No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Mary Trump on Donald finally catching COVID

Episode Date: October 4, 2020

Trump tests positive for coronavirus and Biden responds to Trump putting his life in danger. Brian interviews Mary Trump on Trump’s positive test, the debate, and her new lawsuit against her uncle.Written by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CAhttps://www.briantylercohen.com/podcast/Visit votesave.us/btc to register to vote, verify your registration, and find any information you need on voting.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Trump testing positive for coronavirus. Who else has contracted it? Biden's response to Trump putting his life in danger. And what would happen with the election if Trump was no longer able to run? I also speak with Trump's niece, Mary Trump, about his positive test result, her lawsuit against him, and his performance in the last debate. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. First off, I have an exciting announcement,

and that's that I'll be live streaming Wednesday's VP debate between Commonal Harris and Mike Pence on YouTube and giving a real-time fact check, and my co-host for the pre-show will be Mary Trump. So in addition to our interview in this episode, visit my YouTube channel, Brian Tyler Cohen, go to the pin video at the top of my page, and click Set Reminder, Super easy. This way you don't miss me and Mary Trump or any of what promises to be a really, really good debate. I'll be starting at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific. Okay, so Donald Trump has tested positive for coronavirus, which on one hand is shocking. because he's ostensibly the safest person in the world,

but also completely unsurprising because his strategy over the last seven months has been to willfully downplay the severity of the virus. This is a guy who's not only trafficked in reckless behavior, but he's been the epicenter of it. It was Donald Trump who claimed that it was contained, that it goes away with the heat, that it affects virtually nobody. He spent months politicizing masks, the single most effective tool we have to contain the virus.

He fomented protests against state homeowners by tweeting out demands to liberate states that then led to spikes among the attendees, he has single-handedly done more to exacerbate this crisis than anyone or anything else in this country. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he got it. I should be surprised that it took this long. So as of this recording, Trump's hospitalized at Walter Reed Medical Center. Here's the quick timeline of what we know as of this recording, Saturday, October 3rd. Hope Hicks had begun feeling sick on Wednesday while in Minnesota for Trump's rally. She started to self-isolate on Air Force One on the way back to Washington, which presumably Trump knew about.

Hopix then tested positive on Thursday. And yet, despite the fact that Trump traveled with her on both Tuesday and Wednesday, he opted to go to a fundraiser with some donors in New Jersey because money. He then flew back to D.C. Thursday night. And after the media reported Hopix positive test result, Trump reportedly took a test and shortly thereafter announced that he was positive too. As for his status, it's still general. unclear because, shockingly, there's just a little bit of a credibility gap for this White

House. An example being that on Saturday, Trump's doctor, the White House physician, Navy Commander Sean Coley, was purposefully evasive when it came to whether Trump had been given supplemental oxygen. But he did paint a rosy picture on how well Trump was doing. But then a few minutes later, a source came on record saying, quote, the president's vitals over the last 24 hours were very concerning and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care. We're still not on a clear path to a full recovery. That source was then identified as Trump's chief of staff, Mark Meadows. Trump reportedly got pissed off that Meadows gave that info and started recording videos of himself purporting to feel fine and reviewing documents, which all sounds very

real and legitimate. Now, if it feels like the information we're getting is conflicting and purposefully vague, that's because it is. Like, consider two, the White House never announced Hope Hicks was sick. Bloomberg News reported it. So who knows if we we'd have ever known. And if we don't know about her, who knows if we'd have ever known about Trump? But I guess we shouldn't be surprised that a White House that let this virus explode because they opted for a strategy of denialism and cover-ups would then employ a strategy of denialism and cover-ups. Now, aside from Trump, as of this recording, others testing positive include Melania, Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway, Chris Christie, Trump's campaign manager, Bill Stepion,

his personal assistant, Nick Luna, Republican Senators Mike Lee, Tom Tillis, and Ron Johnson, all tested positive. And it looks like the place where the virus was spread was the event celebrating the nomination of Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court. They were celebrating the nomination of a Supreme Court justice who would strike down the ACA

the only law protecting 20 million Americans' health coverage during the very pandemic that they themselves fell victim to. Like, I would say it's karma, but it's not. It's just basic cause and effect. It's a group of people who pretended that the virus didn't apply to them because they're Republicans and they believe in freedom and liberty and won't be told what to do. And so they congregated in close quarters and took zero precautions and they caught the virus. It's not karma.

It's just negligence and stupidity. By the way, that right there is why this pandemic is out of control in the first place. Because the people charged with actually running this country and the people screaming the loudest for it to open back up are the ones who couldn't manage to not congregate together and crawl all over each other. They just needed to throw themselves a super spreader parade to celebrate a pro-life judge who they hope will rule to strip health care away from 20 million Americans during a pandemic that's already killed 200,000 people, just like the rest of her pro-life party wants. And these are the people in charge. Meanwhile, I haven't left my house in seven months. Most of us

happen. We've missed school and weddings and birthdays and holidays, funerals. There is not one of you out there listening who hasn't missed something. You can't begin to count the number of sacrifices that Americans have made and continue to make. And this is why. Because a small number of irresponsible assholes hold super spreader events and prolong the virus for the rest of us who just want to be safe, who just want to be responsible, who want to do the right thing to protect everyone else. But hey, at least Amy Coney Barrett got her party, right? The fact is that while the attention right now is on Trump contracting the virus, the American people have been dealing with this for months. This isn't serious now that Trump contracted it. It's been serious since we lost

the first American in February. It's been serious every day since more than 210,000 Americans have died. It was serious when Trump was fomenting protests in Michigan and Minnesota and Virginia, causing cases to spike and putting everyone who came into contact with the newly infected people at risk. It's been dangerous for doctors and nurses and hospital staff who dealt with surges and cases caused by people opting to not wear masks because the president didn't. I get that he's sick and I might sound callous, but I've spoken before about how my mom and dad are both health care workers.

The amount of stress that I've endured, that I've endured, while they've continued to go to the hospital and to see patients and sick people in the middle of a pandemic, Their lives were in exponentially more danger because Donald Trump single-handedly exacerbated this crisis. So I'm sorry if I'm not overly sympathetic that he caught the virus that he himself failed to contain. Every single person who Donald Trump convinced not to wear a mask infected more people. Every person who Donald Trump convinced to protest stay-at-home orders infected more people. And those people spread it to others.

And there wasn't adequate testing to show it because that wasn't Trump's priority. there wasn't contact tracing because that wasn't Trump's priority. His behavior exploded this virus, and that put my family's lives at risk. So if you're looking for sympathy from me, you're not going to get it. I don't want Trump to die. I hope he recovers, honestly. I want him to live to see Joe Biden demolish him in this election. I want him to live to get indicted for his criminal behavior.

I want him to answer for his campaign finance violations and tax fraud. I don't want to see anyone die from this. But while he's in that hospital, I hope he realizes that it was his own gross mismanagement, his lies and obfuscations and downplaying that put millions of other Americans in the position that he's in right now. I don't want him to die, but I hope he realizes how responsible he is for the 210,000 Americans who did. He won't, but he should. We see it, though. The American people see it. And that's what matters.

And by the way, even Chris Wallace was pissed off. Here's Chris on Fox News after it became known that Trump may have already had coronavirus when he showed up at the debate that Wallace himself moderated. And if I could say one thing to all of the people out there watching, forget the politics. This is a public safety health issue. The president of the United States is in the most secure bubble in the world in the sense that everybody who comes in contact with him has to take a test. And he still got it. So wear the damn mask and follow the science. That's the key. Take away.

I think Chris Wallace finally realized the danger that his own network has done over the last seven months while they've been busy carrying water for Trump, whose mission it was to obfuscate the facts in the middle of a pandemic. And by the way, Wallace's anger here is justified because the White House is obviously withholding this information, but there's a really good chance that Trump was already infected on Tuesday night when he showed it for the debate. It was up to the campaigns to test the candidates. Why? Because for some reason, that I will never understand so long as I shall live, the debate commission decided to use the honor system with this White House. I arrived on Sunday. I think you arrived on Monday. They didn't arrive till Tuesday afternoon. So for them to get tested, there wouldn't have been enough time to have the test

and have the debate at 9 o'clock that night. They didn't show up until 3, 4, 5 o'clock in the afternoon. So, yeah, there was an honor system when it came to the people that came into the hall from the two campaigns. meaning that they simply trusted the White House to tell them whether Trump had been tested or not. I have seen more clips of Rudy Giuliani in drag than I have of Donald Trump wearing a mask. But they trusted this administration to just do the right thing when it came to the virus. Got it.

And so not only was Chris Wallace's life put in danger because of the Trump campaign's cavalier behavior, but Biden's was too. They stood 12 feet away from each other for an hour and a half while Trump. was belligerently screaming at Joe the entire time. He put Joe Biden's life in immediate danger. Biden's 77 years old. That could be a literal death sentence for him. And you know what Joe said when Trump announced that he tested positive?

I'd like to start by acknowledging, which I'm sure all of you do as well, sending my prayers for the health and safety of the First Lady and President of the United States after they tested positive for COVID-19. My wife, Jill and I prayed that they'll make a quick and full. recovery. This is not a matter of politics. It's a bracing reminder to all of us that we have to take

this virus seriously. He sent well wishes. That's it. He wished them well. Then his campaign stopped all negative ads for good measure. Meanwhile, that day, October 2nd, the Trump campaign ran ads on Facebook, accusing Biden of wearing an earpiece at the debate with a

doctored photo. That day. That's the difference between these candidates. For comparison, you know what Trump's said when Hillary Clinton got pneumonia on the campaign trail in 2016, he said this. But here's a woman. She's supposed to fight all of these different things. And she can't make it 15 feet to her car. Give me a break. Give me a break. Give me a break. She's home resting right now. She's getting ready for her next speech, which is going to be about 15 minutes and it's going to be in two or three days. Mocked her at a rally. So when you fast forward to today and

And you have Republicans right on cue, rediscovering their moral outrage and clutching their pearls that we're not all coming together as Americans to hope and pray for dear Donald Trump. It's because we don't even have to guess what he would do if the tables returned because we already have proof. We know what Donald Trump would do because he literally did it. And even now, his campaigns in the midst of attacking Joe Biden

while Trump's in his hospital bed. But you want to know the biggest difference between these two candidates? You want to boil it down to one moment? New reporting just came out that Joe Biden said he told some governors not to publicly endorse him because he worried that their states wouldn't get the support and resources from the federal government needed to fight the coronavirus outbreak. That's the difference. That's the difference.

Trump tried to withhold aid to California during the wildfires. He's threatened to withhold aid to New York. He's slow-walked aid to Puerto Rico after the hurricane. He constantly punishes blue states. and only relents if you can squeeze a compliment out of a governor, which he then turns around and creates a campaign ad out of. He does what he needs to do for his ego. Joe Biden did what he needed to do to protect people.

That's the difference. Switching gears, something I've heard a bit about was the conspiracy theory that Trump might not actually have coronavirus. And it goes like this. Trump came off a horrifying debate performance. The New York Times exposed him for paying basically nothing in taxes. his polling's in the toilet, Biden's surging. So Trump concocks this plan where he announces he has coronavirus.

The angry tone toward him softens. People become sympathetic toward him. He lays low. After a few days, he emerges, cured, totally healthy because, of course, he's genetically superior, announces he took hydroxychloroquine and he was right all along. It's a miracle. Biden was wrong. He's owned by China.

Trump wins re-election. I don't buy it for a second. Announcing that you contracted the virus that you failed to continue. contain is no winning strategy any way you cut it. And if the debate is any indication, Trump will do anything to make sure we don't talk about coronavirus. So saying that you contracted it doesn't make any sense. Also, for what?

To get the attention off his scandals by instead putting it on his biggest scandal, which is his failure to contain the virus? Usually if you're trying to distract people, you don't do it by elevating your biggest screw up in office. Keep in mind, too, Trump thinks being sick is a sign of weakness. That's why he puts so much energy into trying to convince us that when it comes to genetic superiority, it's just him and Dwayne Johnson and then the rest of us. He had a doctor say he'd live to 200. He is not going to subject himself to Walter Reed for fun.

So, look, no, this isn't some grand conspiracy to get Trump reelected. Trump contracted this virus because despite trying to will into existence, his own. alternate reality. The virus is real. It's contagious. It's not going to disappear like a miracle and he was reckless. Add that to the fact that he's 74 years old. He's obese. He's got high blood pressure, high cholesterol, survives off a diet of McDonald's and ice cream. Things that exercise is bad for you and you have the perfect storm to get sick. And that's exactly what happened. Him catching a virus that he allowed to spread is already damning enough on its own. I really don't think we need to look for conspiracy theories to make it worse.

But there is an unlikely scenario that I do want to address, which is, what if something happens to Trump? What if he gets too sick to continue serving? What if he dies? What happens to the election? So some of it's straightforward, some less so. But here's what we know. If Trump gets too sick to continue serving as president, the 25th Amendment offers two routes to transfer power. One of them, Section 3, which is that Trump himself can transfer power to the vice president through a written declaration, making Pence the acting president.

The other, Section 4, is if the vice president and a majority of his cabinet decide that Trump is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, at which point Pence would immediately become acting president. And that's whether Trump is incapacitated or not. They could make that determination. Now, with regard to the election, if something happens and Trump can't run, well, then it's less clear. So the RNC would have to convene its 168 national members and they'd have to produce a new nominee.

but even if and when they do, because in most states the ballots were already printed and voting's already started, a new nominee wouldn't even make it out to the ballot, meaning that it would fall to each of the 50 states to decide how to proceed from here. Most states don't have laws governing what to do in this type of situation, so this might be unsatisfying as an answer, but there is no firm answer here. To be honest, it would most likely all end up in the courts and it would be nightmarish, to say the least. But here's the thing.

It shouldn't even get anywhere close to that point. The fact is that Trump has created such an egregiously dangerous environment that it's no wonder he himself got it. He created the perfect conditions to spread this thing. He fostered a nationwide petri dish that even he, as the most protected person on the face of the earth, couldn't avoid. And the cost of his actions isn't just financial. It's not just seating our leadership in the international community.

We are paying with the lives of our families and friends and coworkers and neighbors. We're paying because one man put his own re-election strategy above the safety of 350 million people. The point here is that this administration and the Republican Party more broadly is a living monument to their own mismanagement. They can't keep you safe. They can't even keep themselves safe. So keep that in mind when you're filling out your ballot. Next up is my interview with Mary Trump. She's not only been in the news for her new lawsuit against her uncle,

but in light of what seems like a number of desperate actions by the president, she's able to break down why he's doing what he's doing in a way that no one else can. Okay, so today we have Mary Trump, clinical psychologist, author of the new book Too Much and Never Enough, and the niece of Donald Trump. Mary, thanks so much for coming on. Oh, it's great to be here, Brian. So obviously, where would we begin other than with the fact that

Donald Trump tested positive for coronavirus. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, but generally speaking, could there be a more damning indictment of his reckless behavior than contracting the very virus that he's been downplaying with 30 days to go before the election? Well, it's certainly up there with the, in excess of 200,000 people dead who shouldn't be because he didn't take this virus seriously. You know, this is a really dark, dark. moment. Not because this was inevitable, because it was. I'm a little surprised by how many people are surprised. You know, to me, the only shocking thing was that it took so long for somebody in his inner circle or him to contract the virus considering how incredibly irresponsible they've

been. But that's their problem, right? Their adults, if they want to choose, I mean, I understand why Donald does what he does, but if the people in his inner circle feel that it's more important to prop up his ego and a lie for him and put their own lives at risk, what are you going to do? That's entirely their problem. What's our problem, however, is the countless numbers of people they have endangered through this willful recklessness. I mean, we can no longer say that this is unfortunate, that this is a mistake, that this was careless, or that people died because of inaction. This is willful at this point. And from everything I'm hearing, it sounds like this was covered up. And man, there had better be some major accountability

coming. You know, building on that, I know that people are focused on Donald, but really the only people I'm thinking about right now are the people whose lives were shattered because of a virus that the president failed to contain. You know, the fact is that Trump had the luxury of the science being right in front of him. He has the luxury of top public health experts. He has the luxury of living inside the world's safest bubble. That he got it anyway was the result of his own recklessness. But just about everyone else didn't have that luxury.

You know, lives were lost because people believed him when he downplayed it. People believed him when he talked about injecting disinfectant and a vaccine being ready in two weeks. and that masks didn't help and that you should go back to work and school and his rallies. You know, I'm reserving my sympathy for the people who were impacted through no fault of their own. As am I, there's only one small thing I would change. He didn't fail. He succeeded in doing what he wanted to do, which was downplayed the virus, pretend it wasn't an issue, and convince his followers to listen to him and nobody else.

So, you know, obviously, I have very different beliefs from most of the people who still support Donald, but you can't blame them for listening to the person they voted for and who runs the country. And I also think about the countless numbers of people who work in the White House as housekeepers, as secretaries, as waiters, as waiters, as Secret Service. I think about just the breathtaking and criminal willfulness here. So, and the other thing, too, is, you know, we don't know how sick he is or if he's even going to get very sick. But in the event that that happens, he has at his disposal the absolute best health care on this planet. And he's trying to take it away from everybody else in this country. He, in the debate, he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about when he, when Joe Biden said that there are 100 million people in this country with preexisting conditions, Donald contradicted him. So he doesn't even know what he's talking about. So yeah, sorry, I'm rambling. I'm angry. No, I think that's justified. You know, the irony of this is that the Republicans who've contracted this virus thus far. It's Donald and Melania, Hope Hicks, Mike Lee, Ronna McDaniel Romney. They all contracted this virus at an event, celebrating. the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice, Amy Coney Barrett, who would strike down the ACA,

the only law protecting 20 million Americans health coverage during the very pandemic that they themselves fell victim to. You know, I mean, there couldn't be a more carmic response than what we're seeing right now. Yeah, with the exception of all of the innocent people who are going to get sick and some of them are going to die because of their just cynicism and callousness and arrogance, quite frankly, because these people know, they're not idiots. They understand science. You know, Amy Coney-Barritt, she understands science. Mike Lee, well, I'm not sure about Mike Lee,

but they understand how viruses work. So what is going on that they are so willing to put themselves at risk? Because clearly they don't care about anybody else, but do they not care about themselves? It's astonishing. Yeah. Okay, so let's jump over to the debates. This was alluded to at the debate and a number of times prior, when asked if he'd concede

if he lost, he basically signaled that he won't, right? He said he'd concede so long as it's fair, but he's already saying it's not fair. So based on what you know about him, will Donald Trump concede if he loses this race? He most likely wouldn't, but what I would say about that is, who cares? It's not up to him. He doesn't decide the election. So, you know, if he wants to have temper tant from him about it, that's his problem. doesn't change the fact that he has to get himself and his family out of the White House on

January 20th. That's not what worries me. What worries me is what you just alluded to that he's already cheating by saying things like it's rigged. Mail and voting is a fraud, even though it's exactly the same thing as absentee voting. He's cheating by undermining the efficiency of the post office by putting hacks like Louis de Joy in place. And he's cheating by you know, accusing Vice President Biden of rigging an election that, you know, he pretty much doesn't have anything to do with. So along with Chris Wallace, Donald seems to be convinced that Joe Biden is currently the president, which would be great, by the way. But it's not true. So, you know, going further into that debate, it basically devolved into what the entire country

agreed was a, and I'll use the legal term here, a dumpster fire. So what we saw from from Donald Trump was someone incapable of controlling himself. You know, there was a physical incapability to not say words and interrupt and bark at anyone with an earshot. So, you know, afterwards we heard a lot of journalists and pundits talking about whether his strategy worked. Is what we saw from Donald Trump a strategy, or is it him just being a belligerent Donald Trump with zero thought to anything beyond just, you know, impulsive reactionism? I continue to be amazed that that anybody gives him credit for being a strategic thinker or a thinker of any kind.

I mean, what I would say is that Donald knew going into this debate even before the New York Times article hit, that he could not allow it to be about policy or anything of substance because he has not, his record is horrible across the board. So that's why he used the tactic of interrupting and changing the subject and attacking Vice President Biden and his family, because in addition to everything else, Donald's also a hypocrite. So the New York Times story, however, changed the calculus a little bit. well actually let me rephrase that because that that suggests that there was thoughtful preparation the new york times story freaked him out so badly that he couldn't manage his chosen tactic and as you said just devolved into this you know flame throwing yeah pouting it was embarrassing for him but it was demeaning to the rest of the country. And it felt abusive to me.

Yeah, exactly. That's a really good way to put it. And I haven't heard it put that way before. I do want to touch on something that you brought up. And that is the attacks on Joe Biden, personal attacks on Joe Biden. So, you know, there was a point where Joe gave a really heartfelt tribute to his late son, Bo. And Donald Trump's response was, well, I don't know, Bo, but Hunter is a Coke addict who was kicked out of the military. So Donald Trump, man on this idea that he was greedy, but he's going to be greedy for all Americans. You know, that, that, uh, that, that, uh, that, you know, that he's an asshole, sure, but he's going to be our asshole for all Americans, that, that whatever unseemly traits that he had, Americans may not

like it, but, but, but hey, now you can use them, you know, to your advantage. But what happened in the debate, what, what we saw was just evil with no upside, like a dismissal of the death of someone's son. Um, it was mocking addiction, you know, which countless Americans and, and, and, and their families have to deal with, especially with the opioid epidemic. So this isn't him just, you know, this isn't a matter of him having bad qualities, but, but hey, at least it'll benefit us. This is him having bad qualities that are just disgusting with no upside. So do you think people will be able to recognize that in his performance in this debate? Like, will the curtain be lifted for people who, who realize that we actually derive no benefit from this?

If they, they should. Yeah, of course they should. Will they? I don't know. We're going to spend a long time if we survived this figuring out what went wrong with a significant minority of people in this country. Yeah, there's so much, there was so much going on that I was like most people quite despairing after the debate because it was demoralizing and painful. But David Korn wrote an article on Mother Jones that made a very good point. And he wrote that it may seem like we didn't get any information out of the debate, but we did. We got to know who Joe Biden is and how he handles relentless personal attacks, and we got to see exactly who Donald is. And that's why for me, the most, I don't want to say important, but the most revelatory exchange in the debate

was the one you just mentioned. Obviously, the white supremacy thing is incredibly dangerous and disqualifying. The stuff about the election is dangerous and disqualifying. But on a personal level, that just showed how Donald Trump should not be allowed anywhere in polite society or anywhere outside of a prison. I mean, it just showed the man's character or lack thereof. And, you know, he also mocked people who go to state colleges. And, you know, the addiction thing was obviously personally pretty hard for me to take because my dad was an alcoholic and died at the age of 42. So the fact that Vice President Biden was able to pull himself together and not fling himself across the stage and, you know, give Donald what he deserved was shocking to me. I could never have

done it, but that he pivoted to talk about how Hunter had dealt with his problem and that he was in recovery and that Joe was proud of him made me think what would have happened if my dad had had a father like that and how devastating and cruel that instead he had a brother like Donald. Yeah. Yeah. Donald Trump's whole stick, and I think he tried to, I think the point of that exchange was to show that he's strong, right? But so much of what we see is him actually desperately overcompensating for the fact that he's weak. Like punching down on people of color and the LGBT community, immigrants and low-income folks, you know, these aren't signs of strength. Couttawing to strong men like Putin, Erdogan, MBS, Duterte, again, not signs of strength.

So would just calling out the fact that he's actually an ineffective, weak person, be the most effective attack against him, considering he's predicated his entire persona on trying to convince people of the opposite? Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. And I mean, the only, the only slight difference I have with you is that in that exchange, I don't think Donald was trying to be strong. I think he was trying to interrupt a moment that Vice President Biden would have owned, right? And it was it was a moment in which he panicked. He went into that debate with like four talking points slash attacks. And one of them was about Hunter.

And he just went after it at the most inappropriate moment he could have. If I were debating him every, I would use four words over and over again, weak, pathetic, ineffectual, incompetent. I would describe every action he's ever taken in those terms. I would describe him personally. in those terms. And I would never call him anything but Donald because he's done more to demean the office he holds than anybody in the history of this country. He does not deserve the respect it affords him. Really well said. So let's move on to you personally, you have a few days

ago you filed a lawsuit against Donald Trump and his siblings. Could you give a brief overview of the suit? Specifically, you know, there were three schemes that they undertook to basically squeeze you about receiving anything. Yeah, and what's really fascinating is that it turns out that a lot of the plays they made back in the 90s are very similar to the things this most recent New York Times report shows them engaging in, him engaging in now, like giving Ivanka enormous consulting fees. My grandfather did that with his four surviving children. You know, they created a fake corporation to siphon money away from an actual profitable business so that, you know, my aunts and uncles will get this money under the table and not pay taxes on it.

So the scam has been the same for a long time. The lawsuit is about how they use that fake corporation in part to siphon money away from properties and a management company I inherited from my dad in 1981. or the half of that, because I have a brother. So by the time my grandfather died and we'd found out we'd been disinherited, in order to settle that lawsuit, they needed to buy us out of our share in those entities and devaluently devalued the properties to such an extent that, you know, I got a tiny fraction of what they were actually worth. But I didn't know that until that brilliant piece in the New York Times

that was published in 2018, which also should have ended this nightmare. But, you know, apparently it's going to take a lot more than one article. So anyway, that's the first time I became aware of what they'd done. And, you know, I just want my stolen property return to me. There was a moment where Donald Trump and his siblings used the threat of your brother's infant son as leverage. Can you talk about that? It was pretty simple and effective. We, all of us, had had excellent health care through my grandfather's company since birth, all of my aunts and uncles, my parents, all of the grandchildren.

So when we had children, our children would also have it. would be on our policies. And my nephew was very ill when he was an infant. And after we filed this lawsuit about my grandfather's estate, which was about five or six months after he died, they retaliated by canceling all of our health insurance, even though my nephew still needed run the clock care. I mean, the fact that they'll use health care as a cudgel to, to to squeeze you know, you, to squeeze you out of the family business. Like, it says something about how Donald Trump views health care and, and gives some insight into this situation that we're in right now with this pandemic. You know, like, health care is not something that he cares about. It's,

it's transactional, right? I mean, and even in a situation now where we're seeing 200,000, we've seen 200,000 Americans die, a thousand Americans dying a day. And the fact that that's still not his priority, kind of, you know, it goes to show that the same strategies that he's used his entire life he continues to use now. And the same strategies that he's employed to, you know, to benefit or conversely hurt his family as far back as decades ago, he's still using today in 2020. Yeah, it's a very disturbing pattern. And it's less that he doesn't care about health care. It's that he believes it's a weapon to wield. And he did the same thing with PPE and ventilators at the beginning of COVID. When he said in the debates that even Democratic governors praised him

for his handling of COVID-19 that may be true to some extent, but they did it because if they hadn't, he would have withheld the necessary equipment that was keeping our first responders alive and was helping keep COVID patients alive because he has no empathy. He is a petty, selfish, cruel man. And whatever he can use is leverage over somebody

he considers an enemy, or, and by the way, an enemy is anybody who doesn't praise him and think he's the best thing that ever happened and who doesn't support him, he'll do whatever, whatever it takes, which is why we need to go into this election with our eyes wide open. And I totally agree. And as soon as I heard him say that, I, you know, my immediate thoughts go to, you know, people like Gavin Newsom, for example. And Gavin Newsom and Donald Trump are diametrically opposed on every issue. There is a reason, though, why Gavin Newsom compliments Trump when he needs to. It's not because he likes him. It's not because he thinks is effective. It's simply because he knows that the only way to get through to this president,

the only way to get federal aid, for example, when we're dealing with wildfires out here in California, is to compliment the guy. I mean, you could, you know, there's a reason that he's, that he's, that he's friendly with the world's, you know, most dangerous autocrats is because they know how to play him, because it's not difficult. Of course. And it's, it's embarrassing, but it's also deeply dangerous because he's so easy to manipulate. I mean, we, we, we, we We have somebody like Vladimir Putin who's like an ex-KGB operative who, if he needed to, can manipulate the world's most difficult mind to get into. And instead, all he needs to do is tell Donald Trump that, you know, that his hair looks good.

Yeah, it's that simple. And it's a testament to how thoroughly my grandfather destroyed yet another one of his sons. Because essentially what my grandfather did was render Donald eminently useful. to smarter, more powerful men. And that's most men, I have to say. So, you know, anybody without a conscience or anybody who's desperate, like Newsom, like Cuomo in New York,

when, you know, we were suffering so horribly, we'll do whatever it takes. And, you know, in the case of the governors, it's to help save people's lives. In the case of people like Putin and Erdogan and Duterte and Kim Jong-un, et cetera, et cetera, It's to weaken this country, which has happened at an alarming rate. Thank you, elected Republicans.

It's made us less safe and it's strengthened Russia. And I don't know. I guess I'm not surprised anymore, but it is breathtaking just how many people are willing to enable this and go along for the ride and just watch our country unravel and do nothing to stop it. So let's speak about the taxes, the New York Times tax story that you spoke about. The New York Times, you know, revealed that Donald Trump paid $750 in taxes in 2016 and 2017, zero in taxes in 10 of the 15 years prior. They shed light on an audit battle with the IRS over disputed $72.9 million tax refund that he claimed. What was your reaction to this?

Was this kind of thing common knowledge within the family? Is it closely guarded within the family? Well, these are all strategies. My grandfather's been engaged in since his children were toddlers, you know. He was one of the cheapest people who ever lived. And although the vast bulk of his wealth was based on government funding and government grants, he hated paying taxes more than anything. And he passed that down in spades to Donald, you know.

So not surprising, but that article is so important on what I think are three levels. First of all, I don't know who came up with the number $750, but it's an infinitely more effective number than zero. Because people hear zero, they think accounting magic or whatever. $750 is an amount of money people can relate to it. You know, it's what they have to pay, you know, it's half of their rent or it's, it's three months of a car payment or whatever the case may be. And that really resonated. I think it's the least important part of the story, but if it helps people understand just how craven and cheap Donald is, I think it's a good thing. The other thing that those numbers show us, which is more

important is how horrible our tax system is. The fact that it's just infuriated because what the $72.9 million, he applied for because there were a couple of years where he actually made money, which is shocking. That's like really the only shocking thing in the article. So for the first time, in a long time, he had to pay taxes. And it was over a three-year period or anything, something. It was $72.9 million. And then he asked for it back. plus interest. And he got it. Why? So we need to answer that question, but much more importantly, the $400 plus million in debt that's coming due in the next two to four years that renders Donald the greatest national security threat to this country ever. And that's a really good point.

The federal government doesn't grant security clearances to people who have debt for exactly that reason. Depending on who owns that debt when it comes due, can absolutely impact how Donald Trump acts as president. You know what I mean? Like if Russia, for example, owns that debt, Donald Trump might be less inclined to retaliate in the event that they, oh, I don't know, interfered in our election or placed bounties on our soldiers' heads. I mean, this is the kind of behavior we're seeing right now. And these are the questions we need to be asking. Of course. Why would any person in his position randomly withdraw troops from Germany. What tactical advantage is there in that?

The only advantage is to Russia. So obviously there's a lot going on behind the scenes, and you're right, it's probably already happening that his debt is being leveraged to get him to behave in particular ways that benefit his debtors. I think it's another instance, too, of how damaged our system is. The only person in the United States government who does not need to pass a security clearance is the person in the Oval Office.

That's insane. I get the point. It's because the American people need to be able to choose. So then I would say candidates have to pass a security clearance, just as candidates have to release their tax returns. And I'm sorry, this stuff needs to be codified because too much can go wrong as we've seen. Like, everything can go wrong. Yeah. So let's move on to yourself, you know, as a clinical psychologist.

So completely separating yourself as his niece, what's your professional diagnosis here? And does he believe the lies he tells? Like, he says things like he never said the thing about nuking a hurricane. That just happened at the debate. There's literal video footage of it. And he does it on a constant basis where something that happened moments ago or days ago that's on camera, that the whole world saw, he says, no, it wasn't me. I mean, does he believe these things when they leave his lips?

First, as far as the diagnosis goes, I can't diagnose him simply because it's a very technical process and requires data that one can't get from simply observation. However, that having been said, I think at this point, a diagnosis is irrelevant. We need to look at his behavior, which is deeply pathological. He's a deeply psychologically disordered person. And he's harming this country and the people in it every day he's in office. As for his lying, it's sort of learned behavior in the sense that Donald has never been challenged before. Whatever he said, it was printed as fact.

I'm talking about the late 70s, 80s, 90s. No pushback, no follow up. This even happened during the 2016 election, which was infuriate. So he just gets a way of saying stuff. And now that's not being allowed to happen to the same degree. Although, of course, there should be much more pushback and follow up than there is. But when he says something like New Curricains, he's saying that because he doesn't know anything. And then here's the blowback from something like that.

And then the next time he's confronted with it, he'll lie and say he never said it because he knows it was a bad thing to say. just as he's now saying that he was being sarcastic when he told people to drink bleach, which he was not being sarcastic because he has no sense of humor and he doesn't understand sarcasm, but somebody told him to clean it up that way, right? Yeah.

But over time, he actually gaslights himself and does come to believe these things, which is why sometimes he says, he lies with such authority because he's not lying anymore. He's literally the only person I know who gaslights himself. Yeah. And you can kind of tell if you, if you look at the progression from the original

lie, which it's so obvious, he's lying and knows he's lying, to when he's like, no, I never said that. He actually, I think, believes it. It's quite dangerous and terrifying. You know, it's telling too, because a lot of times we ask ourselves, when he tells these egregious lies, we say, like, you know, who can be dumb enough to fall for this? And apparently the answer is Donald Trump. Yes. Well, yeah. Because, you know, regardless of what his IQ is, I don't know, I don't think he's a particularly

bright person. But, you know, he's not a total moron. He is capable at times, you know, if you think about the 2016 debates, he held it together and he, you know, memorized what he needed to memorize. Yeah. And he is on occasion able to do that. the least intellectually curious person, I know. And that presents its own dangers. Donald Trump's president has become a cloud over all of us. You know, it's impossible to escape from

him, you know, because he's so needy and desperate for attention that rarely does a day go by where he doesn't impact our lives. And we're just regular people, but you're his niece. So I'm curious what it's like in terms of the dominating force that is Donald Trump on someone who actually shares the same last name as him. Like, what does it like to hear your last name all day every day? It's awful. I'm handling it better now, but for the first few months, it was just brutal. I have PTSD, not from anything.

It has nothing to do with my family, but I have PTSD. And, you know, one of the worst things for me is to feel trapped. So I was feeling very trapped. And hearing my name dozens of times a day, because it's my name, you know, and I've become able to distinguish now between people referring to him because, you know, certainly at time nobody was referring to me, but it took a while to get there. Plus, also seeing his face all the time, it was really, really difficult. But now it's just deeply unpleasant, and I still do have those moments.

It doesn't happen every day like it used to, but I do still have those moments where I just feel this horror that he is in the position he's in and that so many people thought that that was okay. It's wounding, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, I can say that, you know, even in what is to say the least an unambiable position that you're in, I think you've done a great job, you know, not allowing yourself to be defined by the the creeping influence of Donald Trump. Hasn't been easy, but thank you. With regard to you having come out against him so full-throatedly, especially with this

book, did you receive any threats or anything like that? No, but I was prepared for them. And it's a sign of the times that I'm actually a shock that I haven't received any threats, you know, because everybody else does. Yeah. So I actually thought that being his niece would make it work. for me. But maybe it protects me. Like maybe even the craziest of his followers aren't willing to cross that line. I'm not really sure, but I feel quite lucky. Yeah. I mean, I'm not letting my guard down,

but I still feel it's definitely surprising that I'm not getting threats of any kind. And so final question is, what have you been doing now in the final month, in the final month, final push that we have until the election, where are you focusing your energy? In the last few weeks, I'm continuing to sound the alarm wherever and whenever I can about Donald's deteriorating mental health and his sickness. He's a very sick man and people need to understand that. He's never going to get better and he's only going to get worse because his psychological disorders are untreated. So there's that. But I'm also doing fundraising for PACs and candidates from like assembly on up because I think Democrats need to focus

on local races in a way they haven't before. I mean, I think they started to in 2018, which was really hardening. And we need to continue that trend because unless and until we start taking over state legislatures, state-wide races, you know, it's going to be a much longer, harder slog. So that's pretty much, you know, anybody who thinks I could be helpful or be of use in any way, you know, I'm trying to support them. Great. Well, Mary Trump, thank you so much for taking the time to talk. I really appreciate it.

Thanks so much, Brian. Thanks again to Mary Trump. Again, don't forget to check us both out again on Wednesday, October 7th on my YouTube channel at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific before the VP debate debate. Go to my YouTube page and click set reminder next to the VP debate video at the top of the page. Also, please remember to visit VoteSaveamerica.com. We are now starting to hit voter registration deadlines. So please, register to vote if you haven't done so yet

and verify your registration if you have. You can also find out any other information you need. It's the best one-shop stop we have for all things voting. I'll add a link to Vote Save America in the episode notes, so take a few minutes and check it out. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next time. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie,

interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe in your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels.