No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Manchin and Sinema act as major roadblock to entire Democratic agenda

Episode Date: October 3, 2021

Chaos erupts as Democrats deal with the bipartisan infrastructure package and the reconciliation package. Brian interviews Nancy Northup, the President and CEO of the Center for Reproductive Rights, which is representing Dr. Braid – the physician who wrote an op-ed admitting he’d given a Texas woman an abortion in violation of the new abortion ban – now that he’s being sued. And Ben Wikler, chair of the Wisconsin Democratic Party, joins to talk about the work he’s doing to help elect Democrats in one of the closest swing states in the nation.Donate to the Center for Reproductive Rights: https://bit.ly/3ux3aiI Donate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about the chaos that was the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the reconciliation package this past week. I interview Nancy Northup, the president and CEO of the Center for Reproductive Rights, which is representing Dr. Brayden Court, the physician who wrote an op-ed, admitting he'd given a Texas woman an abortion in violation of the new abortion ban. And I'm joined by Ben Wickler, chair of the Wisconsin Democratic Party about the work he's doing to help elect Democrats in one of the closest swing states in the nation. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie.

So whether you're paying close attention to politics or not, I'm sure you've heard about the mayhem happening right now between the bipartisan infrastructure package or the bipartisan infrastructure framework, the BIF, which includes all of the traditional infrastructure priorities like roads, bridges, and so on, and the reconciliation package, which comprise the rest of the build-back better agenda,

the human infrastructure, all of the climate provisions, care economy, social spending, and so on. And since the outset, everyone knew that these two bills were moving forward in tandem. Like, it was so understood that they were linked and that the passage of one was contingent on the passage of the other that even Biden said outright that he wasn't going to pass one without the other. I expect that in the coming months this summer, before the fiscal year is over, that we will have voted on this bill as well, the infrastructure bill, as well as voted on the budget resolution. And that, that,

That's when, you know, but if only one comes to me, I'm not, if this is the only meaning that comes to me, I'm not signing it. It's in tandem. But then a faction of nine centrist Democrats in the House, who were led by Josh Gottheimer, demanded that the bipartisan infrastructure bill get a vote by September 27th, or his group would tank the budget. And that was followed by Joe Manchin and Kirsten Sinema in the Senate, announcing their own frustration with waiting for the reconciliation package to be able to pass the $1 trillion

infrastructure package. But here's the thing. We are kidding ourselves. If we're just going to sit here and pretend that the centrists are just looking to pass the BIF and then we'll totally, definitely pass the reconciliation package afterwards. Like, we already know enough of them don't want it. We already know Mansion and Cinema don't support it. So we're really just going to blindly pass the hard infrastructure bill and give up our

only leverage? Come on. Progressives know that the second they pass the BIF, that's the end of the billback better agenda, which would be catastrophic. Because remember, we've got unified control of government maybe for just one more year. This may very well be our one and only chance to pass anything. Our only chance to pass any meaningful legislation on climate change, on health care, on allowing the governments to negotiate lower prescription drug prices.

We won't have this shot again. So to just give it up because a few centrists want the BIF past, what, today instead of in a few weeks? This country's infrastructure has been crumbling for like 50 years. I think our roads can make it to November. and be just fine. And keep in mind, too, politically, the centrists need the BIF more than the progressives need the reconciliation package.

Because when midterms roll around and nothing has passed and these reps go back to their districts with nothing to show for themselves, the progressives are going to be fine. They're still going to win re-election in their safe blue districts. It's the centrist who will have shown their constituents that they weren't capable of getting anything done,

who won't have any roads or bridges or broadband, and they're the ones who are going to lose their races because they're ineffectual, not the progressives. It is them who should be doing whatever they can to ensure that the entire build-back better agenda gets passed, otherwise they're going to have to convince a swing district to re-elect them despite having delivered nothing. And yet still, despite all of this,

centrists are claiming that the progressives are the ones blocking the BIF. Progressives aren't blocking the BIF. Progressives want to pass the BIF, and they'll do it just as soon as the reconciliation package also passes, which, again, was the deal all along. That's the difference here. Progressives want both the BIF and reconciliation to pass. Centrists only want the Biff to pass and are willing to sink reconciliation.

So tell me which one of those two groups sounds like they're the ones opposing things. And even more important still, beyond all of this, it is crazy to suggest that progressives are blocking anything when the thing they're actually defending right now is passing the agenda that Joe Biden ran on. The stuff within reconciliation is Joe Biden's build back better agenda. It's climate programs, it's child tax credits, It's dental and vision and hearing for seniors, it's housing, it's paid family leave,

it's universal pre-K, it's child care, Medicaid expansion, free community college, long-term care for seniors. These provisions are overwhelmingly popular. Data for progress pulled support for this. It's supported by 85% of Democrats and 62% of all Americans. Those margins are enormous. And the way it's paid for is even more popular. 68% of Americans support raising taxes on wealthy business owners, 66% of Americans support increasing capital gains tax on the wealthy, 64% support raising taxes on Americans who make over 400K a year, another 64% support increasing IRS funding, and by the way, the bipartisan infrastructure bill is incredibly popular too. 69 senators from both parties voted for it in the Senate, and it's supported by two-thirds of all

Americans. And progressives overwhelmingly support it also, and they will pass it, but they're going to do it in tandem with the equally popular reconciliation bill, just like they're. were promised. So now, all eyes are on who else, but Kirsten Cinema and Joe Manchin. Now, Manchin, for his part, has called for a $1.5 trillion reconciliation bill, which is a third of what progressives are looking for. Here's him calling for that amount when pressed for a ceiling on CNN. Your party leader, Chuck Schumer, says he's moving, quote, full speed ahead with this package. Will he have your vote? And that's fine. He can't. He will not have my vote on 3.5,

and Chuck knows that. And we've talked about this. Let's talk about the dollar sign. Yeah. Do you have a specific number in mind? Here's a number you should be getting to. First of all, I have agreed to get on to the reconciliation because that's the time for us to make financial adjustments and changes. But what's the overall number for the budget bill? I think you're going to have to look at it and find out what you're able to do through a reasonable responsible way.

So then how do you know that it's not 3.5? It's going to be at one, one and a half. We don't know where it's going to be. Which is especially ironic, considering this is the same. Joe Manchin who'd previously called for spending as high as $4 trillion earlier this year. The most important thing? Doing them big infrastructure. Spend two, three, four trillion dollars over a 10-year period on infrastructure.

And that's exactly what this reconciliation bill is. A $3.5 trillion plan over 10 years of monumentally popular provisions, and it is fully paid for in ways that are even more popular. This is a win all around. And yet he's arbitrarily decided that it doesn't work for him. And yet even that, even that is preferable to Kierston Cinema's position, which is a complete fucking mystery. Seriously, she won't even deign to say what she wants. All we know is that she won't support it.

In fact, to figure out what she's looking for, you'd probably have to go to her Pax's high-end resort and spa retreat weekend that she attended in Arizona with donors for cocktails and dinner. Here is the one single quote that I've heard from the lips of Kirsten Cinema this week. And it was when a journalist asked her about where she is on the issue of an active. Biden's agenda, and this is what she said. That she's saying that progressives that are frustrated that they don't know where you are. In the Senate. There are progressives within the Senate that are frustrated that they don't know where you are either.

That she's clearly right in front of the elevator. That's her response to reporters telling her that progressives don't know where she is. Get it? It's her cute little way of saying, fuck you to seniors going broke, paying for hearing aids and children who are being left a planet on fire. Like, it is hard to stand out for being shitty in a legislative body that includes Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley. Kirsten Cinema somehow managed to do exactly that. And look, again, it's so easy to get lost in the politics of this, the day-to-day battles and jockeying and who won what and all of the Beltway bullshit.

But just remember what's actually at stake here. There are people who need help. There are Americans who are in desperate need of child care and elder care, who are in desperate need of. lower drug prices, who are in desperate need of lower housing costs and action on climate change, this plan has solutions for people who need them, people who are hurting, people who showed up to elect Democrats because they believed that they would fix it. So look, neither of these bills are dead. I would still bet that both the bipartisan infrastructure bill and some iteration of the reconciliation bill are going to pass. And I think that they'll be

transformative and they will change the lives of hundreds of millions of people. And hopefully, if it doesn't get watered down, it could change the course of history for the better. But until then, those centrists who are opposing this right now should be less concerned about showing just how much power they have by trying to sink their own party's agenda and more focused on doing what people showed up at the polls to elect them to do. Everyone would stand to benefit, especially those centrists themselves.

Next up is my interview with Nancy Northup. Today we have Nancy Northup, the president and CEO of the Center for Reproductive Rights. Nancy, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for following this. is such an important issue. Now, of course, your organization is going to be representing Dr. Braid and his clinic. And we all know that Dr. Braid is the San Antonio physician who wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post, admitting that he'd performed an abortion after Texas's six-week abortion ban went into effect. Now, shortly after that op-ed was written, a lawsuit was duly

filed by a disbarred attorney out of Arkansas. So is there any sense of relief that now this issue can finally be litigated? Well, absolutely. What's really been frustrating, about the Texas case is that the Center for Reproductive Rights and other legal organizations, a really big coalition sued back in July of 2021, months before it was to go into effect on September 1st, because that's what you do when you know something's going to cause harm, and it's as blatantly unconstitutional as this, is you sue so that you can get an injunction. Well, because of the very devious way in which the six-week ban is drafted giving private vigilantes, the ability to sue and the government says, we're not enforcing the law. We haven't been able to get that injunction. The United States

government came in and could not get that injunction. They're going to have a hearing later this week. But so this is an opportunity with these new lawsuits that have been filed against Dr. Brade to finally get this issue before a court. It's a blatantly unconstitutional law and people are suffering in the state of Texas. And so far the courts haven't stepped in. It's very frustrating. Now, prior to this issue being litigated, we'd seen an immediate chilling effect take place in Texas. Do you have any indication of just how many abortions in the state were impacted after SB8 went into effect? Well, probably about 85% of the abortions in the state of Texas, because that's how many are usually after six weeks. You know, six weeks is before most people

would know that they are pregnant. And so most abortions in Texas are now unattainable. And we're hearing from our clients from the clinics in Texas that, you know, they're having for the people who are still even coming in. So like Dr. Braid is saying, look, he's having to turn about a third of the patients that are coming in away. But many more aren't coming in because they know that they can't get an abortion in the state of Texas. And so they're just going directly to other states like Oklahoma or New Mexico. Some people going as far as New York, Illinois, Florida, California. I mean, everyone, Colorado. They're all reporting that they're seeing patients from Texas. Now, does a doctor have the ability to be sued multiple times for performing abortions? In other words, like, once Dr. Braid

has already done it, can he just kind of have carte blanche to continue doing it because he's already involved in litigation? No, every single incidence of performing an abortion in violation of the six-week ban, every single incident itself could be the basis of unlimited number of lawsuits. I mean, this legislation says that anybody can sue, as you pointed out, someone in Arkansas sued, you know, and so from all over the country people could sue, from all over Texas people could sue, there's no limit. And that's for one abortion. If he were to have been providing abortions, you know, for the entire time that this hasn't been settled, every single one of those limitless numbers of lawsuits.

Now, when is this issue going to court, and are you doing anything to expedite this process? Because think about how many women need abortions today. Like, women don't have the luxury of just penciling in their abortions months from once the justice systems had a chance to get us act together. Exactly. And, you know, let's just start with the impact that it's having on people in Texas. It is having the most profound impact on people who already are challenged in accessing health care. So that's black, indigenous, people of color, people in rural communities, immigrants in Texas where there are internal checkpoints. You literally can't leave the state. So, you know, there's going to be a

hearing on the 1st of October. The Department of Justice has sued Texas in a case called the United States versus Texas, which is awesome because never before has the U.S. come in to sue a state about an abortion restriction. That hearing for an injunction will be on Friday, October the 1st. So that would be the next opportunity. You know, we and others have tried every way to get this expedited. We asked for expedited consideration the first time we went to the Supreme Court. We went back to the Supreme Court last week and asked for expedited consideration. We've gone to the Court of Appeals for expedited consideration. It's just been really, really kind of stonewalling from the courts. And again, this is what is harming people who have a constitutional right to these services. There's no question

about that. Now, you're also representing Jackson's women's health in an upcoming Supreme Court case, and that deals with constitutionality of a Mississippi law banning abortions after 15 weeks of presidency. Do you expect this one to come before or after the case challenging the merits of the Texas lawsuit? Well, it probably will be coming before we have argument in the Mississippi case in which the state of Mississippi has asked the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, that argument's going to be on December the 1st. So even though we've gone to the Supreme Court in the Texas case just last week saying, look, expedite an actual Supreme Court decision on Texas, which is an unusual thing,

but they do have the power to do it, just skip over the Court of Appeals. They've said what they're going to do. That would not likely be heard before December the 1st. So it does look like the first time the Supreme Court's really going to be hearing argument on should Roe v. be overturned is going to be on December the 1st. So do you expect the ruling from the Mississippi case to basically just answer the other question, you know, with regard to Texas?

Like, the Supreme Court can either defer to precedent in Roe, which means that women have the right to a safe and legal abortion, or they won't, in which case it won't matter, whether it's a six-week ban like the one in Texas or a 15-week ban like the one in Mississippi. They're just gutting Roe. You're absolutely right. There's no way for the Supreme Court. to rule for the state of Mississippi in the Jackson Women's Health Organization case, the one argued on December 1st, no way for them to do that without overturning Roe versus Wade.

And so that's why we've really, so many people have come to the four last week. There were what are called Friend of the Court briefs that interested parties can file in the Supreme Court case. Fifty of those were filed on behalf of Jackson Women's Health Organization on behalf of not overturning Roe versus Wade. It was such a broad group of support from the American Medical Association saying don't overturn Rovers is weight, the American Bar Association. We had leading athletes, including the WNBA Players Association and the women's soccer team and association of players. So it really has been just phenomenal support. But yeah, this is when it's going to be decided. But hopefully before then, the Texas law will be enjoined, either in the Department of Justice's case, in these defenses to the lawsuits against Dr. Braid in the underlying case or the first case that was filed by all of us back in July.

You know, we can't let this go on in Texas. It's been almost a month. It is just unacceptable to be denying constitutional rights, to be denying health care that people need and to be forcing people to go out. state, and many just don't have the means to do so. Now, absent federal legislation like the Women's Health Protection Act, because Roe is effectively only as protected as the precedent that a 6-3 conservative court decides to or not to protect, which is to say, like, a pretty tenuous degree of protection, what's going to be your argument in defense of both Dr. Brade and Jackson?

Well, I think in those cases, and we have filed our brief in the Supreme Court, We've made clear three things about why Roe should be respected. The first is what you just said, which is precedent. I mean, for the rule of law to mean anything, it means that after 48 years, a constitutional decision that has been reaffirmed again and again and again for very good reasons needs to stand. I mean, the court's integrity is on the line.

So precedent itself. And then the fundamental right, which the court has looked at again and again for 48 years, women's equality. I mean, the ability to participate, and these are the court's own words from almost 30 years ago, women's ability to fully participate in the social, economic, and political life of the nation depend on our ability to control our reproductive health. And, you know, thirdly, the absolute chaos that would occur, they're seeing it right now in Texas. They can look in Texas and see what's happening, where not only are people, you know,

leaving the state to try to get abortion services, it's burdening care in other states. In Oklahoma, there are now weights. In Arizona, there are now weights. And so just, you know, if they think this is going to solve some, you know, longstanding dispute about abortion by reversing Roe v. Wade, you know, they've got an absolute different picture that will be coming. So that is what we're arguing to the Supreme Court. But I'm glad that you mentioned the women's Health Protection Act because the reality is Congress could fix this entire situation right now. And indeed, the House voted on September the 24th to do just that to pass the Women's Health Protection Act that would address these unconstitutional bans by making them in violation of the

act that would address every new thing that's come up with under the sun to try to unduly burden the access to abortion care. You know, there's about 50 lawsuits going on right now in various states across the nation about restrictions on abortion care. And the Women's Health Protection Act would address those. So everybody should realize that now is past the House. The eyes are on the Senate. And we need to be really loud and clear that we're not going to just let rights come and go and ebb and flow based on court hearings, what the Supreme Court does. Congress can fix this right now. Building on that, of course, and this is my favorite topic because this is, you know, what I find myself talking about every single week. Once we get legislation into the Senate, obviously

all of that legislation is being held back by the filibuster. Now, the elimination of the filibuster would allow for legislation like this to pass. So do you have any message to those democratic holdouts who continue to defend the filibuster at moments like this? I absolutely do. I mean, the Senate for reproductive rights is advocating. that when we have issues of constitutional deprivation of rights, reproductive rights, voting rights, fundamental constitutional rights, the Senate should not be having the filibuster. A majority of the senators should be able to enact legislation to address violations of constitutional rights. So yes, loud and clear, the filibuster should go so that the Women's Health Protection Act could advance

with just a majority of senators. Now, in a break glass scenario where the Supreme Court does gut row, what happens next? How do we protect a woman's right to a safe and legal abortion in this country? Well, I think there are going to be multiple fronts. One is, of course, is going to be this push for federal legislation. Ultimately, that is going to be required to make sure that everyone in the nation has the same rights. But there's also going to be a, you know, there's going to be a real response in states. There's going to be a response by looking at state constitutions.

I mean, the beautiful thing about the American constitutional system is that all of us get to carry two sets of rights, our federal constitutional rights, and each of our states have constitutional rights. And some of those are stronger than the federal constitution. So we'll be looking to protect on that, looking to protect with state legislation. And there's just going to be massive mobilization and protest because it's been really clear, even in the response in Texas, in the response to the Jackson Women's Health Organization case, that, you know, people are not going backwards. We are not going to return to a time when more than half the nation's population does not have control over their bodies, their lives, and their futures. So there will be a tremendous response. We are not going to return to the days before Roe versus Wade.

Now, I don't know how political you want to get here, but this is clearly a political issue. And so even though the politicians and operatives on the right are the ones pushing these laws, the fact is that 70% of Americans, which includes majorities on both sides of the political spectrum, do support Roe. So what would you say to those elected officials in the GOP who are running off the cliff in their desperation to strip women of their bodily autonomy? I mean, you know, the set of reproductive rights, we work in the court. We don't support and oppose candidates.

But I would say to all elected officials, you know, one is. and four women have an abortion in their lifetime. So you are absolutely right that the polls are with us, but also what's really important is the decision that people make the vote they take when it's about their own life. And the one in four women who choose to have an abortion, they run the political spectrum, they run, you know, urban to rural, they're in every single state. They're in every single person's congressional district, every person's, you know, Senate, you know, state and every kind of religion, every kind of background throughout different age groups, all of it. And so, you know, as I said before, there is going to be an incredible

strong political response. In the end of the day, the right will be protected. It will take some time, perhaps, if the court guts roll versus Wade. But we've just seen a major, major shift even in the last, you know, five years. I mean, the Biden administration has been incredibly supportive. They are strongly supportive of the Women's Health Protection Act. The vice president invited abortion providers to the White House to meet with her and talk about what the situation is for their patients on the ground. That had never. happened before. We're going to have a gender strategy, a national gender strategy coming out of the White House. That had never happened before. There has been the passage of our annual budget

through the House without restrictions on abortion care through the Hyde Amendment. So important hadn't happened. And so this is really just, it's been a culture shift. It's been a political shift. The fact that you had so many, obviously a majority of the House voting for the Women's Health Protection Act, I mean, it's the tide has turned. And so I would say to all elected officials, you need to listen to the people. Thank you so much for not only coming here to speak with me, but for the work that you're doing and, you know, for women in Texas and Mississippi and across the country. So thank you. Great. Thank you. Thanks again to Nancy Northup. Now we have the chair of the Wisconsin.

and Democratic Party. Ben Wickler, thanks for coming back on. So great to be here with you. So I'm glad that we get to talk because, you know, if there's anything that I think that we should stress, it is how important it is to be spending this time now in an off year of a midterm cycle when people are usually tuning politics out, actually building up our infrastructure. So can you speak to what you're doing in Wisconsin? Absolutely. And you're exactly right. It's actually, in a sense, more important to do this kind of work when the spotlight's not turned on, then at the final stretch, when everybody's

tuning in. In Wisconsin, we've got, we're in year five at a statewide year-round organizing program. So this past weekend, we had folks knocking on doors and making phone calls and sending text messages in every corner of our state, not to convince people of anything, but just to ask them what issues they care the most about. We call it the bridge building script. It's something we we use when we're talking to folks who might not be died in the world Democrats, but might be folks who we could persuade to turn out and vote for Democrats come 2022. You don't want to reach out and potentially mobilize, you know, hard-right conservatives right before an election. But when the election's far away, it's a really, really good time to start having conversations that could

lead to votes down the road. So that, our coalition team working with black Latino and API Wisconsinites with tribal nations, our rural Wisconsin power-up training program. We're training a lot of folks across rural Wisconsin in partnership with our rural caucus, our voter protection team, which is fighting against a Republican effort to really intimidate local election clerks so that they'll stop providing good access to the ballot. All that stuff has to happen in an off year for us to have the best possible chance in the on year. And it's what we're waking up every day doing right now. Now, what are those responses showing, those conversations with Wisconsinites? Where are they showing?

It's interesting. You know, some people you talk to, and it's like you're talking to a Fox News anchor because people are hearing things on right wing dark radio and they pair them right back to you. Yeah, just regurgitating talking points. Yep. And you can kind of tell when you're talking to someone who's not speaking from their lived experience. They're just saying an opinion that they picked up.

But when people are talking about what is actually happening in their lives, I mean, one thing I'll point to that's not on the now. national kind of headlines right now, but is so present in people's lives, is the cost of prescription drugs. It still costs so much to fill a prescription. And this is something where, you know, if the Democratic, the build back better plan passes, it empowers Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices. That would dramatically change people's lives. So, you know, that kind of thing that affects people in their pocketbook really, really makes the difference. And hearing hearing from people about it is a huge antidote to just, you know, following the, you know,

the ebbs and flows of the news about whatever the kind of obsession of the day is, that is totally disconnected from lived experience of people on the ground. Right. Now, are you finding that people are less inclined to participate or pay attention since we are in an off year and because, you know, Trump's out of office? I will tell you that I expected a massive fall off in interest and engagement this year. You know, if you look at 20, 2009, after Obama was elected, Democratic energy ebbed enormously. But what we're finding, in fact, is we have more volunteers turning out for these canvases now than we did at this time in 2019. We had more volunteers in our spring election in 2021 than we did in the spring election for

Supreme Court in 2020. So the energy on the Democratic side is still enormous. And I think that's both because people see the opportunity for meaningful change coming from the Biden Build Back Better plan, but also because this threat of the total destruction of our democracy and what Trump is trying to do to question the last election, to steal the next one, that's so present for people. And if you believe in democracy, you know that this is an on-year. We have to fight now to preserve it for the long run. Totally, totally. Now, I know that you're not exactly registering new voters because Wisconsin has same-day registration. So what's the metric that you use to represent a new potential Democratic voter?

Yeah. So we, I mean, we talk to people about registration and if they're, if they have the right ID and can do it online and all that kind of stuff, then we certainly encourage them to do it. But the key thing is getting people who commit to vote. Because once you've committed, we can, and we have your, made sure we have your correct contact information, then we have a really effective operation to ensure that people do get to the polls with the right identification, same day register and cast a ballot at that moment. And it's a very satisfying thing to do that I've done myself in Wisconsin. Johnson, starting with the beginning of early vote all the way through the time polls closed, you can register and vote in one fell swoop. Do you have any metrics or anything like that to show how effective you've been in terms of converting one of these people who you speak to to an actual vote at the polls? I'll give a related metric that just blows my mind, which is last year of people who requested an absentee ballot, 98% wound up voting, which is a, and that's a, and that And we were able to follow up over and over with people once you made the request

to make sure that the ballot arrive, have you sent it in? If it is sent in, is it going to be rejected? Can you go in and correct it? Maybe you forgot to sign your envelope. And so we kind of have a, the tech term is a funnel where you start at the top of it and go down each step from a person who's not voting into someone whose vote has been successfully cast and counted. It's going from being somebody who's unregistered.

Some people are unregistered and don't vote because they are totally. skeptical of the entire enterprise of politics. They think all politicians are corrupt. Some people, they've just moved and they haven't updated their voter registration. And Wisconsin, unfortunately, when you, it is easier to register with a new address than to change your existing registration for a lot of people. And so a lot of people who show up as new registrants are actually people who voted a lot of times in the past, but just hadn't brought in their new, you know, proof of residence. Now, Wisconsin's election results are always on a knife's edge. Biden beat Trump by about 20,000 votes in 2020. Trump beat Hillary Clinton by a similar margin in 2016.

How do we make this less precarious? Or what are you doing within the Wisconsin Democratic Party to make this less precarious? You know, especially considering now the smaller the margin, the more likely it is that Republicans are going to try to steal any election that's even remotely close. It's so wild. Wisconsin is the most closely divided state in the country. Actually, four out of the last six elections, presidential elections here, came down to less than one percentage point. Our governor's race in 2018 was 1.1 percentage point. Our Supreme Court race in 2019 was 0.4 percentage points. And, you know, the list goes on and on.

We were the closest state in the country in 2004 and, you know, have been in the top three for, you know, for the last six elections. So it is a real problem. And the striking thing is that the total turnout goes up and down enormously from election to election. So it's like it's not like we're ecstatic. It's like we put everything we possibly can into it. And the other side does two.

and then one or the other edges the other side. Ultimately, to me, we need to build year-round statewide infrastructure through the party, through independent grassroots organizations, and have a deep bench of candidates so that we have great candidates running for every office, every time, and we build the habit with voters to cast a ballot in every election, whether it's the earth-shaking presidential election or a spring election for mayor or the superintendent of public construction,

when people always vote, then you create a kind of bank of voters, and then you can build on top of that. And, you know, what's tough is when you have to go out and make the case to vote in a midterm to people who normally just vote in presidential elections. So that to us, staying in touch with tons of people everywhere and building local teams of volunteers who know every inch of their turf. That's the key to making this a bluish state instead of a bright purple state. Well, you know, what's interesting about that, too, is just a few years ago, Wisconsinites turned out, amid pretty terrible conditions to elect a Democrat to the state Supreme Court. And even though that's not a midterm cycle election or it's not a presidential election, look how important some of those races are,

especially when you look at things happening in Texas and, you know, these are at these are at the state level. And if you don't have checks in place against this tyrannical agenda being pushed on the right, then like, you know, what we're seeing in Texas right now with SB8, the six-week abortion ban or the 15-week, abortion ban in Mississippi could happen elsewhere. And so these elections really are important. And I think Republicans doing their best to enact their agenda is just showing people the importance of, yeah, turning out in elections that aren't just presidential elections.

That's a million percent right. You have to treat this as a year-round part of being a citizen and a person in the world. I was elected chair in June of 2019, right after we lost the state Supreme Court election by 5,924 votes. That was a heart-wrenching loss. I knocked on doors while I was running for chair, I took breaks to knock on doors for the progressive in that Supreme Court race and vowed in my campaign and as chair to just throw everything we could into these off-year elections.

And in spring of 2020, we wound up winning by 11 percentage points, which was something we did not expect at all. Especially because they closed down how many voting locations in Milwaukee? Out of 168, it was down to five. I mean, it was stunning, and Republicans refused to delay the election or mail people ballots because they wanted COVID to act as a tool of voter suppression. I remember that day with, you know, just with tears in my eyes, I think people on ventilators in the rain waiting to get into a polling place where they might catch COVID. Republicans forced that to happen. But people kind of reacted by actually working harder to win.

The thing that, you know, that spring helped set the stage for that fall. Republican turnout for Trump went up by 15% relative to 2020. Democratic turnout shot up 18%. We won by a hair's breath. And then spring of 2021, this spring for the Department of Public Instruction race, this was when I was worried that engagement would drop off because we'd won the presidency. But turnout in our spring election this year, relative to four years before, which, you know, 2017, the rise of the resistance year, this year our spring turnout was up 29%. And that is, and we won by a 16% of this point margin. And that is what gives me hope in this state where everything is so hard fought that there are people who are making it

their job to show up in every election. Since you've been chair, Ben, how many statewide elections have Democrats won and lost? We've had three and we've won three. I knew you wouldn't say, but I wanted to make sure that it was said. So let's end with this. You know, the lessons that we can take from Wisconsin's successes are really important, you know, given your position. is pretty much the closest state in the country. What advice would you give to other battleground states, both in terms of messaging and also in terms of mobilizing and engaging voters? So for messaging, I love the race class narrative project, which is a project that helps to, you know, helps folks involved in any kind of issue fight or political fight, not to pretend

race doesn't exist or doesn't matter, but also not to only talk about race at the exclusion of economic issues and issues that affect people across race, which, of course, every racial issue ultimately does. It's especially by pointing out how Republicans use race to divide people in order to pick the pockets of people across race, white, black, and brown. What Republicans are doing right now, pretending to freak out of her so-called critical race theory, they're using that so they can attack schools and public education, which hurts white students and black students and brown students across the spectrum and tie the hands of teachers and force them out of the profession. So I think with messaging, you want to look for a message that that draws a circle that

includes all the voters in your coalition, not just a not just a particular subset. And Democrats sometimes get scared about, you know, addressing issues that the other side is raising constantly. The other side is not going to go away just because you're ignoring their issues. So the race class narrative is my note on messaging. More broadly, though, the thing that I would love for every state party to find a way to be able to do is to build a year-round organizing program. And that means finding folks who can invest the resources, make monthly donations, which is something we're obsessed with encouraging people to do, so that you can have staff on spring, summer, fall, and winter. And the way we do it is we build local teams, it's the Obama organizing model of folks who then

organize their neighbors to talk to their neighbors. Neighbor-to- Neighbor-to- Neighbor organizing has the biggest impact. But it's something that takes time. It's like a tree. You have to plant that early, if you want it to be big enough by the time election day comes. So year-round neighbor to neighbor organizing and use of messaging frames that resonate across lines of race and geography in rural and urban and suburban places like. That to me is the core of what a party should do so that when candidates arrive, they have a statewide field program ready to go, and people actually know how to communicate in ways that resonate with the voters they're talking to. The success of this isn't just theoretical. All you have to do is look at a place like Georgia

to see what the benefits are of investing early. And, you know, we have two Democratic senators now representing that otherwise red state. So with that said, for those listening, we've just added the Wisconsin Democratic Party as the newest partner in the Don't Be a Mitch Fund. So if you are looking to help support the Wisconsin Democratic Party, which clearly, I think, if you've taken anything from this, it's that support is so important, you can donate to the Don't Be a Mitch Fund. If you want to specifically donate to the state of Wisconsin, to the Wisconsin Democratic Party, you can customize amounts and make your donation specifically

to that state party. So with that said, Ben, thank you for the work you're doing in Wisconsin and doing such a good job to keep that state blue. And we'll keep supporting you however we can. Thanks so much, Brian. Really grateful to you and all your listeners. Thanks again to Ben Wickler. Again, if you want to donate to the Don't Be a Mitch Fund to support the Wisconsin Democratic Party, the link is in the show notes. You can customize your donation to benefit only the Wisconsin Democrats, or you can donate to all nine organizations from nine different states. Either way, your money will be going to good use.

Okay, that's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out briantylercoen.com for links to all of my other channels.