywhere, that we aren't seating any territory or any ground, to the Republican Party. But the first step to doing that is to make sure that our state parties have the resources so that they can go and build the operations, recruit the top talent that they need, and then support them as they vie against the Republicans.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I've heard Beto O'Rourke say on multiple occasions that a lot of these states that we consider red states aren't red states, they're non-voting states. And so that's exactly right. You know, harkening back to, you know, the infusion of cash that you have with the $20 million fund, as well as this strategy here, hopefully we'll turn a lot of these eventual, hopeful, potential Democrats into voters here. So with that said, Jamie, thank you so much for taking the time to speak. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Brian. It's good seeing you.

Thanks again to Jamie Harrison. Now we've got the host of Peacock's Progressive News Show, Zerlina, the head of progressive programming for Sirius XM, and MSNBC contributors, Erlina Maxwell. Thanks for taking some time to chat. so much for having me. So I've been trying to, like, explore a little bit the link between vaccine hesitancy and right-wing media. And I can't really put my finger on why right-wing media would want to traffic in this other than just contrarianism, like Dems say it's good, so Republicans say it's bad. Or maybe they're trying to slow the rate of progress because reaching herd immunity will reflect well on Democrats, which is so horrific and depraved,

but at the same time, you know, what's new? What are your thoughts on this? It's very unfortunate. I'm in a very unique position. I'm not just a progressive, you know, media figure. I am the daughter of a biologist who has studied vaccines. So for me, one of the funniest things about this lockdown experience for me was that my dad called me freaking out, I think, a week and a half before New York lockdown. It might have been the day California lockdown. And it was like, you need to leave New York right now. He's like yelling. He's cursing. He doesn't curse. And he's like, you need to leave. to leave right now. This is going to get really bad. If you have to go, you have to get out. But I think one of the things I realized when I got here was that my political analysis was like not needed in this moment, right? I was like, oh, I can just go over here. I'm probably not going to get called in for many segments. My analysis is not really necessary right now. Because I do politics. I do communications. I do media. My dad is the scientists. And we sort have to defer to that. And I just think that there's an unwillingness in the conservative movement

right now to defer to anything, but, you know, definitely not scientists. So it's an unfortunate thing, but it's been since the beginning of the pandemic and maybe even predated it a bit because I think there was always sort of an anti-fax, anti-pharmaceutical company, anti-science, you know, section of the conservative movement like that overlaps with other elements as well well see i almost understand it for climate change because it's not exactly tangible it's not like we're going outside and our skin is melting off or anything like that like it's something that we hear about and yes we'll see elements of it we'll see extreme weather events and stuff like that but it's not super tangible but at the end of the day this is their own lives being put at risk like there are

people dying by the hundreds of thousands so you can have this anti-science bent but but doesn't doesn't your own survival like isn't that more important than than like holding on to you know what I mean I probably do this rant once a day yeah I was gonna say I guess I'm preaching the choir here like you're trying to survive you're doing what's necessary to do it you know also I think I think it's funny there are some ways where it's kind of come back to benefit everybody I think We've just had some Republicans who are now wearing masks to protect themselves from what they've been told is vaccine that's shedding from vaccinated people. And so they don't want, you know, because they don't want any, any semblance of the vaccine to touch them. Now they're protecting themselves from the apparent shedding vaccine by by masking up.

That is insane. Have you heard that? I had not heard that one. I mean, the microchipping one I've heard. Yeah. I think it's really funny that anybody, anybody who has Instagram is concerned about somebody tracking them. Or a cell phone.

Exactly. So that I think is, you know, kind of an amusing one. But no, I haven't heard the shedding of the virus. I'm like, that doesn't even make sense. I don't think the making sense has been a barrier thus far. I want to move on to this whole issue of Liz Cheney's ouster and its implications for the Republican Party moving forward. So clearly, Republicans are trying to rewrite history. We were all alive during January 6, right? It's not like they're banking on us for getting the Korean War. Like, this was

literally four months ago. And so it seems ridiculous to try to, to try to pretend that the events of January 6 didn't happen. At what point is it caused for alarm? Because we're about to have a full GOP leadership pushing the big lie. They've already shot a warning shot to other Republicans who push back against the big lie by ousting Liz Cheney. Trump is still pushing it, right? When media is still pushing it. Most Republican voters believe it. Is it possible they could be successful in this revisionist history campaign? Well, I think it's up to those of us who care about our democracy not to allow them to get away with trying to rewrite that history. And I think it is an emergency. It's important that we push back every time they try to tell a different story

than the one that we all watch on live television. I mean, I remember the day it happened. And, you know, I think we were probably planning on doing some pre-recorded interview. I forget even what it was about. Like, I don't even remember who it was or what it was about. But I remember as we, as I was sort of getting ready, I was looking at the TV over my head, like, something's happening. I'm looking at my Twitter feed. It was clear. I was like, we need to cancel whatever we were going to do because this, what's happening is American history unfolding for our eyes.

I think we were watching an insurrection. Like, well, I've never seen that. I've seen it in other countries. So it was clear the day it happened that we were living through something unprecedented and important. And it is just as important today to tell the truth. Yeah. You know, I think it's a clear and present danger.

I think that was the phrasing that Kurt Bardella, a colonist for MSNBC Daly and also USA Today, I think that's the phrasing that he used. And I think that it's accurate. We know that it's dangerous. for them to tell this lie, for them to attempt to tell this lie, for them to kick anyone out of the party leadership who is unwilling to tell the lie, because that's why she's kicked out. It's not that, you know, there's a policy difference or something. She's not willing to lie and they're kicking her out. So I think the rest of us, we know that the threat of violence is real because it's already happened. It'd be different if, like, the insurrection hadn't happened. And we're like, this rhetoric seems dangerous. This could get somebody killed. People are already dead as the result of the Republican's unwillingness to accept the election results,

even though every single House Republican, every single one, had an election in 2020 and accepted the results in their individual elections because they otherwise, they wouldn't be in the House. And so they all got sworn in again as members of Congress or new. newly elected members of Congress in an election that they are claiming was a big fraud. And so I just want to ask every single one of those Republican House members, how does that work? How does that work? It doesn't make sense to me. I think their attempt to rewrite the history, you know, that's not surprising in the least because what happened is a stain forever on their party, their legacy, the fact that the people who cheered and fist pumped those insertion,

and then voted to overturn the free and fair election after when the, you know, smoke was literally still in the air. Those people were not kicked out of the party, but Liz Cheney is. It's testament to the state of the GOP right now, but it's also a bigger story about the state and health of our democracy as a whole because it requires at least two political parties that are functioning, you know, from a foundation of truth. In fact, in good faith. There are some, quote-unquote, Liz Cheney Republicans out there. And so do you think that there's a possibility that by virtue of going off this cliff that we're seeing right now, that the Republican Party can actually lose some people moving forward? And I say that with the

caveat of Democrats are always in this trap where we're like, oh, well, this is definitely too far for all those moderate Republicans out there. And then we, you know, you look at Trump's approval rating when he was president. And he basically had full approval from the GOP. And so I might sound naive, like I just woke up from a coma right now by virtue of saying this, but do you think that there are some Republicans out there who are part of this Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney faction where, okay, we clearly saw that there was danger from the big lie from this rhetoric from January 6th.

And so this is finally one step too far. I do. Donald Trump's approval ratings among Republicans were always high because the share of Republicans to the overall electorate has been shrinking ever since he became the de facto leader of an end leader of the Republican Party with fewer and fewer people identifying as Republicans like sure it's going to be like 80 percent but the number of total of those people is smaller and smaller and smaller of people who are actually even identifying as Republicans I mean just the fact that people you know post insurrection are changing party affiliations, calling up their election board and say, I want to change my registration to independent because I can't be a Republican any longer. I mean, that's a real phenomenon. I mean, yesterday when I was thinking about just the ramifications, I was really thinking it through the ramifications of all this and sort of bigger picture. But then I also sort of landed back at the point where I do see, you know, a constituent.

for a Liz Cheney after Trump. And when I say after Trump, I mean, I mean, it already is after Trump, technically. But also, like, he has looming legal issues. So the idea that he's going to be some force in 2024, it operates off of the assumption that he is not going to have other things to be worried about. Yeah. And that he's going to be able to run for president again. And so with him out of the way, I mean, who's the constituency?

like I can see a constituency for a for Liz Cheney more so than I can for a Josh Holly or Ted Cruz anything could happen I mean we were just what sitting around the other day and it was like Rudy Giuliani's house is getting rated by the FBI we didn't anticipate that happening yeah who knows what's going to happen you know I do tend to take a little bit more of a cynical approach to it but it will be interesting to see how this you know continues to play out and especially with that with Trump's pending legal issues and kind of the future of that party. So, Jolina, what's the best way for people who listen to this podcast to find you?

So I have two shows that air every single day. So if you're a radio person and you have Sirius XM, you can listen to my show every morning from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. Eastern on Channel 127, the Progress Channel. And I also have a show at night on Peacock, the new streaming service from End. NBC. That's at 6 p.m. Eastern. And we also have a YouTube live stream for our show as well. And then I'm on social at Zena Maxwell on everything. And it's been a pleasure talking to you. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks again to Zerlina. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week.

You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera. and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe in your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels.