On Purpose with Jay Shetty - 2 Misconceptions About Love & How to Turn Toxicity into Healthy Boundaries

Episode Date: November 25, 2022

Today, I'm joined by Haesue Jo, Licensed Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp, with years of experience providing individual and family therapy in community mental health. Her current clinical focus includes working with individuals with a variety of presenting problems, including anxiety, relationship and family issues, trauma, community violence, gender identity, and depression.This is the part two of a two-part series where I take the client seat and have a full therapy session with Haesue. In the first session, we talk about several sensitive topics including my childhood experiences, trauma, bullying, teenage struggle and so much more. Our focus for today’s session is relationships. We cover the unhealthy patterns that ruin relationships, what to do when you’re not getting the level of love and affection you are willing to give, learning how to read your partner’s emotional struggles and their efforts to make the relationships work, and how you can control your emotions by setting the right kind of boundaries.   This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.What We Discuss:00:00:00 Intro00:02:30 How do therapists monitor relationship building?00:06:07 What do relationships mean to you?00:11:02 If parents can articulate their thoughts well00:12:21 Not getting back the same love you're giving00:16:00 Why monks practice celibacy?00:19:24 We love and express love in a certain way00:26:56 Expecting your partner to just know00:30:38 How do you know your partner is making an effort?00:35:05 Overcompensating because of fear00:40:24 What makes a relationship worth fighting for?00:47:43 The 'WE' versus 'YOU' language00:52:00 Not all things in the world is one-sidedEpisode ResourcesBetterHelpDo you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on CalmWant to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets. The variety of them continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share ten incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets.

Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Getting better with money is a great goal for 2023, but how are you gonna make it happen? Ordering a book that lingers on your nightstand isn't gonna do the trick. Instead, check out our podcast, How to Money.

That's right, we're two best buds offering all the helpful personal finance information you need without putting you to sleep. We offer guidance three times a week and we talk about debt payoff, saving more, intelligent investing, and increasing your earnings. Millions of listeners have trusted us to help them make progress with their financial goals. You can listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our 20s often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Jermis Beg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect

of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences, the psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you don't put in the effort to try to recognize from where they're coming from and see it from their perspective, you may never know.

And you may continue living this life thinking that nobody really cares about me because you're not stepping outside of yourself. And so in relationship... Hey everyone, welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose. Thanks to our partners at BetterHelp for this episode. Today I'm joined with Hesu Jo, licensed therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Thank you so much for coming back to listen to today's episode.

I'm so grateful that you trust me. I'm so grateful that you value your time here with on purpose so much. And I want you to know that I deeply value each and every one of you that make time in your days and your weeks to connect here. And as you know, I'm always trying to come up with new ideas, creative ways of helping you learn about your journey towards happiness, towards healing, and towards health. And one of the ways I like to do that is I love experiments. I always have. And I like doing things myself and putting myself in uncomfortable positions. And so one of the series that we started off here was me going to therapy and doing a therapy session as an episode as a way to show you how accessible it is, how simple it is, how useful it can be, and also for you to get to know me better as well. I really want to be able to be more open with you. And

sometimes when I'm doing a four minute interview on TV or even if I do a podcast episode with someone else, the conversation can seem very specific to what I'm talking about, but not necessarily specific to me. So this is for all of you who would like to know a bit more about me, learn a bit more about me, and how I ended up the way I did, but also encouraging the conversation of how did you get to where you are today? What is it about your life that you can learn from or grow from and conserve you differently if you thought about it differently? So I wanna give a big thanks to our incredible partners

that better help for this episode. Our incredible therapist, Hesu, who's here with me today again. You've seen her in three episodes before this and this is our fourth episode in this series. So make sure you go back and listen to the other three if you haven't already. Hey, Sue, thank you so much for doing this again. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's always great to be with you, and I feel like after our first therapy session, I feel it's amazing how you build a relationship with someone so quickly because you're so vulnerable with someone. How do you use a therapist monitor that relationship building because almost like as a patient, I'm like, oh, I've got this person's

kind of like knows everything about me now, more than what some of my friends may know about me, not my closest friends, but some friends. And people start feeling close to their therapist because of vulnerability. How, what's the professional line and how do you maintain that?

Because I can imagine a lot of people start trusting you deeply. Yeah, I don't know if you already know, but this is like a focal point in the education of therapists and continuing education. This thing you're talking about, you know, your clients begin to feel close to your, your clients will also love you. Some of your clients will fall in love with you. Sometimes you're the first person or one of the only people that gives them the experience of being seen without criticism and judgment, which is like very rare in today's modern

world when we're trying to connect with people. So managing this relationship that becomes very intimate is really important to protect you, to protect the client. So people will hear of things like the code of ethics. And these exist to protect the public, right? It's like therapists gain a lot of power in this relationship. I know so much about you, but you don't really know anything about me. And I could use that with my clients to a huge advantage.

So that is very dangerous, I think. And so these codes of ethics ensure that we are protecting our clients, we're managing our feelings about our clients, the feelings that our clients develop about us. It has a word. It's called transference and the feelings that I develop for you that's counter transference and these are things that we have to process and things that therapists are encouraged to go to therapy for consult with other people throughout their practice in order to keep things healthy in order to keep things in line with the goal

Which is to help you meet your ambitions and your goals. It's not about Anything to do with what my emotional intentions or my ego is. But it is something that we are meant to be mindful to manage because there are times where when you're not managing it, it turns into a very messy situation. And you're like, folks have heard of these things. You know, people can lose their license because they've taken advantage of a client and entered a very personal relationship, which is a huge no-no. So for me, it's like just knowing and understanding your clients will develop very strong feelings

about and towards you and continuing to be the safe person that's responsible for establishing healthy boundaries and making it very clear like what is this relationship? That makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much. I love that. Alright, well, let's drive in. Over to you again, I will hand over my host hat to you to get into the zone. So that's what I kind of am interested in talking about today with you is relationships.

So I don't know what you're willing to share about that, but can you tell me about what being in relationship means to you and like what is important about humans doing that? I think having a relationship with anyone is very sacred if you're both making time, sharing energy, whether it's my wife, whether it's one of my best friends, whether it's a team member,

I think about relationships as an exchange of energy. And I want that energy that is created in exchange to be positive and healthy for both people. I also think about it as a safe space. And hence I call it sacred, it's a safe space that where you feel trusted, where you feel someone wants to try to understand, and where you feel that your openness will not be used against you, or will not be taken advantage of. And beyond all of that, there's a sense of knowing. And when I say knowing, I don't mean someone's a mind reader, and they know what you're thinking about. It's that as you start to talk to that person, you know they know what you mean.

And because they've had so many experiences with you. That's how I see relationships today. But I think when I was growing up, I think I was so in love with the idea of love that I just wanted to be in love. And I think a lot of that came from just watching too many bad movies. I think a lot of my initial ideas on love were based on terrible movies that you see as a kid, whether it's American Pie, Road Trip, tons of Bollywood movies too,

that Bollywood movies almost portrayed this really glamorous view of love. And I think Hollywood movies at the time portrayed a very lusty view of love. And you kind of get caught somewhere in between of infatuation, attraction, and then this glamorized version of love is where I think I ended up. And so to me, I was always wanting to be in love without knowing what it was, without knowing what it required from the other person. I just wanted to give love and be loving and have love. And I think that led to a lot of issues growing up when I first started dating because when I first started dating I was around 14 years old.

And I was kind of like that person who just went above and beyond all the time with anyone, whether I just met them or whether I'd known them for a while. And that was quite new for, I guess, the girls that I was doing is what we were all fairly young. And so whether we were in our first relationships or a second, to have someone who was that overly giving was quite, people appreciated it, people liked it. But I realized that I was doing it, and I realized this afterwards, I was doing it because I just wanted them to like me.

It's not that I actually, beyond being attracted to them or beyond being infatuated with them or whatever it may have been, I don't think I actually knew anything about them. But I liked the idea of someone that I felt attracted to liking me and validating me and thinking I was a good person and thinking that I was special and thinking that I was important. When your mind is developing, this means your world view is developing which will later turn into your personal philosophy. So many things can impact it.

So like, I'm not saying that this is how people should live their lives, but personally, I have witnessed so much and observed how detrimental it is to engage in many things as a developing young mind, whether that substance, cannabis, alcohol, sex, like these kinds of things which are highly emotionally charged. When you don't even understand what's happening to you when your state of mind is being altered, it's very difficult to reconcile that as an adult.

It like totally impacts you. And you see it now, like there's so much research that shows kids that do these things. I'm not saying it's caused, but you know, there's a lot more prevalence of mental health issues for kids that engage in these things versus kids that don't. So what we're hearing is that it's guaranteed

that if you're in relationships and new teens you're going to go through a ton of pain either way. We're going to make mistakes. Like it's likely that we're going to make mistakes and some of those mistakes become really damaging and traumatic long-term. Stay with you forever. I remember that so my parents never wanted me to have a relationship until I was ideally they would never have wanted me to have a relationship until I was married. And so I have wanted me to have a relationship until I was married. And so I never told my parents when I was dating. And my parents would have no,

if my parents listened to the episode, they have no idea that I've had a girlfriend. They probably have some idea now, but like they would never have known that I was dating at 14. Yeah. And it became so much more attractive to me to one a day because my parents don't want me to day.

And then obviously in culture, you don't want to be a loser again if you don't day. And so yeah, it's just, it's hard because I agree with you. I think you wouldn't make as much mistakes. You wouldn't learn as much. It's complicated. Anyway, we'll be able to be happy. It is complicated.

Parents, parents, sometimes they're not conscious of why they're even setting that rule. Totally. But if they could articulate it, and if a 14-year-old could understand it, Sometimes they're not conscious of why they're even setting that rule. If they could articulate it and if a 14-year-old could understand it, it's like we're saying this out of the wisdom of knowing that you are still absorbing the world and we want you to absorb it in a way that's inviting, welcoming, loving, something that you can feel is safe. But they don't always know how to say that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, now of how you view relationships? Well, lots of failed relationships, lots of heartbreak. What used to happen was I would over love someone again, I'm not sure it was love, but I would over give. And when someone

couldn't keep up with my rate of giving, I would walk away. You're looking for that. I was looking for that. I was looking for that. Yeah, exactly. I was like, well, I'm loving you. And it's so, it was almost like I was setting the standard of how much love I was going to give. And then if they didn't match my standard, which I had made up anyway, they never even asked for it, then I would be upset. And that was extremely unhealthy now I see that

because you end up feeling like the victim and you end up feeling like they wronged you. When in fact you set a false standard and hurt that person because that person was feeling overly loved by you and then the next thing you know you walked away and it's all over and They're wondering what went wrong there too. And so I think there was a lot of failed relationships where, and again, I'm not saying that everyone I did was perfect and that I messed up in that way. There's obviously, there's a lot of mutual responsibility. But I think what happened in between

was I became a monk. That's the through line of so much of my life where it's like for three years, I didn't date, I didn't, I was it's like for three years, I didn't date, I didn't, I was celibate for three years, you don't, you don't really interact with women when you're a monk. And I think a part of the reason why I did that was because I've obviously simplified some of my experience of how I was, but I also got to a place where I couldn't keep a healthy relationship.

Like I didn't, you know, a long-term relationship. There was something that would go wrong. And I was just sick of relationships. I was like, this isn't... I just don't want to put in this work for what reason. Like why am I putting in all this work to try and make this thing work with very little benefit? And I'd rather go and work on myself and help the world or whatever I've been at the time, to try and make this thing work with very little benefit.

And I'd rather go and work on myself and help the world or whatever it may have been at the time, so which we've talked about previously. And so I think there was a part of me that was just feeling like I don't know how to get a relationship right. Yeah, I think what happened in between was spending three years on my own allowed me to reclarify and re-identify what love was to me, not what love was to my family or in the movies

or to some of the people I'd met, but what was love to me? What kind of relationship did I want? And obviously, like living as a monk, even though you're not dating, you develop a lot of good living is a monk, even though you're not dating, you develop a lot of good skills for dating, like patience and commitment and discipline and understanding and listening and mindfulness. And so there's so many great skills that you gain that then become very useful when you start dating. And so then since I left the monastery, the only person I've ever dated is my wife. And, you know, we're all constantly working on things even today, but I definitely feel a lot more stability with her than I've felt before.

And a lot more commitment and love there than I've felt before. And obviously that's a lot to do with her as well. That's not just me, but yeah, I think that's what changed it. Becoming a monk. Yeah. And you mentioned, you. Becoming a monk. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, as a monk in the three years, you were a monk.

And many people stay monks until they leave this earth, right? And I'm understanding that you're saying monks don't date. Monks are celibate. Yeah. Um, so can you refresh my memory? Why that is? And it's not just in one kind of monk, right? You see this across cultural different monkness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why is that? Can you remind me? I mean, there's many different reasons. And I can't speak for anyone beyond my tradition, obviously. But I would say that the number one reason is to create a sense of focus and aligned energy. So if we all believe that we have a certain amount of energy and the more things we add to that, the more it takes away our energy in different directions.

Now being celibate or getting into a relationship is one of those, but it's the same as having a career as a monk, you don't have a job. Right? And so it's the same reasoning where it's like, well, what if all of your energy was placed in self-mastery and self-realization and you didn't use your energy for anything else? Or anyone else. Or anyone else. Would you not have the opportunity to go deep into the self?

And so it's not about women or celibacy, or like it's not about the external idea of like, some people are like, oh, well, money's bad and women are bad and that's where you stay in. It's like, well, no, it's got nothing to do with that. It's not like you don't have a job because money's bad or you don't have a partner because a certain gender is bad.

It's the idea that how could you limit all your distractions, or how could you limit all your focus as an energy to the pursuit of self-realization? And anything above the pursuit of self-realization is seen as unimportant at that stage of life. And I think there's beauty in that. I think when I think about getting three years in my life to have an exclusive focus on self-realization,

I would say it works. And I think about this often, I'm like, when did people ever in their lives have three days for self-realization, let alone three weeks, three months or three years? And so I think it worked. I think it was true. I do believe that carving out exclusive time

for yourself and self-realization is a beautiful commitment to yourself and you don't have to go and become a monk to do it. I think therapy is one way to do it and is a great way to do that every week. You're carving out an hour or two hours for yourself and understanding yourself. And so over years, that will add up. And so I think that the idea or the concept, you don't have to become a monk to do it, but the idea and the concept of investing your energy exclusively in self-realization is a healthy one. Thank you.

Thank you for taking that detour because sometimes clients may have this idea that therapists know everything about all kinds of people. So sometimes I may ask you to remind me why something is the way it was in some piece of your life because it helps me understand you better as I seek to understand you better as I accompany you through whatever it is that you're trying to explore about yourself. So I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand that. Yeah, of course. And in all of that, I'm hearing like,

becoming a monk, which we talked about previously, a large part of it was maybe you couldn't articulate it before you became one, but after this journey, it was about being able to validate yourself. Yes. And it sounds like all your early relationships, you're really seeking this validation from someone else.

Yeah. Yeah. It was validation for, because I guess I didn't like myself, it was the idea of how do you buy someone's love. Like, is it a fancy gift? Is it a posh restaurant? Is it a, is it me overdoing it for their birthday when we barely know each other? Like, what am I overcompensating for?

And I'm overcompensating for the fact that I'm not sure I think I'm worthy or I'm not sure that I like myself enough and I'm hoping that this will win that person over and then we'll have that romantic love in the movies. And that was the only way to get through to them was to do these grand gestures. I've always been someone who considers themselves to be someone. And I still, to this day, love grand gestures, and I've married someone who doesn't appreciate grand gestures. And it took me ages to understand that.

And I think my wife, because I do love her deeper than that, was one of the few people who's been able to teach me that. That Grandchester's don't equal love or not the only way to show love, because she didn't receive them with the glorification and adulation of, oh, you're amazing. She kind of received them as like,

well, I didn't really want this. Or this doesn't really make me happy. And in my head, when we first started dating, it was like, well, you're weird. You know, it's like, how can you not be happy? Look how incredible I am only to realize that again, it was still so even after being among, even in our early years of dating with me and my wife, I still think I was, and I even told this day, I think that is so deep rooted, that idea of love is grand gestures, love is this big thing, the idea of over giving, like I think it's so deep rooted, it takes a long time to be aware, let go, be conscious, you know, it doesn't just disappear. Right, right. And you know, sometimes for some people, love is grand gesture. So, right. And you're kind of touching on something that a lot of people would benefit from reminding themselves of.

We or I as an individual love and express love in a certain way. And I feel love and I receive love in a certain way. It's pretty unlikely that you will end up with someone that speaks love and receives love in the exact way that you do. So it's like being in this long-term relationship. It sounds like you and your wife have navigated. How can I express my love to her in a way that she will receive it? Because a lot of people are like, well, this is how I would like for someone to love me. So if I keep doing that to her, she's going to like it because I would like it. I think we're learning that that is not love. Love is learning to express it in the way that your partner receives it.

Hey, it's Debbie Brown. And my podcast, Deeply Well, is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your journey. From guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care, trauma, psychology, spirituality, astrology, and even intimacy. Here is where you'll pick up the tools to live as your highest self. Make better choices, heal and have more joy. My work is rooted in advanced meditation, metaphysics, spiritual psychology, energy healing,

and trauma-informed practices. I believe that the more we heal and grow within ourselves, the more we are able to bring our creativity to life. And live our purpose, which leads to community impact and higher consciousness for all beings. Deeply well with Debbie Brown is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be.

Deeply well is available now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love, namaste. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season. And yet, we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them continues to be astonishing.

I can't wait to share 10 incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. When I realized this is not just happening to me, this is who and what I am. I needed her to help me. Something was gnawing at me that I couldn't put my finger on, that I just felt somehow that there was a piece missing. Why not restart?

Look at all the things that were going wrong. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there.

There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy. Bois min is seen as a very snotty city. People call it Bois Angeles. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Friends' newton, and not lost is my new travel podcast,

where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party. It doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Chihuahua who is aggressive towards strangers. I love the dogs. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling, but I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too.

And also, we get to eat as much... It's very sincere. I love you too. It makes a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white, I love it. Listen to Not Lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. And I also realized that for me, the way I like to receive love and give love is how my mom gave me love. And so my mom would, and we've talked about my mom before, my mom would

always save up to buy me the one big gift I wanted every year for my birthday. And we didn't have a lot growing up so she would save up and she knew what I wanted and she always knew what I wanted. I didn't even have to tell her, she just knew. And then on my birthday, I'd unwrap this gift and it would be exactly the thing that I wanted. And so that had been how I'd been loved. My mom did give me time and we did have beautiful experiences. but I remember gifts being a big thing in my home. And then when I married my wife, it's like gifts are like not important in her home. Like they spend quality time with each other

and they, her dad would take the day off on her birthday and they'd go out or whatever it may be. And so to me, I couldn't get my head around how gifts couldn't be important to someone because I was just like gifts to the best thing in the world like and And it took me a long time to also realize and even till this day like one of the members of my team bought me a gift for my birth from my birth. It was a couple of months ago and she found something that I didn't need I didn't want but it was it was like a felt of understanding I was like and it was a it was a a felt of understanding. I was like, and it was a new pair of shoes

that were really cool and they were this cool collab and they were a bit rare. And I was like, this person understands me so well. And it's a long time since I've received a gift that felt that way. And it wasn't because of how much it cost, it wasn't about, it wasn't any of the, it wasn't grand because it was big or expensive, it was grand because it was so thought through. Like, it wasn't any of the, it wasn't grand because, it was big or expensive,

it was grand because it was so thought through, like it was the right pair of shoes. And I was like that, it was beautiful. And then a few years ago, I had a person in my life, sent me a life magazine, like the old ones that I don't think are in print anymore. And it was signed by the Dalai Lama.

Oh. And they sent that to me as a gift. And I was like, this is the best gift ever. Like this person understands me. And so I started to realize that even my love for gifts wasn't because I wanted something. It was because a gift made me feel understood. Right?

It was that's what I was looking for was a sense of you know me. The sense you got when your mom gave you that gift that she knew what you wanted and needed, you didn't even have to say it. She just like could see into you. Yeah, only realizing that that's very hard to do. And putting that pressure on my wife was not smart because it takes a while for people to get to know you

and you know, it takes a while for people to know what kind of gifts you want. And also, she was learning at the same time. She was learning that I needed gifts because in her eyes, spending good time with each other was the gift. And in my head, I was like, no, like the gift's the gift and time together's not the gift. And so it's really interesting when two people are learning something at the same time. And it's hard because when you're both learning the same thing at the same time, you're just like, you know, knocking against each other.

Yeah, finding that person, finding your person, whether that's like your person of the season or your person for the rest of your life, you're bringing together two most likely very different families of origin. And it's like your world view is shaped by the people that raise you. And so you're touching on all these things, you know, this is the way that I received love from my mom. So this is the way that as a small child becomes deeply ingrained in me how people are supposed to receive it too. And it sounds like she had a different experience and like you said navigating and learning these things at the same time. Much more difficult than when you have like an apprentice and somebody mentoring them,

somebody knows something. But oftentimes in relationships, you're realizing together like, I don't actually know anything and neither do you. Yeah. But we're trying to figure that out while we're getting to know each other. Yeah. All with this like deep desire and need to be seen. That's so much of being loved. Yeah. Yeah. And I found that I would often over love my wife and then make her feel guilty for not

loving me the same. Hmm. Keeping tabs. Keeping tabs. Keeping tabs, yeah. Can you give me an example of over loving? I would do something spontaneous, like plan a weekend, activity or whatever it may be. But then if she doesn't plan something the next weekend,

I'm mad at her. And it's like, that's, you know, now it sounds stupid saying it. But it's like, at that time, it felt really real. But it's like, well, why are you not doing it back? But I haven't said I want that. I haven't expressed that I need that. She was just supposed to know. She was just supposed to know,

and she was just supposed to get it. And if I've thought about it, how come she can't think about the next thing? And it was like, and you just feel you're so right. Like, I think that's what's so hard. Talking about it now, I'm like, I can see why it's wrong, but when you're in that position, you feel like it's so right. Well, you're like, but I'm doing all of this for us

and what do you do? And I think I've always felt that way. Like, that's always been like a very deep rooted feeling of like, I do, I work so hard for this relationship, but I don't think you do. And I saw this really incredible image on social media today. And it was inspiring a story in me. I was like, this, you know, this can be a story, but it's like, imagine, imagine you're on a, like a vacation and you're on a really high mountain

top. And unfortunately, your partner slips and falls and you go to grab them and you thankfully you catch hold of them so they don't fall off. And what ends up happening after that is one of the rocks from behind you falls on your leg while you're holding onto their hand and a snake is going up their leg. So this is the image that was on social media. It was asking for the reflection of the person being held is thinking why doesn't my partner just lift me up? Not realizing that that partner has a rock on their leg and the partner with the rock on their leg is thinking well, why doesn't this person just lift their own weight a little bit? We could help me not realizing that there's a snake at their leg and they're scared of moving.

And the piece of art and whoever it poster was trying to get that question of like, that's kind of what relationships are like sometimes. How do you know whether your partner is actually putting an effort into a relationship and putting in work, if you're someone that constantly feels like you are putting in the work if you're someone that constantly feels like you are putting in the work, but you don't think they are,

how do you know whether you're right or whether you're not right? How do you know anything? But when you were describing like having planned this great weekend and then expecting for someone else to return that gesture and do the same thing. And then having the experience of feeling like,

I put in so much work and you haven't that mindset and that person is not tuning in to pay attention to how that other person is showing up and is doing that work. So it's like to answer the question, how do you know if you don't put in the effort to try to recognize from like where they're coming from and see it from their perspective, you may never know. And you may continue living this life thinking that like nobody really cares about me because

you're not stepping outside of yourself. And so in relationship, not just with like a romantic partner, but even your friends, your family colleagues, teammates like You're depriving yourself of the next level of connection by only thinking of it the way from your stance Your perspective. So flip that question back to you. It's like how did you know? How did you come to realize that she also loves you very deeply when she wasn't getting you these big gifts? Yeah, no, I mean, it's exactly that. You, you heard the nail on the head. It was, it was me starting to look at how she contributed to the relationship.

And I started to realize there was so many ways she contributed to a healthy relationship. It was, she's the only person I've ever been with who is extremely secure in herself and trusts me and doesn't make me feel like she's never made me feel like she doesn't trust me. That's a massive gift in a relationship, like the idea that my partner trusts me. I think that's a beautiful thing. When things were tough, when we were struggling and when we were going through financial difficulties and everything like that, she was fully there with me and it's like, I trust

you, I'm there with you, like whatever help help you need. You know, those were huge gifts in the relationship. I think even when I first met her, I, you know, I'd left the monastery like a year before that or less than a year before that. And I didn't have a plan or I didn't have like my life figured out. And I didn't even have a job when we first I dating and she was okay with that. And I was like, you know, there's so many huge gifts here that I missed out on because I was looking at it from this singular perspective of why doesn't she do this. And that is exactly what I had to do. And even till this day, I feel sometimes I have to do that because those deep rooted ideas are so strong.

Where I'm like, well, what does my wife contribute to this relationship? And you find there's so many things, but you can very much live in a self-centred world of I'm the only one who contributes to this relationship. And I think we're scared of noticing how other people contribute because we're so attached to them contributing how we contribute. And we're scared that it almost makes us weak.

Like, I guess we don't wanna be in a situation where they're doing more than we are because we see that's what relationships are about. It's about doing equal for each other. Whereas I've realized that I don't think of a relationship with my wife have today is that we do equal for each other. We just do different things for each other, whereas I've realized that I don't think the relationship with my wife has today is that we do equal for each other. We just do different things for each other. For folks that are out there still thinking that relationships about equal work, to be

able to calculate that it's equal, still means you're keeping tabs. You're still like trying to keep some kind of score. And that is where a lot of resentment grows and a lot of pain and a lot of like expectation. There's this idea that people talk about in therapy too of like the way that we react to our own feelings or we react to other people. It comes from one of two places and it's like either we're reacting because we're fearful of something. So we're trying to avoid or prevent something or we're reacting out of love. Love for ourselves, love for the person, love for the situation in itself, which means acceptance

of what it is. And you know, that's like a truly loving relationship, right? Is that you're not behaving from fear of rejection, fear of, oh, she doesn't love me as much as I love her. Like that kind of stuff isn't there. It sounds like you just like had this knowing that she's there for you. I'm there for her, the trust. Yeah. And I think that what you just said, I think there's such a fine line between that I do things out of fear and I do things out of love because a lot of the times things that we think look like love are actually just fear in disguise. So you're like, I can, I can, you know, sometimes like, you want to plan a big birthday, not because you love the person, but because you're scared that they'll be sad. Like, that's not love. Like,

is it, or is it? Is that like, you know, it's, it's almost like, are you basing your intention on, you want them to be happy or you don't want them to be mad? And sometimes we, sometimes we create that in other people too, where I've had past relationships where I did things because I was scared of them. I was scared of what would happen if they got angry. And therefore you keep doing the thing. You mentioned like over loving, over compensating. So maybe in one of these past relationships or some like, what can you recall about something that you were overcompensating for from fear. I guess a lot of it is just staying in a situation that doesn't like I remember I had one relationship where I'd turn up on time I'd made a plan I'd come up with a great

evening and the person would not appreciate the plan. They would disrupt the plan. They would want to go home early. We drive home and they wouldn't talk to me, home the whole way. And then you do that week after week after week because you just didn't want to let them down. And so you're not doing that because you love them. You're doing it because you're scared that you're going to lose them.

But then it's like, why would you be scared of losing someone like that? But you get wrapped up in that belief that You upset them some way like you did something wrong and I mean at least with that one I realized that I wasn't doing anything wrong But it's really interesting how you work differently when you have high confidence in a relation universe There's low confidence and I think in the beginning stages when I've had low confidence in relationships because you want the other person to like you You'll keep tolerating bad behavior Because you want to be like so bad and you're only acting in a nice way because you're scared of losing them Because you think that them being with you is the only reason that you're liked does that make sense as an example?

Yeah, and you know you if if you're entering or trying to maintain a relationship and you have low self-esteem, you don't have very high confidence in yourself. A lot of people have described just, well, anybody ever want to be with me. So it's like, this might be the last person that I have a chance for. So I can't ruin it because I don't want to be alone. Like so many people don't want to be alone. We fear that. There's a metaphor I think of is just ruin it. Cause I don't wanna be alone. Like so many people don't wanna be alone. We fear that. There's a metaphor I think of as just like,

you know, we have these glasses here. And when you enter a relationship, you're coming in with a glass. And if you're coming in with an empty one, you kind of have this like very parched expectation for the other person to fill it for you. And to constantly expect someone else to fill it for you means they are depleting their own.

But you know, when you both come with a full glass and there is no expectation to fill that for each other, and I can love out of the abundance of having it for yourself. And now this like need or expectation to fill it isn't there. It's just now we're like two full people, two whole people that can live life together, navigate life together, grow together if that's something that's important to you, be content together if that's what's important to you. The early relationship really sounds like you were coming into it with glass empty. I also think that age, I just loved the chase too.

I think there was something about that proving to someone that you were worthy. I think there was something about that. Was it interesting? Was it the chase? Like something about that pursuit that's interesting? Or do you think you got like reinforced when you finally got this thing that you were chasing? Well, I think it comes back to the, it's come back to kind of like gift mentality too.

It's like when you see someone as a thing to get right like it's the idea of, and that's what gift mindset is worrying sometimes because you, you're constantly working. And I've, I've definitely like, when I unpack that, I really, I really, I really realized that I love the element of surprise. I love surprises. I genuinely love surprises till this day. And I realized that anyone could have the opportunity to surprise me in a loving, conscientious way. So I feel like the idea of like saving up for the thing you want. And then when you get it, you're like, ah, it wasn't that great anyway. And I think we all feel that way with things. Things never live up to their height. The joy and the pleasure of a thing

is very short lived. We know that, but sometimes I think we're programmed to believe that relationships and people are like that as well where it's like, well, once you get that person, then you'll be happy and you almost treat it like a achievement. And I think that in my teens that was definitely there, and I needed some people who were pro-rejectors, were professional at rejecting me to help me learn

that that didn't always work. Like that wasn't a good path to take. We're seeing like the neurotransmitter dopamine. Dopamine is something that's released when something good happens. Like when we were our reward receptors in our brain, like getting the thing that we were pursuing and we do feel good, but it's momentary. And it's like, it's our bodies like training us

to continue pursuing good stuff because we wanna feel good. But then in a long lasting partnership and relationship, a lot of times it doesn't feel good. So can you tell me a little bit about like Relationships when it doesn't feel good. How do you know that you're supposed to keep going like what makes it worth Fighting for that's even a strange term for it. Yeah, that's no I've thought about that a lot actually because I'd say that my marriage right now is the only of relationships

I've ever worked beyond that point. And I realized that there were so many relationships earlier on my life that I just tapped out of because I was like, I don't wanna do this anymore. Like why are we wasting our time? Why are we doing this? I think there's a couple of things. I think one is that the other person also wants to work

on it in a real way. So you wanna work on it and the person also wants to work on it in a real way. So you want to work on it and the other person wants to work on it. I think what I found in previous relationships is I didn't want to work on it and someone says they want to work on it but they don't really want to work on it and themselves. And I think that's the question. It's like, am I willing to work on myself for this person? It's not, am I willing to work on this relationship? It's am I willing to work on myself for this person. It's not am I willing to work on this relationship. It's am I willing to work on myself for this person and is that person willing to work on themselves

for me? And I think that's where I feel with my wife right now. I'm like at this point in our relationship, I know she wants to work on herself for me. She'll say that and I know I want to work on myself for her. So that's one thing that I definitely have looked for and I've seen that difference in past relationships and this relationship. In past And I know I want to work with myself for her. So that's one thing that I definitely have looked for and I've seen that difference in past relationships and this relationship. In past relationships where I didn't work out or where you didn't push through,

it's because ultimately I felt no matter what I did, this person would never be convinced I loved them. So I dated a lot of people that I felt that even if I did what they wanted me to do and even if I tried my best to love them in the way they want to be loved, they still were unconvinced that I loved them as well, because to them, they were still going through

that process of filling their cup. So no matter how much I fill their cup, they always felt thirsty or they felt parched. And I was just like, okay, so this doesn't make any sense. Because no matter what I do, this person will never be convinced. So I can't keep working on this. Whereas with my current relationship today, I'm like, Rade doesn't demand a lot and she's quite full already.

And I think I'm the same back with her. And so it's kind of like a sense of like, oh, well, everything's a bonus, like everything's exciting, everything's fresh. All when things are tough, let's get back to figuring out what is it that currently is making things tough, but there's an underlying feeling of, you love me enough and I love you enough, if that makes sense. There's an underlying feeling of, you love me enough and I love you enough, if that makes sense. There's not a sense of feeling that emptiness.

And I think there's just an open space to talk about it without judgment and getting ugly. I have like difficult conversations with my wife and I'll say to her, like, I have a rule that since we've my wife and I'll say to her like, I have a rule that since we've been together, I always say to her like, if the relationship is not going in a direction, we both want it to. I want you to tell me and I'll tell you. And so I've sat down with her and I've been like, I don't like where this relationship

is going right now. Like this isn't the relationship I want. Is it the relationship you want? If it isn't, what are you willing to get it to where you want it to be? And if it isn't, what am I willing to get it to where we want it to be? And what do we want it to be? And so I think we have that conversation regularly, like, you know, at least once or twice a year, because you're naturally going to go off track. Like that's, you can never just be on track. And I think in other relationships, not only did we assume we'd always be on track,

I think when we went off track, we were very unhealthy in how we talked about it. And at least with my wife, I think there's a sense of humility from both sides in saying, we've got this wrong. Let's try again. Let's shift this. And so I think a sense of lack of ego makes it easier to work on it continuously. Whereas if you both just have an ego all the time that you're doing everything right and the other person's wrong, then that discourages a relationship. And this is where this like cliche thing of like, oh, well, my therapist said that I need to use eye statements.

So if folks have heard of this, it's like, this comes from coming into maybe like a emotionally charged topic with someone you really care about and not starting with the, you did this, you make me do this, you make me feel this, like you are whatever. That's like very like blame centric language. And you mentioned humility. It's like coming into the conversation, like humbled by, I'm not going to put actions and intentions in your mouth. I'm just going to show up with how I feel about it. And that's what I statements are. I feel so and so when you do this, I would like when so and so. I am expressing what my needs are.

And this is what I think you can do to help me meet those two. And that's where that thing comes from, right, the I statements. It's very important to show up as you, not you are the one that's going to make this all better. Yeah, yeah. I've always had my own little version of that.

I've always said, instead of you and me, use us and we. And so when I'm thinking about constructively moving away from the conflict or moving, moving forward with it, I'll always say, what are we willing to do for this relationship? And what is something that's important to both of us? And that way, now we're a team, we're working on it together, we're solving this rather than like, well, you make me feel like this. And you do this wrong or you and it's almost like saying, well, there's no responsibility on my end. Whereas I often go, we're pretty much both struggling with this. How are you struggling with it, right?

And then giving the opportunity, but then going, we're both struggling with this. It's not like a you and me. And so I think shirking responsibility has always been hard to build with someone who you feel is just always making it your fault or you're making it their fault. I don't think you can get past that after a couple of years because it's hard, you know. And I think with my wife too, I think if we ever fall into those patterns, we're constantly trying to say, okay, okay, wait, we can see ourselves moving into that pattern and then try and come back. Or the other side is, you just get numb from everything, right?

Like that, I think, is also unhealthy where you don't feel anything about anything. You're just indifferent. And that's not a loving relationship either. So I think some people may not experience extreme conflict, but I think some people extreme experience indifference where you don't feel any different, whatever happens with your partner. Man, you're right. In difference apathy and a relationship, I think is sometimes even more like slippery, sloped, dangerous than having hateful feelings towards your partner because that means you still have something in a passion there. I really like what you're saying about using this wee language versus you versus me because

this is something that people can expect in couples therapy also. And you come in and you start learning how to reframe you versus me, I versus you, it's wee versus the problem. Right. And so I really like that. And I tend to use that kind of language with my clients. Like, when I'm trying to express something to help my client feel like they're not alone

in the struggle, I'm going to do a lot of things to try to normalize. This is like this experience of helping the client feel like they're not the only person in the world to experience this. So I don't always say like, yeah, people experience anxiety that way. I say we experience anxiety in that way, we tend to and then list off whatever symptoms people have. So I like this idea of bringing some attention to the collective experience of us. And you know, it's like really easy to want to just go that I me route, especially

in Western cultures, this is a way that we're raised, this is a way that we're socialized to like be an independent, unique, and individual, which those things are great. But especially in relationship, there isn't us. There is a we. We're doing this together. We're choosing each other every day, which is not easy. Yeah. And I think I realized that exactly what you're saying, during actually the week of my wedding,

and I know a lot of friends, family, team members that are preparing for a wedding right now. And I don't think everyone talks about enough openly how stressful weddings are. Right, weddings are meant to be the best day of your life, they're meant to be all these exciting things and they are, but they also have a lot of stress leading up to them, the weak off. I remember, you know, everyone has so many opinions and family wants you to do it this

way and the other family wants you to do it this way. And both people are holding together their families, opinions and values and rituals and traditions as well as their own. And it can be a really, I feel like marriage is nearly break people up because they're so intense and stressful. And I remember saying that exact thing to Roddy my the week we got married, where I was just like, this is how it's always gonna be.

There's always going to be so many people who have opinions about how we should do this and how we should have done that. And more importantly, people are gonna tell you how I should be different and people are gonna tell you how I should be different and people are gonna tell me how you should be different. And I was like, the only two people that need to agree on me and you.

And then we need to make sense of everything else that's going on. Because, and if we don't set that habit now, we're gonna constantly be lost and struggling. And I think that was the week where we were able to admit that there were people in our lives that wanted what was best for us according to them, but not

best for us. And we were the only ones who could decide what is best for us by knowing ourselves and knowing each other. And yeah, I just think all of these experiences in life are helping you get there, but you have to use them as a way of not looking at it as me versus you. As you said, you have to look at it as like, well, what can we learn from this? What can we grow from this? What are we going to solve with this? And I think that's constantly been my approach, at least in my post-Monk life of whenever there's an issue, it isn't their

problem or my problem. And I think that's the issue, right? You literally have to obliterate that thought after time. Or it's like, this isn't a you issue or a me issue. This is something we are dealing with. And how do we figure it out? And I think if you say that and the other person doesn't want to figure it out or doesn't see it. That's where you start going, well, I don't know where this is going because I think there has to be a collective responsibility. It's just like a huge metaphor here, right? It's not just about our spouse or our romantic partner. It's like so much of what you're reflecting on would be so helpful for society as a whole, right? If we all could adopt some more of this us versus the problem mentality,

I think that would be really, really helpful for a lot of people. And it seems like this is like a value and a notion that I think that you try to have an impact on. Yeah, I think it's easier to choose a side. It's easy to choose a side. It's easy to pick a side and stick with it and pick a story and stick with it. It's harder to hold to seemingly opposite ideas and figure out how they connect and how

they correlate. But I think that all of us would agree that if you look at any relationship in your life, you know you had something to do with it. And the other person that's something to do with it, I don't think there's ever been anything in the world that is completely one-sided until it gets, you know, I mean, I'll check that back. I think there may be certain things that are completely one-sided and you have to be aware of those and be careful of those in your own relationships. But I can definitely say in my life at least that most things have been two sided and you can see two hands in all of it. Yeah, and you know, the I versus you mentality, it's like sometimes it feels like it's

emotionally easier to take that path because I'm putting guards up and protecting myself from whatever the us, we mentality, like you said, it means that you have to own up to take accountability for your part in this, which can be very uncomfortable for people. It's very painful sometimes to confront this idea that you're not always making the best choices that you have done things that are hurtful to people.

A lot of us just like don't want to admit that. We think it puts you in a position of weakness and yes, with a unhealthy partner it does. Right? And I think that's part of how you know where it's like if you disclose, vulnerably, hey, I think I messed this up. Let's talk about it and they're like, yeah, look, you know, you already know you messed it up. Like you got it wrong. Like that, if someone uses that in that way, then yeah, that is, that can be a honey healthy relationship. Whereas if someone goes, I'm glad you noticed that, but I know I'm responsible for this too.

There's something that can be built there, and I think you need someone, not everyone can do that in the moment, not everyone's gonna do that when you're having the fight, no, everyone's gonna do that in the argument. Sometimes people need more time, and knowing that is important too, because not everyone in the moment

is able to be that vulnerable straight away. But yeah, I think that, to me, this has been really helpful today and useful today, because I think what to me, this has been really helpful today and useful today because, you know, I think what you said about always feeling like we're the one doing every all the work and where those kind of mindsets can really lose a good thing. We've also talked about some of the unhealthy things to watch out for. And so I think it's just a healthy discussion because I think relationships are constantly going on in our life. So you never get to a place where you're like, we mastered that. Now we're on to the next thing. These things are

all so deep-rooted that I'm like, I'm deal with these things on a daily basis with my wife because you're just living with another human being, another mind, another person. And you've got to constantly refresh these ideas. So thank you so much. Yeah, I've genuinely appreciated refreshing some of these again ideas that I'm conscious of, but it's useful talking it out with someone and hearing your take on them too. Yeah, there's a big power in articulating the stuff that's like going on in our minds all the time. You talked about this. This is stuff that I already know, but there's difference between knowing and speaking, expressing and getting it out in there

for another person to witness it. It does something. 100%. So thank you for being open with me too. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone has been listening and watching. I hope that we discovered some useful skills and tools

for you to apply in your relationships. I hope that you got a deeper sense and understanding of the simplicity of therapy too, where we turn into a conversation at one point and I was sharing my opinions and ideas and I was getting to hear, hey, Susu, opinions and ideas too. And I hope that this encourages you a family member

of friend to seek advice, seek help, seek therapy. If that's what they need, that's what they're looking for. Please pass this on to someone who may be on the fence and figuring out whether it's useful to them. And just these being cars to have their first session and see how it goes. Again, I want to give a big thank you to our partners that better help. I want to give a big thank you to Jesus for being here and always facilitating these sessions. So wonderfully to give a big thank you to Hesu for being here and always facilitating these sessions so wonderfully. And a big thank you to all of you who've been listening and watching.

I appreciate you trusting me with your time, but also I trust you so much. And so I've been opening up so vulnerably in these sessions. I trust you with that. Thank you so much. This episode was sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Big thanks again to Hesujo,

Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. So just so you know, this was a therapy session that you got to get a look inside of, but Hesujo is not my therapist. We do not have a therapist-client relationship, but I wanted to show you what a therapy session could look like. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, the wear of self-diagnosis. You want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore

diagnosis. If that's important to you. What do a flirtatious, gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to Kittnapp her lover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life admits the challenges we face.

We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The therapy for Black Girls Podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal

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