No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Republicans commit political malpractice with budget bill

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

Trump and Republicans take an axe to our healthcare system and our economy– but the Democrats can learn something from it. Brian interviews Senator Elizabeth Warren about the House budget bill that’ll gut healthcare and food assistance for tens of millions of Americans and attorney Norm Eisen about a major update on the legal front.Shop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Trump and Republicans taking an axe to our health care system and our economy, but what the Democrats can learn from it. And I've got two interviews this week. I sit down with Senator Elizabeth Warren to discuss the House budget bill that'll gut health care and food assistance for tens of millions of Americans and attorney Norm Eisen about a major update on the legal front. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So there are two things happening at once right now, both of which put on full display where Trump and Republicans' priorities lie. The first is that the House just passed a budget bill, and that's going to take health care away from 13.7 million Americans. It's going to strip $300 billion from food assistance, eliminates clean energy tax credits, and restricts a bunch of student loan subsidies, all in service of the second thing, which is that it pays for tax cuts that will overwhelmingly benefit the ultra-wealthy. According to the Penn Wharton analysis, people making between $17,000 and $51,000 a year could lose about $700 on average. people reporting less than $17,000 in the income per year would see a reduction closer to

$1,000 on average. By contrast, the top 0.1%, including those with incomes over $4 million, they would gain on average $389,000 in after-tax income per year. In other words, hundreds of thousands of dollars in giveaways for the richest Americans, people making over $4 million and a net loss in after-tax income for the working class. And that, of course, is exacerbated by the fact that food assistance and health care, which those folks primarily take advantage of, would be gutted. And of course, that's on top of the fact that Trump is just swimming in corruption, raking in money from his crypto venture, doubled his net worth to $5.4 billion.

He's accepted a $400 million jet from Qatar. He's allowed Elon Musk to pay voters to bribe them into voting for Republicans, fired inspectors general, made a carve-out for silencers in the same bill where they gutted health care. All this stuff on and on. and on. And of course, when discussing the political implications of all of this, it's pretty obvious on its face that this is political suicide. I mean, the last time that Republicans went after health care in 2017, they lost the midterms by the biggest margin in modern American history, lost 41 seats in the House in 2018. And they're doing the same thing now

with Medicaid, despite knowing that. And we're already seeing special election results that mirror 2017. Back then, there was an average 11-point swing to the left in the new. Nearly two dozen races held since this past November, Democrats are benefiting from an average 11-point swing to the left, so an identical swing. And these Republican politicians are no dummies, right? They understand the stakes. They were all around in 2018. They saw what happened then, and they can see what's happening right now.

They see the similarities. And so I know anybody with some sense is asking the same question, why would they do this? And the answer to that question, I think, is really, really important. it's that Republicans are clear about what they want and what they want over and over and over again is a tax cut and they will give themselves a tax cut and they will refuse to let anything stand in their way even if it means their own prospects and midterms

because when they gain power they make sure to use it to get what they want and they know that worst case scenario they lose some seats in the next election but our politics are cyclical they'll win again they always do I mean hell Trump had cited a fucking insurrection and his party refused to lift a finger to hold him accountable, and they were in the wilderness for all of one cycle.

That's it. These assholes tried to hang their own vice president, kill Nancy Pelosi in the Capitol, and within four years, they again had full control of government. They get into power, and they exercise that power to get exactly what they want, no matter what they have to break to get it,

which honestly should be a lesson for the Democrats, because while the Republicans will stop at nothing to accomplish their agenda, the Democrats seemingly will let everything stand in their way, whether it's the filibuster or the parliamentarian or some arbitrary procedural hurdle, we don't have national voting rights legislation right now because the Democrats felt that it was necessary to defend not that legislation but the filibuster,

as if the filibuster is what they were elected to protect, a norm from a bygone era that isn't even binding, a norm that Republicans already nuked when it comes to their own priorities of tax cuts and judges, but we voluntarily kept it in place because, God forbid, we don't protect our norms and our institutions even if it means allowing our democracy to die in the process. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

And that's the sad reality of our party. Democrats all too often defend the procedures of government instead of exercising power in the rare instances that they have it. And unlike Trump and Republicans, Democrats can actually exercise that power in a virtuous way. They can strengthen health care. They can increase the minimum wage. They can codify abortion rights.

Like, it's so rare that we're actually in a position to wield power, that we're actually in a position where we have unified control of government. Why are we not exercising it to its fullest extent when we get it? Like, we're so worried about, what, potential backlash in the future? So what? We lose an election. We're out of power after that, but who cares? Because A, we'll eventually get back in.

And B, frankly, the best case to get Americans to vote for you again is literally showing them that you can exercise that power and that you are willing to do something. So I know that this is, like, kind of perverse, but I hope that Democrats are paying attention to what Trump and Republicans are doing right now, because if they can learn anything from it, it's that there is no excuse not to exercise power

to its fullest extent when we get it. And that rather than fearing the consequences of doing something, what we should actually fear is the consequences of not doing it. Next up are my interviews with Elizabeth Warren and Norm Eisen. No lie is bro. brought to you by Everyday Dose. Now look, I love my coffee routine. I need it to stay awake, especially when you're doing long days covering Donald Trump, but I don't like the way the coffee makes me feel. Everyday dose is the solution to this because it has that classic coffee taste

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That's Everydaydose.com slash BTC for 45% off. off your first order. I'm joined now by Senator Elizabeth Warren. Thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, thanks for having me. It's always good to talk with you. So we are right now in the midst of this negotiation for the budget bill, which is proven a little bit more difficult for Republicans than they had anticipated because you've got some Republicans who are having trouble stomaching this bill, not because it'll kick 14 million people off of health care, not because it takes food stamps away from Americans, but because the cuts aren't deep enough, which means we should expect to see even deeper cuts to some of these essential lifelines that Americans rely on.

And so where do we stand right now in terms of the bill actually being passed? I know that it's in the House. So this isn't exactly your jurisdiction, but eventually it's going to get to you guys in the Senate. Oh, but we're part of this. I mean, watching it and watching it unfold. And you have it exactly right. The fight among Republicans in the House is basically, do we go with a bill that tells 14 million people they're going to lose their health? care and raises the cost of groceries for tens of millions of people. Oh, and raises the cost of utilities for people all across this country. Remember Trump's promise that he would lower costs on day one? Yeah. This is the bill that delivers raising costs for Americans. So they're fighting

over just how much costs should go up. 14 million people should lose their health care. 20 million people should lose their health care. A million babies should go hungry or five million babies should go hungry. All of it, but always keep this frame in mind. All of it in service to we got to do more in tax giveaways for a handful of billionaires. So I think of this right now as they're fighting over how many children should go hungry so that Martin Zuckerberg can buy another Hawaiian island. Right. Can you talk about what this would actually mean in terms of taxes?

Because Republicans, of course, are trying to frame this as if we don't do this, this eliminates the biggest tax cut in American history. And so what does this look like in effect, both with the highest earners, but then middle-income earners and the lowest-income earners? Okay. So the deal, let's start at the high end. At the high end, what this bill does is, remember, that they passed a tax bill back in 2018, but it expired. And it's expiring now. And it was mostly sucked up, two trillion dollars, mostly sucked up by millionaires, billionaires, and giant

corporations. That is expiring. So what they want to do is they want to give those billionaires a new set of tax giveaways. It will be the biggest gift in American history from the poorest Americans to the richest Americans. That's just the whole deal. And so at the top end, it is a great deal. It says, you don't pay any taxes basically anyway, but we want to actually give you stuff. We want to give you credits for taxes you didn't pay. And then the federal government will write you a check. Like that's what they're doing around things like so-called research deductions. Okay. But the other end of it because notice the swing. The other end of it is for Americans who actually need some

help paying for their health insurance or for their medical care coverage. Right now, 14 million of them just lose it. And the money goes straight to those at the top. Americans who count on a little assistance to be able to make it to the end of the month and pay their grocery bills goes right to the top because they want to make those cuts. And that's the big one at the two ends. What happens in the middle is costs go up because, for example, they want to get rid of all the ways that we're trying to do clean energy now. And that clean energy actually reduces your utility costs.

Getting that solar up, getting that wind up, that stuff is cheap to operate, a lot cheaper than having to buy oil week after week after week. So all of that goes away. And that means average middle-class family, your costs start to go up. And I'm not sure if it was like the Penn Wharton analysis or the CBO or the one of these committees that scored this tax bill. But it said something like $389,000 tax reduction for the top 1%. And then we have for middle earners that we would actually see a tax increase of about $700. And for the lowest earners, a tax increase of $1,000.

So, you know, these are really, I mean, you're borrowing from the poor to be able to pay the rich in this country, which I guess lends itself to this next question. And that is that when it comes to these tax cuts, they're always structured this way. Like, we don't have tax cuts that we don't have the elusive middle class tax cut or the working class tax cut that's so often promised. It always ends up being a tax cut that's going to help the wealthy. And so there is this sense of, okay, well, this is the best we've got. And so even, with the 2017 tax cut, if there was some tangential benefit, if the lowest earners in this country, if the working poor in this country get a few hundred dollars, and granted, it's crumbs compared to the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the highest earners get, still there's this sense that, okay, well, a few hundred dollars is still better than nothing. And so we'll just swallow it.

And so, like, there is this sense of, okay, we have to be happy with the crumbs that we've, that we're being given because the alternative is no crumbs at all. And so I'm just, I'm curious if you can speak to that idea that, that we've become a normalized to and accustomed to this idea that, yes, it's crumbs. We know it's crumbs. We know it doesn't, we know it pales in comparison to what the highest earners in this country are getting.

But that's how it goes. And so it's better than nothing. So let me start. Let me give two answers. First answer is this one isn't even crumbs. Right, right. Right. This is taking, taking away, correct?

We are actually going to, the Republicans are going to pick your pocket. You're actually. going to end up poorer with this bill. So the crumbs analogy no longer holds here. But let's do the second part. And that is, this ain't over. People have power. And when we talk about the fight right now in the House, listen, part of it is the Republicans are even more extreme, saying more babies need to lose health care, more people need to go hungry. But there's a bunch of other Republicans and say, whoa, wait just a minute, we're all going to be up for re-election in 2026 and starting to do a little of them. Maybe we should have cold feet about this. So this is the moment for people to pick up the

phone, to get on email, to text their representatives in the House. And this is true, whether your reps are Democrats or Republicans, call them, text them. email them. And if you've already done that once, do it again. Do it again and do it again. Because it is in play right now. So nobody has to accept the, oh, this is how it always is. The ball is in the air, right? And where this is going to come down is literally in the fight in Washington, D.C. on Capitol Hill as you and I speak. This is the moment to get in in that fight. How does this get resolved as far as the Republicans are concerned? Because already you have you have deep cuts and you've got one faction who says, okay, we can't completely explode the deficit

beyond repair. And so we have to have deeper cuts here to try and offset some of these tax cuts that, God forbid, we take out. Like, they all agree that we need tax cuts for the ultra wealthy. And so it's a matter of passing the bill as it stands right now or trying to salvage some part of the deficit, but that means deeper cuts on the other side to offset those tax cuts, which means deeper cuts to health care, deeper cuts to food stamps. And so you have these competing factions here in the Republican Party where you have the quasi-deficit hawks who at least are pretending, you know, that they care about the deficit. But then you have the, but that's going to open up the other problem, which is, okay, now you've got to contend with the people who have

to go back to their districts and say, it's not just, you know, 20% of Medicaid recipients that are going to get screwed over. Now it's going to be 25%. Now it's going to be 30%, now it's can be 40%. You know, Brian, you just keep wanting to bring reality into this conversation. Right, right. My mistake. It just shows the kind of guy you are. But that's part of the problem.

Part of what's happening here is can they bend Americans' perception of reality? Right? That's what the president did. President went over there yesterday and said, we're going to make all these cuts. And don't worry about it. We're not even going to touch health care. Right. He said, we're not going to touch health care.

you're going to have more health care. They asked him about food assistance. He goes, you're going to have more food assistance. And so there's this, it's, it's earth too. We're living in the upside down right now where they are cutting these things, but then he's claiming that somehow not only are they not being cut, they're going to be more plentiful. Right. So the number one thing to do is keep talking about reality and holding them to reality. The second thing is they really want to turn away from who's going to get hurt. So I think of this, I was thinking today about, You remember the Roadrunner cartoons. Remember the bomb that you would buy, right, from Acme?

Yep. That what they want to do is they wanted to a bomb with a really long fuse. And they want to say, we're going to cut health care for millions of Americans, and we're going to cut food help for millions of Americans. But we know that that is going to be terrible for millions of families, and it's going to be terrible for the economy. So we're going to pass the law now, like the fuse, and it's not going to explode mostly until right after the election.

That way, we can do the deny reality. We can all go out, and all of those Republicans can campaign saying, nope, nobody got hurt here. Did anybody get hurt here? Nobody's been hurt. Stop being so hysterical about this. and try to bend reality. But understand about these cuts.

They're going to hit literally tens of millions of families. They're going to hit new babies, half of all new babies, who are going to lose access to health care, new mamas. People with disabilities, little babies, children with disabilities, seniors who need access to their nursing homes. But here's one more part. When you start cutting off access to medical care for that, folks, what happens? Well, the first thing it happens, they don't go to the doctor. And when they

don't go to the doctor, they end up, some of them are going to end up sicker, and that means they go to the hospital. Hospital treats everybody, because that's what hospitals are. But now, they don't get compensated for that care. I mean, you can only, you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, right? The people don't have the money. So who's going to end up paying community hospitals, rural hospitals, hospitals that you may go to and you may still have health insurance, but having health insurance coverage is not going to help you if you start to have chest pains or you are in a car accident and there's no hospital nearby to take care of you. So we have to think of every one of these cuts, man, it's terrible for the family, but it's terrible

for our communities. It starts to break our health care delivery system overall. Billionaires, they'll do fine with their concierge's medicine. But for everybody else, the system starts to break down and hurt us all. And finally, I want to finish off with this. We have heard Trump come out and say that as it relates to health care, that it's all good because you're going to be paying less money anyway. Sure, you know, the, the budget is going to have whatever impacts it has, but you're going to be paying 85% less on all of your drugs. And so I'm curious here your reaction to that because it would seem to me that the only reason that we,

look, he can write whatever edicts he wants on paper and send them out into the universe, and that's not going to just manifest whatever he writes into reality. And if it was possible for a president to just say, you know, 85% off pharmaceuticals, you know, sign name here, that it probably would have happened before. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are on this because really the way that I think about this is the only way to get drug prices down is to be able to negotiate, to have a single payer negotiate, and that is the government, and we don't do that. And in fact, Donald Trump, by virtue of being president of the United States, is entrenching a system where we don't have the government negotiating lower drug prices.

And that's why other countries do have lower drug prices, because they allow the government to be the single entity that negotiates those prices down. but here in America, it's every man for himself. And so I'm just, I'm curious for your reaction because you're obviously much better informed on this issue than I am. No, no, you have it exactly, exactly right. What Donald Trump claims is he's going to reduce the cost of drugs

by 85%. His so-called executive order on this says, will you all consider lowering your prices by a lot? It's the equivalent of him tweeting Vladimir stop. Yeah, exactly. It's a Vladimir stop moment. You know, we should start just calling them that. It's a Vladimir.

stop moment. And here's the deal. We should change how we price drugs. We should negotiate. I like the most favored nations approach to it. I think that could be really good. But you've got to come over here to Congress. You've got to write legislation and you've got to make it apply. It can't just be that the president of the United States asks for it and hopes that it will happen because that isn't going to make it happen. What's going to make it happen is we change the law. I'm ready to do that. If there are any Republicans ready to work on that, including Donald Trump, let's do it. But in the meantime, could we not gaslight Americans into believing that somehow Donald Trump just reduced the price of drugs by 85 percent? I just,

I want to come back to the reality-based world, you know, the one you were talking about a minute ago, Brian. You know, it's a slim pickings there. It's not very populated these days. Senator Warren, as always, I appreciate your time today and thank you for the work you're doing. You bet and thank you. Get the word out. Tell people to call. No lie is brought to you by Acorns. So as the market has been getting especially bumpy lately, it's been really difficult to stay calm and stick with my investments because, frankly, I'm not a pro when it comes to the market. And I do have to rely on other people who actually do know what they're talking about, which is why Acorns has been so important for me.

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Norm, we had a major move by the Trump administration yesterday where they decided that they would basically expel a whole quarter of Harvard University's class by saying that any international students can no longer, their visas no longer apply. That move was immediately challenged in court by Harvard. We have an update here. Can you explain what just happened? The court threw out the immediate. effort of the Trump administration to punish Harvard, Brian. It's pure retaliation.

Of course, you can't do that. Temporary restraining order, stop. So they threw it out for now. There's going to be more litigation, a fast move by the Trump administration, and an even faster move to shut down this act of revenge and retaliation and punishing these international students who did nothing wrong. And so, Norm, do you find it unusual that the court moves so quickly in this instance? No. If Donald Trump is going to impose authoritarianism

by shock and awe, then the defenders of the Constitution and laws, the courts and the litigators, because the courts don't act for themselves, Brian. Harvard rushed to court with great lawyers, and they got an immediate counterpunch that was just as strong as what Trump tried to do, even stronger, because they stopped him. This is because Harvard won't bow down like those big law firms did, like big mainstream media did, and kissed Trump's ring and comply. No, they're not going to change their First Amendment protected operations as University. for them. Good for the courts for a super quick reply. The lives of these 7,000 students were thrown

into chaos. Harvard was turned upside down. We needed a fast court order. I yesterday said to everyone, this is not going to fly. It's going to be shut down. And the courts proved that that was right. There was really no question about it. It's so grotesque. And so how permanent is this ruling and how much, I guess, clarification do these international students actually have? Well, the ruling is titled temporary restraining order. So by definition, I guess that answers that question. By definition. And so in that case, is this going to be, is this going to be further litigated in the courts? Yes, but I think that in this case, temporary is a misnomer because the legal foundation for this is that under the Administrative Procedures Act,

the government, if they make a unconstitutional decision or an illegal one, or an irrational one, one that is out of hatred and spite and revenge because Harvard won't go along with Trump's authoritarian dictatorial project. Come on, the law says, you can't do that. I feel so confident because this decision by the administration was so ill-founded that this will not fly. There's no basis. to do it. Look, if there's a couple of people at Harvard who have overstep bounds, who, you know, if they have violated rules in protests, if they're anti-Semitic, what have you, go to court. But you know what, Brian, those efforts have been failing, too, where the Trump administration has been trying to deport individuals, sometimes abducting them to far off states. Individual students,

the courts have said, no, the First Amendment protects that too. So Trump is losing, and he's going to keep on losing in this case, and that's going to be permanent. And what do you make of the fact that this administration, first off, loves to beat its chest as these defenders of free speech? I mean, these people predicated so much of their political ideology, their political identity on this idea that they were being silenced for years and years and years at the hands of these evil communist, Marxist Democrats. And yet now they are deporting people to countries that they've never known, because they've written op-eds, for example, that they don't agree with? When I've testified in Congress, I've had to listen to this hypocrisy where you have members of the Maga Party complaining,

social media is censoring us because they won't broadcast, for example, invitations to the January 6, 2021 insurrection. They talk a big game about censorship, but it only applies to their election denial and other crazy ideologies. Maga actually doesn't believe in the Constitution. They don't believe in free speech. They believe in the whims of Donald Trump. Well, guess what?

This country is still run by a constitution. We have courts who will enforce it. And the treatment of these students, including and others who are being deported, abducted, Brian, to dark-site prisons. No, the courts are not tolerating that. even the Supreme Court pushing back on some of this by a majority in the case of the abduction of migrants. Underneath it are constitutional protections, free speech, due process, and they apply to Harvard's targeting of these 7,000 students, or they apply to the targeting by Trump of Harvard's 7,000 students the same way they do to those accused migrants who have been.

been abducted and deported. The courts won't tolerate it, nor should they. This is still the United States of America. Norm, this is less a legal question and more, well, kind of a political or human question. But when you have these international students who are obviously talented enough, intelligent enough to get into Harvard, when you are expelling these people as the president of the United States, what does it do to our ability to aggregate the best talent in the world here in the United States that when they innovate, when they create moving forward, when they start businesses, when they find the cure for some longstanding disease, they're no longer in the United States. Now, we've expelled them to other countries.

We've basically ceded that ground to China or whoever's going to be falling over themselves to take these kids. Trump's actual slogan, Brian, should be make America small again or make America poor again because part of what has contributed to American greatness is we are a nation of migrants, including our education system. And students like these 7,000 or so Harvard students who have been unconstitutionally targeted by Trump come here. They contribute. I'm a graduate of Harvard Law School, so I know they contribute to the law school community. They make us all better. They contribute financially. But many of them, stay. And they truly make America great. In the sciences, in our innovations, in business, providing

health care, doing so much for our country. That's what powered us to be the mightiest, most prosperous, most successful country on earth. Driving them away is only going to harm all Americans. Shame on Donald Trump. Fortunately, less than 24 hours, the court said this is complete, unconstitutional, illegal garbage. They've frozen it and rightly so. This will never succeed. So we should send a message because some of these foreign students at Harvard and elsewhere who are discouraged and chilled and they're the attempted targets of bullying. Don't listen to Donald Trump. The Constitution and the courts will protect you. You are welcome in the United States. States. As the Harvard alum, you're welcome at Harvard. Come on in. We got your back. Brian,

I'm also working with some Harvard students to make sure they're well protected. We have your back and the Constitution has your back. Norm, when Trump brings forward a lawsuit like this one against Harvard, and it's such an open and shut case, it is so blatantly unconstitutional, so easily dismissible by these judges, so easy to overturn. Does that make his subsequent efforts in the court that much less potent because judges can see, at least from an atmospheric perspective, how frivolous the lawsuits that they're bringing forward are and how unsurious of a litigant him and his White House is? Brian, the story of Trump's first 120 days plus has been he's losing.

The courts have seen that he has no intention of continuing the American democracy project. He wants to instill a dictatorship here. This is one of the clearest acts yet. They're fed up with him, and that's why you see them giving him less and less credit. He's lost over 150 times. We've never seen anything like that in American history. Judges of both parties losing patience with him. all of his nominees at the United States Supreme Court seven to two just last week.

They said, you've got to give due process to migrants who are here. You can't abduct and expel them. And they said in that opinion, Brian, your exact point, because you haven't brought a Brago-Garcia back, they said, we're going to apply extra protections. They're applying extra pressure to him. They're fed up, and they should be. going to get worse for Donald Trump in the courts from here on out. Well, Norm, you have been on the front lines of this fight,

bringing as many lawsuits against this administration as anybody there is. So very appreciative of your actions here. Norm, I appreciate the work that you and your team are doing. Brian, thanks for letting me share that work with you and your audience, and always a privilege. Thanks again to Elizabeth Warren and Norm Eisen. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week.

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