No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Trump crashes and burns with bizarre exaggerations

Episode Date: September 8, 2024

Trump jumps the shark and betrays how badly his campaign is doing. Brian interviews the Democratic nominee for the US Senate in Florida, Debbie Mucarsel-Powell, about Rick Scott’s abortion lies and polling showing Florida within reach for Democrats. And legal analyst Kim Wehle joins to discuss Trump’s delayed sentencing and the issue of pardons as they relate to the January 6 insurrectionists. Buy Kim's book: https://www.amazon.com/How-Pardon-Power-Works_and-Why/dp/1954907508Shop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today we're going to talk about Donald Trump fully jumping the shark and betraying how badly his campaign is doing. And I interview the Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate in Florida, Debbie Mu-Kristel Powell, about Rick Scott's abortion lies and polling showing Florida within reach for Democrats. And legal analyst Kim Whaley joins to discuss Donald Trump's delayed sentencing and the issue of pardons as they relate to the January 6th insurrectionists. I'm Brian Taylor Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. I know that we've all been talking about Trump for so long that nothing seems to face anybody about him anymore. But something's been happening over the last few weeks that I think puts on full display how we have crossed the Rubicon here. Here's just a small sampling of what I mean. Can you imagine you're a parent and your son leaves the house and you say,

Jimmy, I love you so much, go have a good day in school, and your son comes back with a brutal operation. Can you even imagine this? What the hell is wrong with our country? And then the press, when I say Dr. Hannibal Lecter, press us, oh, why did he mention that? They're wise guys back there, just wise guys. They say he rambled and started talking about Hannibal Lecter.

What does that have to do? That's a representative of people that are coming into our country, Dr. Hannibal Lecter. He will have you for dinner. You know that? He will have you for dinner. That kids are transitioning genders in school, that Hannibal Lecter is representative of

immigrants coming into the country, which I suppose means that they're akin to cannibals. And look, in Trump's simple mind. He assumes that the spookier he makes these warnings, the more scared people will be. But what he's not taking into account when he says insane shit like this, when he jumps the shark, nobody believes him. Here's the deal. If you are that easily duped by Donald Trump, then you're already duped by him.

You're already under his thumb. Not a single undecided voter is still undecided in September of 2024, only to finally be swayed when Donald Trump says that immigrants are eating people. And so the practical effect here is the practical effect of every. everything Trump does, which is to double down only on his base. Again, he's not persuading anybody with these frothing claims of cannibal immigrants and kids transitioning genders and algebra class. All he's doing is further manipulating the people who are already putty in his hands, which is a weird strategy, by the way, when the goal is supposed to be expanding the coalition,

not just spending all of your time convincing the same people over and over and over to vote for you even harder. In effect, all that's happening here is that Donald Trump is putting on full display the extent to which his campaign is flailing. This is the political equivalent of just launching a Hail Mary into the end zone, which isn't something you do when you're winning. It's what you do when you're desperate. Trump is just betraying the fact that he is so desperate, that he feels so backed into a corner, he's just ramping everything up to a 10. There's not only immigrants coming into this country, but they are eating people like Hannibal Lecterwood. There's not just trans people, but they're transitioning your kids in school. Everything is that it's full extreme with Trump.

The problem is that people don't believe things like this. It doesn't make him sound cogent or trustworthy. It makes him sound insane. And the last thing it's doing is expanding his coalition, which again, presumably should be the top priority of this campaign. But again, logic tends to go out the window when you're running on pure desperation. And that's what's happening in Trump's campaign right now. So look, yes, Trump's.

is dangerous and the things that he says will continue to radicalize the suckers who believe him. But aside from that, the fact is that Donald Trump is continuing to put on full display that far from acting from a place of strength, he is acting from a place of extreme weakness. He is desperate and flailing and increasingly unhinged. He knows he's losing this race, which is why every word out of his mouth is just more extreme than the last. The difference is that far from captivating the country, like what happened in 2016, it's just really tired and pathetic.

Trump found a lot of virtue in being perceived as a strong man, but at this point, it's hard to see him as anything other than weak. Here are my interviews with Debbie Mukersel Powell and Kim Whaley. Here's what every Democrat has voted for in D.C. They've all voted to have abortion up until the moment of birth. Now, if you want to follow how that happens, you crush a baby's skull. A baby that would be born healthy alive at nine months, Two minutes before, okay, it can be crushed and killed.

Okay, I think that's extreme and barbaric. On top of that, all the Democrats have voted to say that a baby born, healthy life can be allowed to put in the corner and starve itself to death. I'm joined now by Democrat Debbie Mukersel Powell, who's running against the guy who you all just saw Rick Scott for the U.S. Senate in Florida. First of all, can you speak on the staggering dishonesty of what Rick Scott just said and what he's trying to accomplish by saying it? Well, Brian, this was a moment that was extremely disturbing. He has been spreading disinformation and some of it actually Russian propaganda for a long time. This is a man who voted to not certify the elections and after the results of 2020.

And now you're watching something that we have been seeing for a long time. from Rick Scott. And it's that he has absolutely no problem lying to Floridians. But these lies are so extremely disturbing the way that he actually talks about a women that for many of them have to really work to be able to be able to have a pregnancy. But many women are now faced with the threat that if they have a pregnancy that's not developing, that it's facing a threat to their own lives, they are not able to have an abortion here in the state of Florida or terminate that pregnancy. We are living under one of the most extreme bans on abortion, a six-week ban. Rick Scott fully supports a six-week ban. But he's lying to these young students. This was at the University of

Miami. It was during a class, a political science class that he was speaking. And I was in that classroom because I was going to speak after he spoke. And the young women in that classroom were gasping and they felt so uncomfortable. It was so disturbing. And after I spoke, so many of them came to me and they said, you know, thank you so much for speaking the truth, for standing up to those lies. This is such a private matter for a woman. And it's part of our health care. It's central to our integrity. It's part of our civil rights and freedoms here in the state of Florida. And as a mom, Brian, I just was so outraged that this guy, this man was talking to young women in the way that you're all watching right now. He cannot get reelected.

He wants to be Senate majority leader. He wants to push a national abortion ban and also ban access to IVF and contraception. He voted against those two bills just recently in the past few weeks. If he gets reelected, he's extremely dangerous. And even if Kamala Harris wins the White House, he wins the presidency, if Rick Scott and the Republicans hold the Senate, she's not going to be able to really work towards all the progress that we've already been making in this country under this administration.

So I need everybody to support me in this race. Debbie for Florida.com. Rick Scott is a self-funder. He put $64 million of his own money to barely win in 2018, only with 10,000 votes. We can win, Brian. We can win. I need people to pay attention to what's going on in Florida.

You know, when Rick Scott comes in front of a classroom full of people, is he breaking through to any of the folks in that classroom? I know you mentioned that a bunch of young women had come up to you afterwards and thanked you. But more broadly, are these lies actually breaking through to any semblance, any fraction of the population that he's speaking to? Were there any people in that classroom who bought into what he was saying? I mean, that classroom had over 200 students. And I can tell you that the majority of students, young men also were just gasping, listening to him speak.

I don't think that those lies broke through. If anything, it turned a lot of people off. After I spoke, there were lines and lines of students wanting to talk to me, take pictures with me. So it was very evident that he turned that classroom off. And he's been turning women and men across the state off. I mean, the guy oversaw the largest Medicare fraud. He was CEO of that company that committed Medicare fraud. He wants to take away Social Security and Medicare.

He wants to repeal the Affordable Care Act. He was a disastrous governor in protecting our environment. People here know him, and that's why he really just can't break through. He can't break that threshold. You know, isn't there something also to be said about the contempt that he and Republicans have for their own supporters that they could spread such an egregious lie and expect their supporters to be such fools that they would believe them? Yeah. And it's really, it's really, really sad that they try to take advantage of that voice, that power that they have right now sitting in elected office, right? That they have that microphone. And they target very vulnerable communities instilling fear. They use fear mongering to get political points. For very religious, very conservative voters, it'll be the fear that they're instilling in that somehow, somehow doctors or women are killing babies. And let's

Let's be real here, Brian. We live in the United States of America. It is against the law to hurt a baby purposely. I mean, what he's talking about is a crime. And there are laws in the books to prosecute anyone that's hurting a baby purposely. And it doesn't happen. It just, it's false. What he's talking about is just to instill that fear.

And it's really shameful. That man belongs nowhere, nowhere close to political office. And for me as a mom, again, I'm going to tell you, it was borderline, even abusive, because it was so disturbing the way that he was speaking to these young women. Yeah. I mean, my mom has been a labor and delivery nurse for 35 years. The notion that anything that Rick Scott is saying is even in the universe of reality is an absolute joke.

I do want to switch our attention to some big news out of Florida. The Emerson poll just released on Friday shows Rick Scott at 46 percent and you at 45 percent, with 9% of respondents undecided, that would suggest, then, to your earlier point, that Florida is actually in play. So what do you say to folks who've written off Florida? Well, they're not paying attention is what I say to them. And look, that poll is just one of many polls that have shown that I'm basically tied with Rick Scott at this point. And here's what I want people to understand. We haven't even been on TV yet. We're just starting our communications plan. We have, we've been very strategic. We've been using the limited funds that we have

to communicate with voters. We have been building a grassroots movement and people in Florida are rejecting the extreme policies that have been coming out from Washington, D.C. by Rick Scott, by people like Rick Scott, but, but mostly from Tallahassee, right? I mean, people here are tired of the attacks against education, banning books, taking away the freedom, the freedom for people to be able to make a good living in the state of Florida. We have an affordability crisis here. People can't pay their mortgage, their rent, their insurance rates. They can't afford to send their children to school or pay for our students that go into our public universities. It's becoming so unaffordable.

And now they're taking away a woman's right to choose. And so Floridians have been organizing. We have been building a grassroots campaign. And it showed in the primary, the solid primary win that we had just a couple of weeks ago. And now you're seeing a poll where people now, when they know that they have a choice, they come to us very quickly. They don't want to vote for Rick Scott. They're done with his policies.

And that's why people need to pay attention because we can win the seat and we need to keep the Senate majority. Well, I usually save the donation request for the end. But I do think it's important right now for folks who are watching this. There is a reason that we benefit from donating early in these election cycles. And that is because Republicans, as we know, will use every avenue they can to redefine someone like Debbie McCracell Powell here, before she can define herself. And, of course, it takes money to define herself because she needs to be able to get on

the airwaves and reach all of the people in Florida, which is the third biggest state in the country. And so that costs a lot of money. But to be able to reach all of those people now before Republicans have the opportunity to get on the air and lie about her to people who don't know any better, that's why it's so important to donate early and often. So if you have the ability to contribute, where can folks who are watching donate to your campaign? Yeah, thank you so much, Brian.

It's Debbie for Florida.com is our website. It's very easy. It's very fast. And, you know, it's incredible because I have seen money flowing all over the country. And for us, we are a huge state. And you're right. It's expensive to communicate. But just imagine we have over 20 million people that live in the state of Florida.

We have different media markets in the north, central, and southern parts of the state. But we have a really great strategy that once we communicate with our voters, you saw in that poll, there's a portion of independent voters. And what we've seen is that when we talk to them, they come to us. We need to win Florida. It's the top pickup opportunity that we now have to keep the majority. And so please, Debbieforflora.com, we can do it. I've been fighting for over a year.

We have 60 days left. Join my campaign. To that point, there was also a poll out this week out of Montana. I believe it was an AARP poll showing that the Republican challenger to John Tester, and that's Tim Sheehe, is actually leading him by six points. If that happens, Democrats would effectively lose the normal path to retaining their Senate majority. So can you speak on the added significance of your race then in light of that new poll out of Montana? Yeah.

And look, I know John Tester and he's a fighter. And I think that, you know, no matter what, I am really hoping that he pulls this one through because we need in the Senate, obviously. But the reality is that if we lose Montana and Republicans hold the majority in the Senate, this is what it's going to mean for America. Rick Scott, if he gets reelected and he becomes Senate majority leader, now remember, this is a man who's very much aligned with Trump. He wrote a plan that was a preamble to Project 2025. He's extremely close to the Heritage Foundation, which wrote Project 2025. they will undo all the things that this administration has done. What does that mean?

The cap of insulin at $35, gone. The Affordable Care Act, they will try to repeal it. They will continue to cut taxes for the top 0.1%, and they will raise taxes for middle class families. This is part of Rick Scott's plan. He wants to sunset, eliminate Social Security, Medicare, and they will pass a national abortion ban without any access to IVF or contraception. I was in Congress, Brian, when they were signing this Life of Conception Bill,

extreme Republicans in the House of Representatives. They have a strategy. They have a plan. It's a 900-page written plan. I am not telling you anything you haven't heard before. If you have any doubts, read Rick Scott's plan. They want to dismantle the Department of Education. And at the end of the day, the race to the White House is very, very close.

And the Senate is going to be key in holding the line. because just imagine for a moment, if Kamala Harris, which I think she's going to be our first woman president, the energy there is unstoppable, but if Trump gets elected, reelected to go back into the White House and we don't have the Senate, there will be no line. We will lose democracy. We will lose every single freedom that we have enjoyed for over 200 years. And I would add, too, that we also have a Supreme Court justice in Sotomayor, who is in her mid-70s. And so if you think the Supreme Court is bad now, if it's entrenched with Republican rule now, just imagine if it goes from 6-3 to 7-2. Let's finish off with this. Florida is one of the states that Democrats largely seem to have abandoned because it's actually gotten redder in every election cycle since 2000. So what's making your race so close? What is the principal issue or issues that are resonating so much with Floridians that,

hadn't before. Look, our campaign is about building a better future for families here in Florida that have been struggling under Republican rule for over 20 years. And I talk about the issues. And when I talk about the issue, everyone, everyone relates to the challenges, challenges that I have faced growing up, starting at a minimum wage job. I've worked very hard through high school and college just to make ends meet. My mother brought me here from Ecuador when I was 14. And because of those opportunities that can now speak to you as the official U.S. Senate nominee to run here in the state of Florida as a Democrat. It's the first time there's ever been a Latina at the top of the ticket. I've been very present around the state with Latino communities, talking to them

about the issues that matter most. And Republicans, Independence, Democrats are all coming and joining this campaign because they can see a vision of Florida with someone that's going to be fighting for them, that's going to be lifting them up, that's going to fight to reduce guns. violence and protect our children, which we continue to see are dying because of this gun violence epidemic. This is about issues. We are putting partisan politics aside. I am very clear what it means if Rick Scott gets reelected. And I'm very clear about what I'm going to do when I get to the Senate. And so I really do feel very optimistic, energized, and I'm really grateful for the amount of work that so many Floridians are putting in to get me to where we are right now. We have 60 days.

I'm a point behind. I need support. We can do this. And believe me, when I tell you, Florida is an incredibly important state this election cycle, but in future election cycles. This may very well be the difference between a Senate majority leader, you know, Schumer or or Rick Scott to your point. Exactly. So, and also the values of Floridians have always been right in the middle, Brian. I mean, we talk about swing states. Yes, this is a swing state. And over the past two election cycles, it swung to the right. It's swinging right back to us. Obama won the state in 2008 and 2012. Democrat won statewide in 2018. And what did Republicans do? They invested even more. They dug in. They doubled down. Democrats need to do the same thing. We need to be strategic,

just like Republicans are. They didn't pack and leave Florida because they lost a few election cycles. They actually invested more. That's what we need to do. This is an important state. If you care about the environment, if you care about Latinos, if you care about black communities, if you care about maternal mortality rates and protecting a woman's right to choose, this is a state that you need to invest in, and this is a state that you need to support. Well, that was perfectly put, again, for those watching right now, please let's make sure we can get this state over the finish line. This would be a huge pickup opportunity. Again, that's Debbie for Florida.com. Debbie Mukersel, Powell, thank you so much for taking the time and best luck in the campaign trail.

Thank you, Brian. Now we've got constitutional law professor, ABC News legal analyst, and the author of the new book, Pardon Power, How the Pardon System Works, and Why. Kim Whaley, thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, great to be here with you, Brian. Thank you. So I do want to jump into the book, but before we do that, we are living through some unprecedented legal times, obviously, and so I have to get your reaction to some new developments. So first off, Donald Trump's New York sentencing was delayed until after the election.

There seems to be two schools of thought on this. The first is that Donald Trump got away with it yet again because he always does. And the second is actually a little bit more nuance, which the Internet is famous for accepting. And that is that this actually unencumbers Judge Mershan to then impose a sentence of incarceration if he's not burdened by the prospect of impacting a presidential election, which we now know is something that weighs into his decision making here. So where do you land on this issue? Well, if there's a sentencing date, he didn't get away with anything.

just not for now. And I'm kind of in camp number two. First of all, we know from the Justice Department, of course, this is a state law prosecution. We know that there's a 60-day limit on starting new, new investigations. And so there's a recognition that things close to an election is probably something that the criminal justice system should stay away from. But honestly, you know, reportedly, Trump raises so much money when there's anything that happens in these in these trials. So imagine Murchin wants to impose a sentence and then he's got he not only is going to raise a lot of money, he's going to grab all the attention of the news cycle. So Murchin's got to know it's going to divert the conversation away from the election and the issues because Donald Trump

is billion at that. And from my perspective, he's kind of been flailing since Kamala Harris took over the nomination. He hasn't really gotten any traction on anything other than, you know, the stumbles of his VP candidate. What do you say to Republicans who now claim that Judge Mershahn, staying the sentencing until after the election, validates their claims that this is indeed election interference? Because why else would he not have imposed a sentence if not for the fact that an election was upcoming? Well, I mean, they're masters of heads. We win, tails you lose. Right. So I can't imagine if he did do it before, then it would just be, you know, a ticker tape parade for them because they'd actually have something to point in. I mean, to say that the delay is somehow nefarious, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

But I think, you know, people do want to see justice for Donald Trump. And, you know, the Supreme Court has just handed him win after win after win in ways that I think are deeply, deeply troubling and maybe even contrary to the plain language of the Constitution. So that's really the bigger problem in my mind. I think that the wheels will hum along in New York as they have. That was the case everybody thought should not have been brought. that was the weakest case. And I think that's the one that's going to end up with a sentence, whether he's president or not. Now, moving over to D.C., we are waiting now for the end of this month, where the process will begin of this mini trial, and that's at the hands of Judge

Chutkin. How impactful do you think that will be in terms of reminding Americans about the crimes that Donald Trump is facing right now in what many believe to be the strongest case against him? Yeah, you know, I guess it depends on who, if these mini trials go forward, witnesses are called one of the pivotal witnesses for the government that I think is a problem potentially for the government is former vice president Mike Pence, you know, because the Supreme Court said two things. They said kind of astonishingly to the extent to which Donald Trump called the vice president and told him to take an unconstitutional act and not to gavel in the presidency for Joe Biden, that that's protected conduct, that there's no oversight of that, but said to the

extent to which Vice President Pence was operating as a Senate actor in his and his obligations to actually do that for the Senate, that might be unofficial conduct. And then the third piece, Brian, which I think is brilliant, is Jack Smith is trying to reframe the whole thing around president versus candidate, president versus candidate. So this is a high, tight wire balancing act. I think people will pay attention if we see something new, if we see a big name kind of have to testify. But we all sat through years ago now, or a long time ago, the January 6 hearings and investigations. And it's just astonishing that it's a collective shrug these days. And it's one that comes from the highest court in the land, somehow basically pointing fingers at the

Justice Department suggesting it was abusive to actually take steps to prosecute that. That's what's still in this moment is stunning. I don't think anything that could happen in Judge Chuckkin's courtroom can change things in this moment. Moving over to the other federal prosecution that Trump is contending with, and that's in Florida, do you anticipate that this case will be moved back into the trial court system after the 11th Circuit has its hearing on whether this should have been dismissed in the way that Judge Cannon did?

And if so, do you think that there will be some way in which, whether it's the 11th Circuit itself or Jack Smith's prosecutorial team asks for a new judge other than Judge Cannon herself, which would seem to make sense because she's hell-bent on making sure that this case doesn't see the light of day that Donald Trump isn't held accountable for his crimes. I think the 11th Circuit's going to reverse her for sure. I mean, because there are four federal statutes, excuse me, and a Supreme Court decision that go against her ruling. But I also think that Donald Trump will appeal that to the U.S. Supreme Court, and given that Clarence Thomas gratuitously, in a concurring opinion, gave her

a roadmap for this. When I say it was a gratuitous, that case didn't have, you know, anything to do. The immunity question had nothing to do with the constitutionality of Jack Smith's appointment. So he went out on a limb to go outside the scope of that decision or even the topic to give her that roadmap. But let me say one more thing. Donald Trump has said to Judge Chuck in the January 6th case that he plans to raise the constitutionality. of Jack Smith. So I think the Justice Department understands they have to win this one, and I think that one will go to the court. The question is, can Thomas get four more justices on board? We don't know, right? Now, whether when it's remanded, whether they try to get her

replaced, I know that our friend Glenn Kersner has encouraged that for a long time. Her behavior is clearly biased, clearly, clearly deeply problematic, but it's a very high. hurdle to overcome. And I think the bigger issue is, you know, why he chose to be in Florida to begin with. They might have had jurisdiction in Washington or venue in Washington. But now that the court has said that official acts are protected, you know, maybe they have to be in Florida because he packed up the boxes in Washington, right? And then he did the obstruction allegedly in Florida. So my guess is they'll stay in Florida. And if they get a win on Jack Smith's appointment. My guess is they'll stick with her. I want to move over to the book now because it's

very relevant to all of the stuff that we're talking about. So first off, Donald Trump has promised to pardon the more than 1,000 convicted insurrectionists who were involved in the events of January 6th. Is this the first time that you know of where a president is effectively dangling a pardon not just for already committed criminal activity in terms of what these insurrectionists did on January 6th, but effectively encouraging more violence. more criminal activity by signaling to his supporters that if the need for another January 6th arises again, that they will be protected by a presidential pardon in the event Trump wins. It's really stunning. I don't know if it's the first time in American history. I mean,

remember when Johnson, President Johnson took over for Abraham Lincoln, there were pardons by Lincoln of Confederates. There were pardons by Johnson of Confederate soldiers. And the idea was, listen, we need to get people back in the union. Lincoln wanted them back in the Army. And And so it was giving pardons to encourage them to join the union. And then Johnson, the idea was we need to move on. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination, dangling these pardons for the insurrections has anything to do with healing the nation. And there was a study done this summer.

There was a survey. It's on Protect Democracy's website done this summer of Republicans and Democrats and of a majority of both sides of the aisle of Americans did not want to see pardons for the January 6th insurrections. Why? Why? Precisely because, as you indicate, they don't want a green light for political violence. People don't want a green light for political violence, but that is what Donald Trump, in part, is running his campaign on. So there are a lot of reasons, additional reasons we can talk about, certainly green lighting, not only political violence, but his own private militia, potentially, that'll have his back no matter what with their guns. We saw another disgraceful, painful episode of gun violence in school in Georgia this week. That is deeply, deeply, deeply true. troubling. But the pardon, Brian, the problems, a colleague of mine called it the open sewer of pardon. The pardon problem right now goes far beyond the January 6th insurrectionist. It has a lot to do

with that immunity decision we were talking about. You know, to that exact point, there are, of course, pundits out there. I don't know whether they're saying this to troll us or just because they're actually being earnest about it, but they're suggesting that Joe Biden should pardon Donald Trump or I suppose the same logic could be extended to Kamala Harris if she wins in November, that she should then pardon Donald Trump and that that's the only way we could truly move on and heal as a country. What are your thoughts on that prospect? You know, that's a political question. And I would obviously, and I would, I would imagine that that that would happen with some idea that maybe Kamala Harris would want to get buy-in

from the United States Congress from the Republicans to get more of our agenda move forward. Like so, okay, if we're going to move forward as a nation, I'll do this pardon, but then you need to do something for me and, you know, start making laws and taking actions for the American people. As a, you know, as a non-political pundit, watching the way this has gone since January 6th with the Republican Party signing on, really, to totalitarianism, to authoritarianism, to something, a version of democracy that has nothing to do with democracy. If I were Kamala Harris, I wouldn't touch that deal with the 10-foot poll. I think there's enough people that also. want to see justice for Donald Trump. Why? Because we are worried, and I include myself, in the prospect of the end of American democracy. And just to my point on the pardon, you know, what the Supreme Court did in creating criminal immunity is a lot, basically say,

presidents, you can commit crimes in the unoffice. They're saying, we're assuming you're going to do it. If you commit crimes in office, you just better use official power. But you're going to need people to execute orders if you're using official power. How do you do that? You pair it with the pardon. So you take immunity plus pardon and all of a sudden you have, you know, you've got a criminal gang in the White House that might never want to leave. So, so the last thing I would think that that someone like Joe Biden or Kamala Harris should really do in this moment is say, good job. I'm going to reward you for that, which is one version of a pardon. I would not want to see that personally. Well, it also sets up an incentive structure where Republicans then

know that they can commit criminal activity and that until and unless that person is absolved by Democrats, then they can withhold any participation in the functioning of government. And so they can just keep committing criminal activity and say, okay, but you better let him go. Otherwise, we're not going to do anything. I think the better move here is just to elect people who actually believe in the core functions of government and don't use it as a carrot basically to commit criminal activity for themselves and then and then force Democrats hands in terms of absolving them for that criminal activity if they want to, if they want any buy-in from Republicans to do the most

basic core functions of government. Couldn't agree more. And plus, honestly, Brian, I mean, I think this would be the last pardon needed because with the immunity decision, you can just commit crimes. You don't need a self-pardon. You don't need a pardon because you can't, there's no criminal liability. So it would also be like the seal on the deal of the end of an accountable White House. an accountable executive branch. And as I talk about, as I explain this way, when people don't, you know, sometimes people are visual thinkers or visual learners. You know, if you think about a monarchy, an unlimited monarchy, it's a triangle. The president or the king is at the top. The power comes from God and it sprinkles down to the subjects based on their, and the king's whims. And that's the idea behind the pardon could dole out mercy if you, you know, kiss the ring enough. The American democracy is an inverted triangle. The people are at the top and the power. And the power.

trickles down to presidents. Presidents are not kings. And the Supreme Court basically rewrote that part of Article 2. And anyone who suggests, which I've heard, that that's an exaggeration or even worse, that it's an exaggeration to imagine what we're talking about could ever happen? I think we get on our time machine and talk to the revolutionaries. Talk to the framers of Constitution. Do you think they fought and died to kick out King George III? Because they believe that, oh, every king will be a benevolent king. So why do we need government by the people? No, it was a, it was an amazing thing that they created in history of humankind, an idea where people were their own self-government. And that is literally on the line in this moment. And I hope everybody

votes like their future depends on it and their children's future depends on it. Because if you're too young to vote, you've got to rely on a higher, you know, older generations to preserve this. And the stakes could not be greater. I think that's a great point, too, in the sense that we for so long have become accustomed to this idea that our democracy is a given that people will abide by the peaceful transfer of power. In fact, what Donald Trump is doing is very much in line with his make America great again, backwards-looking view is being, is reiterating what we've seen throughout history, which is that people are in fact not willing to seed power once they have it. And so, you know, again, like his whole platform is very backward looking.

And I think that what we're seeing now is just kind of a nod to times past to the exact point that you're making. Yeah, it's historical. I mean, I didn't do a lot of history in college, but I wish I did because, you know, it does repeat. And why does it repeat? James Madison said in the federalist papers, if men were angels, we would not need government. Ambition needs to make, made to counteract ambition, just like you said. When people get power, they want. They want more.

They want to entrench it and not give it up. And ultimately it gets abused because there's no checks and balances. I mean, if you drive down the street and there's a speed limit, you'll speed. You'll go 45 and a 35 until there's accountability until you get the ticket for speeding. You know, where's the tickets for speeding in the White House? And what dictator promised to not leave, promised to rule subjects, like he said, promised to change government to put loyalists in government and to use the power of the Justice Department, the power of prosecutors, the surveillance to get at his political enemies, who did all

that stuff, then gets the power and then decides, nah, I'm not going to actually use it. I mean, I'm not a historian, but I've heard historian say, never. And why? It's because that's how our brains work. Right. I do want to harken back to something that you mentioned before, and that is that, you know, if Trump wins in November, the pardon power actually factors. quite heavily into his presidency, wherein he himself would, of course, enjoy full immunity,

but his accolites who don't enjoy presidential immunity because they're not the president could also then engage in criminal activity because the Supreme Court did announce that pardons, too, are effectively untouchable. So can you speak on that? Does this, does this not fly in the face of the spirit of what pardons are supposed to do? Or are they truly intended to just be an instrument wielded by a president that should not and cannot be challenged? challenged, period, full stop. Yeah, I mean, that's the toxic mix that you just said, that I don't think people are understanding, uh, pardons plus immunity is just, it's a disaster zone.

I mean, that, that is just an extraordinarily amount of power thanks to the United States Supreme Court. To answer your question, you know, yes and no in that when, you know, kings of England had the pardon power, they abused it. They were kings. Um, but the idea behind the pardon power, which goes all the way back to, you know, pre-biblical times, the code of homerobes. in ancient Babylonia.

And of course, the famous pardon, Jesus Christ was denied a pardon by the Roman people in favor of a, you know, a murderer named Barabbas. And Jesus Christ, Christian religion is based on the denial of a pardon. The idea of a pardon, though, is there was not a criminal justice system back then. There was not jury trials until the 13th century. There were not fourth, fifth, six amendments. There were not appeals.

There were not judges. There was not procedural rights and systems. And so the king had to come in sometimes and make sure, you know, I talk about in the book, a four-year-old girl who pushes her brother into a boiling water, you know, you make sure a child doesn't get a death sentence, right? Or you kind of stop this cycle of violence. And then, you know, kings would send, you know, pardoned convicts and send them to the America and Australia, right, in exchange for a pardon. So it was abused. But when James Madison and Alexander Hamilton argued for a broad pardon power at the Constitutional Convention,

rejecting proposals to require Senate consent, rejecting proposals to ban pardons for treason. Their argument was you need to have somebody to exercise mercy. There needs to be a stopgap, a valve. And at that point, too, there was. We didn't have the Bill of Rights. There needs to be some protections. The idea that that somehow translates into using,

you know, the SEAL Team 6 to assassinate to political rivals and then pardoning the SEAL Team 6 members and anyone? I mean, of course, Brian. That's totally antithetical to the idea behind democracy and government by the people and liberty and all the things that are underpinnings of our system of government.

It's ridiculous. Well, it was an excellent read and obviously I think there's so much more here to dive into and I wish we did have more time to do exactly that. But for folks watching right now, please do yourself a favor grab the book pardon power how the pardon system works and why Kim thank you so much for taking the time i appreciate it it was really fun thanks for having me

thanks again to debby and kim that's it for this episode talk to you next week you've been listening to no lie with brian tyler cohen produced by sam graber music by wellsy and interviews edited for youtube by nicholas nicotera if you want to support the show please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating and a review And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to Briantellercoen.com to learn more.