No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Republicans' most potent Biden attack goes up in flames

Episode Date: January 21, 2024

Brian offers advice for those of you contending with complaints about Joe Biden’s age. He's joined by one of the three hosts of the new MSNBC show, The Weekend, Symone Sanders-Townsend, about what we should look out for in the New Hampshire primary, what she thinks about the warning signs regarding Trump’s performance in Iowa, and her reaction as a longtime campaign official to low Biden polling right now.Donate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about my advice for those of you contending with complaints about Joe Biden's age, and I interview one of the three hosts of the new MSNBC show The Weekend, Simone Sanders Townsend, about what we should look for in the New Hampshire primary, what she thinks about the warning signs regarding Trump's performance in Iowa and her reaction as a longtime campaign official to low Biden polling right now. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So I know a lot of listeners, like me, are encountering the right-wing talking point that's really broken through here, and that is...

This idea that Joe Biden is too old. Andrew Yang and Dean Phillips are out there validating Republican attacks by repeating it for their own self-important reasons. So here's my response to that, and hopefully this can be helpful. And this is for anyone, by the way, who recognizes the dangers of a second Trump term.

Like, if you're pro-Trump, then this will mean nothing to you. But I know that there are well-intentioned Democrats and independents and even pro-democracy Republicans who are earnestly trying to navigate this issue. So if you recognize the dangers of a Trump presidency. And you are using this important moment where we are literally teetering on the

brink of autocracy to perpetuate right-wing talking points about Biden's age. If that's what you're doing with this time, then you are helping usher in the very future that you claim to want to avoid. Like, there's this cognitive dissonance in which Joe Biden is supposedly too old to do the job that he is literally excelling at right now. Like, look at the economy. The most jobs ever added in a single term, the stock market at a record high, consumer sentiment is surging, wage growth is exceeding inflation. The quarterly GDP is exceeding 5%. We have the fastest recovery of any G7 country. Republicans are out there pretending that Trump ran a strong economy. The guy lost three million jobs. Biden has added 14.5 million. This is the economy that Republicans would

kill to run on. Then there's the legislative wins. You got the Chips Act, the Pact Act, inflation reduction act, the American Rescue Plan, the infrastructure law, the gun safety law, marriage equality, canceling billions in student loan debt. Biden is the most legislative accomplished president of our lifetimes. He turned Trump-era punchlines into real successes. Successes, by the way, for regular working-class Americans. Donald Trump delivered a tax cut to millionaires and billionaires. That's it.

Just this week, Biden unveiled the proposal to slash overdraft fees from $35 down to $3. Only one of these guys is looking out for normal folks, and it is not the guy on the Forbes billionaire list. And of course, that's to say nothing of Biden having presided over special election wins, midterm cycle wins, 2023, off-year cycle wins. People keep writing Democrats and Joe Biden off, and they keep winning regardless.

So taken together, the economic successes, the legislative successes, the electoral successes, as far as Joe Biden's age is concerned, what else would you like to see him do differently that he isn't doing now? Like a kickflip on a skateboard?

What I'm trying to say is that when people say that Joe Biden is too old, he's already proving by his actions that clearly it's not an impediment. 14.5 million jobs says he's not. The most accomplished legislative presidency says he's not. The fact that Democrats keep winning election after election, even though those elections are often a referendum on the president himself,

says he's not. So instead of claiming that you don't think Biden would be able to effectively serve as president, the best antidote to that is to literally look at what he's doing right now as president. And look, of course you'll hear this. You'll hear while Republicans are attacking him on his age. Of course they are. They'll attack Democrats for anything. They said Obama was a Muslim.

They said Hillary was too emotional. They said Gavin Newsom is too slick. They will always have something to attack Democrats on. It's not like if we just choose someone else that they'll get a free pass. I mean, come on, let's not be Charlie Brown with the football here. The next person will have something else that we'd hear about on an endless loop.

If we predicate our support for Democrats based on Republican framing, we won't be able to support anyone. Republicans don't get to define reality, so we shouldn't cave to their attempts to do exactly that. So look, I understand that there's, are well-intentioned people out there who are just concerned that Biden is too old. I get it.

Trust me. But I'm speaking as plainly and practically as I can. If you're worried about democracy, then this time right now, where, very importantly, Americans' opinions are going to be formed over the next 10 months, do not parrot right-wing talking points about Biden's age, but instead focus on the contrast between the two inevitable nominees, Joe Biden, who, yes, is old and Donald Trump, who is also old, but whose election would signal the end of democracy as we know it. I know there are people who wish it was someone else who don't understand how in a country of 350 million people these are our choices. I hear you. But again, these are the inevitable nominees. And so in this imperfect reality that we find ourselves in, let's do what we need to do to make sure that we have a democracy to vote in in 2028. Next up is my interview with Simone Sanders.

Now we've got the former national press secretary in 2016 for Bernie Sanders, senior advisor to both Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, and now. one-third of the trio that makes up MSNBC's new show The Weekend, which airs 8 to 10 a.m. Eastern on Saturdays and Sundays, Simone Sanders Townsend, thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you for having me. It's always great to chat with you, live from my office. So we are now days away from the New Hampshire primary. There are two outcomes here.

Basically, Nikki Haley wins, or she comes in second to Donald Trump. In both of those scenarios, what does it mean for Trump? Like, give us the explainer on what to look out. for here? Well, yeah, I would say she, I would, yeah, there's two scenarios. Well, maybe three, actually. She wins. She comes in a very close second, like within 10, let's just say maybe even 15 points. Sign of the times that a close second is 15 points away. Right. No other circumstances with 15 points even be close. It would be a blowout. But like 15, I would say 10 is legitimately close, but 15 they might give it to her. Or the third scenario is the numbers hold in all of the

polling that we've seen, and from the antidotes that we've seen coming out, and Donald Trump, it's a blowout. She's a very distant second. And I think in the last scenario, the primary is essentially over. And Nikki Haley has no where else to go. She's not participating in the Nevada state party run caucuses. And that's an important point, because that is the way in which deliates will be allocated. She'll be on the primary ballot in Nevada. Well, can't get delegates off the primary ballot. And then in South Carolina, where she was the governor, Donald Trump is poised to beat her there. And I just want to give folks a little history and some data. There have only been two presidents in our modern history who have lost their home state

in a general election and went on to be the president. Donald Trump is one of them, New York, and Richard Nixon as the other, California. There has never been a nominee for either party, Democrat or Republican, that has lost their home state in a primary. gone on to be the nominee. So the math is not mathing for the former governor if the third scenario holds. If the second scenario holds and she comes in a close second, then there is viability. And I say that because that means that people within the Republican Party apparatus within the primary, okay, are going to start taking a look and say, oh, well, maybe Nikki Haley is actually competitive, not just performatively or proverbially competitive, right? Maybe there is

someone they can't compete with Donald Trump. There are MAGA voters. You know, Brian, we talk about them all the time. Maga voters are about 35, maybe 40 percent of the Republican Party electorate. That still leaves 60, 65 percent of voters out there. Or in the scenario where she wins, then really people are, then it really kicks into gear. I don't, I don't think the first scenario is more likely. I think that we are really looking at a scenario where it could potentially be over in New Hampshire, come over in this primary come Tuesday, because I just don't think that Haley campaign has understood New Hampshire and the state and, frankly, what the voters across the border are looking for. Voters want somebody that inspires them in some way, shape, or form.

Whatever you feel about any past Republican Party nominee or Democratic Party nominee, someone has felt they were inspirational somewhere in some way, shape, or form. Because people have felt like moved that this is the person that could change, change the game for me and my life and my family. You have to give people something. You have to give them that. And Nikki Haley is given pundit. You know, my audience is largely Democratic. For Democrats out there, the ideal situation is that this primary drags on that Trump is forced to spend time and money fighting other Republicans as opposed to being able to pivot

to the general. How would that happen? Like, what makes it most likely that this primary does continue to drag on? You need the second scenario. The second scenario where the former governor of South Carolina comes to, in a close second to Donald Trump for whatever reason, right? People are saying that a number of Democrats

may come out and cast ballots for Nikki Haley in the Republican primary because they can do that in New Hampshire. Whatever. Whatever needs to happen, Nikki Haley has to be competitive in order for this to drag on. I, there's a path, there is a, you know, a path

a chance when I used to work for Senator Sanders. I used to always say there is a path. The path is narrow, but there is a path. There is a path and the path is narrow. But I think the more likely scenario is that the former president, Donald Trump, is actually spending his time and what little talents he may have between now and the summer, the Republican National Convention, in court. And we already saw him leave Iowa. And instead of flying straight to New Hampshire, which is what candidates usually do after Iowa, win, lose, or draw. He flew to New York because he was he was in court for a civil case. E. Jean Carroll, a defamation case where

E. Jean Carroll is seeking a woman that a jury has already found that he, they found him liable for rape and liable against her. And E. Jean Carroll is seeking more money in a civil case because Donald Trump won't stop defaming her and telling lies about her. There are more court cases. There's Jack Smith's case. Judge Tanya Chuck Kent. She is the judge presiding over that case. slated for March to start early March, it may set back a little bit, but these are things that are going to happen. So I think the more likely scenario is that Donald Trump, I think the courtroom has become a part of the campaign for him. And this is a year where our legal and our political are not just parallel. They are very much so intertwined in a way for a presidential

campaign that they have not been in a very long time. And actually never, because We never had a president running for, we never had a former president of the United States of America who was twice impeached, right, run for re-election, who was currently facing 91 indictments and four criminal charges, one of which for his participation in a attempted coup because he lost an election. It sounds like a plot out of the craziest movie on 2B I have ever not seen, but it is actually real life. We would see this and we would say the writer's room has jumped the shark, but here we are. Simone, how worrisome do you think it is that Donald Trump, who is the purported second coming of Christ in the Republican base,

only got 50% of the primary vote in Ruby Red Iowa? Like, is this a harbinger of a fractured coalition on the right? Or is this, you know, just totally normal and we'll see the inevitable reversion to the mean in the end? If these were the Democrats, I would have seen a lot of headlines on Wednesday that it would have said, Democrat, on Tuesday, it said Democrats in disarray. Of course. Fractured, Fractured, dim, dim party. Simone, we see those headlines regardless.

We see those headlines regardless. You don't need anything to happen for those headlines to happen. That's the default. I mean, it's really, it is, I can't say enough. It's insane. But I think people should know two things. One, the last time the Republican Party had a competitive primary process was in 2016. And Donald Trump, he was.

lost the Iowa caucuses that time, but in 2016, 180,000 voters came out to vote in the Iowa caucuses. That was a low, that was a low number. This year, 110,000 voters came out to vote in the Iowa caucuses. So a substantial, what that's, a 70,000 people drop off from 2016. And of those people that came out, these are the most activist of activist supporters, Only less than 5% of the voters in the entrance polls, because in Iowa in the caucuses, you have interest polls, not exit polls in the Republican caucuses. In the entrance polls, less than 5%, I think it was something like 3% identified as independents or not conservatives, right? So this is a ruby red. The people that came out were the most activist of activist Republicans. One could argue the MAGA supporters. That's why the majority of people who were polled in the interest polls said that they did not believe that Joe Biden actually won the 2020 election, right? That's a conspiracy theory. Obviously, he did. Obviously, he's a sitting president right now. Kamala Harris is the vice president. But the people that believe that are also the people that believe that, you know,

Trump is the best thing since sliced bread. So I say that to say that Iowa is not the, I don't think it's the barometer for any electorate, Republican or Democrat, Republican or Democrat. I really think that in the primary process, you have to take the first four states as a whole, right? They are each important pieces to a larger pie. And the difference between, one of the biggest differences between Iowa and New Hampshire is independence. There's a substantial amount of independence in New Hampshire. The New Hampshire electorate is older. The Iowa electorate is more conservative.

They're more a white evangelical Christian, which is a very particular subset of a, of a, of a, of, of a, of, of, of, a, of, of, of, of, of, a, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, a, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, a. a faith-based group. So in an Iowa, as opposed to New Hampshire. One in five residents in New Hampshire is over the age of 65. So to me, hello, that says conversations about Social Security and Medicare, they are quite important. And candidates who are talking about raising the retirement age are not necessarily speaking to the breadth and depth of the electric. Wink, wink, wink, Nikki Haley. So I think that Nevada is important. I think that South Carolina is important. And then again, super Tuesday is where the majority of delegates are awarded. If there were a, a, a, competitive and active Democratic primary process, Super Tuesday would also be very important.

But I would tell you the same thing that you have to take the first four states as a whole. The problem here is we're not going to get to a Nevada and South Carolina being relevant because none of the candidates in this Republican primary outside of Chris Christie. And I would also, a former governor Chris Christie and former Arkansas governor, Aza Hutchinson, demonstrated that they were willing to compete with Donald Trump, willing to attack him. You do not win a race without being willing to compete. It is a competition. And the lack of competition here is why we're seeing what we're seeing.

You know, you get what you vote for in this democracy. Well, you know, Joe Biden's polling right now is sagging. I'm very much of the mind that the hysterics about Joe Biden are the natural inclination of a media ecosystem that kind of needs some drama of a close race or an imminent Trump victory. You were on the campaign side for a long time. what would you say about Biden's standing right now, 11 months out, given your past experience? I would say that, one, it is early, but two, not too early to pay attention. And I say that to say that the polling needs be taken with a grain of salt right now, especially if we are talking about drilled down polls like battleground state polling 11 months

out from an election. That is, you know, polls are a snapshot in time about how voters feel. And I think that the polling as throughout the summer is more indicative about how voters really feel in the lead up to November 2024. And really, frankly, people need to be looking towards, you know, late September, October because of early voting in many of these battleground states. That's why that summer polling, that last August poll is very important right before Labor Day. But I think that people should so pay, they should be concerned. It's not too early to be a little concerned to pay attention. And I say that to say the numbers around as it relates to younger voters, the numbers as it relates to black voters, particularly black women and black men, Latino voters, particularly Latino men, they are there. It's a warning sign. It's like a yellow light. It's like, hey, hey, all right. You come around that binge. You might need to slow down a little bit. Take a look because there's still time to fix it. And I just, I saw the vice president, Vice President Harris on The View this week. And she talked about a,

A lot of, she talked about her travels as she's been going around the country talking to people, which I think that is a very important thing for the Biden-Harris campaign apparatus, separate from the Biden-Campaign White House, from the Biden-Harris White House, but the Biden-Harris campaign apparatus, it's very important because she's going out of the bubble to hear from people. And one of the things she also gave in that interview was, I think, a very nuanced, but I hear you and we are listening answer when it came to the question. of the toll that the Israel Hamas war conflict is taking on the Palestinian people, innocent people who live in the Gaza Strip, who have nowhere to go, who have just been, their homes have been

decimated. And she was asked about young people's reservations about and concerns about the Biden administration and voting for Joe Biden again because of that. And she gave a good answer. And frankly, I think that that is what it is going to take. You're going to have to hear from people, hear their concerns, and then you have to be responsive to them. And that's what works in campaigns. It really does. We're in a moment right now where everything in the political space is hyper-polarized. How would you suggest, again, from your past experience, they like break through where it feels to a lot of us like anything that's actually said doesn't matter because everybody's already

retreated into their camps? Yeah, I mean, I think that, Brian, don't you kind of feel like that's a function of, first of all, We are all way too online, right? Like, Twitter is not real life. I love it. It's not real life. Only a fraction, especially now given, with a site formerly known as Twitter, especially now given how it is being run, a fraction of the American people are on that website,

a fraction of folks are on Instagram, a fraction of folks are on Facebook. And so if we are making political decisions, if campaigns are making political decisions, living and dying by, you know, what's in the comments, that's not a place you ever want to be. You got to be responsive to the people. That is why traveling, getting out there, hearing from folks, town halls, it matters. And in my experience from the time that I worked campaigns, it is there is always a stark disconnect. Always, a stark disconnect in what I read, what I would read on the national papers, on the front pages of the national papers, and what the local papers would say. What sometimes the conversations would be on cable news and what the local news is saying, what the people.

are saying on the internet and what the people in the diners or in the barbershops or, you know, the folks at that town hall are saying and thinking. And that is the barometer here. And I think that the majority of the American people, I know folks like to say the majority of people are in the middle. Now, I think the majority of people have real clear thoughts about what they believe. I don't actually believe the majority of people are in the middle. But I do believe that the majority of people, they just want to be able to make enough food to put, make enough money to put food on their table. You know, the majority of people are like, well, who, who, who, who, Who was going to do something about the fact that I don't have, if I live in Tar, if I, prior to the American Rescue Plan, if I lived in Tar Hill, North Carolina, we were all using Dial-Up Internet. Okay, but thanks to the American Rescue Plan and Governor Roy Cooper and Joe Biden, now they've laid fiber optic cables and we don't have dial-up anymore. Why does that matter? Because maybe I want to stream church.

Maybe, because I live in a rural area. Maybe I want my grandkids be able to come over and do their home. work. Maybe there are all of these things. Maybe I want to be able to have a telemedicine appointment because my, the nearest hospital is a 45 minute drive away and I can't get an appointment. There are all of these real things. And by the way, the story I just told it real. Joe Biden told that story when he was in North Carolina this week, right? So I think that it is more about, you have to speak directly to the heart of what people care about. And people care about being able to get, you know, affordable internet connection to your community. People

care about, you know, not having a random politician in a state capital that they haven't been to, tell them what to do with their bodies and overruled and try to overrule their doctor. People care about freedoms. I don't know about you, but I care about not living under president as a dictator. So I think we have to get to a space and place, frankly, in our country where we can just have real conversation. I think far too many people are, we are reinforcing only tuning into what it is that we think we like. And there's literally buttons all over whatever social media sites you want where you could self-select out things that you don't agree with

and people in positions you don't like. And what I do like about what we are able to do on the weekend on our show is we are three, you know, people with very diverse backgrounds, but also diverse ideology. And so sometimes I'm sitting at the table and Michael Steele, former chairman of the RNC, is saying something that I'm like, I don't know, but okay, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't have heard otherwise if Michael still wasn't sitting there talking to me. Sometimes I say something the same and Alicia's like, hmm, well, okay,

well. So this is, this is a, I think that we are frankly indicative of the kind of conversations that are actually, that are actually happening across the country. And that's, that's what campaigns, and I think leadership needs to be, needs to be responsive to, not the loudest voices that are often the minority, but rather the majority of opinion out there. Right. The ones loud enough to break through, but they don't actually represent the vast majority or any semblance of a majority of people. By the way, to your point on what's being offered to Americans,

that dichotomy was put on display perfectly just this past week when Donald Trump came on stage during one of his rallies or something, and he was warning about the dangers of banks being able to debank people. And he kept going on and on about debanking people, which is, you know, for somebody who has the best words, is a nonsensical word. But it was higher than the best people, of course. But it was, but it was in response to this story to this story about how banks are targeting conservative influencers and how Enrique Atario, for example, the leader of the proud boys, was lost his accountant like J.P. Morgan or something like that. And so Donald Trump came out on stage with his list of grievances, including particular. protecting the leaders of far-right extremist groups from having their bank accounts taken away.

That's what his priority is on stage in the immediate lead-up to the New Hampshire primary. And meanwhile, you look at what Joe Biden just did this week with regard to banking, and that was to unveil a proposal to lower overdraft fees from $35 down to $3. If you are the leader of a far-right extremist group, Donald Trump does seem to be your guy. He's out there on the campaign trail advocating for you if you lead a far-right extremist group. who wants your bank account protected. But if you're one of the people who falls into the other bucket of not being leaders of far-right extremist groups

and you don't want overdraft fees to exceed, forget about $35, but $3, then that seems like a much better option. And so I think those two things being put on display on the same week in the same topic really does kind of present the difference that we're looking at as we move toward November. I agree. Brian, can I just say this is why I love all the things that you do.

Because you put the things out there. And I think that as I think the media apparatus as a whole, as folks are still working through just how to deal with, you know, a twice indicted ex-president who is facing 91 counts for criminal charges, who just will literally say anything and says it with conviction and people believe it's true. I just think it's really important that we do present what Donald Trump is saying. I had a colleague say to me recently that the COVID briefings were the best thing to ever happen for Americans during the Trump years. And I thought about it.

And I said, well, why? And they said because people could see the crazy for themselves. They could literally see what they could literally see the split screen as you just talked about, about how what is happening in their lives and what is happening to them and how the government and their president is talking about it and handling it. And, and I think that there is this, and I understand the concern, but we have to talk about, people often say, well, why do you all talk about Trump so much? Well, the man is the leading candidate in the Republican presidential nominating contest. And he could be reelected. This is not a, we're not, we're not hyping it like he could be reelected.

And so I think we need to responsibly frame and put context around the things that Donald Trump says and does because he, he's serious. And I just, I appreciate that you do that. And I think that's why you are one of the voices that we just love it in Mississippi and why, you know, we've got all these partnerships and things that we do together because this is what we, you know, we're all about creating the context for people because the viewers, we're just advocates for the viewers here. And they, I want people to, I want people to vote. I believe that there should be two, at least two strong political parties in this country. I just, I will hope people don't want to vote for a dictator. but damn it, just vote.

But people have to be informed. And some of the craziest things that Donald Trump is saying, people don't even know about. Yeah, I completely agree. I go through this a lot where people say, like, why platform him? But, like, Donald Trump's got 100% name ID. I'm not doing him any, I'm not doing him any, I'm not introducing him to, like, some subset of the audience that somehow doesn't know who Donald Trump is. At this point, I think it's, I think it is more valuable that people hear the crazy for

themselves, especially, like, you know, whether it's the dangerous stuff, which there's been no shortage of, you know, this idea that he has complete and total immunity to do whatever he wants to have power unchecked as president, or the stupid stuff, that this guy is at the same time that he's saying that Joe Biden is in cognitive decline. He thinks that World War II hasn't happened yet. He thinks that Jeb Bush got us involved in the war in the Middle East. He thinks that debanking is a thing. Like, I mean, the list goes on and on and on. So I think that his words kind of do him no favors, whether it's in the courtroom or the media. But I don't think we help ourselves by burying our heads in the sand and pretending that he isn't saying the things

that he is very clearly saying. But I do want to talk for a moment about your show because, you know, the media right now is a huge player in politics, just, you know, just as important as the candidates themselves, I think, and arguably more important than the media has ever been. What do you hope to do with your new show? Look, I think the weekend for us, the weekend is a place where we want people to come, they can start their, you know, Saturday, Sunday morning with us. And they're just not getting a rehash of what happened this past week, right? What they are getting is context analysis. We're going to peel back the layers and we're going to, we are presenting the conversation

that people should be having around the issues and hopefully introducing new perspectives about that conversation. And in a time where there is so much misinformation and disinformation at the start of such a very consequential election season where the legal and the political is all intertwined up and through this whole situation. You've got three voices

that are very familiar to the MSNBC audience, myself, Elisi Menendez, Michael Steele, who have, again, three different perspectives who are just three experienced people to help you unpack it all. And if at the end of the day, people walk away from watching our show

saying, oh, I didn't think about, I didn't think about the immunity claim that way. Oh, that's a story that I didn't necessarily hear. Oh, I'm glad they explained what is the Chevron doctrine and why does that even matter? Because I didn't understand, but this seems like something we should be paying attention to. Or, oh, Governor Moore made a really important point about democracy on the weekend last week. And that's something I want to think about. People walk away gathering some nugget of information from what we did. I think we've done our jobs. We are here to be advocates for the viewer to foster, you know, conversation.

You know, we challenge each other, make each other thing. And I just frankly think it's a good, great television. Although we're talking about weighty subjects, we have fun. And I think if you're going to get up as early as we get up on the weekends now and sit around the table, it's got to be a little fun and it should be with some good people. And I'm glad that we've got both. Well, good people is exactly what it is. So again, that is the weekend.

It airs on MSNBC Saturday and Sunday, 8 to 10 a.m. Eastern. Simone, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. Always great to see you, Brian. Thanks again to Simone. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app.

Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels. Thank you.