On Purpose with Jay Shetty - 3 Ways to Find Closure from Childhood Pain & How to Develop Healthy Coping Mechanisms For Everything Life Throws at You

Episode Date: October 28, 2022

Today, I'm joined by Haesue Jo, Licensed Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp, with years of experience providing individual and family therapy in community mental health. Her current clinical focus includes working with individuals with a variety of presenting problems, including anxiety, relationship and family issues, trauma, community violence, gender identity, and depression.It’s going to be a little different today as I take the client seat and get a first hand experience of what it’s like to be in a therapy session. This is Part 1 of a 2-Part special episode and we open the conversation by talking about my childhood experiences - how it affects my adulthood, the memories that may seem as passing but are actually traumatic, and how these can possibly lead to repression of painful memories. Haesue also helps uncover the challenges surrounding racism, bullying, identity crisis, teenage struggles, and finding your safe space and security.  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.What We Discuss:00:00:00 Intro00:03:36 Why therapists start with talking about childhood 00:10:22 How did you feel about school in general?00:16:26 Repression of painful memories 00:25:16 How do you feel about being othered?00:31:29 What I remember as a teenager00:35:04 Choosing to be understood than be liked00:42:59 Dealing with racism00:50:12 Did you want to understand bullies? 01:00:02 Can you change your identity?01:02:55 When you have some form of securityEpisode ResourcesBetterHelpDo you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on CalmWant to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeart Radio Amp Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart.

I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions. Like, can we create new senses for humans? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to inner cosmos with David Eagleman on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagleman on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

The world of chocolate has been turned upside down. A very unusual situation. You saw the stacks of cash in our office. Chocolate comes from the cacountry and recently Variety's cacao, thought to have been lost centuries ago, were re-discovered in the Amazon. There is no chocolate on earth like this. Now some chocolate makers are racing deep into the jungle to find the next game in the last centuries ago, where we discovered in the Amazon. There was no chocolate on Earth like this. Now some chocolate makers are racing deep into the jungle to find the next game-changing chocolate, and I'm coming along.

OK, that was a very large crack it up. Listen to the obsessions while chocolate. On the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. It's hard to think you need anything else. That's the only answer I can actually come up with is that's all I ever had was. Hey everyone, welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose. Thanks to our partners at BetterHelp for this episode.

Today I'm joined with Hesujo, licensed therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. BetterHelp would like me to mention the following trigger warnings, racism, bullying and relationships with food. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now, you're in the right place because I know you wanna be happy, I know you wanna be healthy, and I know you wanna heal.

And we have an incredible partner here at on purpose in BetterHelp. And if you were listening closely, you heard some of the incredible live therapy sessions we did on the podcast with two incredible guests who are so happy and open to be really vulnerable and share their truth and share their story. And I want to repeat how grateful and honored I am to have had that opportunity.

But today, I'm going to put myself in the hot seat. So I thought what better way to talk about therapy, what better way to discuss the power of therapy, then to put myself in that position. I recommend therapy to so much family, so many friends, so many people in my life, so many clients that I work with as well. And I wanted to show you that no matter how much you think you know,

how much you have gained, how much learning and self-work you have done Sitting down with someone who's non-judgmental sitting down with someone who has expertise in this area and sitting down with someone where in one sense they don't have a Response to the outcome they've a response to how you feel ever response to what you're going through Response to the outcome. They have a response to how you feel, they have a response to what you're going through can really be powerful and beneficial for anyone's life. And today I'm joined by the wonderful Hesu again, who is here last time with our incredible guests. And so Hesu, thank you for being here. Thank you for doing this again with me. Thank you for the opportunity and big thanks to better help for making this happen. So I guess I now have to officially hand over to you again. I have to stop being Jay Shetty,

the host and interviewer on this podcast, which I never do. This is a monumental historic moment for me on the show where I'm going, okay, I'm no longer a host, but I am a client and patient. That's exciting. I'm honored.

I'm trying to tell myself now the pressure is not on. I'm really grateful that you're opening up in this way and inviting people into who you are because I think that's going to be such a powerful way for people to get to witness what they might experience in a session themselves. Thank you. Yes, that's my hope. My hope is true for my external reason for doing this is that people will get a sense of what therapy looks like because I think we keep hearing about, oh, I went to therapy, or my therapist said this and people don't know what that means. And the internal reason for doing this is because I think I just genuinely love getting the opportunity to self-reflect and try and find if there's anything

else that I've missed or something that I haven't worked on. And so I think there's two reasons for doing this. It's not just, I don't want anyone to think this is performative or the idea of just showing you what it looks like. I'm genuinely doing it as I'm in this seat and I'm gonna open up and be honest, based on the questions that you have as I would in a therapy session.

All right, well, I'm glad we're here talking today about whatever it is that you'd like to get into. So a lot of times, I do start exploring with new clients, things from childhood, things from early life experiences. And a lot of people might wonder why therapists do that. So I think it's important for therapists to remember to explain these things. And that's called rationale, providing rationale as to why we're about to go into something. Even though some people might want to deny it or some people may not realize, so much of

our childhood ends up manifesting in the way that we communicate with other people in our adulthood, the ways that we connect with folks. And so it's really important for me as a therapist to start painting this picture of who you were then, because that little kid is still inside of you now. And that little kid whose needs are not being met now is going to start acting out in different ways, starting having different behaviors, different feelings that sometimes don't make any sense, really hard to understand. If you would like to, like whatever way that feels comfortable, could you tell me a little

bit about your childhood to start off? Yeah, it's so interesting isn't it? Even when I think about my childhood, I'm like, what do I remember and what do I not remember? What I guess have I chosen to block out or think about less versus what has kind of naturally been let go of and then what's very clear? And so I think when I think about my childhood, I think about childhood starting when I went to nursery,

went to school, so like four years old. I think I was when I started going to school. I think my most common memories are of being bullied at that age. And so bullying would include everything from being called names. I was one of the few Indian people in the school I went to, so people had hurtful names. I was quite overweight as a child, and so I'd always be teased about my weight and jokes of such. And then I was also trained by my parents to do well at school. So at home it was all about grades and exams and about doing well. But then I went to a school where that wasn't the number one priority in elementary school. We call it primary school in England. I think I was bullied for that

too. I was bullied for the fact that I tried. I was bullied for the fact that I would work hard or my homework would be done on time and things like that. And so there were so many different things I was getting bullied for. And the bullying started with words and names and things like that, but then it kind of evolved as we grow older into, I remember being like, we have, I don't know what you call them here and maybe it's the same thing, but we had like big bushes of stinging nettles. Basically, it's a plant where if you touch it, you'd feel like a negative reaction to it. I remember being pushed into this bush like repeatedly, and for no other reason, apart from the color of my skin, and from my weight or size, and then I remember being beaten up multiple times as well.

So I'd be at school, I'd be in the playground, I'd get beaten up at lunchtime, I'd get, you know, and that was a recurring thing. Like I don't remember that happening just once. I remember it happening again and again and again and I've probably never talked about it this openly or this much before. And my mom would have to come into school and kind of like

talk to the teachers and explain and try and you know she'd get upset with the way the teachers had handled it because we always felt like that kid would just be back in school the next day and my mom didn't feel happy with the justice system I guess in the school of how this was being taken care of. And I'm talking about being like seven, eight years old while this is going on nine, ten years old, all the way through till about probably like ten years old, I think this was going on. I'm sure there's more and I'm happy to unpack more, but I'm like, that's what I think of when I think of being a child, if that makes sense. Yeah, and it's interesting when somebody's asked, I think, to tell somebody else about

their childhood. Initially, the first things that come to mind are often very defining things that create some part of your identity. You mentioned something about, like, there's things. I remember, there's probably things I don't remember, things that maybe I've pushed away. And for this to be the first thing that comes to your mind makes me very sad. It makes me very sad for little J. You know, that's trauma. It's to experience trauma repeatedly over and over again. Little kids school is their world. School is shaping their world view and to live day in and day out being afraid of going into the place

that's supposed to be one of the safest places for school. I can see that turning into becoming an adult that feels like the world is unsafe, that people are untrustworthy. I cannot let other people in. I have to be very, very discerning about who I connect with because it sounds like folks that maybe you had attempted to connect with turned around and pushed you into stinging medals. I think at that time I just felt quite alienated in school. I wouldn't say it was people I was,

I didn't feel a sense of betrayal at that age. It was more just kids that I knew or didn't know. It was more neutral, let's say. But it kind of changed when somehow, like, I was like, considered the doorky-est overweight kid in school, like, that's how I was referred to. And then I became friends somehow with the toughest kid in school who no one would argue with. And I don't know why he became my friend till this day. I'd love to ask him his name's Ian.

And Ian and I became best friends. And we bonded over football, soccer and we bonded over just, I don't know what, I think that was it. I think it was as simple as like what football team do you support and then we supported the same team and so then that became my like, and I guess when you're that age, there's not much more to your personality. And so, but me and him became best friends and then all of a sudden, no one would want to fight with me because he was my best friend and he was really tough. When I said tough, I'd be like, he was sure and not like you wouldn't consider

him to be strong, but he was someone who just was extremely powerful. You would not want to get into a fight with him. And we became friends and then from that day, I felt far more protected and kind of safer because he was around and that he'd get involved if anyone was to cross the line. I'm glad that you had that moment of meeting someone so that sounds like the next years were not as brutal. Yeah, definitely. I mean, what do you, what do you remember about coming home after these days that you were just ostracized or picked on and even beat up?

Like you said, did you wanna go back to school the next day or like, how did you feel about school in general? Yeah, I think it's really interesting, you know? And when you were saying you were sad earlier, I was like, I don't genuinely have sad memories in the sense of, I think my mom, I felt so loved by my mom. And her values, or my parents' values of me doing

well at school were so ingrained that I actually remember, I remember being scared of going to school, for sure. And I remember not wanting to go to school every day because of this, for sure, that is definitely there. And I never missed a day, I would go back. So it wasn't that I actually took days off. I would go back the next day even when I was scared. I think my parents were very much like, schools about doing well, we'll take care of this. This doesn't, not that it doesn't matter in the sense that it's not important. It's that this isn't why you're there. You're not going

there for those people you're going there for your future. I think there was a lot of love for my parents, my home with my mom, especially felt extremely safe. Like I feel like she created like this really beautiful loving environment where I felt protected and even when I felt embarrassed.

There were times I felt embarrassed when your mom comes and saves the day at school. Like that's massively embarrassing as a kid. But now when I look back, I think I look back in that in a healthy way, where I'm like, oh no, my mom had my back. She always turned up. She never made me feel unloved. She never let me feel that me being overweight or a color of my skin was a disadvantage. And I think that's what was interesting is that when I think about my parents, they never made me feel that

the color of my skin was a disadvantage. They were just like, this is just who you are. So it wasn't a good thing or a bad thing. It's just this is who you are. And I think that at least helped me is what I can say. That helped me because I don't think that I ever saw myself as better or worse than people. I just saw myself as I am.

And so I think there were a lot of good values in there, maybe not even consciously for my parents, but at least ones that I feel I've extrapolated by reflection where I'm like, oh yeah, like, you know, my parents never said, oh yeah, they do that because we're Indian and they didn't tell me stories like that. Like my parents, I don't think my parents ever told me what they went through until I got older and I asked them. Like my mom and dad were both bullied for being Indian and my mom moved to London when she was 16 and so you know she went she went through a lot when she moved to London and so I don't even think they ever told me those stories so they didn't for me at least I feel they didn't reinforce what was going on.

Not that they thought what was going on was okay, but they were trying to defend me, the human, not me because I was overweight because of what color of my skin. So it wasn't like, oh, well, you need to lose weight. Or, you know, it wasn't those weren't the topics of conversation, if that makes sense. Resilience was being built for you at home with love, with presence, with support from your family. You even said that there's things that you were probably learning out of this, that they weren't making very explicit. And something I was thinking of is even like this thing of you're going back to school, because even though this difficult thing is happening, there's a reason and there's a bigger purpose. And there's something about your future that's important, and that's why you're going to keep going back. There's a big lesson in that

for all of us. It's even when something is very difficult, something doesn't feel good, something is scary. When there's this other meaning or this other reason to keep doing it, you must stir up something inside of you to continue to keep going. That is resilience and that's persistence. That's something that everybody needs, I think, to achieve whatever they want to. So it sounds like you are both struggling with something in a social sense with a lot of other kids, but also building something inside outwardly that a lot of people don't have the opportunity to really encounter. That feels right now. And of course, you can't, I wish I could go back and put myself in the mindset of that

day and be like, how did I feel that day? And I'm sure I felt scared and I'm sure I felt embarrassed. I'm sure I didn't feel like I do now. I'm like, I was developing resilience. I'm sure I don't, now I feel like that. But I'm sure when I was there that day, I just felt like this is the worst thing ever. I'm sure there were days like that, but I'm sure when I was there that day, I just felt like this is the worst thing ever. I'm sure there were days like that. They just, they just don't seem to be the thoughts that have stayed with me. I think the thoughts that I took away were just, you know, kids would mean,

it was a tough time. Definitely, there were some really tough days. I remember, this was a bit later on. I think we're in sixth grade just before you go to high school. And so I remember this is by the time I felt that I wasn't getting beaten up anymore, so at least the violence had stopped, right? Like the physical abuse had stopped, you know, coming over the black eye and like having your clothes ripped and stuff like that, like that definitely kind of been fun. I just, I almost can't even access how I felt at that time if I'm completely honest. Like, it feels like I'm talking about someone else. So does it bring your feelings for you now?

No, it's so distant. This is why I wanted to do this. It's like, I've always wanted to know, like, am I not excavating enough? Or like, it's so distant that it almost feels like I'm watching my own life. Like, I don't, I'm like, I don't even remember that happening to me, but I know it happened. Like, if that, I'm like, I don't even remember that happening to me, but I know it happened.

Like if that makes sense, like I remember it happening, I can talk about it, I can, I remember, even, I can visualize it, like while I'm talking to you, I can visualize exactly what my school uniform look like, exactly what I look like that day. Like I can remember that, but I don't have a strong sense of emotion attached to it. And I don't know how that happens.

Like how does that exist where I can remember the event, I can remember who beat me up, I can remember what it looked like, I remember most of how it ended up, I remember telling my mom about it, but I can do it almost without any sense of pain. And I don't know how that exists. Do you think that someone is supposed to feel a certain way with that kind of stuff and how are you supposed to feel? That's a great question. And I think I often struggle with that where when I look at previous struggles in my life

and I think I look at most of them the way I just explain to you now, I think sometimes I feel guilty that I don't feel bad about bad stuff that happened to me. But I don't. I just, not that I'm not saying it's okay or that I don't feel bad about bad stuff that happened to me. But I don't. I just, not that I'm not saying it's okay or that I condone it or that I definitely don't reflect this on to other people. And I think that's where I've, I don't look at it.

I never think, oh, I went through hard times and I'm fine so everyone should be fine. Obviously, I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing today if I felt that way. I sometimes wonder, I'm like, why don't I feel bad? And me and my best friend will often talk about this because he has a similar take on it. And we was asking ourselves that way. I sometimes wonder, I'm like, why don't I feel bad? And me and my best friend would often talk about this because he has a similar take on it. And we was asking ourselves that question, it's like, what's wrong with us? Like, why do we not feel worse about what we went through? Because a lot of people might feel worse. So I think, yeah, you're right. I feel,

I feel guilty sometimes. I'm like, well, maybe I should feel more pain because of what happened. Or sometimes I question, I'm like, am I just, am I closing myself off from it? Am I defending myself from a really bad trauma? Am I protecting myself from something I don't know? Like I lost those questions sometimes. And the answer doesn't go anywhere. And I'll, I'll like sit there and I'm like, no, I'm good.

I'm fine. I mean, some part of you seems to think that you are supposed to feel something different than you feel now. And I think the. I mean, some part of you seems to think that you are supposed to feel something different than you feel now. And I think the reality is like, you feel what you feel and sometimes you don't and sometimes you did feel something and you don't remember. And I'm understanding you're like, kind of wondering, did I feel something and I just pushed it away if that's the reality?

If that's the reality, we may never know, right? Like, I don't know of the technology yet to be able to access something like that in a mental time travel type of thing. But I think even now, when we think about repression of memories or the avoidance of painful past, these things are coping mechanisms. Even if we're not consciously aware of this stuff happening, it makes sense for a very powerful psyche to try to protect us from something. And you know, if you and your best friend,

example, for as an example, are now reliving a painful memory and those feelings on a constant basis, would you be able to do anything, accomplish anything? Like those that are sulking in the pain of yesterday are often the ones that are unable to propel themselves towards something better for today and tomorrow. It's very evident that you're doing very well for today and tomorrow all the time, not just for you, but for so many other people. If anything, it seems like a protective factor, maybe that you're not really aware of,

to separate yourself from the feelings that you probably may have experienced at that time. We, as people, are so interesting in that way, because we remember some stuff and don't. And some things, we think we don't remember, but then something triggers a memory. Like, somebody mentions something, and I'm sure we've all had that experience. Like, oh my God, I haven't thought about this thing in so long, but you just unlocked something. So I don't think we necessarily need to live our lives like searching for all the things to unlock the past. That's helpful. Yeah. Especially if our present moment is still something that we're thriving in, something that we're able to share good things with other

people with. So that's helpful. That's very helpful. That's very reassuring. I think a lot of people, I often talk to people about the difference between thinking and overthinking. And I think there is something to be said for like that overanalysis, the overthinking of trying to find something. And it's like, well, I can't. I can see connections in how being bullied led to me definitely at an early age becoming more empathetic. Like I saw myself wanting becoming more empathetic. Like I saw myself wanting, I really got upset or would feel other people's pain early on

if someone was being bullied around me. So I could deal with it, but it's if we were sitting in a group and someone was bullying you, I would be very protective of you and I would sense that very early because I could tell how this person felt towards you and then I would be like, oh, I wouldn't want to go through that.

And then I would stand up for the person or I would try and get involved in some way because I think I just, I know what it felt like to be called names. I know what it felt like to be beaten up. I know what it felt like to have the hurt at that time. And I realized just how sad it was. Because yeah, the story I was about to tell you was, so I remember in sixth grade or fifth or sixth grade, I came in late to school, maybe I had a doctor's appointment

or maybe I was running late with my mom, I can't remember, and I was late. And there was this one girl in our class that everyone had a crush on, right? Sixth grade crush. Everyone, I still remember her name, I still, I remember, I remember how she looked. Like it's just so clear, that's the kind of stuff

I can remember. It's we all had a crush on her in sixth grade. And all the guys had a crush on her and we would talk about how we all had a crush on her. But I would never talk about it too much because I knew she was out of my league. Right? It was that kind of like feeling as a kid. Oh, anyone who's listening by the way, if you're not watching, I was doing quotation marks

around outside of my league. So I would never talk about that, but all the guys knew. And then this day I came in late to school. Everyone was like looking at me weird. The girls were laughing, the guys were laughing. And then I was wondering what was going on and obviously the teacher's speaking so I can't ask friends, I can't talk in class.

And then my friend writes me a note and he's on the note, it said, oh, we told her that you like her. And so like not only was she told that I liked her, she was told that I was the only guy who liked her in school. And so none of the other guys owned up to this crush. It was only that I was put out there. And I remember, and this was painful for sure.

And I often look to this moment for so much courage. And I think I almost used these events as like, I went through that when I was that age. I can do a lot of stuff today. I remember like, I played, I was playing football again, and football was, I think football was my first love. So it kind of turns up in so many of my stories. And I was playing goal.

I was never allowed to play on the field because I wasn't mobile or agile enough compared to all the other kids as they thought. So I'd be in goal. And the girls stood behind the goal that day and just called me names for like an hour of lunchtime. And I remember them saying things like, oh, you're so aware of a way I can't believe you think

that not she's in your league, but that kind of thing. Like, can't believe you think you could have got her and that kind of ends. And that, when I talk about that, that definitely makes me feel sad. I'm like, yeah, that was painful. Like that's a memory that I do have emotion attached to. And I'm like, yeah, that felt really, really tough

because, whoo, like, it's your first crush. I think she's the first girl I've ever had a crush on in my life at the time. And then to be feeling like, I didn't even want her to know. I knew she wasn't in my league. I knew she wasn't. You were trying to prevent this happening. I was like, I know't even want her to know. I knew she wasn't in my league. I knew she wasn't. You were trying to prevent this thing. I was trying to prevent this happening.

Yeah, I was like, I know that she's far more prettier than I am and cuter than I am and all that stuff. I'm already aware of that. And the last thing I needed to be caught out for that. So that definitely telling that story actually has more pain in it than talking about getting beat and up or the racism actually, so. Yeah, I was experiencing the second hand embarrassment

for you, like, oh God, like that's what you didn't want happening. This experience is like out of your league thing, I think it's like, you quoted one of these kids behind you, like you think you had a chance, it's like, no, I didn't, that's why I didn't want to say anything. Yeah, I knew I didn't have a chance. Right, right.

I knew I didn't have a chance. And I would say I actually felt pretty confident about who I was before teenage,'t have a chance. Right, right. I knew I didn't have a chance. And I would say I actually felt pretty confident about who I was before teenage, before becoming a teenager. And I'd say actually when I got into my teens, that's where I became less confident. I think up until my teenage years, it was like I was a good student, I worked hard,

I was a good son, you know, I can not check all those things off. And I was like, yeah, my identity is very secure. You're sure of those things for God's sake. I was more of those things. So regardless of all this other stuff, I was like, but that is a matter, like the goal of life at that age

was not to get this girl to like me. Like that wasn't the goal of life. The goal was to get into a good high school. Like I guess the training of the conditioning of my parents was you're only here to get into a good high school, to do well in school. And so I think I was so busy with exams and homework and studying really, really hard that I didn't really think anything else was important at the time.

I had enough good friends as time has gone on like a small group, but I had enough friends that I think got me through it now and I look back then. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy. What was seen as a very snotty city, people call it bozangeless. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Friends' newdom, and not lost is my new travel podcast,

where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. Where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party, it doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Cholala who is aggressive towards strangers. I love the dogs. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes,

but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling, but I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much... I love you too. My life's a lot of therapy goes behind that.

You're so white, I love it. Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is what it sounds like inside the box car. I'm journalist and I'm Morton in my podcast City of the Rails. I plunged into the dark world of America's railroads searching for my daughter Ruby who ran off to hop train. I'm just like stuck on this train, not where I'm going to end up and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society, off the grid and on the edge.

I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom, this community. No one understands who we truly are. The rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom. Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die, or you can have this incredible rebirth and really understand

who you are. Come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to city of the rails on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads.

On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions, so we can better understand our lives and our realities. Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or, can we create new senses for humans? Or, what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet?

So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagleman, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, you had a support system. You had these factors in your life to kind of outweigh any of the negative stuff you had been going through.

I keep thinking of this like this overarching theme of being othered. This is a term a lot of people are talking about these days. So what does that mean to you? What is it to be othered? What does it mean to me now? What does it mean to me then? No.

Now when you said that, the first thing that came to my mind I was like, yeah, of course, that's my strength that I'm othered. When the first thing that came to my mind when you said that, I was like, yeah, that's why I love being, I love being othered. Like, now, I love being different, and I love being unique.

I've realized very much in the past few years that I've sat with this idea for a long time. I think that root of that is, I've always wanted to be understood. More than even liked or more than validated, which I think, and we can talk about that maybe another time or whatever, but I think that I worked on when I became a monk in terms of being liked and validated. But I think I've always craved to be understood because I've had, I consider myself to be someone of, I always said to everyone,

like the only credit I will give myself is that I consider myself to be someone of, I always say to everyone, the only credit I will give myself is that I consider myself to have pure intentions. Like that I will hold my hand on my heart. I'm a good person, I want good things for people. I think about good things. I don't have any agendas. I'm not trying to manipulate. It's not who I am, because I've had my mom raised me.

So I have pure intentions. And so because of that, I really have found it for years very hard to be misunderstood by people. Some like, I wanted you to win. Like, I only want good things. So if someone thinks otherwise, I had an episode the other day where someone, who I don't know very well,

but again, I made the false assumption that they should know me because of people we both know and how much those people respect me or have a connection with me. I assume that they would understand that too and they were feeling a bit of uneasiness about trusting me on something and that really upset me. I said to them that my trust in my integrity is all I have. That's what I carry myself on. And so for you to think otherwise, upset me. So I guess when I hear other,

now I'm like, I feel to me it means to be misunderstood and not even given a chance to be understood. And now when I reflect on it, I actually realize I don't think anyone will, I'm not sure. I haven't yet come to an understanding of whether anyone has the power to fully understand anyone. It's so hard to understand ourselves. And I think, often I hoped people would understand me. but even if I walk into this conversation, I'm like, you're a therapist, you should understand me. Fully, I think that's a lot of pressure

on another human being. And I think even if I told you every detail of my story, point by point, I still don't think someone could fully understand me because it's so big. And so to me, today, I see being othered or the word other is like a strength. Because I go, yeah, I am different.

And yeah, othered is what led me on this unique path. And othered is what led me to take risks. Maybe if I felt a part of the crew always, I wouldn't have become a monk. And then I wouldn't have quit being a monk to work in the corporate world. And then I wouldn't have quit being in the corporate world to follow my passion and pursue my purpose to share wisdom with others.

Like, I've just constantly taken so many risks in my life. And I've constantly felt otherd every time I took the risk, because how many 22-year-olds were becoming monks and how many 29-year-olds were quitting their safe job to pursue their passion. And so otherd, becoming other that has become my strength now. Now, that's how it feels now today. You had asked me, am I asking you about how I feel about it now or back then.

So tell me, how did you feel about it back then? Completely opposite, right? What's the difference? Yeah, like back then, if I talk about being odd that it's like you feel left out, you feel like the loosering school, you feel like the loner, I felt, you know, I remember now this I probably never barely think about this, but my mom would often make me pack lunch and all my friends would

eat school dinners. And if you ate pack lunch, you'd sit separately to the kids who ate school dinners. You weren't allowed to sit together. Wow, great school idea. Yeah. And not many people ate pack lunches in my school. Most people ate school dinners. And so I would sit alone during lunch. And then my food would smell different

because it was often Indian. People would look at it and point fingers and be like, what's that? That's so good. Yeah, that kind of vibe. I used to hide my food and eat it. And I actually think, it's self-right, I've never drawn this thing, but I think I have it today.

I used to eat my food really quickly. And that's been a habit. I've had, it's so fun. I've never drawn this thing, but I think I have it today. I actually eat my food really quickly. And that's been a habit I've had to untrain so hard, because even in my adult life, I've always eaten really quickly. And when my wife sees me and she's massively into diet and I radiate in nutrition. And so she's eating slowly and being present, and fine for in food.

When I was a monk as well, it was one of the tough things, because mindful eating was such a big practice. But I've noticed that I've always been a fast eater, and I wonder whether I actually developed that back then, where I was like, I didn't want anyone to see what I was eating. And so I almost have to,

my wife was sometimes seeing me eating, she was like, what's wrong with you? Like, you eat as if, you know, you're not gonna get another meal. Like, you eat so fast. And that's my earliest memory of eating fast because I didn't want people to see what I was eating. And that's the quicker I eat it,

the less I'll get judged for it. And so that othering was not, I didn't look at that and go, oh, that's cool. Right, especially at that age, for whatever reason, I think like so much of us feel hardwired to wanna belong to be part of the group, to find acceptance with others. It's almost like this whole childhood experience may have impacted your relationship with food.

You mentioned being overweight, and I imagine there's just so much going on with that. Especially with kids, you're eating certain amounts of food at school. It's a little bit controlled. It's outside of school that's affecting all of that. So there is a stark difference here of your experience with other at that time in your experience now. Do you recall like one that shift happened and what contributed to that? I think also for a long time in my physical health, I felt that if I was skinny, I was healthy.

I think a lot of people believe that. Yeah, that idea, which was a terrible idea, right? Like, that's not true at all. And so, yeah, I think as long as I'm skinny, I'm healthy. And then when I went through some health issues, I was like, oh, like, that wasn't the right metric to be looking at. But for so long in my teens, that was the metric that I held on to because that's the only metric that I had for health.

My friends always wanted me to be healthy, but I don't think we talked about health in a healthy way necessarily. When I married my wife, that was far more the transition from the food point of view where I think food became healing and healthier when I married her, which is only six years ago. Up until that point, I don't think I had

the healthiest ideas about food and how I can be healing. But when you were saying when did that shift happen? I think what's really interesting is that even though I sound very confident in being a kid, when I became a teenager, it kind of flipped the other way where it was like, now all that matter was validation. Now all that matter was fitting in. Now all that matter was fitting

in. Now all that matter. So that's what I was saying that I almost went from being confident in who I was, even through all this hardship, then to almost throw it out the window when I became a teenager to be like, I wasn't confident in who I was. What I remember of being a teenager was, I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be approved of, I wanted to be validated, I didn't like being other day, I hope that people would see me as a part of the group. And I think that's what led me towards getting involved in a lot of the wrong circles, because that was more considered cool and interesting. And now you weren't being left out, it was almost like you were the one to keep up with

because you were doing the risky stuff or the stuff you're not allowed to do. That's still socially acceptable. They're still socially acceptable. Yeah, it's like the mystery was what made you more interesting. And so even though I felt so uncomfortable with drugs or smoking weed or getting into fights or any of that stuff, I would hang around

those circles because I felt that validated me or made me more interesting at the time, if that makes sense. And so now I didn't want to be left out for being the loser. I was so scared of that that I was willing to do things that were completely out of alignment with my values in order to be liked. And that was very uncomfortable, I think. That was really tough because you're then constantly living in a state of fear of what if they figure out this isn't me.

It's you're scared of the group you're in and then you're all so scared because you're not living a life that's authentic to you. So you've almost got two fears of what if I get found out by all these cool kids that I'm not that cool? And I'm scared because I actually don't want to have a fight today, but I have to because that makes me more interesting somehow, which sounds ridiculous. Makes sense to a 17-year-old. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

This feeling of being scared, this is like kind of the first time you're recalling a feeling, right? You even said that a lot of your childhood experiences, you can't remember feeling anything. And even when you recall them, you don't feel much about it. But this thing, you remember feeling scared.

And you say, now with good reflection, these are the things I think I was scared of. Do you think 16, 17 year old, you understood what you were scared of, and if so, what was it that you were scared of? No, no, definitely not. I think at that time, I was just scared of being left out. I was scared of being seen as a loser.

I was at primary school, I guess. Like, I think that was it. It was like, I didn't want to be that it's like, you know, I think that was it. It was like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to be that kid anymore. Because what happens to kids like that? What happens to losers? You get bullied more, you get, you know, and I did in the earlier stages, so I lost weight around 15 years old.

And so I'd say even in high school, like 11 to 15, I was still bullied for the same reasons. I remember like in high school we started swimming. I went to an old boy school, which everyone has their own views about that stuff. I personally loved the school I went to for high school in hindsight. When I was there I'm not sure, but I'm very grateful I went there.

It's a fantastic school and I definitely have such a great relationship with this school. I remember a few memories quite vividly of like not being able to, we weren't allowed to use the steps to get out the swimming pool at school. And I couldn't get out. I was like, pushing myself out of a pool. And I remember like being bullied for that when I was like 11 or 12 years old,

again, because of my size and weight. And then I remembered, you know, you're in a changing room now with a bunch of dudes and you're playing rugby, which was our school sport. And like, you're taking it to the top off and people are laughing at you for how you look and all of that kind of stuff. And so, I think to me, I'd actually started high school where I left off. And I think when I naturally started to lose weight when the bullying stopped, I was like, all right, I need to hold on to this now.

It's almost like things are turning in our favor if that makes sense. So I started to feel like, oh, now I could be one of the cool kids and that would save me from the pain and the stress that I went through as being a loser or being, you know, a loser, again, quotation marks, because I didn't want to be that anymore.

I think I'd suffered for so long. It's almost like that's what I felt then, was I was like, we've been through this for enough time. It gets now time to not be that. And we're going to do whatever it takes to not be treated that way. Because you used so much of whatever it was that got you through it the first time. It's like, no, thank you. Don't need to do that again.

Yeah, don't want to go through it again. And it was harder when you're older. And it was harder with kids who had more than a couple of mean words. And it was harder when I wasn't going to beat and up at this time. But it was harder when I guess you were older and you could process it more, I guess.

Like almost like being a kid. Maybe I wasn't processing it as long. Yeah, processing it differently sounds like it's always been very valuable to you for people to understand you. And now in your like later in your life, I'm hearing that like being understood is more important than being liked. So in that I'm guessing for you, you'd rather that somebody seeks to understand you. And then they can decide whether they like you or not. That's now, that's today.

I think, well, now I've realized, I don't think most people have the time to understand anyone, but I think at that time, I wanted to be liked. At that time, I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be popular, I wanted to be validated at the time at school because I just dealt with the opposite for so long, right? I think I was exhausted.

My resilience almost, if I had any resilience of that age, my resilience was exhausted. I was done being resilient. I was like, this is too hard now. Like this can't be the next, you know, seven years or whatever it is. So I think that led me to a lot of bad decisions because I was just craving people's approval

during my teens. And you become someone you don't wanna be when you're craving approval from people I was just craving people's approval during my teens. And you become someone you don't wanna be when you're craving approval from people that aren't aligned with your values. And that's all I did. It was almost like I didn't wanna be seen as the good kid anymore.

I didn't wanna be seen as the kid who did well at school. I didn't wanna be seen as the kid who performed perfectly. Like I remember when I went to school at 11, my goal was to be head boy. Head boy was this role. I don't know what you have in the US. Not that, but I learned of head boy in Harry Potter. Yeah, exactly.

There we go. Harry Potter is the British reference to America. Okay, that makes sense. I love Harry Potter, so that makes sense. But yeah, that was the idea. Like my goal at age 11, this is how much of a Cortescha Magdork I was was the idea. Like my goal at age 11, this is how much of a... Cortescha Magdork, I was at the time, like the idea was, I wanted to be head boy when

I went to school. And when I was 16 years old at school, the last thing I would have wanted to be was head boy, because I thought it was the most uncool thing to be. And so it's like, that's how much I'd switched my values. And I lived out the latter of that where we had multiple roles where, again, I think Harry Potter has this, but we had multiple roles in school where you had head boy, you had prefects who were like these, right? Like you have all this kind of like, you know, and I didn't even get pretty much every

and in my year made it to like some level. And I was one of three kids out of 180 that had no standing in that structure. I was avoiding it. I was avoiding it. I was avoiding it so hard that it completely got the other way and now when I'm reflecting on that it was exactly that that I completely traded. I guess I now when I'm looking at it it was like to me I was like pivoting my values to figure out what they were and they definitely I wasn't now I wasn't happy with the values that I got through primary school with.

I wasn't. I was like, I don't want to be the good kid who always behaves, who always gets good grades, who then gets bullied for getting those good grades, who then experiences racism for getting those good grades. Like, that can't be life. And so let's do the opposite. Let's do everything wrong because there are only two options, and that must be the way. Yeah, like why would somebody keep doing this thing

that they're thinking is the reason behind being ostracized or punished? Exactly. So when you asked, what do you feel about being other, that I'd actually say that I didn't feel comfortable being othered. And so I traded everything that made me feel othered, only to feel othered the other way,

where now that I was breaking rules, there were also lots of kids going like, why are you doing this? What's wrong with you? Like, why do you need to always, you know, do something extreme to stand out? And I was like, oh, this doesn't work either. Okay. Stream efforts to calibrate, try to figure out where you fit in this world. Totally.

Yeah. I definitely wasn't happy as a teen in that sense. I think it was hard for me to make real friends because the kids that I wanted to be friends with who'd be considered good kids, their parents didn't want them spending time with me because I was the bad influence. The kids that I did spend time with that my parents wouldn't want me spending time with,

they never respected you because you were always having to do something more stupid or more ridiculous to gain everyone's respect. So that was in friendship either. Like you didn't feel safe around those kids because those kids always made you feel inferior unless you were gonna do the next difficult thing. Mm-hmm.

It's like you're there to perform a little monkey. Totally. And then you don't feel safe around the kids who are well-behaved or whatever because they somehow doubt that you're the person their parents want you to be around. Yeah. So it's kind of like you don't feel, again, you feel, other, even at the other extreme. So it's like I'm not cool enough to be with the bad kids. And again, I don't want to put labels on bad kids and good kids, but I'm just using it

as overarching terminology. But you know, you're not cool enough to be around kids who break the rules, but you're not enjoying being well-behaved enough around the kids who do well, if that makes sense at school. Yeah, and a lot of what you're describing, I think, is like universally relatable to lots of youths. It doesn't matter what country you grew up in, but a lot of these dynamics end up showing up in school. On top of that, you've mentioned this a couple times and we haven't really gotten into it, is racism, experiencing racism as such a small child, not really probably

being able to process what's even happening or understanding what that's like. So as you reflect on it now as an adult, can you tell me a bit about that experience? Yeah, I think there were days growing up where, and this was very subconscious. I can only probably think about this now, but I think I grew up, and they were definitely from completely honest. There were probably days where I wished I wasn't Indian,

because people made fun of people with Indian accents. I was born and raised in London, so I don't know if I've lived in the States for the last six years, so I have somewhat of a British New York LA mix of whatever my accent sounds like now. But yeah, I just didn't think people thought Indian people had a identity or a... I think reduced to something. Totally, yeah. And so I've spoken to my American friends about this. It's like almost like

when you watch The Simpsons, you see a a poo and then I remember the first time I went to a barbershop when I came to LA and I wanted to get my hair cut and The lady at the barbershop was really confused by my accent and how I spoke based on how I looked and she was like Where are you from and I was like I'm from London and she was like oh like I Literally thought everyone who looked Indian like spoke like a poo. Like that was her literal statement to me. That's an LA, and I moved to LA four years ago. This is a nice-

I feel recently- Yeah, this is like decades ago. And I was like, wow, and there was a part of me that had that feeling growing up where I didn't think being in Indian, these are again my teens. I didn't think being Indian was a strength again my teens, I didn't think being Indian was a strength or was, I saw as a weakness, I don't have a very confident answer on that, but yeah, there were parts of that and it's so fascinating to me now and I look at it, I'm like, you know,

India's wisdom became like my heart and soul and you know, spending time in India and my monkhood and it's so fascinating to think that there were so many contradictions in my life. And I almost go in the direction that contradicts what I'm feeling at the time, only to discover more depth in that pursuit. Now, I consider the wisdom I gained from the Eastern literatures to be one of the greatest gifts in my entire life. It's just interesting connecting the dots. I've always found connecting the dots at multiple stages in my life very interesting.

I'm Mungisha Tikhler and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention. Because maybe there is magic in the stars if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast.

Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop. But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world can crash down. Situation doesn't look good, there is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too.

Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, fall in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the Psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more, to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences, incredible

guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about from the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg, now streaming on the iHot Radio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. I'm Yvonne Gloria. I'm Mateo Radio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever, you get your podcasts. I'm Eva Longoria. I'm Mike DeGolmes-Rachon.

We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Corner flower.

Both. Oh, you can't decide. I can't decide. I love both. You know, I'm a flower tortilla flower. Your team flower? I'm team flower. I need a shirt.

Team flower, team core. Join us as we explore surprising and lesser known corners of Latinx culinary history and traditions. I mean, these are these legends, right? Apparently, this guy Juan Mendes, he was making these tacos wrapped in these huge tortillas to keep it warm, and he was transporting them in a burro hence the name the burritos.

Listen to Hungary for history with Yvonne Gloria and Mate Gomez Rejón as part of the Michael Tura podcast network available on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Connecting dots, like fully embracing something that you previously rejected as part of, you know, understanding of yourself it sounds like. I'm feeling like it wasn't like when you were a kid that you were overtly thinking and absorbing it as, these people don't like me because I'm Indian.

It's more just, they have an idea of what an Indian is supposed to be and I don't wanna be that. Correct. I guess that in them teenage ages, it's like, what can I mold myself to that everyone would like? I think it was as simple as that, right? It was like, what will everyone applaud? And like I remember being a class clown

and doing stupid stuff as a class clown because that got the approval of my peers. And now when I look back, I would never do something like that. Yeah, and I think that all started to change definitely when I became a monk because when I started spending time with monks, because I went from almost being confident in my parents' identity in up to 10 years old, to then rejecting my parents identity and trying to be everything everyone wanted to be,

to then choosing to become a monk, which was the most random thing to become purely because the most inspirational and interesting person I'd met by the time I was 21, 22 was a monk. And that was the reason it was like, this person's figured out life. They're confident. They are happy. They are content. And they found it through being a monk.

And they're helping other people. Those all seem like good values, right? Like when I talk about why I became a monk, it was I loved meeting someone who had focused on mastering envy and ego and jealousy and comparison and like he was a person who was talking about how that's what you learned being a monk. And I was like, well, that makes sense because none of those things have served me. And I remember thinking that at 18, when I first met him, I was like, yeah, like comparing myself to others, feeling envious, having an ego, like none of those things have helped me, and they don't seem like useful things.

And then he was talking about how talent and skills and gifts were to help people, and that life was about serving people, and life was about improving other people's lives. And I was like, I think that resonated with me too, because I guess I'd seen people have painful lives. That made sense, and so I was like, all right, I won that. And I think when I first started my monkhood, I even redirected the validation to the monks.

So it was almost like I went from wanting my parents' validation to wanting all my friends' validation to then wanting the monks' validation. Which I imagine monks would say, like, this is not what you're here for. Absolutely, yeah. And that's why it was the best shutdown because your parents will validate you for doing what they said, right? They pretty much will, parents will generally say,

yeah, good, well done. Your friends never validate you and make you feel inferior. And then it's like the monks teach you how to validate yourself and what that means. And so I think that those three years, I learned the habits and the steps to like, what does it mean to validate myself? And I think when I had to leave,

that's when I really learned to validate myself because now I couldn't seek anyone's validation because I just lived the randomness life. And no one could say to me, yeah, you're on the right path because it was such a random path lived the randomest life and no one could say to me, yeah, you're on the right path because it was such a random path to go from university to the monkhood, to the back, to reality. And so I think that was the moment where it clicked for me that the only person who could reassure me was me. And I think that was really tough being othered again. Because the othering then was, before I became a monk,

it was you're never going to get a job again. You're never going to make money again. No one's ever going to marry you. This is the worst decision. You're letting your parents down. You wasted their investment in your education. To then coming back to, we told you so. We knew you would make it as a monk.

You wasted your life. You know, three years old, didn't you see that friend of yours? They just bought a new car, they're getting a mortgage on a house, like, you know, and you come back to that and you're like, oh, wow, I'm out of place again. And so I think now I've just got so used to being out of place that it's become my place.

And I enjoy it now. I love being out of place. This journey to Monkhood, you listed some things about this inspirational, influential person that you met as a young person. And it's like, that's what I wanna be. Or at least it's like, I don't wanna be him, but I just wanna be someone.

I didn't wanna be him, and I failed. I can't, he's so amazing, he's incredible. Yeah, it sounds like that journey turned into from I wanna be want to be him and I failed. I can't. He's so amazing. He's incredible. Yeah, it sounds like that journey turned into from, I want to be him too. I want to be someone that I want to be. Yes. And those things you listed, like somebody that is not comparing themselves to others, like all these things, that stuff, I think, often is what leads people to bully other people. So I wonder if there's like some piece of you

that wanted to understand the bullies? Yeah, I definitely, I've never been a bully in my life for sure. Like that is never something I became. And even when I'm talking about being a class clown or things like that, I was never, maybe I bullied teachers a bit. So yeah, so I was a bully, but not bullied to kids, which is even worse.

I feel so terrible. I feel terrible saying that. Yeah, I bullied, yeah, we used to be, yeah, a class clown. It's a bully of teachers, but I didn't bully the kids. There doesn't make any better, but it's, and then now I have good relationships with all those teachers, which is their, their kindness to me. I went back and apologized to everyone when I learned that I'd messed up. And thankfully, I think most of those teachers have forgiven me and kind of didn't take it. They didn't take it seriously as I made it out to be, which was really kind of them and nicer them as well.

Like they were just like, yeah, you were a kid. Like, it's fine. But I think I definitely felt at one point that I had to go back and apologize and just not feel like my actions were justified just because I was a kid. You had just mentioned that this inspirational person, right, or totally is a kid. You had just mentioned that this inspirational person had all these qualities, right? And it's like, I was thinking while you were saying that's like, well, those are some of the things that lead people to bully others, right? Is like comparison stuff and just like the feelings

that they have about themselves or not about themselves. And it's like, what do you think of the bullies, I guess, now that you've reflected so much on yourself? What about these people that caused your suffering? Do you think about them? And this is one of those things I feel bad about as well. Like, it is something that I don't talk about it because I feel bad about it.

It's like, I've just always been a very naturally forgiving person since I was a kid. Like, I don't find forgiveness hard. And that's annoying sometimes because you can annoy people I love too, because I can kind of move on and get on with stuff and understand that people didn't have, I kind of contextually will figure out what they didn't have. Again, forgiveness doesn't mean I allow bad things to happen around me or to people I love.

I don't mean in that way. I mean that I've never been one to hold grudges. It's just not how I'm built and not how I'm wired. And so I don't think I wanted to understand the bullies. I think I wanted to help heal the bullies. Like, or just I wanted to help heal myself and I wanted to help heal others. And I wanted the skills to do that because I just saw so much pain for no reason. I think that's how I've always felt. I feel like most conflict and most pain is based on such insignificant irrelevant desires and emotions in the sense of, you think about why people fight with each other or even at a grand scale,

like why people do bad things. It's deep trauma or it's deep issue for them for sure, but it's something that could have been helped if given the right support. And so there's a part of me that just believes that I just didn't want people to have to make bad decisions just because they didn't, I made bad decisions in my life not because I was a bad person,

but because I didn't have good information. So I was like, if we gave people with bad experiences and bad parenting and bad childhoods, good tools and good skills and good experiences, then maybe they could avoid repeating that. And I think that's what I saw in the monks where it almost felt like data renewed or they'd regenerated where they weren't carrying the weight of their past either. And I'm not saying that about every month in the world. I'm just saying the ones that, the couple of people that I, you know, everyone in the monk who is also in hospital

in the sense that they're also all improving. It's not that you're perfect if you're there, but the few people that I'd seen it, gone the distance, gave me faith that they were happier and more content than the person who's got the fancy job in my city and still feels insecure. It was almost like seeing, I think it was more that I was seeing that the method of, I think by 18, I had seen people perfectly follow the academic system to get into a school, to do a degree they didn't want to do.

And I'd seen friends be extreme, take risks, make mistakes, get into trouble, potentially end up in jail or something of that. And so it's like, I'd seen the polar opposites of like, here's a kid who does everything wrong, who's ended up here. And here's a kid who does everything right and they're not up here. And he is a kid who does everything right and they're not happy either. So then how does that make any sense?

Like the person who's ended up in prison or in trouble who's all got kicked out of school is not happy. And the person who's just got access to the best college in the country is not happy. Like how does that make sense? And I think that's where I was like, and this guy's happy. Like what how does that make sense? And I think that's where I was like, and this guy's happy. Like, what is he figured out?

And he's done something completely different, right? He's not followed the status quo, and he's not, he's broken the status quo, but in an interesting way. And I don't think that that is only gained by being a monk, but it's an interesting idea that fascinated me was, I didn't wanna follow the rules and I didn't wanna break the rules.

I wanted to find a way to not have rules or find better rules or create my own rules. Or just like look for freedom of authenticity. You mentioned something about like, I wasn't able to live authentically and something deep inside of you wanted that.'re it sounds like really your whole life is about or has been about like identifying something that's desirable or undesirable and either fully embracing or fully rejecting it in order to get closer to this place of just feeling at peace. While

this seems very important to you, while being able to help other people and prevent any pain and suffering for them in whatever ways that I can, and it seems like the bullying, the racism, the ostracizing, all these things that you experience as a child, it's still with you now. You don't want others to suffer because suffering doesn't feel good.

And it seems like you took your suffering and turned it into something that's like really impactful. I would hope so. And I think I did that since I was young with my parents. I've listened to my parents about their challenges and their issues. And I'd sit with pretty much everyone since I was a kid and hear them out and you know walk them through it. And I think for a long time until I became a monk, I never had time for my own problems in one sense because you're already always dealing with other people so that's not smart. But yeah, I think you're right.

I think there was a long time in my life where I definitely want to end optional pain. Mm-hmm. Or optional pain. It's what you talk about. Like there's stuff that you wanna end that you can control or help people end it so that they can stop that pattern in their family or that generational challenge or whatever

it may be. So, yeah, I think that was definitely a big part of why I followed this road. Yeah, definitely have put my pain into purpose and that sounds like a cliché and it sounds like an over said thing maybe now. But when I was doing everything right or being the good kid, life wasn't fun. And I knew I wanted life to be a thrill. And then I thought being the bad kid was what gave me a thrill.

But I actually didn't enjoy that thrill. It was very uncomfortable because none of what I was doing was aligned with my values. And I think the life I have today is a life that perfectly, my life is massively thrilling, it's so fun. And it's purposeful and it's impactful. And so today I have that mix, but it took me going from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum

to figure out, and I'm not saying it's a balance, I'm not saying it's in the middle, I don't think it is. I think it's just creation and invention and building of, yeah, who do I want to be? And am I okay being that? And am I okay being that even if I have pure intentions and even if I care and even if I'm trying to do the right thing, there will still be people who don't understand me and don't agree with me. And becoming okay with that has been really the goal of my life, like of recent, of like,, like, that's been what I've been focused on, at least for the last few years,

is how I get acceptance of who I am genuinely. And being okay with that. Like, I am someone who enjoys, I talk about this, like, I love being a monk. And I, there's so much of my life where I still think like a monk, but I love being an entrepreneur. I get so much out of growing something and building something and scaling here. I love being a podcast host. And at the same time, I love being an entrepreneur. I get so much out of growing something and building something and scaling it. I love being a podcast host. And at the same time, I love being an author.

And I love all aspects of me and I'm okay being them, even if they're contradictory, because I don't wanna limit myself anymore. I think I limited myself in the beginning based on what society kind of put out. And then I limited by being with the bad kids and what that meant. And I was like, I don't want to limit myself

because of what people think anymore, because that never made me happy. And of course, that has limits to it. Like, you know, I wouldn't do anything painful or hurtful and that I'm not going that far. I'm just saying that, yeah, I want to allow myself to be every part of me that's authentic and real and true, even if it's contradictory or paradoxical

to other people. Getting to a place in life where you can let go of all the shitta kata woodas and like, even when you say, I'm doing things that might be contradictory. I'm glad you added to other people. It sounds like something important to you has been and you're achieving this now is like being able to do stuff and move to your life and just not really place a lot of value in what other people think of it, how people perceive it or accept it and whatever. And in that journey, like when people are like that and they exude this thing about them

where they get the validation from themselves, a side effect often is that people begin to like you. People want to be around you because it's that thing that someone did for you. It's like, I want to be him, or at least I want to be around him. Yeah, and that comes with its own pain points. It's like, you don't want anyone to become like you because you know that it wasn't smart when you wanted to be like someone. So you're like, please don't become like me

because again, you go on that journey. But sometimes you have to go on that journey of wanting to be like someone. And so you're like, please don't become like me, because again, you go on that journey, but sometimes you have to go on that journey of wanting to be like someone to figure out who you are. And it also becomes hard because you also realize that people like a facet of you or a part of you that they experience. And yeah, it's hard not to want to be liked. And I would, I enjoy being liked.

I don't think, I don't, I'd be lying if I was like, I don't want to be liked. That's much, I like being liked. It's a wonderful feeling to be liked. You just don't want to, you, you've now stopped yourself becoming moldable and malleable to be liked. I think that's what it is. It's like you're not willing to break yourself

in order to be liked is what has changed. Yeah, and how much better does it feel to be liked for just being who you are and for accepting who you are? That's much better, and the satisfaction, I think, is much greater than being liked for try so hard to be what you think that they would like. Yeah, yeah. I remember like the peer pressure of drinking alcohol when I quit drinking alcohol because I started spending too much time with monks and they weren't really into drinking alcohol.

So that was like a big moment of starting to do something. So I was someone who was always the life of the party by that age and like fun to be around and would a lot of playing drinking games and I was a competitive drinker and I've always been a competitive person. So that I would apply to any area of my life. And then I went from like that to after one summer holidays coming back and being like, hey, I don't drink anymore. And all my friends were like, what is wrong with you?

Like that was such a big identity shift for people. And when I got through that, I was like, oh, you can change your identity. Like you can, you can change change and people come with you. And those same people who thought I was cool for drinking were still my friends. And now I was like, oh, I thought I was going to lose all those people because I didn't drink anymore,

because I wasn't going out to parties anymore and doing this and that. But I didn't. Like there was more to me than that. More to me than my preferences and my interests. Correct, yeah. And so I think credit to those friends who stuck around too. When I got into spirituality and wisdom-based stuff,

like not everyone, there are certain friends who like, that's too much and there are certain friends who come with you on the journey too. And so I think that was another thing. I think there have been lots of pivots in my life where I've made tough choices about what identity I have and how I portray that to people and being okay with the risk that that may mean that I may become irrelevant

to some people. And I think that's what's now built that strength and confidence because it's just been so long of having done that. A long journey to kind of integrate reconcile so much of your childhood and what's important to you now. How did you get through all of this? I mean, I know you're sitting in front of me right now, but it's like, I guess like a final thing I'd like to kind of reflect on with you is just like, what do you think the small child J had to get through all of this?

Like we talked about some stuff that maybe we think it is now, but. The only thing that ever comes down to it is like this. And it's a beautiful feeling is like, I know my mom loves me. And it's almost like that's like the... I know that if anything was to fall apart, my mom would turn out like, and obviously she's still alive. And obviously when she won't be here anymore one day, it's like, you know,

I guess I'll still feel it internally. I don't obviously haven't lived with my mom for years. I've still felt that. But I think it's always been that confidence of like, my mom loves me. And that's kind of the only thing I can go to. I'm like, when you've been, and that's not to say that my mom,

and me, a perfect, but I feel like when you've received that kind of pure love from someone, it's hard to think you need anything else. So that's the only answer I can actually come up with is that's all I ever had was, I knew that. So even when I took risks, or even when I have taken risks and whether they failed or they went right, my mom was always there to catch me. And so when I was doing badly at school, it's like, as in in terms of getting involved

in the wrong circles, my mom was upset with me, but she still caught me with love. And so my parents would discipline me, but they still caught me with love. And I think that balance was really interesting where it's like, I mean, there was there was months where I was suspended from school and my mom had to go pick up homework and then bring it back and I do it from home. And like, there were so many reasons my parents could have been so upset with me and they were, they didn't just drop me in that sense. They weren't just like, you're a failure and you messed up and you're, you know, and they were strict and they were disciplining and they were, you know, they were tough on me when I was growing up. But I think they also had loved behind that for me. There was a

good balance between discipline, making you know you made a mistake, making sure that you are remorseful and regretful and that you've trying to get better, but that there was a forgiveness and an acceptance that you made a mistake and you can change. So, even when I came back from the monastery, they just caught me every time. And so, I think that gives you a sense of security that you'll always be loving no matter what. Love is very powerful. And it's clear that you radiate love for yourself

and love for existence, so I ever we have all that. So I do sense that love will carry you through so much in your entire life. So I'm really glad that you had that because not all people do. That's what it is, right? That's what I find so hard is that a lot of this stuff becomes easier when you've had kind of like a very loving relationship with a parent. And then my monk

teachers who also love me in the same way. And so it's having those people. I think having pillars of of love in your life. Whew, really. And that's what I'm trying to be for anyone I meet. Like I try and be that with everyone I meet, I wanna have, or to be a vessel of so much love that I could help everyone feel that way. They don't have to be my child, or they don't have to be my best friend in the world to feel that, when everyone who comes into my world

to feel that way, if I could. Mm-hmm. And so I kind of walk around wanting to have that energy always. And that's hard because it comes with a lot of challenges of your own. And yeah, thank you so much for this, this conversation. This is beautiful. And it's, you know, when you're doing this, I consider myself someone who's done a lot of this reflection. I'm speaking to everyone who's back at

home now, whether you're walking a dog or whether you're cooking or whatever you're up to right now as you're listening and watching this. I feel like I've done so much self reflection that if I'm sitting down like this, the question can be like, what do you gain or what do you learn? I find conversations like this useful, regardless of whether I discover something new

because I think we've placed such a emphasis on what's new, what's new, what's new. And to me, it's not always what's new. To me, it's like, well, what kind of sat deeper? Like, what kind of like went deeper for me? What was an idea that I shared with you that even if it wasn't a new dot that was connected for me, it's like, but that dot was strengthened. And I think of strength and depth more important than new. Again, like I feel like so many ideas I

have today got strengthened, so many ideas that I already have today gained more depth by talking to you and the questions you asked. I also felt that I was able to be vulnerable and open up with you and on my platform. And I was trying all the time to not really filter what I was saying. And I think that's a habit that I find very therapeutic to water, which is why we're doing this. And I was definitely, I brought up some old memories that I hadn't visited for a while. And even though they didn't, those memories may not be ones that I have huge emotion attached to,

but they were useful in pinpointing some of the beginnings of some ideas and beginning of some good and bad habits. And I think I find that very interesting. So I'm looking back and going, where did this star? Where did this star? And sometimes it's just happy. Like I'm like, oh, right. I realized that I started helping people at that age or I just had it eaten too. I started eating too fast at that age. And that stayed with me. And I enjoy finding that connection.

So I find conversation, like I'm walking away feeling very happy, reassured, and a sense of definitely love like ending with that was really beautiful. I like to just think about my mom in that way and really when you ask, like, what have you, what got you through it? love like ending with that was really beautiful. I like to just think about my mom in that way and and really when you ask like what have you what have you what got you through and that's the only thing that I can think of. It's also nice when you realize what got you through is something that someone gave you and then you live in gratitude because of that. So

yeah, I think lots of wonderful reminders, lots of wonderful reassurances, very therapeutic. I feel very heart-opened, very healed, which is always beautiful. And so I think when you're sitting with your therapist, if you already go to therapy, new is good, but look for strength and depth as well in ideas that you are trying to gain clarity over. If you don't already go to therapy, I hope this helped show you that it was just a genuine conversation. I wasn't forced to go anywhere I don't want to.

It's very self-reflective for me to see whether I found support in it or helping it or, you know, and I also loved how you explained why you were asking certain questions. I found that very useful. And so I encourage you, if you have a therapist right now who doesn't do that, they may not know that you like that. And if you're like me and you like that, feel free to ask your therapist that as well. And say, hey, by the way, like, when you ask me a question, could you explain to me why you're asking it and like where it sits? And sometimes they may say no, because that may defeat the purpose

of the question. And sometimes they may say, yes, and they'll explain it. And so I think it's important that you see as that relationship, too, where you're able to, you know, ask for those explanations. And I wouldn't have asked for them. But now that you've done it, I'm like, oh, oh, they really helped me. Like those were great explanations. So, hey, so any last words for anyone who's been listening or watching? I didn't have any till that last comment. Like, I would also encourage anybody to bring up their questions, challenge their therapists. A lot of people are unwilling to do that

because they don't want to cross the therapist. They want the therapist to like them. They don't want to do something that they think will rupture their relationship, but this is one of the safest places to practice bringing up uncomfortable questions. This is something we all struggle with, especially in our significant relationships with our family, but it's like, that's what the therapist is there to help you practice and get through is asking hard questions, being challenged as another person.

You know, if your therapist says or does something that you don't like, bring it up. Yeah. Otherwise, it's going to be inside of you. And more than like your therapist is going to be able to feel that something is weird. Yeah. And if you don't bring it than like your therapist is going to be able to feel that something is weird. And if you don't bring it up, they're probably going to ask you about it. So that's a great opportunity to then bring it up. And I think there were parts where it's not that I disagreed but that I was like, I'm not sure about that. I actually feel this. And I felt very comfortable to do that. I didn't feel like judge by you or that you were upset that I did that. You would make an observation and be like, well, no, it was more like this.

And I think it doesn't have to become a, yeah, it doesn't have to become a green, disagreeing thing. It's just a flowing, evolving thing. Yes. And then actually, something new I think for me was to admit to someone that I do feel bad sometimes about not feeling bad about something like that was big for me. Because yeah, it's hard when you're wired to sit and weigh and you don't know why and it's beneficial.

And I think being able to get that off my chest is actually quite nice. And to all of you as well who've been listening and watching where it's like, yeah, some things do come naturally to me and easily to me. And I can't help that. I didn't pay for that, I didn't pay for that, didn't ask for that, didn't get that subscription when I came into life. It wasn't to some people who would be like, well, you didn't even achieve that or earn that. But I'm hoping that that's what helps me help other people is that there are certain things that not that I haven't had to figure out,

but that have come in a hopeful, healed way. So yeah, thank you, ASU. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone's been listening and watching at home. Please do share the things that stood out to you. Please do pass on. If this episode helped you, I really hope it will encourage yourself, people in your family, friends to have these conversations, even if it is with your friend and then encourage them to go to therapy as well and hopefully show you or hopefully gives an example of me going to therapy in this session and Making it easier and accessible for people to think and understand how normal and how Okay, all of these things are and of course I want to give a big thank you to our partner better help Who's encouraging these conversations and giving affordable access to therapy online from the comfort of your home?

So thank you very much again, really appreciate you all. This episode was sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. Big thanks again to Hesu Jo, Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. So just so you know, this was a therapy session that you got to get a look inside of, but Hesu Jo is not my therapist, we do not have a therapist client relationship,

but I wanted to show you what a therapy session could look like. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, the wear of self-diagnosis. You'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnosis, if that's important to you. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, host of the Deeply Well podcast, where we hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your well-being journey.

Deeply well is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well with Debbie Brown is available now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Namaste.

I'm Munga Shatekler, and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find it in major league baseball, international banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me. Am I whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too.

Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet, we're constantly discovering new secrets. The variety of them continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share 10 incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience,

and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. of long-held family secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts.