On Purpose with Jay Shetty - 2 Unhealthy Eating Habits Many People Have & How To Improve Your Body Image and Confidence

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

To see my Top 3 Reasons why you should try online therapy visit betterhelp.com/jaystop3. You deserve to invest in yourself, and BetterHelp is a great way to do that. Go to betterhelp.com/jaystop3 and to get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up. For this special series, in partnership with Betterhelp, Jay Shetty sits down with Haesue Jo, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp and Jayme Cyk. Jayme, who has been unhappy with her previous sessions, shares how finding the right therapist has helped her gradually accept and love her own body.  What We Discuss:00:00 Intro03:18 What brings you to therapy today?04:09 Different eating habits that started at a young age07:57 Noticing that the eating habits are beyond being healthy and mindful12:34 Taking antidepressants since nine16:20 Conversations matter in every session20:23 Relationship between body image and self worth30:54 Now in the 6-month commitment to therapy33:24 Therapists should prioritize building rapport37:53 Finding the right therapistSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her

spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Regardless of the progress you've made in life, I believe we could all benefit from wisdom on handling common problems, making life seem more manageable, now more than ever. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of the One-E-Feet podcast, where I interview thought-provoking guests who offer practical wisdom that you can use to create the life you want.

25 years ago, I was homeless and addicted to heroin. I've made my way through addiction recovery, learned to navigate my clinical depression, and figured out how to build a fulfilling life. The one you feed has over 30 million downloads and was named one of the best podcasts by Apple podcasts. Oprah Magazine named this is one of 22 podcasts to help you live your best life. You always have the chance to begin again and feed the best of yourself. The trap is the person often thinks they'll act once they feel better.

It's actually the other way around. I have had over 500 conversations with world-renowned experts and yet I'm still striving to be better. Join me on this journey. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Honestly, I just want the obsessiveness to stop. Yes, of course, I want to lose the weight and I want to be happy in my body. I want all these different things that are conflicting,

but the obsessive that could just quiet, like my mind could quiet and I could just stop thinking about it that would be The most ideal because there are very dark days when I can't get out of my head Hey everyone, welcome back to a very special episode of On Purpose. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp Online Therapy and today I'm joined by Hesu Jo, licensed marriage and family therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. And in this new monthly series, we will be serving real listeners of the show, and you'll hear their stories, the things they struggle with, and get to

sit in on a real therapy session with the intention of letting you know that you're not alone. We're all struggling with something, even if we never show it. And our goal is to bring more awareness to taking care of your mental health and provide everyone the tools, resources and encouragement they need to heal their past for a bright future. Now, the reason that I wanted to do this was because I saw so many family members who were still triggered by therapy. Therapy is still has stigma and certain cultures, certain backgrounds, certain places around the world. It's not been normalized.

And I started to notice that one of the biggest reasons was because people had never sat in a therapy session. They were somewhat scared about it. They were somewhat apprehensive towards it. And we can often be like that. We can see videos of pretty much anything in the world today. Even if you've never been to a country or you've never done an activity, And we can often be like that. We can see videos of pretty much anything in the world today, even if you've never been to a country

or you've never done an activity. Chances are you can find it somewhere and watch it. But it's very rare to be invited into a therapy session because they're so personal and vulnerable. And that's why I wanna give a special thanks to our very special guest today, Jamie, who's been so kind enough to allow us into this space, to allow us to hear her story as an open book, as ASU, our incredible therapist guides her through

this discussion. So please give Jamie a big warm welcome. Jamie, thank you for being here. Thank you for doing this. ASU, thank you for being here. Thank you for doing this. Thanks for having me. Really great for the both of you for making time. I, you know, it's been a long-term intention of mine to want to help people find more tools and resources and the fact that we get to have this on the podcast where anyone and everyone is listening or watching can get to sit in on someone else's therapy session.

Hopefully, to find their own path is really, really important. So Hesu, I'm going to hand over to you when you're trusted hands. I'm going to be, everyone is listening and watching. I'm going to be you in this scenario. So I'm going to be observing, listening, taking mental notes, reflecting, and then sharing my reflections at the end as well. So Hesu, over to you. Thank you, Jamie, for coming here.

And please, me too. Often often the very first question that most people will hear in the therapy room, like what brings you to therapy today? I have for a very long time struggled with an eating disorder. Probably since I was seven or eight, I started to feel sort of the repercussions of a family member, my mom being the person. It's something that I've always struggled with. And I would say in the past two years, it got much worse, I think, being in the pandemic. And the idea that we didn't see people. And so when the world started to slowly open up, putting on clothes got really hard. More so than, you know, what I was wearing all day every day.

And so that's one sort of depression set in a lot deeper than it ever has been. And yeah, it's been a hard couple of years. Yeah, I mean, hard several years, right? I mean, you mentioned that this disordered eating began at seven years old. That's very young. Can you tell me a little bit more about

how you know that something about the way you were eating was different at such a young age? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it was a lot of comments that sort of came at me in terms of you shouldn't be eating this or you should be eating this. Even at seven, I think I started to notice other people's bodies and notice that I was developing before them. And I know that seven-year- old is a young age to notice that, but I think I just always felt bigger in some way.

And when I have this very visual memory of wearing the same outfit as one of my close friends and wearing a top that showed our stomachs and feeling as if I just like I wasn't good enough within my body. And so it's been a struggle in multiple ways since then. Early on you were already getting messaging of labeling of foods. This is good. This is bad.

And if I eat a bad food, I don't know if you're getting the messaging, but I think a lot of kids start feeling if I'm eating bad food, I a bad person and that can spiral into so many different things Can you tell me a little bit more about the actual eating habits that you have challenges with like would you say it's Under-eating overeating my eating habits are more in sort of the orthorexia Sort of way of eating which is more like, I'm very cognizant of eating healthy, or what I deem healthy. And the idea that certain foods are bad, and so I have a lot of shame around food.

And so I would say that how many hours awake that I am throughout the day, there is usually a time period in which I'm thinking about my next meal. Should I be eating this? I actually really want this, but like this isn't going to help me get to the place that I want to get in terms of the way that I want to look. My mind is constantly thinking through that, but food wise, it is really what I deem healthy. I would say that like I don't overeat and I don't under eat. It's kind of gone through faces and I think in the last couple of years as food has become more charged in the way of like, you know, there's always going to be a different diet.

There's always going to be like a different way of eating, even if they don't deem it a diet. I've definitely kind of come into that, especially my background is in the beauty industry. And so, yeah, it's, you know, there's always things that I could be trying, but ultimately that's not really good for me as someone who is working through an eating disorder. Right, right. So right now, wanting to learn more about the picture of who you are here, do you track what you eat? Like, what kind of ways do you monitor what you consume?

Currently, no, I don't, but what I do do is I make a list every week of all the foods I'm going to be eating, the meals I'm going to be making. That's something I do every single week and the workouts that I'm going to be doing. So that I don't have to think twice about something, although that's not always the case. I've had done a food diary, which has been helpful in the past, but ultimately it's really just sticking to the regimen

that I've made sort of my own Excel doc in. I'm a Virgo, so I like to make a lot of lists. And so that really just sort of is, yeah, that's sort of how I lay it out in terms of the way that I function. Yeah. And you're already familiar with orthorexia, so I imagine you've also experienced at times like people don't recognize that this could be disordered right? Because it looks like meal prepping.

I'm healthy. I'm working out, I'm planning my life out. So at what point do you think you noticed, this is beyond just like being healthy and mindful? I would say it was fairly recent, especially in the last two years, and I think with I'm on social media quite a lot. For your job, I imagine. For my job, but also I am just like,

I'm the person who sits there and it's like I see something interesting and I will click and I'll go down that rabbit hole following different people that I see and also with trying to bring up more types of bodies right now, especially with body positivity and you know just looking at those different types of bodies. I sort of started to see that like what, how people were talking about their own bodies and appreciating them. I was like, wait, but this isn't like the body that I was shown when I was, you know, 15 and the thing that I've wanted to emulate for so long and now other people, you know, want this type of body that I might not have wanted in the past.

And so I started to sort of see that a little bit. But then I also had an experience a couple of years ago where I worked with someone to get off of ADD medicine and it wasn't the right fit for me to work with this person. And it took away a lot of different foods within that, within everything that I was eating and it's sort of, it got a lot harder for the eating disorder. And I...

Weaning off of the ADD medication. Yeah, not that the ADD medication, anyway sort of made me feel different. It was more of the idea that I was taking off grains and all these different types of foods, essentially, to not have the brain fog. And so because I was removing all that from my diet, I saw I was losing weight. And when I

stopped working with this person, you know, I kind of just did my old thing. And so that really stressed me out where I saw myself gain more weight. And the idea of that I knew that I had such a strict regimen before that I was like, there's something not right here because like I've never eaten unhealthy as I'm saying in quotes, you know, on my terms. But ultimately, working with this person was just the wrong fit. It worsened my eating disorder and the idea of the orthorexia piece of that. It's just, I think I came to understand that like, there was something wrong here.

So when you mentioned, it has gotten worse in the past couple of years. Can you say more about what has gotten worse? You mentioned you're often thinking about food, what you're going to eat next. When something is so pervasive in our mind and it consumes all of our time, that's one of the first clues that it might be problematic. How else has this manifested in your life, like other than just your thoughts? You know, I find myself, especially in the past couple of years, sitting and moving in different ways so that I don't have to feel the different parts of my body that I don't

like, whether that's even going to bed and lying on my side and feeling as if something is touching me that I don't want to actually feel on that I want to change, I will manipulate my body so that I don't have to feel that way. I also was wearing basically like the same outfit every day during the pandemic and so I think in some way that got me to a place that I just, I couldn't put on anything else because I didn't want to know how tight something might be. I mean, I, of course, was hoping that it would be much more loose on myself when I tried

something on, but the idea that it could be tight would send me into a spiral and could send me straight to my bed where essentially I don't want to talk to anyone. I could be crying. It really all depends on sort of the situation. And I'll also add that I am on antidepressants. So if I happen to wake up the next morning before I take that antidepressant, there have been periods of time where I won't go to take it immediately. And I have a pretty short period I've learned from the time that I wake up to the time that I should be taking it where I can essentially sort of stay in, you know, this sort of like more calm zone. And so I wouldn't go take my medication immediately.

And so it would, that chemical imbalance really showed itself and made it really hard to get out of bed. And you know, sometimes my husband would have to pull me out of there and tell me to take my medication, which is exactly what I needed to do. What medication are you taking now? So I take vibrate and I also take well butrin. Okay. And so you're taking that regularly and do you see a psychiatrist for this or as a general

practitioner? Yeah, I see a psychiatrist. How often do you see them for check-ins that kind of stuff? Every three months. Every three months. Okay. And you're happy with the services that you're getting there. Yeah. I have been on an

Anti-Depressant since I was nine. So I've changed up my anti-depressants. I have felt a lot of shame and stigma being nine years old and taking it and took it maybe like a few times a week because I just didn't feel comfortable. I didn't understand why I took the medication. When I was 18, I went through something in college and decided to take my medication. And, you know, it's funny because all the things, you know, that I worry about with my body and the eating disorder and the things that I want to get better, my antidepressant has become like this light for me. And as like this thing that I appreciate so much in my life. It is, it's been a really important piece to sort of my recovery and it's really important. Yeah, with the medication, you mentioned you've been taking it since you were a child. Have you also been in therapy that whole time or when did the therapy journey for you begin? So I was put in therapy at five, which my mom claims was play therapy. So I don't really know what that means.

But I do have this very strong visual of me playing with toys in a woman's office. But I was in therapy until I was 18, and I hated it. Again, I didn't understand why I was in it. My therapist during high school was the last one that I really remember during that time period. And just didn't click with her. I didn't know what to say and I constantly was being... I was the one who had to talk. You know there wasn't much of a conversation which I know that in therapy it's very different for everyone and how everyone works but it was really uncomfortable for me and so I kind of

swore off therapy for a really long time. Yeah I mean that's understandable if you did not know why you were there. It sounds like you were not there out of your own free will, which is like a huge component of going into this process is like identifying what it is that you want to work on. And it's complicated with kids. Like kids are going to be put into therapy because their parents or their teachers are recognizing some kind of behavioral issue.

Yeah. But as you mentioned, and like put so well, a five-year-old is going to have a really hard time understanding like why they're even coming here. If they can have fun, that's great. Play therapy isn't thing. I love it. Um, I mean, you touched on not knowing why you're there. There's no rationale that was provided.

Can you tell me a bit more about what else you hated about it? The therapy that you hated? It's funny because my my mom would say that they would tell me things that I didn't want to hear and so that's why I hated it. Which I think is just like that's the whole gist of therapy. That's really why I hated it and I I didn't want to be told the things that I didn't even really understand about myself. I mean, of course, I understand that now. I asked my mom a few years ago, like, why was I in therapy so young? Why did you put me on an antidepressant? And she never really has a clear answer. And I do want to call the odd that like, I am very close with my mom. And she's super supportive, you know, she just did things I didn't understand.

And I've come to kind of learn that I always really wanted attention. And I think that maybe my parents teachers at school just like already always sort of like saw that as like acting out. I've always wanted attention also for my body. I've wanted people to praise my body to tell me that like, wow, you've lost weight or wow, like you look so You look so great in those jeans like what have you done? And I have never really gotten that and the only person I did get it from was my mom And it was the one person I never wanted to hear it from and I still feel that way

Yeah, I don't even know if I answered your question. I think I got far from Yeah, I'm trying to get a sense of like what about your past therapy experiences that you really didn't like and moving on from that. It's like what from these past experiences in therapy, can you recall enjoying like were their pieces and components they did like? In college, when I started to take my antidepressant and sort of realize that I needed it, I also went to a therapist that happened to be like part of my college at the time. And I saw this. So I'm not recommended by your mom.

She probably told me to see a therapist, but she didn't have to say in who it was. And I saw this woman and I remember really liking her and also remembering coming back and that she couldn't be my therapist the next semester. I think it was because it felt more of a conversation. She was asking me questions versus me constantly being like, this is what happened today or this is what's been going on in my life and I don't think that I could articulate that as a kid. I think I still want that conversation in a therapy session. I don't think I would so much want, you know, it would just be me,

but I think it would be a lot easier now, just as I've grown as a person and sort of like know the different things about me that obviously I didn't know then. So now when you're entering therapy, something that is important to you is to be able to be involved in the conversation to have a voice in what your goals are and what you're working on, and even just having some structure and guidance from the therapist to like move towards something versus just like, what do you want to talk about today? Right now, what would you say are your main focuses and goals? Yeah, I mean, it's really getting to a place where I can feel good in my body and I know

that that I've always said that I don't know if that will ever come. And there are days where that's even more in charge than, you know, I'm saying that now is like, I don't know if it'll ever come, but there are days where I'm like, it will actually never come. And so I want to be able to be comfortable in the body that I have in that moment to not feel as if like, you know, things feel really hard. Eating feels really hard. Even though I'll happily eat and I do enjoy food.

And even saying that is like hard for me to say. I like get uncomfortable saying that because of the way that I feel about my body and the idea that like I want to look a certain way. And so ultimately, it's just like being okay because the amount of space that food and my body takes up is pretty terrifying. Is it ever debilitating? Yeah. Right. So like consuming all of your mental energy, would you say that thinking about food, planning

food, avoiding food, has this gotten in the way of relationships or performance at work? So I would say, so I'm married and I definitely, we have a great relationship and we, he's very supportive and sort of anything that I want to do. But ultimately, yeah, it can get in the way. And I would even say that it gets in the way of libido. Granted, I am on antidepressants, and I know that that libido and antidepressants is, you know, not a great mix, or it doesn't mix, but ultimately, if I don't feel good in my body,

like I don't want anyone to touch me. And I would say that I have a very hard time being intimate in any way because I don't even want to feel my own body. So being touched is uncomfortable even though it's coming from a supportive place. even though it's coming from a supportive place. And I'm working on that and it's really hard when you have someone who cares so much about you and loves you the way you are, but even if he says that I'm beautiful or I look great, like, I can't take the compliment, I can't take it. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy.

What was meant is seen as a very snotty city. People call it Bosedangeless. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Newdum, and not lost as my new travel podcast, where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party. It doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Cholala who is aggressive towards strangers. I love the dogs.

We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling. But I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much... I love you too. My life's a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white, I love it.

Listen to Not Lost on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao. The tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen or tasted. I've never wanted us to have a gun bite. I mean, you saw this stacks of cash in our office.

Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate. We're all lost. It was madness. It was a game changer. People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind so they could search for more

of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building armed with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all these for a damn bar of chocolate.

Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast Hey, it's Debbie Brown and my podcast deeply well is a soft place to land on your wellness journey I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health around topics that are meant to expand and Support you on your journey from guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care, trauma, psychology, spirituality, astrology, and even intimacy. Here is where you'll pick up the tools to live as your highest self. Make better choices.

Heal and have more joy. My work is rooted in advanced meditation, metaphysics, spiritual psychology, energy healing, and trauma-informed practices. I believe that the more we heal and grow within ourselves, the more we are able to bring our creativity to life and live our purpose, which leads to community impact and higher consciousness for all beings.

Deeply well with Debbie Brown is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well is available now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love. Namaste.

You don't see it yourself, you don't believe it. And you know, we've all heard that phrase of like, I wish I, you could see yourself the way that I see you and it sounds like that's the way that you're loving and doding partner is. Can you tell me about the relationship between body image and self-worth? Yeah, I don't feel as if I'm worth a lot of different things in my life. I actually, so something that I do is, and this has only been in probably the last six months is on my Instagram, I've been doing these stream

of consciousness posts. I've never been a, a, a, a journaler. I'm a writer, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But, um, all of a sudden, I'm a writer, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But all of a sudden I started to kind of, these certain memories sort of started to come up. And so when that would come up, I would go to my notes and just like quickly write down a paragraph of sort of the different things that are on my mind in terms of my eating disorder.

And you asking about self-worth, that's why I'm bringing this up, is that I wrote a post recently saying that if I just was thinner, I'd have more clients. If I just were thinner, you know, so on and so forth. And so my self-worth is pretty depleted because I I realized so much on my body to do a lot of the work in terms of making me feel better about what I'm doing. You have this thing that comes up of if I achieve a particular body type, then I just all these negative feelings will go away. I'll feel better about myself. I'll learn how to be happy with who I am. Where do those scripts come from for what is the ideal body type? Can you say more about what is your prototype? Where does that come from for what is the ideal body type? Can you say more about like what is your prototype?

Like where does that come from? I mean I think it comes from my mom and I would say that's a big part of that. Although she's told me for a really long time that I can't blame her anymore. I haven't looked with her for years. But I don't know where else it comes from, to be honest. But it's always stuck with me. I have different visuals and sort of memories of being a kid and whether I'm trying on a friend's genes and the idea that they don't fit me.

So little things like that. That would be an interesting exploration, I think, for us to continue at some point. It's just figuring out where this prototype comes from. To dissect it, because then once you really understand it, I think it makes it a little bit more achievable to start letting it go, to start unlearning that so you can relearn and recompose a different ideal body, which might be the one that you're in right now. I think it's fair to want to achieve certain things, whether that's increased strength,

better balance, more stamina, more endurance, having personal goals like are important. So I think it's good for you to think about like goals that are separate from, I wanna lose eight pounds. It's not really about the weight. I wanna be able to go up these stairs and not get winded. For you, I'm hearing a lot about body image, not so much about like fitness. Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, I work out five to six times a week. And so I've come to learn that like the working out piece is the consistent part. And also working out sometimes I can, you know, that can stress me out too. If I see something on my body that I don't like that, I almost, I want to stop working out. I want a quit, but I keep moving through it. So I'm usually working out for, I always say that, like, I work out because I think it mentally makes me feel better, but honestly, like, it doesn't really help with my stress,

doesn't help with, like, my depression. It's just something that I know I need to do to have a better day, but ultimately, like, all the other things are still gonna bother me. But I always think about food as being the thing that that is what's gonna make a difference. And that's come pretty recently, knowing that the food is gonna be the thing,

that's gonna be the difference. It's not that the 30 minutes that I worked out on Monday, I should have done an hour. And I felt that differently in the past, but those things have changed a little bit. Something that I think would be interesting for both of us is like, as we continue forward and have more conversations, redefining goals, right? It sounds like everything when it comes to food, when it comes to your exercise, routine, and training your body, it's all comes back to like how you look.

So my hope and sense is that someday you'd like to also incorporate goals around health. Yeah, and I write about that. I mean, I showed an article about metabolic health. These are things that I'm researching and looking into all day long. And some of those things are things that I might wanna try, but I also know that

these types of things, talking about a glucose monitor that like that would probably be might be dangerous for me at this point. And I might have not realized that, you know, a couple of years ago, it might have been something that I just sort of like did immediately. I'm not to say that a glucose monitor is dangerous. I think they can be really helpful for people. But for me as someone who is already looking at, thinking about what I'm eating at all times and the idea that I'd have to check back into something and be more accountable than maybe I am sometimes

that it's just there's, it could be more stressful. Right, I mean, you're describing not wanting to become more obsessive about this thing that's already kind of impacting in negative way, a lot of areas of your life. And also, there's like a theme emerging here. There's a lot of conflicting things in your life. There's like a career that's that's really like in the world of body positivity, but you yourself are not feeling like that per se, even the stuff that you're writing for work. I think people might have a different

perception of the person that writes this when they're reading it, right? It's like maybe a persona almost. It's not quite who I'm seeing here. It's not a first-person piece. So they probably don't, you know, they're not necessarily focused on the person who's writing it so much. So, you know, something that you said about the obsessiveness of sort of the eating and also how we were talking about how like, I like want to feel good in my body, but I also want to like lose the weight, you know, that type of thing. I think honestly, I just want the obsessiveness to stop. Yes, of course, I want like lose the weight, you know, that type of thing. I think honestly, I just want the obsessiveness to stop. Yes, of course, I want to lose the weight and I want to be happy in my body. I want all these different things that are conflicting, but the obsessive back

could just quite like my mind could quiet and I could just stop thinking about it. That would be the most ideal because there are very dark days when I can't get out of my head. Yeah, so that's our goal. And zeroing in on this thing that has taken over your mind space. And then, you know, as we work on those kinds of things, other stuff begins to unfold. And I really, really appreciate you being so open and answering all these questions so honestly, because I think it helped us identify something here, which is what you really want first is to

address the obsessiveness. Yeah. The racing thoughts, the rumination, the dwelling, you know. Totally. And I think as someone who's like pretty, you know, doing those Instagram posts and, you know, I actually, I talk about to mental people about their own mental health all day as I have my own mental health platform. It's something that I created with my husband because we wanted to be able to tell other people's stories to make them not feel so alone. And it's funny to think that that, not funny, but it's, you know, I struggle so much. And I think that the idea that I have these conversations

with people has helped me to feel not so alone. But yeah, ultimately it's just, my, I don't, I don't really know how I do all my other work because my brain is constantly thinking about my body. Yeah. He said not funny, probably some irony. Right. Yes, and Jamie, thank you so much for that.

Jamie, thank you for being so honest and open and really letting us in. I think I was, of course, listening as all of our listeners and viewers and, you know, hearing someone who's so open allows me to have the same reflections about the voice that's in my head. I think you articulated so many things so effectively and so wonderfully, genuinely, that allowed me to articulate certain experiences and emotions that I have about some similar things that you've raised. That's only possible because you were willing to go there.

And I'm hoping that everyone has been listening and watching. I can definitely say that I think you've helped a lot of people today because you've just shown us the breadth of the human mind, where it can go, what it can experience, and because you've been doing that work to understand yourself, all of us who may not have the words or the voice to kind of piece them together,

we're hearing that through you. I know I definitely was. So thank you for that personally. I wanna help unpack a little bit of what we've done today, because you've both met for the first time today. As you had no background on you, Jamie. Right. And you had no background as well.

So this has been a real genuine interaction and conversation of real discovery. Jamie, how long have you been going to therapy for at the moment, or as in not since the days you didn't enjoy going, but more recently. The past six months. Okay, so it's been six months since that time from five to 18 that you didn't enjoy therapy to reconnect. There was a couple of like short, like two-month period where I've two-month period long sort of therapy. I would try someone new and I'm like, no, this isn't good,

and then it would might be like four years and I would do it again. So I would say in between sort of like 18 until now there might have been like three different therapists that I saw for like a month or two. And now you're in this six-month commitment phase, it sounds like with a bit more, it sounds like a bit more regularity and consistency. What has brought you to that now and what benefits are you seeing from the last six months? Yeah, what brought me to it was that it was getting harder to get out of bed. I guess I don't even know if I know like the quite the meaning of this term because I don't think I had suicide ideation, but I would lay in bed and think that like, I don't think I need to be here. I'm so unhappy with how I feel and how I look. Maybe I'm just not meant to be here. And so my husband had been telling me to go see a therapist for a while, And I think maybe the last time that I thought about

sort of the idea of me not being here was when I said, okay, I'll look for someone. And it wasn't, you know, the next day I went and like found someone, it was kind of like a little bit of a low trying to find someone that also could specialize in eating disorders, which I had never had. I don't exactly know what my therapist was when I was in high school, but you know, it was kind of just talking about like everything that was going on in my life.

So that's where I've been focused on the last six months. Yeah, and would you say there've been any, any skills that you've developed over that six months or anything you feel that you mock is progress for yourself? over that six months or anything, you feel that you mock is progress for yourself. Sort of talking to her in this, the person that I'm seeing in this ongoing basis has allowed me to find a couple of coping skills. It's not something that like it's so hard and set that I'm like, okay, I need to do, but a lot of breathing helps. And not even like, I'm not talking breath work. I'm just talking about like talking to myself, saying like, okay, I need to walk away from this

or I have to go finish this thing. That was something that I had to do a lot of when I was just on vacation a couple of weeks ago because it was the first time I had worn a bathing suit in a long time and worn different things that I hadn't worn in the past year. So I was really scared to go on that vacation as exciting as it was because I didn't want my stress and anxiety and panic to get in the way of my husband and I having a good

time. And I was able to get through that. Thank you for sharing that. And as you as well, for you, like, when just to give people a bit of an insight, when you're meeting a new perspective client or someone that you're having a conversation with in this situation, what are you trying to do? Like what is your process? Because I think just for, you know, obviously, here we have Jamie, who's very happy to be open and she's been so kind in letting

us in. A lot of people who may be listening and watching maybe just like, well, how do I be so open with a stranger and like, I don't know if I feel comfortable and just to let them in a bit to your process, what are you trying to do? Of course, I think you have a wonderful skill at making someone feel comfortable and not being invasive. You are very protective of someone's safety and how far they want to go. But could you help us understand a bit more of that? Yeah, great question. I think, you know, initially the big thing for many therapists, if not most, I hope all, is to build

rapport. It's like it's part of our textbook training is like, if this person doesn't feel safe, it's not about them trusting you as an individual. It's, do they textbook training is like, if this person doesn't feel safe, it's not about them trusting you as an individual. It's, do they feel safe in this room? Do they feel an absence of danger from you? These are big things for me. There are techniques, right? It's like about the loudness of your voice, mirroring your client's body language, just kind of being

really in tune with how quickly they're breathing, so a lot of nonverbal cues. So initially, it's very much about listening to understand versus listening to respond, which is what we all do in conversation, right? We're just wanting to make sure we're like keeping up or whatever it is. But for me, it's really wanting to understand, start to paint a picture of who you are, not just this person sitting in front of me, but the kid that existed, that grew up into who you are now,

and the parents that raised this person and all these dynamics. So of course, we didn't have like a full session today, and normally in my assessment process, when I'm first getting to know a client, I'm trying to get as much info about family dynamics. If you weren't raised by your biological parents, then finding a little bit more about

what that situation looked like. And that's because of my approach as a therapist. It is important for me to kind of start poking around childhood and always ask my clients, are you comfortable with this? Because some clients don't want to go there. And it's not necessary. You don't have to go there to start learning some real skills to start coping with today's

challenges. But when my clients do let me in there, I'll definitely want to go down that rabbit hole. Because there's just so much stuff that happened to us as children that we didn't understand at the time. Meaning we probably still don't understand it now. So having a space now to process it, connect it with our current emotions and relationship styles, the ways that we attach with other people, that becomes very important to me. There's something that therapists do that I'm sure everybody's aware of if they've been in therapy is paraphrasing, is saying back to you essentially what you just said, maybe rewording it a little bit, and

maybe adding like a little bit of my own insight here and there. And this creates the experience of like, she really heard me, you know, she's not putting her own stuff into this. She just wants to continue hearing me and seeing me. And that's, that's definitely a big intention of mine is I want this person to feel validated. If, you know, sometimes that might be the first time somebody's really felt seen in that way. My hope always for a new client and even more seasoned clients, like more established clients is that they

know that when they come to see me, it's always still going to be about them. I'm not ever going to flip the conversation to make it about me. Therapists sometimes use something called self-disclosure, which is just like giving you some nuggets about who I am. You have to be really intentional about doing that. It's very clear, even if the client can't articulate what's going on, when a therapist is overly using self-disclosure for reasons that aren't very productive or leading to anything good for the client,

clients know that they can feel it. Something about the session doesn't feel right when they leave, they don't feel as satisfied. So it's like some of the individual process. Very useful, yeah. I think those are really useful insights for people to be aware of what it feels like, what it looks like, why someone is doing that. Like you said, it may feel strange in your first session as to like, what is this keep us and keep repeating what

I'm saying? But there's a reason for it. You know, there's a reason to try and listen in. I want to ask you both one last question and of course, happy for you to share anything that's on your heart or mind. Jamie, for you, as someone who's had a variety of different therapy experiences without choice, now with choice, even the idea of people often refer to the idea of dating is like finding a therapist, like you're kind of like, oh, two months, okay? Nope. Okay. Yeah.

Right. What would you say are some things that were important to you or that if people are listening and watching and they're in that process that you could say, here, these are things that worked for me. These are things that I was looking for. If there were three things that were very important that helped you find someone that you now are consistently seeing for six months. Specialty was really important. And I would say that there are a lot, it is harder to filter eating disorders is what I've noticed in my experience

of looking for someone. So getting as specific as possible, if that's what you're needing therapy for, depending on where you're going, what you're doing. But yeah, that specialty was really important to me. Before I found the therapist who I'm seeing now, I spoke to someone else. And so, and it was necessary to kind of go through that process of talking to someone and realizing this isn't, you know, she was like a little too soft spoken for me. And sort of also understanding what I need

from like a conversation sort of perspective is that I need someone who will also, you know, talk back to me, give me the advice versus say like what's on your mind today. And so I kind of was taking notes as I was going through the process of finding a therapist that like, I really like it when she gives me this feedback. And that was really important. And that was something that absolutely didn't happen from being a kid until I was 18 and having those discussions with my therapist then.

Yeah, that's great. I find that really useful. I even think even making someone aware of that is so useful. So is there anything that clients make you aware of any questions they ask you that you think actually improves their relationship if there are people today who are like, oh wow, I need to go and find a therapist. I've been really inspired by this conversation. What are some of the things

you as a therapist would say, hey, please ask a therapist this question or please let your therapist know this that actually could speed up that opportunity to find the right person. What a great question. And at some point, I did ask you, like, were there things about your previous therapy experiences that you liked? Because I was trying to get to that. I was trying to get at what can I take from what you've done before and keep doing the good stuff, like take the good stuff, keep doing that.

So it is greatly appreciated, I think, by many therapists when clients come prepared with those questions. Like, initially, you should interview your therapist. Like, you're hiring them. And ultimately, you can also fire them. Like, that's what happens when you decide you don't want to work with them anymore. I think finding a specialist is also extremely important. Yeah, I go, that was a great point. Yeah, because someone can be really, really good at working with clients with anxiety and workplace stress. But if they have someone coming to them with concerns around orthorexia,

that's gonna be very challenging for the therapist because they're not well educated or trained. Yeah, somebody that specializes means they're going to additional trainings they may have gotten certified in something. They've began supervision or consultation with like somebody that's also master in this kind of world, which just means they've worked in it so long that they identify recognized patterns of behavior in a particular group of people. And so from there, you can start thinking about really specific coping skills, specific ways to help people build those skills, to help cope with life, because somebody that's like really good at getting you to think about how to cope with workplace stress is not

really going to understand, like, but you're meal prepping. That's a good thing, right? So it's okay for clients to ask all their questions about the therapist and come to the conclusion that they're not the right person because that's what the therapist wants to. We have a code of ethics to keep the public safe. And one of those pieces is you are not to work with clients that are outside of your scope of competence, right? Like if I have zero training, exposure, and understanding of any eating disorders, it would be a disservice to you

to try to work with you through this thing that I don't really know much about. I didn't say a specific question, but clients, please feel that you have the permission, of course, you should be asking questions and interviewing this person to see if they're a good fit for you. Yeah, yeah, I actually think that's a really great piece of feedback because often people think of

therapists as their authority and so there's a sense of like, oh no, no, this person's going to tell me, but actually in the beginning, before you're being guided, there is this interview process of making sure the person's compatible and right for you. And it took me a long time to get there. That's what I mean, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm in my 30s now and, you know, the last time I saw someone for like two months at a time I was in my 20s and definitely didn't ask any question.

I just was kind of like, all right, I'm just gonna go in and all here with this person has to say, but yeah, that was a learned skill for sure. Yeah. Are there any final words that either of you want to share with our community or audience today or each other? Because I'm feeling extremely grateful for this opportunity, Jamie, you've let us in.

And I'm hoping that this conversation has been useful to you in moving you forward toward your goals. I'm obviously hoping that this relationship continues. You know, Hesu, I think you've been so kind as well in generous with your time to truly sit with Jamie and help guide this discussion as well and your insights towards the end there. But any last few words from either of you? I would just say that, you know, like I think the reason that I've become because I know that it's not, it's not easy to talk to a therapist or

talk to anyone about your mental health and what's going on. And while I said, I've always been an open book and really vulnerable, it's only been the past couple of years that I've openly talked about sort of my antidepressant or my eating disorder. And ultimately, I just want to say that I do that because I want to help people feel not so alone. And that's also why, like I said, I had started and repeat with my husband our mental health platform.

But the thing is, I'm going through it as I'm talking to all these people. So thank you and thank you for both having me. Now, you're definitely helping people not feel alone and your vulnerability is definitely helping this community. So thank you so much. All the more thank you, thank you, thank you, because therapists for years, decades have been wondering how to solve this problem of how do we get more people to understand that

this is something that anybody can benefit from. And it's really like this boom in the past like five years or so, where it's becoming a bit more normalized to talk about mental health. And that conversation is only going to keep propelling in that direction because of people like you, because of people that are willing to speak on these things and be so open and vulnerable. So I am very grateful to you. You can have a whole like thousands of therapists saying go to therapy, go to therapy, but it's not as powerful as a real live person who's not a therapist talking about the benefits that they've had.

So I really appreciate you and your time too. Thanks. I want to thank everyone who's been listening and watching wherever you are in the world. And I'm hoping that this conversation, this live therapy session that you got to watch has encouraged you, maybe taken away some of those barriers, taken away some of those boundaries that you've created towards therapy and made them easier for you to cross, or maybe sharing this with a friend or family member who may have barriers or boundaries of their

own. And they can see how each and every one of us can share our space, our time, our energy, and learn a bit more about ourselves. And even if that's all we achieve from that time, how powerful it can be in this journey of life. And so I want to remind everyone to keep coming back for these episodes where we will be diving into a life therapy session so that you can get that insight. And these episodes are brought to be diving into a live therapy session so that you can get that insight. And these episodes are brought to you by BetterHelp that are helping millions of people by making

professional therapy more affordable and accessible than ever. So to see my top reasons why you should try online therapy, visit betterhelp.com forward slash J's top three. That's better at lp.com forward slash J a Y S T O P three. And when you do that, we're giving away 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up. So I encourage you all to do that or encourage you to recommend it to a friend. And remember, you deserve to invest in yourself and better help is a great way to start to do that. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Hesu and thank you, Jamie again.

I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets. The variety of them continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share 10 incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets

on the I Heartart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Lewis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon.

What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender, invisible things we don't usually talk about. I'm Megan Devine. Host to the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by Stellar Gas like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you listen to podcasts. anymore. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.