No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - MORE Fox hosts on the chopping block after Tucker's firing

Episode Date: April 30, 2023

Tucker's firing has an unintended consequence for OTHER hosts. Brian interviews the president and CEO of Media Matters, Angelo Carusone, about the cause of Tucker’s firing, Fox’s long-term financial viability, and how to help ensure that Fox doesn’t come back from this.Unfoxmycablebox.comNofoxfee.comShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today, we're going to talk about the future of Fox News amid Tucker Carlson's firing, and I interviewed the president and CEO of Media Matters, Angelo Carousone, about the cause of Tucker's firing, Fox's long-term financial viability, and how to help ensure that Fox doesn't come back from this. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So it looks like Tucker's firing from Fox News is having an unintended consequence of striking fear in the hearts of other Fox hosts. So according to reporting from Rolling Stone, both Maria Barteromo and Janine Piro,

Judge Janine have told friends that they're concerned that they could be fired next. Rolling Stone sources say that executives have recently held high-level discussions about Maria Barter Romo's future there, considering she was a key player in propping up Trump's conspiracy theories about the election and Dominion voting systems. Fox execs are also reportedly grilling staff about whether they've leaked information about Tucker's firing to the press, and that's prompting Fox's staff to change the names of reporters in their phone so that they're not caught leaking information to the media. And I got to say, I hope that these Fox hosts are enjoying the same culture of fear that they have been thrusting onto their viewers for years.

It's like, this is like Fox's very own migrant caravan happening on a daily basis, and it could not be happening to more deserving people. But I do want to talk about the implications of Tucker's firing for a moment, because I know that there are people who are worried about what Tucker might do next, and could it be even more dangerous? could he reach more people. But I think what's becoming pretty clear is that Tucker needs Fox a hell of a lot more than Fox needs Tucker. And look, yes, Tucker was their biggest star and his departure resulted in more than a million fewer eyeballs on the network, which is a big deal.

But two things here. First off, let's not get it twisted here. Fox was not relying on Tucker to survive. There's still a massive benefit in being the biggest conservative news outlet in the country. There's still a benefit to having every TV in the military and doctor's offices and airports all tuned to Fox. So, yes, there is a backlash. It will subside to some degree

because it's not like there's some void of other Fox hosts prepared to spew a steady stream of bigotry on a daily basis. So that one is common sense. But here's the second reason why I think that Tucker needs Fox more than Fox needs Tucker. This was a bit of Tucker's response in the aftermath of his firing

that he posted onto Twitter. One of the first things you realize when you step outside the noise for a few days is how many genuinely nice people there are in this country, kind and decent people, people who really care about what's true and a bunch of hilarious people also, a lot of those. It's got to be the majority of the population, even now.

So that's heartening. The other thing you notice when you take a little time off is how unbelievably stupid most of the debates you see on television are. They're completely irrelevant. They mean nothing. In five years, we won't even remember that we had them. Trust me, as someone who's participated.

And yet at the same time, and this is the amazing thing, the undeniably big topics, the ones that will define our future, get virtually no discussion at all. War, civil liberties, emerging science, demographic change, corporate power, natural resources. When was the last time you heard a legitimate debate about any of those issues? It's been a long time. Debates like that are not permitted in American media. Both political parties and their donors have reached consensus on what benefits them, and they actively collude to shut down any conversation about it. Suddenly, the United States looks very much like a one-party state.

That's a depressing realization, but it's not permanent. Our current orthodoxies won't last. Their brain dead. Nobody actually believes them. Hardly anyone's life is improved by them. This moment is too inherently ridiculous to continue, and so it won't. The people in charge know this, that's why they're hysterical and aggressive. They're afraid.

They've given up persuasion. They're resorting to force. But it won't work. When honest people say what's true, calmly and without embarrassment, they become powerful. At the same time, the liars who've been trying to silence them shrink, and they become weaker. That's the iron law of the universe. things prevail. Where can you still find Americans saying true things? There aren't many places left, but there are some, and that's enough. As long as you can hear the words, there is hope.

See you soon. Sure was a lot of words, but notice that Tucker, free thinker Tucker, won't be muzzled by anyone, Tucker, never managed to utter the words Fox or Rupert Murdoch. And that may very well be owed to the fact that he is afraid of them. There's been reporting from Rolling Stone that Fox executives had compiled an oppo file, opposition research file of supposed dirt on Tucker Carlson, which includes internal complaints regarding workplace conduct, disparaging comments that he made about management and colleagues, and allegations that he created a toxic work environment. So is he afraid of something in that file getting leaked?

I don't know, but I will say it certainly is weird that the self-proclaimed champion of free speech never managed to say the word Fox in response to being unceremoniously fired by Fox, all of which is to say, if Tucker knew that he had the upper hand, like if he felt that he was prepared to go scorched earth against Fox, he probably would have. The guy has spent God knows how many years attacking anything in eye shot. And yet, suddenly now we're supposed to believe that he can't find his tongue, he had a prime time slot on the biggest right-wing network.

Some of those fans are loyal to him, of course, but I'll bet a hell of a lot more of there because it was being fed to them by virtue of the network, the size of that network, and the time that he was on. And Fox will undoubtedly find some new, aggrieved white man to take his spot and scare the shit out of old people. And Tucker suddenly won't seem so large. I think he knows that. And just one more note on Tucker's little video response. First of all, I know you can't see it because this is a podcast,

but he was in this little home studio that was built for Fox Nation, their streaming service. Dude had to stick himself in whatever corner of that studio he could find that wasn't branded with Fox's name. So that part was pretty sad. But more importantly, it was this line right to. here that stuck out at me. The other thing you notice when you take a little time off is how unbelievably stupid most of the debates you see on television are. They're completely irrelevant.

They mean nothing. In five years, we won't even remember that we had them. Trust me, as someone who's participated. How unbelievably stupid most of the debates you see on television are. And to his credit, he owns up to this in some modest degree saying, trust me, as someone who's participated, which is a gentle way of fessing up to the fact that this guy, has almost unilaterally introduced more hateful garbage and bigotry and faux outrage into the new cycle than maybe anyone else on the planet.

Like, this is the guy who introduced the Great Replacement Theory into the mainstream, that Democrats are trying to change the demographics of the country to take power politically. He said that immigration makes America poorer and dirtier. He called the COVID vaccine the deadliest mass vaccination event in modern history. And it's not just the dangerous stuff. It's also really, really fucking stupid stuff, too. The green Eminem, you will notice, is not. She's no longer wearing sexy boots.

Now she's wearing sensible sneakers. Leading women do not wear sexy boots. Leading women wear frumpy shoes. The frumpy or the better. That's the rule. The other big change is that the brown M&M has, quote, transition from high stilettos to lower block heels. Also less sexy.

That's progress. Eminem's will not be satisfied until every last cartoon character is deeply unappealing and totally androgynous. Until the moment you wouldn't want to have a drink with any one. one of them. That's the goal. When you're totally turned off, we've achieved equity. They've won. So when this newly enlightened Tucker complains about the low level of discourse in this country, I think he should probably take that up with Tucker. And let's be clear, none of this, none of this is to defend Fox. None of this is to say that Fox will be fine. You'll hear the

interview in a few moments with Angelo Carousone about how royally fucked Fox News is right now. But I don't want to miss the opportunity to also dance on the professional grave of the guy who did his part to almost unilaterally make this country a more dangerous and less tolerant place. Fox is weak right now, absolutely. But Tucker will almost assuredly never be as powerful as he was a week ago. And I am perfectly happy to take some solace in that. Next up is my interview with Angelo Carousone. Now you've got the president and CEO of Media Matters, Angelo Carousone.

Angelo, thanks for coming back on. Thanks for having me. So obviously the big story this week, Tucker Carlson was fired from Fox News. There is reporting that Tucker was let go because of this new lawsuit from senior producer, Abby Grossberg. There's also reporting that he was let go because of revelations contained within the Dominion lawsuit. What do you presume is the reason that Tucker was fired? So here's what I would say that there's not going to be a single reason that what ended up happening is the cost calculus no longer was worth it. So that changed over time.

And if you think about it, all these things sort of add up, right, which is that number one, he was uncontrolled. And that's an important factor when you think about Fox post the lawsuit. The other thing is that the text messages that were revealed, Fox knew about most of this already. This was not a surprise to any of them. And so they knew that he was saying nasty things about colleagues and about management. It was pretty well known. He fought with them aggressively. So that wasn't a new revelation.

They claim that they saw revelations, and this is the most significant thing that they claim specifically, that they saw a text message in which he said something racist. And that was the first time that they heard or realized that Tucker Carlson said racist things. That is obviously a lie. They should probably watch Tucker Carlson's show. They should watch his show. Right. Exactly.

Like, that is clearly not the first. Like, yes, he did say something racist in a text messages that came out as a part of Dominion stuff. They claim that they didn't know about that until the day they gave a settlement offer to Dominion. That's clearly wrong. That's clearly wrong. So what do I think the reason is? I think the reason is that it's all of the above. It's the totality of circumstances.

says if you're Rupert Murdoch and you start to, you get, it becomes personal for you, Tucker gets put on your radar screen because of all the stuff with his that was reported about his fiance being a Tucker fan and then her saying that Tucker was a messenger from God. And that sort of like putting Tucker on her, his radar, I think that they realized that Tucker was uncontrollable. He was a liability. I do think the lawsuits were a factor, not because they're worried about the money or the punishment, but because what do you think, what that gets you is insight and discovery and negative stories. And if you have an avalanche of negative stories, Abby Grossberg, for example, says that she has 60 hours of recordings. That's a lot of

material from someone that if you drip, drip that out over the course of weeks or months, that could consume a storyline for Fox and it's a distraction. But I think ultimately at the end of the day for the Murdox, it's always about power and money. And the truth is, is that right this month, Fox is renegotiating their cable contracts, several of them. Tucker is the face, was the face of Fox News, he came up during the discussions with these cable providers because they just got done saying to one America news, hey, we're not going to pay for you anymore because of the extremism and the election lies. And Tucker is even worse than that. So cable companies like, wait, what about this Tucker guy? And that when you, you know, when you add it up, it's like,

do the Murdox want to give away their power to Tucker when they're also having trouble making money on them, which they, which has now been reported? So I think. think when you put it all together, it's like they needed a scapegoat. They obviously wouldn't have used him if he didn't have any costs and he just no longer worth the hassle. And that's typically when the Murdox let people go, when they're no longer worth the hassle anymore. Yeah, I think especially with Fox, I mean, their specialty in the right wing media ecosystem is to control and distort the narrative. And if they have another narrative that's kind of like the Tucker Carlson narrative that's undermining their ability to control the narrative, then really what

uses he for this network. So Angela, where do you think Tucker ends up after this? I think that he ends up on Rumble, which is a YouTube alternative. And the reason why I think that is because he actually couldn't go to YouTube. Most of his content would violate their terms of service. And so he would actually not be able to get very good distribution. I think that Rumble gives him an easy place to go that's ready made. He may do his own little like studio type thing, but I think ultimately he does it for himself and he's not a writer he's not like somebody that would have a substack or a subscription um what he needs is a platform and a consistent home and i'm sure he's getting offers i know he's getting offers from places like newsmax and others they he's never going to go

to those places though because their production quality according to him would be too low it would be too embarrassing he would never go to a place that had production quality like that and also he's at a moment right now where if he works for himself um he would do just fine in fact there was a series of text messages that came out of the Dominion stuff where he was talking with someone who was redacted so we don't know who the exchange was with but the person was giving him some math on how much money he could make on his own if he just had his own subscription service and so yeah I think he ends up at Rumble basically that's where that's where I think he goes okay yeah that's a fair guess I mean my guess was going to be you know he could either end up at a newsmax or an

OAN but for the same reason you said I mean it's kind of beneath him to go from like the biggest conservative network there is then to this to this red-headed stepchild of conservative media which is which is news max it's kind of where all the you know the the the leftovers the scraps from fox news and from previous scandals all around the right wing media ecosystem kind of end up there exactly and then the the alternative is is either he does become some iteration of an independent creator which is what you were referencing by virtual going on rumble or he could start his own network uh there's a lot of obviously heavy lifting and legwork involved with starting starting your own network. It may not be worth it when he can just, you know,

basically just hire a team, get a studio, and do his own thing and have a video out by Monday if he needed to. Exactly. And I think if he ever does do a network, it would be like a second step or a second phase where he's expanding. And, you know, one of the advantages of Tucker, and this is the thing to keep in mind because part of what makes this significant is not just, although this is what makes it enjoyable and there's the comeuppance, but what makes it significant that Tucker got fired is that his influence was massive, not just at Fox, but over the large right-wing media. And part of the reason why was not just how he did his show and what he did a show, but if you think about it, he was one of the few people in right-wing media that also

wasn't an active competitor of everybody else. Because if you're a Fox host and you're a big right-wing media person, you also have a podcast or a radio show. You have, you're competing for audiences in different mediums. And Tucker only had a TV show, which meant that he wasn't consuming radio audiences. He wasn't consuming podcast audiences. He only borrowed or took one hour of consumers time a day. So that meant that if you're another host or another, it's easy to think of Tucker not as only a competitor, right? And so in a way, he had a built-in advantage, and he's smart enough to understand that that gave him an advantage, that only being on TV one hour a day, you know, unlike, say Hannity, who's on TV, who does four to five hours of production

a day live. Like, that's a lot to be taught. You're consuming a lot of people's time. And I think Tucker realizes that as part of what gave him power was that he wasn't, that he could be, have that convening authority and that there wasn't always an incentive for other people to either ignore him or to attack him because they saw him largely as a competitor. And I think he's going to want to keep that advantage right now as he starts to rally and marshal, you know, the forces of sympathy and also the anti-Fox forces. Yeah. That's a great point about him not being, not having any adversarial relationship by virtue of presenting himself as a competitor on all of these other platforms. More broadly, how does this impact Fox's business? Because just in the days following

Tucker's firing viewership numbers for Fox Prime Time were down significantly. Yeah. So it affects their business in a couple ways. The first is that, as you noted, there's going to be a ratings hit. And the ratings hit is that even for a group of people that are not die-hard Tucker fans, they still assume that Fox is like a bastion of free speech that doesn't punish people. This is an example where there will be retaliation by Fox audience. And unlike in the past, say like when Glenn Beck got fired or even Bill O'Reilly, there are other places for them to go, digitally, podcast, streaming services, like they have alternatives and they will go there. When Fox made this decision, my understanding is that they assumed or made an assessment that their audience

would drop by approximately 10% solely by losing Tucker. I think the number is closer to 20 to 30 percent. So they're going to see that audience dip. That affects their business because if you lose your ratings, your advertiser rates go down. And that's going to be a second thing that affects them is that they're going to lose advertising revenue because their ratings will decline. And then the other way this is going to affect their business, and this is probably the most significant way, is that part of the strategy that they use when they're doing these contract renegotiations is they actually organize their audience. They say, hey, everybody, this cable company is about to take Fox News away from you.

So I need you to call the cable company. And you need to tell them to keep Fox. Right now, even if their audience is still watching, they're kind of mad at Fox. And so they're not going to do any favors for them. So that is the most significant thing because we recently learned how much Fox News was trying to increase prices. And just this month alone, the contracts that they're renewing, it's worth about a billion dollars a year extra to Fox News. In terms of the value of the contract, it's about $3.2 billion. And simply, just to put it simply, it's nearly impossible for Fox to be able to accomplish that

unless they had their audience fully intact and fully behind them. And right now, they don't have that. So the order of magnitude for Fox on a financial and business front is going to be very significant. And that's before we get into what happens if Tucker Carlson starts attacking them, what happens when other right-wing media start attacking them. So, for example, the Blaze, which is a Glenn Beck's network, they're running a promo. And if you use the promo code dump Fox, you get $20 off your subscription. And so, you know, you're starting to see a situation where you could conceivably see why others would poach and pick away at Fox.

So ultimately, at least out of the gate, putting aside anything else, the best case scenario for Fox is that they will end up losing somewhere between. And again, best case scenario is that their ratings will go down about 10% to 15% and they'll lose somewhere between $4 and $600 million of anticipated revenue a year. Yeah. And like you said, the more important part is that they lose a lot of their leverage in terms of negotiating these deals moving forward. So with that said, with regards to these deals, we know based on a lot of the work that you do and the interviews that you and I have had that Fox is pretty immune to fluctuations in ad revenue because they make most of their money in carriage fees.

So for those who don't know, can you just speak on what carriage fees are? Yeah, it's a fee that every cable, every TV channel, cable companies pay a certain amount to make sure that they can offer that channel to their subscribers. And that's where all those packages come in and the different levels. Fox News is in the basic cable package for every single cable company. So that means if you have cable, you have Fox News. And what that means is that everybody that has cable is paying. Fox News that specific fee.

And Fox is the second most expensive channel everybody's cable bill, ESPN's number one. And right now, that means that it's about $2.18 for everyone that has cable is giving Fox News that money. So that works out to be a few billion dollars a year for Fox. And they are renegotiating their packages right now to try to go from about $2.18 to $3.3. And that's a really big increase.

It would be worth about just these three companies that they're renegotiating with now are worth about a billion dollars extra a year just on this increase. So it's a really significant amount of money for them. And it was all designed so that they could actually have somebody like Tucker Carlson. When they were forced to fire Glenn Beck because their advertisers left, they devised this strategy of not just making all this extra money, but you have to think about cable revenue as guaranteed revenue. It means that you get that money, even if nobody's watching. And so for them, they don't care about advertisers.

They care about their audience because it helps them negotiate these things and it gives them political power. But ultimately, as long as they secure these deals, they will get that money no matter what. And that's what is so critical for them in this moment, are these renewals. So they're looking for a raise right now.

I guess what's the likelihood of A, of them getting a raise and B, of them even getting what they're asking for to begin with? If nothing had happened over the last couple months in terms of the cable organizing, they would have gotten a race. It would have been very likely. Maybe not the full amount that they wanted, but Fox has never lost a carriage fight until December.

They've never lost one of these negotiations. They lost their very first one right before Christmas of 2022. So I would have said that they would have likely gotten one. But the thing that is a difference maker is that, one, the cable companies have received thousands of phone calls from cable customers saying, hey, I don't want to pay any more money for Fox. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is that the Dominion litigation was a factor. And this is part of the reason why Fox felt the need to settle is that they would have literally

been in the courtroom on trial while also in the boardroom renegotiating these contracts the same time because they're up right now. So they had to make a decision. And that's $787 million they paid to Dominion. Yeah, that's a lot of money. we're talking about billions of dollars of guaranteed revenue just from these contracts. And so there, when you do that, when you weigh that, it's, you know, $780 million compared to what they were hoping to get as an increase, which was close to $3 billion.

It's not a very hard choice to make. And so that's the other factor. And I think the other piece to me that makes it unlikely that they're going to get it all is a very important piece of information. I didn't just say that they were increasing. I gave the number. And the reason that we know that they're trying to go to just a little over $3 is because somebody from the cable company who is in the negotiating room leaked what Fox was demanding.

That never happens. Like I want to emphasize that. This never happens during a negotiation. They never give the specific number. But someone felt that it was that because of the pressure they're getting publicly, that as a way to, I think, respond to that pressure and to also. also help rally more people and just to put it out there to show, hey, look how unreasonable Fox is doing. They leaked the number. And that I don't think, at least as far as I've been tracking this

for the last 10 years, that's never happened in cable contract renewals. And I think that what that signals to me is that the cable companies get it and that they are unwilling to go all the way to what Fox is hoping for. And so now what I think we have to try to do is make sure that Fox doesn't get any extra money. And if they do get, and hopefully even reduce it, and just to put a bow on it to show you why that matters, if Fox just stays the same price that they're at right now, even if they get, even if they're, and they're inflated, they're high, but even if they just stay at that price, they are no longer profitable in at best 14 months. Fox News has never not been profitable. And the idea that if they just stayed what they are, they no longer are a profitable company on paper in 14 months. months it would be a consequence of all this organizing i think it's very likely now as long as the momentum continues that the cable providers will not only will refuse to increase fox's rate at all and potentially reduce it in some situations okay so just as a quick aside on that point because i still want to talk about carriage fees and the work that you're doing and unfox my cable box but just as a

side note on that point you know i've read that fox's profits were last last year were 1.2 billion dollars if that's correct. The Dominion lawsuit more than cuts that in half in one fell swoop. We still have the Smartmatic lawsuit that's worth 33% more for $2.7 billion. Then there's the impending shareholder lawsuit because Fox breached its fiduciary duty to its shareholders by virtue of allowing this stuff to happen. Then there's the Abby Grossberg lawsuit that they're contending with right now. Is insolvency an actual concern for Fox or do they have tricks up their sleeve to basically keep themselves solvent even in the face of all of these lawsuits? They have a fairly large amount of liquid assets.

In fact, one of the things that the Murdox were planning to do was to make a really big media acquisition. I think that was going to be CNN. I think they were going to try to make – it would have been their third attempt to buy it, but I think they were hoping to go in with overwhelming cash. And so they've actually been stockpiling cash as a company for a while in anticipation of making a really big purchase. So they're sitting on a little more than $4.4 billion.

of an acquisition fund. Obviously, this would chip away from that a lot. And that's a big, that's a really big part of it. And so they have some leeway there. Now, of course, the shareholders don't, the shareholders will punish them severely for that. There are some other tricks. Like, their insurance will cover portions of these lawsuits, these settlements. And, you know, in some cases, they can write, they'll get a little bit of a tax break as well. But we shouldn't discount discount the money is real and the way i always thought about dominion uh was that it was the first in a cascade of consequences and that list you just gave that that's the cascade that you can sort of absorb one or two of these hits but it's just like it's kind of like a death by a thousand cuts and

i don't want to suggest that fox would just evaporate or disappear but what i think people have to really appreciate because this is the thing that that has always struck me is that part of the reason why Fox News has seemed so immune to any accountability is that they built a system of a company that is able to have these obscene profits and that is insulated from any of the traditional typical market forces because of how important these carriage fees are. And so if they're being drained on one end by they're having to do all these payouts, and then on the other end, they're not able to recoup those losses. what that forces them to do is say, wait a minute, we need to recalibrate and we need to start

making money from advertisers again. And if that's the case, their content necessarily would need to change. And as we saw with the Dominion stuff, their audience doesn't want their content to change. And in fact, their audience will punish them if their content changes. So they're really stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. And it's getting tighter and tighter. So do I think they'll go to insolvency? No, they have, because they have plenty of assets available to them and they can get liquid. What I do think is they can go to a point where they're no longer profitable and that would then require immediate changes to their business model. And since their business model is extremism and lies, that means you start

to weaken what is essentially their product. Right. Right. They basically lose the very thing that it is that they're selling. Yeah. So I'm sure that a lot of my viewers and listeners are cable subscribers here. So what can they do to help ensure that Fox isn't able to succeed in basically achieving these higher carriage fees? This is a great question, especially for your audience, because I've told you this probably and I'll say here, because I think this is so significant. We've been organizing this campaign now for a couple of years, waiting for this moment. And your audience has been the single highest conversion from promotion, discussion, to actually

going and signing up and then taking the subsequent action. And it's significant because all that stuff that I mentioned before, the pressure they're feeling, it's because when we've activated people, they've done stuff. and that's then created this actual moment where Fox could be held accountable. Like the rubber meets the road here and it's working. So what can people do? They can sign up on Foxx, my cable box, simple. And you just give your name, your cable company.

And when your renewal comes up, we will send you a message and tell you what to do about it. It's really simple. It's really easy. We're not going to bother you for donations. I'm not going to spam you. It's just an actual transaction there. If you don't have cable, but you know someone that does, that's what you should do. You should direct them there and tell them about it.

That is the answer. Your parents or family members, friends, like that is, that's the most important thing you can do. And then the second thing I would say is a very special message. If you have Comcast or Xfinity or Spectrum, Charter or Cox Cable. So Comcast, which is also Xfinity, Spectrum, Cox, Charter, if you have any of those, you should go to nofoxfee.com. And that will just give you very, very simple phone number and what you need to say when you call or the Facebook message that post, but phone calls are way better. Those are the ones

that Fox News is actually negotiating with right now. Those are the cable companies that are first up, and they will end up setting the stage. Part of the reason why that the Murdox and this felt pressure, and this has been some of the reporting as well, is that the Murdox were really thinking about their own control of the company. And the fact that they're getting a lot of pressure, too, it's like they need to start taking action to resease the narrative and to grab the reins. And And if they're walking into these rooms and they're already meeting resistance and then Tucker's name is coming up, part of the idea I think they had by letting go of Tucker, and there's a lot of reasons, was that it also served like a release valve, a pressure valve.

They just wanted to let a little bit of pressure out to maybe hope to assuage the concerns they were getting during these renegotiations. And so that's the answer. On Foxxmed Cable Box, you can sign up, you'll get the instructions there. And if you have Xfinity, Charter, Comcast, Spectrum, no FoxFeed. com will give you very specific instructions. Either way, it's the same site, just one's a little more general than the other. That's the most important thing you can do. And it works. It really matters, honestly. And I'll put those links in the post description as well so that people can find

them easily. But I would also just note that in the same way, the Dominion lawsuit set up a really dangerous situation for Fox moving forward in the Smartmatic lawsuit and their shareholder lawsuit in that way, if we're able to be successful in everybody coming together and calling these cable companies and preventing them from getting this increase that they're looking for, that will set Fox up for failure in subsequent negotiations. And they're all happening right now. So this is a really important moment right now for people to participate. I know if you've watched my content or listen to it, that you have probably a strong disdain for Fox News as I do. So this is the moment where we can finally actually do something about it

and ensure that Fox doesn't give themselves a raise here in the middle of all of these, you know, not only defamatory actions and whatnot, but also their efforts to, you know, undermine a free and fair election because God knows that if they were, if they're going to be able to have done it successfully in 2020 and 2022, then moving forward,

there's no doubt that they'll try it again in 2024 and beyond. And I just will give one more example that's even easier to understand because I about how like this has actually worked so people have been calling for a while and we've been organizing this and obviously your audience has been a huge part of it i'm saying hey on fox my cable box i don't want to pay for this at all i don't i don't want you to just hold the line i don't want to pay a penny well one cable company already actually said you know what fine i'll do that for you i will give you the ability not to have fox news in your package it just happened

the cable provider is spectrum and they said fine we will create a package that lets you take Fox out of your package. We'll give you a flat rate. You get 20 TV channels and you can exclude Fox News if you want. That is what happens when people actually do this work. And why that matters is that, you know, all these fights in the middle of negotiation are important. But then bigger picture, it's actually creating a scenario where people can start to craft their own cable packages. And it's sort of been a nice byproduct of all this. And that only would have happened if people were as relentlessly and aggressively contacting the cable companies as much as they have. And it's a really big moment.

And so it's a moment for Fox accountability. And it also, I think, will improve a lot of people's just general packages going forward simply by doing this. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And look, we can actually elicit some type of change here. This is it. This is like a really big moment here. It doesn't take long.

And it's worked. It already worked in one instance. And while Fox is going through all of these negotiations, it's basically guarantee that work again. Angela, let's finish off with this. This is, I think, objectively, a really bad moment for Fox. I think that that's beyond clear right now between these negotiations and these lawsuits and just the whole Tucker situation. What's just your reaction to these developments in light of what's happened? Because you spend so much time fighting against these assholes. So just taking a step back, 30,000 foot view, how does this barrage of news about Fox kind of leave you

feeling. So we're at a really we're at a pivot point. And we haven't had one of these since the late 90s. You know, talk radio, right wing talk radio and Fox News really became a thing in the 90s. And they changed not just our news media, but our politics, our culture. They made everything worse. And it's because they are engines of hate and lies and they profit off them. And they have made everything worse. And every since then, it's, there's never been in a moment to radically reshape it. You can't reshape talk radio. You couldn't reshape Fox News. You could maybe be like sandpaper and smooth off the edges, but you couldn't transform it.

And when I think about this moment, to your question, this is a moment where we're actually at a pivot point because the right-wing media, it's an echo chamber. And so what it gives it its power, its destructive power, is that it's able to take a narrative, a falsehood, a lie, an issue, hammer it away, reverberated through that right-wing echo chamber, and then it spills over and to get other coverage. It reshapes our culture. It reshapes news media right now without Fox because Fox really functions like a conductor for a chorus.

They have so much agenda setting power beyond their audience. Fox isn't the biggest talk radio is bigger than Fox. There are plenty of shows that are bigger than Fox, but Fox has the agenda setting power. And right now, the right-wing media is without a conductor. And so when I think about this moment, I think about the idea that, yeah, it is bloodthirsty. They're more bloodthirsty. they're scary they sort of seem worse than ever kind of frenzied but on the other hand they're vulnerable their destructive influence has been greatly weakened because of the fact that they don't function

like an echo chamber right now and fox is wobbling it is they are getting hit really hard we shouldn't kid ourselves like they're not it's not a foregone conclusion that they that they will just it's not just going to happen by itself that they evaporate they have a lot of stickiness and a lot of power and a lot of resources at their disposal they're on their heels though and so for me I look at this moment as like a chance to have a do-over of when talk radio and Fox News first poisoned our country. It doesn't fix everything overnight, but if we can prevent Fox from regaining its foothold as the center of gravity for the right-wing media for that right-wing echo chamber, then a lot of other things improve as a result of that. And so I look at this moment,

not just about sticking it to Fox, although that would be a lot of a motivator, but the actual thing that I'm thinking about is that we're at a pivot point. We definitely will not get another one of these for years. It's sort of like the pinata burst and everyone's playing musical chairs at the same time. The music stopped in this candle over the floor. Like it's a little chaotic, but eventually it's going to sort itself out. And I just want to make sure that on the other side of this, it's not sorting itself out in a way where Fox is more stable again, has found a new pathway forward to exercise the destructive power that it has for all of these years.

So that's how I look at the moment. It's actually a pivot point. Yeah, I think that's perfectly put. And yeah, it's, I mean, it's inspiring too in the sense that, you know, we have a rare instance right here where we can actually kind of make a difference here. And I think there's no doubt in terms of the destructiveness that Fox is in our entire media ecosystem. And so, you know, I'm looking forward to being able to get some of these calls going in and kind of block Fox from being able to give themselves a raise here. So with that said, Angelo, thank you for the work that you're doing and that everybody at Media Matters is doing. Appreciate it, and thanks for taking the time.

Your participation matters. Thanks so much. Thanks again to Angelo. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellsey, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app.

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