On Purpose with Jay Shetty - ALEX HONNOLD: ONE Interview Before Free-Soloing Taiwan’s Tallest Building LIVE (This Episode Will Change Your Relationship with FEAR)

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

Alex Honnold doesn’t climb to feel alive, he climbs because, in those moments, life finally feels simple. Today, Jay sits down with world-renowned climber Alex Honnold to explore what truly lies behind fear, focus, and extraordinary achievement. Alex shares how his relationship with fear has been shaped not by a lack of it, but by years of consistent exposure, revealing that courage isn’t about being fearless, but about learning how to listen, respond, and stay present. Jay and Alex dive into the discipline behind seemingly impossible feats: visualization, preparation, and intentional living. Alex opens up about how he mentally rehearses climbs in vivid detail, not by imagining success alone, but by walking through every sensation, risk, and possibility. This process, he explains, allows him to stay calm and grounded when it matters most. Jay draws parallels to meditation, public speaking, and everyday challenges, showing how the same principles of visualization, presence, and focus can help anyone face intimidating moments with clarity and confidence. Beyond climbing, Alex shows his other self, a husband, father, and friend who values simplicity, purpose, and service. From building a foundation that brings solar energy to communities in need to choosing joy over ego-driven success, Alex embodies a life guided by intention rather than external validation. In this episode, you'll learn: How to Build Calm by Facing Fear How to Train Your Mind Before You Act How to Stay Focused When the Stakes Are High How to Normalize Fear Instead of Fighting It How to Use Visualization for Peak Performance How to Know Your Limits Without Losing Ambition How to Build Mastery Through Consistent Practice You don’t need to chase danger or push yourself to the edge to grow. Growth happens when you prepare with intention, focus on what’s in front of you, and stop letting imagined outcomes hold you back. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:27 The Deeper Reason Behind Climbing the Tallest Building 04:11 Choosing an Unconventional Path 06:58 Why Consistent Practice Changes Everything 09:28 What It Really Takes to Become Great 11:51 Lessons From Getting Lost 13:41 Why Fear Loses Its Power Over Time 17:00 Understanding Fear as a Physical Sensation 20:42 The Discipline of Staying Within Your Limits 22:41 What Extended Meditation Teaches You 25:55 Preparing the Mind and Body for a Big Challenge 28:51 How High Performers Actually Train 33:03 Being Intentional About the Risks You Take 34:42 Why Visualization Is a Performance Tool 38:36 Imagining the Process, Not Just the Outcome 42:32 Nature vs. Nurture: What Shapes Us Early in Life 45:58 Perfectionism, Pressure, and Letting Go 47:21 Daily Habits That Support Peak Performance 50:54 Bringing an Adventurous Mindset Into Everyday Life 53:48 Handling the Pressure Before a Defining Moment 56:49 The Climb That Redefined Human Potential 58:54 What Truly Matters When Choosing a Life Partner 01:03:31 Spotlighting People Protecting the Planet 01:03:31 What They're Doing at Planet Visionaries 01:06:07 A Letter for Alex 01:14:10 Alex on Final Five Episode Resources: Website | https://www.alexhonnold.com/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/alexhonnold  Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/AlexHonnold/  YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqnNQOiZzpPNazMN0cBAzw  Planet Visionaries | https://podcasts.apple.com/kg/podcast/planet-visionaries-season-5/id1572495128  Honnold Foundation | https://www.honnoldfoundation.org/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die. I think that it changes your relationship with fear because you experience it a lot. Fear is just feeling some sensations in your body. If you're used to that state of discomfort, you're kind of like, oh, it's just another day. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so thankful that you're tuning in for a very special episode. Today's guest is someone that I've written about in my book, Think Like a Monk. It's someone that I've mentioned in Countly Daily J Meditations on the Calm app. It's someone's story that I've been fascinated with for quite some time. I'm speaking about Alex Honnold, one of the greatest climbers

in history, an athlete who has expanded our understanding of courage, focus, and human potential. From his Oscar-winning free solo ascent to his upcoming live climb of Taipei 101, Alex continues to push the boundaries of what's possible. He's the founder of the Honnold Foundation using his platform to bring solar energy to communities in need. Today, we're diving into the mindset that makes it all possible. Please welcome to On Purpose, Alex Honnold. Alex, it's great to finally meet you. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's an honor. Yeah, I was so happy to hear that you'd actually already read the part in the book where I mentioned you, which truly your story, your mindset has been fascinating to me for years. That book came out in 2020. And so I'm so excited that I

actually get to sit down with the real human behind it today and get to actually learn from the master as opposed to my interpretations and my conceptions of what you may be doing. I think your interpretations are pretty good. That's very kind. That's very kind of you. That means the world. I wanted to start with just getting straight into it. On January 23rd, you're climbing the tallest building in Taiwan. Why? Why? Because it's awesome because I get to, basically.

Because, yeah, it's because it'll be so fun. I mean, yeah, basically, it's really hard to get permission to climb a building. And if you get permission, you kind of have to say yes. It's like so many other sorts of life experiences where you're kind of like, well, it's a hard thing to do. But you get permission, you kind of just have to go do it. And you've been wanting to climb this building for quite some time, right? Yeah, I actually scouted it for a different TV thing. The fell apart in 2013, I think.

So for the last 12 years, I've known that it was possible. I knew that it's... I mean, the building is honestly uniquely suited for climbing. It's kind of perfect. It's amazing. And it's a really beautiful building. I mean, I don't think that many people know what it looks like, but it's... I looked at it before.

Yeah, it's singular. It's striking. I mean, you saw how it sticks out of the cityscape. I mean, it's incredible. So it's just so cool. But so 12 years ago or so I scouted it and realized that I could do it. And it was like, this is amazing, but never got the opportunity. And so now I get the opportunity.

I love that. And is this building that fascinating to you because of the architecture? Because of this cityscape, is that how you choose what you feel inspired to climb? I mean, a little bit. I think in general with rock formations, you know, there are always a bunch of the different things that go into choosing a cool objective. But part of it is, you know, the aesthetic beauty of it. like is it striking does it does it catch the eye is it beautiful um i mean part of it is uh in rock

climbing is sort of like the mythology of it you know like the climbing history like is it important to climbers um and so i think with buildings it's kind of the same way like is it striking is beautiful um is it possible which in this case it's kind of in the perfect sweet spot where it's possible and it's challenging but it's not insanely challenging because if you're going to do something for a tv program it has to be uh well you just have to be able to do it on command you know And so you don't want it to be, you know, cutting edge, cutting it like the hardest thing ever done. You want it to be kind of in a sweet spot where you're like, this is challenging and it's going to, you know, keep me focused. But it's not insanely difficult.

You started climbing really young, right? Well, 10-ish, which actually nowadays elite climbers all start even younger. But yeah, I was lucky enough to start as a kid. And was it always the plan for it to be a professional pursuit? No, no. No, my parents are both professors and, you know, they were supportive and like, go do the thing that you like to do. do. But I mean, especially when I was young, climbing was way more fringe, way more niche. And so nobody was a professional climber. You know, but thankfully, as I grew up, that kind of climbing has

also grown up quite a bit. Climbing's in the Olympics now. It's just way bigger of a sport. So it's a little less unusual. And there's just more money in it now so you can actually make a living. Was there a moment that you felt that you were, you're like, oh, I'm actually good at this. Like, this is real. Like, when did that happen for the first? No, not really. No, I mean, for years, I thought that I would wind up being. a mountain guide or something or, you know, I just wanted to, I figured I'd get some kind of job within the climbing world. And then, you know, I picked up some sponsors and started getting my gear for free. And I was living in a van by myself, so it's pretty low overhead. You're kind of

living. And then eventually you're kind of like, oh, I'm making a living, doing this thing I love to do. And then eventually you're making a little more. And then I was like, oh, I mean, it took years until I really thought of myself as a professional climber. You know, at first it was just kind of like, oh, I'm basically a homeless person living in a van who happens to get climbing choose for free. You're like, oh, that's cool, but that's different than feeling like you're actually going to make a living as a rock climber. And so you were doing this even when it, there was, there was, there was, this was what you were chasing. It's not like you were working another job and doing this on the side. No, I mean, I did work, you know, like I worked in my

climbing gym when I was a kid and, you know, I worked a little bit on the side. But, uh, but no, basically I've just been trying to climb my whole life. Well, what was the first climb that you did that was challenging and risky or some sort of like real? I mean, I think as I started to dabble outdoors because I grew up in suburban California, like in Sacramento. And so I would just ride my bicycle to the climbing gym. And so for the first, you know, eight years of my climbing life is just going climbing in the gym. So, I mean, it's super fun. And you can learn all the skills that way, but it's not particularly extreme or anything. It's not like, you know, it's not what people think of as adventure. And then once I learned how to drive and then started

borrowing the family car and started going outside more, then I started having some of the adventures that I think characterize what people think of as extreme rock climbing and all that. Yeah. What's the experience for you? Like, is it the thrill? Is it the fascination? What part of it gives you life and brings you a life? Like, what part of it gives you joy? I mean, I think at the core is just the movement of climbing. Like, I literally just came here from the climbing gym because I had a little time in between things. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn't watch my hands. But yeah, it's like there's there's a climbing gym relatively nearby and I was like oh perfect so just a quick session basically just rapid-fired problems around the gym uh bolting gym so just short and you know it's safe

and I just did an hour as fast as I could and now I'm tired and I'm like what a nice day so it's really just the movement of of climbing I think is is the at the core that's the joy of it but then beyond that there's the challenge you know like overcoming fears uh you know as a professional climber I mean the travel involved in it like seeing the world being outdoors in nature having beautiful experiences, all your friends. I mean, there are all these other things that are amazing about climbing. But I think the thing that always brings me back to

is I just like climbing. You know, it's like running or swimming or other sort of like elemental movement patterns. It just feels good to do the thing. Tell me about the actual skill of climbing for someone who isn't a climber. Yeah, I'm climbed at all? I don't think I've climbed at all.

I'm trying to think about it in my life. I don't think I've ever climbed. And so I would love to understand. Talk to me about the actual skill of climbing as if you were training me. Even as a kid, you never climbed on things? Of course. I love climbing on things. I wanted to do parkour. My parents would never let me. Parkour was like my fascination. I saw kids doing parkour. I was like, that's so cool. I love

climbing trees. I love climbing walls. I've climbed a lot of gates. I've climbed like I've climbed like, I've climbed like that. I've climbed like, I've climbed like gates. I've climbed like that's the same thing basically. Yeah. And that's actually I think one of the interesting things, you know, with this building thing coming up, people are like, wow, do you climb a building. I'm kind of like, what was a kid. I climbed all the buildings are on my home. I climbed all the trees. I fell out of trees quite a lot. Me too. And, you know, I'm kind of like. I just located my wrist doing that. Oh, yeah. There you go. Yeah, I broke my arm three times as a kid falling off play structures and once in the climbing gym.

But, yeah, I mean, basically most kids, it feels like love that kind of play. And I think it's pretty normal to play on things in that way. And so it's interesting that now as an adult people are like, why would you do that? And you're kind of like, because it's awesome because it's so fun. It's like the same reason the kids like to do that

because it's cool. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I still love a ropes course. Like, you know, if I have it, But I get the play bit, but what are the skills that you've had to build to actually be able to do this professionally? Because there's a difference between I love the play and then, you know, I'm going to climb the 11 tallest building in the world. Like what's the training? What's the skill level? Talk to me about the mastery from zero to where you are today. What are the steps that it's taken to?

I mean, yeah. I'm like in some ways, you just go and do the thing all the time and you get better at it. you know on the other hand it's like i've been yeah i've been climbing probably five days a week for 30 years and you're like oh you're bound to slowly get better at something if you put that much effort into it um but yeah i mean i guess the i mean it comes down to movement like how well do you move your body like transferring your weight over your feet like in theory your legs should be driving you for most things i mean people think of climbing as pulling with your arms but really you should think of it as as climbing a steep steep staircase so you should be driving with your legs and you should be using your hands almost like you were on a handrail like for balance um you know

obviously if a climb is more than vertical, then you have to hang on with your arms more. But still, you should be driving as much as you can through your feet. So it comes down to technique and body position, where you, how you use your hips, all that kind of stuff. But, you know, in some ways, I think that overcomplicates it, though. It's like, really, you just go and you try. You know, you just go climbing. I love how casual you make it sound. When I'm thinking, like, in my head, I'm thinking, well, you never skip leg day because you need to work on that.

Like, are there certain muscle groups that you just need to be proficient at and prolific? at so that you can be a better climbing. I mean, climbing is very full body, so it's like basically use everything. I mean, if you could just like turn the dials on something, if you could turn your finger strength to infinity, then you'd be a great climber. You know, it's like basically if you can hold on things very, very well, then basically you can, you can climb well. How do you build your finger strength?

Well, sadly, I'm, finger strength is probably my biggest weakness as a climber. It's probably the one thing that, or it's probably the thing that I'm worse at overall, especially compared my peers like other professional climbers. I've always been sort of better with sort of full body. Like I think I have good technique and so I can transfer a lot of weight to my feet and sort of keep them off my fingers because my fingers aren't that strong. But in general, you build finger strength, the same way you build any other strength. You basically load your fingers.

And finger strength is actually your forearm strength. It's like you're, you know, because you control your hand like through your forearm. Yeah, grip strength. And so you just build that by, you know, hanging from small edges or hanging with more weight on you, just, you know, you build up. How many hours do you spend training per week? I can probably spend, you know, three to five hours in a session climbing, and I can do that maybe five days a week or so.

But that doesn't totally do, you know, some of the days that I go, you know, quote unquote climbing, I'm going soloing in the mountains or something. And so of that time, a chunk of it is hiking into the thing. Some of it's climbing the thing. Some of it's like eating lunch on top and trying to figure out where the next, how to get off the mountain or whatever, you know what I mean? Like sometimes you can have a six or eight hour day in the mountains and you're kind of like strolling, but it's all very low intensity. You're kind of like wandering through the

mountains and figuring out what you're doing. It's not like, it's not like, it's not intense the whole time. Yeah, it's not like Michael Phelps training in the pool or something. You know what I mean? You're like wandering on the mountains, like slightly confused trying to figure out. And I mean, sometimes you walk into the mountains, it turns out it's cold and raining and then you walk back and you're kind of like, well, I didn't actually climb anything and that's just the way it goes. When you count like hours of training, and actually, so in the past, I used to have a training journal where I did keep track of hours. And now I don't really keep track of time because that's not really the best metric, I don't think, is more around effort and, you know, like what you've actually

done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, because some days you spend a ton of time, but you don't do that much. And then other days, in a couple hours, you can get completely destroyed because they're going super hard. Yeah. What's been your favorite place you've got lost? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I live in Las Vegas, and Red Rock Conservation Area is like this big world famous climbing destination, like just outside of town. And I live near it and I climb in Red Rock all the time. And I still got lost all the time. It's like really complicated sandstone canyons with like folds of rock and, you know, tricky. It's just, yeah, I mean, it's crazy because every season, I'm like, where'd the trail go? I'm like, oh, I live here and I hike this all the time and I'm like,

how am I still lost? But, you know, that's the joy of being outdoors, really. When you were talking about the mindset as well, you were saying half of it is, you know, the beauty of the landscape or the rock formation. And you said the other half is just your fascination with overcoming fear and the mindset piece. I imagine being lost while we're doing something you love is quite a special feeling. It seems that you've made friends with. I mean, I've never really, actually, there only been a couple times where I've been, like, lost, lost. Like, one's actually climbing a thing in South Africa. I thought I was going to have to drop into, now I forget, what's the neighboring country to the north? We were right on

the border, like, north of Johannesburg. I forget what the next country north is. But basically, I thought I was going to have to drop over the border, like, into another country and basically go find a village, because we were up on a mountain, basically, and you could see villages off from the distance. But I was like, couldn't find my way back to where I was supposed to. And it was kind of like, I'm just going to go fully rogue here and just have to like borrow somebody's phone and try to find a way to contact the people that I'm supposed to be. But ultimately I found my way eventually showed up hours late and totally torn to shreds from like crawling through the bushes. All confused. But so I've only had a few experiences like that where I'm lost, lost.

For the most part, you always have a sense of where you're supposed to be going. You're just not on the trail or, you know, you can't find the best way. Yeah. But that is, I mean, that is kind of the joy of climate. You just have tons of experiences like that where you're like, oh, I'm doing some crazy thing. I read that in 2016 neuroscientists conducted a brain scan and found that your amygdala responded much less to fear than the average person. Did you always feel that way growing up? No, but I was, so this is part of a longer thing, but I would suspect that your amygdala probably responds less to fear than the average person just in the same way. Like years of meditation will do the same thing. It's like you're just not going to respond to stimulus in the same way. And so

for me I see that is basically I've been getting afraid I've been consistently experiencing fear all the time as a climber you know for years and so then the test they they did for that particular brain scan you know you're in fMRI and then you look at these black and white photos and I'm like well obviously looking at photos while I'm lying down inside of sealed tube it's just not scary you know if you spend your whole life getting scared all the time that's not scary and in the same way that I'm sure if somebody scans your brain it's going to be different than average because you spent a ton of time working on it basically you're kind of like that seems totally reasonable you know it's like i don't know it's a shame because there's a scene in free solo you know they show a little clip from that

and basically everyone watching the movie comes out of like well there's something wrong with his brain and you're like no the takeaway is that if you practice something your whole life you get better at it it's like that's that's the real lesson yeah that i mean now looking at it from your perspective that makes a lot of sense in that you're right that when you're doing those tests it will rarely be as scary as something you've done in reality. Yeah, I mean, it's like I get tons of questions around fear and like managing fear and all that. And, you know, my answer is obviously like changed over time and I've like thought about fear a ton of my life. And now, honestly, I'm always like, you know, it's been 30 years I've been climbing all the time.

And climbing is really scary. Like you're always scared at least a little bit as a climber because there are always consequences in climbing. Even if you're climbing with a rope and you're using protection, you're still always a little bit on edge because, you know, you're like, what if the rope? cut. Like, what if, you know, it didn't time I not? Like, there are always these what ifs. And so you're always a little bit afraid. And so I think that it changes your relationship with fear because you're just scared all the time. I mean, you know, not like deep fear, but there's always an edge to it. And so I think that puts all the other fear in life sort of in perspective. You know, it gets you good at managing fear because you experience

it a lot. How do you moderate it or regulate it in that moment when you've got to place the next step, you've got to reach for something else, you've got to keep moving. Because I think that's, you're spot on, by the way, I love the way you're talking about fear, because I think you're absolutely right that if you're constantly in a state of discomfort, but you have the right mindset because a lot of people in the state of discomfort, but then they overthink or they procrastinate or they get stuck. I think it's like, if it's their first time in a state of discomfort, then it's pretty overwhelming. But if you're used to that state of discomfort, you're kind of like, oh, it's just another day. And I think that's the thing with climbing is

that a lot of the time, you know, you're a little bit scared, but you just totally ignore because the rational part of your mind is like, this is fine. Like your harness is not, like everything is safe. The rope is safe. You're totally fine. And so you just ignore it. But then occasionally you're like, oh, I'm scared because I'm in danger. And so then you're kind of like, oh, I should think about this and sort of evaluate like is, you know, am I going to be okay?

Is it should I take different actions? Should I try to mitigate this in some way? So I don't mean, you know, it totally depends. But that's the thing is the climbers you're constantly balancing those kinds of things. Like is this fear well founded? Should I act upon it in some way? should I do something, should I not, you know. Yeah, and so your relationship with fear seems just very neutral in the sense of

you're having a conversation with it. It's like every other day. Yeah, well, I sometimes, I mean, fear is a sensation in your body, same as lots of other things. And so I've used this analogy before, but I'm kind of like, it's like hunger. You know, it's like, when you experience hunger, you're not like, oh, my God, I'm hungry. I need a sandwich right now. You're just kind of like, okay, I should eat at some point. And I feel like, I think because people experience fear much less frequent.

it feels more overwhelming. But, you know, if you experience fear with the same regularity that you experience hunger, then you're kind of like, okay, like, I'll deal with that in due time. Like when it makes sense, I'll manage that. But fundamentally, feeling fear is just feeling some sensations in your body or so. Like, it's not like, doesn't matter more or less than any other thing that you feel in your body, really, unless it's telling you you're about to die, in which case you should pay attention. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that that, what you just said about, the more frequently you are exposed to fear, the less fear affects you. Does that translate from the physical sensation to when you're having

emotional, relational challenges as well? Probably less so than my wife wishes, you know? You know what I mean, right? I think it does a little bit probably because, you know, to some extent, managing fear is managing fear. But it is a little bit of what you practice. I think I'm really good at dealing with like physical fear, like physical risk and things where I'm like, I feel like I'm in danger. Less so. I mean, public speaking, I was horrified. of for long time. But again, with tons of practice, it's gotten much more comfortable. It's fine. And then like relationshipal stuff. I'm sort of like, oh, that's, I mean, my wife would say there's still a long ways to go. Yeah, talk to me about the difference between like the fear of what

you do, which most of us would see as that is scary. And then public speaking, which is known as one of the scariest things to do on planet Earth. Like, talk to me about the difference. No, I think it's really similar. I mean, I think most people are, I mean, I was definitely more afraid of public speaking than climbing, but obviously, you know, I love climbing. I spend the whole life doing it. Yeah. But public speaking is, is horrifying. Though that said, now that I've had a lot of practice with it, I would say that it's not that scary. Whereas climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die. You know, with public speaking, it like feels like you might die, but you're just, you know, it's fine. Like, you can always go out and like make a fool yourself

and it doesn't really matter. Well, that's what I'm saying, right? Like, the reason why we get scared of doing things that where there isn't a cost is because we almost make it out like there is a higher stake to it yeah but i think that with a little bit of practice you realize that there just isn't that high of stake there's no stakes like you know when you haven't done it before you're like what if they laugh at you and then you're like what if they do like who cares you know like turns out it's totally fine doesn't matter yeah you know but with with some of the physical fear stuff you're kind of like well i mean it does matter if you fall to your death or yeah you know so those you know that will always have some edge to it yeah

And so how do you process that in the moment when those, when that's what you're thinking? I mean, it depends. You know, first take some deep breaths, compose yourself sort of like try to deal. I mean, the thing with climbing is that there's never any time pressure to it. So you can just stand there basically. Wow. Like, you know, even if you're clinging to the rock, like maintaining a static position is typically not like that hard. So you can just hold on, take some deep breaths, take your time, get composed.

And then try to decide whether or not, you know, it's like sometimes you get really scared for no particular reason. And then other times, you're kind of like, oh, it turns out that I'd, you know, misjudged the rock quality. And this is much more dangerous than I thought it was. And, like, maybe I should bail. And so, I mean, I've bailed off all kinds of things where you climb part way up something.

And you're like, this is not for me. And you just climb back down. That's interesting to hear. So you're okay with knowing your edge and knowing your limit. Yeah. There's not, I mean, the thing with free-soling is that you always have to stay well within your limits. You know, it's like, because like, when you're climbing with a rope,

you're always trying to push yourself, like, sort of beyond your limits so that you can learn and grow and everything. But if you're free-soling, you stay well within your comfort zone because obviously you just can't fall off. And that's what this next climb is, right? Yeah, this next time is free-soling, but it should be, I mean, it's interesting. It should be well within my physical comfort zone. Like, you know, I should be able to physically climb it.

But the sort of exciting thing for me is that I've just never climbed a building like that before. And so I think even though I'm very confident in my physical ability to do it, I'm still kind of like, well, I'm doing a new thing. And so that's always a little bit exciting. Yes. Yeah, I love that as well. I feel like what I really appreciate with how we're talking about fear right now and through your reflection on it is that there's a sense of recognizing that any time I do something new, I'll feel a sense of discomfort or fear. And that's a good thing. Yeah. Because that means I'm going. I'm trying something new. Well, and that's the whole thing is like, are you experiencing fear? Are you experiencing nervousness or excitement or, you know, because a lot of those things are the same sensation in your body, really?

You're like, oh, I'm like a little nervous. Or I'm feeling like butterflies and I feel tingling and I'm on edge and I feel heightened. And you're like, am I afraid or am I excited? Like, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to exactly pinpoint some of those kinds of things. And so I think it's you just don't want to put too fine a point. I'm like, I'm scared because you're like, or you're just sight. Yeah, yeah.

Like I know that when I get to the bottom of the building, like, Actually, surprisingly, the first move off the ground is one of the harder moves on the climb. And you kind of have to, like, jump up and catch this thing and, like, start climbing and, like, basically taking the first step on the building is, like, one of the hardest. And I'm sure I'm going to be a little nervous and a little tight and just kind of like, oh, this is, you know, with cameras and people and a whole spectacle, I'll be like, this is crazy. Yeah, it's just going to be like, you know, I'm nervous. But does that mean I'm scared? I'm like, I mean, we'll see. I don't think so, but I think it'll be exciting for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. No, I mean, not that I've done anything that I think is that hard, but anything I've ever done for the first time. Yeah, it's scary a little bit. Even if I've done it for a long time, it's still nerve-wracking. Like I said, not comparing anything at all. But yes, for me, if I was going into a longer meditation than I've ever done before. Yeah, you'd be like, this is a new step.

Absolutely, I'm still nervous. And again, what is the longest meditation you've done? What's considered like a long meditation? So we would do a minimum of four to eight hours a day when I lived in blocks or something? in full chunks. Like you could do four together or eight together. Dude. Yeah,

sometimes, yeah. But the longest one I've ever done, the longest one I've ever done is probably just under 24 hours. Yeah, the longest ever. Wow. How deep did you go? It was one of the, it was one of the ones I don't talk about it.

It was one of the best, most, because what we learned through length of meditation was not to show how long you can meditate. It was the ability to have to disconnect from the body. because you have to go beyond the body to be that present in the moment because you'll start and I mean yours is much harder but like you'd start feeling an ache or a pain you start itching you start mentally getting lost someone so you've got to your back hurts and your totally totally so you've got to go beyond the body and the mind in 24 hours you get hungry you have to go to the bathroom exactly I mean how do you like yeah no you're fasting to make it easier but yeah

does that make it easier to but you know because just fasting for 24 hours is it's its own challenge yeah we would do it often enough so it wasn't it wasn't again it's what you just said about it's what you practice when you're practicing it it's it doesn't sound that crazy for me to say out loud because i know other monks who've done it for three days and seven days and you know for longer than far long can people meditate for seven days oh absolutely really they're like they're like there's some people that i mean yeah i'm like a complete beginner when it comes to you know the realm of real you know work that some of these incredible people that i got to me have done do but seven days is a long time to sit yeah it's a long time to sit

maybe not good it feels like more than you might need yeah yeah exactly well it's it's always like that interesting thing where I remember when I was starting to do cold plunges in the beginning I'd always be like what's the right amount of time to be in a cold plunge and when I was zero I was gonna ask you how long you could do forever no no I don't do that kind of thing but it's because I'm kind of like I don't think it matters like I don't think it makes me better. So, you know, if I was convinced that this would like change my life, then I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I could do that, you know, mind over matter or whatever. But there are a lot of things like that same with meditation where I'm like, if I thought this was the path and like that would

help me send, you know, like climb harder. And I'm like, yeah, I would do that. But if I don't think so, then I'm like, no, I take a hot shower. I love that. I love that. But no, it's what I was saying was that when I first started to do it, it was there's the ego number because it makes you feel better, but then there's the number that's actually good for your health. So I think most health experts would say three to seven minutes in there is amazing. But then people will be like, I was in there for 15 minutes, but it's almost like it doesn't, it's not that active after the seven minutes because your body's regulated and now it's not a challenge or a shock and even after 20 you're dead. So, you know, it's like no real benefit. It's not actually

happen. So has there ever been anything? You're like, I really want to climb that, but actually it's too risky and I wouldn't even bother. Like you said, you bail. Well, it turns. Okay, so actually, so in the context of the building, so when the idea of climate skyscgraver for a lot of things, came up, you know, whatever, 12 years ago or something when we first scouted. The first thing I scouted was the Birch Khalifa, which is the tallest building in the world and goodbye. And it's possible you can climb it. I mean, I was able to do the moves on it, but it's a, it's cutting edge basically. It's like very, very hard. And how high did you get? I could climb the building with a rope, you know, I could climb

the outside, but it's, uh, it's just very hard. And also it's hard in the wrong ways. It's like very slippery and very, very finicky. Like you could imagine just slipping off in a moment. So basically, I was kind of like, It was kind of like the L-CAP of free-soling or something. I was like, sure, if I devoted myself to this, I, like, moved to Dubai and just, like, live it on this building. It's like, yeah, it's possible, you know, like, it can physically be done with the proper commitment and everything. But for a TV program, and I was like, no, this is crazy. Like, I'd actually started thinking about using like a D-Day style parachute, you know, like old school military parachutes.

Like a modern parachute is like a wing has a direction to it. So it's actually not that helpful for something like a building because you'd have to be able to get a clean exit away from the building and turn away from it and face the correct direction. because if you're if you deployed your parachute and you went into the building you just crumple and collapse and die so anyway but so like a drop parachute just like an old school like what you imagine like GI Joe using that just go straight down when I was playing on the verge I was kind of like well maybe I'd use something like that because then if you know you did slip at least you could just basically plum it straight down the face of the building like it might kind of be okay you know maybe you'd break your ankle at the bottom but you're not going to die and so you know

I started considering ideas like that I was like this is all crazy this is too much like this is too extreme, basically. And so, I mean, that's an example of a climb where I'm like, yeah, it's possible. Like, somebody could do it, but it's just way outside what I think is reasonable. Yeah. But then when I went and scouted typo 101, it's kind of like, oh, it has all the same features of a striking building that's like the biggest thing in the whole landscape. It's amazing. But the style of climbing is way more secure. Like the things that you're grabbing are way less slippery and the shape of them works better. Like you can just hold on better. I was just like, oh, this is the type of challenge I'm looking for.

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder whether now, after this, they're going to start building buildings for you to climb. That's what's going to happen. I don't think architects even, I don't even think it crosses their mind, like what humans can hold on the outside. Because it's interesting.

I mean, some buildings are just completely impossible because there's a smooth metal and glass. And then other buildings are like a ladder. You know, it's almost like a jungle gym where it's like too easy. It's kind of trivial. Like anybody could walk up and do it if they wanted to. Yes.

Like the New York Times building in, in New York City has been climbed by a handful of random people and like some just random dude off the street just climbed like half the building because it's like a scaffolding basically and you're kind of like well that's not the challenge

that I'm looking for because I've spent my whole life practicing this thing I want to do something that's hard enough that it feels meaningful to me. Hey, I'm Nora Jones. and I love playing music with people so much

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. How do you prepare for a climb so you scout it out but how do you how do you then prepare like how are you preparing right now for yeah I actually just started all my training type stuff for it it's funny I did the scout in September because they have to do it far enough out to you know assemble the crew and plan the filming and all that kind of stuff and so and it's funny because I was super psyched at the time. You go and scout it and you're like, God, this is so cool. I'm so excited.

Like, I want to do this next week. You know, I'm like, let's do this. I'm ready. But then I kind of had to just sit on it for, you know, a couple months just because it's scheduled for January. And so now sort of two and a half months out, I've started like properly training. You just don't want to start like really training too far out because then you'll just get like injured and tired.

And you know, it's like you kind of want to peek at the right time. And so, yeah, I'm just, I don't know, like all the all the ways you normally train like eating really well, sleeping really well, exercising a tremendous amount, and just kind of trying to ramp up my volumes so that I feel incredibly fit when the time comes. And that's so interesting that you said you have to peek at the right time. So have you learned how to do that overtime, I assume, because in my head I'm thinking, oh, wait, for something this big, you'd prepare six months in advance. But I love what you're saying. Well, but. Yeah. Yeah, like a training block, normally you can only sustain, say, three to six

weeks of hard effort before you kind of need like a delode time. Like, basically, you can only build for a certain amount of time and then you need some kind of natural rest and then you can start building in. And so ideally you sort of like naturally build up over time. But if you were say six months out from an event, you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated like I'm going to train really hard for a month, but then rest for like a week or two and then train really hard. You know, you need like a complicated plan. In this case, I have a relatively simple plan in that I'm basically just ramping until the building. And I kind of started my training maybe a little prematurely. I was all psyched. And so I think I'm going to take a little delode time around

Christmas, which actually works perfectly with the holidays and things, because I think I'll basically wind up doing six weeks or so, and then have like a week at Christmas where I kind of chill and then do another three or four weeks and then do the thing. You sound just like us, Alex. No. Well, it's all kind of perfectly, you know, I think it should be perfect. But we'll see. So far, so far I'm responding well and feel really strong. And yes, it's great. I love hearing though. I'm excited to see it. Like I'm so, I'm so thrilled. It's to do it live is just, you know, you're giving us a real treat like I think you know it's interesting though because like for me the live thing doesn't if anything it makes it more chill because normally when you shoot a documentary

you go and you do the thing and then you have to go back and film on it and you have to shoot pickups and shoot audio and like do all this extra work basically and so you know it's this tremendous amount of effort but for the live event I'm kind of like I'm going to go and I'm going to do it and then I'm going to fly home and I'm done it's totally amazing it's like as soon as like do the climb I'm totally done yeah but the thing for us it's more fun because we get to be the that with you. Yeah, yeah, but I just don't, you know, I basically don't totally care, you know, about, like, other people's experience, like, because, oh, you don't. Oh, so interesting. I mean, not really, you know. Oh, interesting. Okay. So sort of like, if it was a film about it, like,

that'd be fine for me, too, the live thing. Basically, I want to, I want to do a climb that I'm proud of. Like, I'm excited about climbing it. And the way other people experience that, I'm kind of like, you know, yeah. I mean, I don't want to say I don't care because I want other people to have, you know, a good time from it. But, like, you know, that's not the problem. You don't know what I mean? Yeah, I loved it. Well, you just do it because you love it. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the thing.

And I think. It's simple as that, yeah. Yeah. That's brilliant. What a great place. I think everyone wants to live that way. You do it because you love it. It doesn't really matter.

Yeah, it's funny. Like, when it first got announced as a project, there was, you know, the sort of expected online hate and stuff from people in the climbing community being like, why would you do that? That's stupid. Why, I'm building is too risky or like, you know, like, whatever, you know, criticism for various reasons. But I was kind of like, man, wait until you. you see the thing. It's so cool. It's so fun. You know, if you had the opportunity to do this,

you would do it too because like any climber would say yes to this because it's, it's super fun. And any, you know, like getting an opportunity to do something amazing, it's like, why would you ever say no to that? But my goal for the, you know, if I can say I have a goal for the building, I mean, other than climbing it, it's just to actually have fun doing it. Because I'm kind of like, that's what I want people to see from it. Like, this is awesome. You know, not like some death defying stunt. It should be like, this is amazing. Like, this is so fun. This is joyous. You know. Yeah, absolutely. We'll see. Yeah, I love how playful you make it because appealing to that part, I think we can all relate to that when it was just when it was playful, when it was exciting, when it was.

Yeah. I know it's like this thing is it gets wrapped and all this like, it's extreme. And you're kind of like, yes, I mean, yes, it's very high consequence. Like if I make a mistake, if I totally botched something, I could die. And you're like, yeah, that's, you don't want to downplay that too much. But at the same time, it's pretty fun. And the thing is that those are the same consequences if I don't pay attention when I'm driving or like whatever else. There are plenty of other things you do in life where if you botch it, you're going to die. And yet people take some of those things for granted. It's like, oh, that's just normal life. You're kind of like, well, you know, it's like you've got to be intentional around where you're taking your risks. Yeah. Do you think that's a helpful mindset when you are doing things as well to recognize it, to see it more as, I guess, grounded in real and normal in terms of when you're processing

things. Is that a helpful mindset? What do you mean? Like even just the way you describe it, which I agree with, you're like, yeah, well, there's crazy risk in this as well. And you're right. driving, for example, and texting and, you know, all that kind of stuff or drink driving or whatever. Yeah, drinking and driving, to me is the thing. People are always like, oh, climbing seems

dangerous. And you're like, well, the thing with climbing is at least you're choosing the risks that you're taking. And obviously, I'm training for them. I'm preparing for them. You know, I have like imagery of the building at home so I can visualize the moves. You know, like, there's a lot that goes into it. Whereas people go on party on a Friday night and then they drive home. They're like, what else? You know, it's just a Friday. I'm partying. And you're like, well, those, you're taking a tremendous amount of risk sort of unintentionally. Same texting and driving too. Yeah, I mean, and those are the types of things where you're like, you know, it's like

if you're not choosing to take those risks, I don't know. I mean, I think that's kind of worse. Yeah, talk to me about the visualization because I'm such a big fan of visualizations. Yeah, I read about it as a meditation technique. Talk to me about where you just said you have a picture of the building. Well, yeah, so I mean, in rock climbing, like when I'm climbing hard roots, let's say, you always just imagine the route. You think about it.

You remember the moves. part of it is to physically remember what to do, like left hand, right hand, like drop the left hip, you know, turn the knee, things like that, like the mechanics of it. And then part of the visualization is like, what will it feel like, particularly around free-soling, things that you're not going to be able to practice necessarily? So some of the visualizing is just, you know, like, how will it feel to put my foot on something that's really slippery when, you know, I'm going to die of its lips? And so you're just kind of imagining the sensations and all that, that kind of stuff. So you can't, as part of free-selling, you can't go and climb this building at any point

in order to practice. Well, no, I can go practice it with a rope. Okay. But the thing is, you just don't know, because when you have a rope on, you don't really mind if your foot's going to slip or something. But then when you take the rope away, you're kind of like, well, is it going to feel different? Like, I don't know.

And you can't totally practice that. So you kind of have to do that mentally, just imagine it. Yeah. So you get a sense while you're on the rope, almost as a dress rehearsal feeling. And then you're having to remember that feeling. Yeah, and sort of imagine the potential feelings. Because part of the benefit of visualization, I think,

is that you're like, what if it's humid that day? What if it's particularly dry? And like with a building, it's interesting because with glass and metal, you know, the texture is obviously really different than rock. And so I'm not sure if I want it to be humid or if I want it to be dry. Like with rock, you normally want it to be super dry because it's humid. It's too slippery on the rock. But with a building, because it's so slippery to begin with, I think you actually want some humidity so it doesn't feel as slowly. Like you want your skin to stick to it a little bit.

And so you want like a little bit of dampness. But obviously you don't wetness. You don't want it to be wet because then it's really slippery. Anyway, just thinking about stuff like that. I mean, that's all part of visualization, I think. But what I was going to say is that with rock climbing, you know, you don't normally have footage of any of this type of stuff. So you just imagine it. You remember, you think about the climb.

With this building, you know, we already went and did a scout and they were practicing the camera positions. They flew a drone up and down the building to like figure out the angles and all that kind of stuff. And so I never, I don't think I'd ever done this before, but I kind of reached out the production team. It was kind of like, send me, you know, selects of the whole building so I can remember all the different sequences better. And so they sent me just some visuals of the building, but then they also sent me some clips of me climbing different things. And I was like, oh, this is actually tremendously useful because I can see how I'm doing it and what I can do better.

And I was like, oh, this is great. I love that you use visualization as a technique, though. Every climber does. It's a really big part of climbing. And you're visualizing the process, the texture, the feeling. Everything. Yeah, every detail that you could possibly imagine or know from. And sometimes you're imagining, you know, the experience,

like the consequences of it are like, what if you do fall? like um i mean like particularly with with free selling all cab like with i've spent so long kind of working on that i mean i thought about like what if i fell from here fell from there just because and even though those are terrible things to visualize because it's you fall into your death in horrible ways because uh you know a lot of places falling off a mountain it's not like a clean it's not like i fell and then you hit the ground it's like you bounce you know hundreds of feet or a thousand feet and it's a disaster and so but it's important to think about that stuff ahead of time so that when you're up there you don't suddenly for the first time you know it's not like

Oh, if I fell here, it would be horrible. It's like, no, you've already thought about that. You visualized, you processed it, and you've chosen to set that aside and execute the climb anyway. Yeah, you've already sat with the discomfort of that feeling in a safe environment. Exactly. So now you can track that and bring that with you to this. Yeah, now you don't have to think about it while you're up there.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, ideally, you think through all that stuff ahead of time. And so far with the building, I haven't gotten too deep in all that yet, just because I'm still kind of a ways out and I'm sort of focused on the physical side. And it's just not quite as close to my personal edge, I think. I'm pretty sure. Like, I just, I think it should be well within my comfort zone, I think. So there's just not as much time devoted to like, what if I die?

But, you know, we'll see. No, no, I, but I love the visual. Do you, what's interesting to me is I'm thinking about all of us. And I, you know, I think the smallest things in the world would be easier if, so, for example, I've been public speaking for years, and I've always asked for a picture of the stage so that I can visualize myself walking out so that I don't trip over when I go out there so that I think about all that and I'm giving a very human example of something that I hope my listeners can take away going okay well how do I use that? I'm like yeah I visualize myself

giving presentations I visualize myself doing difficult things for the first time I visualize pretty much everything I use it as a technique you're a trained visualizer though so it's like an easy tool for you to pull out of the box for sure but I would really encourage people to do it because hearing you talk about it, I'm like, yeah, you're visualizing all the details. And what I love that you haven't once said, and I want to ask you about this, is you didn't just say, oh, I visualized getting to the top and celebrating. It's like, no, I visualized. Yeah, I don't care about that. Yeah, I thought you didn't. Talk to me about that, because I think that's what, today, when we talk about manifesting and visualizing, people will have this, visualize where you want to

live. Yeah, they visualize success. Right? And it's like, who cares about that? Because, like, that'll just follow. Like, if that happens, great, if it doesn't, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I haven't visualized that. I mean, it's not totally true because the top of the buildings is this incredible little spire. It's like a small little, it's like it's basically the space between us. It's just a little dome. So you just stand on this, yeah, you stand on this tiny little pinnacle and it's incredible

in the view is insane. But, you know, I've already gone up there, like climbed up through the hatch, just like check it out and repel off the side and things. And so, you know, I know it's amazing. And I know that it's going to feel amazing to stand up there. So I haven't really like visualized that because I'll just, you know, it's like when it happens, it happens. But no, you visualize this stuff that's important.

But actually, I mean, talking about. this anything. I think in some ways if you're talking to like the the lay person audience, whatever, I think maybe it's worth not framing it as visualization because, you know, over the years as a climber, I've always just kind of thought of as daydreaming. You know, it's like, because also as a climbing, you spend so much time hiking to and from cliffs and I spent a lot of time by myself walking around, you know, in the mountains. And you just spend a lot of time daydreaming, basically, like thinking about climbing. And so, you know, occasionally like a project like this, I'll intentionally visualize around,

I'm like, okay, I'm getting ready for a thing. But basically any time I go wandering in the mountains, I spend a tremendous amount of time just thinking about, you know, like your mind's always wandering on something. It might be wandering through climbs that you're excited about or things that you're thinking about or projects that you have, like things on the back burner that you didn't quite do that you want to go back to. So, you know, I mean, I think it's less daunting to think of it as like,

oh, when you're out for a hike or like out for a walk with your dog, you just daydream about things that matter to you. Like, that is visualization. Yes, yes, yes. Like you can make it more focused and you can do it more intending. but at the core it's just it's just imagining stuff yes yes I like that and the truth is all of us are imagining but most of us are imagining worst-case scenario like so we imagine the meeting and going oh god I'm gonna get fired today or you know that that's how we imagine I wonder about that

because so I don't really have that so much I didn't think you did yeah and I do kind of wonder if I'm just like just a little less neurotic than average like as a base hardwired you know what I mean like it's interesting because I've read it you know I just read your book I I've read a ton of, like, self-help type stuff over the years and, like, all kinds of, and generally I read it. I'm like, I'm already living my best life. Like, I love my life. I'm doing what I love to do. Like, I love that.

And so, I mean, for whatever reason, I love reading books like that because I feel like if I get one little nugget that, like, it's, like, totally worth it. And, but at the same time, I'm just kind of like, I don't know if this book was written for me. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like I'm struggling with a lot of the things that it seems like some of these types of books are written for. yes like i'm not struggling with with inner turmoil around a lot of this type of stuff i'm kind of like is that you know basically is that nature and nurture it's like is that just the way it is or or is that a lifetime spent outside being scared and i don't know yeah i mean i mean i i've like like how much natural anxiety do you have no i feel similarly to you okay like you just

never felt afflicted by like that wasn't how i operated in general yeah it was just not how i and i think it's because i was exposed to so much of it when i was young so i i think it is the exposure of being overexposed to discomfort, anxiety, pain, stress. But I've seen that go both ways. So I've seen that lead to people becoming free of it or having less of it or being able to know how to manage it. I've also seen it go towards people. Cripling anxiety. And then I've seen also people creating great success in order to protect themselves from it. And so there's almost like it can go in three ways. And so, it's not that simply being exposed to discomfort makes you stronger because it depends on how the

person reacts to it it's almost like there's this old story which i love which is like when you put three different things in boiling water the different things happen to them so it's like you put um you put a potato in boiling water it gets softer you put a uh uh egg in boiling water it would get harder harder you put uh coffee beans in boiling water they let out the best scent and so there's this old story that goes which one are you are you know an egg a potato or are you a coffee being. And so it's almost like the pressure of hot water. What does it do to you? And that's always been an interesting thing of do we get to choose that? Or are we wired that way? What does that look like? Yeah. I think about that stuff more. I have two little kids. And so, you know, like questions

of nature versus nurture. I just think about a lot more because you're kind of like, you know, are we having any impact on these children? Like, or are they just fully baked as it? How are you finding? I'm intrigued just to. Well, they're so young. It's hard to tell. But you just see so much innate in them when you're like, you're just your own little person. And, you know, there are probably things that we could do negatively to, like, negatively impact their development. But I don't know how much we're going to do positively. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like, I think they're going to be fine. But in some ways, it takes away a lot of the stress of parenting where you're just kind of like, you know, I'm not trying to like shape them into anything.

Like, I think they're going to be freaking great. We're just trying to make sure they're happy and safe and, you know, like have their material needs met and things and let them blossom into whatever they're going to blossom into. But we'll see. I mean, I'm just starting. I don't really know anything about parenting. We're just winging it. Yeah.

No, I remember a friend, like, we're not parents yet, but I remember a friend, like, they raised their kid where, like, their kid would be, like, playing with fire and, like, jumping up and down and running around. And it's like, and I would, I didn't know, I was much younger then, and I didn't know their style. And so I would get scared when their kid was near a candle or something. And be like, no, let the kid be near a candle. Like, they'll figure it out themselves.

Yeah, we're very much like that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'll just talk about risk taking all that. I mean, I definitely, I think with the kids, you know, obviously I don't want to see them get grievously injured, but I don't really mind seeing them get a little bit injured. It was like, seeing them fall down all the time. It's like, I mean, as a climber you just fall down all the time. And like, I mean, as a climber, you just get boo-boos nonstop. And so like with the kids, you're just kind of like, yeah, that's fine to get hurt all the time. But we're there to prevent catastrophic injuries. And like, and now we kind of see that already with the kids where you're like, oh, you know, they just seem a little bolder than. than some other kids their age, maybe. But then you wonder, is that nature, is that nurture? Is that because we allow them the latitude to explore like that? Or is that, you know, because it's my daughter and whatever, you know. I don't know. It's like my wife and I are already sort of adventurous people or like, and so our kids are too?

I don't know. Yeah. You know, it's like, we'll see. Yeah. Can you be a climber and be a perfectionist? I think, yeah, I think you can be. In some ways, I actually think, I think I'm a recovered perfectionist in some ways. Talk to me about that.

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that my mom is like a major perfectionist, like, kind of like psycho. And so I think we were sort of raised that way. It's like that's the, that's the norm. But I mean, but the reality is like I'm a very lazy person. Like I just often do the bare minimum and things that I don't care about or like the minimum requirement to, you know, whatever. And so I don't know, like how do you reconcile like perfectionist tendencies to be an incredibly lazy? You're sort of like, I don't know, it's tough.

And so now I think, I don't know, I think I've hit a real sweet spot where it's like I work really hard on the things I care about and then everything else I just don't stress. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that makes a lot of, I mean, that to me seems to be a trait of highly, high performers and successful people in general that they're able to know. Well, focus on the thing that matters. Yeah, and whatnot to waste. Absolutely.

And what not to waste time on. But it's taking me a long time to get there, I think. You know, because I think through early life, if you're just so hung up on like appearances and what you should be doing, what you think you ought to be, you know, whatever. And then eventually you're just kind of like, you know, I'm only good at a couple things. I just focus on the thing I'm good at and just do it and just be happy doing it.

Talk to me. I wanted to go back. You were saying that right now you're working out, diet, sleep. Like, walk me through what that routine looks like. I love learning about people who live incredible lives and their different systems that they have in place to be able to pull off great feats. I mean, yeah, it's all normal stuff. eat well, exercise.

I'm in treat. So I'm eating a vegetarian, basically, you know, mostly whole foods. I don't know, like dinner last night was like tofu, roasted broccoli and cauliflower and some like some purple sweep potato thing. I think that was it. Oh, and some Brussels sprouts. But it's basically just a bowl of like vegetables. And it's interesting because even like a couple months ago, I would have thought of that

as a sort of inadequate dinner, you know, but like the last several weeks I've basically just been eating like whole foods and no sugar and like wholesome meals and i'm kind of like you know i've just kind of like adapted to it like this feels good and i feel great and yeah i'm sleeping well and how much do you try and sleep and when do you sleep well basically i mean the babies have been waking up actually are we have like a there'll be two and four in february so right now it's like one in three quarters or whatever um but for whatever he's just waking up the middle of the night a bunch right now which is like a new i think it's like a developmental phase you know it's like she's suddenly made a leap, but she's saying way more.

But you're like, God, go back to sleep. You know, like, oh, man. But so we basically sleep from like 10 to 6 every day, like roughly eight hours every day. But then sometimes a little more or less. But then, you know, the other night I got up at three and then just like made a bottle from my baby and like did a whole other bedtime for it three in the morning. Like basically like read her a story and put her back to bed. And it was kind of like, huh, what an unusual night. Yeah.

So, you know, I can't take it too seriously. it's not like sure but you know it's enough though I mean we're sleeping well and vegetarian over a meat diet because I'd always care more about the environmental impact like just the the impact on the earth but I also feel like it's a little cleaner and I'm not like super uptight about it like I'll eat fish and in general I'll eat meat if it's going to be wasted

you know if like somebody has a serving I'm like oh well it's better than throwing it away but I just don't buy meat and I don't really do dairy I think you find that affects your performance too i think i'm kind of lactose intolerant a little bit and so i'm kind of like it's probably not like the best but um yeah it's just but again it's also better for the earth i'm kind of like oh it seems better right interesting the main thing for me is not eating desserts like not eating extra sugar it just keeps everything's going yeah definitely that's good so then that well i actually so interesting i'm maybe like two weeks in to eating really well right now and uh and you just lose the cravings yeah

you feel so much yeah once you get past that i go through periods of being completely off and then I have like, you know, during Christmas time, I'll probably dabble a little bit again. But when I'm off, I feel like my taste buds change. Yeah, you just feel so much better. Yeah. I know it's all the things you read about in books that you're just like, nah, that's stupid. And then you actually experience it. You're like, well, it does seem like it's true.

You're like, yeah, man. Imagine it's the 22nd of January. What do you do? What's your ritual the night before? Is it different? Do you have a retreat that's good to say? No, but the night before. A big client.

I mean, the day before, Bealresta. I might do some cardio or something to go for like a light run or go. they're a bunch of really cool mountains like in the city so you can go run around they're like monkeys in the jungle and stuff that's really cool so you can like run around in the mountains a little bit um so i'll probably do some cardio or something but basically no strenuous exercise and then uh people just go to bed early and you know just try to eat well and go to sleep basically you just want it to be normal yeah there's a normal day it's chill and then you wake up the next day and you do the thing yeah it's see it when i'm hearing you

speak about it which is really refreshing is that it's such a it feels like such a natural part of your life. Well, I think that's how you want to make it. Yeah, yeah. Because then it doesn't feel extreme. You know, it doesn't, like, it doesn't require some crazy thing that you do. You're like, this is what you do. This is normal.

Yes. And I can liken it to, and I'm only translating it because I'm always thinking about our listeners, but I can translate it to in the past, if I was sitting down with someone that I was a huge fan of and I built that up, it would actually make me a bad interviewer. Totally. Because you're all. because you're all like oh my you're on edge yeah and i would do that when i first started the show and and then over time people saw me relax in and he's in and sometimes i said to people i was like

it's not that i wasn't super excited it was just i had to contain it to do my job you're all keep a chill i got this yeah exactly so exactly what you're saying so with uh with free selling all cap like i knew it would be the biggest thing i'd ever do like i knew i mean i didn't think the film would be as successful as it was but um but i knew that it would be far beyond anything i'd ever done because it's a feature documentary and whatever and I knew the climb would be insane but at the same time you know the main challenge of free soloing is psychological like I had climbed El Cap with ropes you know many years before I'd climbed it without falling off many years before like technically I was physically able to do it many years before but the psychological challenge the believing

you can do it and you know when your life is on the line that like that's a that's a bigger challenge and so I didn't want to build it up even bigger in my mind because you're like the challenge is already psychological. I don't need to like pile on and make it even harder. And so a big part of my strategy with El Cap was to make it part of my normal year. And so like right after I free sold at El Cap, I went on this expedition to Alaska, which is like a normal as a professional climber. You go on trips to places. You try to climb new walls, whatever. And so it allowed me to look at my Yosemite season that year as kind of building up for Alaska. And actually in the Alaska trip was because I went on an expedition later in that year to Antarctica. And I was kind of like, oh, I haven't been

on skis in a while. It would be nice to like do some glacier travel and climb some big granite spires on snow because it'll be good for Antarctica. And so it's kind of like, oh, Yosemite season is building up for Alaska, which is building up for Antarctica. And so it took a lot of the pressure off having to achieve on El Cap or whatever because I'm like, oh, either way, this is practice for these other things coming up. And I mean, I knew that the other things don't freaking matter compared to free selling El Cap. But, you know, it's like, it's good to keep it, keep it feeling chill. And so, I mean, I've always been into sort of stacking my goals in that way and trying to make sure that you don't let them get too big.

You know, it's like you keep it all, I don't know. Yeah, so the building's kind of the same way where I'm like, obviously that's more important than some of the other things I'm working on right now, but I do have a bunch of other climbing projects that are sort of intermixed with the training. And so it keeps it all feeling mellow. Yeah. When you summit like an LCAP or anything like that where you reach the top, how do you find you process that feeling?

Like what does that feel like to you? gratifying do you experience it yeah no i'm psyched i'll be like this is amazing yeah i mean with l cap it was such a long and it was so on the edge of what i thought was possible and so it meant a lot you know it meant a lot to me i'd put so much into it and the pressure with the film grew and all the stuff i mean it was insane so i definitely was like this is this is amazing um i mean the building too i'm sure i'll stand at the top and be like this is awesome i'll be so psyched but then you know i'll take the elevator down and be like okay what a day i was like what a joy i'm sure i'll be glowing like until I'm back home but then as soon as I fly back to to my home in Las Vegas I'll

be back to normal climbing projects like things that because I wouldn't be at all surprised basically there's several other things I'm trying to do at home as a sort of build up and training for the building and I wouldn't be surprised if I don't manage to do any or all of them you know we'll see which things I managed to do and so as soon as I finish the building I'll just be back to try to finish my training goals basically yeah is it right you're talking about waking up and the baby being awake at night is this the first time you're doing a climb as father and husband? No, no, it's not.

I mean, I've done a handful of things that are, that are cutting edge with the kids. Actually, I did kind of my hardest like free solo to date for the spear. Like, it'll be this cool, like insane. There's a bunch of the same crew from free solo, so it's like the same, same co-directors and stuff.

And so it's really fun to get around back together. And we, and I free sold this wall in Jordan in the Middle East. It's like 1,200 foot sandstone wall. And it was probably, I told my wife it's like probably top 10 hardest things I've ever sold. But she was like, top 10 is like kind of hard. because I've actually done way more than what's in the public, like on film.

Because just building up to El Cap, I did like a ton of things that were, that are very hard. And so this thing for the sphere, that was probably the first thing I've done with kids where I was like, this is actually kind of cutting edge and pretty hard? And before doing it, I was kind of like, is this going to be different? You know, like, am I going to be up there thinking about my kids being like, oh, God, this is so scary now? But I got up there and I was like, this is this amazing wall. It's a really classic route.

It's famous. and it's uh it's really high quality and so i was just up there being like this is so amazing and i felt great i was like you can experience that endosphere in Vegas uh in next next fall i think so that's so cool that's awesome yeah we'll we'll see uh i think it's hard to film for something like that you know it's hard to shoot on these crazy cameras like i guess is amazing so we'll see what how it turns out but in theory next uh next fall it'll be a thing like that this might all need to get out yeah yeah yeah we'll like i don't know someone who's smarter than me yeah yeah i know i just I just, uh, I just, I just went to watch Wizard of Oz there. Oh, is it cool? But it was

insane. Yeah, I heard it's really cool. It was incredible. I was so blown away by it and I can't imagine, you know. Yeah, that's the thing is I think seen soloing like that would be like insane. It would be amazing. Yeah. It would be a real experience. On the podcast health stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night. Yes, I'm Dr. Priyankawali, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane Dibolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I Have Scurvy at 3 a.m? On health stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.

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Listen to starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama as part of the MyCultura podcast network available on the IHard Radio app, Apple. podcast or wherever you get your podcast. So it's interesting. You said that you've done, to hear you say you've done crazier, harder climbs that have never been documented. Well, not harder than L-CAP, but leading up to L-CAP, well, actually, so let's see.

I mean, I can remember. So leading up to L-CAP, I had three other routes that were very, I mean, they're similar. they're not as hard and they're not as big but they kind of led up to it and one of them got filmed for youtube basically and then the other two never nobody ever even saw them you know like like like one of my friends saw one of them with binoculars from the parking lot in this one area but like basically nobody saw any of the other stuff yeah one of them uh not only did nobody see it like nobody was even in the climbing region I went in and I'd been planning on prepping it for several days but then my van ran out of propane and it was like this insanely long windy road to go back to

town and I was kind of like oh I can't cook and so I was like screw it so I just did the soil the next day so I could drive back out and just leave because I didn't want to because I couldn't cook and I don't want to take a whatever so I was like well that's the ultimate like rushed solo you know you're kind of like nobody saw it nobody there was no plan I just like got it done and left yeah so I've done a lot of things like that over there's wow well do you um do you have conversations with your wife before you decide what you're going to climb and stuff or is this kind of like this is what I'm doing and yeah for no for the most part I mean when we first met I mean like have you seen the film free solo it all sounds pretty you know like like I don't care at all about her feelings and and I think that's gives a slightly wrong impression just because at that point I've been dreaming about all cap for you know eight years or something and then I'd met I actually met my now wife at the exact same time that we started filming for the the documentary so we filmed for sort of two years to make the documentary and so that was the first two years of our relationship and you know I was like oh she's amazing and this is great but you know as some random person I met six months ago like it's not going to get in the way of a life dream you know but now it's totally different because now I'm like oh we've been together 10 years we have kids we have a life together like you know I live with like my in-laws and you know it's all it's all much more tightly woven and so her opinion matters a lot more for projects now

yeah how did you know she was the right person I don't know she's just she's so great I mean um I think when I proposed there was I said something along the lines of uh you know like this is great can we just keep doing this forever you know like why not uh yeah yeah i've never been into the big like romantic gesture type thing because i kind of think the day-to-day life is like one of the things that i think is great in our in our like we have what we call sleepovers at night like basically at night we always chit-chat for a really long time um which is detrimental to our sleep but it's like but whenever you go to bed we always have like you know we chit-chat for a while and i'm like oh it's so nice you know it's like you want to have a buddy that you chit-chat with your whole life i'm kind of like i don't know i'm going to do that forever

I love that, man. Does she find, obviously, what you do inspire? Like, what's her take on it? Like, if she was here right now and I was like, describe what Alex does, like, how it feels for her. What would you say? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you know, she must be at least slightly impressed by it.

I mean, she didn't meet me at a book event. But at the same. She met you at a book event? Yeah. Well, actually, though, she didn't really climb at the time. Her friend was into it. And so her friend basically dragged her along, like, come to this event. And she had just gotten disillusioned with dating apps.

And she was like, the next person I see that I think is cool, I'm going to give him my number. And so afterward, I was like signing books, and she just gave me her number. And I was like, cool. And so I texted her and then, and now we're married, you know, long story short. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. But, yes, obviously she must care a little bit, but I don't think she cares that much.

Is she a climber too? Yeah, yeah. Now she's, she basically kind of started climbing at roughly the same time that we, she had just started when we met. And so now it's been 10 years and, you know, now she's quite a good climber. Wow, that's awesome. That's amazing. Will you ever do a climb together?

Well, we climb together all the time, not like extreme climbing. But yeah, we try to climb together as much as possible. Now with the two kids, it's a little harder for us to go out together. But then now, I mean, sometimes we go on sort of climbing trips as a family, and then the kids just run around the forest and play, and we boulder. It's like we're going to do a family boulding trip in France in the springtime. It's like a really famous bouldering destination. But it's amazing for the kids because it's basically a sandy forest

with, you know, nice soft trees and sand everywhere. So the kids just roam and play. It's like really cool. Is there a part of the world that you're fascinated by that you haven't visited yet? Actually, Southeast Asia. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm fascinated, but I've never been. I've always wanted to, and there's tons of climbing. But it's also kind of hot and humid.

And so I'm sure I'll go at some point. But honestly, I traveled quite a lot before I had my wife and kids. You know, I was kind of abroad, like maybe three months a year or something for climbing trips. And a lot of that now I'm kind of waiting until the kids are a little older because I'm like, if I'm going to travel, I'm going to take the kids and I want them to be old enough to remember it and have a real life experience. so I think in general our traveling is all a little bit on hold until kids are older and then I'm like really excited to show them some of these places do you believe your work has a message or a mission beyond personal joy and fulfillment and thriving in play or or is it truly that is it I mean, not that big of a mission. I mean, so part of the reason that I started the Honol Foundation a long time ago, I mean, I started this foundation that supports community solar projects around the world

was that, you know, I had a lot of work opportunities that I didn't necessarily need to take because I didn't need the money because I was living by myself in a band. I was kind of like, you know, I don't need to make this. I mean, this, a lot of this stem from one specific experience where I shot this a commercial for a bank and, you know, and they wound up airing the commercial a ton. And this wasn't even, like, it wasn't even for me as like a famous climb or anything. It was like sag rates or whatever, like screen actors guilds. I just signed the normal contract.

But they wanted to use in the ad a ton. It aired all over the world. And so I made, you know, like six figures or something off of like a day and a half of shooting. And I was like, well, there's no justice in that, you know. And the thing is is that it was work that I would have done for free because it's like you're going out with your friends and you're climbing in some spire and they're shooting with a helicopter. And it's super, you know, it's crazy. It's like super fun work. You're like, this is a total life experience that you would do as a.

rest day anyway. You know what I mean? Because like when you're shooting commercial like that, it's not like your training. It's not like it's hard. And so you're doing it as a rest day. And you're like, well, either I would have sat in my van and read all day or I can go like climb the spire with my friend with a helicopter. It's insane. So you're like, obviously you want to do things like that but I was kind of like I don't need the money from it. I don't like need to do this type of work. And so part of starting my foundation was kind of like, well, it's a nice way to funnel all that, you know sort of funnel the the notoriety the the you know the the the money like all that stuff can just go into something that seems slightly more useful yeah because i like saying yes to those types

opportunities but it's like but it feels kind of you know it's not like i'm saving up for a yi you know like i don't i don't need that and so it's nice to have like a reason to to funnel it all into something yeah that's that that's awesome and then i know you just launched your podcast planet visionaries as well right with uh yeah and furniture perpetual planet initiative yeah Um, yeah, actually we didn't just like, we launched the new season. I've done, I think, three or four seasons with them now. Um, but yeah, that's like one of my favorite, you know, we're, I mean, you know, like interviewing people that are interesting. And yeah, so with planet visionaries, I'm interviewing, uh, you know, conservation is like marine biology. It's like, basically people who are doing something useful in the world? And every time I have one of the conversations, I'm just like, oh, you come out of it feeling, uh, you know, inspired. Yeah, like, recharged in a good way. It's like kind of nice. Yeah. And so how are you picking? Are those people you know in a, uh, friendly with or are they people that you're just fascinated by her no they're they're often people working through the rolex perpetual plan initiative uh because rolex actually funds a surprising amount of conservation work like that people don't really know that but uh but so a lot of them uh you know

somebody like sylvia earl who's like her deepness she's uh she's like the jane goodall of the ocean um she's been a Rolex testimony since like 1950 or so i don't know she's like i think she's 90 she's still like scuba diving and you know creating green protected areas around the world trying to help protect the ocean. And so interviewing people like her, you know, they're just like part of this whole whole world. And then occasionally I interview folks. Like I've interviewed a few like grantee partners from the Haunted Foundation, like some of the organizations that we've supported doing community solar around the world, interviewed through them just to highlight the type of projects that they're doing and why those types of projects matter. I mean, we're kind of always

looking for good guests if you know, you know, somebody. Absolutely. Yeah. I was actually, Because I became friendly with Munia recently from Rolex, and she was telling me about the show and everything that they were trying to do with it. So I actually, there's a guest. I always, his name escapes him, but I met him recently and he was fascinating. So I left to, I'll have to tell him. Yeah, I thought of him to Munia too, and I was like, oh, I'm going to see Alex. I'll just tell him when I see him.

Yeah, we were doing, you know, the first season or two is like Rolex ambassadors and things like that. And then you're kind of like, well, there are only so many. And it's like, and so you started like broadening it out a little bit. We're kind of like, really anybody who's doing inspiring work. protecting the planet is worth I mean in many of the the guests that I talk to it's like it's interesting because they're doing conservation in a slightly different way or you know a slightly different approach I don't know I like to think of the interviews as like kind of mini little TED talks or

something where it's like what's the little nugget that you're trying to give to the audience like in what way can they see the world differently as a result of having listened to this so I don't know it's it's pretty fun fun interviews I mean as you know yeah absolutely absolutely yeah I'd love to I'd love to. I wanted to ask you, Alex, I wanted to share one more thing, but I'm going to wait for it to come through, actually, because I believe we have this. So I'm just waiting for it. If now is the good time.

Okay. Thank you so much, bitch. Thank you. Wow. This is so pro. I'm like, I need a teleprompter. I'm like, where's my? So we had to do it for moments like this.

So, Alex, we, you know, we were so excited about what you're doing. you know as I said I'm such a fan from before that it's it's really a joy to learn it's I find it so refreshing when I sit with someone who kind of bursts every myth that you have about the thing right like I think we all have certain it's like what you said the conversations you usually get asked or the kind of hype that's built up around this is how this person breaks through fear and what they do and then when I sit with you I'm like oh I love how the way you approach it is flow is play is real is life is joy is you know and and that's not what I would know or anticipate if I didn't sit with you deeply and have a really casual conversation with you yeah you think it's

all extreme yeah and I love that it isn't like you know it's beautiful when your when your bubble gets burst and the myth breaks because you get to understand a human on a deeper level and so we'd reached out to your mentor Tommy who'd sent a letter for you Tommy sent a letter yes oh my goodness Okay. Okay. Would you like to read it or would you like me to read it out loud? What would you prefer? What's better for you?

You should read it. It's for you. So I'll read it to you. Yeah. So he says, and all we asked him was for a letter for you because you were coming on the show. Oh, well, I'm already horrid. Do I need to leave? I'm like, I need to leave.

I'm like deeply uncomfortable. All right. So this is what Tommy said. He said, dear Alex, when this podcast asked me to write you a heartfelt letter, I had to laugh. Few things make one of the most mentally strong men in the world squirm more than public affection, especially from someone close, but I'm doing it anyway, because people should know the man behind the fearless facade. When I climb with you, mountains shrink to half their size. At first, I thought it was your systems and efficiency. But over the years, I've realized it's something deeper,

your unwavering belief in a positive outcome. More than free soloing, that is your superpower. When you believe things will work out, they almost always do. You've helped me see that so much of what feels heavy or scary in life is mostly imagination. Whenever I come to you with relationship worries or questions about how my kids are growing up, you reframe things until they suddenly feel manageable. And every time you've been right, you bring humor and lightness to places no one else could. Helping the people around you believe they can not only survive, but thrive. Your bluntness, your unfiltered honesty might feel harsh coming from someone else, but from you it builds trust. Everyone close to you understands it comes from a genuine desire to see people

reach their potential. I also wish the world understood your generosity. You create abundance in everything you do and then give it away to friends, to family, to everyone around you. We come from a culture that values obscurity, one that assumes fame dilutes intention. Maybe that's why calling you an entertainer feels strange. But you've shown that you can go big without losing who you are and if the is going to be entertained by anyone, I'm glad it's you. Knowing you and calling you a friend has been one of the greatest luck events of my life. I love you, man, Tommy. That's, that's really nice. I was kind of like, did he write this? And then as he got into, I was like, oh, no, he wrote this. Oh, no, no, we would never do that to you. Yeah. No, I'm like, no, that's incredible. I'm like,

that's the nicest thing. That's so nice. It nearly brought tears to my eyes reading it. It's the first time I read it. I've not seen it before now either because it's, it's it's uh yeah the team i'm i am shocked and you know i'm like what a nice man i wonder when he wrote this he actually stopped by our house just the other day they were driving for family thanksgiving so they just stopped for a night uh just to camp along the way i'm like oh so how did you guys be uh climbing i mean well he was one of my childhood heroes like he's one of the most famous climbers in the in the world and uh even when i was a kid uh you know he was one of the best climbers ever so i always looked up to him and it's like oh one day you know and be like him and then

at some point we just met on the road, you know, both like two climbers and I think we were maybe in Squamish, it was a spot in British Columbia. But then I sort of sought him out for a couple climbing objectives. And then once we started climbing together, it was like game on. Well, I loved what he said about you having the ability to reframe things. And would you say that's your superpower? Well, I mean, I think that's just normal. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, why build it up is bigger than needs to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. What do you say? He does jokingly call me an entertainer because I've done TV shows and things now. So he's always like, oh, you're an entertainer.

And I'm like, no, because, you know, I'd like to at least think of myself as like more of a high performance athlete or whatever. I used to jokingly call myself a high performance clothing model because when you're a professional climber, it basically means you're sponsored by apparel companies. And so I was like, oh, I'm a clothing model, but I send, you know, like I go hard. And now Tommy's like, oh, you're an entertainer. You're just like a TV personality. But I'm like, no, but send it, you know, as the thing is I don't mind being a TV person as long as you can actually do the thing you're trying to do, which is like. Like, climb hard, climb well, like do things that you're proud of. Yeah, absolutely.

But, oh, Tommy, what a sweet man? What else stuck out to you? What else was, what else was like? What resonated with you? Yeah. I don't know. It's just all. It's a beautiful laugh.

It's very heartfelt for a man who knew you were going to run out of the room when you heard. I know. That's actually the funny thing. Yeah. That, yeah, nothing makes me swirm like public affection. It's so true to somebody close. That's so true. yeah no i'm so i'm so impressed that you wrote this

well you can keep it uh yeah no like i should put this on my wall yeah definitely yeah absolutely frame it like what a nice uh holding to it as well do you do that for guests or that's like a thing you do occasionally very red that we don't do for everyone for the right type of guess yeah for the right guest who we feels at a exciting moment doing something new doing something fresh like interesting but it feels right that's such a nice that's such a nice idea It's one of my, it's one of my favorite things to do because I feel like, like he said, like I think in our day to day, we love people, but we don't, we don't say it like that. And you don't get many chances in life to reflect. And so I know I love reflecting on people and I've appreciated when people have done it for me. And it's, yeah, it's one of my favorite things to do. I have this activity I do with when I'm doing workshops in companies sometimes where I'll take a group of leaders who, despite achieving great things, their biggest worries that they're bad parents because they're so busy. and we always have their kids write a note to them and it's stuck under their chair. Oh, that's like...

And it's really special because... That seems like waterworks in the... Yeah, and you also get to see what kids actually value versus what you think they value. So you're thinking like, oh, when I bought them that big gift or when I took them on that fancy vacation, it's like that kid just remembered you've read a story to them before they went to bed last night. Like, that was the win. The win wasn't some, you know, grand gesture or some big event in their life. it was this tiny moment where you're actually present. But Alex, oh, go on.

You're going to say something. I'm just like, oh, I'm so touched. It's funny. I mean, you know, I just read Think Like a Monk. Yeah. And someone, one of my friends are just asking me like, oh, what are your takeaways? Like, what do you feel like you gain from? And I was like, oh, there's a lot, you know, around like kindness, compassion, things like, you know, caring service, like all these types of like.

And I was like, you know, I think I have a lot of room for improvement, all of those things. Like, you know, because there's a lot in the book that I'm kind of like, yeah, no, this is fine. I got that. And then, you know, basically the whole second half of the book, I'm kind of like, hmm, I'm like, that's, that's not quite my sweet spot. And we're like, yeah, like, there's, there's something to be learned there. It's like, oh, it's, yeah, just give something to think about, like, sweet Tommy. What a nice letter.

Sweet Tommy, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Alex, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence, maximum. And so, Alex Honol, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? I'll just go for it just try

that's my advice it's worked for you yeah yeah it's better I mean this is more than one sentence

but yeah I mean it's better to try something fail than to not try it yeah does second question does failure even

do you even ever think about failure well failure means death and yeah you think about it a lot no I don't know

can I give more than one sentence yeah go go go go go you freestyle I mean, yeah, because it's interesting because in climbing failure, like basically as a climber, you fail all the time nonstop. Like, as a climber, you basically try projects and you fail on them over and over and over until the one time you succeed and then as soon as you succeed, you move on to the next thing. And so, like yesterday, I failed on a project that I'm working on and off for like five or six years or something. I've been trying it forever.

It's like my life brudge. And I almost did it yesterday. And hopefully I'll do it on Sunday, which is the next day I get to go back there. But basically, I will have spent years, literally years failing on something. and then I'll do it once, which will represent about, you know, 13 minutes of high performance activity where I, like, try really hard.

It might even be less than that. I'm not sure how long it takes to climb, but it's like in the minutes. And then after, you know, years of failure, I'll have six minutes of success, and then I'll move on to the next thing. So as a climber, it's like you don't really define it as success and failure because you literally,

you spend all your time failing. Yeah, that makes a lot sense. Again, the exposure therapy is, like you're just always failing. But that's the whole point. The whole point is to go out and try things that are hard for you. So by that definition, not failing. You're just going climbing. Like climbing is failing. Yeah. Question number three,

what's something that you used to value that you don't value anymore? Sort of say. I mean, maybe like the public acclaim to some extent. I think, you know, when you're alone in your van, kind of like, I just want to like be known basically as you can get laid. You're kind of like, oh, I just want to meet somebody, whatever. And then once you actually have some of that, you're like, I don't really need all that. But how long did you spend in that van? I think I live in the van 12 years 12 years yeah I mean two different vans and yeah I mean I had some girlfriends on and off and very sayings and yeah but basically lived in the van from 20 to 30 yeah maybe a little more than that were you happy then oh yeah it's great but I just knew that I wouldn't

want to do that my whole life what was it that made you happy then but knew it wasn't what you oh living in a van is amazing when all you're trying to do is climb at your at your limit but barring even the obvious like you'll lose motivation you just don't care you know after 10 or 20 years of doing something nonstop, full tilt, you're like, you know, do I need to do another 20 years of that? And I knew that one day I had one family and, you know, it's like my aspiration is to die at 80 with grandkids around me. And it's hard to do that if you live alone in a van. Is that really the dream? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. That's the way some of my grandparents died and I'm like, that's a great way to go. Would that make you feel content? Like if you were looking back on your

life at 80, what do you think would stand out to you? Well, I don't know, my grandma, one of my last grandma daughter at 95, I think, you know, surrounded by family. I'm kind of like, that's a good way to go. Like, I would be delighted to have that play out. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, it's my wife. I named my daughter after my beloved grandmother. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and really, like, is there anything better? You know, it's like when you, when you're dying of old age, surrounded by family and you had a good enough relationship with them that they're naming their children after you, like great success and call it good. Absolutely. Alex, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I did.

No, I don't know, but I have all kinds of questions for you, but we can chat out there. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Alex, it's been such a joy getting to know you. I feel like I totally got such an education in what it really means to be fearless in a way that I didn't expect. And those are my favorite types of conversations where I'm pleasantly surprised, blown away, inspired, and excited to see what you do on the 23rd of Jan. And even though you won't care, I'll be rooting for you and cheering for you and watching.

but thank you so much and I hope we can stay in touch. Oh, no, I appreciate that. That was a total pleasure. Thanks, Alex. I appreciate it. That was awesome, man. Thank you so much. Great.

If you love this podcast, you'll love my episode with Lewis Hamilton. Lewis and I talk about why you should stop chasing society's definition of success and how to be more intentional with your goals. You don't want to miss it. It's not about being perfect. It's about just every day, one step of the time, trying to be better, trying to do more. I'm learning a lot about myself. I had to break myself down in order to be able to be better.

I'm I Belongoria. And I'm Maite Gomes Gron. And this week on our podcast, Hungry for History, we talk oysters, plus the Mianbi chief stops by. If you're not an oyster lover, don't even talk to me. Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracize is related to the word oyster. No way. Bring back the ostracon.

to Hungry for History on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What up, y'all? It's your boy, Kevin on stage. I want to tell you about my new podcast called Not My Best Moment, where I talk to artists, athletes, entertainers, creators, friends, people I admire who had massive success about their massive failures. What did they mess up on? What is their heartbreak? And what did they learn from it? I got judged horribly. The judges were like, you're trash. I don't know how you got on the show. Check out Not My Best Moment with me kept on stage on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Coben, and says, let's write a book together. I was asking him basically to let me into his secret thriller writing world.

This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup. Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller, Gone Before Goodbye. Can you think you're going to read for 10 minutes? And next thing you know, it's 4 in a morning. Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already in New York Times bestseller. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.