No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Trump drags the US into new war in the Middle East

Episode Date: June 22, 2025

Trump drags the US into a new Middle Eastern war. Brian interviews Senator Tina Smith about her confrontation with Republican Senator Mike Lee after he mocked Democrats who’d been assassinated, NYC comptroller Brad Lander about being arrested by the Trump administration, and Democratic nominee for NJ governor Mikie Sherrill about what she’ll do if and when Trump targets her blue state. Support Mikie Sherrill: https://mikiesherrill.com/Support Brad Lander: https://landerfornyc.com/Shop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today, we're going to talk about our new Middle Eastern War and what it means for Americans moving forward. And I've got three interviews. I speak with Senator Tina Smith about her confrontation with Republican Senator Mike Lee after he mocked Democrats who'd been assassinated, New York City comptroller Brad Lander about being arrested by the Trump administration and Democratic nominee for New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill about what she'll do if and when Trump targets her blue state. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie.

So the United States, it seems. is now at war, as Donald Trump announced a U.S. attack on three nuclear sites in Iran, which means that one of two things can happen now. One, Iran takes the attack lying down, doesn't retaliate, and we carry on in a period of peace and prosperity. Or Iran does retaliate, and our military bases overseas, become immediate targets. We might also see Iran's allies, China and Russia, seek to get involved. It's obviously anybody's guess what happens next, but one thing is abundantly clear, and that is that Trump's hold his supporters a Bill of Goods by pretending that he was the anti-war candidate on the ballot in 2024. Here's just a small sampling of these

promises. These globalists want to squander all of America's strength, blood, and treasure, chasing monsters and phantoms overseas. In addition, there must also be a complete commitment to dismantling the entire globalist neocon establishment that is perpetually dragging us into endless wars, pretending to fight for freedom and democracy abroad. We should have never gone into the Middle East. We should have never gone into the Middle East. Under my leadership, we will turn the page forever

on those foolish, stupid days of never-ending wars. We're rebuilding our military stronger than ever before, and we are not going to deplete it again. on stupid, senseless, endless, endless wars. World War III has never been closer than it is right now. We need to clean house of all of the warmongers and America last globalist in the deep state. And of course, we're now fewer than six months into Trump's presidency

and he attacks Iran. If Trump had a mandate when he came into office, it was peace. The official GOP Twitter account literally dubbed Trump in Vance the, quote, pro-peace ticket. Here's RFK Jr., reiterating that claim. If you want to avoid nuclear war, I strongly urge you to vote for Donald Trump. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a vote for Kamala Harris is a vote for nuclear war. And here's Tulsi Gabbard, again echoing that sentiment. Here is the choice that we have.

A vote for Kamala Harris is a vote for Dick Cheney, and it's a vote for war, more war, likely World War III and nuclear war. A vote for Donald Trump is a vote for a man who wants to end wars, not start them. And I mean, it goes on and on. Again, a mandate for peace that has been obliterated. Unless, of course, you're of the mind that Iran will just, you know, dutifully accept the attack and refuse to retaliate, which flies in the face of common sense. Oh, and also the statement that was put out on Iranian state TV saying, quote, every American citizen or military in the region is now a target.

The same people, then, who spent the last decade wailing about Benghazi, just put every American in the Middle East at risk. And of course, if and when that attack comes, something tells me that Republicans in Congress and the Senate aren't going to hold Hillary Clinton-style hearings because it's fine when Trump does it. But this is what Trump does, and this is what Republicans empower him to get away with.

He runs as the peace candidate and immediately plunges us into war, just like he vowed to lower costs, immediately sent them surging thanks to his trade war, vowed to protect to earn benefits and immediately moved to cut them, vowed law and order and instantly pardoned 1,500 January 6th insurrectionists. And look, I'm not here to do like I told you so's, because while that might feel good, it doesn't get us anywhere moving forward. So my message to everybody out there who bought the bill of goods that Trump sold them based on this whole anti-war schick that he put on is that this is a Republican Party that has nothing but contempt for you.

Your vote is not a contract based on campaign promises, but rather a vehicle for their own consolidation of power. This is what happens when you entrust the GOP with majorities. Don't make the same mistake again. Next up are my interviews with Tina Smith, Bradlander, and Mikey Cheryl. No lie is brought to you by Uplift Desk. Physio, chiropractic, and massage therapy are all great resources for when you need them. But going to these appointments every few weeks or months does not give me the ultimate results that I'm looking for when it comes to my well-being.

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15-year warranty that covers your entire desk and an extra discount off your entire order. That's U-P-L-I-F-T-D-E-S-K dot com slash BTC for a special offer, and it's only available at our link. Make sure to stand, move, thrive with Uplift Desk. I'm joined now by the U.S. Senator from Minnesota, Tina Smith. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you so much, Brian. It's great to be with you, even though it is such a sad, sad moment for me and my state of Minnesota, and I think the whole country.

Yeah, and that's what I want to speak. with you about because we are right now in the horrific aftermath of this senseless and tragic shooting where state representative Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark were killed and also Democratic State Senator John Hoffman and his wife Yvette were shot and are recovering right now. And this was all at the hands of a gunman who posed as a police officer and basically entered these legislators' homes in order to assassinate them. And that was immediately followed by Senator Mike Lee of Utah, effectively becoming the main character on the internet this weekend because he used the opportunity not to mourn their deaths or speak out against the senseless

violence, but instead to post a couple of tweets onto Twitter, and I'm going to put them right here on the screen. One says, Nightmare on Wall Street, and the next one says, this is what happens when Marxists don't get their way. And so that was followed today by news that you had actually confronted Mike Lee. So can you explain first and foremost what you discussed with him when you spoke with him. Well, so I come back to Washington after having experienced just this huge tragedy, a personal tragedy, because Melissa Hortman and John Hoffman are both friends of mine. And to know that Melissa was, and her husband were gunned down at their doorsteps by this assassin who was impersonating a police officer. We have been grappling with the reality of that. And it's so

painful. And of course, here we have Mike Lee in the United States Senate posting this horrible picture. And I, and this terrible tweet, and I just feel like so often we respond to one another on social media. And I wanted him, I wanted to look him in the eye and tell him what I thought and how it made me and so many other Minnesotans feel that he had done this. And so I'm waiting for him. I'm trying to track him down. And I kind of honestly have to chase after him a bit because he is, you know, doing that old thing of talking on the phone. And so I chased him down into a room where the Republicans were about to have a caucus meeting. pulled him out. And I told him, I said, I want you to know what you did is you put a picture

of the man who killed my friend. And then you said, this is what happens. And think about the consequences of that. I wanted him to think about those consequences and what it means. And what it means, not just to me, but to all of the people that are in so much pain because of this loss, I honestly, Brian, I don't think this is a man who is frequently confronted by anybody. And I will tell you, he seemed a little shocked to have anybody challenging him, let alone one of his colleagues. But I think it's so called on. We need to speak directly to one another in this moment about the impact of what people are saying and doing. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a big difference between somebody who views himself as a keyboard warrior and can hide behind the computer

screen all day. Did he seem receptive to what you were saying to him? Did it sink in at all? Or was it just, you know, did he just take in the information in one ear out the other? I mean, I think my clear sense is that he was listening to what I was saying. As I said, I think he was sort of stunned to be coming face to face with somebody who was really calling him out on his bullshit. But I also, my approach to him was not like yelling at him, but like, I want to have a conversation with you about what this really is, what's really happening here. And I believe that he heard me, but I don't know that he honestly knew exactly what to do with that. And I hope, I mean, I hope that he will think about that. And, you know, ultimately, this way in which people take advantage of even the people like

Mike Lee and others on the right take advantage of the worst kind of human tragedy and political violence to sort of use it as further fuel for this fire is just unacceptable. Can you speak about that in the broader context of a lot of this right-wing violence that we're seeing kind of bubble up in the ecosystem because it's not, it would be bad enough unto itself if this stuff was happening just in a vacuum. But then to be, to have it be, um, to have it be validated at the highest levels of the U.S. government, I mean, this is a United States senator, to your exact point saying, this is what, like, it, no, like there should never be a moment where this is what happens. There's no, there's never a justification for assassination,

especially, especially in an instance where he's outright lying about who this assassin was. There's this talking point on the right that this is some long time Democrat. I mean, this guy had a list of Democratic officials that he was looking to kill. That's not usually how it works. No, no. So, you know, just can you speak on this broader idea of kind of the normalization of violence in right-wing circles? Well, I think there's two things happening simultaneously that are both very, very dangerous. The first is this sort of, as you say, normalization of violence and political violence.

So using violence to quell or stop or intimidate or even kill your political. adversary. But the other thing that's happening amongst these right-wing folks is that they're basically saying, oh, you know, this kind of political violence, it happens on the left as well as happening on the right. And so, and they try to pretend that this violence in this case in Minnesota was actually driven by left-wing ideology when, I mean, that is clearly not what is going on here. And we see this over and over and over again. It's a little bit like, well, they did it or on the one hand, on the other hand, thinking that allows Republicans in positions of leadership in the United States Senate and in other places to basically say, this is just happening and it's not just us,

which of course is not what is happening on our country right now. And let's be honest, here we have Donald Trump, our president. One of the first actions that he took was to pardon the insurrectionists who injured police officers who did damage to our democracy and to the people's house of the U.S. Congress. So, yeah, it's just unacceptable. I should have asked you this at the very top, but how are you doing? I mean, you, these were your friends. I mean, how are, how are you doing? How is, how is this community of people doing, especially, I mean, this would be difficult enough unto itself, but then to also layer on top of it, just a whole, I mean, having people at the highest levels of government just use this as, as a basically a political punching bag to score

some cheap, cheap win over the weekend. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm so full. of grief and anger and confusion, honestly, about what is happening in our country. And we were in Minnesota, we have a big party dinner every year. And Friday night was the evening of our big party dinner. So we were all together. I was there with Melissa and Mark, her husband, and John Hoffman and Yvette. We were having a big celebration and kind of a call to come together for the work that we have ahead of us. And then just a few short hours later to know that they were murdered, assassinated. Honestly, I'm still trying to process that it's really happened. I can't quite believe that she's gone. And you would have loved her. She was just like such a no bullshit. Tell it like

she saw it. She called out people, even if they were people in power on their nonsense. She worked to get things done. She wasn't just a talker. She was a doer. She was so funny. And I can hardly believe that she's gone. Well, I'm, you know, I can at least say that, that I'm sure that, you know, everybody is grateful that we've got folks like you who are making sure to preserve, preserve their memories as for who they actually were. You know, there was another instance, I believe it was last week, in the immediate aftermath of the ice raids where a Democratic lawmaker approached Mike Johnson and basically had like a quiet moment with him that wasn't intended for the cameras, although the cameras caught a glimpse of this moment, where he was told to speak to

Donald Trump to tamp down the rhetoric. And so we have the ice raids, for example, where innocent people are being terrorized because Donald Trump, I don't know, needed a distraction from his bad week of press with the fallout with Elon Musk and this budget bill is going to strip health care away from 14 million Americans. And so, you know, looked at the punching bag that is Los Angeles and decided to rip families apart so that we could talk about that instead of his bad political fortunes, and now we have this instance. And so do you think that there's any sense among the very small sliver of people in the Republican conference who can actually get through to Trump, possibly? I mean, if anybody's going to be able to get to it, it might be

nobody, but if anybody could, it's probably these people. Do you think it's beginning to sink in with these people? Maybe not the Mike Lee's of the world, but is there a sense of we have crossed the Rubicon here? And if we don't get our shit together at some point, things are are going to go from bad to worse really quickly. Yeah, I mean, I wonder, and I ask myself that all the time. In my view is that right now in the job that I have, I need to leave space for that. And I need to also use my power to put pressure on that and try to do that in a smart way and in a way that will maybe have some impact on the people, on the folks that could be

influenced. Because, I mean, we don't need, you know, there's 53 members of the Republican caucus in the United States Senate. We don't need 50 of them or 40 of them. We just need a handful of them to say, this is not the way we're going to do things. No, we're not going to go along with this. We're not going to go along with your bullshit. No, we're not going to put up with this.

And in a way, they are really standing up for themselves. They're standing up for their own power and their own prerogatives of representatives of their states. They're standing up for what the United States Senate should be. And I will never give up hope that that will happen, even though I see only faint hope as I look at these folks that just seem to be walking in such lockstep. I don't know whether it's out of fear or whether it's out of, you know, just fun, you know, lack of political courage or what it is exactly. I can't see into their minds, but see all of the above. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Well, let's finish off with this. I know that you had touched upon this before, but is there anything else that you'd like to say about Melissa and her husband, again, so that we have some sense of, okay, this is, you know, who they were and that you have the opportunity to offer folks a little bit of insight into who they were as opposed to to, to, to those who are trying to pervert their memory. Well, maybe I'll tell just one quick story that I love. When Melissa was a minority leader in the Minnesota House, there was an evening when women, Democratic women, were giving speeches on the floor of the house. And in the back room, the floor was

kind of empty. And in the back room was a small group of legislators. And Melissa came out on the floor, and she said, there is a hundred percent white Republican caucus in the back room playing cards while these women are out here talking about their stories and talking about their lives. And created a huge hollabaloo. And the Republican men all were like, she must apologize. She should, you know, she should resign. This is outrageous what she did, calling us out on the Senate floor. And Melissa basically said, sorry, not sorry. I'm just going to tell the truth. I'm just going to say what I think is real. I'm going to call bullshit when I see it. And it was a great example of how sometimes it takes a little bit of courage, but actually when you're telling the truth, I believe you do get

rewarded. Yeah. Well, look, I know I speak for a lot of people in thanking you for the courage that you had to confront Mike Lee and to share, you know, some memories you have of her. And I appreciate you taking the time tonight. Thanks a lot. Thanks for giving you a chance to talk about my friend, Melissa. No Lie is brought to you by Acorns. So it's never too early to start thinking about retirement. And that's why Acorns is especially important. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start investing for your retirement because the sooner you start, the more chance your money has to grow. And you don't need to be an expert. Acorns recommends a diversified IRA portfolio that can help you weather all of the markets ups and downs, which we've seen happen more and more

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Paid on client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorn's Tier 2 compensation provided investment advice. Acorns Advisors, LLC, and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash BTC. I'm joined now by New York City Comptroller and mayoral candidate, Bradlander. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Brian. Great to be on with you. So you've made some news today as you were the latest in a long line of Democratic officials,

Democratic candidates, or just people who the Trump administration perceives as political enemies to be arrested by this administration. So what preceded this arrest? This is actually the third week in a row where I've gone. town to immigration court hearings with a group called Immigrant Arc to observe the proceedings and then accompany people as they try to leave the building. Starting about three weeks ago, they started stripping people of their status. It's a new thing that Department of Homeland Security is doing to what they call dismiss people's cases, but what that really does is dismiss their

asylum applications, renders them with no status, and makes them subject to expedited removal. So what we're doing is observing and then just trying to walk out of the building with people. And over the last three weeks, I've been able to walk out with five families who got reunited. But in this case, that is not what happened. Well, isn't the whole point of what the Trump administration came into office promising is that they would go after the hardened criminals, the people who weren't following the rules? Aren't these inherently the opposite? These are the folks who are showing up to their hearings. Aren't these the people that are following the rules, the people who the Trump administration claims?

are actually doing the thing that the Trump administration claims are actually following the law? Yes. Every one of these families, you know, checked in when they crossed at the border, showed up for their hearing. Most of them have submitted asylum applications and are deserve under international law what's called a credible fear hearing to understand whether they have a grounded credible fear of persecution if they're deported. And what is happening here is they are being stripped of their rights to that due process hearing. And yes, these are not folks who have any who have been accused of any crime. These are not folks who try to sneak around ice at the border. They have done everything right. And the ground is just being ripped right out from under

their feet. Right. I mean, presumably, you are not walking violent criminals through these courtrooms, just as a matter of, just as a matter of politics, I mean, you're running for the mayor of New York. That's probably not the people that you are going to align yourself with. And yet, even that fact doesn't seem to be ignored by this Trump administration who is going after everyone indiscriminately. They are trying to strike fear. I mean, Donald Trump is coming to strike fear into immigrant families and just fear into cities. I mean, he's coming for L.A. He's coming for New York. He's coming for other cities. And he's trying to both stoke fear and provoke conflict.

And so what I was trying to do, what this, you know, what we're trying to do as volunteers is bring a little clarity. These folks have no idea what's going on to say, you know, we're dismissing the case sounds good. And the case actually before the one that I got arrested for, where I also tried to walk the gentleman onto the building, his native language is Yoraba. The translator that was provided to him speaks French. And when the judge was trying to explain.

when I dismiss your case, you'll have no status. And he looked and he's like, and then she said, do you understand? And he's like, no, what do you mean? I'll have no status. And, you know, they, so yes, what we're trying to do is, is give people a little understanding, allay that fear, and then just help them have the due process that they're due. But yes, what Donald Trump wants is for everyone to be afraid, for conflict to be stoked. and for those due process rights for the rule of law to be undermined.

And that's why I thought as an elected official in New York City, starting three weeks ago, when I heard about this, I should get my ass down there and do what I can for these families and for the rule of law in New York City. You know, I agree with you that Donald Trump's whole goal here is to stoke fear. He wouldn't do this if that wasn't the goal because that's clearly the result of this. Why do you think it is that in a situation where he could choose to do this in a way that is, you know, even with a modicum of empathy, he's instead going this route? I mean, he is trying to destroy our empathy. That's what authoritarian's do.

The compassion that we feel that makes New York City and L.A. great places, that makes America a great place, that we feel, that we feel some empathy for people, that we've got that Statue of Liberty out in the harbor. saying, send me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, that is what American democracy's built on. In my mind, that's what New York City is built on. That's why I love it. And he hates it. And what he wants to do is like hack is a road our empathy, have, you know, give some folks, you know, give people someone to blame for the troubles they're actually feeling of being able to afford a place to live or the other challenges folks are facing. And like, that's what fear does. Do you think it was a distraction that really this came to a head in the immediate aftermath of that really bad week for Trump politically, where he had his fallout with

Elon Musk. The budget bill was becoming increasingly unpopular. It became clear that it would add trillions to the deficit, also that it could offset a tax cut for millionaires and billionaires while stripping health care away from 14 million Americans and food assistance away to the tune of $300 billion. Suddenly then we have ICE getting sent in to L.A., knowing full well that in a city, you know, the city that I live that I live in, it's about a third immigrants. And so clearly that's going to incite some protests. And then he immediately used that as a pretense to be able to federalize the National Guard and send in the Marines. So to what extent do you think that was a coincidence or this is just a purposeful

distraction technique by Trump? Look, this is where Trump goes, you know, when he is like at his most visceral 10 years ago when he came down that staircase. It was by a attacking Mexicans, you know, and so I don't think it's surprising that at a moment when, yes, Americans are waking up to what that, quote, big, beautiful bill would do at how it would strip away health care and give tax breaks to billionaires. And he's thinking, what do I do to, you know, have people focus on what I want, that he ratchets up, you know, sends in the National Guard, tries to ratchet up aggressive deportations. Yeah, I think that's probably right.

In the immediate aftermath of your arrest, what happened next in between the time that you were taken away and that video has been swept across the internet today? But between the time that you were taken away and the time you were released, what happened in between that period of time? So I was in DHS detention for about three and a half hours, mostly just waiting, you know, sitting in a detention room without my phone. And so I didn't know what was going on out, out in the outside or in the, in the world. And then, yeah, about three and a half hours later, I was informed that Governor Hockel was there.

And they, you know, they released me. I connected with her and we walked out of the building. They have not brought charges against me. And, you know, my understanding is that the case is under review by the U.S. attorney's office. But look, what I think is really the most important to say, I mean, I'm going to be fine. I have a good lawyer. I know my rights and my due process will be protected.

I'm going to sleep at home in my bed tonight, safe with my family. But, Edgaro, who I was trying to accompany, he is in ICE detention. God knows where he's going to sleep tonight in an ICE detention facility. And who knows what state, he has no lawyer. No one even knows to look for him. He has been stripped of his due process rights. And the right asylum seekers have to provide. present the credible fear of persecution. So, you know, I, I appreciate, you know, all of the,

you know, nice attention that's been sent my way, but the place where our attention needs to be focused on what is, on what is happening in our immigration courts and what's happening in our cities. And I'm going to keep showing up for that. Well, look, the reality is that this was the latest incident that drew attention to what's happening with regard to Trump's ice raids and his Department of Homeland Security's overreach, but it won't be the last. And so to that point, what is your message to Donald Trump as he continues to perpetuate this scheme? We're going to keep standing up.

I mean, when Rasbaraka was arrested a few weeks ago, I rushed out to Newark to say, this is what we need to do. I mean, elected officials who care about the rule of law, who stand up for the people in their cities, that's what they do. And I thought it was, you know, important that he stood up and I wanted to be there. So I was grateful for everybody who came. out today, and we've got to stand up. I mean, our democracy is under threat right now. Like, this is, you know, when you have that poem, like, first they came for the communists. I didn't speak up

because I was not a communist, and then they came for the trade unionists, and then they came for the Jews, and then they came from me, and there was no one left to speak up. This is the time to stand up. So I will be back, you know, doing the observation and watching. I'd urge others to find ways to do it. I, you know, I was out in the streets as part of the New King's March over the weekend. We had, I think, 75,000 people here. And it was a beautiful march with so many people. I think there are other ways it's important to show up. And this is one of them. And so I'll keep doing it. And I hope others will as well. And of course, you're running for the mayor of New York. And so what's your message to New Yorkers in light of what happened today? Yeah, Donald Trump is

going to keep coming for us. Like, we can see it with our eyes. You can look at what happened in L.A. but you can also look at what's happening right here and coming for our immigrant neighbors, coming for our budget. You know, Trump and Musk stole $80 million from New York City a couple months ago was my office that found it and I forced the mayor into court to get it back. That is going to keep happening. They're going to keep coming for our neighbors, for the people we care about, for our budgets, for our health care, for our housing, for our education money, for the rule of law. So yes, I mean, I think all elected officials, like I did this today in my role, New York City controller, but I believe our city needs a mayor who will stand up to Trump

on behalf of the values that are reflected in that statue in the harbor. We don't have that in Eric Adams, who made a corrupt bargain with Donald Trump to sell out immigrant New Yorkers, and we sure would not have it in Andrew Cuomo, who, I don't know folks saw this, but on the debate stage last week, you know, we all got asked, how will you stand up to Trump? And, you know, Cuomo has this idea that you, like, do it by, like, poking a finger in people's chest. But I asked him about these immigrant subway cleaners, who he forced the MTA to hire during the pandemic and then cheated out of the prevailing wages and health care they were due. And my office is responsible for enforcing the prevailing wage. So I asked him about that.

And somehow out of his mouth came the words illegal immigrants, like, and I could tell what he was worried about was not that they had been cheated out of their, you know, their pay or their health care or their due process, but that he might look bad. And at this moment, like New York needs a mayor who will stand up to Donald Trump and fight for those democratic values for our immigrant neighbors and for the traditions the city is based on. And, you know, I think this is an important moment for elected officials everywhere, just to reflect on what it means to show up for the rule of law for due process

and for the constitutional values we care about the most. How can folks who are watching and listening right now help your campaign? So lander for nyc.com, L-A-N-D-E-R-F-O-R-N-Y-C dot com, sign up there. It's get out the vote. I mean, the election is one week from today. I started at a subway stop. I did not expect this to happen. But, yes, what we're doing every day is getting out the word.

So please, you know, email your friends in New York. If you're not in New York, if you're in New York, sign up for a shift. Come out to a poll site. Early voting is underway every day now through Sunday. The election day is a week from today. And it's a critical time for the future of our city. Well, look, I will always be glad to use my platform to elevate the fighters.

And I appreciate you putting your body. and your freedom on the line today to fight back against the overreach of this administration. So with that said, thank you for taking the time today and best luck in the campaign trail. Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to your listeners. Now we've got the Democratic nominee for the governor of New Jersey. Mikey Sherrill, thanks so much for taking the time. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. So first off, congratulations on the primary win. We are now heading toward the general election.

But I just want to zoom out for a moment here. We recently saw Donald Trump send ICE into Los Angeles, which is the city that I live in. That, of course, sparked protest because this is a city that's composed of a third immigrants. And he used that as a pretense to then be able to send in the Marines and federalize the National Guard. And so this is happening because, you know, California, Los Angeles, this is a blue city in a blue state with a blue governor that Donald Trump likes to use as a punching bag. Jersey is another true blue state. And so if and when this happens in New Jersey, what will your response be? Yeah, that's a great question. I was just speaking to a friend of mine in L.A. who was working about a block from the ICE detention facility or the ICE Center where the troops are

on the street. And she was saying she's getting these calls from all over the country to commiserate with her about how horrible it is. And she said, you know, we're not seeing the things on the street that Fox News is doing. The really scary part, though, is that we're we have armed troops in our streets, which, of course, is not the appropriate use of armed forces unless it's in the most extreme moment, right? Which, by the way, is exactly what the police chief of the LAPD, which isn't exactly some liberal, not known to be some liberal force, has said as well. Well, and what you was saying, too, is it seems as if it's creating a lot more work for

the LAPD because now they are, the LAPD, are protecting the National Guard because those people in the street are very concerned. So they're coming out. So now the LAPD has more people out in the street so that they can ensure that nobody, you know, approaches the National Guard now. And so it's sort of, you have these layers of ICE who are armed people. And then you have the National Guard armed against ICE. And then you have the LAPD as a layer. It just starts to be chaos, which is exactly what the president wants and isn't an appropriate use, I would say again, of armed troops, which is why as governor, I would really stand strongly against that, using the court systems to get them out of there. I think it's illegal what the president's doing. I would be working to hold

him accountable for that. There is not an insurrection going on in the streets of L.A. right now. So he should not be using the insurrection act. He's not really delineated very well what he's doing. In fact, when Pete Hegseth was asked why he wanted to put Marines on the street under what authority, he said the Constitution, he was asked what part of the Constitution. This is a document we use a legal framework. It's not just a vibes document. We don't just say like, oh, it's like the vibe of the Constitution. He couldn't say what it was. So this is an administration that's out of control that is trying to utilize power in inappropriate ways. And as governor, I'd hold them accountable. If you look back to 2020, Donald Trump had an instance where he tried to seize

voting machines to do God knows what with, but he had no way to actually effectuate this plan. Is there some concern that by using, you know, ICE or protests as a pretense to be able to send in the military to American cities, that he will then have soldiers at his disposal to be able to effectuate plans that he might not have been successful with in 2020, but clearly had some interest in doing? Oh, I have incredible concerns in this space. And I'll tell you why. I'm a military veteran. I'm a former Navy helicopter pilot. I've served in me. been stationed all over the world. I've served in countries where they don't have the rule of law for the people, where people just answer to the autocrat and charge. And so if you speak out against the person in power, you can be disappeared. I have had calls to my office about with families trying to look for people. There are people being picked up without charges. It does not end with people on green cards. This certainly starts to morph into people being detained.

if they just speak out against the government. So what I worry about, to your point, is things like this now seems as if the president is training law enforcement, ICE, for example, to not follow the law and the Constitution, but simply follow his orders. This is now an instance which admirals and generals have spoken out from multiple administrations, even generals who work for Donald Trump, have spoken out to say, look, this is an inappropriate use of the military in his first administration, because, again, Again, the military should be following the law and the Constitution and not simply the president.

It's why you saw Millie, General Millie, who worked for Trump in his first administration. You saw him passionately talk about a nation of laws and the Constitution, how everyone takes an oath to the Constitution, not the president. So I think you were exactly right. This presents, this to me is a president attempting to create a personal militia of the United States Armed Forces. saw it, he tried to do it in his first administration. He was largely unsuccessful because at that time the admirals and generals pushed back so hard. But then we saw people on the streets during COVID, if you recall, they were guarding different monuments. They didn't have insignia. They had their faces hidden. We, you know, they were not answering where they came from. We think it might have

been Department of Corrections. So he's, again, attempting to create this militia. And then we saw January 6th with an insurrection. So again and again and again, we've seen a president trying to create a person militia. And as we've seen him usurp power in so many different ways, having an armed militia at his fingertips is very, very dangerous. I want to switch gears a little bit here because Republicans right now are trying to usher through the budget bill that would strip health care away from 14 million Americans by cutting Medicaid that would cut food stamps to the tune of $300 billion that would explode the deficit. Estimates are between $3 and $5 trillion, dollars all at the hands of the fiscal conservatives and the GOP. What would this do to the folks in

New Jersey? This completely upends the model of the United States, the American dream, if you will, the idea of presenting opportunity to the middle class. And it certainly would do that in New Jersey. It would raise costs on housing because this is going to borrow trillions of dollars in debt if this passes, which would raise interest rates in the cost of borrowing. It would raise cost of power. We're seeing in the Northeast, this bill would raise cost of power in the Northeast by $100 per family, for example. It raises costs on 80% of Americans while just funneling money to the top 20%. It's really a shocking change in this American ideal we've had of creating opportunity for as many people as possible investing in the middle class. This simply creates

an economy that we just haven't seen here in recent time since the robber barren days. And I think I'll just tell you what this looks like because it tracks with my own family. My family lost everything in the Great Depression. And they were out of a job. They moved in with, you know, when my grandfather was little, he moved in with his grandparents. They had nothing. He got a union job after FDR expanded the economy to create opportunity. And because of that, place my family squarely in the middle.

middle class. That's why I think I'm in Congress. So this is a reshaping, a total reshaping of the American economy, taking away money and economic opportunity from the middle class. So we have New Jersey is one of two states, New Jersey and Virginia, that have off-year gubernatorial election. So your election is coming up in November. This is a state that we generally think of as a true blue state. But Trump only lost to Kamala, I think it was 46 to 52 in this last election cycle. So there's been some shift to the right. And so for a lot of these folks who have left the Democratic Party or who may have voted for Barack Obama or Joe Biden and then opted to vote for Trump, what's your plan to get those people back? Yeah. So I think what New Jerseyans want to see

as well-run efficient government and protection of rights and freedoms. And while they see everything coming from Washington and Donald Trump is an attack on rights and freedoms and attack on the economy of New Jersey. And we have a Republican, Jack Chittarelli, who's running basically to, you know, saying he's going to be, you know, whatever Trump wants, he's going to do. He's been in lockstep. That's usually, that's usually how it works in the GOP. There's usually not much, not much space between Trump and the candidates. Yeah. Exactly. And so you see what New Jerseyans want is a real pathway forward for a more affordable New Jersey. New Jersey has gotten completely unaffordable. and we're just not addressing some of the nuts and bolts of how we deliver for the middle class.

So by that, I mean, we've got to build more houses. Affordability is just unattainable for so many people. And the thing I hear the most about is the cost of mortgages, the cost of rents. It's gone up by about 50% over the past five years in the state. We see utility prices going up 20% this summer. And our health care system is going up every single year and has gone up exponentially for working families. So all these costs are making it really difficult. That's why I've run an affordability agenda on how I'm going to build houses,

on how I'm going to drive utility costs down, fix the broken health care system. And I will tell you both the idea of affordability and standing up against Trump and Washington and the attacks on rights and freedoms in the economy has been very compelling because we saw record level turnout in this Democratic primary. We set records to give you a sense of what that looks. like last year in the presidential primary, you would have thought that would have been the larger number. 550,000 roughly done showed up. And this one, 825,000. So it's a scale like we've never seen. And compare and contrast that with the Republican turnout, they had a contested primary election.

Only about half that, about 400,000 people showed up. So I think that shows that this path forward on wanting people to have the constitutional protections, legal protections, a state of laws, a state of making sure people's rights and freedoms are protected, well, at the same time, relentlessly focused on driving out costs and really truly making Trenton work for people, that is a compelling message. That's what the people of New Jersey want to see. And I think that's really going to set the table well for what people I think across the country want to see. Does New Jersey fit into the Ezra Klein abundance discourse that we've been speaking about where really the biggest impediment to being able to build in these states and cities that are controlled by Democrats is the fact that we have so much bureaucracy standing in the way of actually being able to get anything done to the point where it takes years to get through these environmental reviews that are well intentioned. But the net result of them is that we actually end up not being able to do anything, which reflects poorly on Democratic. governance and then Democrats have trouble making the case to people to even stay into office

or get elected because when you look at when you look at the ways in which democratic policies that again may have been well-meaning are are impeding our ability to be able to govern then that that really doesn't send send the right message yes and it's it's those policies that are impeding innovation and moving forward but it's also those policies that are then enabling every little group that doesn't want something to happen to shut it all down at the expense of the whole. So what would be your plan to confront something like that? Yeah. Well, that's exactly what I am pledging to do, to go in and to disrupt some of these laws and regulations that have been on the books for years that are holding things up, having all of my commissioners, which are like

cabinet members at the federal level. So that commissioners of, you know, education, and labor and transportation coming and saying, here, this week, here are the five regulations that make no sense this week that we're going to start to clean up and we're going to keep doing. So across the board, that's hundreds a week that we're really just starting to clean up and then driving down time, having a dashboard for when you're going to get through the permitting process. So right now there's zero transparency. So you submit a permit. You have set up your restaurant. You've hired people because you have to have the whole thing ready to go by the time you apply for the permit. You're paying rent on the space you're occupying as you want to

open up. And you're just bleeding money as you're waiting to get through permitting. And you have no idea how long it's going to take. And so I will have a dashboard so you can look in and say, oh, I'm almost here. And then as governor, I can say, why are all the permits getting stuck right here in this space and push through it. And honestly, you just look next door in Pennsylvania, another state run by a Democratic governor. They have got the permitting times down for a small business by 90%. So this is something that I can take on very quickly and start to drive in results very quickly. Okay. And then you had also mentioned health care. I mean, it feels like it's very convenient to be able to say to bring down health care costs. And so what would a plan

and B in order to be able to do that? And what would you focus on specifically? And I'm the kid of two registered nurses who work in health care in New Jersey. And so I'm just particularly interested in this. Yeah. So it starts with getting an independent auditor into the state health benefits plan. That could save money and also give ideas of how we start to attack and address some of the lack of transparency in the plan, lack of cost transparency as we're trying to advocate for different procedures, where the costs are coming from, how we drive those down. But also taking on the PBMs, those are the middlemen and pharmaceutical costs that can drive up pharmaceutical drugs up to 10 times, for example. That's where it starts. I do worry very much

right now because as we are seeing our state health benefits plan in New Jersey really needing to be addressed because it's not in a good place right now, we're also seeing the attacks from the federal government on Medicare and Medicaid possibly coming in this bill. So a lot of that, too, is going to have to be reckoned with. So you have a teetering health system and then you have the federal government attacking health care. So those are two perfect storms that are going to take a lot of work. That's why as governor, should they try to stop paying into Medicare and Medicaid in the state, I'm going to take, you know, I'm going to take him to court, work with other Democratic government governors to start to claw back that federal money because here's the thing. New Jersey.

Jersey sends $70 billion more to the federal government than we get back. Our whole state budget is $58 billion. We send $70 billion more to Washington, D.C., then we get returned to us. And so we really need that money to run these programs, whether it's Medicare, Medicaid, Department of Ed funding, National Institute of Health Funding, et cetera. And so if the federal government's not going to run these programs that they're on the hook for, then we shouldn't be paying into these programs that they're not running anymore.

We need that money back in New Jersey so we can begin to run these programs ourselves. And that's similar to what Gavin Newsom said from here in California, where he threatened not to paint the federal government if the federal government is not going to uphold its end of the bargain. Two quick questions on that is, would you join into that effort and do you think it would hold up to legal scrutiny? Yes, I'm going to join in that effort. And if this bill passes and they stop running these programs, 100% I'm getting involved in that legal effort. And that's what we're going to find out, because I am running as governor in this time with these attacks from the federal government to take a very broad view of state power in the way that we see Trump trying to usurp so much federal power.

Which, by the way, used to be a Republican position way back when when they were states' rights defenders. I know, exactly. And we'll see if they still hold true to it. I have some doubts. But we're in a federalist system. And so we're seeing that. that with the Senate and the House,

they've been completely acquiescing to Donald Trump in a really dangerous way. So the other check on expansive, you know, centralized power, it's the states right now. And so we really need to utilize that as many of the founding fathers would have envisioned to expand state power to push back against someone who is trying to really consolidate power

in an anti-democratic way. This is another check on that kind of, kind of unmitigated power that Trump is trying to accrue to himself. And finally, let's finish off with this, because I have to make sure that I speak up for my people. And so I have to ask, does Central Jersey exist? So I have been to many places in Central Jersey. My daughter's going to kill me because she's on the other side of this fight. But I will tell you, yeah, there's a lot going on there.

If you haven't been back recently, you should come see us again. And then I am going to have to put a plug in or I'm going to get killed by my people on my campaign to please ask if you're interested in this, if you want to see what we're building here in this state, if you want to get involved, please go to Mikey Sherrill.com. We are really building a just, I call it, a juggernut of a campaign in New Jersey because I think this is how we set the table for moving forward in a different way in this country than we see coming from Washington. I think it starts here in New Jersey.

Being a good Jersey boy, I'm sure you'll understand as the center of the universe. We are starting it right here, and we are going to move forward in a different kind of way. So thank you so much for having me on today. Of course. And just a reminder for everybody watching that this is one of two states that has off-year elections and having a big win in New Jersey in November of this year will give Democrats the momentum as we head into midterms in 2026. So I'm going to put the link to your website right here on the screen.

and also in the post description. If you're listening on the podcast, I'm going to put it in the show notes of this episode. Mikey Sherrill, thank you so much for taking the time. Best luck in the campaign trail. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Take care.

Thanks again to Tina Smith, Bradlander, and Mikey Sherrill. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show, please subscribe on your preferred podcast app

and leave a five-star rating in a review. And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to Brian Tyler Cohen.com to learn more.