No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Republican extremists get what they deserve
Episode Date: April 9, 2023In the wake of the Nashville school shooting Republicans expel two state House Democrats for protesting alongside students. Brian interviews California Governor Gavin Newsom about his respons...e to Ron DeSantis’ authoritarian tactics and his new PAC seeking to bolster red state Democrats. And Brian is joined by Liz Shuler, president of the AFL-CIO, to discuss the major Senate hearing with former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz and the broader union movement in the U.S.Donate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Today we're going to talk about Tennessee Republicans expelling two black legislators
and the broader trend of fascist behavior by the right.
I interviewed California Governor Gavin Newsom about his response to Ron DeSantis' authoritarian tactics
and his new PAC seeking to bolster Red State Democrats.
And I'm joined by the president of the AFL-CIO, Liz Schuller,
to discuss the major Senate hearing with former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz
and the union movement in the U.S. more broadly.
I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie.
So this past week, Tennessee Republicans,
two of the three Democratic legislators who joined students protesting for gun reforms,
the two being the black Democrats, while miraculously the white Democrat was spared.
Like, the racism is just unmistakable.
I mean, seriously, we see racism all the time, but this one is one of those few instances
where it is so egregious, so pointed that it legitimately feels like something out of the
1950s.
Only the black Democrats were expelled.
The white one got to stay.
Like, it takes a lot to shock me.
This shocked me.
But I think what happened in Tennessee can be boiled down to this.
Republicans manage to ban black lawmakers from serving in their democratically elected positions
for speaking out on gun violence before they banned assault weapons after three kids got slaughtered in school.
If that is just not the most damning indictment of a legislative body that you've ever heard.
It's amazing what Republicans can do and the speed with which they can do it if they actually want to get something done.
Expell a couple black legislators, give them a single day.
But take some action, literally any action to curb gun,
violence after watching nine-year-olds get shot to death? Well, you see, now isn't the time to talk
about solutions. Now is the time to mourn until, of course, we're far enough away from the shooting
that there isn't any pressure to do anything anyway. In fact, it's not just that Tennessee Republicans
aren't taking action on gun violence. They're actively working to loosen gun laws. There's a bill
moving through the state senate right now that would lower the minimum age for carrying guns from 21 to
18. The House version of that bill would allow for the open or concealed carrying of any firearm,
not just handguns, AR-15s-2.
This is still in the process of being passed by Republicans
even after this shooting.
So if you're wondering what kind of people
would expel lawmakers for the crime of standing with students
who are protesting the inaction of legislators
while their classmates are getting slaughtered,
it's the kind of people who view their mandate here
as to actually make it easier for people to get their hands on guns.
Just utter insanity.
And look, what happened in Tennessee isn't surprising.
This is their playbook to a tee.
But the chilling part here is how this kind of behavior
isn't isolated to just one state's Republican party.
In Texas, Republicans introduced a bill to ban polling places on college campuses
because not enough students were voting for them.
In Wisconsin, Republicans have floated the idea of impeaching newly elected Supreme Court
Justice Janet Prasawitz.
In North Carolina, Republicans are looking to use their new supermajority to re-implement
a gerrymander that the state Supreme Court already ruled was unconstitutional.
Just abject fascism, a wholesale denial of democracy by a party that recognizes that their
only path to survival is by ensuring that the majority of voters aren't able to make their voices
heard. And that's the thing. Like, imagine taking all of these steps, all just to avoid adopting an
agenda that someone might want to, oh, I don't know, vote for? Imagine your principles, your platform
being so horrible, so unpopular. And you being so married to that platform that is horrible and
unpopular, that the only course of action here is just to ensure that you win because you cheated,
because you rig the system. Again, that is not democracy. It is fascism. And if you listen to this
podcast and you watch my videos, you know that I don't throw that word around because I don't want to
cheap in it, but we might as well call it what it is. And by the way, that agenda that they're rigging
the system in service of, here's just a small sampling from the last few days. In Idaho, Republicans
have passed a law preventing interstate travel for abortions. In Florida, DeSantis just loosened gun
restrictions and a closed-door bill signing. Obviously, none of it popular enough to pass with a majority,
and Republicans clearly know that,
which is why all of this happens
alongside their voter suppression efforts.
But here is the silver lining,
and there is a silver lining.
In Wisconsin, basically a 50-50 state,
a state that Democratic Governor Tony Evers won by a three-point margin,
and that Republican Senator Ron Johnson won by a one-point margin.
So truly, a toss-up state,
the liberal candidate for the state Supreme Court,
Janet Proto-Saywitz, won by 11 points last week.
Why?
Because abortion rights were on the ballot.
Because fair maps were on the ballot.
And apparently, a really good way,
to mobilize people in a democracy is by trying to strip that democracy away. And so now,
for the first time in 15 years, liberals control the court in Wisconsin, which may very well mean that
if and when we see new maps, liberals may control the entire state legislature in Wisconsin. And even better,
as far as this race is concerned, among students, their turnout was between 74% and 97% of general election
turnout. That means they virtually matched turnout for a spring state Supreme Court race. That's quite
literally unheard of. At the University of Wisconsin, Madison, that turnout was as high as 97%
of fall turnout. At UW O'Clair, turnout was 91% of fall turnout. U.W. Green Bay had 78% of
fall turnout. And in those precincts, Judge Janet, the Democrat, or the liberal candidate,
got 75 to 85% of the vote. Young people are turning out and they are voting for Democrats,
which, by the way, is why Republicans are trying their hardest to restrict voting on college
campuses. And that, I should note, is honestly the dumbest fucking thing I could think of because
guess what happens to college students after a few years? That's right, they graduate and they
leave that campus knowing that the only reason that their right to easily cast a ballot while
they were in school was stripped from them is because of Republicans. Like, talk about losing
the future. In fact, here's former Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker identifying that young voters are
the problem, and here's the excuse that he gives. A larger issue here, we've seen it predict in Wisconsin
but across the country, is younger voters.
In Wisconsin, last fall, we saw about a 40-point margin that younger voters gave to the Democrats
running for Senate and governor.
We saw similar margins in Pennsylvania.
Part of the reason why you have John Federman in the U.S. Senate in Arizona and Georgia and elsewhere.
And just this week in Wisconsin, we don't yet know the numbers by age, but we do know that
Dane County, which is where the University of Wisconsin's flagship campus is at, about 50,000 students are enrolled.
there. Dane County cast more ballots in the race for the Supreme Court than the largest county
in the state, Milwaukee County. And in Dane County, 82% of those votes went for the radical. And so
unless we turn young people around, and it's not as simple as one campaign ad or some sort of a
coalition, this is years of liberal indoctrination coming home to roost. And we've got to turn it
around if we're going to win again. Ah, yes, it's campus indoctrination. That must be it. Definitely
doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Republicans are employing a literal
That they're banning books, that they're banning abortion, that they're banning interstate
travel, banning medicine, banning drop boxes and polling places.
No, it must be liberal professors.
And in a way, while it's ridiculous, I listen to someone like Scott Walker, and I'm actually
relieved because their complete lack of self-awareness, their complete inability to correctly
identify the problem means that they will continue to lose.
And that was put on full display in Tennessee, because while Republicans may have been able
to expel those two legislators, they sparked protests that have spanned days so far.
They have woken up every young person, every black person, independent, and pro-democracy
Republican who might not have paid a moment of attention if it wasn't for the GOP's desperation
to consolidate power.
And now people are angry and they are mobilized and they are paying attention.
So I hope that the fleeting victory for these Republicans, not just in Tennessee, but across
the country, is worth it for them because they've lost generations of people for themselves.
And those people very clearly vote.
Next up is my interview with the governor of California.
all right now we've got the governor of california gavin newsome thanks so much for coming on it's great to be
with you now you visited students in new college in florida that is the epicenter of governor
ronda santis's efforts to reshape the state in his conservative mold how are the students viewing
this pretty blatant conservative indoctrination effort well i mean that's exactly what it is they want to
bring us back to a pre-1960s world period full stop and you hear that loudly and clearly from faculty staff
you hear it loudly and clearly from community leaders that we met with, not just the students
themselves. They feel under assault. They feel anxious. They feel challenged in terms of just
dealing with what they have to deal with every single day as being a young student just trying to
learn. Yeah. They have parents in some cases that want them back home because they don't want them
to be part of this fight. Others are doubting that they have the resilience and strength to be part
of this fight. Yet all of them are just bewildered that they're being used as a pawn in a political
game to try to reshape higher education across this country and make no mistake. That's what this is
about. Period. Full stop. This is a full on assault of higher education and academic freedom.
And this is about reshaping higher education, which many of these guys like DeSantis think is some
damn establishment plot. Yeah. You know, the irony isn't lost on me either that
that this comes from a party that keeps accusing everybody else of being groomers.
And now they're trying to literally find young people wherever they can
and just kind of indoctrinate them in their conservative worldview.
I mean, remember, the ex-Republican Speaker of the House
is the one dictating the terms now in New College.
I mean, they don't even make any pretense.
They say they want to make in mold and model.
They've said this clearly, openly.
Again, no one's hiding it.
They want this to be the Hillsdale, the South.
They want to create a Christian community here.
I mean, they've got all these national folks behind them,
and they decided to take, because they're bullies.
The one thing, Ronda Sanis hasn't come in.
Every, literally, think about it, every single thing this guy does.
He does with intention because he's a weak guy masquerading as if he's a strong guy.
So he takes on the most vulnerable consistently, a 700-person college.
He takes on, he has to find migrants in another state.
I mean, just think about it, he goes to another state to find migrants under false pretests and sends them to an island.
He decides to have his own police force and go out and arrest people early in the morning in their underwear because they filled out the wrong form.
Everything this guy does going after the LGBTQ community, going after even trying to take, I mean, everything this guy does has that in common, trying to humiliate, try to bully other people.
And this is consequential, though, because if he's successful here, it will have an impact.
and reverberate in other states and other institutions. And as a guy that runs the UC system
and the CSU board of trustees, the greater compare belt for talent of public education, higher learning,
anywhere on the globe, this is a serious, serious moment. And that's why I'm here to call it out
and all of academia should be calling this out. Yeah, I think that's perfectly put. Building on exactly
that, we just had a shooting in Nashville where three young kids, nine-year-olds were killed there.
Days later, Ron DeSantis would quietly loosen gun laws in his state.
Can I have your response to that?
It makes you sick to your stomach.
Talk about, again, weakness, masquerading, his strength.
He didn't even do a public event because he knows that it's not only, I mean,
overwhelming majority of people that he claims to represent in this freedom-loving state
think this is shit crazy.
I mean, the idea, regardless of any background, any issues, I mean, anything, you don't have
any training, you know, any background, anyone to walk in,
with concealed carry gun anywhere in god i mean he's this is insane and as you suggest the insanity
only underscored and punctuated by the fact we had yet another shooting in three beautiful nine-year-olds
just gunned down by these weapons of war these platforms of mass destruction and states that don't even
have the courage to have read flag laws that cut mental health that cut programs to address the issues
of crime and violence and don't have the courage of suggesting that this was not the founding father's
vision as there were their muskets going like this to shoot one bullet indiscriminately now to have
these weapons of war as we saw 150 plus rounds in a matter of minutes taking people's heads off
so they can't even get DNA now they need DNA analysis to be able to identify these young beautiful
children it's sickening what's happening randesantis is probably the most effective communicator in
this place but he's not the only republican governor that's advancing these principles but he did it
again, in a shameful way, behind closed doors with the NRA behind him doing something that is
absolutely inconsistent with protecting the freedoms and liberties of the people of the state of
Florida. You know, you've been one of the only people in the Democratic Party who's been able
to effectively call out the violent crime rates in these red states, despite these red state
politicians, basically just calling out blue states, as if it's, as if crime is just a problem
here. Can you speak on that issue for a moment?
Yeah, I'm in a state has 28% higher murder rate than the state of California.
I'm here in the freedom-loving state of Florida.
I mean, you can't make this stuff up.
Eight of the top 10 murder states in terms of increase in murder rates are all red states.
By the way, seven of the top 10 dependent states are those same states with lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality, maternal mortality, some of the worst health outcomes in the country.
I mean, how the demographic, if we look at their GDP rates, 60 plus percent of the GDP in this country in blue states, how are we losing these?
debates. How are we losing these debates? We've got to go on the offense. We can't continue to
be on the defense and nor can we continue to focus exclusively. I say we love and respect just on
Washington, D.C. It's the United States of America and there's 25, 26 states where people
are in real peril, their rights being rolled back in real time, their liberties, their freedoms,
it's happening. It's time to pay more attention. To that point, you have been out in Arkansas,
in Alabama. So not exactly these liberal bastions out here in the country, but you've got this
new PAC, the campaign for democracy. What's the goal with this? By the way, they were liberal
bastions. Don't forget, not that many years ago. Do you know in every one of those states,
you had Democratic leadership in their senators or their equivalent of their assemblies.
Yeah. We had a president from Arkansas. Exactly. Up until 2010. They were in the majority.
I met with all the Democratic caucus in both lower and upper house in Alabama. They
reminding me they were still all there they were the majority they said just 15 years ago
and they're like thank you for not given up on us you know there are a lot more of us than they are
of them but our party is not focusing on these states and that's why i intentionally went to
jackson mississippi and met with the young and remarkable mayor who's under full on assault
by their state government that's trying to take over everything in there and they can't even
solve their water issues they're selling fear and anxiety around crime and immigration
but total calm and indifference about safe and basic access to drinking water.
And the fact that we were in Mississippi is not lost on you and me,
because I also then went to Arkansas,
where we went in in places like Little Rock that also had these extreme weather events,
these tornadoes tearing the communities asunder.
And so it's not just our politics.
It's also what's happening with Mother Nature,
and they sell, again, common indifference when it comes to climate change.
So it's very frustrating in Little Rock, as you say, we had a former president there,
but we have some remarkable local leaders and mayors and state representatives that they
haven't given up yet. And I don't think our party should. So I'm just trying to highlight a little
of that. And of course, Alabama, man, I was there. We went to Dr. King's house where he was
pastor for six years on his 50th anniversary of his assassination. I was with Brian Stevenson.
Oh my gosh, Brian Stevenson at the Legacy Museum, which just is...
oh my people should drop everything go go to alabama go to the legacy museum i went to rosa parks
museum and was reminded i had my four kids no textbook would remind me of this it wasn't that she
just said no it's everything she did and everybody did 382 days during that montgomery bus
boycott that's the real lesson there and that was the lesson i was trying to talk to the kids here
it's not just standing up in terms of the impact of what's happening at new college
It's the hard work that we have to do to create a movement around this change.
And I love these guys.
They haven't gotten the memo that it's over.
They haven't gotten the memo that Tucker Carlson's trying to shove down our throats every single day in the anger industry that is Fox and One American News and Newsmax.
And that gives me some confidence, man, that we can figure this stuff out.
I mean it.
I'm like so excited about what we're capable of doing if we just don't give up on anybody, don't give up on these states.
Yeah.
And I think that's underscored, by the way, by the fact.
that we just saw, you know, the Wisconsin Supreme Court go get flipped from red to blue.
And we're watching, you know, these states where these Republicans traffic solely in extremism
and just kind of shoot themselves in the foot because people, people don't want it.
And I don't know how many times Americans have to tell these politicians that they don't want it.
They did it in 2018, 2020, 2020, and nothing's changing.
They keep selling the same product.
People keep refusing it.
But, you know, don't interrupt your enemy while they're making a mistake, I guess.
And I agree with, by the way, 100% agree with you.
and we also should be mindful how successful they are at the same time and what i mean by that
maybe not through the prism of a national lens and not through the prism obviously the situational
lens as it relates to the wonderful victory of the supreme court yesterday in wisconsin
but they are rolling back rights in real time yeah on voting rights on civil rights
lgptu rights they're rolling back rights on abortion they're rolling back rights on contraceptives
and they're doing it state after state it's a full on assault these bathroom bills the othering the us
versus them mentality, the trans community, the obsession with drag shows. And they're winning and
they're scaring people into submission. And there's a hierarchy, a framework, of power and dominance
and aggression that they're advancing. And again, they're winning in these states. And they're
also trying to nationalize these wins with the, you know, judge shopping in Amarillo, Texas,
judge shopping down in San Diego, California, where we have a judge, Judge Benitez, who's likely
to throw out our assault weapons ban. Obviously, with the MIFI drug and the impacts, that could have a
medical abortion. So you're 100% right. But the prism to which I see the world is not always
top down. It's also bottom up. And Dobbs obviously helped us in the midterms, but I hope we don't
get lulled in to some semi-conscious, well, you know, so many confidence where we lose consciousness
of this rights regression that is happening across our country. You know, you're in these red
areas. I don't know how much you've gotten to speak to Republican voters or Republican constituents,
but I guess my question would be, if you are, how are they reconciling their allegiance to
their political party, which in many ways is their identity, right, with a recognition, perhaps,
that their party is sliding full tilt into, you know, authoritarianism? All on, functionally
authoritarian. That was exactly. It was the exact words, not your words, not my words, that we
heard from these students. By the way, one of those students answered that question for you.
She said, I asked, how are your parents feeling about all this? And someone who was very timid,
one of the last people to speak, she raised their hand. She goes, oh, my parents love Ron DeSantis.
But they want me to leave the school because they can't believe this is happening.
And she said, it's the first time they had to square that reality, that they like this guy,
and they're like, wait, this is not good for you. It's creating a culture, creating anxiety.
and we sent you there for academic freedom, self-directed education, for all the creativity
that that kind of freedom, academic freedom provides and the critical thinking, and they
want her to leave.
And so I think they're all overplaying their hand.
I know they're overplaying their hand.
And I guess that goes to your earlier point.
You know, if your enemy is screwing up, just get out of the way.
I get it.
But there's so much damage they're doing.
There's so much vandalism.
to our rights and freedoms and liberties they're doing along the way and that's why i'm on my way
you know to continue this red state tour to continue to call this stuff out because i i really feel
the republican party if they've done one thing effectively over the course the last few decades man
there there there there's a they have they have built institutions they built muscle memory
they book bans and all this stuff this didn't happen by chance i mean these guys are
organized and by the way this whole new college thing this is a national organized effort they've
been building for this. They were looking for a pond. They were looking for a target that they
want to export. Democrats, we do a little of that, but we so fall in love so quickly,
guy on the white horse to save the day. We're like, oh, there. And we're like puppy dog,
you know, and then we stopped doing the hard work. And that's why I think it's really
important. Bottom up, not just top down. And that was Bama's campaign, wasn't it? All these
35,000 self-organizing communities change starts the bottom up. Yes, we can. And that campaign mindset
We need to get into how we govern.
And that's hard.
I'm struggling with that as governor as well.
But that's also functionally what I'm trying to focus our efforts on.
Governor Newsom, what have you learned about the country during these stops?
That the fear and the anxiety and cynicism that so many of us have, you want the antidote.
Just go local, man.
Stand on your head, go local.
It's just incredible things you're seen at the local level.
I mean, I'm in Bentonville.
I'm in Montgomery.
I'm in Jackson.
I'm in the deep south, and I come back, inspired and livened.
I mean, like, I'm here in Sarasota, Florida.
I'm literally at the library in Sarasota, Florida, right next to the new college.
I just met with these kids.
And I'm, like, coming back, I'm like so excited.
And I get to be governor.
I get to do my job.
I'm so much better person, I think, because of this experience.
And because I feel a deeper sense of accountability, responsibility.
We're not victims.
We could shape the future.
we're not victims. I heard that there was an act of this. I love it with a huge room. And
she had lost her election. And she's just, we're not victims. And I'm like, oh, my God. And then
she got it in my face. We can, you know, decisions, not conditions that determine our fate
future. I'm like, yes. And then I'm like all pumped up and all these Democrats. And we're like,
yes. And it wasn't fake, man. It's not fake. It's real. And as long as those people are out there
and we say to them, you matter. We have your back. Man, we can inspire more of that. And
I didn't get the memo. I ain't giving up yet. I ain't giving up.
Are people receptive to you out there because you're the governor of the biggest,
bluest state in the country? You're like the king of the evil communist, Marxist, leftist,
you know? So like, how do people respond to you out there?
I've also the governor of one of the largest rural state in America. I'm also the governor
that the biggest agricultural state in America with more hunting jobs, with more fishing jobs.
with more forestry jobs than another state in America.
I'm also the governor of the biggest manufacturing state in America.
It is all familiar to me.
That said, yes, this bear does represent a lot to a lot of people.
And I know that as well or better than anybody else.
So no, that's hard, right?
I mean, that's, you know, a little humility.
I understand.
I have to win people over, including, by the way,
I was with the Alabama Democrats.
Like, what are you doing out here?
why are you here you got it you got to you got to win people over i'm not naive about that and uh that's
what i went to church before i was there just to be reminded you know this these foundational prints
have all bound together by a web of mutuality right i mean just we're all in this together we're all
better off we're all better off sitting there listening to the library the clinton library and
he talked about we celebrate all our interesting differences and it didn't end there we celebrate all
our interesting differences listening to clinton comma but we unite around the things that bind us together
and i'm just am reminded of that that's that second part of the equation democrats we need to talk more
about what unites us together democrat republican rural urban from one coast to the other coast to the
south and the north you know there is this fundamental independence but there's also universal
truths we want to be respected connected we want to love we want to be loved i mean stop the politics
man's getting in the way of these human values that connect us all. And if I can find that,
you know, versus the blue and the bear, then we find that space, that sort of magical space
when we talk about our kids. Do you find that people are appreciative of you going into areas
that a lot of us would consider forgotten areas or they themselves would even consider
forgotten areas? When I hear politicians, I roll my eyes like you and everybody else rolls
our eyes. Brother, it was off the charts how happy people were. I was like, wow, I didn't know.
I was like, I was like, thank you for doing this. I was like, no, thank you. I'm like, why are you
thinking me? Kind of did this selfish thing. I want to be helpful, but I also wanted to absorb and
understand. And like, no, thank you. And it's amazing. Just showing up, man. Show up.
you know and just listen and absorb have a two-way conversation um and i'm so i'm so you know i'm
i'm doing this pack i know pack right everyone go oh here the politician of the pack but you know i had
all this extra money because they tried to recall me and i had to raise 84 million dollars raised
like 138 million dollars in 18 months and luckily you know after we beat the recall handily
and was able to win my re-election i had this big surplus i'm like what am i going to do with it and i'm like
I love what DNC is doing.
I love what Biden's doing.
I love they're preparing for 2024,
looking at the electoral map.
I get that scarcity of time and resources.
But I don't have a scarcity of time.
And right now, relatively speaking,
I don't have a scarcity of resource.
So how can I use them to the biggest effect
and impact more people,
more ways on more days in a way that's different and distinctive?
And that's kind of the approach we're taking.
We hope it's complementary.
But in the old adage, once a mind is stretched,
I hope it never goes back to the original form.
I hope we keep stretching the possibility for our party not to give up on Alabama,
not to give up on the South.
These are our voters, man, they need us.
These are people, the Republicans need us out there.
Like you really, Medicaid, they're not to be expanding Medicaid.
Their rural hospitals are going out of business.
It's mind-blowing.
I don't know who the hell these guys are representing.
So they need us, and we can't give up on in these American people that many happen to be
Democrats, a lot of them are Republicans.
What was the decision-making process to go in?
into these places that are deep red places where there may not be hope for a long time of
Democrats taking power when there are still purple areas.
You know, there are these swingy districts, these swingy states where, you know, going into
these places might push some of these people over the edge and, you know, who are on the fence
and where we can actually have a better chance at kind of gaining power and then, you know,
implementing an agenda that that is more, you know, the agenda that people are looking for.
You know, it's the right question.
It's a question I asked, and we answered it a little differently.
I feel like there's so many organizations do an amazing work in that space.
You know, red to blue, all these groups that are in that frame, right?
And I'm like, again, where can I add value down a path that no one's really dry?
I mean, it just and how can I not also pave over the old cowpath, so to speak,
meaning how can we do something a little bit with iteration, a little different?
and you know this whole idea of going out and showing up and take it with all due respect i mean i'm
you know i'm not holding back on desantis in his backyard i'm just done receiving end of you
know you know jesse waters or how these people are on these people like i mean i'm sitting here
and then crt this and you know crying woke about everything look there's a cloud and it's quite
woke woke i mean insanity i'm like so it's iteration i did those ads in florida you know you can
excuse me, of many things, but not being inconsistent.
You know, I did those a year and a half or so ago.
I did billboards in seven states, 20 billboards on, you know,
CA.abortion.gov, saying we have your back as it relates to reproductive freedom and rights.
I did, you know, ads in Texas.
I'm trying to do things through an iterative mindset, see what works,
trying new communication strategy, getting them on the defensive, not just ours.
Because I don't, how can we not, how can they not be on the defensive?
Yeah.
I mean, on health and wealth and education, they're failing.
I'm in a state had 58% higher per capita death rates under COVID.
That's freedom, 58% higher per capita death rates.
Their education system, we outperformed during COVID, Florida.
The vaunted Florida, we kept our schools open.
Really?
Well, you know what?
You did worse in terms of learning loss in the state of California on three out of four key metrics.
Fourth grade reading, fourth grade math, eighth grade reading, eight grade math.
We outperform them three out of four.
And the one we did, we tied on the issues of course.
crime. We talk about that on issues related across the spectrum, including economic output.
We contracted less than Florida and Texas and the national government. And we expanded in 2021 during
the rebound year more than they did. There's a lot of myth out there, a lot of BS. And I don't know,
we can't win through the lens of trying to get on Fox and a retort to, you know, Sean Hannity.
We got to go out on the damn road, man. Well, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for the work you're
doing and for, you know, finding all these people who,
who need some representation out there
and who are fighting a good fight in places
that other Democrats aren't going to.
So Governor Newsom, appreciate you taking the time.
Well, I appreciate you just doing everything you do
every time I see you.
So I'm honored to be with you.
Thank you, buddy.
Now you've got the president of the AFL-CIO,
Liz Schuller, thanks so much for taking the time.
Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me on the show.
Of course.
So the big news here, as far as labor is concerned right now,
is that former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz testified before the help committee about union busting tactics
related to Starbucks. What was your takeaway from this hearing? I just shook my head the whole time.
It was hard to listen to, frankly, because the testimony was so inaccurate. It was blatantly false most of the time.
And I just said, how can you have the audacity to sit before U.S. senators and tell them
hey take me at my word don't listen to the 7,000 workers at what is it over 300 stores now
who voted to form a union just disregard them right so that's what came across to me I don't
think he did himself any favors and we know that he's violated the law the company has been
blatantly union busting and so to see him testifying and essentially showing just disregard
was really offensive to me.
And that's the thing that I'm having trouble reconciling here
is that the National Labor Relations Board,
the NLRB, found that Starbucks violated federal labor law
over a hundred times during the last 18 months.
And yet, during this hearing, Howard Schultz maintained
throughout the entire thing that Starbucks hasn't broken the law.
Am I missing something here?
Like, I guess how do you square those two things?
Yeah, and they get creative, right?
They say, oh, well, we disagree with what an administrative law
judge said or, oh, we're filing an appeal because we don't think they got it right.
So how do you get it, how do you not get it right a hundred times?
As they say, where there's smoke, there's fire, right? And so I think the evidence is pretty
overwhelming that when workers stand up and want to form a union, they want to have their voice
heard. They are squelched at every turn. They're fired. They're harassed. They're intimidated.
And no matter what Howard Schultz said in that room, we see the evidence and the evidence is mounting
that people want to be heard. They want to be respected and they want a union.
One thing that struck me during the hearing was learning about the law firms that Starbucks
had retained in order to fight these unionization efforts. And the lawyers that they retained
charged rates upwards of 600 bucks an hour. Is the irony not lost on anyone that Starbucks is
willing to pay these massive sums to lawyers all in service of not giving their own baristas
a few more dollars, or the ability to collectively bargains that they can make a few more dollars?
It is so frustrating because you can think about how that money could be used to improve
working conditions, to hire more staff, to improve wages and benefits. And in fact, the Economic
Policy Institute just released a study saying that U.S. companies spent over $400 million,
$400 million last year on union busting firms.
It's outrageous.
And if you could take that money and put it into improving, you know, working conditions
and wages for workers, think about what that could do for your bottom line as a business.
And not just like workers in the nebulous sense.
These are people that are working at your company.
This is to help your own people, people who are like making you your money.
Who showed up during the pandemic, came in with their own health at risk to continue to provide a service who are working through short staffing where, you know, beverages and food are piling up because customers come in.
It's not ready.
They leave because the staff is so shorthanded that they can't keep up with the demand.
And they're enduring hostile work environments, hostile customers, people who are taking things out on the workers because management has not.
taken care of them. Yeah. You know, Starbucks has taken retaliatory action against unionized
employees by depriving them of a number of things, including like credit card tips for one.
Has this kind of behavior chilled the unionization movement? Absolutely. And I'm so glad you raised
that because what we're seeing is this notion that if you form a union, we're going to do everything
we can to make sure that those benefits like tipping aren't associated with the union.
So what they do is reward folks at non-union stores and say, oh, gosh, we wish we could
give that to you at the unionized store, but now that you formed a union, you have to bargain
for that, which is blatantly false.
They can give benefits, wage increases, anytime they want, no matter what, right?
If we're rising the tide and lifting all boats, you can do that as a company.
What we like to do is have a voice and a say in how working conditions and technology is used in the workplace,
how staffing levels are determined, how hours are determined so that as a worker you have predictability in your schedule,
you can plan your life, you can rely on a consistent source of income.
So we don't think that's too much to ask.
But you're right, they are treating employees differently, depending on if you're at a unionized
store.
I've heard of, you know, stores being closed if they unionize.
We've seen, you know, as we've seen illegal terminations, if you try to form a union,
you're fired.
Certainly the tipping has become an issue.
And then also we've seen changes in health care being proposed at some of the
unionized stores. So it's clearly a pattern of behavior on behalf of the company following an
anti-union playbook. Yeah. Now, how is the unionization movement going more broadly? Because I feel
like a year ago, we would get news every single day about a new Starbucks or Apple store being
unionized. And I'm not seeing as many right now. So is that a fair read of this? Or is it still
happening at the same rate? And it's just not getting picked up in the news as much. Yeah, it's still
happening. Despite all the obstacles that we just talked about, workers are still rising up.
showing incredible courage.
We just saw that the UAW, the United Auto Workers,
won a election for graduate workers, researchers.
We have examples of, like you said, Apple stores,
and, you know, folks who are rising up in industries
that we never thought possible, right?
Certainly video game developers, no one ever thought that would be a place where people would unionize, but they are being treated, you know, just like any other workplace, they're struggling with the same things as far as, you know, safety and health and predictable hours and schedules and working overtime. We also saw minor league baseball players. 5,000 of them just come together to join a union and our negotiations.
a contract right now because the major league players have joined forces with them to lift up
conditions and wages and benefits for minor league players who were making on average $18,000 a year
to pursue their dream. So the action is out there. It's happening. But certainly, you know,
companies will do everything they can to stop it. What about some of these industries that are
historically, like, rife with abuse. I was watching a more perfect union expose the other day
about sex workers and, like, what about those kind of industries where those protections are so
desperately needed because it's not just an issue of finances is also an issue of their own
safety and well-being. Yeah, absolutely. We always say that there is no industry off limits
for forming a union. That is the freedom to...
to come together collectively is enshrined in our labor laws.
And in fact, not many people realize that that is the baseline we start from,
that people should be able to form unions.
It's not the opposite where we should fight to prove that we're worthy of forming a union.
It's that we should be able to form it.
And then, you know, the law should protect us and be proactive to help workers form unions.
Right now, the laws are so broken, though, and have been tilted toward companies
that it makes it more difficult, as we know.
But no matter what industry you're in,
especially in industries, as you mentioned,
that are facing work environments that are unsafe,
where they need the protection of a collective voice
where they feel on their own and without protection,
those are the types of work that need unions
because coming together collectively gives you more power.
It gives you the ability to sit across the table from your employer and actually, you know,
talk about the challenges you face.
And it's different depending on the job you do.
But that's the beauty of a union is it's flexible and you get to decide what are the issues
that you really want to talk about and negotiate in your contract.
So I guess all of this raises the question in that a lot of these companies view anti-union
behavior and the fines that they incur from it as just the cost of doing business.
So how do we fix that?
Yeah, I wish that I could sit down with someone like Howard Schultz and say, you know what?
Unions are not what you think they are.
There's an old stereotype.
There's a misperception that for some reason you think, oh, having a union is going to destroy your business.
When in fact we see examples, I come out of the electrical industry and, you know, we have a long history of where when the employer does well, the workers do well,
and everybody wins. And the union then is a partner in making the business more successful
because when they're fairly compensated and listened to and respected, they work,
productivity goes up. They want to work hard and make the business more successful. So we have
tons of examples of, you know, that model working well. And in particular globally, we see that
you know, in other countries. So I think the notion of approaching this as a hostile environment
to operate in, that you bust unions at all costs, oh, it's just a cost of doing business,
is the absolute wrong way to approach this. And in fact, we see with Microsoft, for example,
where their company said, you know what, if workers want to form a union, we're going to stand by,
we're not going to interfere. We're going to remain neutral. And we want our employees to be
able to make that decision free from intimidation and harassment. So they've taken the opposite
posture. And so far so good because workers have felt free, you know, to come together. And they
have, you know, in the video gaming sector, decided that's what they wanted. So I think that
we should be actually educating these businesses. Like, don't be led astray by these union
busting firms, you need to stand up and recognize that listening to your employees is actually
good for business. Well, and of course, there are going to be plenty of these businesses that don't
take such a welcoming approach to what you just said. And so obviously, legislation is needed.
So can you talk about the pro act and what it would do? Absolutely. And thanks for raising it,
because the protecting the right to organize act is the legislation that we worked with Congress
to introduce that's been actually in the hopper now for several years, but we keep pushing
for it because labor laws are so broken.
They've been chipped away at over many years and tilted in favor of corporations over time.
And so it takes an act of courage to form a union because, you know, employers will come
at you with everything they have, as we've seen with Starbucks and, you know, in so many places.
right, the default is always to fight a union, not welcome a union. So the protecting the right to
organize act would level the playing field. It would actually institute real penalties for employers
who break the law like Starbucks and hold them accountable for violating workers' rights
and would actually help speed up the process to get them to the table to actually negotiate a contract.
And that's what's the most frustrating thing about Starbucks is you have over 300 stores that have voted to unionize,
but Starbucks refuses to come to the bargaining table to negotiate a contract because there are no meaningful penalties.
There are no consequences.
And that's very dispiriting to working people who have risked it all and were so hopeful that they could have.
a voice and now they just need that contract so that they have that place at the table to make
meaningful change. So it's really empowering workers. It's, you know, securing free, fair,
safe union elections. You know, the Pro Act would help that by preventing employers from interfering
and holding these captive audience meetings, which they do with impunity as well, where they bring
everybody into a room and make them listen to anti-union propaganda.
and it would promote transparency.
And so we think, you know, long term, we'll keep fighting for the pro act.
But in the meantime, workers are continuing to rise up and make their voices heard and continue to organize despite the obstacles.
With that said, what is the appetite in Congress based on your experience for getting this past?
And is there any opposition along party lines?
And why would that be?
Yeah, I think it very much is along party lines because it's a lot.
philosophy that, you know, Republicans view unions as a threat. They think of us as a democratic
institution aligned with the Democratic Party when, in fact, we are a worker organization
that we represent working people and we support elected officials who support working people
regardless of party. Right. So if there's no support for Republicans, that's not, what that says is
basically more about where Republicans put their allegiances than where you guys put your
allegiances. Absolutely. If you're going to vote to protect working people, we support you.
The voting records speak for themselves. And so over time, the party leadership has decided to go
in a completely different direction. There are some Republicans who are waking up to the fact
that working people really are where the power is. And so you've seen some Republicans try to
shift their positioning as far as unions go. But for the most part, Democrats believe in working
people being able to have a voice to come together and negotiate better wages and conditions
and have health care and paid sick leave in contracts that hold employers accountable and really
balance the scales. Because as we know, inequality has been growing in our country. And the only
way that we can actually
start reversing
that trend is for working people
to have more power, to come together
collectively and to demand more
together. And that's through a union.
Perfectly put. We'll leave it there.
Liz Schuller, thank you so much for taking
the time and for the work that you do.
Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Appreciate it.
Thanks again to Liz. One quick note.
If you're new here and you enjoy this episode,
please subscribe and throw me a review. All that stuff helps.
Okay, that's it for this episode. Talk to you next week.
You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California.
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