No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Trump caught scamming his OWN supporters

Episode Date: December 18, 2022

Trump pulls an NFT scam on his own supporters. Brian interviews MSNBC primetime host Alex Wagner about her response to the media’s relentless both sides-ism, how she thinks the Trump-DeSantis feud will play out, and what her most memorable day on Showtimes' The Circus was.Donate to the "Don't Be A Mitch" fund: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/dontbeamitchShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Trump's NFT scam and the message it sends about his 2024 campaign. And I interview MSNBC's primetime host Alex Wagner about her response to the media's relentless both-sidesism, how she thinks the Trump-Dissanta's feud will play out, and what her most memorable day on the circus was. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So heading into this past week, Trump had taken to Truth Social to hype up what he was calling a major announcement, which immediately, you know, spurred speculation.

about him choosing a running mate ahead of 2024 or announcing some major policy platform or just something because look if nothing else the guy knows how to make news and so it stood to reason that this was going to be something significant and of course it turns out that this was the announcement hello everyone this is donald trump hopefully your favorite president of all time better than lincoln better than washington with an important announcement to make i'm doing my first official Donald J. Trump, NFT collection, right here and right now. They're called Trump Digital Trading Cards. These cards feature some of the really incredible artwork pertaining to my life and my career.

It's been very exciting. You can collect your Trump digital cards, just like a baseball card or other collectibles. That Trump was selling digital trading cards of himself for $99 a pop. There's Trump riding an elephant, Trump standing on the moon, Trump in the Wild West. Like, if you haven't seen these images yet, I would highly, highly recommend checking them out because they look like Donald Trump himself learned to use Photoshop that morning and then released a full set of images by the afternoon. There was one Twitter sleuth who published a thread showing how every image in the collection

was basically stolen from some stock photo, which is about as surprising as the sun rising in the morning. One of the pictures is literally Trump's head on a men's warehouse model. Like, these people paid 99 bucks for a picture of the guy's head cropped onto a men's warehouse ad. And I think what was most striking here is like the shamelessness with which Trump is grifting his own supporters now. Like what part of conning his audience out of 99 bucks for a bunch of shittily Photoshop JPEGs is a major announcement? The money he made didn't even go to his campaign. Like the fine print on the question of whether any of the money from this collection goes to the Donald J. Trump campaign for president, it says, quote, no, these digital trading cards

are not political and have nothing to do with any political campaign. The money just goes to him, personally. He's just like, I have a major announcement and it's that I would like to make money selling JPEGs. And look, him conning his supporters is nothing new, right? I mean, this fucking guy

buried his ex-wife on his golf course that now qualifies his property for a tax break. If someone offered him the right price for Tiffany, there is a non-zero chance that he'd sell her off. But I do feel like the context surrounding this one is different, because this comes at a time when his political stock is low. Every single gubernatorial and secretary of state

candidate who ran on his MAGA agenda in a battleground state lost. It's the third election in a row where his brand was rejected by voters. Ron DeSantis seems to be the new darling of the GOP. Trump's campaign announcement was so boring that Fox News actually cut away from it. And so this was the first moment that got his supporters excited. The first moment that would ostensibly, you know, turn things around for him. And he framed it that way on purpose. Like, dude literally posted quote, America needs a superhero, I will be making a major announcement tomorrow, thank you. No one in the right mind wouldn't assume this was political and would be instead to debut pictures of the guy standing on the moon for 99 bucks.

And so when he needed a win and when his supporters were rooting for a win, this was just such a shameless slap in the face. Like him whipping everyone up into a frenzy all to effectively just request $100 that does nothing but line his pockets? It's like the guy is begging his own supporters to recognize that they're being conned. And so look, in fairness, this could go two ways. On one hand, this is a party whose lifeblood is basically bilking its supporters for money in the least honest way as possible. I mean, Trump's own former chief strategist, Steve Bannon, who was literally indicted on money laundering and

conspiracy charges for his role into frauding investors who donated to that we build the wall campaign. And so I don't think it's going to make front page news that Republicans found a shameless way to empty his own supporters' pockets. That's the caveat. But here's the flip side. The extent to which this was so shameless, like so predatory, so careless, gives me the impression that Trump isn't even trying anymore. Like, there's not even a pretense that this is to help his campaign or that this is for any reason other than just making him rich. And that's not to say that he's like giving up, because I don't think that's the case, but it's also not a sign of a campaign that's going well when your first major announcement since you've been an announced

candidate is that you're selling JPEGs that literally don't even benefit your own campaign. None of this seems like the sign of a healthy political operation. But then again, neither is watching every single swing candidate you endorse lose. So maybe we're just witnessing a broader trend here. In any case, I do wonder whether any of those diehard supporters will see this and finally realize what they mean to this guy, that they're marks. They are dollars to him because he made it as clear as humanly possible. There is no planet on which even a diehard Trump supporter turns around on a day that he hyped them up over major news.

And the news ended up being that he just wants them to hand him $99 and that they don't feel used at the end of that. I can't imagine being a human being and watching that and still feeling vindicated in supporting him. So will this lead to some huge exodus away from Trump? No. But I'll bet a few people were embarrassed enough by this shit that they lost interest. and in an era where, you know, these elections are won on the margins. Being that desperate to bilk your own fans for their money really is a good way to lose support.

Next up is my interview with Alex Wagner. Now you've got the host of Alex Wagner tonight. Alex Wagner, thanks so much for taking the time. Oh, thanks for having me on. Of course. So you're the newest host on MSNBC, I believe. With your show, what was important to you? Like, what did you see happening in media that you wanted to do?

try and rectify with your show. I don't know that I'm fixing any of the big existential problems around like linear television, but and honestly I have a great amount of respect for all my fellow hosts on MSNBC. I used to be at MSNBC a long time ago, and I still very much have admiration and respect and friendships with a lot of the people in the building and on the air. So in some ways it was a homecoming first and foremost. But, you know, I think that we're at a moment as a society when, it sort of demands thoughtful conversation and tenacious journalism and unflinching looks

at the things that most threaten us, not just as a democracy, but as a species. So that's the kind of stuff that I hope to try and tackle on the program. It's not to say that you're not going to get some of the stuff everywhere else or anywhere else, not everywhere else, but anywhere else. Although I think, you know, the DNA of the show is different than other shows, just by nature of the hosts, the staff, the way we put everything together for an hour Tuesday through Friday. Yeah. And what's important to you? Like what's, I guess, like the most important thread for like, for what you do? Well, I'm really interested in the questions around identity and how we

tell ourselves who we are, whether that's the conversation about race, whether that's a conversation about immigration and who is American and who isn't. Whether that's the way culture and our cultural preferences, form our, you know, ourselves, our priorities, our goals, our communities. That's pretty nebulous. But I'm really interested in kind of the way, you know, we talk about politics in particular. I think these days is like a sick and cruel game. But I am interested in the poly part of politics. I'm interested in the humanity and the way in which we come together or are driven apart by the sort of issues of the day. So those are the things that I'm interested in. Is it like especially difficult these days because those issues in

particular, the issues of identity are pretty much the main point of fear mongering from Republicans. I mean, it's pretty much latching on to issues of identity, whether it's LGBT issues and trans issues or immigration and like that. That pretty much is the biggest cudgel that Republicans will wield in their culture war against Democrats. Yeah. I mean, I think it's really toxic. I think it's really unfortunate in a lot of ways. How do you like retain your your like faith in humanity and reporting on this stuff when like this is ground zero for all the bullshit? Yeah. Well, listen, I think the reality is that we're in this project called the United States of America together. And I don't think that means you can't call out evil where it exists or name.

uh, bigotry and racism where it exists, but I also think we have to, we have to sort of understand that all of it, I mean, all of the anger and the frustration, somewhere in there, we have to develop the skills of empathy and forgiveness somewhere along the way. I don't know at what point that part comes along, but I think we can't, I mean, I know it's just really dangerous to stop seeing each other as human beings. And, um, I don't, you know, listen, it's not to say that every night we talk about, you know, racist being human beings. That's not the focus of the show or not something I'm particularly interested in. But I think we have to kind of break down why it is that people

are attracted to this, what it is in society that's pushing us toward that. And also hold accountable, the people that make, you know, that use the cudgel of identity to drive us apart, hold them accountable for what they're doing to us as a country. And I think more than anything, when you hear me really go after, for example, Republican leadership when they're trying to do bad things for the country, that's not just to, you know, give Republicans a hard time. That's because it's toxic to democracy and the project of America. How do you work through the media, you know,

seeing what you do, which I think from watching is from a progressive point of view, and then seeing, you know, what Tucker Carlson does and just casting it off as, oh, well, this is just both extremes. Like, how do you push back against people lazily labeling everything that isn't abject centrism as extreme? or fringe? Well, yeah. I mean, listen, I always bristle when they try and say that MSNBC is the Fox

of the left because nothing comes further from the truth. I mean, first of all, in terms of the standards and the rigor with which we approach journalism and our newscasts, it's not the same as Fox where facts are treated in a very fungible manner and stories are cherry-picked to really, I think, paint a certain worldview and to reinforce negative ideas about. certain sectors of society. We don't do that here. I think what we try and focus on is injustice where it exists. And that doesn't make us a bad journalist, nor does it make us crooked journalists. I think it's important work that we do. And I really, I take issue with the idea that

somehow we are, you know, playing Lucy Goosey with information and facts the way they are at Fox News or even have the same agenda. I mean, really, when we talk about what's breaking down our society, Fox News is playing a huge role in that in terms of, you know, breaking down information systems and pitting people against one another. And I think talking about the wrongs and talking about the injustices and talking about the systems of oppression isn't driving people apart. It's helping us look at the problems and try and figure out solutions. I mean, it's not my job as a journalist to propose a policy solution to immigration, but it is my job as a journalist to talk about how people are suffering and the ways in which that system is broken. So I just think we have radically different

And I mean, very proud to work at MSFDC. And I think what we do is really important for the country. Well, it's especially telling then that, you know, like when just kind of shining a spotlight onto like the oppressions that people face in this country, it really does like draw into the spotlight the fact that a big part of the Republican agenda is trying to hide those systems of oppression, whether it's from, you know, what we're seeing right now more broadly in the world. And even, you know, earlier in schools with what kids. kids go through and not learning about slavery and all this stuff and kind of not having that, not allowing people to develop that schema for, for like the oppressions that exist and so that there's no compassion or understanding of exactly that. Yeah, I think, you know, we, I've done some work in the field since we launched the show

and we went out to Florida to see firsthand what was happening in terms of Governor DeSantis' curriculum adjustments and that's pretty euphemistically. A generous, yeah. I think it's really distressing when you talk about the ways in which they're trying to whitewash America's history and really censor. I mean, you talk about cancel culture. The gaslighting on all that is just extraordinary, right? The idea that you cannot talk about race in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable in the state of Florida is absurd. I mean, but more than absurd, it's deeply detrimental to, first of all, having a society that's held accountable for past ills,

but also recognizing systemic injustice. And when you go at education, it's a particularly insidious way of ensuring that we won't ever have the conversations that we need to and that large portions of the population will be kept in the dark as far as the work that needs to be done

and the sins of our forefathers. And I think it's really dangerous what he's doing. And I think, I mean, the reason I went down there was to shine the light on all of that. the one person can single-handedly battle the very effective governor of a major state in the United States, you know, like showing what's happening at the local level is really important because those are the seeds that, you know, then grow into the harvest of right-wing extremism

that you're seeing today in older segments of the population. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's ironic that, you know, when you point out cancel culture, I think numbers just came out like within the last 24 hours that Florida and Texas are the states with the most banned books in the entire country. And so, you know, have you found that there's some awareness within the media more broadly that both sides is kind of now, like, viewed as a permission structure for the right to do whatever they want, knowing that, you know, if a Democrat mispronounces a word that it'll get equal, scathing coverage as when Republicans, you know, incite and insurrection. I want to be thoughtful about this because I think there is, like, I don't, there's this, there's a deep, there's a real desire.

First of all, it's, let me just say from the outset, it's important to talk to Republicans. I wish more of them would come on the show and explain how they, you know, have these views or believe that this policy is the right policy. I wish we could have a more open conversation, a more transparent conversation. But we can't because they won't come on. show and they won't come do most major media. I mean, before this, I worked for a documentary series on showtime called The Circus. And, you know, it became impossible to book Republican candidates. Even on that show with, I mean, not everybody, not all of your co-hosts were Democrats. Yeah, correct. I mean, even for the Republican in our group to, you basically had to like,

sneak up on Republicans on the campaign trail to get time with them. And that's not how it's supposed to work. I mean, these are elected. representatives who were supposed to be serving the people and to not talk to half of the people because you're worried they might ask tough questions is problematic, right? So having said that, you know, it is not that I don't think that Republicans should be asked questions and should be part of the national conversation at all. And I think in part because some media outlets have lost access to Republicans because they'll ask tough questions, there's an overcorrection to try and entreat them to come back into the fold through kind of what one would have called centrist journalism.

But, you know, I'm all, I think it's important for journalists to, you know, abide by facts and figures and standards and have a code of ethics. But I also think you can't pretend that terrible things aren't happening asymmetrically, politically in this country because you're worried about scaring off, you know, elected representatives or Republican voices that you might want to entertain on the show. And to me, that that's the most problematic aspect of like this return to the center. It's not, you know, I think it handcuffs people. from calling out what are egregious missteps, shockingly poor decisions, you know, really deeply unfair and inhumane policy. I mean, these things are what they are on their face.

They are not necessarily, I mean, made worse so just because they're being proposed by or legislated by Republicans. And as such as journalists, it's our job to acknowledge that. And when you feel like you have to be muzzled in an effort to appear somehow nonpartisan, I think that that's an issue. You know, you have to be able to speak. I mean, you have to not be heavy-handed about it, but to be heavy-handed. You have to be able to speak truth to power.

And I don't think, like, some broader nebulous mission should compromise that. Yeah. I think what was ironic, too, about this, like, over-correction to seem more centrist in a way to appeal to Republicans, is that it's not had any effect to make them more sympathetic to those out. It's not like you're doing it. anything. In fact, it does the opposite because then they can, then they can say the fake New York Times, which is no less fake than before they ran this story. The fake New York Times is even agreeing with us. And so you kind of like, you kind of like cowtow to them in bad faith because you

want to draw them back. And at the same time, you validate what everybody can see is bad faith talking points. And so you kind of like, you kind of give them their cake and let them eat it too, let them eat it too. And you get nothing in return. And well, and moreover, it is not as if the I mean, the party inherently has not recognized how extreme it's gotten, or at least it seems not to have, you know, like Kevin McCarthy is making promises to impeach Biden cabinet officials so that he can become Speaker of the House because he has a brewing insurrection from his right flank. I mean, there is after like what is a terrible midterm performance and a Republican nominee in 2024 or potential potential Republican nominee who is like under assault

from the judicial, from the, by investigations and indictments. Like, there's no course correction apparent on the horizon at all. So this idea that somehow, you know, the Republican Party is ameliorating itself and trying to swing back towards a more moderate version of itself is a fantasy, you know, like it is a, the most extreme iteration of itself that we've seen in modern politics. Yeah, it's kind of amazing to see, to have just lived through an election that was a repudiation of extremism revert right back to embracing the extremist factions of that same party. Exactly.

And also, like, I think something that you're saying just to agree with this idea that, like, Republicans aren't, how difficult it is to get Republicans come on. I've had 150 episodes. I've gotten three. And all three of them have effectively disavowed, like, the Republican Party. I've had Adam Kinsinger, who's no longer, like, no longer an elected representative. Jeff Duncan, the lieutenant governor of Georgia, who is about as hostile to the the MAGA, you know, flank of that party as you can get. And then Mike Murphy, who, who I spoke to,

just a few days ago. Can we call him really a Republican? Yeah, at this point. God bless. All Republicans, listen, all Republicans that I speak to as well. And God bless them for wanting to take tough questions to help us understand what is happening in their party or former party, you know. But I do think, you know, it's really telling that oftentimes the only way in which you gain access to a Republican elected official is if they've been primary, they've been defeated or they're retiring. And that's, you know, that's a problem that they feel like they can't talk to the larger media audience, the larger audience of national media, unless they're no longer in power. I mean, that says something about the sort of the handshake that you have to make to stay inside

the good graces of the power, the party as it is in power. And it's also bittersweet for someone like me who's able to do this, like who's gotten the access to be able to do this by, you know, by being able to post my own videos onto social media platforms and like the expansion of that of that media ecosystem. But then at the same time, it's because of that expansion of the media ecosystem that they don't need to come on outlets like mine because there's a ton of outlets on the right who will just do their bidding, you know? So it's, you know, that's like the double-edged sword of all of this.

So I've been asked this question a lot and I'm curious as to what your thoughts on it are. but as far as the Trump DeSantis jockeying is concerned, how do you think that this plays out in 2024? Well, I think there are a lot of people who are grabbing their buckets of popcorn and ready to watch the bloods for it. I think it's going to be ruthless. But I will say, as someone who's seen Trump up close

and attended his rallies as part of my work as a journalist, you know, he is an incredibly effective candidate on the stump. And he has a following, an almost cult-like following. for a number of different reasons, some of which owe to the nature of his supporters themselves, but some of which are a result of him as a political operative and a candidate. And he, he's really good at it. I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go down the sort of moral rabbit hole of Donald candidate.

But he is really good at running for office and gaining the support and the momentum necessary to win an election. Ron DeSantis is, I think, much more effective governor. He's gotten policy in place that would make even some of Trump's cabinet officials faint. But I don't know, you know, I think woe to anyone who underestimates the ability of Trump to be, a, also, let's just say, pull out weapons from an arsenal that we've never seen used before, but also vanquish potential foes. You know, I mean, he can be not just ruthless, but he is fairly skillful. It's a sort of, it's an innate skillfulness. It's not learned. It's definitely not something that was developed by a strategist.

I just think Ron DeSandis could be entering a world of hurt. Though he has the ardor and the enthusiasm of a lot of the GOP elders. And clearly, the polling looks very good for him right now. I'm not discounting his proposition, his position and his prospects for 2024 by any means. But I don't think it's a rap on Donald Trump, which I think as an obit that a lot of people, for good reason, are probably ready to write. Right. And no, and I completely agree. I've said that, you know, this is something I've said. And I apologize people watching them if they've heard this. But like, but like, you know, until you kill the guy, he's not dead. And so, you know, people are granting Ronda Santis the air appearance. But there's no nothing to suggest that any of these people, you know,

Ron DeSanthas included have, have any interest, even taking a swipe at this guy because they haven't. But just to game this out for a moment, if people recognize the extent to which Donald Trump is an albatross around the Republican Party's next, they see that he's lost in 2018, 2020, 2020, and it does look like, like, okay, if we want to win as Republicans, we have to go a different way. And maybe, you know, there's a little bit of a fall off in his support. And there is like the, you know, and Ron DeSantis does become the heir apparent. the Republican Party. What do you think happens to like the Trump supporters and Donald Trump himself? Like he's not going to do you see a world in which he allows that he doesn't go full scorched earth and that he allows like like, you know, allows himself to go quietly into the into the night? I don't think going quietly into the night is something Donald Trump has ever done. I mean, it's January 6th, 2021. So, you know, but it is different because that's the Democrats.

At least there's like, you have, but he has no allegiance to the GOP. That's simply a vehicle for his own ego and his own ambitions, right? I think he could easily try and take, you know, the third party route and take, I mean, I think honestly, he's openly and then, you know, tacitly suggested to the Republican elders. I'll take my people with you, with me. So, you know, if you want to boot me out of the party, you're booting them out of the party, too. And look, they are not, they are not the entire Republican Party, but they are a sizable portion of the party that also comes out of votes, you know? They're like maybe 25 to 30% of the country, depending on what Donald Trump has recently done and who's ready to pledge allegiance to him.

But that's real when you're talking about numbers. And by the way, the country, you know, when it comes down to elections, they're still pretty tight. And there's, you know, the electoral college is the reality. So, you know, I think, I absolutely think he'll go scorched her. Nothing in his resume suggests to me that he'll sort of go to the RNC and give, you know, an introductory speech to Ron DeSantis as he claims the nomination. It's impossible for me to imagine that. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, we'll see what happens in terms of these independent runs. It's going to be Donald Trump and Kirsten Cinema leading the country after. Oh, my God, God help us all. So you mentioned the circus before. I've been a longtime fan of the circus. I'm curious, what was your most memorable day while shooting that show? I've got to say talking to the Georgia 3% militia right ahead of Election Day in 2020. where they said that a second civil war was coming and basically outlined the January 6th

insurrection, not in specific terms, but just in terms of what supporters were preparing for, what they expected in terms of a Trump victory and what they thought they would do if Biden was declared the winner. I mean, it was just the explicit nature of that threat was staggering then. And then, of course, on January 6th, it all effectively came to fruition. So, I mean, I'll never forget that conversation. And also, I mean, not just because of the January 6th, but it's rare that you get to talk to people that have gone so deeply to the upside down, down the rabbit hole and are literally living in, you know, a parallel reality and are so deeply convinced of it, you know, and it really, it's so, it's so, it was so disturbing as a member of the news

media to have that conversation with them because it just really so sharply outlined the difficulty of a task at hand, which is to bring people back into the light, the world of facts and information. I mean, a certain segment of the population is gone, you know, and it's almost like they need to be reprogrammed to help them understand that, you know, this paranoid worldview is not actually what's happening in this country and around the world. Did you ever feel unsafe at any point, like around these people? for whom, you know, they're so deeply entrenched in, like, the toxicity of their politics and, like,

I mean, there are people who, like, commit political violence and you are, like, you're, like, an enemy to those people. So, like, at any point, did you feel unsafe? Or have you felt unsafe while, like, doing that show or anything like that? Well, I, you know, when you're talking to people one-on-one, it's really, I think it's really important to talk to people one-on-on-one, because you deal with each other as human beings. Like, the militia guys were all carrying guns, concealed weapons. But, I didn't feel unsafe because I felt like we could each see each other. We were having a conversation as, you know, people to people, which, which so, I mean, that's such a huge part of why we have so many problems. We're not talking to each other anymore. So I didn't feel unsafe

with them, you know, and in some ways I would say they were trying to convince me of how wrong I was. You know what I mean? Like in the same way that I was, I was trying to not explain to them, but just try and, you know, like convince them that Joe Biden could legitimately win the election. They were in turn trying to convince me that there was just no way that could happen, you know? And so you had this kind of strange interaction where each side was trying that, in their eyes, help the other side understand the truth of things. So I didn't feel threatened. Then I think, you know, the times in which I felt threatened for my own safety were probably at large scale rallies where we're not dealing with each other as one-on-one. It's kind

of mob mentality. And it's easy to dehumanize someone who's, you know, a brown person with a camera crew and is not someone you're talking to and having a conversation with. And that's where you can see a mob getting whipped up into a frenzy and some kind of violence happening there. But that never came to pass, you know, and I'm lucky that we have a pretty gamey group of documentary filmmakers on the circus crew that were always, you know, down to go into these situations in service of documenting and chronicling the extraordinary political times in which we Yeah. Okay, so let's finish off with this. As we move forward, I guess who, uh, if you can interview anyone, who would it be? Oh, I mean, like, I'm, I'm sorry, first of all, I'm

sorry that like my email is popping up. This is what it's like interviewing an MSNBC anchor in the middle of the afternoon during the, during the work week. Like four hours before we go on there. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, I've always wanted to interview John Boehner. John Boehner, if you're listening, please give me some time. Just I think he, you know, he represented the end of the establishment having any control over the grassroots insurgents of the party. And also it's just a fascinating, you know, wine-swilling character. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of stories to tell. Of course, I'd love to interview Kristen Cinema just to better understand her logic in all of this and for goals in all of this.

And then this person has to be alive, right? It would be helpful probably. A Putin, just because I think, you know, when we talk about the forces of autocracy and the forces of darkness and the demagogues that threaten, you know, the liberal order, he's chief among them and is an increasingly reclusive and dangerous individual. and it would be great to understand how his mind works as well. What a list. What a dinner party.

Yeah, exactly. I think you'd have better luck getting Putin and Boehner before Kirsten Cinema, which is not exactly a testament to her availability or anything like that. Not exactly a compliment to her. So with that said, Alex, thank you so much for taking the time. And where can my viewers and listeners hear more from you? You can always tune in to MSNBC Tuesdays through Fridays at 9 p.m. to see Alex Wagner tonight. You can also catch me on my fun little Netflix side project, The Mole.

And there is my book, Future Face, on One World Books. And I have a forthcoming title, due out, oh, hopefully in 2024 that I can tell you about when I start writing it that will be of interest to anybody who's interested in the radicalization of the Supreme Court. Very cool. Well, thank you again for taking the time. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Great to talk with you. Thanks again to Alex.

That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, interviews captured and edited for YouTube and Facebook by Nicholas Nicotera, and recorded in Los Angeles, California. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app. Feel free to leave a five-star rating and a review, and check out Briantylercoen.com for links to all of my other channels.