No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen - Trump's 3-step plan for autocracy

Episode Date: July 14, 2024

Trump introduces a 3-step plan to enable him to govern as an autocrat. Brian interviews Jen Psaki about Joe Biden’s uncertain path forward and whether airing these grievances out in public is hurting the party.Pre-order Shameless & buy book tour tickets: https://www.harpercollins.com/pages/shamelessShop merch: https://briantylercohen.com/shopYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/briantylercohenTwitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohenInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohenPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/briantylercohenNewsletter: https://www.briantylercohen.com/sign-upWritten by Brian Tyler CohenProduced by Sam GraberRecorded in Los Angeles, CASee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today, we're going to talk about the three-step plan to enable Donald Trump to govern as an autocrat, and I interview Jen Saki about Joe Biden's uncertain path forward and whether airing these grievances out in public is hurting the party. I'm Brian Tyler Cohen, and you're listening to No Lie. So there is a three-step plan in place right now for Trump if he wins in November to govern as an autocrat. The first is that you all know the Supreme Court has ruled that a president is no longer bound by criminal statutes, meaning he can commit criminal acts in office, claim that they're official acts and face no consequences as the result.

Meaning if he wants to silence his critics, assassinate his opponents, round up vulnerable communities into concentration camps, send the military into blue states, whatever it is, he will no longer be bound by the confines of law or the constitution. He would effectively be able to serve as a dictator. With that said, Trump can't do all this alone.

He needs allies who can help him, but those people wouldn't be protected by the sweeping presidential immunity that Trump would be protected by, and so they'd have a lot of legal exposure, which brings me to part two. Trump can issue pardons, and also thanks to the Supreme Court ruling, we now know that those pardons can't be challenged, even if they're given corruptly. It doesn't matter. They're untouchable now. So not only could Trump do whatever he wants, but he could amass an army of loyalists who will be able to help him and face no accountability whatsoever. But in terms of amassing

that army, that brings me to the final part, part three. You've heard of Project 2025. It is the the Trump agenda that he himself is now desperately trying to run away from, but which was authored by over 200 members of his first administration, and which Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts has already admitted would be enacted by Trump. Within that project is a plan to fire as many as 50,000 government workers and replace them with Trump loyalists who will carry out his agenda without any friction. Trump's plan is to revive one of his 2020 executive orders. It's called Schedule F that sought to reclassify tens of thousands of federal workers as political appointees, which would then allow for mass dismissals,

and then they would be replaced by Trump loyalists. So that move was ultimately nullified by Biden, but Trump's already signaled his intent to revive it if he wins. That means the DOJ wouldn't be staffed by Korea prosecutors, for example. It would be staffed by Trump Acolytes, who would then be in charge of, you know, for example, whether or not to prosecute conservative politicians who break the law,

who would be in charge of whether to continue combating the spread of disinformation by foreign actors, who would be in charge of prosecuting those who distribute abortions, abortion pills by mail. The list goes on and on. The entire federal legal apparatus in the United States would become a branch of the Republican Party and the Trump administration. And if there's any doubt about how real this is, consider the fact that the Biden administration has actually issued a new rule to make it harder to fire federal employees by barring career civil servants from being reclassified as political appointees. But a government rule is only as strong as the willingness of our government to actually abide by it. If all of the bulwarks did this kind of

overreach are Trump loyalists, then the rule is as good as gone. All of which is to say, we are witnessing a top-down effort by the Supreme Court, by the authors of Project 2025, and by Donald Trump himself to remake the government in their mold to be able to enact their draconian agenda in any way they seem fit, no matter how brutal or illegal or unconstitutional it may be. There will be no barrier, legal or otherwise, to what they'll do, which underscores the importance of making sure that we do the work on our end. And I know that there's a lot of consternation about Joe Biden right now, and I'll talk about that with Jen Saki in just a few moments, but I will say this, I don't know who's going to be at the top of the ticket. I can't predict the future and

anything can happen in politics in the year 2024. But whoever it is, whether it's Biden or Kamala or anyone else, just know that this election is not about any one specific person. It is about democracy versus autocracy. And regardless of what the issue is that animates you, whether it's, you know, abortion or climate or workers' rights or LGBT rights or gun safety, whatever it is. The only way we can have any progress is if we have a functioning democracy first. That is foundational. So I get that the media is obsessed with Democrats and disarray and that this issue is going to consume the news for at least the immediate future. But I'm focused on the bigger threat in front of us. And that is ensuring that everybody knows what's at stake

if Donald Trump gets anywhere near the levers of power again. Coming up is my interview with Jen Saki. But first, two quick announcements. The first is that I'm going on tour. So if you live in New York or D.C. or L.A. and you want to see me in person with Al Franken in New York or Jen Saki in D.C. or John Favreau in L.A. please visit Brian Tyler Cohen.com slash book or click the link in the show notes of this episode. There's still plenty of seats in D.C., but we're about to sell out in L.A. and New York. So if you want to come to the show and meet us, please make sure to grab tickets immediately. And the second is that my book is coming out in less than a month. So if you haven't yet pre-ordered shameless and you want the free-signed bookplate

that's only available in this pre-order period. Again, you can head over to Brian Tyler Cohen.com slash book or click that same link in the show notes. Really appreciate it. Okay, here's my interview with Jen Saki. Now we've got the former White House Press Secretary and the host of Inside with Jen Saki on MSNBC. Jen, thanks so much for taking the time.

I always love talking to you, Brian Tyler Cohen. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. We are obviously in a tough spot right now with the Democratic Party pretty clearly split regarding what to do as we move forward with Biden. So how have you been reconciling the difference in people who on one hand say we want to win and Biden's the only one who's done it? He enjoys the incumbency advantage. He's got a strong

record to run on with the other people who say we also want to win and we think it's too precarious with Joe Biden. So let's pivot to Kamala Harris who can more effectively prosecute a campaign against Donald Trump. Well, they're not necessarily, they're different points of view. But it's important to remember that all of the people with all of the views recognize the existential threat of Donald Trump. Right. Right. And that's just that's a great point.

Like, everyone is coming from a place of good faith and, and it's good to position it up front. It's important to remember that. And, you know, people are looking at their districts. They're hearing from their constituents. They're basing it on their own political instinct. Not everybody is possibly right in these scenarios, right? But I think it's, I actually think as challenging and slightly.

hellish of a period of time. This is within the Democratic Party. It also speaks to how the party is a party that cares about democracy, that cares about having real conversations about who can defeat Donald Trump and it's evidence of that as well. So I don't know if it can be reconciled because there is not a clear answer to that question. A lot of things are true at the same time, right? And so the points you raised are very true, right? If you're the Biden team and and people who feel it can only be him, they're looking at data and they're saying the race is close. We've always said that. Things haven't massively moved. You know, we're still doing what we need to do every day. The president just had a good press conference where he talked comprehensively

about a range of foreign policy issues. All those things are true. At the same time, what also is true is members of Congress, senators, people who are up for re-election who are saying, I'm concerned about whether he is up for the job, from what I saw in the press conference, I'm sorry, what I saw in the debate a couple of weeks ago, and what I'm hearing from my own constituents. That's the challenge of this moment. What I don't know, time means it has to be resolved, but how exactly it is going to be resolved. Yeah. Well, what is happening at the White House right now?

Like, you were in the inner circle while you were there. What are the conversations that are taking place behind the scenes? Yes, I was. I have not worked there in over two years, right? So I can just speak broadly, which is I know what you're asking me, but to speak broadly about the kinds of conversations happening in this moment, there are a number of very close, valued aids that the president has long listened to, people like McDonnellan and Steve Roshetti, Ted Kaufman, who actually took his spot in the Senate when the president became the vice president. These are all advisors who reportedly have been talking to him and who seem to very much want him to continue with the race. there have also been reports of other people, others in the White House who don't want him to continue. Now, it's important to read the fine print in moments like this because that reporting says it is not the inner circle and not people who have talked to President Biden.

There are thousands of people who work on the White House complex, so hard to know who those people are. But the conversations, I think, largely if you're in the White House or in the campaign, you're focused. on your day-to-day, your job and your agenda is to keep moving forward and keep supporting the president who has said publicly, and I'm certain privately, he wants to continue to be the nominee. Does that mean no one has doubts? Certainly not. Some of them do, right? And it's very frustrating moment. It's a hard moment. But that's what you're focused on day-to-day. Internally, they're looking at data. They're looking at fundraising numbers. They're reportedly calling delegates, which totally makes sense. And they're acquiring their own information about

the path forward. Ultimately, is it solely Joe Biden's decision as to what happens? I know people like to say that they are going to force him out, but I'm not so sure that there are these smoke-filled backrooms where these decisions are made by the they anymore. Right. And it doesn't even work that way. I mean, the president has campaigns across the country. Millions of people have voted for him. The delegates from the states that have already voted are bound to him in the first round at the convention. So it is, it's not just a talking point from a lot of people. It is technically true, right? That it is his choice. You know, there certainly could be pressure campaigns privately, which we may know some of the details. We may never know the

details. And certainly there could be publicly. And a number of members have called on him to step back from this moment, but technically, and, you know, it is his, it is his choice. Could I be annoying and ask for your prediction as to what you think is going to happen as we head toward November? It's not annoying at all. I mean, what is challenging, hard, maybe interesting in this moment is that no one knows what's going to happen. And if they tell you, they know what's going to happen, they're lying to you, right?

It is, so what I can tell you is what the likely paths are, right? One path is, and if you're the White House, again, as I've said, they have very valid arguments to make, but it's a game of time for them. And with every day and week that passes, the more likely it is, he holds on to the nomination. So to them, you just got to get passed day by day and week by week. And they've been, you know, he did the press conference. He's going to do an interview with Lester Holt. You just continue to schedule things so that there's more that people, are looking to.

And the Republican convention is obviously a whole other focus point where Democrats will unite around their hatred of Trump, right? So that is, if you're in the campaign, is an opportunity and advantage. The other path is there is data that suggests he doesn't have a path to win. There's data that suggests the House can't be won and the Senate will be lost if he stays on the ticket. Money could dry up. Delegates could leave.

If there are factors like that that make a path to victory difficult, the president can make a decision to step back. In that scenario, in all likelihood, the vice president would be the choice for a range of reasons, including he selected her for not exactly this reason. But as he said at the press conference, because he thought she could do the job, also she can, the money can be transferred to her. She's a very effective, I think she's an undervalued communicator. but she also would be, you know, an African-American woman, of course, at the top of the ticket, which it's not Shirley Chisholm, it's not unprecedented, but it is also still a historic moment and a huge base of the party, an important base of the party, is African-American women. So it's hard for me to imagine as much as I think there's amazing 2028 potential candidates,

a lot of them governors who will run it not being her. In terms of which avenue we go, it feels like it's difficult to figure out which data would point to which one. Because there's so much data available that would suggest that, you know, on one hand, Joe Biden is running 10 points behind in Pennsylvania. And then we see other polls, for example, that are coming out that show him actually leading in the aftermath of the debate. So when this decision or whatever it is is ultimately made, I guess the difficult part for me is to figure out which path it's going to be based on, just scattershot polling that depending on which way you want to look, you can always confirm your priors. Well, that's true to a degree, but the president's been behind in Wisconsin by about five points. That's a state they've said they have to win. Nevada, he's way behind in. It doesn't

mean this is insurmountable. It just means these are things that are actually data points that have been pretty consistent. So, you know, the challenge I think here, which is, which is so hard for the campaign in the White House because you're trying to meet a bar that you don't know what the bar is. No one's defining what the bar is. And his performance at the debate, which even he has said was bad and it was bad, it was not a one-off in the sense that it affirmed something people had concern about, which you saw this in polls, right, which is concerned about his age and whether he was up to the job. It's hard to unring that bell, you know, and that's a real challenge for the campaign in the White House, even when he can speak comprehensively about China and a range of issues

in a press conference as he did, you know, earlier this week. So, you know, I think there is well polling. And the other challenge of this moment, as you know, is that the country is so divided that it's never going to be like there's a 20-point gap between the presidential candidates. It's always going to be narrow in all likelihood. And so it will always be a narrow gap. It's more about if the people who are very politically sophisticated, and he is very politically sophisticated himself, kind of see that there is not a path to victory. Well, you know, there are going to be people who are watching or listening to this right now and saying just by virtue of us having this conversation, it's weakening our position because we should

be focusing on Donald Trump. And for those people, by the way, my next question is about Donald Trump. So we're going to pivot to that. But what are your thoughts on that whole, you know, aspect of this? Because that is what's worrying a lot of people, is that just being in a situation where we are airing these grievances out loud is just ultimately hurting someone who may very well, who's very likely to be the nominee in the end. Listen, I get that. I understand people's anger, people's frustration. I've had a lot of it directed at me. I've been called a traitor, treacherous, a liar, all the sorts of things. That's okay. I think that what is important to recognize right now is that this is about Trump. Joe Biden is not running against Mitt Romney, who you may have disagreements with and a different point if you want a range of issues on. He's not a person who would want to end democracy and you'd be concerned having the nuclear codes, right? And Trump poses a much far more existential threat. Nobody projected this conversation without a prompting event. And the prompting

event was the debate. Do I wish Joe Biden had done better? Absolutely. So does he. so does I'm sure anyone out there. And I love him. I think he's been an amazing president. He's an amazing human being. But not acknowledging that there are valid concerns from the public and from people who are running for office and for a lot of people fighting for important issues, I think is also a disservice. So, meanwhile, Donald Trump now is desperately running away from his own agenda, and that's Project 2025. Do you think his attempts to distance himself are going to work here?

I mean, you've been doing such a good job of this, but it is hilarious and insane that he is pretending he doesn't know anything about Project 2025. Also, I'm loving the Heritage Foundation president who's like, it's basically making Trumpism happen in a second term. I'm sure Trump is like ripping up a piece of paper or throwing a dart at that guy's face on a wall. You know, it's interesting because if you cycle analyze Trump, which is obviously always dangerous, but in this particular instance, it feels like he saw the branding of this project 2025 thing is not working well as in it's kind of becoming a problem yeah true fact check that's true right but at the same time for the most part and there are some exceptions but for the most part this nearly 900 page plan is his blueprint and aligned with his plan and overall I mean there's a lot in there it's almost 900 pages but overall this theory of governing which is about giving more power to the executive branch in a way that they overpower the other branches, which if that doesn't sound scary, it should because we're talking about somebody wanting that

power who wants to go after his political enemies, right, and use the military and other resources of the presidency to do that. So that's what it's a blueprint for. And it is very much, and as I think people know by now, but his former aides, who will probably be his future aides, have worked on this plan. Russ Vote, who's been on basically every short list for chief of staff is the person who wrote the executive branch section. His press secretary is in their videos. It's like on the banners of the Republican National Convention.

I mean, it is his plan. Yeah. Are you saying you're not buying into this talking point that he has no idea who's behind it, even though 200 members of his administration are behind it? Well, I think it was a good sign. And I love Taylor Swift. I consider myself a Swifty. but that there were more Google searches for Project 2025 than Taylor Swift, right, last week,

which I think tells you that I don't know that that's MAGA people. Like, I want more details on this. Maybe some of them. I think it's mostly people who are like, this seems scary. I need to learn more about it. Yeah. To that point then, what do you think is the most striking part of Project 2025? What do you see as the most chilling?

Well, again, I think you could go through section by section and have concerns and be alarmed. but I think it's the overarching view of governing. The overarching view of governing is empowering the president of the United States as a dictator and a king. And that's important because our constitution and the way our government is set up was never meant to make the president all powerful. There are checks and balances in our system, a judiciary that's supposed to hold everyone to account, right? Congress that has a separate branch of approvals for legislation and funding. funding. It's set up that way for a reason. And what this plan tries to do is to weaken and mute out the powers of anyone but the presidency. Yeah. Pivoting here. Congratulations on your New York

Times bestselling book. Oh, thank you. Sharp turn there. Yeah. Sharp turn here. Yeah. I guess I guess not too natural of a segue to go from Project 2025 to your book, but because I could have done that with a little bit more more massaging. It's good. It's great. Well, something that did strike me was that this is a book about communication broadly. And it inadvertently is coinciding with a moment in which the principal issue plaguing the president right now is an inability to communicate as effectively as he would like to. So he's, you know, clearly got the legislation chops. He's clearly got the foreign policy chops. That's all there. But the communication in and of itself is lacking. And meanwhile, while we've got Trump, who is completely incompetent when it comes to legislation and foreign

policy and all of those other buckets, but he can communicate with his audience effectively. So do you think that the calculus, as far as being a president, has completely changed in this political environment in terms of what Americans see as important for a leader? God, that's a good question. Let me start by saying this. Trump is an effective communicator in an evil and dark way, in part because he's entirely consistent. He doesn't speak in acronyms. He doesn't throw data in your face. And he speaks in emotional ways. Now, I think the way he speaks in emotional ways is dark, dangerous,

and fear-inducing, which is the purpose. But those are some ways that effective communication is done. You know who else can effectively communicate like that? But in a way that's for the light, Joe Biden. And what we saw at the debate, you know, it's interesting because before the debate, when I was on MSNBC, I said, I hope the thing he doesn't do is study data and feel like he needs to list numbers and data. And he does

that because I think he's got like a, I went to a state school too, but like a chip on his shoulder that like he, you know, he's going to talk to who is smart, right? He is smart. He's the president of the United States, right? He doesn't need to list out data. You couldn't bring notes in. He didn't have it in front

of him. He tried to list it out. He lost his train of thought. He had to correct himself. It wasn't the only issue with the debate, but I just use it as an example because that is not his superpower. His superpower is empathy. His superpower is speaking with passion about the issues he cares about. I mean, at the press conference, you saw this moment, which came out of almost nowhere, but about gun violence. And that did show how he cares deeply about that particular issue, right? Those are the superpower moments of Joe Biden, not data, not even.

I mean, he's a good, he's actually historically has been a good debater. He's a good kind of puncher of verbally, typically in those forums. But that's not his superpower. It's empathy, it's connecting. And it's speaking in English that people from Scranton, you know, and other towns like Scranton understand and relate to. Yeah. Can you tell a story of meeting Barack Obama?

I think that's my favorite. Oh, my God. So when I started working for Barack Obama, It was a couple of years after he gave his amazing convention speech. I tell the story in there about how your friend in mine, John Favro, and I were backstage at the convention at the time in 2004, litigating an argument between John Kerry's daughters about who would introduce him at the convention. So we actually missed the speech, but of course, we all saw it afterwards. And this was 2007 when I first met him. It was October.

And I had been sent by the campaign to go staff him, which means try. travel with him to events in Ohio. He was doing fundraiser and some other events. So I was waiting in his car because you wait in the car so that when the principal or the senator or the candidate gets out of the car, you're not delaying the process. And I thought, I'm so nervous I'm going to throw up because he was a larger than life figure then.

He still is now. I mean, sometimes I get nervous when I see him now, which is kind of ludicrous. I worked for him for 10 years. But he gets in the car and I said, I'm sure you're wondering who I am and why I'm here in your car and I was like, that was so slick. I felt really good about myself, you know?

And then I proceeded to get the strap of my bag caught on a handle of the car and for the entire contents of my bag, pens, tampons, like everything into his lap. He is quite cerebral, as they often say. So he didn't freak out. He didn't jump. He just sort of calmly picked everything up and looked at me, like, did that seriously just happen? I obviously recovered.

I worked for him for 10 more years, but it was quite a first meeting. Yeah, yeah. All right. So now finally we have MSNBC Live. It's happening Saturday, September 7th. What is it? And why was it important for TV people to be doing a live event? I think live events are so important and amazing because you have an opportunity to actually

engage with people, people who are watching the shows, people have questions, people who are engaged in the fight for democracy, just like you are, just like we all are on our shows or podcasts or YouTube shows or whatever it may be. And this was an opportunity at just, just months before a very pivotal election to do exactly that. So people can attend. We'll have sessions where we talk about a range of issues with everybody's favorite anchors. And I mean, of course, Rachel Maddo is going to be there, Joy Reed, Chris Hayes, Alex Wagner, everybody's favorites. And we'll talk about the issues of the day, the election democracy, Steve Kornacki, of course, he'll be there as well. But really, it was an opportunity to engage with the viewers.

And that's such an important part of what we all do. It's such a privilege to be able to host shows, as you know. And rarely do you get to do it like this in person. Well, very much looking forward to it. For those watching and listening right now, again, the book is Say More. Highly recommend grabbing a copy. Jen, thank you so much for digging the time. Thank you.

It was great talking to you. Thanks again to Jen. That's it for this episode. Talk to you next week. You've been listening to No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen. Produced by Sam Graber, music by Wellesie, and interviews edited for YouTube by Nicholas Nicotera. If you want to support the show,

please subscribe on your preferred podcast app and leave a five-star rating in a review. And as always, you can find me at Brian Tyler Cohen on all of my other channels, or you can go to Brian Tyler Cohen.com to learn more. Thank you.