On Purpose with Jay Shetty - 3 Signs You Could Be Dealing With Depression & How to Stop Self-Sabotage

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

To see my Top 3 Reasons why you should try online therapy visit betterhelp.com/jaystop3You deserve to invest in yourself, and BetterHelp is a great way to do that.Go to betterhelp.com/jaystop3 and to get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up. For this special series, in partnership with Betterhelp, Jay Shetty sits down with Haesue Jo, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp and Ashley Carr. Ashley talks about her journey throughout therapy and how it has helped her become a better person that she is now. What We Discuss:00:00 Intro04:12 How Ashley got into therapy and stigma around it07:37 Therapy is not just for the weak-minded08:58 Waking up everyday and feeling that you’re not enough10:39 Skills she learned in therapy14:07 Self-sabotage in return for love15:44 How we’re acting in the present stems from our childhood experiences17:14 Learning and understanding that we don’t need to accept the bad things that happens in our lives19:33 What her life would be like if she didn’t go to therapy21:05 Self-awareness is the first step24:09 Accepting yourself25:36 When did therapy become a choice27:04 Every question during therapy has intention29:33 Sometimes advice from our family or friends might not be the one we need36:06 Advice to others on why they should try therapy40:08 Depression symptoms41:36 How parents can handle their kid’s emotions46:49 Therapy is life-changingSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart,

Lewis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw, real-life stories behind their journeys, and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender invisible things we don't usually talk about?

I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by Stellar, Gas like Abormatte, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app,

or wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode discusses serious matters, including suicide, childhood trauma, substance use, and depression. Every single morning, the first thing I would do is cry, just because being awake was that difficult. I feel like a ticking time bomb. It was just a matter of when, really.

Hey everyone, welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose. The number one health podcast in the world thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now I am so grateful for this amazing community that we have for each and every one of you that lend me your ears twice a week. And as you know I'm always always thinking about new ways in which we can serve and support our community and your journeys towards a better understanding of yourself and a better understanding of your friends, your family members and the people around you and the world around us as well. Now, this episode is sponsored

by BetterHelp Online Therapy. And today, I'm joined with Hesu Jo licensed marriage and family therapist and head of clinical operations at Better Help. And in this new monthly series, we will be serving real listeners of the show and community. You'll hear the stories, the things that they struggle with and get to sit in on a real therapy session with the intention of letting you know you're not alone. We're all dealing with something. And in every show, we will address different themes, different experiences. And our goal is to bring more awareness to taking care of your mental health and provide everyone the tools, resources and encouragement they need to heal their past for a brighter future.

Now when we were thinking about this idea, one of the things I realized is that today we hear a lot about therapy. People say, oh, my therapy said this to me or I learned this in therapy, but rarely have we actually sat in on a therapy session. We don't know what it looks like. And often our family members don't know what it looks like. I'm hoping that this is going to be a resource that you can share with your friends, your family so that they can understand therapy better, so that you can understand therapy better. And as a community, we can heal together as well. Today, Hesu and I are joined by a very wonderful and special individual named Ashley.

And Ashley's joined us today to share her journey, to share her story. And I want you to welcome her and give her the deepest, warmest, most beautiful welcome from our on purpose community, because she so kindly agreed to be a part of this today. So, Hesu and Ashley, so grateful to have you here. I'm really, really thankful to do this with both of you. And this is the first time we're doing this. It's historic and it's special, but thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for including both of us. Yeah, it's exciting. It is exciting.

And we were talking a bit beforehand. And we really want to honor you actually and make sure that we serve you in an effective way. And so I'm going to now hand over to Hesu, who's going to start this wonderful conversation and discussion. So Hesu, over to you. I mean, just continuing a little bit of something Jay was mentioning, I want to make sure that you feel safe, that you feel comfortable.

So if there's ever a moment that the conversation is going somewhere that doesn't feel right for you, you can indicate that in whatever way that you need to. But thank you. Thank you so much for being willing and open to talk about yourself. doesn't feel right for you, you can indicate that in whatever way that you need to. But thank you, thank you so much for being willing and open to talk about yourself for so many people because I think part of destigmatizing the idea of seeking support is seeing other people do that, right? Seeing other real people doing that versus just hearing commercial after ad about doing this or trying this new thing.

So my understanding is that you've already been in therapy for some time and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what initially got you to try it the first time. So initially I was so against therapy. I didn't want nothing to do with it. Like I thought I was a lost cause. I was like no one can help me. Like no one can imagine what I'm going through or even trying to tell me what I can do to get better

because in my minds, nothing could help me. 2018 I believe. I overdosed on like sleepy meds. And after that, I was kind of actually forced into it. Like I didn't have a choice. And that kind of started my therapy journey. And from there, I was in therapy for two years. So something going on in your life

led to some unsafe behaviors, like ways to cope. Like people often turn to substance when there is trauma because it helps numb stuff. It helps you not think about things. And sometimes you feel good, right? It makes you feel not just better from this thing that has been painful, but it feels good. And so I'm hearing that you had kind of like a mandated

route into therapy. You mentioned that you wouldn't have considered it. So what were some of your ideas about what therapy was before? I didn't even know what even began, what therapy looks like. I just thought someone would just sit there and tell me, oh, how do you feel about that? Hmm. How do you feel about

that? You know what I mean? That's kind of like what I thought or like someone trying to preach to me or like tell me what to do or how I should do it. But really, it wasn't like that at all for me. It ended up being something different. Exactly. I know you can't give an entire synopsis of the therapeutic journey that you've been through, but now that you have gone through some of these sessions and it sounds like you found out it wasn't just, so how did that make you feel? I'm sure your therapist did ask many times, well how did that make you feel?

What do you think of therapy now then? What is therapy if somebody is to ask you a seasoned client like what to expect if they were to try this out? Therapy is amazing, honestly. I recommend it to everybody. They tell me the problems like, you know what you need?

A therapist, I'm like, I don't mean that. Like a negative, it's not a negative thing at all. It's very positive and I try to enlighten that. But for me, when I was in therapy, okay, so you have these dark thoughts. I mean, you don't recognize them, or you didn't even know what they are, it can easily spiral out of control.

And so with therapy, she really helps me recognize these thinking traps is what we would call them. And throughout the day, I was more aware, like if I was say, I'm worthless, or you can't do that, I was like, wait a minute. Like, that's not true. Like, let's kind of lay it out and understand like what this is, like where it's coming from.

That's something I still practice until this day, everything on day, catch myself thinking something negative. And obviously there's more to it, but something I really took away from that. Yeah, you're describing cognitive behavioral behavior. Exactly. That's what it is. Yeah, you went through this process where somebody helped you learn to identify and then articulate your internal process, because when you can start talking about it or even understanding it a little bit better, I think that's when you really are able to make strides in terms of finding healing for yourself, the ability to let the things go that you need to, the ability to move on. So you shared a little bit about what led to your first session, right?

Somebody, you were forced because you came on safety yourself. Exactly. Can you share now what you think led to the types of feelings you were trying to numb with substances? Well, I think it was just like a let up. There wasn't like a particular event, well, something did trigger it, and I can talk about that. But overall, I've been struggling with it for,

since I was a young child. I think it was like really just like a matter of time. And I think it was really just a matter of time. And I think if I received help sooner, it wouldn't have gotten to that point. And for a lot of people like me, unfortunately, something that drastic has to happen for us to even want to accept help. Yeah.

The rock bottom experience, right? Not just people, not just people. I should say, we often feel like there's some kind of like shortcoming or something wrong with me if I need to reach out for support because a lot of us have this misconception that therapy is for the weak minded. Yeah. The people that are absent of some kind of strong will of their own. And it takes a lot of courage, I think, to finally realize like vulnerability takes a lot

of strength. Being able to open up to yourself and admit a lot of stuff. So you mentioned, like, your life led to that moment, I'm sure, series events. And then you also said something about something did trigger this. So that's something that you're willing to kind of open up about now. I think at that time, my depression really had a hold of me. Every single morning, I would, the first thing I would do is cry,

just because being awake was that difficult. I couldn't even, I didn't even wanna spend the day with myself, mentally. That was going on for a couple of months and I feel like no matter what I did, like one day I would wake up. I feel like I would do a good job,

but I feel like it was still not enough. I'm like, wow, I really gave it my all, and it still was not enough. I was like, what is the point of being here? One day my ex-boyfriend and I got in an argument, and I was like, wow, I will, I'm just, again, I'll never be enough, I'll not be worthy. And normally in those situations, I will contemplate, I'll have a conversation with myself.

Like, okay, Ashley, you know, one more day, one more day, like just hold on, hold on. But that day, there was no conversation with myself. A switch just flipped. And I just went through with it and I was like, worst case scenario, I go to sleep. And I wake up like, okay, but like best case scenario for me, I go to sleep and I don't even know what happened. That's what I was hoping for. But then exactly go as plans, which is probably the best. I feel like a like a ticking time bomb. It was just a matter of when really you're describing just like living for

such a long time without knowing how to regulate your emotions and really process a lot of stuff, right? And it like blew up in an argument Sounds like I'm gonna shift gears a little bit and kind of ask a little bit more about your previous therapy experiences so far So why you've been in therapy. I'm hearing you say that you've learned some skills, you've learned some things to cope with and navigate everyday life. How did you learn that stuff? What is it that the therapist was doing to teach these things, right? So, I'm a huge imagery person. And one thing we would do, it was kind of like how I describe it, like a court case.

Okay? You have the jury,, like the lawyer, stuff like that. One thing I struggled with was feeling like I'm not capable of taking care of myself. Like I'm a grown adult, I should be able to take care of myself. And I couldn't. And so we would break down the evidence, like, okay, what's real? Like what's false? Like let's just recognize that there. Because when you're at this kind of mindset, you tell yourself so many lies, stuff that's not being true. And so I would, I'm like, okay, well, I do this.

I do my laundry sometimes. Like, I have been working out past couple of weeks. Like, oh, you do feed yourself. You have to give yourself credit for the things that you actually do. And you, I would, we would write it down the evidence section. And we would write down like what was false. And basically like the jury would come to the conclusion like no, you are capable. So yeah, you would just really just

have to in that process give yourself credit and kind of look at what was real and what was in. And you would shift those thoughts of, I should be able to. And you'd change it into, no, you are able to, and you do. It's not just shifting the way you think about stuff, taking on different perspectives, hearing someone kind of reword or paraphrase your life

in a different way. It sounds like you've learned a lot about yourself too. There's a period of time where it sounds like you didn't really know who you were. Like what parts of learning these skills, learning how to identify evidence for and against some kind of thought or belief helped you figure out who you are.

Do you feel like there's some kind of self exploration, self identification type of process. Like, it's not just learning skills, right? It's, I guess I'm trying to get to your sense of, any kind of change in the ways that you perceive yourself. Like how has that kind of shifted in that two year period? So a lot of people, I believe, feel like they go to therapy and overnight, they're so much better.

And that's just not the case. And for me, again, until this day, I, it's something I have to practice every single day. So there wasn't like one particular moment where I just like saw myself in like a better light. Eventually you keep practicing and practicing and practicing. And eventually you start to learn yourself, you start to value yourself and you see yourself in a whole different light. You have, you learn boundaries and you have them now and you have rules for yourself and

you don't allow certain people or certain situations control you as much because you have more confidence in the tools and the cubi mechanisms that you have developed throughout therapy. And that's definitely that helped me a lot. And like till this day, I really do see myself in a higher light. And I don't let people take advantage of me as much as I used to back in the day. Back in the day, people advantage of you. In what ways do you think that was happening that you're able to prevent now? Well, just one example you were mentioning earlier, people, they kind of self-hat sabotage whether it's drugs, alcohol. For me, I didn't do any of that.

For me, my reckless behavior was being promiscuous And that's kind of like what I learned growing up was giving yourself for, in return for love. So that's what I thought I had to do in order to receive any sort of love. And so I would give myself to guys, you know, and like thinking, oh, this is how they're going to accept me. This is like, whether they're gonna love me, this is where I'm valued. And now it's not like that at all. I'm just like, no, I have so much more to give than my body, you know what I mean?

And so that's just one example of how things have definitely shifted for me. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy. What has been seen as a very snotty city? People call it Bosedangeless. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay.

A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Newdum and not lost as my new travel podcast where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party. It doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Cholala who is aggressive towards strangers. I love the dogs. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling, but I get to travel with someone I love.

Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much... I'm very sincere. I love you too. My life's a lot of therapy goes behind that. You're so white, I love it. Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade?

I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the Psychology of Your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s. From career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more, to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences, incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience.

Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our twenties are really all about. From the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our twenties. The psychology of your twenties hosted by me, Gemma Speg, now streaming on the I-Hot Radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. In the 1680s, a feisty, opera singer burned down an unnery and stole away with her secret lover. In 1810, a pirate queen negotiated her cruise way to total freedom, with all their loot.

During World War II, a flirtatious gambling double agent helped keep D-Day a secret from the Germans. What are these stories having common? They're all about real women who were left out of your history books. If you're tired of missing out, check out the Womanica podcast, a daily women's history podcast highlighting women you may not have heard of, but definitely should know about. I'm your host, Jenny Kaplan, and for me, diving into these stories is the best part of my day.

I learned something new about women from around the world and leave feeling amazed, inspired, and sometimes shocked. Listen on the iHeartRadio app,, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're speaking to something huge here, right? It's like we as people, we learn how to not only give love, but how to receive love from very significant people really early in our lives, childhood, and those people that are supposed to love us unconditionally keep us safe, nurture us, show us that the world is a safe place, have a lot of power over us as young children. And so what I'm hearing is when you're a young child, some kind of event or series events taught you

that love means something, you know, specific, right? So I'm curious in your therapy experience, how much did you go back and talk about your childhood in that time? When I went to therapy, we did go, well, you kind of have to understand why you feel this way and it does stem from your childhood, everything. So we really did start from there

and we broke it down from there. It really does help. You start to realize how you're acting in the presence is, it stems from that. We re-enact, we try to correct what happened to us as kids in our adult relationships. And I think we all try to the best of our ability, but to try to correct something that happened to us when we were six. And we didn't know any better, you know?

Trying to make this six-year-old be smarter. You should have known better, which we tell ourselves all the time. It sounds like you learned to have compassion for the small child inside of you. Yes, 100% like even to this day. I'm 27 years old. And I still to this day, I still feel like that little girl.

I feel like it's my duty to protect myself and be that person little Ashley needed when she was younger. You really do feel like it's your fault. Like, or you should have done this differently in your show, done that. You blame yourself and you're ashamed of it, but really it's not in your control and the people in your lives should've been the ones protecting you.

Yeah, shame. Shame is a very powerful thing, right? It's like, there's like a difference between when we feel guilty for doing something bad, we recognize that this thing, we probably could've made a different choice. But shame was like adding some really painful and uncomfortable stuff on top of that. I did this bad thing because I'm a bad person, or this bad thing happened to me,

and I deserved it because I'm a bad person. Like in therapy, do you feel like you can remember some kind of shift in that sense of shame, like something that released you from feeling like, all this stuff happened to me because I'm bad. What about this process? What about talking about yourself and your life helped you start to shift this idea away from being a bad person? Because I'm here, you say that you are a good person.

Why didn't that change? Like, how does that change? There's not one moment where it just shifts. It truly is. it happens over time and within my time of therapy, the two years, of course, I, relationships, jobs, real life situations are happening and when I'm acting on them and I feel like,

oh, this is happening to me, I deserve it. Anyways, I'm a piece of crap, you know what I mean? Like, and so you would accept that for yourself. But over time, you realize, like, wait a minute. Like, I don't deserve that at all. It shouldn't be happening to me. You shouldn't accept that. And once you create those boundaries for yourself,

and practice it, it does get better. You know, a lot of people wonder, like, why do we go to therapy every week? What is it about this cadence of whatever? And it's like, why don't we go every day if I'm trying to solve this huge problem that's been part of my life for such a long time? And really, your life, your healing

is what happens outside of therapy. It's just one hour a week, most of the time. It's like, you can't expect this one hour of week talking to someone on the couch or whatever to fix everything. It's talking about some stuff, learning some things, identifying feelings and behaviors that you could try to start working on in a different way. It's in your real life outside of the session that this transformation is really happening for some people very gradually

and over a long period of time. You mentioned your 27, that's potentially 25 years of learning how to be in a particular space in a body and it's going to take time to like unlearn, relearn, and start seeing the world in a way that is safe. Right? So what would you say like if you had not gone to therapy, you know, where would we be? Where would you be? Oh my goodness. Like if I never went to therapy, where would you be? Oh my goodness. Like if I never went to therapy, I would not be the person that I am today, nor be the person that I'm becoming. My self-awareness has grown so much. And I'm able to take care of myself more mentally. I'm able to value my thoughts more. Or just like, again, if I'm negative, I recognize it real

quick and I try to change it into something more enlightening and more actually true. I go from false to true. You know, people come to therapy and over time after what's called the assessment period where your therapist is getting to know you and asking you about your family history and like all your school stuff and everything you remember from your family childhoods, whatever. Once you move past this initial period where you're building this relationship, you start thinking about goals. What are the goals that I want to work on? And so you and your therapist like agree on these. Usually two or three major things that you want to achieve through this process.

And usually you're looking for something called smart goals. People talk about this all the time. You want to be specific, measurable. What's not always explicitly stated as a goal is increased self-awareness, but I think that's always going to be an outcome. At least I think most therapists are hoping that that's an outcome for their clients.

I'm really glad that you were able to even identify that that's something that's shifted for you. Self-awareness. Yes, honestly, without my self-awareness, I think I would be so lost, because I do believe self-awareness is the first step. You have to even recognize what you're doing or how you're behaving or what you're thinking about yourself. That's where it's starting, like, from recognizing it. So if you don't recognize it, you really can't move forward or even try to get better. You were talking about the assessments, right? And so maybe like every six months, we would review. And when I was feeling

better, you know, I'm doing better, we're reviewing from six months ago. And it was so sad. And I was, my heart was breaking for six months ago, Ashley. And she was saying, she was saying I'm referring to another person. Honestly, that's how I feel. It's like I feel like a new person, like honestly, but she was just referring to her like a self-like, unworthy, I'll never get better.

It's like, it was very, very dark thoughts. And I was so sad for all my, oh my God, and like, that was me. Are you sure you're on the right assessment? I'm like, I said these things. And yeah, it's true. It was just like, it was a transformation. And to reflect back on all of those

and like, how was feeling where I am today? It was a good feeling, because I wasn't feeling that way any longer. What you said is like exciting to me because you're describing this very powerful component of not just therapy, but just like tracking, tracking your thoughts, tracking your moods, your behaviors. This is like why a lot of people choose to journal. They like to look back and see how far they've come. Like if you never wrote down or put somewhere where you could remember where you were, it's very, very hard to identify how much better

you've become, how much better you're feeling. So in therapy, it's a really like specific, intentional place to be able to have someone else doing that with you, tracking stuff, bringing your attention back to like, remember what you said last time? Because that doesn't really fit with what you're saying today.

I'm hearing that you had a great therapist really. It's like somebody that is with you in this moment, but also taking you back to relevant moments in the past to make connections. This is what helps people gain better self-awareness because self-aware people think about themselves in every chapter and season of their lives, try to relate the past to the present

and how that's going to affect their future. And really, somebody that's not self-aware is gonna be really hard for them to practice empathy, the ability to feel for another. So can you say anything about your experience with empathy and whether you've noticed a shift with that with your improved self-awareness. Yeah, so I was concerned myself an empathetic person, even before then, but there would be times

where I'd feel like a robot, like almost incapable of feeling sorry for somebody. I feel back, so I feel like I should feel something towards them, but I don't. And I really do. I think that helped me later on down the line to be more empathetic, 100%. That's like a big life thing. It's like I think we're all hardwired to connect, to want to be with other people, to have intimacy with folks that are important to us. And how can you do that if you don't even know who you are?

Yes, 100%. When you're don't even know who you are? Yes. 100%. When you're really not sure of who you are, I mean, I don't know who I am. I'm still growing, you know, but at that time, when you, you're just kind of like, I would describe myself as a loose cannon, you know what I mean? Like I couldn't process any type of emotions or receive love. Like I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't know how to accept it, nor would it return it.

It really affected how I dealt with relationships, friendship, trips, careers, just because I didn't even know how certain emotions or certain situations would look like. I didn't know what was normal. We have these wounds inside, right, that I think a lot of us want to heal. We attempt to heal them in so many different ways, whether it's substance that helps numb these wounds inside, right? That I think a lot of us want to heal. We attempt to heal them in so many different ways,

whether it's substance that helps numb these wounds a little bit, or regular sexual behaviors, where we're trying to connect, where we're chasing intimacy, but it's still a little bit different, or you know, burying ourselves and work, like all this stuff that we're trying to do to feel normal, like you say. What I'm hearing is like a larger acceptance of just you as you are,

that you don't have to perform, that you don't have to be, like a specific model of someone in order to be worthy of anything. You really accomplished a lot. Thank you. What would you say were your initial goals? I mean, you know, past the point of like being forced into therapy, when did it become a choice to you?

Every time I look forward to therapy and things will happen throughout the week. And I used to go to therapy once a week. I would leave the route the house and I would be like, my therapist is gonna get it earful today. Like I couldn't wait to share what I was going through with my therapist. Like someone who understand wasn't judging me, someone I was going through with my therapist. Someone who understand, wasn't judging me. Someone who can break it down for me. That was really refreshing because I still don't really have that support system family-wise. So having that one person in my life that I can trust and turn to, it was amazing. Somebody that's listening to you to respond to you about you, you

mentioned like, I don't have this in my family and like even people with very loving, very caring, very well-meaning families still don't really always have that with family because those good intentions also come with their own baggage and their own feelings and their own agendas of what they want between them and you. Somebody to break it down, just hear you out, help you, help mirror stuff, right? Like, therapists say like, we're just here to hold up a mirror, right? To help you see, see yourself a little bit better, because we all go through trauma that that makes it very difficult for us to like see past all this stuff that we build up to protect

ourselves from future traumas. In therapy, the therapist asks you a lot of questions. What's your sense of what these questions are for? Why do we ask so many questions? Or why do you think that we ask so many questions? In the beginning, obviously, I'm just like, no, Z. I'm like, okay, you know what I was like, geez, I'm so scaredy too. I'm like, but really it's come to find out, like, again, holding the mirror up, it's really reflection,

like, who you are as a person, how'd you become this person, why are you acting this way? So every question, there is really intention behind it. It's not just some aimless question, like, trying to be nosy, you know, like, they're not judging you. So I feel like every single question for my therapist, you know, there was, she was just looking out for me and wanted to help me become more aware of why I was behaving a certain way or acting or thinking a certain way. Yeah, all the questions, intention, I like that you use that because, you know, sometimes

therapists who are just people or just people Sometimes those curious questions or how you would say nozy they do pop up here and there Yeah, but it is like a therapist Kind of duty to Refrain from doing that like you might be talking about something from your life And then you mentioned like a restaurant that I've been to. And my initial reaction of wanting to talk about and make this connection like, oh, I've been there. And I got this item from the menu.

Like, those things, we often refrain from that because in therapy, it is about you. Of course, it's going to somewhat be about me because I'm a human. And we're connecting as two people. And my experiences, beliefs and values are going to be present in this room. But it's very important for therapists

not to impose those things, right? Or like make you have particular goals or try to get you to think the way that I do. Very unbiased, non-judgmental. It was very neutral. Like you said, she didn't try to impose her opinions or thoughts to when I started to extend the thoughts, but opinions she never really did that. Right. Right. The opinion stuff, we're like, we're taught and trained. Like, leave that

stuff outside the door, go to your own therapy so you're really sure of what you are stances on a bunch of stuff for, so that you don't have to come into a session and argue clients about it. Especially in like heated climates like we have in current modern society. I can't imagine going to a therapy session and she's telling me no you're wrong. I'm just like, we're having like this debate, you know what I mean?

It's not like that at all. I'm very glad you had that because a personal experience, which I think a lot of people can relate to, is we turn to sometimes a best friend, an older family member, maybe our mom. We turn to these people with the expectation that they will be there for us without judgment, that they'll respond to us in a way that's loving and caring and nurturing.

And a lot of times those responses are loving, caring and nurturing, but they're also filled with the judgment, the criticisms of, you could have done it this way. It probably would have been better if you thought about it this way. So family, very well-meaning, but also emotionally charged, also entangled into your life, and they have their own motivations, things that they're trying to accomplish

to propel this relationship in whatever direction. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh, wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao. The tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen. Poor tasted.

I've never wanted us to have a gun bite. I mean, you saw the stacks of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate. We're all lost. It was madness. It was a game changer.

People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building armed with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that that you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, all these for a damn bar of chocolate. Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season. And yet, we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them, continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share ten incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. When I realized this is not just happening to me,

this is who and what I am. I needed her to help me. Something was gnawing at me that I couldn't put my finger on, that I just felt somehow that there was a piece missing. Why not restart? Look at all the things that were going wrong. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you'll get your podcasts. I am Miamla, and on my podcast, the R-Spot, we're having inspirational educational and sometimes difficult and challenging conversations about relationships. They may not have the capacity to give you what you need and insisting means that you are abusing yourself now. You human! That means that you're crazy as hell, just like the rest of us.

When a relationship breaks down, I take copious notes and I want to share them with you. Anybody with two eyes and a brain knows that too much Alfredo sauce is just no good for you. But if you're going to eat it, they're not going to stop you. So he's going to continue to give you the Alfredo sauce and put it even on your grits if you don't stop him. Listen to the art spot on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. When you're in such a vulnerable state

and you don't know what's going on, and even though maybe a family member has great intentions and they're basically putting their thoughts and opinions onto you, you're in a really vulnerable state and you might take their advice and it's just totally wrong and totally not the right direction to go. So even though family members are supportive, therapy is definitely highly recommended for my ends. Makes me wonder like what big differences. You've shared some already, but some other differences that you can think of between going to like a really close friend for support versus talking to a therapist. So even just when I was a teenager,

I turned to my best friends, and it's not her fault because she's not like it. She's just like it too. And I'm like, hey, I think I'm really depressed. And she's like, you're not depressed. You're just sad. Here's like, okay. And then my ex-boyfriend, from around that time,

I would try to express my thoughts and my concerns. And he thought I was looking for attention and make little like snickers with his friends, like, oh my God, this girl's crazy. You know what I mean? Like psycho. And at this point, you're just, like you don't even understand it yourself.

She's like, oh, I am psycho. I'm real crazy. Like I'm gonna show you crazy. Like you act on that, you know, because that's what you believe you are and my mom That's a different story, you know, I try to tell her I'm like, I'm so angry. I feel this way I'm like I don't understand why like I think I need help and I don't know what was wrong thing or why I'm this way I just knew it was it normal and

She doesn't even lack or she doesn't even Have the depth to understand such a concept. So maybe she cared for me, but she wasn't the ideal person to try to go for help. So those were my three closest people in my life. Again, it's not my ex-boyfriend's fault or my best friend's fault. They don't know any better. Yeah. But as a parental figure,

I definitely needed more guidance and more direction. And a lot of people don't have that. And I think that's another thing that's stirred me away from wanting to receive any more help just because of those kind of experiences. I'm like, wow, no one understands and no one's gonna wanna help me. Yeah, I mean, this is what happens when I open up is I met with like rejection

or someone with drawing or someone shutting down or someone telling me I'm wrong invalidating my experience saying that I'm not really feeling the thing that I think I'm feeling. You feel like you shouldn't be feeling this way. Like you don't have a right to or like you're just looking for attention or people have it worse, you know, like why do you feel that way? You have no right to feel that way. So that really does affect you. And how you portray people.

There are people out there that haven't much worse than you. I think that is like someone's attempt to help you feel better because they're like trying to minimize the issue that you're bringing to them. Or even your friend, like, you're not depressed, you're just sad. I can see that being a 16 year old solid attempt making the situation less scary, but not just for you, but less scary for her. Same thing with your ex-boyfriend, like making a joke of this thing that you're bringing up that's actually really uncomfortable for you. A lot of people respond that way because they don't know how else to handle it. They can't hold space for it because they're not really sure what to do.

And they start feeling heightened. They start feeling emotional themselves. And then their own defense mechanisms start coming out. And some people use humor, which can be very harmful to like the people around them. Yeah. And then, you know, with mom, it's a lot of moms, they really mean well, but they are also people. And a lot of moms have, I mean, playing your moms have been to therapy, but I think a lot of them haven't. And this thing that you mentioned of like, maybe she doesn't have the depth, it's probably she doesn't have the training, she doesn't have the understanding to help you feel safe in the feelings that you're having. And also, our parents first instinct is like,

oh my God, my child is hurt, have to make them feel better. Versus my child is hurt, we're gonna hold space for that and let them know, it's okay to be hurt. Right, and that's like a big difference between parents. And a therapist, a therapist is not gonna try to immediately put a bandaid on it, but it's like let's like really get in there. It's like the bandaid off

Let's see what's how bad is this wound like what happened to it like how do you even get the wound? You know what I mean? Oh the wound bring it back I think I forgot to close that loop, you know, we have wounds inside and we do all these things trying to heal them Ultimately if you don't heal that stuff, it will end up like bleeding out on other people. Other people, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I's like any feeling is contagious when you're with other people and when you're not well Other people feel that right so like I imagine a cloud over me. It's just raining You know have my boyfriend here. He's getting rained on and it's poured and I feel like it was almost my fault

Like I brought this into your life like you deserve this. I'm just I Really felt like I was bringing people down with me and they didn't need that. And that was another thing that led to why I did what I did. Everyone, everyone would be better off without me. So if you don't address the hell, I'm glad it's everywhere, you know. I think we're, we're touching on so many stuff that's very relatable to a lot of people. And I'm hearing using praises of how therapy's been helpful. Like, what would you say to someone that's like maybe in a similar headspace to where you were before of thinking like it's just not going to help? Anytime I've tried to open up to somebody,

it led to something worse for me. Any pieces of advice to give to someone that's still very skeptical, resistant, fearful of trying this thing? Number one, I would say, do not tell them how you think they should feel. So if you try to tell someone, they're gonna automatically tune you out. You're automatically disqualified. That's like, who are you to tell me? So just listen to them. Like listen to what they have to say.

And I wouldn't, again, put your opinions or your personal thoughts on it. For me personally, because I have been through it, I would just be there with them. And it's so powerful to me. Rather than, oh, you should do this, I would say we should go to therapy. Like, let me help you find somebody, because I didn't have that support. I didn't have someone who's going to hold my hands and help me find the help. So for me, I would just hold their hand and try to find somewhere to get them help that they're feel comfortable. And you're like, I'm just feeling like emotional because that's what you're doing here, right?

You're like figuratively holding the hands now of so many people by sharing your experience and being so open about all this stuff that you've been through and rehashing a lot of your own thought process from the past that weren't very healthy. Sometimes people just need permission. I don't know if that's from themselves or from other people to do something good and do something nice for themselves, nice for me.

And while your journey to therapy wasn't quite like, I'm going to do this for me today. You know, at some point you were choosing to keep going back. Yeah. Yeah. And would you ever do it again? Would you ever go back to me? I already know I'm going to go back to therapy, not because I'm depressed, but because I just need that extra helping hand. You know what I mean? I definitely think I'll to therapy, not because I'm depressed, but because I just need that extra helping hand, you know what I mean? I definitely think I'll need therapy for the rest of my life.

Not because there's something wrong with me or like I'm suicidal again or something like that, just because it really is helpful. What's helpful about it? It really helps you understand why you feel a certain way about a certain situation. And I know as I get older, maybe marriage or kids, I'll have those conflicts of like, I'm letting my child down.

I can't provide for them. And you know, that will probably stem from how I feel certain times today or how I can't provide for myself. And I know that probably will not be the case as I get older, but I'm sure therapy will help me understand that. So it's helpful for navigating life's life every day challenges, right?

Like we're all posed with a thousand decisions to make per day. And most of the time we're making those decisions largely on our own. And that's an interesting thing about therapy. It's not that your therapist is making further decisions for you, but helping you identify what decisions lie in there already. Like, you already know the answers and the truth to what life is. We all know that for ourselves, somewhere deep inside.

And I think therapy really helps us unlock this stuff that we've pushed down. You know, things like not having confidence or not believing in ourselves to make the right choices or not feeling worthy, not feeling adequate. It really makes it hard to listen to ourselves and to hear those deep down truths that already exist. Yeah, like you don't believe the truth at all. Like you can look in the mirror and be like, you're so ugly. Like I'll say it, like you're not ugly the truth at all. Like you could look into the mirror and be like, you're so ugly, like, I'm so sick, you're not ugly.

You know what I mean? But all truths are out the window. And like you don't even value your opinions. When you're dealing with like mental health issues. Yeah. So you mentioned you've experienced a depression, which does sometimes include feeling sad, but like how did depression manifest in your life?

Like what made you feel like this is the word I'm gonna use to describe how I'm feeling to other people. For somebody listening to this conversation, like that might be feeling depressed themselves, but they don't have the words to articulate that yet. Like what would you clue them into? Like how do you know that you're depressed? For me, I was very, very angry.

The moment I woke up, I just filled with so much rage. And it would be to the point where I just went to cry. And that's how angry I was. And obviously you're being suicidal. I don't wanna live, that's not normal. Like I just wanna end my life. And you're sitting there, have a pros and cons list, trying to think out like, okay, like,

why should I not do it? Like, that's not normal. And just constantly feeling worthless, like not feeling like you deserve to live. These I knew were not normal. I felt that way, like as a young child, it started with anger. That's why I can tell you it was it started with anger.

And that's insight because if you ask a therapist, how does depression manifest in youth, in small children, an anger is actually something that someone needs to assess for, temper tantrums, this like really dysregulated way of being, if you're waking up really pissed off every day, that's not normal. Yeah, and I definitely encourage parents,

because I see it a lot, like, if a child does act, I don't, all children act out, but if it's like a constant pattern, and you're punishing them, I think that's like the worst. I mean, no, take a moment, listen to your child's, try to have a conversation and understand why are they feeling this way? And you'd probably learn a lot about your child's, try to have a conversation and understand why are they feeling this way?

And you'd probably learn a lot about your child and realize punishing them, sending to the room, making it worse, essentially, it's not the way to go, but getting help. And it's probably the parent needs help too. It's a partnership between the child and the parent. Yeah. Some education around just emotions. How they creep up, like what they look like in kids. I mean, small kids especially like their primary language is not English or whatever language

it is where they're growing up. It's play. They understand the world through how they play, how they engage in a very active way outside of just verbal communication. So, yes, paying attention to kids' mood, so you paying attention to your own mood and recognizing something is not normal. Yeah, and if my mom was more aware and more educated about something like that, I probably wouldn't have grew up, way I did in certain ways.

Yeah, plenty of parents, they mean well, they really tried their best. This speaks to the importance of education around emotional intelligence and maybe incorporating a little bit more into standard curriculums at school, how to just tune into your feelings, your feelings affect your everyday life. I imagine many of us could have benefited if our moms were a little bit more aware about all this stuff. Yeah. I mean, the lab, but some people are really,

they're really are a clue this I should say. And I really think it's very helpful to start with children or even teenagers. I think that's really where it begins because that's where you start to become programmed to be a certain way. And you're gonna move out of your parents' house and you're gonna live your life, but yet you're still acting a certain way.

And like you don't realize it's coming from your childhood. Like you just think you're some like adults with an anger problem, or you're just like super depressed, like you don't even know why, and that will carry on with you if you don't recognize that you have a mental health problem. And therapy helped you in those ways of recognition and connecting the dots between what happens in childhood and how you're relating to other people now Thank you actually for opening up so much and sharing about your journey. It's really

You know just sitting and listening to you both have a discussion about The journey you've been on also hearing you open up about your feelings as someone who's in the room observing. It's actually really quite remarkable when you get to just be patient and listen to someone reflect on their own emotions because it encourages you to do the same for yourself. And so I know that, you know, to the hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people that would listen to this afterwards, I'm hoping that everyone who's listening and watching is also thinking about the questions that Hesu is asking, thinking about the ideas that you're mentioning and are gaining that self-awareness and that regulation of their emotions and the understanding of themselves, because it's strange to sit in on a conversation, I think most of the time we spend our time in conversations thingy, what am I going to say?

What should I say back to that person? And obviously as we see with her Sue, what she's doing is she's trying not to project her own feelings so that she can truly listen to you. And then I've just been silent for the last nearly 40 minutes, 45 minutes. And that's actually a really powerful practice, true, because now you're not sitting there thinking, what should I say or how do I sound or oh I can, I can relate or not relate, or judging, but I can just observe. And so I think this has been a really powerful practice even for me to just sit and listen and sit in here. I think it's just been a healthy conversation

to have a discussion about the benefits you've seen and the growth you've seen. And I think that's a great starting point for this series in just understanding the benefits you've seen and the growth you've seen. And I think that's a great starting point for this series in just understanding the benefits of therapy and someone who's committed to two years, two years, right? Someone who's committed to two years of therapy and the benefits they've seen some very happy with. The fact that everyone who's been listening

and watching has had the opportunity to sit in on a conversation with a therapist and see how where some of the questioning can go. And also to say with someone who has done therapy, who is able to articulate and explain their experiences, you know, clearly and concisely. I know there's a lot of people who are like me. I don't have a family to turn to. Or at the time, many friends, I didn't have a family to turn to, or at the time, many friends,

I didn't have a huge support system, so I really, truly felt very, very alone. So, to take those steps, it takes a lot of courage and I hope people listening really take away, like even though I am alone, like I don't have that support system, there's still hope for me, like I'm so worthy. And I hope, I really, I am alone, like I don't have that support system, there's still hope for me. Like I'm so worthy. And I hope I really, really, really, really hope that they do

their research and really find someone they they connect with. And I do not want them to just get discouraged if they get a therapist. And there's they're not connecting because not every therapist is going to be for you. And I think it's very, very important to find the one that that is for you. And I really just hope people who are listening really, really, really, really do receive the help that they need because there's nothing wrong or negative about therapy whatsoever. It truly is life changing and I do not regret it at all. I know I'm gonna do it again. And I'm so grateful for my therapist. When we were on the phone during the COVID times

and we were like saying, our goodbyes, you know, she's like, I'm so proud of you Ashley, like you really have come so far. And I just started crying because she really was almost kind of like that mother of yours that I never really had. And like someone who truly cared about me

and wanted better for me. Yeah. You're just crying so many like pinnacles of things that therapists learn about in grad school. Like, you know, psychologists love to label human behaviors with all kinds of words and stuff. But like the therapist becoming like a mother figure to you, that happens a lot.

It's what we call a corrective emotional experience. This person that is validating of you, that can listen to you nurture you, kind of show you what gentle love and acceptance looks like and feels like in a really controlled controlled safe setting. And it's not that like, you know, therapists are not set out to like become your new family. I think that by experiences that come through sessions can help someone recognize like,

I can create my own family, whatever that means to me. Like, the stuff that I feel like is supposed to come from family, which is love, acceptance, support. I can provide that to myself and I can learn how to do that with this other person that can model for me because unfortunately my mom didn't or whatever it is. Thank you both so much for helping us sit in on that conversation and to observe and learn and listen. I'm just really grateful for both of your honesty

and transparency and as if for guiding this conversation and, you know, asking really insightful, thoughtful questions to really extrapolate the learnings and I hope everyone who's been listening and watching back at home, you've felt you've got a bit more of an insight and we're going to be doing a lot of these episodes where we dive into different themes, have different conversations. Look at this from different angles. And I'd love to hear your feedback. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'd love to hear what you learned, what surprised you. Maybe, maybe something you didn't expect or maybe something that you felt reassured by. I genuinely love to hear from you so make sure you share your feedback in the reviews on Instagram, on Twitter, wherever else you're active. Please do let us know because I'm always looking out to see what is it that resonate with you, what is it that connected with you? And for those of you who don't know this episode was brought you

by BetterHelp, which is helping millions of people by making professional therapy more affordable and accessible than ever. And I have shared my own top three reasons why I believe everyone can try therapy. And to check that out, you can visit betterhelp.com forward slash J's top three. And so that's better, h-e-l-p.com forward slash J's, J-a-y- name t o p 3 and when you do that everyone who does that will get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up as well so that's for our on purpose listeners and so remember that you deserve to invest in yourself and better help is a great way to start to do that thank you so much to us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much Dansoo. Thank you to Ashley. Thank you. Thank you for joining me today. Hey Suo Joe's input is intended to be general and informational in nature. In case you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, please note this episode is not intended to aid in any diagnosis of mental health struggles in listeners. If you're struggling, please find a qualified professional to assess and help you with your personal journey. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender invisible things we don't usually talk about? I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days.

And all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by stellar guests like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Conquer your New Year's resolution to be more productive with the Before Breakfast Podcast. In each bite-sized daily episode, time management and productivity expert, Laura Vandercam, teaches you how to make the most of your time, both at work and at home. These are the practical suggestions you need to get more done with your day. Just as lifting weights keeps our bodies strong as we age, learning new skills is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. The world of chocolate has been turned upside down. A very unusual situation.

You saw this taxocasian in our office. Chocolate comes from the cacao tree and recently, Var Variety's cacao fought to have been lost centuries ago where we discovered in the Amazon. There is no chocolate on Earth like this. Now some chocolate makers are racing deep into the jungle to find the next game-changing chocolate, and I'm coming along. Okay, that was a very large cracker now.

Listen to obsessions while chocolate. On the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm not sure I could have. Listen to the obsessions while chocolate. On the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.