No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Texas Democrats fight back

Episode Date: July 18, 2021

Texas Democrats fled the state to block Republicans from passing a voter suppression bill and finally held a highly-anticipated meeting with Joe Manchin. Brian interviews one of the Texas Democrats himself, James Talarico, about his viral interview with a Fox News host, his response to Ted Cruz’s criticism, and the likelihood of him and his colleagues getting arrested if they returned home. And Brian talks with epidemiologist and host of the podcast "America Dissected" Dr. Abdul el-Sayed about COVID and whether Republicans are ultimately just hurting themselves by opposing the vaccine.Support Texas Democrats by donating here: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/texaswalkoutDonate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Texas Democrats fleeing the state to block Republicans from passing their voter suppression bill and what came of a highly anticipated meeting with Joe Manchin. I interview one of the Texas Democrats himself, James Tellerico, about his viral interview with a Fox News host, his response to Ted Cruz's criticism, and the likelihood of he and his colleagues getting arrested if they return home. And finally, I sit down with epidemiologist Dr. Abdul al-Sayed to talk about COVID and whether Republicans are ultimately just hurting themselves by opposing the vaccine.

I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So yet again, Texas Democrats have been forced to break quorum, this time leaving the state during a special legislative session called by Republican Governor Greg Abbott, who is hell-bent on passing his party's voter suppression bill. The Texas delegation went to Washington, D.C., to put pressure on national Democrats to pass the For the People Act, which would protect against some of the worst effects of the bill in Texas. Meanwhile, Texas Republicans have ordered a call of the House, which are, authorizes Department of Public Safety Troopers in the state to arrest members of the state

House who break quorum. And Governor Greg Abbott has even said outright that they will be arrested, but so long as they're in D.C., they're safe since Texas's troopers don't have jurisdiction outside of the state. Now, something else that Governor Abbott did was veto the legislature's funding as a way to put pressure on these Democrats to, you know, relent and let the bill pass. That's right. The party of small government, in the state of small government, just saw one branch's executive the more than 2,000 employees of another branch, their salaries and health insurance, all because he didn't get to pass his voter suppression bill

that would rig the rules of the game for his own party. And this isn't really even going to impact the lawmakers. They make $600 a month. That's $7,000 a year. The people who this is going to impact are their staffs. Are the custodians, cafeteria workers, parking attendants, landscapers, and every other employee who relies on this funding to survive.

That's who Abbott is using as a bargaining chip until he gets what he wants. But what's most shameless about this whole process is that Republicans are rallying behind what their branding and election integrity bill. Even though labeling it an integrity bill suggests that there's some lack of integrity in the process right now,

that there was some type of widespread nefarious behavior in the process, which there wasn't. And that's not just me saying there wasn't. The issue was already litigated in more than 60 court cases, including in front of a number of judges who Trump himself appointed and at no point in even a single case were they able to prove fraud. Trump's own DOJ and DHS said there was no fraud.

Republican secretaries of state said there was no fraud. Recounts and audits confirmed there was no fraud. So to suggest that in an election where the results were correctly counted, that somehow on some planet the thing was illegitimate is to pretend that none of those things happened. And that's what this is. It's pretending. It is a coordinated effort by most Republicans to repeat and promote the big lie that the election was stolen. even in the absence of a modicum of evidence,

because so long as they can manipulate their supporters into believing there was fraud, they can continue using that as a pretext to pass laws that will make it more difficult for people to vote who typically cast ballots for Democrats. They are lying about an election being rigged as a justification to then rig the next election for themselves. And beyond that, just look at the bill.

Banning 24-hour voting is not election integrity. Ending drive-through voting is not election integrity, imposing new restrictions and paperwork requirements on individuals who help disabled voters and non-English speakers cast a ballot and making it harder for election officials to remove partisan poll watchers who harass and intimidate voters, and imposing criminal penalties on election officials and volunteers who commit even a minor violation of the state's election law does nothing to preserve the integrity of voting. None of those provisions should be passed by any legislature even mildly committed to voting rights.

The point here is making it more difficult to vote. vote. But of course, Republicans will point to the fact that they've removed provisions that were included in previous versions of the bill, including a provision that would have shut down a number of polling precincts where predominantly black voters live, and another that would have ended early voting on Sunday mornings when black churches sponsor souls to the polls. And they'll point to these as a sign of compromise. But like, it's not a compromise to just take out the single most abhorrent provisions of a bill. Taking out those provisions should be the bare minimum Like, imagine somebody robbing you and telling you they want your phone and your wallet.

And then they're like, okay, look, look, I'll tell you what, let's compromise. Just give me your wallet. That's not a win for you. That's making something shitty, just marginally less shitty. The bill that's been reintroduced in this special session is a marginally less shitty bill that is still wholly unwarranted and unnecessary. Now, the fact that these Texas Democrats are in D.C. is the only thing preventing the Republicans bill from passing, but it's not a permanent

solution. Abbott has the power to call unlimited special legislative sessions, and so while it won't work this time, he can call another one the day after this one ends. And if the Democrats flee the state that time, he can call another one after that, meaning that the situation isn't sustainable, but it was never meant to be. The whole point of this exercise is to put pressure on national Democrats who clearly aren't meeting this moment, because here's the deal. We can screw around with our legislative priorities and win some victories in the short term, but Republicans have their attention trained on consolidating power for years beyond this. Like, they're focused on ensuring that states are so gerrymandered

that there's no way the Democrats could win the House, meaning that zero, zero legislation gets passed ever again. And that would be the whole ballgame, which is why every day not spent fighting back against these anti-democratic efforts is a day wasted. And that's not to say that the American Rescue Plan wasn't monumentally important or that the American Jobs Plan or the American Families Plan aren't going to fundamentally change this country

because they will. But unless we're okay with this being the Democrats' final legislative achievement, then we need to wake the fuck up and recognize that passing an infrastructure bill isn't going to magically win us the House when Republicans have mathematically engineered congressional districts in such a way that Democrats will have the least representation humanly possible. The Texas Democrats seem to understand this, and yet somehow there are national Democrats who don't. Somehow there are national Democrats who have the power to do something to quite literally save this country from the greatest threat to democracy in our lifetimes, and their priority is some arcane Senate procedural tool and the non-existent promise of bipartisanship

from a party that doesn't want it, from a party whose public statements sound like this. 100% of my focus is on stopping this new administration. And yet despite all of this, according to reporting, these Texas Democrats met with Joe Manchin on Thursday and he shot down the prospect of a carve-out. to the filibuster for voting rights legislation, insisting instead that some iteration of a voting rights bill could pass with 60 votes. He suggested that the reason that the For the People Act failed to get 60 votes before was that it was too comprehensive. He said, quote, they had a bill that's 800 pages long. They've had everything thrown at them. And so he's calling

for more bare bones legislation instead. But why Joe Manchin thinks that Republicans would support anything substantive is beyond me, when they are quite literally the instigators of this anti-democratic legislation around the country. Like, it's like partnering with termites to protect wood. And yet, with that said, our only option right now is to continue pushing this. That's it. We have a 50-50 Senate and mansion is number 50, but we won't get there without trying. So good on these Texas Democrats for forcing the issue.

If what it takes is an entire delegation of Democrats who left behind their families and homes and jobs to finally force these holdouts to at least pay attention, to at least take a meeting, then so be it. And at a time when the coming months will determine what this country looks like for a decade or more, the importance of what they're doing can't be overstated. But with that said, it's not free to have flown to D.C., it's not free to live in a hotel, it's not free to have to feed an entire delegation of people every day. And at a salary, again, of $600 a month, these Texas Democrats can't do this alone.

I started in Act Blue this past week to raise money for the Texas House Democratic campaign committee. I'll put a link in the episode notes. So if you recognize just how important what these people are doing, then please help support them. Because right now, this is far and away the most significant fight that we're facing, and the people fighting it need our help. Having said that, my guest today is one of those Texas representatives, James Telerico. Today we have a member of the Texas House of Representatives, James Telerico, who's currently in Washington, D.C., after leaving the state to deprive Republicans of the quorum needed to pass their voter suppression bill.

So, James, thank you for coming back on. Thanks for having me on. You have been busy from MSNBC to Fox. You're everywhere. Yeah, you know, it's been a whirlwind. Obviously, I prefer to be back home, and not in Washington, D.C., but the Republicans in our state gave us really no other option, but to leave to defeat that voter suppression bill. Well, so there's a lot to talk about here.

First of all, are you in other Texas Democrats at risk of being arrested if you, go back to Texas now? And if and when you wait out the special legislative session, does that risk go away? So yes, we're at risk for being arrested. In fact, the governor has promised to arrest us. So it's almost a certainty. That's what happened. That's what would happen if we cross state lines to go back into Texas. You know, this is the same governor that introduced this voter suppression bill in the first place to appease Donald Trump and his big lie. It's the same governor that canceled the entire legislative branch of Texas state government by defunding our staffs and the resources we need to operate. And it's the same governor who is now threatening to put

legislators in handcuffs. I mean, sometimes it's hard to believe this is all happening in the United States of America, right? It sounds like something you would have seen in another country, another time. And it's a slow-moving crisis, so it's easy to kind of become desensitized all of this and to just accept it, but we really can't do that. Otherwise, we're at risk of losing this entire Democratic project. I know that the intention isn't to leave Texas forever, but eventually Abbott's going to call a special legislative session, which he has the power to do unlimited times, and you won't have the numbers to win that vote. And so the goal here is to get national Democrats to step up and figure out a way to pass the For the People Act. But with that said,

are you prepared to leave again if you find yourselves in a similar situation, and we haven't quite gotten there yet you know i think quorum breaking is always going to be in our toolbox um it always has to be on the table obviously we try to reserve it for the most egregious abuses of power um you and i have talked about the fact that we don't we don't break quorum all the time we lost a vote on a ban uh on abortion in the state of texas last session we lost a vote on permitless carry of handguns. We lost votes on on all types of really important policy topics, but we didn't break quorum. We fought the good fight. We lost. We dusted ourselves off and got back to it the next day. The reason, as we have talked about, the reason we broke quorum on voting rights

is because voting rights is not an issue like every other issue. It is foundational. It is essential. It underpins all those other issues. Without it, we can't have this discussion in the first the first place. You know, I think my little sister, I have a little sister, her name is Madeline, and she's like a right brain person. She's very analytical. She's an accountant. She's really good with money. And when we were little, she loved to play Monopoly. And she was super good at it. And I lost like every time we played. And I would be in like all this debt because she was really good at Monopoly. And I played because, you know, I'm a good big brother and I wanted to make her happy. But if she had tried in the middle of a game to change the rules of Monopoly,

would have stopped playing, right? And that's what's happening here. The Republicans are trying to rig the rules of the game in their favor. And that's why we took the extraordinary step of walking out, breaking quorum, and disrupting the entire legislative process. If we allow the Republicans do this here, then this entire American experiment will start to unravel. That's perfectly put. And a warning to Madeline out there, not to try anything. I'm so glad I got to embarrass her on this podcast. I will send her, I'm going to send her the link as is this up. So look, I know that a group of Texas Democrats have now met with Joe Manchin. So what can you tell me about that meeting? Because obviously, I mean, you know, that's what

this all comes down to. Yeah, the meeting was surprisingly positive and productive. The delegation we sent to meet with Mansion, you know, we selected our members very carefully. It was members who, you know, shared similar politics to Senator Manchin and could talk with them from that same perspective. And so they hit it off from what we hear. And Senator Manchin is very sympathetic to our cause. And he's a former Secretary of State in West Virginia. And so he believes in voting rights. And he wants to pass a voting rights bill. The issue is what's included and how expansive and how wide is the scope of this piece of legislation. But I think there was some movement on the fact that we can take steps to prevent something like what's about to pass in Texas

from becoming state law. And honestly, this is not an abstraction to us. Our constituents are having their rights undermined as we speak. As you and I speak right now, my constituents are at risk of losing their God-given right at the ballot box. And so I need something to pass that's going to protect them. That is my job as a state rep. I have to serve them.

And so if we can't get the full loaf this time, I'm going to settle for whatever I can get to ensure that this bill in Texas does. not become law. Well, look, we already know that Manchin supports some elements of the For the People Act. He's come out with a list of provisions that he is supportive of. But the issue, even if we do manage to get a pared down version of the For The People Act, is obviously the filibuster. So was that included in talks? You know, whether or not, you know, Senator Manchin, you know, is able to bring along enough Republicans to avoid the filibuster or whether an exception needs to be made is really, I don't mean to sound flippant, not my concern.

You know, I'm not a, I'm not a federal lawmaker. I have one responsibility that's to represent my constituents in Williamson County, Texas. That's my job. And I have to make sure something passes to prevent their rights from being dismantled by Texas Republicans. And so in many ways, I'm agnostic to the process. If Senator Manchin thinks he can find 10 Republicans to pass the voting rights bill, more power to him. If we have to make an exception to the filibuster for voting rights, I think that's warranted. Just like what you and I talked about,

voting rights is not like every other issue. And so an exception, I think, is something that is worth considering. But either way, we have to get something passed. We have to get something passed now, because we in Texas are out of time. We needed actually yesterday. And I hope that sense of urgency is what

we're bringing to the conversation. You know, I get the feeling that a lot of folks nationally and a lot of folks in blue states, you know, are treating this as an abstraction. treating this as a theoretical conversation, intellectual exercise. But for folks like me in Texas, my colleagues in Georgia, this is not theoretical. This is not abstract. This is not intellectual. This is very real, very tangible, very visceral. And so we need action. And the reason we came here, the reason we're doing this, is to push the entire nation to act and to act now.

Do you expect any type of announcement, any type of, you know, to basically discuss what the fruits of that meeting were? So from what I've gathered, and again, I, you know, I hate to try to get involved in Senate politics because it's not my expertise. And this is my second time to be in Washington, D.C. in my entire life. So I'm not an expert on what happens on Capitol Hill. But from when I gathered, folks wanted to get past the infrastructure conversation before really getting into the meat of this voting rights discussion, which means that our arrival here was timely.

The fact that we are here, you know, as the recess nears and the fact that the infrastructure bill has started to come to a close. And so I'm hoping that senators and leaders in the House of Representatives will now start in earnest developing what this framework will look like. No, you had an interview with Fox host Pete Hegseth. Here is a brief clip from that interview. You have made a lot of money personally, and you've enriched a lot of corporations with advertising by getting on here and spewing lies and conspiracy theories to folks who trust you.

And so what I'm asking you to do is to tell your voters right now that Donald Trump laws the election in 2020. Can you resolve the lie that is, at least you resolved the lie that is, did Democrats are now for voter ID? It's not your show, sir. But at least I, at least you resolved the idea that Democrats are not for voter ID. Real quick. Can you answer the question? Did Donald Trump lose the election in 2020? I think I'm answering questions.

I'm not, don't really feel any obligation to answer anything of you. An uncomfortable question for you? No. So clearly not super intent on answering the question whether Trump won the 2020 election. So I want to give you the floor and explain why it's so important that that was the question you asked. And I'll try really hard not to jump on top of every word you're saying. I figure that'll be a nice change of pace from Pete Hegseth's physical incapability of not hearing his own voice for more than seven seconds at a time. Well, so I'm used to local press back home in Texas, right?

And in many ways, local reporters, state reporters are so much better than the folks that you see on cable television, especially Fox News prime time. Because they're more string in a dialogue than a monologue, right? They ask you a question, they listen to your answer, and then they ask a follow-up. That obviously is what I didn't get on Fox News. I should have known better. Once I realized that that was the case, I decided to go ahead and ask them questions on my own. The reason I decided to ask about the big lie that the last election was stolen, the big lie that Donald Trump has spewed since he lost in 2020,

is because it is the heart of this entire problem. The only reason, Brian, that you and I are talking right now, besides the fact that we're friends, the only reason you and I are talking is because of the big lie. Without that, we would not be here. I wouldn't be in Washington, D.C., I'd be back home in Texas, I'd be at my desk at the state capitol working on early childhood legislation, or something that I care about to make our state better. I wouldn't be here defending some basic rights to be able to participate in democracy. The entire reason that I'm here is because one man could not accept factual reality. One man was willing to be able to be

to burn down our entire democratic system for his own ego. And until we grapple with that fact, we're not going to find our way out of this situation. And so I hope that conversation on Fox News, which was not productive in many ways, I hope the silver lining is that it has refocused us on the heart of the matter, which is this big lie that has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

Yeah, and I've repeated countless times at this point that basically, once you can get away from that, you'll take away their justification to pass all these restrictive voter suppression bills across the country because all of it's done under the pretense that the election was stolen. So once that lie is debunked, we can move on and start to, you know, all the other dominoes will fall. So, you know, I applaud you for using your time for good because clearly there wasn't going to be anything, anything any more productive than that coming out of a conversation with Pete Hexas. So did you get any feedback from the Fox audience after you went on? And if so, was any of it good?

So there was a lot of feedback, hard to tell what, how many audiences were responding. Obviously that exchange went viral and there were articles written about it. Then it was very strange because I was on other networks talking about my interview on Fox is kind of like through the looking glass. But, you know, I'm hoping what that did for the viewers of Fox is show, you know, what this network is really all about. It's about profiting off of their anger. Pete Hexeth is an educated man. He poked fun at the fact that I got a degree from Harvard,

which I'm very proud of. I grew up with a single mom who didn't get to go to college. So going to Harvard was a big deal for our family. And he poked fun at that until I realized after the show was over that he got a degree from Princeton. And so he's an educated man. He knows that Donald Trump's lie is not. based in empirical evidence. The reason he's doing this is for his own personal gain, right?

And he's making a lot of money as a Fox News primetime host and his corporate advertisers are making a lot of money. And so the people who are watching this network, including my own family members back in Texas, are being used for someone else's enrichment. And so I hope that at least we exposed that for some viewers. And if we did that, then I think my time was was well spent on that network. So after you all went to DC, you know, to move from one shining example of the Republican Party to another, after you all went to DC,

Ted Cruz criticized you guys for getting on a private chat and leaving the state. Do you think Ted Cruz is trying to get ridiculed? Because I can't think of any other reason how he, of all people, could manage to say those words. Sometimes I can't tell if it's Ted Cruz or like an SNL cast member playing Ted Cruz. He has become a caricature of himself.

The complete lack of self-awareness for him to enter into this conversation is stunning. And I hope that that contrast between my colleagues and I who left the state to serve our constituents versus Senator Cruz, who left the state to abandon his constituents, is made very clear to the people of Texas, because that's the difference between our two parties.

One is interested in their own personal gain, their own personal ambition, their own personal enrichment, and one is interested in empowering the people of Texas to achieve their fullest, God-given potential. And the contrast couldn't be starker. And I hope that we remember the next election, which party fought for Texans and which party fought for themselves.

You know, and to build on what you just said, and what people like Ted Cruz said when he called, you know, when he called this a political stunt, I can't imagine that you want to have left your homes and your families and your other jobs, you know, that you need to actually survive because as far as I know, your salary is, what, $600 a month? That's before taxes. So it's more like $400 a month. To leave all of this, to go to Washington, D.C., to beg Joe Manchin, of all people,

to do something that he's been adamant about not doing. Who would want to have to lobby Joe Manchin to do the thing that he never said he'll do and eliminate the filibuster like one hell of a vacation sign me up right i mean the amount of personal sacrifice that my colleagues have had to make to be here is is really overwhelming you know we've had colleagues who have left their children um some as you know young is just a a few months old we've had colleagues who have left um elderly parents we've had colleagues who have left sick and dying loved ones um some of whom had to leave their bedsides to be here representative uh celia israel was Postponed her wedding.

That's exactly right. She canceled her wedding and she celebrated her birthday yesterday here in a conference room in the basement of a hotel. And so those, obviously those personal sacrifices are nothing compared to the sacrifices that brave Americans made long before you and I, right, at Normandy, at Selma to protect the sacred right to vote. The thing about this though is that Joe Manchin doesn't have to sacrifice anything. He really doesn't. All he has to do is make one exception to one Senate rule to save American

democracy. It's not that hard. It's a pretty light lift. And I'm a politician, so I understand what it means to take a political risk. And this is not a substantial risk. So you have folks here that have come to the nation's capital, politicians, just like Joe Manchin, who have to get elected, who have made personal and political sacrifices to do what's right for our country. all we're asking him is to do the very same well said uh so now we're we're recording this on friday as of right now we've already raised over a hundred and twenty five thousand dollars through an act blue that goes directly to the texas house democratic campaign committee so for the almost four thousand people that donated uh can you just kind of give an indication of what those

funds are being used for well first i just want to tell you you know it's a very emotional thing to have people step up and have your back in a moment like this. This has been a tough week for us. Not only are we sleep deprived, I think I've gotten like a cumulative of 10 hours of sleep this week. You know, not only we run down, not only we're missing our families and our beloved home state of Texas, but we're also getting harassed and attacked by the far right every single day. My office has been flooded, mostly from folks out of the state of Texas who have been brutal to my team and to me and that's that's hard on a on a person you know we're all elected officials we're also human beings and this has been a very

difficult week but the fact that total strangers have signed up with this project of yours to give whatever money they have hard-earned money I'm sure to this this effort it just it really does mean a lot personally and politically and professionally so I just from the bottom of my heart just want to thank everyone who donated. And also want to thank you, Brian, because you have a lot of different competing priorities, a lot of projects you could support, and the fact that you lent your name, your credibility, your reputation to this effort means a whole lot. And you and all of your supporters are honorary Texans in my book. And I hope when all this is over, you guys come down in Texas and get some

quality barbecue with us and celebrate because you're a part of this fight now and you're in this with us. And so to answer your question, you know, that money is going to go to the HGCC, which is the entity we use as members to be able to fund different projects. This money will be used to protect our staffs, because as we mentioned during this conversation, Governor Abbott canceled the entire legislative branch of government in Texas, which means that over 2,000 staff members are going to lose their salaries, their pay, and their health insurance on September 1 of this year because of the governor's veto. And these staff members, you know, I've been talking about how hard my colleagues have been working. These staff members have been working twice as hard.

They're the ones who have orchestrated the plane tickets. They're the ones who orchestrate the meals for us to eat, the bus ride at the Capitol. They're scheduling the meetings. They're creating, they're doing the research, right? They're doing the bill analysis. These staffers are the true superheroes of this effort. And we're going to repay them by taking away their pay and health insurance that they and their families rely on. But because of your efforts, because of the efforts of your audience, we're going to be able to keep them afloat for a little while longer and biased time to see how our lawsuit against the governor in the Texas Supreme Court works out. And so you have, you and your audience are single-handedly keeping afloat an entire generation

of staff members who are standing up for democracy as we speak. I'm glad to hear that. And obviously I should note that. that the fund is still open. So for anybody watching and listening, you can find the Act Blue in the post description of this podcast, this video, wherever you're watching. So with that said, James, thank you so much, not only for taking the time to speak with me today,

but for what you and your colleagues are doing, you've got an entire country behind you and we couldn't be more appreciative of your work to really get this to the forefront and put some pressure on national Democrats who frankly haven't delivered thus far. And so we're hoping that what you guys are doing and putting, you know, your whole lives on hold to make this happen

is going to have some impact. So thank you. We all support and your friendship for keeping us going. And we thank you for the bottom our place. Thanks again to James Tellerico. Now we've got Dr. Abdul El-Sayed. He is an epidemiologist, one of the former Democratic gubernatorial candidates in Michigan, and the host of the podcast, America Dissected. Abdul, thanks so much for coming back on. Always a privilege to be with you. Thank you. So we have a lot to dig in here as far as the pandemic's concerned, especially as far as

public health goes. But first, I want to look at this from a political perspective. So if right now the vaccine protects against the variants that currently exist, then the people who really are at risk are those who aren't vaccinated, right? And so if the people who are getting sick and hospitalized and dying are virtually all unvaccinated, is this not just self-defeating for Republicans who are, you know, the primary drivers of the anti-vax movement? Like, how is this not just get sick and die to own the lives? You know, Brian, sadly, you are in your analysis largely correct on this. Ninety-nine percent of the people who are being hospitalized and dying of COVID-19 right now are people who are unvaccinated. And the way that Republican politicians

continue to politicize, continue to cast aspersions on these vaccines is opening up their supporters to what is now a preventable illness and the possibility of having to go through hospitalization, possibly even dying to make a point. And the sad truth is that what it has shown us is the sheer pessimism and cynicism of Republican politicians right now so that they can continue to rile up their base with misinformation, even though they know that it is actively putting those very people in harm's way. Right. I mean, is there ever going to come a point when the people are getting sick are exclusively and unilaterally their own voters that this will, I mean, I guess we already have an answer considering, you know, 600,000 Americans have already died and they're

still continuing to do exactly what they did before. So I guess I just answered my own question. I mean, the sad reality is that we keep trying to understand this and dissect it with the petty tools of reason when, in fact, this is a logical outcome of a set of presuppositions about where, where GOP politics is, that defies reason. And the sad reality of it is that it does so almost on purpose. A lot of this was set off during the Trump administration when he was trying to distract from his failure to handle the pandemic by basically saying that the whole thing was a hoax.

And when people start to believe the utterances of one man over all evidence to the contrary, that then opens them up to having to disbelieve any other evidence that comes afterwards. And in some respect, what the Trump administration and Trumpism and now the GOP that has fallen in line with Trumpism has had to do is in effect declare war on any form of objective evidence, whether that was the media or that is science or that is scientists and expertise. And we're starting to see the consequences of that, whether that's in Tennessee, where the Tennessee Public Health Department is now foregoing any sort of outreach on vaccines for children that are actually not even COVID. vaccines. We're talking about the regular old MMR vaccines and polio vaccines that we all took when we were children. And we're also seeing it other ways. The legislature in Michigan, for example, which is heavily Republican because of gerrymandering, is now trying to go after the state public health code, which has been in operation since 1978. And so we're seeing the war against reason and

empiricism and logic and expertise now starting to transmute beyond the pandemic, which is really quite dangerous. And you know, this is really the danger of this will he, won't he run again in terms of like what Trump is going to do in the future. Because now that there's still the prospect of Trump continuing to run in 2024, all Republicans are concerned about is rehabbing his reputation. So because this pandemic is a blight on his reputation, all you can do is continue to, like you said, pretend that this pandemic doesn't exist, that it's not as bad as they thought it was, just like in the beginning. I mean, they were pretending when it was on that cruise ship that it wasn't a big deal. They pushed back against testing and contact tracing,

against social distancing, against mask use, against every, you know, every single method that we had to protect people every step of the way. They politicized or opposed. And so, you know, this is just more of the same. This is the natural conclusion of that. Just to react to that, you know, the fear that I have is that it's not just Trump anymore. Once you have committed yourself and your movement to opposing any form of empirical logic, the risk is that you start applying that independent of the person you're trying to elect, independent of the consequences of that that system of reasoning. And you're starting to see Trump underlings, right, turn into mini-Trump's. And so, you know, I agree with you that the danger of his running again

forces the party into continuing to obfuscate facts for what seems to portend a good outcome for their chosen leader. But I worry also that even independent of Donald Trump, He has demonstrated a form of politics that will start to transfigure the party at all levels. And, you know, that I think is going to is going to be extremely dangerous whether or not he runs. Well, now look, this all begs the question with this virus continuing to spread across the country. If the virus does continue to mutate, is it possible and is it likely that the vaccine could be rendered completely ineffective and that we'd be back at square one? I certainly hope that it's not likely. But, you know, the notion that a virus that is figured out how to evolve to make itself more resistant to the natural immunity that we get after having had the disease could figure out how to make itself more resistant to our vaccine-mediated immunity. And obviously, I'm personifying the virus here. But, you know, this is a a natural process. And the more people who get this virus, the more opportunities there are

for this kind of evolution to take hold. And so in a lot of ways, we're playing Russian roulette here. And, you know, the sad truth of it is it's not just our country, right? We focus a lot on the majority, unfortunately, of Americans who are choosing not to get vaccinated right now. But there's billions of people across this world who remain exposed to what is now a prevental disease because of the way that we've allowed major corporations to continue to dominate access and decide who gets access to these lifesaving vaccines. And so, you know, there are people around the world who'd line up for days to get access to a vaccine, but they don't have it because, unfortunately, of the politics foisted on them by people who are choosing not to get

vaccinated in our own country. Yeah. And so this America firstness is not just I want to make sure that I get access to the vaccine first, but I want to hold it for myself, even if I choose not to take it because, of course, America first. It is a self-defeating logic. And in the end, could ultimately, like you said, there's a possibility that it could render our vaccines useless. We hope and pray to God that that is not the case. But what the virus is showing us day in and day out is that it has this capacity to mutate and that it has the capacity to render our vaccines useless. The answer here is to vaccinate as many people as fast as we possibly can. It's kind of like putting a blanket on a fire, Brian. If you put a blanket on a fire quickly, you can smother the fire

and rob it of oxygen and the fire goes out. But if you slowly feed a blanket to a fire, it just becomes fuel for that fire. And I worry that because of our system of late stage corporate capitalism, because of the America's first Trump crowd who are choosing not to get vaccinated and trying to hoard the vaccine at the same time, that we are slowly feeding these vaccines to the pandemic fire, and that could really end in disaster for us. Well, you know, we know that people not getting vaccinated correlates almost directly with political affiliation, and that once something becomes part of your political identity, you know, as opposed to a public health decision, there's no convincing someone to change their mind. So is that the case with COVID?

Is trying to change minds here, basically like trying to get someone to switch their position, on abortion, for example? You know, I wrote an essay in my newsletter, The Incision, which I hope folks will check out at incision.substack.com. And I wrote it after spending a late night up with my toddler as we try to sleep train her into her own bed. And at one point, I got really frustrated with my daughter, and I just yelled, go to sleep.

And I realized that this was a fundamental futile exercise because everything that my daughter was doing to try and stay awake, to try and keep us in the room with her, was motivated by an anxiety driven by fear of something that's fundamentally unsubstantiated, whether it's a monster under your bed or a fear of the dark. We know that these things aren't fundamentally more fearful than going to sleep in the middle of the day. But that's what she's afraid of. And the anxiety, it builds up those fears in her.

And I think if we're thoughtful about this, it's a helpful metaphor to understand perhaps the way we need to move forward around anti-vaxxers around the big lie. I think our response, and logically so, is to try and yell, go to sleep, right? Which is to try to say, the election was free and fair, just get your vaccine already. Those things don't work because I think we have to acknowledge that there is some anxiety that, unfortunately, a number of actors are playing upon and trying to build up. But there is an anxiety at the edge of that, that I think we would be smart to acknowledge and try and suit. And so what we believe have to do is both be able, right, to empathize with folks, recognizing, yeah, there is no reason to believe that the conspiracies

around the election or around the vaccine are true. And yet, there is anxiety about it. And yelling at anxiety doesn't make it go away. It usually just makes it work worse. And so I think that we're going to have to figure out how to soothe people, how to put the message in the hands of people who are trusted in many of these communities where there are low vaccine rates and at the same time continue to hold to our facts. Just like with my kid, right, look, there's nothing under the bed, right? And there's no reason to be afraid. But I want you to understand that I'm here for you and I want you to, I'm asking you to go to sleep because I think it'd be better for you, right? And I think that is a different tone and tenor than unfortunately much of our politics is waged in.

Well, you know, speaking of children now, obviously with these vaccines, is becoming more moving toward becoming available for young children. Is there any indication that the vaccine isn't safe for children? No, no indication at all. There are, you know, any evidence about any potential unintended consequences has arisen out of the trials. We saw the two notes that were put on the Johnson and Johnson vaccine regarding both the clotting and now the Guillain-Barre syndrome. But when it comes to Pfizer-Moderna, you're talking about hundreds of millions of people who've now received vaccines. And if there were unintended

consequences, we would know about them. And fortunately, there are not, aside from the well-documented pain at the side of the vaccine and the malaise and sometimes fever that one can get after the second one in particular. There's no reason to believe that's any different children. In fact, there are active trials that are currently underway for children at this point up to the age of two. And we hope to have evidence about safety and efficacy from those trials. But that's the thing about science, is that it's a self-correcting system. And if you allow it to lead you, it'll get you to the right answer. And so, you know, it's become somewhat somewhat cliche to say trust the science. But that's not the same thing as trust the scientists.

And I invite anybody who is interested in this to go and take a look at the results of the clinical trials. They are publicly posted. And folks can see for themselves. I have one more question. And this is more of a long-term question. How long could the virus remain if we don't hit herd immunity? Like, will COVID be as prevalent as the flu? And so, you know, there's just going to be a constant stream of people getting hooked up to ventilators and dying? The point that you made, The comparison to the flu is the apt one. Flu has been around now for nearly a century, and so it has become somewhat passe. But every year, tens of thousands of Americans die of the flu, and they often are having to

be hooked up to ventilators, and if they make it out, that's great, but too many people die of the flu. Unfortunately, what's looking like the most likely probability is that COVID-19 is going to be very similar. It's going to be something that we need to continuously get boosters for, simply because as we well know, it evolves rather quickly, and that it is going to infect people and in some proportion of them may in fact die. There was a world where we could have smothered this. Unfortunately, given the reticence to get vaccinated, given the speed with which this virus mutates,

it's looking like this is going to be with us for some time. Yeah, just an unforced error that was completely foisted upon us for political reasons. With that said, Abdul, thank you so much. It's always so interesting to hear from you. Where can my listeners hear more from you? Yeah, I hope folks will check out my podcast at America Desected. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts. And then check out my newsletter, The Incision, at incision.

At incision.com. And then you can always follow me on social media. I'm at Abdul-L-S-A-E-D on Twitter and Instagram, and that at Abdul for Michigan on Facebook. I hope folks will check it out. and we try and keep it interesting, informative, but also engaging and fun in terms of the fun of learning, of course. A lot of the topics that we cover are not so fun, but it's important to have that information and to learn it in a safe and thoughtful place where we don't shy away from taking on the political dimensions of some of these issues that we've been talking about. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be on the pod with you, Brian.

Appreciate the information work that you do every day. and I'm looking forward to join you again soon. Thanks again to Abdul. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera,

and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Brian Tyler Cohen.com for links to all of my other channels. Thank you.