On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Alex Hormozi: This Is EXACTLY How to Make Your First MILLION (Follow THIS 4-Step Framework to Turn Your Ideas into REAL Money FAST!)

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Have you ever thought about starting a business? What would you do if money wasn’t a problem? Today, Jay sits down with bestselling author, entrepreneur, and investor Alex Hormozi for a practical and eye-opening conversation about money, business, and what it really takes to succeed. Alex has built and sold multiple companies and now runs Acquisition.com, where he helps scale businesses to over $10 million in revenue. In this episode, Alex breaks down why so many people feel stuck when trying to grow a business. Alex and Jay dive into the common mistakes that hold people back, like chasing passive income too early, mistaking passion for a plan, or seeking freedom without first building discipline. Alex shares the real steps you need to take to start making money now. He explains how to create active income by offering your time and skills, how to craft offers people can’t refuse, and why direct feedback is the fastest path to growth. Jay and Alex also explore the mindset traps that stop people from moving forward, including fear of judgment, comparison, and the pressure to get it perfect the first time. Together Jay and Alex highlight the importance of showing up consistently, being willing to fail, and choosing long-term growth over short-term comfort. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Start a Business with Zero Capital How to Create an Offer People Can’t Refuse How to Increase Your Income by Trading Your Time Intentionally How to Sell Without Feeling Manipulative How to Get Unstuck from the Passive Income Trap If you're ready to stop guessing and start building something real, this episode gives you the clarity, structure, and confidence to move forward. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:40 Get Clear on the Exact Actions That Drive Success 02:10 Why Most People Misunderstand How to Build a Business 04:26 Is the ‘Get Rich Quick’ Model Really Possible? 07:41 The Five Emotional Stages Every Entrepreneur Goes Through 10:52 Start Here to Learn the Skills That Actually Make Money 13:36 Should You Follow Your Passion for Income? 23:30 How to Make Your First Dollar from Nothing 27:57 The 10 by 10 Strategy to Build Proof and Confidence 32:27 Your Product Must Solve a Real Problem 35:37 What No One Tells You About the Trade-Offs of Business 39:40 How to Turn Your Job Experience into a Business 52:27 Redefining Success: It’s Not About the Outcome 56:07 Listen to People Who Are Where You Want to Be 01:02:18 Overcoming the Fear of Selling Ourselves 01:04:23 How to Influence Without Manipulating 01:10:17 The Difference Between Criticism and Insults 01:17:28 How to Break Repetitive Negative Behavior 01:26:15 When to Keep Pushing and When to Pivot 01:28:46 The Four Ingredients of an Irresistible Offer 01:37:02 Focus on Who You Want to Become Not Just What You Want 01:38:40 What Would You Do If You Weren’t Afraid? 01:42:46 The Simple Formula Everybody Has But Nobody is Doing 01:45:53 The Most Important Step Is Just Start 01:47:05 Is Work Life Balance Really Achievable?  01:50:35 Be More Productive by Eliminating Everything Unnecessary 01:55:17 Alex on Final Five Episode Resources: Alex Hormozi | Website Alex Hormozi | Instagram Alex Hormozi | Facebook Alex Hormozi | YouTube Alex Hormozi | LinkedIn Alex Hormozi | X Alex Hormozi | BooksSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to Alive Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and batter than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast,

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Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast. You can build something very big in about five to seven years. And the problem is most people spend that same five to seven years reliving

the same 30 days over and over again. You have to stay in that painful place. Staying in the pain is what gives you the catalyst to learn how to get out of pain. Please welcome a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and the mind behind a $100 million business portfolio. Alex Hormoz.

What's that number one misconception you hear when people are thinking about building a business and you go, that's the issue? I think they conflate sequence. A lot of people who are wanting to make money believe that the making money comes from investing. Investing is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do. How do you get over the block of, I don't want to work for free? I actually think it's entitlement. You're not working for free.

You're learning and then you're earning. Should you do what you love for money and love what you do? I think this is big myth number two. People fail not because there's some magical list nobody has. They fail because it's an obvious list nobody does. It's the obvious list.

If you're trying to get in shape, you know you should eat less and you should move more. You already know what you're supposed to do. The question is why you aren't doing it. What do you think is the number one emotion that people don't know how to control that leads to failure? Fear.

The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. Alex O'Measey. I've been looking forward to this interview for a long, long time. My friends are fans. I'm a fan.

And I know we were in touch like maybe even a couple of years ago now it's been, but I'm so happy to be at the holy grail of acquisition.com. I saw the big logo when I walked in. Congratulations on everything you've been up to. And I'm so glad to introduce you to my audience. Some of who I'm sure follow you already and love your work. And then I'm hoping you get a ton of new fans and a ton of new people being impacted through this as well.

So thank you so much for doing this. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I've been, I'd say I mirror it right back. We've been, I've been looking forward to talking because I think there's so much good stuff that I think is going to happen. So I'm very excited. I love it.

Alex, I want to start with asking you something that I've been thinking about a lot when I'm talking to people today. And it's when I think about my community, my audience who's listening right now, what are you going to unblock for them? When you, if someone read all your books, listen to your podcast, listen to today's podcast, what are they going to unblock that's been tripping them up,

keeping them behind or holding them back? I think they would have clarity on what actions were required to get what they wanted. And then at that point, they would only have to think why am I not doing it, which is a separate conversation. But there's a lot of confusion, I would say, around what are the things that are required in order to create a business, in order to create an income. I would say that I'm an objectivist, and so I just look at what are the things

that are observable. And I think a lot of time, people spend inside their heads trying to think about manifesting and energy and all of this stuff when it's like We got to let people know about the stuff we have we got to have something to sell and we got to make sure that What we're charging costs less than it costs to deliver it and we try and do that as many times as we can And so each of those pieces obviously has frameworks behind them But they're all tied to one thing which is just what actions are required and that's been this single

pervasive frame in my life that has made navigating reality significantly easier for me. Cause I was very confused coming up and I was like, I don't know what any of this is. And I read all these self-help books and, and I felt more confused after the 10th book than I did in the first book. And, and then it was just like, okay, what do I have to do? And then that is kind of what has started this journey for me.

What's that number one misconception you hear when people are thinking about building a business, making money, changing their financial situation. What's the number one thing you hear and you go, that's the issue. I think the conflate sequence is probably the first and biggest thing. Because a lot of people who are wanting to make money believe that the making money comes from investing and investing is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do.

And so one of the things is they'll look at people who are at the end of their investing is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do. And so one of the things is to look at people who are at the end of their careers and say, okay, well, these guys are making all these bets, right? If I just bought this meme coin or I just bought Bitcoin in 2013, I'd be super rich. But it actually doesn't take into consideration what a decision-making process like that would create, which is if you took a swing at every type of Bitcoin, because you can't just say, I would only pick this one, you'd have to say, I'd pick every single super long shot. It's like, we probably would have lost them 99

of the other bets. And so it's like, we have to take it in aggregate. And so I would say making active income cool again, rather than the passive bet and really just gambling is probably the first thing that people mess up is that they somehow think that working or active income is not scalable when in reality the people who have the most money typically have tremendously high incomes

and it's because of the excess of cash flow from that income are they able now to make big swings with riskier bets that sometimes pay off and sometimes don't. But you can't take those swings unless you have more cash flow that's coming in from the things you do every day. You know what? No one's ever said it that well, like from everyone I've spoken to. And I'm so glad you pointed it out because I completely agree. I have so many friends who, when they saw the rise of crypto or whatever it was,

jumped in with a large sum of their life savings because they heard of a friend, of a friend, of a friend who'd made a killing. Yeah. Put it all in there. A week later, it dropped by like 10 K. They pulled it all out. The next week it went up double and it was just a mess and so many of them lost like 10, 20, 30, 40,000 pounds, dollars.

And it's all because you're thinking that's the way to get there. Right. And it's cooler and it's smarter and like, you're a genius. Yeah, right. If you've, and you're right, actually everyone I know that's made amazing money on any of that already had tons of money and it was play money for them. Yeah.

So it just changed into this. So what's happening there? Why is it that we've been led down this thought process and how do we get out of it? I mean, I think it's fundamentally the something for nothing fallacy of like, how can I get rich quick? How can I do it really easily? And basically, the more it feels like luck is usually where you should have your first red flag. If you, I mean, I have a belief that if you control all the variables, then you can predict the outcome.

Now, we don't always control all the variables in any given situation, but the greater number of variables we control, the greater influence we have over the outcome. And if you're getting into something like this and you're like, I actually don't even know what the variables are, then it's like you are 100% gambling. And so this is your life savings. Would you put it on black at the casino? Probably not. This is really not that different than that.

Except at the casino, you have no nods at least. Right here, it's like you have no idea. And typically, by the time, especially gen pop kind of retail investors find out about something, it is the peak and it is too late. And so you have to be at the very beginning of these if you want to be speculative, which I wholeheartedly am not a big fan of speculative investments in general, because it's basically the greater fool theory, which

is what they call it in the investment world, which is just like, we just keep selling to the greater and greater fool until sometimes somebody is the greatest fool of all and then it drops, right? And so I prefer to think about, instead of thinking of investments and active income, I think of it just money per unit of time.

And that kind of takes out this binary or what I would consider a false binary, active and passive and think, well, and I feel like I can prove this pretty clearly, which is we live in time and we collect money in that period of time. And so fundamentally, all we wanna do if we wanna increase our income is just think,

what are we earning per unit? And this is where, again, bad piece of advice is like, never sell your time. It's like, okay, well, if someone gave you a billion dollars for an hour, would you not sell that? I would. Right? And so it's a question of how much is your time worth?

And then that creates a much more actionable decision making framework of is this worth it or not? And to ladder up to the active versus passive, it's how active is it versus how passive is it? And it's my belief that nothing is passive, because there's always going to be a certain amount of if you're doing it right. Let's say if you made one passive investment.

If you're doing it the right way, you probably should have looked at 100 deals and all of that took time and all of that takes diligence. And then after doing all this analysis, then you decide to make this investment. And so to say that it's passive, it's like it doesn't take into account all of the research that goes into ahead of time,

which is absolutely still work. Now after the investment, sure, but there's still time that you're trading. By first breaking that idea of like, in order for me to get rich, it must be something that I don't trade my time for, I think is like big myth number one. So if we assume that, then we say,

okay, I have to trade my time for money because money comes in over time. What are the things that I can trade my time for that will get me more than I'm currently getting? Which is a much more solvable problem that also is significantly less risky. And so especially when you're trading time, we have some. And so we really just risk the time.

We're like, I never want to sell my, I'm not a slave. It's like, calm down. It's a voluntary exchange. And here's the thing is, if you don't think the price is worth it, then don't make the trade. And that's one of the beauties of capitalism is it's two parties both saying they'll be better off. And so fundamentally, I would say the focus of the content and the stuff that I put out is,

how can I equip people with the skills so that when they trade that time, they get more for it and then continue to trade up and up and up for the rest of their careers. Yeah, I mean, that's actually such counterintuitive advice to what I feel has been spreading on the internet for the last two decades of every conversations around passive income.

I feel like every one of my friends is addicted to figuring out how they can make passive income. And those are the same people that are not making any more money than they already were. But it's this addiction and obsession with, if I figured this out, then I won't have to, I can quit my day job and whatever it may be. Yeah, and I've had influence. So my neighbor is, he owns Panda Express. And so last time I checked, they did $3.7 billion in revenue and they have about 27% net margin. So he took home $935 million in personal income,

not investment, income. And so people see his investment portfolio, which is impressive as you can imagine, been doing it for 45 years. And so that starts to add up, right? But the thing is, is you can only take these kind of bigger swings or bigger bets because he has this very regular cash flow that he spent 45 years building. And I would say that what's interesting is that you can build something very big in about

five to seven years. And the problem is that I think most people spend that same five to seven years reliving the same 30 days over and over again, jumping from thing to thing to thing, and never actually getting the roots set so that they can pay down their ignorance tax of not knowing enough. Basically, I would say there's five stages that most newer entrepreneurs or people who want to pursue income go through. So the first is what I call uninformed optimism. So your friend tells you about this thing they made 10 grand on, and you're like,

that sounds amazing. You're uninformed, but you're optimistic, right? And so then you get into it, and then all of a sudden you get to informed pessimism. So you get in, and then you put your money in, and then it drops, and you're like, wow, this sucks. And then people are like, buy the dip, and so you're like, okay, I'm gonna put more money in.

And so then you get to kind of stage three, which is the value of despair, where you're like, oh my god, I've lost so much money. I have no idea what's going on right now. And at stage three, there's kind of a fork. And so either people then go, well, my other friend told me about this other thing. And they jump back to step one and go to uninformed optimism.

And then they just funnel through that loop over and over again. Now, to break through that dip, you have to basically get to stage four, which is informed optimism. So, now you understand the rules of the game, you understand the variables at play, and it's not as good as you thought it was, but you at least get it. And so, from there, then you can get to achievement, which is the fifth step.

But the thing is that you have to stay in that third painful place because staying in the pain is what gives you the catalyst to learn how to get out of pain. And so rather than trying to pull your parachute, it's like, I have to trudge through this so that it forces me to learn the individual skills, the individual variables that affect this outcome. And that means I might have to take 20 more lashings to finally get it.

And then at that point, it starts to take up. And then that's when you start to become more of an expert, more of a master at something. Yeah, and if you don't sit in that pain, you're going to keep repeating that cycle with something new. So it's crypto, then it was NFTs, then it was whatever else just keeps going around and around and around. Is that system in this new book?

So this is probably for one chunk above that. Okay, got it. Got it, got it, got it. No, because I love the way you break down the journey that we go through in our mind and you do that with multiple things, because I think we don't even see it. No. Like that pattern you just explained is a pattern you could live for three decades. You've just saved people three decades of pain by pointing it out and saying, well,

this is what you're doing and here's how to shift that. And I think people make the mistake where we go, I don't have time to learn. So I'm going to learn from someone who makes me feel like I can learn it in an hour and then I'm going to do it, which still is uninformed optimism. So how do we learn? Where do we go? How do you build that time to say, how many hours do I need to even learn about this? I'm going to put money in it.

How would you calculate that? If someone was like, I'm going to put in a this? I'm going to put money in it. How would you calculate that? If someone was like, I'm going to put in a thousand, I'm going to put in a $10,000. How much time should they put to value that amount of money? So great question. I would reframe the premise, which would be we'd still be operating under this as I'm going to put money into something. And so I would reject the original premise and say, well, if you want to get really good at something,

then why don't we start with skills that generate income? And so if we follow kind of the three elements of a business at its most basic form is you have some element of promotion. So we got to let people know about our stuff. The second element is we got to have a way to convert them. So we have to be able to sell some sort of exchange mechanism. And then finally, we have to deliver, right?

So track, convert, deliver, very easy. Well, easy to say, hard to do, right? Within each of those things, it's like, okay, well, how do I let people know about my stuff? Or even before that, what stuff do I sell, right? And so that's where I like to think about it as people try to think, man, there's so many people and try to boil the ocean.

Like it's impossible to try and like try and think what business could I possibly start because you're trying to address the world when it's much to try and like try and think what business could I possibly start because you're trying to address the world When it's much easier to say what are the problems that exist in my life? And I kind of think about is the three P's like most businesses come out of a passion So something that you're just inherently interested in they come out of a profession So you currently exchange right now you have a job whatever it is and you get paid Maybe not as much as you want

But you do get paid for exchanging some sort of value with the business. And the third is P, which is pain, right? So there's some deep pain that sometimes you went through. So maybe it's a mom who had to figure out how to create non-allergenic food for their kids, right? It'd be something as small as that. And so from those three kind of buckets is I think the best starting point

for most people who want to start making an income. It's like, OK, well, if you're inherently interested in this topic, it's like, can we make, can we let people know about stuff around that topic? Can we create solutions around that stuff? Can we create services, which is where I prefer most people start, which, to be fair, in the United States, 78% of businesses are service-based businesses. And I think it's because they're the easiest to start. You just trade time for money.

Very low risk. You either get richer or you don't, but like your base is zero. Have you seen any metrics in success rates between passion, profession and pain? No, I haven't. I really want to know now. You're really fascinating.

The reason why I ask it is because I've been thinking about this for so long and I want to go through each of those because I think it's really sound advice. I used to really believe that everyone should try to do what they love and love what they do. And I've changed my mind about that. And I used to believe it very strongly, probably like 10 years ago, only to then

realize that that works great for the one to 10%. Yeah. But for the majority of people, that's going to be really, really hard. And recently I was giving the Princeton commencement speech for their graduation. And I was thinking about it a lot before I gave that speech because it's like, wait a minute, these are like the most talented, smartest people in the country who have everything at the disposal. And I know that even some of these people may not get a job they love or may never ever build something they love. But guess what?

Everyone needs money to survive. So the question is, and I want to hear your take on it and I'll reflect back is, should you do what you love for money and love what you do? I think this is big myth number two. So if we have, we start with, you know, passive versus active is big problem number one. Number two is follow your passion. I think the reason that this is so espoused, I'll start where I think the idea comes from and then kind of break down from there. I think it's because most of those commitment speeches are billionaires or very successful

people and they say follow your passion. But if we think through what other advice could they give that would be socially acceptable. They can't say, you know, I got lucky. They can't say, I worked, you know, super hard. To be real like, sure. You know, like, and so then it's like, okay, well, they're never gonna get attacked for saying,

follow your passion. But the problem with that is it also assumes that your passion or your interests will never change. And I mean, anybody who's listening to this, just think about what you were really interested in 10 years ago, it's probably different than it is now. And if you extrapolate that another 10 years, it'll probably be different again. And so if we can think about the hypothetical extreme of a really successful person is someone who sticks with the same thing for an extended period of time, which is something that I believe because you learn all the lessons you possibly can

in a very narrow field. And that you basically try and make as many mistakes as you can. And if you basically pay off all the ignorance that you can, it's like you end up just succeeding by default if you just fail every other way. But if you try and do too many things, you never actually get to push the road all the way,

trudge through the mud, and get there because you're only learning one or two mistakes in many fields and not many in one. And so the follow your passion issue is that, yeah, number one, the passions will change. Number two is that sometimes you're passionate about things that people don't value. And the thing is, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that it will be very hard to make an income that way. The third thing is that I think that it creates an emotionality around business or income, which is that the moment it doesn't feel good, that you believe the myth that you should

stop. When I think that if you and I were to talk about the business side of anything, there are elements that I love and there are elements that I hate. And I see them as both required. I would love to maximize one versus the other, but it's just the cost of doing business, literally. But I try to reframe that pain that comes from doing the things that I don't wanna do, to do the things that I do wanna do,

as the price tag required to become the person that I want to become. And so, if we think about the traits of any person, so it's like, if I wanna be patient, then I can't expect things to happen faster, right? Like if we were to go to the end of our lives and say, hey, I want these character traits. It's like, well, if you had to play a character in a video game and make them that way, it's like, well, what would you have to put them through in order to get those traits?

It's like, well, if you want patience, then you're not going to get things quickly. If you want to have endurance, it's like you have to be able to tolerate suffering. If you want to be wise, it's like you're going to have to get burned and you're going to have to learn the value of judgment. Sometimes that means you're going to have to get burnt and you're going to have to learn the value of judgment. And sometimes that means you're going to get betrayed in order to learn that pattern. And so it's like we lament the price tag for the things that we want. And I think that at least for me, my ultimate long-term goal is just to become the person, the best version of me. And I think that in order for that to happen, I will have to go through pain.

And so the follow your passion moniker also creates this emotionality that gets you to quit when you really are on the right path. And it's just part of it. And so I think those are probably the big three that I think about when it comes to why follow your passion doesn't serve most people. And the other, I'll say bonus four, might be that you might be really good at something and people are very willing to exchange money for that thing. And it doesn't mean that you actually have to do the thing that you work on,

that you make money on all the hours of the day, right? Like you can work for 20 or 30 hours a week and then have the other 120 to do whatever you want, 130 to do whatever you want. And that's, I mean, not a bad thing, in my opinion. Yeah, that's the reason I asked. And I think even the advice, follow your passion, doesn't mean focus on your passion. Right, like there's this confusion with like time.

So even when I think about it in my life, when I left the monastery and went to work as a consultant because I needed to pay the bills, again, a very real decision, because I was 25 years old living in my loft room in my parents' bills again, a very real decision because I was 25 years old, living in my loft room in my parents' house again. And that couldn't last very long. When I went into that work, I was teaching meditation by lunch.

Like in my lunch breaks and the evenings, I would teach meditation to my colleagues. There was no demand for it. Two people would show up. 2013 this was meditation and mindfulness were not this global movement. And I was just enjoying it because I was following my passion, but I was making money by being a consultant, which was trading my time for money. As I followed that passion more, I got more confidence in it. The market changed.

We're in a very different landscape today, 12 years on for there being business opportunities in wellness and health that didn't exist 12 years ago. And so now following my passion for all of that time meant there was a time when I could focus on it. But let's say I had another passion that wasn't monetizable, people weren't interested in it at all. I could follow it for years and bring it into my work and bring it into my life and it'd be beautiful and I'd be more fulfilled.

But it didn't need to be my thing, right? And so I really, really like that advice and it's something that I almost want to propagate so hard right now because I feel just responsible that for so long we've been telling people to, you know, just do what you love and chase what you love and it's like, yeah, in your private time and personal time, you should.

But don't think that that has to be the thing you make money from, especially if you have a really obscure gift. I 100% agree. I mean, I'm a utilitarian. I tend to be very, I've probably edged too much on pragmatic. And maybe that's the immigrant upbringing of just like, how are you going to pay your bills?

That's all I cared about. Well, the funny thing is I had that too. Yeah, no, for sure. I had immigrants too, but I think that there's a... I think I got really lucky to figure out what I loved really early. Yeah. And I got really lucky that I got to get really good at it really early. I had this mentor really early on in my career who said,

never do what you love because then it becomes work. And so just a completely counter take, and this guy was a guy who just had a normal, he had three or four stores that he ran and he retired at age 28. And not as a gazillionaire, I think he made something in the neighborhood of probably like 30, 40,000 dollars a month,

take home, and for 20 years he did nothing besides collect his money once a month and then he played golf five days a week and he got to hang out and basically be there And for 20 years, he did nothing besides collect his money once a month, and then he played golf five days a week. And he got to hang out and basically be there for the entirety of his kids. And he loved that. And that was that he accomplished. He used to tell me, he's like, I slayed the dragon of life.

And so what's interesting is that now that his girls are out of the house, he now is going back and he's back in the world. He's like, well, what am I going to do now? I wholeheartedly agree with the not following your passion piece. The practical translation might be, or at least my third myth that I would probably tack onto this as we're building these, is over belief in idea and under belief in execution.

Oh yeah, so true. And so there's two elements to this. So one is that I think many people who are, you know, intimidated to start believe that they have to start the next Facebook. And, you know, the Zuckerbergs and the basis of a world are so incredibly rare. The vast majority of people who got into business

have many, many failures, many, many failed businesses that led them to fail into success, right? And so one is that the idea has to be this big, amazing thing. And the second is that the idea has to be this big amazing thing. And the second is that you shouldn't, that the idea itself is the success, right? Cause they'll share with as many people as they can and they almost scratch the itch of starting

when you haven't done anything. I say there's basically four steps to starting a business. It's like, you have to get an LLC, you take the LLC to a bank, and then you get a bank account, and then you connect that bank account to a payment processor, and then you go ask a stranger if you can do something in exchange for money.

And if you do all four of those things, you have a business. That's it, right? And so a lot of people spend years being like, I'm going to start a business one day. It's like, you can do it tomorrow. You can literally do all of this tomorrow. And then it's like, okay, well then how do I get the person to exchange money?

It's like, well, you reach out to the people you know, right? You open your phone, you look at the 400 contacts you have there, you open up your Facebook profile, you have 300 friends, you look at those friends, and then you just say, hey, you sent a personal video, sent a personal text and say, hey, I am starting this thing. This is what we're doing. This is what I'm solving. Do you know anybody? That's it. And so it's not even like you're asking your This is what I'm solving. Do you know anybody? That's it.

And so it's not even like you're asking your friends to buy something from you. What's interesting though is that 90% of the time the person who responds is, oh, you know, you could do that for me if you want, but that just gives you the easiest way that costs zero dollars. And because we're all connected with the internet and phones, it's like the barrier to entry has never been lower than it is now. It's just the problem is that the barrier to distraction is even lower. What stood out to me there is the personal text,

the video and the email, and then the fact that you're asking your friends to introduce to the people who may want it, not asking them directly. That first part, the amount of emails I get, and I'm sure you get as well, of people pitching their services to you, but none of them are personalized. Walk me through the difference of that personal video, that personal... Because it's life-changing when it's done right.

Yes. So, I mean, these are your friends or at least your contacts that you've met at some point in your life. And so, trying to recall when you met that person, literally just stating their name and asking that it's, hey, I'm going to be doing this. And I would say consistency is the currency of credibility. So what people don't want to do is refer a friend to somebody who's fly by night. But if you can actually just demonstrate that,

hey, he's still doing that, the likely that they're going to refer someone goes way up because the relational capital is not nearly at risk. Because if I'm going to introduce somebody to somebody else, I'm risking my social capital on the hope that the third party or whoever's sending this original text is actually going to do a good job. And so you can also include a little bit of risk reversal in that, which is like, hey,

I'm doing the first 10 for free. And the reason I'm doing it is because I just want to get some testimonials, get some reviews, and also just so that I can learn too. And I think just being really upfront and being really honest about it makes the stakes feel a lot easier. And so then those first 10 people, you do exactly that. And the thing is that you're going to be better off than they will. For those of you who are like, I don't want to work for free, it's like you're not working

for free. You're earning and then you're, sorry, you're learning and then you're earning. And so we've got to go through the learn phase first. And the best way to do it is people who aren't direct connections of yours, maybe one step removed. And then at that point, they're going to give you very real feedback. And if you do a good job, then after a certain point, my goal is to get people to basically shift supply to man in their favor.

Like I say, the two laws of business that I am the most moved by are supply and demand, which is this act right here, and then leverage. So that's a fulcrum for leverage. And so I see those as the two biggest forces in business. And so I wanna create artificial demand for somebody who's starting out by just saying, we'll do a lot of stuff for free.

And then what happens is when you have no more time to give, and if people still want you to do stuff, and you say, hey, I can't take any more people, if you want, you can pay. And if you're like, yeah, that's fine. And then boom, and then you make your first sale. And so, and you'll have confidence because you're like, well, I just did it 20 other times,

and look at the results from those people. And the first one you'll be embarrassed about, the 19th one, you're like, wow, you're gonna already pay down 60, 70% of all the mess ups that you were going to do. And then at that point, you're going to start feeling good. And then from there, my way of doing it is just, you just keep bumping the price by 20% every five people until eventually people start stop saying yes. And then after like, okay, this is the price I can do for now.

And that's basically a very seamless transition into how do I go from nothing to making my first dollar? How do you get over the block of, I don't want to work for free? I actually think it's entitlement. I think it's believing that you deserve something for nothing. Like to flip the roles in reverse, imagine somebody comes to you, they've never done anything ever in this particular space, and they say, hey, will you pay me to do this thing?

Would you immediately, now maybe some people will be like, sure, will you pay me to do this thing? Would you immediately, now maybe some people would be like, sure, then it's a charity thing, which is different, but would you be like, you know what, I really believe that this guy is the best person that I can get this problem solved from, probably not. And so to carry some of that risk for yourself, you say, I'm gonna front this,

but if you want to not do it for free, thing number one is that you're getting educated. So like you're getting free education, which I see is absolutely valuable. The second thing is that you can make terms that don't necessarily mean that it's free. Like there's the price and then there's the terms. The terms of the agreement can be,

if you do this with me, you have to give me feedback throughout the entire process. And at the end, if I do a good job, you leave a review, right? And on three different formats and leave me a video and leave me a text version of it. That's now absolute, like I'll say it differently, a business owner, they do illegally, and so therefore they're very willing to

pay people to leave them testimonials. And so if you'd be willing to pay $500 to get an amazing testimonial, then they're basically, they've paid you that $500, but I promise you, those first five, 10 reviews will make you so much more than basically, they've paid you that $500, but I promise you, those first five, 10 reviews will make you so much more than they could ever have paid you and not given you a testimonial. So if we flip it and say, hey, would you rather get a thousand dollars from this person and

have them not leave a review versus free and a glowing review, I promise you, you will make so much more from one glowing review than you will from the thousand dollars long term. So you're just building up the stockpile, the foundation to then build whatever you want to build on top of it. Yeah, it's really strong advice. It's, I hope everyone who's listening and watching right now is like going, this is what I'm going to do right now, like 10 hours for free, because that's where we're blocking ourselves. We don't have the experience and therefore we don't feel comfortable selling more because we don't even know how the service will look.

Yeah. Right? And therefore we don't feel comfortable selling more because we don't even know how the service will look, right? So you're trying to sell a service and maybe you sold one, but you haven't been through the full life cycle of what it feels like to deliver that service. Now you don't know how many website revisions or edits there's going to be. You don't know how many app updates they're going to be. You have no idea. And now you're actually less likely to go sell another one because you're scared that you don't even know if you can do it.

And I feel under that entitlement is an insecurity of, I don't actually even know how to do this. Like I've got a lot of friends who are like really talented, really skilled. They actually would do a great job, but because they've never just done 10 clients for free, they don't know how it's going to be if they went and got a hundred clients tomorrow. So they're scared of getting a hundred clients, not because they're not capable, but because they haven't taken 10 clients through the process.

So I want to give you something super tactile for the audience. Please. Just 10 by 10. So give 10 people 10 hours. And so you can say, Hey, I'm going to do 10 hours of work for free. That is a really compelling offer and you're going to do it one-on-one and ideally with them. And so if you want to build the website, build it in front of them for the 10 hours so they can give you real-time feedback.

If you want to write email copy, you still meet with them once a week or not ideally multiple times a week during that, so you can pay down that 10 hours faster. If you're worried you can do five people for five hours, that matters less, but it's more that one-on-one, so the least scalable thing possible, and it's free labor that they can track. The reason that's such a compelling offer is that everyone, even in every country, even minimum wage has value. Anybody can understand that five hours of work is a material amount of work that you're choosing to give away for free. And so even if you have no expertise, labor at base price is still worth something. And so if you add on expertise, it becomes a very compelling offer.

that base price is still worth something. And so if you add on expertise, it becomes a very compelling offer. But the beauty of that setup of having five or 10 hours that you choose to spend is that there's basically, if you're doing a one-on-one, there's almost no technical component to it. You don't have to build all these calendaring and scheduling. It's just like, you're just gonna text those five people,

hey, you wanna do same time tomorrow, very simple. And then for each of those calls that you'll take with them, by the, in the very first call, you just say, hey, I want to just be clear, what's the problem? What do you want to solve? And do you mind at the end of the five hours we spend together, if this was good, if I can tell you about what I do?

If you just set that pre-frame up front, and then you do the hours on the fifth call or the fifth hour or the 10th hour, you can say, hey, remember I said at the beginning, I was like, has this been good so far? It's like, awesome, let me just recap what we've done, what we've covered and the progress we've made. Do you feel happy about that?

Great, so this is what I think it would look like. Because also you spent those five or 10 hours getting as much information or ammunition from them of all the other problems that you could potentially solve. And then at that point says, hey, I think that I can solve problem one, two and three. It'll take me maybe six months,

but this is what kind of an engagement would look like. How does that sound to you? That's all you have to do. And the thing is, is that after you give someone five or 10 hours, there's so much reciprocity that's built up, they're like, well, shoot, I mean, sure. Now, if somebody on the first call says,

no, I don't want to, then it's like, you don't even need to continue. And so one of the big things that I'm a big proponent of is absolutely give stuff away for free to people who are qualified. Yes. And so we're like, I don't want a lot of tire kickers. It's like, for sure, neither do I.

But if I had a room of 100 of the most qualified people, which if you're like, what are a qualified person, it's Bantz. So IBM made this, figured this out like 70 years ago, and it's really never changed. So Bantz's budget authority need timing. They have the money to spend, the ability to make the decision, they need the thing right now, and is it now a priority?

And so if we had a room of 100 people who met all four of those criteria, wouldn't you wanna do something and spend five or 10 hours for free? I mean, my God. Like, if you could, like the reason they sell time shares over six hour blocks of time is because it just takes time to build trust for a higher ticket sale.

So if anything, it's like you're choosing to say that I'm gonna give you five hours, but they're giving you five hours to influence them to ultimately prove that you're good at whatever you do. And so I think that is the easiest way to get started. You can make that your front end offer. You can put that in the video. And I think the beauty of that specific offer is that

you don't need to even figure out what you're going to sell because you'll figure it out during the time you spend with them. And so you can figure out the offer in real time with them. And also because you're doing it one-on-one, you can basically, you can, you can permutate it. You can, you can tweak it every single time you pitch it to somebody on the fifth or eighth call or whatever that ultimately gets you so many faster iterations that are low risk. Yeah.

Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. What happens when we come face to face with death? My truck was blown up by a 20 pound anti-tank mine. Let's hear that Western box. In return. I clinically died. The heart stopped beating. Which I was dead for 11.5 minutes. My name is Dan Bush. My mission is simple. To find, explore, and share these stories. I'm not a victim, I'm a survivor. You're strongest when you're the most vulnerable. To remind us what it means to be alive. Not just that I was the guy that cut his arm off, but I'm the guy who is smiling when he cut his arm off. Alive Again, a podcast about the fragility of life, the strength of the human spirit,

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ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying, you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now back to the discussion. You know, talking to you today and Alex, I watch your stuff all the time.

The thing that's standing out to me is, you're super tactical, there's all these methods, there's all these systems. But then when you were talking about your life, you were like, it's all about who I want to become. Is there a number that you stop at or is it actually who you want to become that's your north star?

I see entrepreneurship as the single greatest path for personal development. Because if, if we define, you know, learning as fast feedback loops, there are very few other professions that give you that much feedback, that brutally honest, brutally honest feedback as the market will do. And so at every point where I get stuck in a business, I think to myself, what skill do I lack? And I define everything by skill. So even traits, which is just a colloquial term, which is really just a bucket of many skills, I just think, OK, well,

in order for me to appear confident or be confident, it's really like 38 things that I have to learn. And all of these things, if I break them down easier, I can do them. So it's like, OK, when I shake hands, I make sure that I web the middle of my hand and I squeeze firmly and I look at the person in the eye. It's like, that's thing one.

Thing two is that when we're talking, like you nod because you've been doing this for so long, but some people who don't know how to have conversations just stand like this. But somebody who's an active listener will nod. They'll say, oh, that's a great point, whatever. And so it's like, that's the second thing. When I walk into a room, I'm gonna call people by name.

It's a third thing. And so when I try and think about these traits of who I wanna become, it's like, can I break these down into actions that I can actually do? And so I think that has been a large part of the growth that I've hopefully been able to achieve. But in terms of the ultimate goal,

for me, it's always just been to be useful. And if I think I just do that, then I like that it's such a simplified goal because being useful has, it actually includes multiple parties because you cannot be useful unless there's someone else you're being useful to. And so it gives you something controllable, which is that I have to learn skills so that I can serve someone else.

And that is how I can ultimately be useful. And so even when we're making content or whatever it is that we're putting out, I always try to think like, is this useful? Like, can someone actually, will this change someone's behavior? I'd be like, I want to educate. It's like, what is education? Like, can someone actually, will this change someone's behavior? I'd be like, I wanna educate. It's like, well, what is education? It just means same condition, new behavior. So if someone has said their same day over and over again,

then they're not learning. So if your day looks the same every single day, you have learned nothing. And so that means that if you listen to this podcast and then nothing changes about behavior as a result, this was just entertainment, not education. And so that has been just a very sobering point because you realize, oh, I have to change my behavior in order

to demonstrate that I have learned. Now, the second component of this is, OK, well, what's intelligence then? So intelligence, as I define it, is rate of learning. So how quickly do I change my behavior in the same condition based on some stimulus? And so in a very real way, you can influence your intelligence by being willing to change faster. And so if you've heard 10 podcasts and then you eventually change versus

somebody who listens to one and then changes, that person is more intelligent than you are. And so I see that as actually really encouraging because it means like, oh my God, I have an active control on how quickly I can learn simply by changing my behavior. And so that has been kind of my, my modus operandi for how I, how I, how I live life. Yeah. I want to dive into that, but as an aside, my... No, no, no. The reason why you'll get in a second.

As an aside, I've been really embarrassed in my handshake lately. It's because I've got a really bad case of tennis elbow. I've been playing a lot of pickleball. And so my elbow is destroyed. And so every time... I was on tour for the last month. And every time I shook someone's hand in a meet and greet, my hand was just like, literally, and I felt so embarrassed. But every time I did a proper handshake, my elbow would hurt anyway.

But so you just brought back all that trauma. I really appreciate that mindset because it's what you said earlier that it actually sets you up for long-term success. Even when things are not going your way, when the results may not go your way, when you're having to do the things you hate. Like it's only when that's your North Star that you can do all of that. Whereas if your North Star is just a number or just an exit or whatever it may be, it's really, really hard when you feel like that exit is just further and further away and that number is further and further away.

And I'm sure that you've met, I mean, so many entrepreneurs that they have their exit and everyone almost has invariably the same story. I went to a beach, I drank my ties for a month and then realized that this wasn't for me. And so, so one of the refrains that I have in my head all the time is, uh, you are the problem, like me talking to me, but like we are the problem. And so we have this issue where we fundamentally just always want what we can't have.

Single people wanna get married, married people wanna be single. And so it's more that we just want something different almost all the time. And so it's that desire, and you're the monk here, so you know more about this than I do. That's the issue, like that's the core problem. And so even everyone right now who doesn't have a business

is like, man, I would like to start a business someday. And then all the people who start businesses are like, my God, I can't wait to get out of this thing. Right? And so it's just there are pros and cons on both sides. There are tradeoffs. And I would say that if there was a fourth myth that we would tackle, it's that people want the benefits of multiple paths without the tradeoffs of each. And so I think one of the reasons, so there's lots of, you know, content of like, you know, talk to 80 year olds and they'll tell you, you know, their biggest life regrets. But what I find really interesting is that typically what they will do is they will assume all the benefits of their current life and say, I also wish I had the benefits of this other path without the costs of that other path that are unknown.

And also, they forget to subtract all the benefits of their existing path. And so I like to play it out, it's like, okay, well if I were to do this other path and make that trade, would I be better off? And most times it ends up just being like, I probably would be about as happy as I am now. It's like, oh man, the one that got away, it's like, you'd probably be about just as happy

as you are now as soon as you play it out a couple years. It's like, you'd probably be about the as happy as you are now. As soon as you play it out a couple years, it's like, you'd probably be about the same. And so that's actually dramatically reduced my kind of regret analysis from a living perspective. But I think the trade-off part is so important because, especially when you're starting out, or even when you're more advanced in business, there's what I call the fallacy of the perfect pick, which is that we overanalyze things because we think that we have to get it just right. Because we think that if we pick just perfectly, we'll find a way to get only benefits and no costs.

And it doesn't exist. And so instead, people just stay stuck thinking that there is some pick that they're not seeing, but it's just not true. And so I think the faster you're willing to make the tradeoffs and actually spell them out, like, these are the things I'm willing to trade. Because I think a lot of people, when they want to pursue any endeavor, they immediately think, and I think this is a little bit more Western, is that they think about addition.

They think about how many more things can I do? How many more things can I add to my calendar? But most, like right now you currently have a quote, full calendar. You live 24 hours a day and you do stuff. And so I think it's more valuable to think, what am I willing to give up? What am I willing to sacrifice?

And because we have to create space, we have to create this vacuum so that we can put this other thing in. And so those are the trades. And I think in the beginning, the trades are sometimes more emotional. Because in the beginning, it's more, my friends will think this is weird.

They don't want to get this text. What if someone says, oh, yeah, you're starting your business. I forgot. Or, oh, you're not coming out with us. Are you really doing that thing again? Dude, it's not going to. I mean, hey, man, I love you, man. I'm supporting you.

Or your mom's like, are you really going to pursue podcasting as a thing? I think like the, you know, the first rule of entrepreneurship is use what you got. Right. It's not waiting for some perfect condition because starting is the perfect condition. Yeah. That's where the profession part comes in, going back to where you are, like going back to passion, profession, pain. With profession, that's use what you've got.

Like you actually understand this industry. Maybe you even worked really hard to get a degree in it if you went to college, or you've had work experience since you were 16, but you kind of want to disregard that because you think there's the perfect pick over here and potentially the passionate pick over here. How do you turn that profession into a service aside us or a real business? What does that look like?

So what's really nice, the profession of the three is by far the fastest angle, for sure. Because you already have the thing that's valuable. Because you already do exchange it for money. And so the only thing you actually have to add at that point is promotion and conversion. So you have to say, how do I let people know about this thing that I'm doing?

And secondarily, how do I get these people once they find out to give me money, right? And so from a letting people know about it, I gave one of eight ways of letting people know. So there's warm outreach, so that's letting people know one-on-one about your stuff. There's cold outreach, which is one-on-one to strangers. You've got paid ads, right, which you can run

on any platform, or you've got posting content. Those are the only four things that one person can do. Now- That's a great breakdown. There's only four things. Cause you start thinking there's a million things I have to do. You've got strangers and people you know,

and you've got one-on-one and one-to-many. That's the four box. Now from those core four, you then unlock four others, which is that I can do one-on-one outbound or I can do or I can post constant or I can run ads to get customers who then get me more customers, to get affiliates or partners who get me more customers, to get employees who will then do these things on my behalf to get me more customers, or

to get agencies who will then do it as a vendor on my behalf. And so the first is everyone must start with the core four. Even if you get a bunch of partners who then promote on your behalf, you still started with a message that you sent to somebody. And so the core four is the first activity that you must do in order to promote. These other things are higher leverage, that makes sense, but this is the core four that you start with. Once you have someone who's responding to you and say,

hey, I'm interested in your stuff, which takes someone from a contact to an engaged lead, they've shown interest, then we basically have to take them from engaged to ideally somebody who's going to buy, right? And so that process, at the most basic level, is going to be a conversation that leads to a conversion, right?

And so I have a very simple framework that I encourage people who are starting out to follow, which I call Closer. And so it's an acronym, so it's easy to remember. So C stands for clarify, which you'd be giving conversations like, hey, why'd you respond to my thing? And the nice thing is that whenever you promote, you only are really gonna have a conversation with someone who engages back.

So you always have the reason why right at the front. So what made you comment on my post? What made you DM me after that? What made you respond to my ad? What made you even respond to my original message or call? So that you have that reason. So what made you do that? Clarify. Then you have L, which is you label them with a problem.

So OK, so what I'm hearing is, this is a problem and this is what you're trying to solve. Does that sound about right? OK, cool. Then we go to O, which is overview their past experiences. And so here, we're simply asking them more or less the same four questions, which is, OK, what have you done so far? How did that work for you?

What was good? What was bad? And then we try and tie that to our solution, the pieces that we can solve. It's like, oh, I think you might so far? How did that work for you? What was good? What was bad? And then we try and tie that to our solution, the pieces that we can solve. It's like, oh, I think you might like this because we have this other element. I'll get to that later. But, okay, this is great. What else have you done?

What else have you done? And so that's kind of a pain cycle. And the reason the pain cycle is important is because in order to increase motivation in the short term, we have to basically expand the deprivation around the thing that they want. And so we have to increase its priority in the short term to get them to take action. And that's why that cycle is so important.

The fourth is S, which is we sell the vacation. And so we want to talk about the outcomes of what the experience is going to be like once the problem's solved, rather than just having some long-winded pitch. And what's very interesting about the sell portion is that most people talk way too much. We try and get it to under 320 words.

So does it like people, if you can, if you can very accurately describe someone's existing condition to them and say, so it sounds like you're struggling with this and it sounds like you're struggling with this and it sounds like you're struggling with this. And if we solve this one, this is what unlocks. We solve this one, this is one locks and we solve this, this one locks. Is that about right? They're like, yeah, it's like, we can totally help you. A lot of times you actually don't need to sit.

If you nail the pain part, the pitch is very easy. And so I am a big believer in having three points in whatever pitch you have. So you can always chunk it up. You know, like I have our attract, convert, deliver. You have, okay, how do we get people to find out? How do we convert them? And how do we give them the stuff, right?

Having three elements of whatever it is. I mean, I used to do sales scripts for, you know, different companies back in the day. So it was like, I had a mortgage-lead company, and they're like, okay, well, the leads are timely. You want them to be qualified, and you want them to be exclusive. Okay, great. If you're in fitness, it's like you need a workout,

you need to eat right, and you need to have accountability. If you have all three, then you can't fail, right? And so there's always three, and then with each of those three, I have kind of in the back pocket a little anecdote to give an example of that. So that way it makes it more real for the person rather than explaining all the sets and reps and all that stuff, no one cares,

that's why it's selling the vacation, not the plane flight. We're not gonna sell how we're gonna get there, we're gonna sell where we're gonna go. And so once we do S, then we go to E. So at that point we ask for the sale. If they say no, then E and R come into play. E is explaining with their concerns, there's only five, right?

They're gonna have a timing issue, I've got a lot going on right now. They have a money issue, I don't think it's worth it. E is explaining whether concerns. particular thing about your product or solution, which is just saying that they want your results a different way. And so basically, once you understand how to overcome each of those five issues, which they are all actually just fallacies in decision making. So if it's a timing issue, it's not really a time thing, it's a priorities thing. If it's a money thing, it's not really a money thing, it's a value thing. If it's a decision-maker thing, it's really that they need support, not permission.

And then we rely on past agreements in order to say, hey, well, your husband knows that you're overweight. Do you think he wants you to stay overweight? No? Then why would he be against you doing something to change that? So just walking through those. And I go through all of them, but that's it. No, I love it. It's great. Yeah, this is a master class, man. And then from a stalling perspective,

it's actually helping someone make a decision. Because a lot of people don't know how to decide because you will have this conversation far more than every person you talk to. From a stalling perspective, it's actually helping someone make a decision. Because a lot of people don't know how to decide, because you will have this conversation far more than every person you talk to. People maybe only have five, 10 sales conversations a year. If you are selling for a business, you'll have four or five a day. And so you should absolutely always be more equipped than they are to solve the problem. which is, you know, I like, hey, I really want, you know, my friend Charlotte, she lost 30 pounds doing her thing, but can I just keep eating the food that I'm currently eating? And so they want their results your way. And so the easiest way to explain around that is if you change the variables, change the

outcome. Do you like the outcome? Yeah, well, then don't change the variables. And this is the only thing that I can give you confidence in. And the question is, is you eating the food you want more important than you looking the way you want to look? And that's a real question. And if the person says, yes, it is, and it's like, OK, well, then nothing's going to change

if you don't change. Yeah. And so then you get to have a real conversation. But each of those, those are the fundamental kind of ways of getting over them. And so once you explain the way the concerns, after each explanation, you always ask again. So does that help that? Does that solve that for you? Great.

So ready to move forward? You ready to do whatever the next thing is? And then finally is R, and the R actually happens after the sale and it's something that I added years later in my career, it used to just be closed. But the R is reinforce the decision. So in the 24 hours post purchase is when the vast majority of people either have cold feet or they regret,

or you can reinforce it and it becomes a super positive. And so people, believe it or not, there's tons of research that supports this, is that they will make a decision about your business based on the first 24 hours post purchase. So it's this huge moment where you can make a first impression that pre-frames the remainder of the relationship that you have with them.

And so being incredibly diatonic, hey, so you bought, let me tell you what the next steps are gonna be. We're gonna take these steps and we're gonna tie that to goal, right? So you said you wanted these three things. The way that we're gonna solve these three things is these three steps.

These are the actions you take. We're gonna meet tomorrow at this time. I'll see you there. Or if you have an onboarding rep, then you'd go from there. But that fundamentally is how you'd have the conversion conversation. And so to loop back to, if I'm a professional,

how do I do this? It's like, well, you're gonna use the core four. You're gonna reach out to people. Once they respond, you'll initiate the conversation where you go through the closer framework and then you make them an offer to do your stuff which will be either moonlighting or in the morning. And what's really interesting is that people think

that their nine to five is getting in the way of their dreams when it's really their five to nine. And so 5 a.m. to 9 a.m., it's like, it's four prime hours and then 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., it's another four prime hours. So it's like, you've got a full work day that you can work, which I strongly recommend. I think a lot of people are big on the burn the boats thing. And I think there's a time and a place for that.

But if you have a family and you've got a mortgage, I would recommend you keep your job. Yeah, I agree. And then supplement your income. And then at the point where your supplemental income in your off time surpasses your full-time income, that is when I say make the jump. And for me, because I actually believe in it, I tend to be a relatively risk-averse person,

I would say if you do that for six months, because there's going to be volatility in the business, and I'll also just play out the next problem they're going to have, if that's all right. Go for it. So much value. So volatility is a symptom of insufficient volume. And so if you feel like you're like, man, I got a couple customers and then the leads stop coming in. It's like, well, you're doing insufficient volume. You're not doing enough of the core four.

We have to post more content, we have to post more ads, we have to do more reach outs. That's what we have to do. And so if you think, OK, well, I've been doing these reach outs and no one's responding or things like that, one, we need to make sure that the offer that we have is good, which I think we started with the five hour thing. I think it's a great first offer. But under that assumption, if we do this, I have a rule of 100, which is that you do 100 per day.

So that means you're doing either 100 minutes that you're putting into posting content, and you post. And you post, to be very clear. And you post. You spend $100 a day on ads, or you do 100 reach outs. And if you want to be crazy, you can do all three. And so in those scenarios, the key is that you have to keep going.

And so if you get, let's say, you do the rule of 100, and you get one sale a week, OK, then that would give you four sales a month, roughly. If you're like, man, I that would give you four sales a month, roughly. If you're like, man, I want to go from four sales a month to 16 sales a month, the nice thing is that you actually have a clear input-output equation, which is that, okay, it cost me 700 primary efforts to get one sale. And so that volatility feels like it's only one, but it's because you're not doing enough. If I take that 700 and do 700 per day, then all of a sudden I'll be making one sale a day. that the quality feels like it's only one, but it's because you're not doing enough.

If I take that 700 and do 700 per day, then all of a sudden I'll be making one sale a day. And fundamentally, that little compression process is the only thing that separates very small businesses from very large businesses. Most small business owners have no idea how much more volume the guys who are ahead of them put out. I'm in a conversation at the very beginning of me deciding to make content after I sold the company, where I said, hey, I really want to learn this Instagram game and content game.

And so I talked to somebody who's a big influencer. And I said, can you analyze my stuff and tell me what I'm doing wrong? And he said, dude, you're not doing anything wrong. You're just doing too little. And so he said, pull up your Instagram. And I pulled it up. And I think I was doing a post every other day or something like that. And he's like, dude, I got four posts a day. And I was said, he said, pull up your Instagram. And I pulled it up. And I think I was doing like a post every other day

or something like that. And he's like, dude, I got four posts a day. And I was like, whoa. And then he said, pull up your LinkedIn. And I don't think I've posted on LinkedIn. He's like, I got 10 posts today. And he's like, pull up your Twitter at the time. Now X is like, nothing, right?

So he went side by side. He's like, I'm putting out 70, 80 a day and you're putting out one every other and you're complaining. And I was like, got it. And so the most people dramatically underestimate the amount of volume that is required and that volume has a great feedback loop for skill

because you do these iterations and you will suck and that is okay. And as long as you, like the process that I have for improving any part of any system is just do a tremendous amount of volume. Let's say we do a hundred whatevers. We look at the top 10% of the ones that got the highest response rate

or the ones that got the most views or the ads that got the most clicks. We say, okay, what was different about these top 10% compared to the other 90? And so the next 100 we do, we say, let's just try and just do the thing we did in the top 10%, we do it again. And that continual refinement process

has been key to all the stuff that we've done. It's just look at what worked, do more of that. And so if you were in the professional bucket, that is more or less kind of the approach that I would take to get that first dollar. Everyone needs to listen to that 15 minutes every day. I'm not kidding. That was the most amount of value

I think has ever been packed in the 15 minutes that I've ever heard in my entire life. And I'm not kidding. That is such brilliant, brilliant advice, totally broken down step by step. I mean, you could, I mean, you could make like 70 posts off of just the last 15 minutes. It was so, no, and I mean that I'm not just saying that because right now, as you're speaking, I've got so many friends that I've got in my head that are exactly

at that point and it's either the volume that's messing them up. It's either not having the plan to how do you pitch and convert. Two questions. The first is how do you stop being scared of sucking? Because a lot of my friends are scared of sucking. And the second one is why are we so uncomfortable selling and promoting and showing our work? So the first one, what's really interesting about the question is that I think that most

people are actually very okay with sucking. I think they're very not okay with being judged for sucking. And so I think that at the onset, we have to redefine success as trying and not as succeeding, or at least getting whatever desired outcome there is. Because failure and success are salt and pepper, they're married, one leads to the next. And so the idea is we wanna get as many failures out of the way as fast as possible.

And so it's like we wanna pay down that failure debt, again, as soon as we can. And so the very tactical thing that I would advise is, think about, we think, I don't want people to think that I'm a failure. It's actually not people. There's like two people that you hear their voice in your head.

And so when you actually get really clear on whose voice is that, because I'll tell you a real world example. So for me, when I say this sounds ridiculous, but just to show you hopefully how ridiculous whatever you think sounds, I'll share one of mine. So when I was thinking about selling my company, the offer was for 46.2 million and I was afraid that it wasn't enough to impress the people that I wanted to impress.

And so, and I had to figure that out. I was like, I don't know, I mean, is it worth it? Maybe I should just hold on to it longer and grow more and I went, you know, back and forth. And when I thought more about it, I was like, actually there's only one person whose opinion I'm concerned about. And then when I named it, when I was like, oh, it's Tom? Tom's the person. And like, I'm not even that close with Tom.

But Tom, my envisionment of Tom judging my exit as not good enough for their approval, I was like, wait, I'm letting Tom have this much influence over my life? That's absurd. And so one of the big reframes that I have in my head is that if you don't know why you believe what you believe, it's not your belief, it's someone else's.

And so if you can't explain like, why am I not doing this? If you can't actually explain it, it's because there's someone else's voice that is influencing you that you're not aware of. And so I try and- Name it. Yeah, the naming is the key part because as soon as you see that, you're like, Tom?

You're like, screw Tom. We're like, I want to do this. It's like, is Tom's approval worth more than the dream that you want to pursue? And as soon as you get that, you're like, hell no. And then you move forward. And I can tell you just from the other side of this, and I want to be really clear.

I understand how scary it is. It took me six months to quit my job. And I talk to my friend every single day saying, this is the day, this is the day, this is the day. And when I did finally quit my job, I drove across the country. And I only called people from home when I was already halfway across.

I didn't tell anyone I was leaving, because I was so afraid of what they would say. So I say this as somebody who absolutely gets it. But I just want to tell you from the other side of it It's you know, this is a lay look what not me but it you know Fear is a mile wide and an inch deep and so it looks like this vast ocean of like I'm gonna drown but as soon as you take the first step you're like, oh, this is a puddle and There's a quote from Jocko Willock that I love this recent. It's been top of mind for me, which is

besides death all failure is psychological. It's just when you, the longer you think about it, the more you're like, wait, all failure is just me drawing an arbitrary line in the sand that I say, anything that does not meet the standard will force me to be upset. And so it's like, okay, well, if I don't die, then I can keep going. And if I don't die, then it means I can stand it. Yeah. And I think a big part of it when I'm listening to you is because it's

psychological, let me know that it will happen. So I remember when I put out my first video, which I didn't tell anyone I was going to do, I spent two years watching videos before I made one and put one out. And when I put out my first video, I remember my friend saying to me, you talk too fast, the music is too loud. It's edited badly. Cool. Like it wasn't received with praise. Now I didn't think about that too much.

And now if I go back to advise someone, I'd say anticipate that. Because if you anticipate it, then it's okay. Then it's an inch deep. Right? You're like, oh, okay. Well, yeah, they're probably going to tell me that the editing wasn't great or whatever. But if I followed Alex's advice, maybe I have sent it to a couple of people, you know, not friends, but people who actually know what they're doing.

I've got some insight. I've studied it well enough and maybe I'll avoid some of them, but guess what, I won't avoid all of them. There'll still be someone who criticizes the tone, what I'm wearing, how I look, whatever it is. And as soon as you know that, you go, oh, that's all it is. Someone's going to look at it and be like, yeah, I'm not sure. And it's like, oh wait, their reaction doesn't change my reality. Like their reaction will always be there.

And I think what we're trying to do, going to your earlier point as well, is we're trying to avoid the reaction. We want to create something that has no negative reaction. And there is not a single person on planet Earth that has created a song, a movie, a podcast or whatever it may be that has had no negative reaction. So, I have so many quick thoughts on this. So, number one is that if you do nothing, people will criticize you. If you do something, people will criticize you. If you do something, people will criticize you.

So criticism is a fixed cost, period. Number two, it takes about 20 hours to become proficient in just about anything. You want to play guitar, like proficient in just about anything. It just takes people 10 years to get the first 20 hours. And that's a huge, huge issue. The third is that when you're thinking about feedback is one, not all feedback is created equal. You don't want to listen to the people who are closest to you.

You want to listen to the people who are closest to your goals. And so listen to the people who are already at your goals, who already have achieved those goals and listen to their feedback. Because I'll say, for example, for me, like if I, I mean, I rarely do, but if I post anything of me at the gym,

the only people who comment are people who are smaller than me. No guy who is bigger than me ever has talked about my fitness stuff. And so to the same degree, anybody who's a real entrepreneur is going to be like, hell yeah, man, you got out there. Oh, of course you failed. Obviously you failed, but that's okay. Everyone falls the first time from the matrix.

And so expect failure. And I think that if you can play it out, there's a really wonderful framework on this, which is the frame of the veteran, which is if you were to imagine whatever bad experience occurs happening a thousand times more in a row, how would you feel in the thousandth time? And if that's how you're gonna feel in the thousandth time with the exact same condition,

you might as well feel that way today. And this has been a really, like, if you're like, man, I hate traffic time with the exact same condition, you might as well feel that way today. And there's just been a really, like, if you're like, man, I hate traffic. It's like, let's assume traffic is a constant and it happens for the next thousand days. You'd probably be like, well, it's just how it is. Right. And so this is just how it is.

That's the feedback that you're going to get from the videos and it's going to keep happening and it's okay. Yeah. Your point just now of the problem is it takes us 10 years to get the first 20 hours is so true. I know something that I've, because people often like that to me, like, Jay, how do you solve a problem? I'm like, if I think something's a big problem to solve or a skill to learn,

I will cancel every evening plan this week and I will cancel my entire weekend. And all I'm doing this weekend is figuring out that skill. I'll get a coach. I'll commit to the time and I'll be around that community of people. Those are my three practices or things to develop a skill. And then this weekend is dedicated to getting good at X. And it's like, if I don't get enough hours in this weekend, the next four weekends are dedicated to that thing.

And all of a sudden in a month, I've solved a problem that could have taken me six years. And so I love that piece of advice because I think it's the same advice when you give people like, Hey, just try three things out. And then they're like, okay, I'll try three things out one a year. And also when you give it 12 months to try one thing out, you actually never know. Whereas if you did something for a whole day, like I remember when me and my wife were in Hawaii, we both grew up in London. We never went surfing or skiing and things like this, right?

We're in Hawaii, we try surfing. We do it the whole day. I knew I was never going to be a surfer and it's the last thing I want to do. And I don't care at all about surfing. It looks good, but it is not fun to do. Like I didn't enjoy the process. And I'm like, but if I went like for 30 minutes one day, then I'd be like, oh, well, maybe I just didn't do it right.

And then you're like, okay, I'll go 30 minutes next year. I'll do an hour next year. And so we just keep elongating the kind of failure rate or knowing how quickly something's important or not. I think it's getting completely immersed and just soaked in whatever the thing that you're trying to pursue. So I'll tell you a comparable story.

So when I was, when I had my first business, I was, I've never been a tech-oriented person. Now, I try not to speak that over myself, but like, I'm working on it. And so I was, I have to learn how to build web pages. I hate relying on these IT guys. They're slow. They don't build it the right way.

And so this is right as some of the early kind of software say come out. And I had put it off and then I finally said, both days this weekend, I'm locking the doors, I'm closing the frames, I'm turning off my phone. And I just had a simple page, I said, I'm just gonna copy this page. I just wanna see if I can figure it out.

And I set two full days aside and I finished it by noon. But I had put it off for weeks. And so most times it's almost like fear is a mile wide and an inch deep, so is ignorance. It's like, it's more than you expect, but less than you think. Yeah. Right?

You get in and you're like, oh, there's only four parts to this. OK, I think, OK, now you want to wrap your arms around it. And I think that's why having these kind of longer intense sessions, you kind of drink all of it up. Because if you did multiple 30 minute sessions, for example, it's like, it'll take you the first 15 minutes to get back into, where did I just learn last time? And then it just, it's very hard to make progress.

And so I'm a massive advocate of full shutdown days. I mean, drink your coffee, get your good night's sleep, and then put your earplugs in and then like lock in. Yeah, absolutely. Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. I'm Radhita Vlukya and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast.

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not just to my constituents, but just generally, like I carry that weight with me because you've seen it up close. Yeah. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the You Versus You podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, flowing childhood trauma, family,

overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be like harder,

but sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden. Is it wrong to want more? We migrated our family migrated here I'm like second generation Listen to you versus you as part of Michael Tudor podcast network Available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And back to our episode. Absolutely. And then the second question was, why are we so uncomfortable with selling, promoting

ourselves, putting ourselves out there? So I would put this two separate buckets. So one is the promotion, which is kind of public embarrassment, public harassment, you know, that stuff. Right. The second one is, why am I scared to ask this person for money? Right. And so I think on some level, it comes down to some people

feel like imposters. They're like, I don't deserve this and things like that. But I think there's a very tactical way to overcome that, which is you outwork your self-doubt. And so if you've done those 20, and I think it's people who haven't done the 20 who feel like imposters, but if you've done it 20 times and you're like,

I know what's gonna happen next, and I know what your problem is, and I also know I can solve it. And so your conviction goes up because you're not exaggerating anything, you're not puffing your chest, you're just one of my big rules of persuasion is state the facts and tell the truth. And so you're like, listen, I've done 20 of these.

You have the same issues as these people. This is what I did for them. I think I could do the same thing for you. We're not exaggerating. We're not claiming anything. We're just saying like, this is what's happened. And so I think that that will dramatically decrease the anxiety around the conversation. The second piece is the fear of rejection in the micro. And so it's always overstated because the worst thing

they can say is no. And then you say, okay, fine, no worries. Not a big deal, I'll just ask somebody else. If anything, sales is like dating, it's a numbers game. You have to be willing to say, and this is why I like rule of 100 a lot is, have 100 conversations. And I promise you, your anxiety will go down,

because you'll just habituate. And so, and this is the psychological way of actually curing phobias. If you're afraid of spiders, the fastest way to cure spiders is lock you in a room with spiders. You'll have a couple panic attacks. You'll pass out. You'll wake back up.

The spider's still there. You pass out, wake back up. And eventually, you're just like, all right, I'm used to it. And so that's also one of the telltale signs of an experienced salesman, is that in the close, when the stakes are high, their pulse is the same. It's because they've done this before. And so we just have to get you to the we've done this before part

as fast as we can. What about people who feel like the approaches are manipulative? Or these tactics are like, you're preying on someone's vulnerabilities and insecurities. And of course that person wants to lose weight for their partner and you're playing to that. Like, what about someone who feels that way? And that's what gets in their head. Like, oh, I know I have a valuable service. I know I want to help people, but actually like they should want to do it themselves. I'm not going to convince them.

So I'm going to, I'll define two things. So one, I see the process of selling as arranging the variables to increase the likelihood a sale occurs. That is a selling process. And so we want to use all the variables we can because if we can control the variables, we control the outcome. And so I see then underneath of that, the difference between help and manipulation is intention. And so you use the exact same variables to influence someone's purchasing decision.

But if your intention is to scam them out of money and not help them, then for sure, I hope you feel all the feelings that you have right now. But on the flip side, if you know that you're gonna do your absolute best and you've not misrepresented something, and I think this is the key part where people feel the imposter syndrome is because they misrepresent. If you state the facts and tell the truth,

most of your anxiety goes away. And I have this conversation sometimes with entrepreneurs, even at a million dollars a year, five million dollars a year, and they're like, I just feel this imposter syndrome with my business. And I'll say, are you stating anything that's not true? And then they'll kind of look at me and they're like, well, you know, I teach agencies how to, you know,

grow their customer base. And I'm like, okay. And why do you feel like an imposter? They're like, well, you know, I had an agency and it just really wasn't that successful. I'm like, okay, are your clients successful? And they're like, no, the clients are successful. I'm like, okay, are your clients successful? They're like, no, the clients are successful. I'm like, okay, so what do you teach them

that you were not able to do for yourself? And they're like, well, I was actually just really good at the sales side, I was really bad at the delivery side. I said, if you just say, hey, I had an agency, I was really good at selling customers, really bad at delivering on them. But if you're good at delivering on them and you need a sales process, I can help you.

I was like, would you feel like you're being an imposter? He's like, no. I was like, and believe it or not, that's actually more compelling because you have a sales process, I can help you. I was like, would you feel like you're being an impostor? And he's like, no. I was like, and believe it or not, that's actually more compelling because you have a damaging admission, which actually makes you, it's one of the components of persuasion, right? Like you just tell people all the things that are not good because when you tell them the good things,

they'll actually believe them more. And so I would tell, you know, I was in the gym space for a while. And so, you know, a gym owner would have, you know, a bad location and bad parking. And they're like, you know, it's embarrassing. And I say, included in the ad, just say, hey, by the way, we don't have the newest equipment.

Our parking is terrible. We have a tiny location, but we have the best workouts on this side of the Mississippi. And if you say that, then it's like, people are like, I love that guy, because he told the truth. And so you'll be significantly more persuasive and have less anxiety, but just state in the facts and tell the truth. And so you'll be significantly more persuasive and have less anxiety by just

stating the facts and tell the truth. And if the facts aren't compelling enough, do the free work so the facts are compelling. Yeah. Oh, I love that so much because I'm thinking of a friend right now who has a service he offers and he's always scared that he's a one man band and he's scared that companies are going to ask for a service. And he's almost embarrassed of saying, well, I'm just one guy. And he wants to present himself as a company. Yes.

And I'm always saying to him, well, no, tell them because you're one guy, you can actually be there, you're present, you're doing all the work yourself. You're committed. You're not just rolling out something that everyone else is doing. So I have an awesome frame for this. So when we had our software company, Allen, which we sold in 21, it was a software that helped agencies kind of manage schedules, it did automated texting stuff back before all the new stuff. our software company, Allen, which we sold in 21. How do we compete against you? And I said, every position has an advantage.

And so you are gonna say, man, Alex isn't gonna be the one taking, you know, he's not the one taking your calls. He's just gonna, you're gonna be client number 77. He's not even gonna know your name. You're gonna be assigned to some account rep that he pays, you know, nothing to, and of course we paid well, but like, I don't know. You know, he just pays way less

that he onboarded in two days. And like, that's the level of service you're gonna get. Whereas with me, you get the highest person, you get the CEO and you call me, I'll respond immediately. I'm the one working on your account. So don't compare the size of Jim Lundsch, the size of my company, compare the person you're actually gonna work with.

And am I gonna be better than his rep number seven? Yes, that's a compelling pitch. Now, if I'm flipping the table, I'm gonna say, listen, this guy's in his mom's basement. He hasn't proven any track record. We've been here for 10 years. And the reason we've been here for 10 years and we've gotten so big is

because we're actually good at what we do. And if we work at it, what we do, we wouldn't be this big and we wouldn't be doing it for this long. This guy has no process. He might be gone tomorrow. We both have advantages that we can cater. So there's no position on the board

that doesn't have advantage. You just gotta play what you got. Again, rule number one, right? Yeah, and the idea of pointing it out is just so masterful because that's what's blocking us. It takes away, we're all trying to be everything to everyone and we want to portray that we've thought about every part of the puzzle and we're the one stop shop.

And I feel like whenever anyone says they're the one stop shop, there's nothing there, right? Because it's like, well, wait a minute, there's no way you could have figured out this and this and this and this and this. With just you. With just you and you've been in the business for two years, right?

Like it's just not possible. And so, and that's so freeing. Like I'm hoping people hear that and just feel so much lighter and go, tell the truth, state the facts, and that's it. You know, and they're ready. And if they say no,, state the facts. And, and that's it, you know, if they say no, that's okay. Because honestly, if they say no, then they weren't going to be a fit.

Yeah. And so I can promise you some of the best deals are the ones you never do. Because right now any business owner can tell you this, like there are customers that you're like, I wish we did not ever talk to this person. Right. And so like, you're just avoiding some of these things that are going to be calamities later. So you might as well just get it up front and the thing is is that when you set those expectations

It just it creates such a clean relationship from there on it's like these are the expectations you can set This is what I will do anything outside of that I'm not going to pretend like I have done it now if we want to figure this out I'll be figuring it out with you and if you if you like the stuff out here I can apply some of those principles, but I haven't done it I want to be upfront about that and so where's the imposter syndrome? Where's the fear? It's like, there shouldn't be any. And it's all about the deception piece.

And I think that's where, that's where people get in trouble. Yeah. The other thing I've learned about that is that I feel like people who win watch winners and people who fail watch losers. And so when I look online, or even if I talk to people, I get a lot of this where people will be like, I can't believe this guy has like a hundred thousand followers. Like have you seen his stuff? Like it just sucks.

Like, Oh, I can't believe that this guy like has a business making a million dollars, like, I mean, he hasn't even got, you know, and so there's a lot of this where you find people who are not winning are constantly, whereas like, I'm sure if me and you were talking about something, oh, it's all like, dude, did you see what this guy did? It's amazing. Like, do you see what, you know, whatever. And so I feel like there's that ideology

that we get stuck in where we're like, I know I'm better than that guy or that girl, whatever it is. I know I'm better, but I'm not doing anything about it. And that hurts me even more. Can I tell you a story about this? Yeah. So I know you, I think you've had Kylie Jenner on this. Not Kylie, I've had...

You've had Kendall. I've had Kendall, yeah. Kendall's a dear friend. Well, then I'll tell you the story. Oh, I know the Kylie story from you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. When she became a billionaire. Yeah, yeah, I've watched the video, man.

I'm in, man, I'm in your content, I'm there. So Kylie became a billionaire. I'm 27-ish at the time. And I'm making, I'd say very good money. And I thought I was the-ish at the time, and I'm making, I'd say, very good money. And I thought I was, you know, the man, right? And then here comes this girl who's seven, eight years younger than me, and she's crushing, you know, she crushed it, and she was better than I was.

And my first response was ego, being like, hey, Christian is her mom, she's had her life set up since day one, she's been on reality TV for all, you know, I had all that, all that narrative. And then underneath of that, I was like, chill, what can I learn from her? Right? And so I have the fundamental belief that if someone makes more money than you, they know something that you don't know,

and in that you can learn of them. And I think that that allows every single person in the world success to serve you. Yeah. Literally you just flip the world into like, these are all the different lessons I can learn from all these people. And I think one of my, it's the sort of Gryffindor,

but I love this quote that was on it. I love Harry Potter. Okay. But it was made of, you know, Goblin's steel or Dwarf's steel. And it was, it only took you in that, which made it stronger. And so you, you know, hating on somebody

in no way makes you stronger. And you're trying to point out all the deficiencies. It's like, you are the thing that you are afraid of for yourself. Like you're gonna point out all this person's deficiencies and your big fear is about the fact that other people are gonna do that to you. So first start by stop doing it to other people

and start trying to find what are the things that they're, because the thing is, it is a fact. They are better than you at something. And I think like you have to accept that. As much as you're like, that guy's got 100,000 followers. Well, and he only had one viral video. It's like, well, he's got one more than you do. What was it about that video? Now let's start tackling that.

And so like from Kylie, the thing that I learned was brand. I was like, she's got a big brand. And then I was like, okay, I need to start looking at that. And that's what kicked off this entire journey for me even making all this content stuff was that Forbes cover. That was like, that was the thing for me. And so, you know, Kylie, if you ever watch this,

like you're a huge influence in my life. I love that. We'll get it. We'll get it to Kylie. I love that. And what I like about that is that criticism doesn't cure envy and also success doesn't cure envy. It's only study that cures envy.

Like that appreciation, that admiration, that's the only thing. And envy is that thing that when I coach people and I've been fortunate enough to coach musicians and actors and whatever, and there's two questions I always ask people is, the first thing is who do you envy? And there is no person on the planet, even in the 0.001% who doesn't envy someone that I've met at least.

And then the second one is who's your God or what is your God, whether it's money, time, energy, whatever it is. And those two questions sum it up for people. And what I've found is that success just doesn't take away envy. So even if you had become a billionaire in the next 12 months, that still wouldn't have taken it away because she did it at 21. She did it at younger. I can already tell you.

Yeah, exactly. And so it's like that's what's so fascinating about it is that we just, you become successful by what you get, but you become fulfilled by what you lose. And losing envy and losing comparison and losing criticism leads to happiness. So when people say money doesn't buy happiness, it's not that money's not important, money makes you successful and it's great. You should get it. Happiness was never in the equation with money.

That wasn't the point of it. Like I love having awards and accolades, but they were never in the equation of happiness. They were in the equation of success. And the equation of happiness was envy, ego, illusion, lust, anger, all of this stuff. And so it's funny how the equations get like, you know, crossed over.

Yeah. Oh, I just, I loved everything that you said. No, I just, it really resonates hearing about it from your story and also just like breaking it down for people and making it really simple and going like, let's stop demonizing people who are selling well or making money and doing this thing because it leads to a certain part of the puzzle. But then let's also remember that you wouldn't be who you are today if you hadn't got over that envy right at the beginning. So let me toss this in that I think might be helpful.

So one of the quotes that I don't like is comparison is the thief of joy. And I'll explain why. Because I, so I think comparison is incredibly valuable feedback tool. Now what we want to be clear is the differentiation between criticism and insults. And so insults are attack on someone's character saying, and I'll give you an example, and a criticism is a difference between expected and reality, right, or desired and actual. So I expect you to be on time and you are five minutes late. Okay, cool.

So I say, hey, you were five minutes late. This was the expectation. This is what happened. That is criticism, right? Insult and you're lazy. And so if we can pull those things apart, we can take the good of... Because I think our brains are comparison brains. Like it's how we orient ourselves in the world. Where am I?

And very tough, maybe years and years of monk study can maybe get you out of it. But I think for the vast majority of people, comparison is going to be fixed in their brain. And so it's like, we wanna use that, we wanna use that skill of learning to point out the discrepancy between where they are and where I am so that I can create steps so that I can get better. I want to completely eliminate and erase insults.

And also on the flip side, if someone insults me, this is a side note, but like, the big fear that many people have on promoting or selling is that someone's going to say something bad about them and so that they're going to get insulted. And the biggest reframe that's been helpful for me is simply translating all hate or insults into he lives his life in a way that I would not prefer. And it just comes down to that. I can't believe he's married to this person.

He makes this kind of, why does he think he, like, he lives his life in a way that I would not prefer. And that is just, it has really boiled a lot of the hatred down to like, oh, well, I mean, you live your life in a way that I would not prefer. And that's fine. That's why you have your life and I have my life and hey, more power to you, man. And that is just like really quelled a lot of the concern

because I'm sure like you, I get an unending, you know, deluge of hate comments just because if you put yourself out there. Like, again, if you do nothing, you will get criticized for doing nothing. If you do something, you'll get criticized. So criticism is fact. It is a fixed cost. Yeah.

And then, yeah, and that's why, like, I agree with you on the comparison point, and that's why I look at comparison as two kind of brothers, study and envy. And so that's the choice you have. Like, we have to compare. Comparison is a fixed cost. Like, you's the choice you have. Like we have to compare. Comparison is a fixed goal.

Like you're going to compare because the brain is wired that way. And it's either I compare myself with envy or study. And those are my two choices. I'm going to compare. And so this idea of never comparing yourself to anyone is actually a lie and a myth in and of itself, because if you never compared yourself to anyone, you wouldn't have goals, you wouldn't aspire for anything. You wouldn't become better. There's no feedback. Cause you can't say, well, this wouldn't have goals, you wouldn't aspire for anything, you wouldn't become better. There's no feedback.

There's no feedback. Because you can't say, well, this is where I was and this is what happened. Like that is a comparison. And so I say that because one of the things we have is feedback as fuel, right? And so it's like, I want as much fuel as I can. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And that's such a, you know, you've said the word feedback has come up so many times. Today, you mentioned it so many times. And to see feedback as fuel is the only way to have an iterative, constantly evolving process. And I find that, you know, there's the famous quote from Albert Einstein where he said,

insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And feedback is the way you don't do the same thing over and over again, you can change it every time, but so many of us keep doing something, even when it doesn't work, hoping for that different outcome. Why? We don't change the email copy. We don't post at a different cadence.

We don't up the volume. Yeah. We, it's just like, we're just, you know, I've got so many friends who'll upload a video, delete a video upload, you know, it's like, we don't change that. And then we're still going, we're just, you know, I've got so many friends who'll upload a video, delete a video, upload it. You know, it's like, we don't change that. And then we're still going, wait a minute, what's going on here? So my worldview on why anyone does anything is that they've been rewarded for doing that in the past.

And so, you know, one of the, one of the really difficult things with language in general is that there's descriptive and explanatory language. And so for example, I'll give the simplest example, you know, Timmy really difficult things with language in general is that there's descriptive and explanatory language. And so, for example, I'll give the simplest example. You know, Timmy stole a bike because he is dishonest. Okay, well, if we define dishonest, we would say, well, dishonest people steal things. But that's a circular definition. It doesn't actually help.

The explanation of why did he actually steal it is because he's been rewarded for stealing in the past, and so he repeated that action because it got him something good. And same thing goes for lying, same thing goes for cheating, all of these things. Like why does someone do it? It's like because they've been rewarded for doing so in the past, they've been reinforced. And so why do people do anything? And my worldview is somewhat different than I think of many people's because I come from everything from a behaviorist perspective, but it has made me significantly better at business because I get better at predicting behavior. And so I'll give you a simple example.

So there was an exec at one of the companies, and I was talking to one of the other owners, and they were like, hey, this guy said that he would leave if we changed his title or whatever. And I said, okay, well, how many times have you changed his title historically? And he said plenty of times. And I said, OK, has he ever left? And the answer was no. I said, so based on his history of behavior, I would say that he says these things to decrease the likelihood that you do it, because that's his preference.

But the likelihood that he quits as a result is low. And so it's like those kind of deconstructions, some people just take things at face value. It's like, well, if we actually try and find the explanation rather than the description of the event, we can get way better at predicting behavior, including our own. And I think that's where people are like, I want to get back to the description of the event, we can get way better at predicting behavior, including our own. And I think that's where people are like,

I want to get back to the trauma of whatever. It's like, maybe, can I go into this? Because I think this might be helpful. So- I love the direction you're going. Okay. So many people will use trauma or some event and they will create a narrative around why haven't I started?

It's because my dad didn't hug me enough as a kid and I don't have this confidence. So they just create this big story. And then they're like, I need to go see a therapist so that I can untangle all of this. But if I were to say, hey, I'm gonna teach you how to serve in pickleball, right? We wouldn't have the first session be, hey, do a serve.

And then you would serve, not ideally if I'm a pickleball coach, right? And then I'd say, okay, so for the next few weeks, what we're going to do is we're going to try and go back in the past. We're going to try and figure out why your serve is so bad. And no, we're just going to say, change your wrist like this. This is how you do it. And so it's so much more productive to just focus on what do we need to do instead rather

than trying to figure out why you did it, because the reality is you're never gonna know. It's a convenient narrative and it might make sense, but at the same time it could just be that you were rewarded for doing something like this in the past period. Now there might have been conditions that created that reward and you can lament the person, but at the end of the day,

the only thing you can do about is change behavior. And so trauma, which is tossed around a lot, I define as a permanent change in behavior from an aversive stimulus. So I'm a bad thing. So you permanently change how you act because of something bad that happened. Now the question is, is trauma bad? Well, did the change in behavior result in increase or decrease in likelihood of achieving

whatever goal we have? And so if a kid touches a hot stove and they say ouch and then they never touch hot stoves again, then that was a traumatic event by that definition and it's probably good trauma because they never touch hot stoves again. then that was a traumatic event by that definition, and it's probably good trauma because they never touch hot stoves again. So decrease the likelihood they die in a fire, great. And so sometimes it's like, well, then maybe we can be grateful for some of the quote traumas that we've had because it permanently changed my behavior in a good way.

Now, if we have quote trauma that permanently changed my behavior in a negative way, so I had bombs and saw someone die in front of me, and the next time I hear a loud noise, I freak out and I can't perform my job, then that would be something that decreases the likelihood. But then at that point, rather than trying to figure out the triggering event in the past, we just think,

okay, how can we recondition this person under similar conditions so that they can act this way instead? And so trauma, what ends up happening is it becomes an accelerated learning event. And so something bad happens, your brain's like, pay attention, because it's like, I'm going to learn, and I'm going to permanently change our behavior

to make sure this doesn't happen again. And so it's not this, and I hear this because a lot of people will anthropomorphize, make human or try and biologize, that's a word, go for it. Something that occurs, it's like it's stored in your body, and it's like, we're not computers, right? It's just that you have a behavior set and all we have to do is change these behaviors

and then it eliminates. And so the reason, so this all started with feedback. And so the reason feedback is fuel and what makes feedback good versus bad or rather useful versus non-useful is the latency of the feedback, how quickly do you get it and how specific is it? And so if you say, hey, that sucked in the moment,

not helpful. What it will do is make me less likely to do the thing in front of you, right, if you said that. On the flip side, if you were to say immediately, hey, real quick, when you do your intro, raise your tone a little bit at the end, because I think it'll actually create more curiosity and people want to stay longer. Okay, do the intro again. There, I have a very specific piece of feedback, and I did it immediately so that the likelihood that you change behavior is really high,

and maybe that it sticks. And so the reason feedback is full, and ideally if you're trying to change someone else's behavior, or even your own, it's like I want to seek out very fast feedback that's as specific as possible to the behaviors. And so I tell this story a lot, because it's a story that we tell inside of our company,

because it's almost become lore. But we had a director, super proficient, very competent in his role, really high performer. The problem was that everyone said, he's such a dick. And the thing is, is that I really liked his performance and I want to decrease the likelihood that I get complained to about him. And so he had four different people in the company

have like one-on-ones with him being like, hey, I need you to stop being a dick. And the thing is his behavior didn't change. And so I was supposed to be like final boss in the situation and be like, all right, let's have this sit down. And so I said, hey, I don't care if you are a dick on the inside, I would like to decrease the likelihood

that other people describe you as one. And so I wanna be clear, I have no judgment. I just wanna change the likelihood of this outcome. And so that kind of took the personal attacks out of the conversation. And then it was like, okay, so what are the behaviors you do skill-wise, as minutely as possible, that get people to say this about you?

So it turned out it was you interrupt people on calls, you tell people how to do their jobs, and it was two other things, whatever it was. And so I said, so next time you have the desire to tell someone what to do about their job, you have two options, either say nothing, or say, hey, I heard this thing that might help, do you mind if I share it? If you just say that first and if they say no, then just be like, hey, I heard this thing that might help. Do you mind if I share it?

If you just say that first and if they say no, then just be like, okay, no worries. Or they say yes, then now you have permission to share it. And when you share it, share it in terms of behaviors, criticism, not insult. And so I just had to change a couple of those things. And then within a week, people were like, oh my God, he's had, he's at night and day, he's a different person. They create all these narratives. Maybe it was because his mom did hug him.

She called him, or because we told him what to do instead. And so I bring this up because I think many people do not take action around pursuing their dreams because of narratives that they create about their past. But the reality is that none of that matters because all we have to do is just say, what do we need to do instead under these conditions?

And if we take that premise, then you need to learn. And learning means same condition, new behavior. And so if every day is the same for you, to your point of insanity, then you have the same conditions. And if your behavior has not changed, then maybe you are insane. Or at least for expecting a different outcome. And so that, I think, makes it significantly more palatable

of just change this one thing and then run it again. Yeah. How does someone who's taking that feedback, trying to get better and the results just not changing, they're not getting closer to the outcome? Two questions. The first is how do you know when it's time to give up and how do you keep going when things are not working? So this is, there's a handful of what I call like eternal questions that I don't think, there are more dichotomies to be managed than problems to solve. And so how much should I consume today versus invest into tomorrow? How much risk am I willing to take? Which is the classic, should I push or should I pivot for an entrepreneur?

And the answer that no one's gonna like is that it's actually up to you. So there's kind of like good failure and bad failure. So good failure is like, I tried something and I saw that it didn't work and I realized what I needed to do instead and I'm going to iterate continuously. Bad failure is where I have an assumption

that the world of the conditions were gonna be this way, and my assumption was false. And so if I believe that people really wanted to have dog Zoom calls or whatever, right, Zoom made for dogs, let's just take a ridiculous example, well then I would have to take a couple of need to believes of like in order for this to be successful, these four things would have to be true. If I find out after starting some iterations

that one of my three or four assumptions that underpin this being successful long term is not true, then I should not keep trying to pursue this. And that is where I would say we need to pivot. In a situation where none of the conditions that I, or none of the need to beliefs have changed, all of those conditions are still the same, and it's a deficiency in skill, then that is where I would push. Now, how long will it take is gonna be completely predicated

on how quickly you can learn and the quality of that feedback. And so to your point, I think you said coach community and what was the other one? Commitment. Commitment. It's some sort of consistency. Yes, and so the commitment part, if you wanna increase your commitment to anything,

so I define commitment by the elimination of alternatives. Right, so marriage is the ultimate commitment. You eliminate all alternatives, right? And so it's like, we wanna get married to this opportunity. We get married to this business. We have to eliminate all alternatives, which means So marriage is the ultimate commitment. You eliminate all alternatives, right? And so it's like, we want to get married to this opportunity. We get married to this business. We have to eliminate all alternatives, which means when your friend says, hey, I made 10 grand doing this thing, you say,

that's amazing. I don't know anything about that. And I know two months of suffering from this one, and I'm going to start at zero there. So I'd rather be two months in on this one. But with that push or pivot, we have to just take things to the natural extreme, which is how I like to do it, which is, OK, well, if I do this for 10 years and I keep getting better,

do I think it's likely that I'll succeed? And the answer is usually yes. And so it's like, well, then I just keep paying down those iterations. And I think Naval said, it's not 10,000 hours, it's 10,000 iterations. And I tend to believe that. Your new book's called 100 million dollar money models. It's like, you know, I think there'll be people listening who like, I just want to make a hundred K a year. There'll be people saying, I want to make a hundred K a month. And then there'll be people saying, we want to make

a hundred million dollar business. What's the difference at each of those levels? And what do you share in here that you haven't shared in the hundred million dollar series before? So, um, I'll take those questions one at a time. So I'll start with the second question, which is, what's different about this book? So offers answer the question, what do I sell? And so is an offer so good people feel stupid saying no. So basically broke down the components of an offer.

So we gave a little example of one, five hours for free. It's a very simple offer, right? But there are offers that you can include guarantees, you include scarcity, you include urgency, you include bonuses. And then the actual core value of itself, there's a way to increase the value of anything. So we use something called the value equation, which is probably the most known framework

I have, which is there are four, people say like, create value. But when you say, how do I operationalize that? If I say to a five-year-old, create value, they're like, I don't know what that means. And so how do we break that down to behaviors? So one is that some dream outcomes are going to be more valuable to somebody than something else. So if I go to a guy and say, hey, I can make you rich, or I say, hey, I can make you good looking,

most men in general will say, I'd rather be rich. If you go to women, it flips the other way. But for them, that means that the outcome itself is going to be some outcomes are worth more than others. That's one element of value. The second element of value is perceived likelihood of achievement. How risky is it?

How likely is it to occur? So if I said, hey, I can make you rich, and it's guaranteed, it's going to be significantly more valuable than if you have to take an easy amount of risk. The third variable is going to be speed. So from the time you make the decision to the time you get what you want, hey, I can guarantee that you're going to get rich, but it's going to take 20 years. Plenty of people make that.

But a lot of people are like, well, but now it's 20 years. I want to get rich tomorrow. Right? So time is going to be a component of it. And then the fourth component is effort and sacrifice, which is two sides of the same coin. Effort is all the things that you must do that you don't want to do be a component of it. that happens guaranteed, that is immediate, and that they don't have to do anything for. Now, no offer is that good, but those are the hypothetical extremes,

the ideals that we strive towards. And I think that's a beautiful thing for entrepreneurs is that all we try to do is just get closer and closer to all four of those pillars. So that is the core of the offers book. The leads book is the core four. So we went over earlier. So how do you promote anything?

And so that book takes all eight of the components, core four you do, and then the core four that other people do on your behalf, and breaks down in nitty-gritty to see step by step how to do them. This book answers the question, how do I make money? Right? And so it's like, okay, well, I know what to sell, and I know how to advertise it, but how do I turn that process into making money? And so most people, like the thing that separates when I look back on all the companies that I've owned, advised, sold, the thing that separated the businesses that were moderately successful

from the ones that were exceptionally successful is that they had a better money model. And a money model is a core economic unit of the business. So it's a deliberate sequence of offers that is ideally tailored to do one financial outcome, which is you collect enough cash from one customer in the first 30 days to get and service two more customers. And so when you have that amount of cash upfront, then it unlocks cash flow for the business to grow as much as it wants, or at least until the next you train in the business. And so when I looked at all the money models that I created, there's basically four different objectives to make that happen. So one is, how do I get more people interested?

So that's going to be the nature of the offer, you know, buy X get Y free, giveaways, things like that, that like, okay, I can structure this thing in a way that makes way more people interested than just saying, hey, buy my thing. The second element is, okay, how do I get those people to spend more money than they otherwise would? So there's different money models around that.

The third is going to be, how do I make them spend their money faster? How do I pull that cash flow forward? And then the fourth element of good money is, a money model is, how do I make them spend their money faster? How do I pull that cash flow forward? And then the fourth element of good money is a money model is how do I get them to do it again and again and again, which can either be recurring in a membership or reoccurring like Coca-Cola. You still buy it again and again, it's just not on subscription.

And so if you have all four of those things, then you have a business that can create tons and tons of demand, get lots and lots of money upfront, and get people to buy again and again, which then creates stability and cash flow for business long term. And so that is basically the four pillars of the book,

and it's broken down into those four steps of, these are the front-end offers that do this, these are the transition points to, how do I get someone to take the next thing that's gonna be more expensive, or how do I get to take the bottom thing, or how to create pain points, how to create down-sells, all of those components which ultimately make businesses

significantly more successful. And I started writing this in 2019. It was the first book that I started. So it was actually called Lead Generation to Monetization Structures, which, you know, very, very sexy name. But this was, I had a mentor who told me, hey, you're in the sale process right now.

You should document all the artifacts, kind of crystallize knowledge at that point. And so that is what started that book. Now, offers and leads were basically, that book was like this thick and I was like, this is, I can't. So I actually peeled off offers and then finished that first and then peeled off leads and finished that second.

And then finally I can get to the money models, which is actually what I started six years ago. And so I have not publicly talked about any of the structures in this book. And I feel like I'm giving birth, I've been pregnant for six years, conceptually pregnant and I want to give birth to this thing because I think that this will make the largest impact on business owners bottom line of anything that I've ever made.

And it's been the source of the vast majority of my material success is being able to do this because when you have a superior money model, it gives you padding to be bad at everything else because you finally make more money per customer than anyone else does in your space, which means your advertising doesn't have to be as good. You don't have to be as good at sales. The offer itself might not necessarily be as good, but when you sequence these things together

properly the right way, then you can unlock skill in the business, and then with that cash flow, buy down that ignorance debt, and then give yourself time to get good at all the other stuff. And what starting point would you say this book's aimed at? Like where is someone at in their journey?

You can start at zero because you could start at, so what's interesting about those four things is that you don't need all four, you just need one. And over time, because if you were trying to do a business that had all four, you had a recurring, you have upfront, like you would be completely inundated. So we would start with the first thing, which is some sort of attraction offer.

How do we get something that's more designed to get more customers or more people to engage in your original reach out, your paid ad, your content, whatever it is. And so I have the five most successful structures that I have used and detailed step-by-step exactly how to execute them. And what's interesting is that this is the stuff that,

so the offers book when it came out, there wasn't a single other book about offers, which is interesting. And then it became kind of a household name, which is this massive gap in the space. But as soon as you see it, you're like, this is everything. This is how all of it works. I think that money models will be that same thing, where there's not a single book that ties those concepts together.

And as soon as it, I think it will exist in that huge gap that once you see it, you can analyze any business in that same way and specifically your own. Yeah, I love it, Alex. I'm honestly listening to you today and I've consumed your content for a long time now. Listening to you in person, consistently for this long around the models that you've built is a real treat, man.

It's so well thought through, it's so systematic. I love the way you think, the way you've been able to train yourself to realize that everything's built on behaviors and the ability to even something that you said to me, that's really going to stay with me because I think about it in such a similar way, but it's so obscure. Like we have a lot of similarities in our beliefs and, but some of them are a bit more different angles, which I love.

Yeah. From different angles, but some of them are a bit more, they're from different angles, but some of them are a bit more, they're from different angles, but some of them are a bit more widespread held, but your one thing you talked about today about how when you watch people say what they regret. And I think about that all the time. I'm like, of course you regret you didn't spend enough time with your family, but you're totally taking away from all the benefits you just got right now.

And I'm not saying people shouldn't spend time with their family. It's just, when you said that today, that was one thing that I was like, I can't like to have the ability to think it through to that level, to not just take something at face value. And I think that's, that's the skill I see you have. Like that's the expert you're at is that you don't take anything at face value. And that's hard because it requires you to dig deep to figure out, well, what is the behavioral science here?

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in. All right. You've touched on some of this, but it would be good to get your reaction to them again. All right. So this one I love because I think it's so true.

Most people want to become millionaires because of what being a millionaire allows you to do, not because of what you have to do to become a millionaire. What do we do about that mindset? It's a, it's wanting the view without the climb. It's a, Jimmy Carr has a great quote on this. Uh, it's a, everyone wants what you have, but not what you did to get it. I think that if we make who we become the goal, rather than the thing we achieve, instead of winning once a decade, we can win every day.

Because you can continually get better at being who you are, and then the achievement is just one milestone along the path. But at least in my experiences, as I've actually approached milestones when it becomes increasingly likely that I'm going to achieve it, it matters less and less. When I was in the lifting world,

if I thought whatever my lift was and added 100 pounds, I'd be like, oh my God, man, if I lifted that, that would be insane. But by the time you actually do lift that, you also lifted 5 pounds less than that before, and you lifted 10 pounds less than that before. So you're like, well, it's really not that big of a stretch anymore. And so it actually, in some ways, it's not even nearly as fulfilling as you think it is because by the time it happens, you're so close to it, it seems obvious. And so shifting from who I become rather than what I achieve

or who I become as the achievement has been a wonderful reframe for like, sure you want to be a millionaire, but what you really want to do is become the person who can become a millionaire. And that you can win every day. And then that takes away the, I don't want to do the things that. Yeah. And that comes to one of the things you talk about a lot that I love is sense control. Like that, that to me, I think one of the earliest clips I saw of yours was someone had asked you something like, you know, what's a trait you see in successful people? And I think you'd said three things.

And I loved hearing that third one. The first one was, I think you said something like, you know, they're all people who have high standards, so they want it. They expect a lot from themselves. Yeah. The second was, but at the same time they're good at not being that hard on themselves when they don't get there. Emotional control.

Yeah. And then the third thing was like sense control if I'm not wrong. Yeah. Yeah. The other one was, so it's this one. Did I get wrong? No, no, it's like, you have this inflated sense of self. So you believe you can achieve great things.

That's it. You have this crippated sense of self. So you believe you can achieve great things. Yes, that's it. You have this crippling insecurity that pushes you away. Yeah. And then the third is that you can control your emotions. Yeah. And that, that, and I've always thought it's the high standards, high grace, that's been my language around it. But the third one of, of that self mastery, what do you think is the number one emotion that people don't know how to control that leads to failure?

That is such a good question. Fear. Because I think one of the most, one of the wildest questions that I read that, you know, kind of stuck with me was like, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And I think that's just such a powerful question to ask because every person has, the fear is the thing that gives you the hundred reasons. And what's really interesting about this is that

we are, our brains are exceptionally good at finding problems, which is why I'm a big fan of inverted thinking. So how can I think of it all the ways to kill my business and then do the opposite? Your brain is so much better at spotting problems than spotting opportunities. And so it's like use that problem finding thing

and then just flip it. And it sounds like, oh, well, I would just think of the opportunities that way. It's like, it doesn't actually work. You actually have to think for the threats and then flip them. But- That's genius, I love that.

Yeah, that's Charlie Munger. So that's, you know, rest in peace. But from a fear perspective, it's, I think it's playing it out. It's like, what am I actually most afraid of? And so fear typically only lives in the vague, not in the specific. We tend to catastrophize to death. So if I make this post and people laugh at me, I'll get shunned, and then I'll eventually go alone and then die, right?

So it's like everything just goes to like death, right? And so playing it out into the specific is like, okay, well, I make this post, some people will like it and some people won't. And maybe I'll get some negative comments. If I get negative comments, I'll get more reach. So maybe that's not a terrible thing. And then that night I will have dinner. Right? And that night I will go to bed.

Right? And so making it really, really specific. And then just to add one more thing on that, the other really big downside of being human from an opportunity money-making perspective is that we underestimate the upside and we overestimate the downside. And that has been incredibly valuable for us to stay alive and not very valuable for us to make money. And so, if you're in the developed world, the absolute worst case scenario is that you still have,

I say fortress, you still have a cover and you still have food and you still have air and you still have water. Because in the developed world, all those things are available to anyone. And so it's like, okay, so the worst case scenario is that I live and I'm completely free and no one bothers me. It's like, you know, that actually sounds not so bad.

When you actually play it all the way out. And so I think playing it out and actually really thinking, what would I then do? Well, I probably reach out to Sarah and she would let me sleep on her couch. Okay, so, and I would ask her, if you can play it, I'd be like, hey Sarah, if I were to do something and I were to fail,

how long would you let me sleep on your couch? She was like, I'd give you six months. And you're like, okay. So it all of a sudden becomes concrete. And I think that starts to really evaporate fear rather than like, oh, I will die. Totally, yeah, I remember that. When I really evaporate fear rather than like, Oh, I will die. Totally. Yeah. I remember that when I, when I made the leap, I was like, and of course I was in a

position to be able to say this, but I was like, okay, well, I'll just go back to what I was doing. Like if this didn't work, I would just go back. Like I'll figure out a way. Just get the job back. And I'll get the job back and I'll go back to do it. And that was the reality. And of course it was still at the time when I felt this was taking up all of that. All right. Another of that. Totally.

Alright, another one that I love. This one really, really hit me and I feel it's going to resonate with a lot of people if you haven't heard it yet. People fail not because there's some magical list nobody has. They fail because it's an obvious list nobody does. I'm so happy you liked that one. It didn't... Like I just... Just to give kudos to Jay here.

You picked out tweets that were not like super banger high performers, but like I wrote these and I was like, this is like this is a thing. I didn't pick them based on performance. I picked them based on like I was like, I read this. I was like, yes, like I just kudos to you for that because I it makes me feel good. But yeah, so I mean, this is a super known one. But the magic is in the work that we're not doing. It's the obvious list.

If you were trying to get in shape, you know you should eat less and you should move more. You know that. And so I used to even do these when I would have a weight loss customer who would come in the door. And they'd be like, so tell me more about the, and I would just say, do we really need to get into it? You already know what you're supposed to do.

The question is why you aren't doing it. That's what I'm here for. And so in a lot of these situations, you probably know that if you're going to invest, you should wait 10 years. And if you're not willing to wait 10 years, then you shouldn't buy it. Which means that if you're like, well,

I don't have the time to do that research, then don't invest. Increase your active income, right? And so all these things, okay, how do I increase my active income? Well, I know I need to do more than I currently am. I know I need to put my stuff out there. And so, one of my favorite frames around this is it's the Solomon paradox, right? And so, for those who don't know, in the Bible, Solomon, wise man,

that's called the Solomon paradox because he gave amazing advice, but his life was in shambles. And so, the thing is that we're exceptionally good at giving advice and very good at following it for ourselves. And so what's interesting is that they actually did studies on this where they had people, they whitewashed someone's existing circumstances and their conditions and had the same people not knowing they were criticizing themselves give critiques to this person on what to do to improve their lives. And the thing is that none of the people were actually doing it. And so the thing is I like that frame because if you parachute your, sorry,

protect yourself in the future and look back and say, okay, what would 80 years old version of me tell me to do? For some reason, it kind of like disembodies yourself a little bit. And you can get back and say, well, I would tell myself to do this, this, and this. And the thing is, is that you have complete context on your situation.

And so sometimes it's some of the best advice you can get. And I know this is kind of like the inverted thing where you're like, oh, well, I can just actually go through the process and say, I'm gonna write down a conversation with myself that's 80 years old, what would he or she tell me to do? And it probably is that obvious list that no one does, not the magical list that no one knows.

Because the thing is, is that like the clues of success are in plain sight, it's just that the sweat that's required, the price tag associated with them is the one that people don't want to pay. So people don't really give up on their dreams. They give up, they see what it takes to get their dreams and then decide it's too expensive. And I think that's the big thing is they think it's mispriced.

And maybe it is, and I think that's okay. But my preference would be that many people say, you know what, that's not worth it to me. And then be like, great, you've won. Like you've won, you don't need to get anywhere. You've already won where you're at. So that's at least my thought on it. Yeah, I love that.

How does someone who listens to this episode versus someone who applies this episode live differently today or tomorrow? Well, if someone just listens to the episode, tomorrow will be the same for you. So that's an easy one. This was just entertainment for you. Just define in terms of actions what you are going to do. I mean, that is really it.

And so, like, you can prove to yourself that you learned something from this podcast rather than just being entertained by this podcast by simply doing something different, taking an action. And so maybe it is just recording that selfie video and texting it to a hundred people. by this podcast by simply doing something different, taking an action. And so maybe it is just recording that selfie video and texting it to 100 people. That's it, you could just do that and you would have, I mean, you would be so much further ahead

than you were yesterday. And what's crazy is that the amount of progress that you make in that first 20 hours is greater than any amount of progress that you will likely make over the remainder of your career. Because going from absolutely terrible to proficient happens so fast. Now to be clear, all of the gains come from going from proficient to master,

which take a huge amount of time. But it's one of the most exciting times. Because like, oh my, look, I can build an app now. Or look, I can build a webpage. Or look, I can show other people how to sell stuff, whatever it is. And I think I would just want to get to that. Like get to that fast learning curve as fast as you can. And the only way we can do that is starting.

Love it. All right, here's another one. I don't know if it's a popular one or not, but deleting work-life balance for a season nets you more work-life balance over a lifetime. So I love this frame shift, which is everyone talks about work-life balance, but no one talks about it over what timeline.

Paul Graham said this from our Combinator. He said, in order to make a million dollars, you have to endure a million dollars worth of pain. And so you might be able to endure a million dollars worth of pain over 40 years, or you can crunch it into four crazy years. And then after that, you can have whatever you want to have afterwards. And so I think about life in seasons rather than in, you know, on microcosm of days and even weeks.

And I think that shifting that perspective will really only solve one core problem for people, which is that they feel like they are doing something wrong by making a sacrifice today. And there's always going to—and again, it's an eternal question. How much do I risk? How much do I consume versus invest? These are classic human problems that will never have a correct answer. And it's more, what's the correct answer for you and your season right now?

Based on the goals you have. And so I think if anything, I would want that quote to give some people permission to work a weekend every once in a while. To take the five to nine on both sides of the day and say, you know what, I am going to be unbalanced and that's okay. Because at least in my observation and probably yours, I have yet to see a hyper successful person who doesn't have a wildly unbalanced life or at least for a significant period of time.

And we want to just make sure that we're not looking at someone once they are a billionaire and saying, what are they doing now? Because they might be in a different season now. And so don't look at what Warren Buffett is doing now. He says, if I make two good decisions a year, I've had a good year. Well, if you make two good decisions a year, you're still probably not going to be Warren Buffett. Right? And so I think about that as my frame.

Yeah. Don't read someone's chapter 20 when you're writing your chapter one. It doesn't make any sense. I remember growing up, not growing up, I remember a few years ago when Gary's version that I loved, which was like in his words, and so I'll say eat shit for two years and then eat caviar for the rest of your life. And it was so interesting to me how much you could do in two years, if you just went all in.

Absurd. As opposed to this idea of like, I'm going to be really balanced for 10 years. And I was thinking about the other day, and you said seasons and I was saying this the other day when I was on tour, I was talking to Jesse Itzler and I said this to Jesse, we were talking about something similar.

And I was just like, I would never want a day, a perfect day is not a day where it rains, snows, sun and fall, right? Like that's not a perfect day. Like you wouldn't say that, you wouldn't say, I hope it rains today, I hope it snows today, I hope it's sunny and I hope the leaves shed. Like that's not a perfect day,

but that's what you want every day. And nature's already showing you the cycles that work. But we're trying to go against nature by saying, I want everything to happen today. And I want all my days to be over the halfway line. And so I think about this from a law of large numbers perspective, which is, let's say you have 365 days in a year. And there's going to be, if you change nothing,

the bottom 10% of days, you're going to have 36 days in a year that are bottom 10% days that are, there's nothing wrong with a day. It's just that this happens to be a bottom 10% of days, you're gonna have 36 days in the year that are bottom 10% days that are, there's nothing wrong with a day. It's just that this happens to be a bottom 10% day. And so I think a lot of suffering comes from just the normal volatility or variation that exists in life and then somehow ascribing meaning to it and saying, oh, and because this is the bottom 10%, it is bad, rather than it is sunny, it is rainy, and I need rain in order to appreciate sun. Right? And so it's like, we can't have just upside, it's the trade-offs. Like I want all the good without the bad, but the bad is what makes the good good.

Yeah. Yeah. And the bad is what sometimes what keeps you going. Yeah. Because if it was just good, maybe you'd stop, maybe you'd give up. Last one of these that I wanted to pick out, which I think is going to help a lot of people, because I've been doing it a lot. I'm writing my third book right now and this has changed my life.

It's amazing how much you can get done if you work for 12 hours without your phone. So, I mean- So simple yet so profound. So I define, so here's the number one, the highest value productivity hack that I can give anyone. So this is the hack of productivity. Do nothing except for the task you set out to achieve. That's it. So everything that people do in order

to increase productivity that is not working on the task at hand is by very definition making them less productive. Period. And so I think people have these very long routines. I think they have this like, I got to get in the mood. I got in this. It's like, what if you could start

taking action despite your mood and then get into the mood faster through taking the action? All of the things that have made me more productive in life have been through elimination, not addition. It is eliminating outside stimulus besides the one task that I'm working on. If we take the hypothetical ideal or hypothetical stream of the most focused person in the world is that that person would do literally nothing besides that one thing, which means they wouldn't eat, they wouldn't sleep.

Now, at some point, you're like, okay, well, in order for, he has to eat and he has to sleep, okay. So every other hour is just this one thing. And so if we take that as a hypothetical extreme, we want to approximate that or get as close as possible to that extreme as humanly possible. And so for me, it's good night's sleep,

knowing what I'm going to start on the day before, caffeinate, earplugs, I double earplugs, I put the plugs and then I put the things on. And I work in a room that has no windows. Now some people are like, that's depressing for me. But for me, it allows me to lose myself in my work, not get distracted by something that's going on outside. Well, I was just about to say,

I'm glad you brought up environment. Because everyone has an environment they thrive in. So I'm the same, I need instrumental music. I don't kind of music with lyrics when I'm thinking. I just can't do it. So I have some artists that I'm happy to listen to instrumental stuff. It also can't be songs that I know.

It has to be music that's totally unpredictable and totally random because it helps me with creativity. Then I do need windows, I need natural light, but I need to not see anything real happening. So it's like sky, tree, it's like, it's a nondescript and there's not like. Not a mall.

Correct, yeah, not people. There can't be people. And I can't work in noisy coffee shops. And I can't work in noisy coffee shops, like I can't work in environments like that. And to me, the environment is more important than this whole mood builder thing, because that's like deep work, like you're in the cave doing the thing.

Can I tell a wild example? Yeah. So I believe if you control the conditions, you can control the outcome, right? If you know all the variables. And so if we want to be productive, we want to control as many of those conditions as possible. And so to take up a hypothetical extreme power to say,

hey, I guarantee that everybody who's listening to this, if we were all in one room, I could get everyone naked without saying a word. People would hear that and be like, oh my God, that's insane. What I would do is I would lock all the doors and I would turn up the heat to 200 and then just wait. And eventually everyone would get naked.

And the point to that is that we can reconstruct the environment to get the desired outcome if we control as many of those variables as possible. And so if you don't feel as productive as you want, you get distracted easily, you might not have even given yourself a shot. Right, if you're trying to work while having your notifications on,

while letting people text you and call you, and you're in an area where people are coming by, and be like, is this chair free, is this table free? And you're you're at, you know, in an area where people are coming by and being like, is this chair free? Is this table free? And you're constantly getting pulled. It's like, you haven't even gotten a chance. And maybe you have a roommate who walks in and out and maybe they listen to music.

And the thing is, is that many people are in those conditions and they're like, man, I think I have a medical condition. I think I need to get medicated. And it's like, dude, you gave yourself a shot. Like Jerry Seinfeld talks about how his writing condition is, he has a desk in a room that has nothing else and he's got a pad and he's got a pen. And he doesn't have to write, but he can't do anything else. And so if we define commitment as the elimination of alternative, then we need to commit to the work. Right? And if focus is

anything that is not the work is not the work, then that's it. And so I think that we get there through elimination, not through addition. Yeah, I felt that. I felt that I think it's going to help a lot of people. And I, I, you're so right. Like even it's so funny you say that up until six months ago, I started to think I was like, has my brain just been rewired by TikTok? Like I was like, have I really lost my ability for deep work?

And I was having this thought probably like six, maybe 12 months ago, because I was racking my brain about the new book and it wasn't as clear as it used to be. And whatever. And I just started to do what I always used to do. Yeah. And all of a sudden it's all gone away. And I was like, I'm writing like for eight hours a day, Saturday and Sunday, or a new book every week.

Cause I love it. I'm in the zone. I'm in the room that I write in. And I was like, oh, it's, it's, it's right there. It's just, I didn't give myself the opportunity because I was trying to do it with the other distraction. Trying to squeeze it in. It's like you can't squeeze in focus. It's a jealous mistress.

It requires all your attention. Yeah. Alex, we end every episode with a final five. These questions get asked to everyone. And so these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Okay. So question number one, what is the best way to So, every episode with a final five, these questions get asked to everyone. And so, these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Okay.

So, question number one. Alex, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Do so much work, it would be unreasonable for you not to be successful. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Follow your passion. Question number three, a piece of advice you wish you received sooner. Find people better than you and do whatever you can to get them to help you, including helping them first without expectation.

Question number four, a lesson that took you far too many times to learn. Focus one thing all in. And fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone had to follow, what would it be? Everyone has to give all their wealth away at the end of their life. I love that one. But not to your kids.

But not to... Yeah, no, but it has to be, yeah, exactly. It has to be given away. To kids or every, or it doesn't matter. Yeah. Not to your kids. Not to your kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It has to be given away. To kids or it doesn't matter? Yeah, not to your kids. Not to your kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Raro, you're saying beyond your kids.

Yeah, my friend just told me the other day that his dad just took him out the will. And his dad's given all his money away to charity and all the kids are not getting anything. He was heartbroken. He was like, oh God, I thought I was going to pay off the mortgage at my house. It's so funny.

There's a Sanskrit saying around that, which is, if you have a good son, there's no need to accumulate wealth. If you have a bad son, there's no point to accumulate wealth. And so at the end of the day, that's my worldview, which is the reason that I would want the game to be structured so that everybody has to give all their stuff away at the end is because if you look at second and third order consequences of that, the people who are the best at allocating, or sorry, aggregating capital, the people who are the best at making money would be the ones who are also

the best at allocating it. And so you'd actually have the best tools and the people who are best skilled to use them. And so if you know you have to give it away, then at some point near the later part of your life, you would stop trying to amass and start trying to, you'd focus on giving. And I think most people who do give get addicted to giving because they realize they actually, it fills a hole that the wealth never did. And so what ends up happening though

is that from a societal perspective is that if all the best allocators of capital then try to solve all the world's problems with the capital they had, so many fewer problems would exist that would, the whole world would get better. The other downstream effect of that is that it would get rid of a huge amount of kind of the cronyism, the nepotism, the things where these seventh generation massive wealth trust fund kids who like, it doesn't serve the kids either. You look at those families, they're a mess.

It's a lot of pressure. Yeah, on so many reasons. And so I'm a big believer in equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. And so if'm a big believer in equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. And so if everybody's slate was clean day one, because no one got daddy's inheritance, then everyone starts at zero as close as possible. Obviously genetics, you know, can play a factor there, but I think that's as equal of a start as we can get and then everyone starts at zero and the ones who super win

then turn into super givers. And I like that. Yeah, and if you don't... One thing I've learned about that as well is, if you don't give now, you won't give later. This feeling of like, when I get a million dollars, I'll give more. It doesn't work that way. It's a proportion, like, it will hurt 10% at a million dollars, it will hurt 10% at 100k. Like, it's not... that's not gonna change.

And another phrase that we'd always hear in the monastery was God doesn't see how much you give, God sees how much you hold back. And so that's why I like your law a lot because it's that feeling of like, hey, you know, at the end of it, I gave it all. The book is called, $100 Million Money Models,

part of the $100 Million Series. Alex, I hope this is the first of many, many conversations we have online and offline. Truly loved our time together. And honestly, I've become a bigger fan of spending this time with you. And this was a masterclass for so many. I'm going to be sending this to a lot of people I know

who need to, there's some podcasts that you do and you're just like, yeah, I'm going to send this personally to people in my life who I think this is going to change for us. So thank you so much. I'm super humbled and very honored. So thank you so much for having me. Thank you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more. I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin on how to break into your most creative self, how to use unconventional methods that lead to success and the secret to genuinely loving what you do. If you're trying to find your passion and your lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one for you. Just because I like it, that doesn't give it any value. Like as an artist, if you

like it, that's all of the value. That's the success comes when you say I like this enough for other people to see it. Come on, why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient. Still using yesterday's tech upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, ultra light, ultra powerful, and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI power performance that keeps up with your business. Not the other way around. Whoa, this thing moves. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search at lenovo.com.

Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors, so you can work, create, and boost productivity all on one device. Welcome to the You vs. You podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, inviting you to go beyond the titles and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers. Each week, we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories, and the moments that shaped our guests. Get inspired to become the best version of you. Listen to You vs. You podcast on the iHeartRadio app

or wherever you get your podcasts. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming 12th season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories.

Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.