No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Jeff Daniels with a message for undecideds. And the passing of RBG.

Episode Date: September 20, 2020

Ruth Bader Ginsburg has tragically died as the future of the Supreme Court becomes a top campaign issue. Brian interviews Jeff Daniels and writer/director Billy Ray from the new series The Comey Rule, airing September 27 and 28 on Showtime. Go to votesave.us/btc to register to vote or to verify your registration.Written by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CAhttps://www.briantylercohen.com/podcast/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Ruth Bader Ginsburg's tragic death and what it means for the future of the Supreme Court and my interview with both the star of the new series of the Comey Rule, Jeff Daniels, and the writer-director of Billy Ray. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So, not going to lie, this is an episode that I did not want to have to make. On Friday evening, we lost Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She led the legal fight for women's rights in the 70s. She's essentially the reason that the 14th Amendment's equal protections guarantee. included equality of the sexes. She served 27 years in the Supreme Court, where she was its most prominent member. She was five foot one, but she was a giant. And now we're put in the awful position of not only mourning her death, but doing so under the threat of Donald Trump nominating her successor to the court. And to the surprise of exactly no one, Trump has already vowed to put forward a nominee,

and McConnell has already vowed to bring up that nominee for a vote in the Senate. And just so we're clear, yes, that is the same Mitch McConnell who said this in 2016. Ms. President, the next justice could fundamentally alter the direction of the Supreme Court and have a profound impact on our country. So, of course, of course, the American people should have a say in the court's direction. It is a president's constitutional right to nominate a Supreme Court justice, and it is a president's constitutional right to nominate a Supreme Court justice, and it is the Senate's constitutional right to act as a check on a president and withhold its consent. As Chairman Grassley and I declared weeks ago and reiterated personally to President Obama,

the Senate will continue to observe the Biden rule so that the American people have a voice in this momentous decision. The American people may well elect a president who decides to nominate Judge Garland, for Senate consideration. The next president may also nominate somebody very different. Either way, our view is this. Give the people a voice in filling this vacancy. Now, for the sake of my own sanity, I'm not going to sit here and try and call out McConnell's hypocrisy

because his moral bankruptcy is beyond well-known. So I'll save my breath because he's not worth it. But there is some hope of putting pressure on other Republican senators, because I don't believe this is a fight they want. This is a fight that galvanizes Democrats. The Supreme Court will decide cases on health care, on abortion, on immigration. These are all winning issues for Democrats. These are all issues where Democrats pull well in with the vast majority of Americans.

You think vulnerable Republican senators want to be the reason that the ACA is gutted after what happened in the midterms? I wouldn't want to be put in that position with an election coming up in six weeks. And there are a lot of people in that position. With Tom Tillis fighting for his political life, with Joni Ernst, with Corey Gardner, with Kelly Loeffler, with Lindsey Graham, dealing with another vicious Supreme Court fight is only going to mobilize the exact voters that we need to win. You think people in the suburbs are going to sit idly by

while Trump solidifies an anti-choice court for a generation? They're going to vote. And they're going to vote to do so with the Supreme Court top of my. mind. So let's listen to what some senators have said about the very specific issue of voting on Supreme Court nominees in election years. Here's Lindsay Graham. Judge Stice Scalia dies in 2016. The primary process is ongoing. And if you look back in 100 years, nobody has been replaced under that circumstance. If you listen to what Joe Biden said in Bush 41, you should hold it over to the next election. Joe is right a lot.

So I felt like I was doing the traditional thing there when it came to Sotomayor and Kagan. I thought I did the traditional thing. Now, I'll tell you this. This may make you feel better, but I really don't care. If an opening comes in the last year of President Trump's term and the primary process is started, we'll wait to the next election. and I've got a pretty good chance of being the judiciary. You're on the record. Yeah.

All right. Hold the take. Here's Tom Tillis. Now, I will tell you that I'm also a member of the Judiciary Committee. Y'all may have heard that we have a Supreme Court nomination opening. I happen to be one of the senators who signed on to the letter to tell this president that we're not going to nominate a Supreme Court justice until the people have spoken. Now, just today, I was on the Senate floor, and I had to tell this president. Senator Schumer and Senator Leahy talking about how we're not doing our job.

We're absolutely doing our job there. We're talking about how we have a constitutional obligation to advise and consent. I said, we've done that. What do you mean? I said, we've advised the president that we're not going to consent to one of his nominees. We're going to let the American people speak. Here's Marco Rubio. We have an obligation to do it, but not now.

The term of the Supreme Court has already, they just started it, so, but it's not all year long. the court can function with aid justices. It does it all the time, especially when justices have to recuse themselves. For example, Kagan had to recuse herself early in her term because she had just left the administration. We're going to have an election in November where this vacancy is going to be an item of debate and voters are going to get to weigh in. So I just don't think it's wise, and there's precedent for this, for a president, nearing the last few months of his administration, to put someone on the court that may be there for 30 years. Here's Chuck Grassley. The people deserve to be heard. And they should be allowed to do. decide through their vote for the next president, the type of person that should be on the

Supreme Court. So, I think I've made my point, right? Like, if you're looking for reasons that these senators should not move forward on election year appointments, they've already made those cases themselves. Now, here's where we're at so far, as of this recording, which is Saturday, September 19th. The Senate is 5347 Republicans favor. That means we need four defections to account for a Pence tiebreaker. Susan Collins has released a statement saying,

I do not believe that the Senate should vote on the nominee prior to the election. In fairness to the American people, the decision on a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court should be made by the president who was elected on November 3rd. And yes, it's Susan Collins. Take it with a grain of salt, but it's a good start. Lisa Murkowski made a statement on Friday, but oddly enough, it was before RGB's passing,

and she signaled that the intent was to allow whoever won the election to decide. So that makes two. We still haven't heard from Mitt Romney, although I'd actually expect him to do the right thing, maybe naively, but I would. And we're still waiting to hear from Chuck Grassley, although he's clearly on record stating that Supreme Court picks shouldn't be acted on in an election year.

And then there's the Arizona race. Now, Martha McSally is facing off against Democrat Mark Kelly, and that race is actually a special election. McSally was appointed to the seat after John McCain died, and so legally, election law states that the winner has to be seated by the end of November, not in January with the rest of the senators. So if and when Trump puts forward a nominee, depending on how long it takes,

a Mar Kelly victory could narrow the Senate from 5347 to 52-48, meaning we'd only need three defections. I honestly don't believe it'll take that long for Trump to put forward a nominee, but in the event that there's a lame duck appointment, we could possibly have one more vote. Now, with all of that said, all the numbers and statements, whatever, I have to say this. I am not about to be so naive to place my trust in the republicans.

Senate. Even if it's political suicide for them, if I've learned anything over the last four years, it's that Republican senators will not do the right thing. They're not moved by any sense of integrity or morality or conscience and definitely not shame. So while I think, you know, hitting them with a relentless barrage of their own words, proving their hypocrisy on a daily basis is absolutely necessary. We need to do more. We need to make it a abundantly clear that we can and we should expand the courts. And right off the bat, the right's going to say that Democrats are undermining the Constitution, breaking the law, no, no.

Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say that the Supreme Court has nine seats. That power was left to Congress. And in fact, the number of justices has changed seven times. The Supreme Court's had anywhere from six to ten justices. Nine is arbitrary. We keep it because it's a norm. So Republicans should spare us the sanctimony for breaking a law. norm while they are literally in the process of breaking norms.

So if they want to subvert the will of the people, a rule that they themselves coined, then we need to expand the court, period. Still unsure? Ask yourself if Mitch McConnell would do the same if the roles were reversed. That's your answer. The fact is that it's not going to be Democrats who are going to be to blame when four new justices are added. This isn't unprompted, right? It's not out of the blue.

We didn't want this. This is only in direct response to the rights subversion of our democracy. to a Republican Party that effectively will not perform their constitutional duty to allow Democratic presidents, Supreme Court nominees, but allow it for Republicans. That's not how democracy works. So when Republicans like Lindsey Graham inevitably feign outrage and shriek about, you know, far-left anarchists undermining our government, just remember that this is because they broke their own rule.

So we need to be clear about this so that they're not surprised when it happens, right? so that they can't pretend that expanding the courts was anything other than a response to their own actions. And the fact is, why not? Like, I'm sorry, but I'm tired of being shamed into showing restraint and taking a high road even when Republicans are sending fire

to this country's institutions. And it's only because they know that those on the left will respond to shame. And they're right. But there's only so many times that we can fall for this act. And that limit's been reached, multiple times over.

By the way, there's this idea, about expanding the courts, that this would be a politically risky move. You know what's risky? Not doing it. You want to know how the American people feel about the Supreme Court? The night that RBG died on Act Blue, the donation processing platform, Democratic donors gave more money online in the 9 p.m. hour after she died, $6.2 million than in any other single hour since Act Blue launched.

Donors broke the record again in the 10 p.m. hour, giving another 6.3 million, which is more than $100,000 a minute. In the first 20 hours after Ginsburg's death, Act Blue processed more than $62 million. What would be politically risky is ignoring an issue that people care about that will actually drive people to the polls, and that's the Supreme Court. You know what's politically risky?

Not protecting a Supreme Court that would gut the ACA. The case is in front of the court the week after the election. If a Trump-nominated justice is confirmed and we have a 6-3 court, forget it, a death now for Obamacare. and protecting the ACA won Democrats 41 seats in midterms. We won the House

by the biggest margin in American history that's not risky, that's a mandate. You know what's politically risky? Not fighting like hell at the prospect of a 6th century conservative court that will stop at nothing

to overturn Roe v. Wade. 70% of Americans do not want Roe overturned. 70%. Democrats need to not only not be scared to fight, but to fight for something that the vast, vast majority of this country believes in.

We need to stop taking our marching orders based on on right-wing talking points. Of course, Fox News is going to say that expanding the courts is some far-left plot to destroy the government, but that's only because they are actively destroying the government on the right. It's happening in real time. It is a clinic in projection. Really early in the primary, Pete Buttigieg had a great line, and I'm paraphrasing, but it's that no matter what we do, they're going to call us socialist, so we might as well do what's right. If ever there was a time to not capitulate to the geopolitics, and we're and let them dictate the terms of the conversation, this is it.

So the point here is that we're not powerless. There is a remedy. If we take back power in January, then this is something we need to do. Republican presidents have won the popular vote one time in the last seven elections. One time, the Republican majority in the Senate represents 10 million less Americans than Democratic senators do. We are living under minority rule. And it may not feel like that because Fox News has a lot of view.

and that map is red, but 4 million people watching Tucker Carlson is not 130 million American voters. And a red map by county does not show where people live, it shows land. The people in power right now don't represent this country. They represent themselves and their own interests. And the first step to fixing that is acknowledging it. So, look, I know it's easy to feel despair, but we don't have the luxury of wasting time. We don't even have any time to waste on mourning RGB because now we have to deal with this.

So our only job now is to fight. We have 40-something days until the election. Honor RGB's memory by fighting as hard now as she did throughout her career. Fight as hard as she did to survive through bouts of cancer so that Trump couldn't replace her. That's our job right now. That's the least we can do. And the truth is that we have a lot to fight for. Fight to end the filibuster so we can pass legislation to save this planet.

to codify our rights to vote, to expand health coverage, to protect a woman's right, to choose what she does with her body. We're fighting to expand the court so that when those very items are litigated, they'll be upheld. We're fighting for statehood for D.C. and Puerto Rico so that everyone in this country is represented, not just white people in rural states. And more immediately, we're fighting for relief from a pandemic that's already taken 200,000 Americans, and that the Republican Party is hellbent on pretending doesn't exist. whatever your issue is, fight for that.

So put pressure on your senators. Donate to Democratic candidates and be in charge of the people in your circle. Make sure your kids and parents and grandparents and cousins and friends are registered to vote. Go tovotesafeamerica.com slash register. I'll put that link in the post description if you're watching on YouTube or Facebook.

I'll put it in the episode notes if you're listening on the podcast. That is your job. And even if you're registered, verify that registration. You can do it on the same website. Republicans will kick you off the roles if they can. So don't leave the organizing to the organizers. It's up to you.

What happens in the next six weeks will impact this country for a generation. If you have kids or grandkids, this is the world they'll grow up in. If you're a parent or a grandparent, this is going to shape the world for the rest of your lives. So when you look back at this moment right here, when you ask yourself if you did everything you could, make sure that the answer is yes. Next up is my interview with Jeff Daniels, who stars as James Comey in the upcoming showtime series, The Comey Rule, and writer-director Billy Ray. And I think there's a good parallel here between Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a woman who devoted her entire life to work as a civil servant, and James Comey, another public servant, however flawed he may be, and how Trump would come to define his career. All right. We got a really fun one today from the newsroom to kill a mockingbird on Broadway, Dumb and Dumber, and now playing James Comey in the Comey Rule. We've got Jeff Daniels and the writer

for some huge movies, Hunger Games, Captain Phillips, Richard Jewell, and now the writer and director of the Comey Rule, we've got Billy Ray. Thank you both for coming on. Thanks for having us. And congratulations on the series, by the way. I had a chance to watch. I was glued to the screen. What a monumental success this turned out to be. Thank you. So right off the bat, let's talk about James Comey. You know, in a political environment where everyone is hated by half the country, you managed to find the one guy who everybody hates.

So why did you guys decide to jump on this landmine? I had been wanting to say something about the Trump presidency and our democracy more broadly ever since the moment he was elected. And then I got a call from a producer named Shane Salern. saying, would you like to adapt the Comey book? This was the night before it had been published. I said, send it to me right now and I read it overnight and I said, and I realized, oh, this is the way in. This is the way to talk about the Trump administration through the eyes of a public servant and a chance to talk about how heartbreaking it can be to be a public servant. And then the only

trick was writing the script and getting a great actor to play him. And luckily, both those things happened. So did your feelings about Comey, and this is for both of you, I guess, change after being involved in this series? I learned a lot about him. Billy and I went into this going, let's show him how he thinks. And because that was kind of in October 2016 when he reopened the investigation,

there were many people, me included probably. I just don't remember going, what is he thinking? What is he? Well, this film shows you what he was thinking and what he was up against and the struggle between a rock and a hard place that Jim Comey found himself.

in constantly. I had no idea about that. I had no idea that that that he was in a way forced to do it this way. Always though, the North Star for him was the same. It was truth, justice, and rule of law, and in particular to protect the integrity of the FBI. Those things were all bigger than Jim. And I learned that his devotion to those things, those institutions, those ideals, that's what I found early. And it's just a great North Star to guide you through this story. And it worked for me because that was authentic. That was what he believed in in a very politically divided world. I can tell you a story about my first conversation with Director Comey, which tells, we'll tell you everything about who he is. It certainly told me. I read the book

said I'm in and then I had to be approved by Director Comey. He had script approval. So I was going to have to audition for him. And unfortunately, it was going to have to happen over the phone, which would not be my preference. But a meeting was set via phone where I was in Los Angeles and the producer, Shane Salerno, was in his home. And Comey was in Virginia. He had two book agents in DC and two book agents in New York. And I was basically saying, this is what I'm going to do. This is how I'm going to adapt it. And for the first 10 minutes, I was just crushing.

I mean, everything I said, he loved. It was going so well. And then one of his book agents said, well, how are you going to handle the Hillary thing? And I said, well, I think we've got to take it head on. I mean, I don't want to write an unflod character. And, you know, dramatically, this is Frankenstein. You created the monster and the monster destroyed you. And then Comey said, how did I create the monster?

I said, well, sure, you got him elected. And there was this pause. And then Comey said, you know, there were other factors. I said, that may be, but you created a six point swing and that was enough. And he picked me anyway. That tells me everything there is to know about James Comey because I would not have picked me. If for some unknown reason, someone wanted to tell the Billy Ray story, I would not choose a screenwriter. who went into it thinking that I had inflicted Donald Trump on this country and on this planet.

But Comey did, and he never, ever tried to manipulate me. He never tried to spin me. He was a resource when I had a question. He had an answer. But his integrity just kept sort of evidencing itself in a million different ways. And at that point, I realized that this series was going to be an opportunity for us to say, be Jim Comey for five minutes. here are the factors here's the truth

here are the political realities here's what the world was saying what would you have done and then of course to make that work you need to have an actor who can pull that off so that we know

what the inner life is and we know what the character is thinking even when it's not in the dialogue and that's what Jeff provided and that was sort of the alchemy that makes those moments as compelling as they are yeah you know it did feel a little bit like image rehab for Comey, but not on purpose. I mean, this was the first time that we see the story,

not from the Democratic perspective, which is, you know, this guy screwed it up for Hillary by announcing that he's opening investigation five minutes before the election, or from the Republican perspective of, you know, the guy tried to screw Trump by exonerating her. So now we have it from Comey's perspective. So I think that's, you know, a really valuable perspective that you guys brought. It's the other side. It's the other side. You know, I mean, we know Trump's version Comey lied. Okay, well, this is the other version, you know, and you can decide what's true and what isn't. That's kind of how I look at. I know, I'm interested, Billy, because I've been asked this, and you're telling Comey that he lost the election, and that's certainly what everyone

thought. And I've kind of, and I don't know if I'm right on this, I came to, that there were other factors, certainly, and those are displayed in the movie, which Billy wrote in. But there are other things too that that you know when he announced when it when it came out and he didn't announce it it was leaked from the gang of eight that that it was being reopened

um the media jumped on that like it was red meat because as billy knows that's a great story Hillary Clinton might be guilty and that's that's bombshell and and then when

it was decided that there wasn't anything there, they said there's nothing there. And that's not as good as story. That's less. Oh, she's not guilty. And it, they covered it, but not like they covered the initial he's reopening. It was more like a retraction on page four of the newspaper. And they also think that America was not informed. We were not paying attention like we are now. So there's a shared responsibility So by the time it was it was announced that there's nothing there Most everybody had already

That ship had sailed everybody decided well she's probably guilty I mean whatever I don't know I'm voting for Trump Or I'm not voting for her or whatever it was It was not just Jim There was a lot of other people The media The voter the American voter themselves Not being as informed or maybe paying attention

As much as they should have been There were a lot of fact going and certainly Jim triggered it. I agree with that. But there were other factors. And that just comes from having played him and kind of done a deep dive on him. One of the blessings of doing all the research that I did, you know, Comey's book was a jumping off point for me, but then I had to get on a plane and go meet a million people who would actually experience this firsthand. Some of whom were Comey detractors, by the way. But along the way, I had the opportunity to ask James Clapper, who certainly would know, what was the determining factor in the 2016 election?

And without hesitation, he said it was the Russians. The Russians were the difference between Trump winning and Trump losing. And James Clapper would know. It would. So that was something I needed to be educated about. And then as far as the Comey image rehab goes, if someone had come to me and said, let's do a biopic of Jim Comey, I would have said, And I imagine if I would have gone backstage at Kill a Mockingbird and said to Jeff Daniels, hey, do you want to do a biopic of Jim Comey, he would have said no. I mean, I don't want to speak for you. But this was never a biopic. This was always a story about a public servant and other public servants around that person and how difficult that can be, how heartbreaking that can be. It was more a love story between a man and an institution. But it was not a it was not a

a lifetime story of Jim Comey, that was not what we were doing. And that's, that's, that was never the intention. I'm going to risk a guess here too, that I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to say that a lot of people in America, me included, had to look up the word apolitical in October 2016. And because Jim was kind of that first apolitical public servant who had to be aware of the politics, but ignore them and dismiss them to make his decision. After Jim, came people like Fiona Hill, William Taylor, Colonel Vindman, Marie Yovanovitch. They were like aliens. What do you mean they're not political?

What do you mean they aren't Democrat? I don't get that. Who is what are they? You know, Jim was like the first one of those and that we need those people. And those people are, you know, the battle to be an apolitical public servant is a real battle. There's a line in the series where Mark Giuliano, who was, Comey's former chief of staff is talking about Comey and says, as smart as he is, his political instincts are not good. And Comey, you know, read the script and saw that line. And he sent me an

email saying, do you think my political instincts are not good? And I wrote back, your political instincts are horrible. And that's how I feel. He is a very, very smart man, but I think he had no idea how poisonous the political atmosphere in 2016 actually was. And that misguided some of his instincts, I think. Did James Comey ever come to set? James Coe came to set one day. We were shooting the loyalty dinner, the famous loyalty dinner. It was the only scene in the entire shoot that got its own shooting day.

Generally, we were shooting about four scenes a day, but that was eight and a half pages. of dialogue. So we were taking Jeff back to his theater roots. It was also Jeff's first day working opposite Brendan Gleason as Trump. So as degree of difficulties go, you've got eight and a half pages of dialogue, your first day working opposite Trump, who is going to be doing the bells and whistles part in this show. You've got Jim Comey on set. He brought, I think, his 18-year-old daughter, she might be 19. And I just said, oh, by the way, we don't have. time to rehearse. Here's where you sit. Here's where you sit. Don't freak out. But after Trump says the line, I need loyalty, we're going to start to kill all the lights on the set so

they'll just be an overhead light. So it'll feel like you guys are on an island. Action. And as degrees of difficulty go, it may be a 9.9. But I think it's one of Jeff's best scenes in the movie. I mean, he just killed it. It was a great day. It was film acting, the way film acting is supposed to be. You don't rehearse. You shoot the first take. And you have to read each other. You have to focus on each other. I've always said to Billy, you know, half my performance is in the other actors. So get me great actors. And he did. This cast is loaded. So let's talk Brendan Gleason, you know, starring as Trump. What was it like casting for Trump and why did you go this route? Well, first Brendan said no. When we first

offered it to him for reasons that are obvious. I mean, it's a risky thing to be the first dramatic interpretation of Donald Trump. We weren't doing a sketch. We were doing something much more serious than that. And perhaps the only dramatic interpretation of Trump that there will ever be. That's a possibility. Anyway, he said no. I now know that my casting director, the great Sharon Viali, stayed on his manager and just kept saying, Brendan needs to do this. Brendan needs to do this. That was all behind the scenes. I didn't know what's happening,

but there was about a month or two where Jeff and I were talking every single day about who could play Trump, who's good enough, who's credible, who has the nerve to do it, who will read the script, who said no without reading the script. We were sort of producing together

in that moment because Jeff knew that if you have the wrong Trump, there's no show. You're dead. We're done. thankfully the pressure on Brendan worked and he changed his mind without a new draft of the script he said yes to the same script he had said no to before he brings incredible talent incredible physicality great courage I'm in love with what he did in the same way that I'm in love with what Jeff did I mean that this you could boil this entire series down to the show this is a boxing match between two two heavyweights. And Trump wins most of the rounds, but Comey wins a few. And watching those

two do that dance, that's the fun of night too. Did Alec Baldwin, did you get those guys that expressed interest or that tried to audition or, you know, the comedic iterations of Trump? No, no. There was one moment where I thought very seriously could Kate Blanchett do this. and people talked me down off that roof and just said that no no i had a moment i had a moment and i talked to kathleen about it and my manager and i said what if i played both do we do that patty duke thing from way back in the 60s or whatever and then they both said you think of all the lines you'll have to learn and i said you're right forget it that would have been awesome. No, it would not have been. It would have been a stunt. It wouldn't have been as good.

Brendan brought something. I'll tell you what he brought. He brought a private darkness. Film acting is behind the eyes. And we enter the character through the eyes on film. And Brendan knew how to, that's why give me a great actor because he'll know how to do that. And you get pulled in. He pulls you in. And it's, I felt it sitting at that loyalty dinner. Just pulled me in. You know, that day, after we had shot the first take, I looked back at Director Combe, he was right over my left shoulder, and he said, you are ruining my day in a great way. He said, you are taking me right back to what that dinner was, and this is exactly what it felt like.

And that was pretty gratifying. That was a great moment. That was a touchdown. So, Jeff, playing these heroes who unwittingly walk into the center of political shitstorms has kind of become a recurring theme for you from Will McAvoy to Atticus Finch to James Comey. Is that on purpose?

No, it's just what's coming. And I'm so grateful it's coming. A newsroom has triggered this whole second or third act of my career that is so gratifying to me. All I get are complicated characters where I might fail miserably. And that's the challenge at this age

to it's what's keeping me interested and and Comey was exactly that and it's I think you know MacAvoy triggered all that you start to oh he can do that well then maybe he can do this it's kind of dominoes so I think that's I'm thrilled by it thrilled by it I mean the arc from from dumb and dumber

to a character like James Comey is kind of unlike just the fun of it that's just to fuck with Hollywood that's just to go what do you mean he did dumb and dumber. Well, he can't do drama ever again. And it took a few years to be taken seriously because dumb and dumber was such a hit. But I always wanted to be the guy that could go from Gettysburg to Dumb and Dumber to Will McAvoy to James Comey, Atticus Finch. I just, I love the range of it all. I thought that's what we were supposed to be doing, you know, create characters.

That was the last word I heard. So that's what I've been doing. But you know, now it can be told, Jeff has been doubted at many stages of his career. Oh, my God. And when he was doing dumb and dumber, the producers on that movie were so doubtful that he could pull it off that the first couple days of his shoot on that movie were scenes that didn't have Jim Carrey in them because they were sure it wasn't going to work and that they were going to have to recast. and it took a couple days of his doing scenes without Jim

for the producers say, oh, no, no, he can absolutely do this. So the joke that Jeff's career was interrupted by having done comedy is that the people who cast him didn't think he could do comedy. And then he did. It's true. It's true. But by the time this came around, everybody knew he could play Comey. And everybody knew he was my first choice

and the studio's first choice and the network's first choice. and the only pain in the ass was we really wanted him to get out of to kill a mockingbird early so that we could shoot more before the end of the year and he insisted on completing his one year commitment

to do this sort of Cal Ripkin consistent dependable bullshit guy thing never missed a performance in one year not one performance I was going to Cal Ripkin I wasn't going to drop right

So that meant that we had to wait until he was done November 3rd, which completely imploded our schedule, by the way, but he was worth it. So we worked around it. But that's Jeff. I got to say selfishly, I'm glad he did. I was lucky enough, Jeff, to check out to Kill a Mockingbird on Broadway, and it was far in a way the best show that I'd ever seen.

So, you know, I appreciate that. Sorry, Billy, but I'm glad that that didn't work. it became a real thing that last two months was uh was uh just for a lot of reasons that's usually when shows fall apart people start to phone it in and and we we we had a surgical precision to that show in the end that uh i'm very proud of but it meant me staying there till the very end and i'm glad i did and and a week later we were shooting call me and and i relied on billy i was so dead tired, mentally dead, that I really, Billy was a great Comey historian. I did all the research, did all the book and the audio book and all that, YouTube, but I relied on Billy a lot,

especially that first two months. Thank you. You know, a week before we started shooting, I flew to New York. This was back in the good old days when you could still just get on a plane and fly places without a mask and everybody was fine. I remember then. And I was sitting in in Jeff's apartment and his wife, who is lovely, walked by, and I said, do you have any advice for me? And she said, yes, there will be moments where he's quiet and grumpy on the set, and you're going to think it's you.

It's not you. He's just in his head. And that really helped me, especially in that first week. Yeah, yeah. Especially the first week, because there are moments where you give Jeff direction and he looks at you like, that's the fucking direction, that's what you got for me.

And it's easy to take it personally. And then you realize, I don't know, that's not what he meant at all. He was just sort of processing in his head. And he doesn't have that filter that says, oh, Jeff, nod, as if something smart's just been said to you. He doesn't have that. And so if you're waiting for that as a director, you're going to be standing there for a long time.

It's usually the, Billy, it's usually the actor who needs the validation. no i'm an empty shell oh my god um i absolutely need it but also jeff is a very different kind of actor than any actor i've ever worked with before every other actor i ever worked with the goal is to get there completely organically to never give them a result to never tell them what you want them to do but just to help create the emotional space so that they can get there and Jeff is not that way at all. Jeff will come up to you and say, okay, so you want me to cry on the third syllable?

Is that it? And I go, well, not to put too fine a point on it, but yeah, that'd be great. He says, okay. And then he goes off, and he finds a way to get there. It was a great learning experience for me. What was the, and this is for both of you, best and worst day on set?

I never had a worst day on set, ever. Every day was the best day on that set for me. The cast was spectacular. The crew killed themselves for me. Everybody felt it was their civic duty to be part of this project. It was such an esprit of core, and they felt how hard we were all working, and they knew that our schedule was impossible.

We were essentially shooting two movies in 51 days. Tons of dialogue every single day. As I said, four scenes in a day. said four scenes in a day, but nobody, nobody phoned it in. I mean, everybody on that crew and in that cast brought me their best every day. And it was all a joy. I know that's bad copy, but it was all a joy for me. It's not always that way either. I mean, there are hybrid sets, mixed results of who gives a shit, who doesn't. This was not that at all. This was, we were doing something that mattered. So every day was a good day.

Certainly the loyalty dinner was a best day. I'll tell you another best day because we had to have three things. We had to have a Comey, which we knew, felt after about six weeks, and I felt that I think we're okay. And we have to have a Trump. And then Brendan showed up and bang, there that is, and we got to have an Obama. And the day that Kingsley worked and came in with his Obama,

I turned to Billy and I said, we got it. We got it. That was a great day too. The Obama thing was really critical because it's so early in the movie. It's the first big scene in the movie. And if you were in Obama that it's just so-so, I think the movie would have lost a lot of credibility. But Kingsley came in.

Nailed it. And he comes in and he does that Obama accent and all the mannerisms and he gets the silence right. And he had the confidence. Yes, that was definitely a great day. Definitely a great day. I watched it in a room with a few people, and as soon as we heard, as soon as we heard the Obama speak, you know, everybody, everyone was like, yep, that's exactly it, you know, just absolutely nailed it. And then you throw in what Stu McNary did for Rod Rosenstein and what Holly Hunter does as Sally Yates and what Michael Kelly does as Andrew McCabe.

These are people that are recognized out there. And if you get that stuff wrong, you're in trouble. Yeah. And on this show, we had people like Peter Kodagh. Coyote showing up for a day to do Bob Mueller. I mean, we had Jonathan Banks showing up to do Clapper. This was like an abundance of riches in terms of performance. And they all delivered.

We were loaded all the way around. Yep. So with that said, like, you know, you guys were in the unique position of telling a story as it's unfolding. And so now we're seeing the same Russian influence that happened in 2016 happening again. Do you feel better or worse about the prospects? of a safe and secure election this time around? Do you think we can see through the Russian disinformation campaign this time?

Well, there are two answers to that question. I look at the Democratic National Convention this time compared to what happened in 2016, where the Russian hack that was distributed through WikiLeaks kind of destroyed the 2016 Democratic Convention. Nothing like that happened this year, which tells me that either the difference maker is that Julian Assange is on.

the sidelines this time or that the intel community has sort of caught up to what the Russians are doing. Those are both very, very good signs. There is, however, a counterway to that, which I think is the ultimate bad sign, which is that this time the Russians have cooperation from within the United States government at perhaps the very highest of levels. That is daunting to me. It just so happens that I think the American people are ready for for it. I think the Democratic Party and the Biden campaign and individual Senate and House campaigns are ready. I think they are lawyered up like crazy and doing what they can. But when you have a president who's willing to 86 his own post office and a postmaster general who's willing

to do it, and when you have an attorney general who has decided that his job is to protect the president, not democracy, yeah, that's daunting. I don't know if we're safer than we were in 2016. I would add that all of that. I would add also that what can we do about it, you know? I mean, expressing outrage on social media doesn't cut it. Having politicians stand there in the Capitol Rotunda and scream their outrage doesn't cut it. What can we do about it?

And the first thing we can do about it is vote in large, large numbers. because America that doesn't agree with this outnumbers the white Republican Trump Party that wants to remain in power even though it's a minority. So I'm hoping that the first thing that we can take action and do, aside from the protests, is to vote.

So, Billy, there was some movie drama outside of the series. There was a moment where it was going to air after the election and that was a move that you strongly opposed. Why was it so important that the series air before election day? Two reasons. One is that a big part of our story is what the Russians had done to the election in 2016. Very important to get that story told before Americans go to the polls in 2020, just as a cautionary tale. But the second part of it was much more selfish for me. I had just witnessed spectacular performances by an incredible cast. And I wanted

those performances to be seen. And there was no question in my mind that you air this in late September of an election year, you're going to get eyeballs. And those performances are going to get seen as they should. You air this in late November or early January. It's a historical artifact by that point, and the audience would have been half the size. So this was a big deal for me. And I think it's lovely that people think that a letter that I wrote somehow backed off, you know, a company the size of Viacom. I'm sure that's not true. Gave them cover, though. It gave them some cover. I think that's what it did. I think they knew as a piece of business, this was vastly more valuable in late September than it would be after the election. So they did

the right thing, and I'm grateful they did. So, Jeff, this one's for you. Can you say in one sentence or less why America is the greatest country in the world? I agree with, I agree with Sorkin. We're not. One sentence or less, we're not the greatest country in the world, but if we were to address issues such as systemic racism that's been in the world, certainly in America for 400 years or so, then maybe we could be the greatest country in the world. There's your one sentence. It works for me. So do you guys have any ideas on the nickname that you're going to get from Trump at 2 a.m. on a Sunday? If the President of the United States is tweeting to an actor at 2 in the morning, something tells me that we need somebody that has, you know, something else to do. I mean, that's a complete waste of the President of United States time, if you ask me.

I can't imagine the President doing a greater service to this series than to tweet about it. So, Jeff, about a year ago you were on MSNBC, you had a pretty amazing moment where you asked who the heroes were going to be. You know, this was during Trump's impeachment trial. We're seeing a parallel of that now. We know, for example, that Trump disparaged the troops and the Republicans have been silent. We know that Trump knew about the severity of the virus and he intentionally downplayed it. And again, the Republicans have been silent. So are we done waiting for any heroes from the GOP?

I don't know what it's going to take. Bountys on American soldiers by Russia and not responding to it at all? Calling the military losers and suckers. I don't know what they're waiting for. I really don't. Maybe you're right. Maybe it won't matter. Maybe there's in such survival mode that they're looking at the end of the Republican Party.

Certainly the Republican Party my dad belonged to is gone. And a lot of those guys, you know, who were of that, Persuasion, center right, resigned, got out, left, outnumbered. I don't know. I don't know if the – I think the people that are there now, if they don't speak up, if they don't step forward, they're certainly part of the problem, but they're also as guilty as Trump is of putting party over country. I think it's shameful. I really do. But, you know, there's still a month till the election. They have time.

You know, there is a, speaking of that small slice of the country, there's a small slice of the country that's still undecided. What do you have to say to those people? I'd say get informed. Just get informed. You need to get informed. You need to know more than you do. You need to, if you're worried about Biden, you need to dig into him. You need to find out.

Is he better for you than Trump? Is he better for the country than Trump? We have to start thinking of people other than ourselves. And I know that's really hard for people to do when they got their nose and their phones most of the day. But this is the time when we have to think of other people and who we want to be, who we want to become. You have to decide it you want to be, you want to follow Trump or do you want to follow Biden? It's a pretty clear choice. It shouldn't be that hard to be decided about which may want to go.

One of them has decency, compassion, generosity, and caring for other people. The other one doesn't. I would say that Trump asked for your vote in 2016 based on four promises. I will bring back manufacturing. Your health care will get better and cheaper. Mexico will pay for the wall, and I will drain the swamp. He had a Republican House and a Republican Senate and went 0 for four on those promises, which either means they were not good ideas or he's not a terribly effective leader.

But either way, I would say you deserve better. And I would evaluate him strictly in terms of performance. Yeah. Well, thank you guys both so much. Please, everyone, make sure to watch the Comey Rule on Showtime on September 27th and 28th. Thank you. Thank you guys. Again, Billy and Jeff. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thanks. Thanks again to Jeff Daniels and Billy Ray.

And again, make sure to check out the Comey Rule on Showtime, September 27th and 28th. Hang in there, everyone. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels.