On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Bruce Daisley ON: How To Effectively Work From Home & Protect Your Personal Life During COVID-19

Episode Date: April 24, 2020

How do you stay productive at home? Jay Shetty & Bruce Daisley, former Twitter senior executive and founder of the Eat, Sleep, Work, Repeat podcast, sit down to talk about how to navigate the work at home experience. Managing the interruptions, communication difficulties, and lack of structure can be difficult. You'll learn all of Daisley’s best tips on the most productive, effective, and thoughtful ways to work from home during Covid-19. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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To find the next game-changing chocolate, and I'm coming along. Okay, that was a very large crack it up. Listen to the obsessions while chocolate on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Debbie Brown, host of the Deeply Well Podcast, where we hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your well-being journey. Deeply well is your soft place to land, to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well with

Debbie Brown is available now on the iHeartRadio app,, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Namaste. Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Jemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money and much more to explore the science behind

our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When you're thinking about whole body wellness and people feeling like they're in a good place, you're immediately transplanting them into a sub-optimal situation where they're not working in at a standing desk with beautiful sunlight cascading onto them, but rather more they're trying to make do with being on a bed for all of a sudden seems completely unsuited for the task. Hey everyone, welcome back to our on purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.

Thanks to each and every single one of you that come every week to listen, to learn, and to grow. Now, I know that we've been focusing our Friday episodes on supporting you and helping you during the pandemic, and I've been reaching out to experts and thought leaders who can really give you the most practical tools right now that can make a change in your daily life. For all spending time indoors, and that's a good thing, stay safe, stay at home, you know, protect your healthcare systems, wherever you are in the world listening. But how do we work from home?

So many of us for the first time are working from home. How do we stay productive at home? How do we stay creative at home? And how do we deal with all of the uncertainty in our workplace, with colleagues, with meetings, with Zoom calls crashing and all the rest of it. Today's guest is going to help us figure out the most productive, effective and thoughtful

ways to work from home. His name is Bruce Dazley and he was previously Twitter's most senior employee outside the United States in his role of Vice President across Europe, Middle East and Africa. He joined the company in 2012, having previously run YouTube UK at Google. He has also worked in the magazine publishing and radio industries, having those first break by mailing a cartoon resume of his life

to prospective employers. I can't wait to ask him about that. Bruce's passion for improving work led to him creating the podcast, eat, sleep, work, repeat on making work better. It became a number one smash it in the UK, also hitting the top 10 in the US. So make sure you go check out, eat, sleep, work, repeat, podcast as well. So excited to have Bruce on the show. Bruce, thank you for doing this.

Oh, great to talk to you, man. Great, great, great. Strange times, but lovely to get the chance to chat. Yeah, it's interesting how all these strange times, sometimes how can you connect with people that you've either wanted to connect with for a while or you didn't know before. I just want to check in and make sure your family's good, everyone's healthy and safe and where are you at the moment?

I'm in London, so yeah, all is good. I mean, it's strange, isn't it? How I think we've all known some of the ways that we can connect with each other electronically, there's some of the ways that we can do things, but I saw someone saying last week that been 10 years worth of change in four weeks. And that's definitely the case. I was in the doctor's surgery about something routine today, and they told me that really quickly transitions to video consultations, and I think that would only have gradually changed over

the next few years. I suspect a lot of that won't ever change back now. So it's just fascinating how some good stuff has come from the extraordinary disruption that we're seeing. That's a really interesting point actually. Yeah, I didn't think about it like that. You're actually saying that because so much more of our communication has become digital at this time, a lot of it, you don't actually see going back. Which of the industries do you think have had the most impact of that happening and rapidly happening? Well, I think there's a lot of change. I mean, look, medical consultations, it's one of them. And if you've ever gone, you know, with whatever

healthcare system you go to, but you know, quite often the doctors over schedule or you find that you've been waited for a long time and then you only see him for a few moments. But actually, if you allowed people to consult by video, they probably can give more time, they can do it from where they are. So, it's a lot of massive opportunity there. I think, you know, a lot of workplaces are finding that some of the ways that they did work, now when they do them electronically just don't make sense. So the

stat that always blows me away is the average American worker and I think it's the same for everywhere around the world, spend 16 hours a week in meetings. Now that's woo. I know, 16. So that's 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, are probably starting to wonder. What was the way that we were doing things ready for a bit of change? Yeah, absolutely.

And today I really want to talk a lot about that because I know you've got such great insight. I love the fact that you have so much research and data in the book as well. And I'm a big fan of research and human behavior and seeing how we interact. But tell us about, you know, for a lot of people, it's interesting.

We've always, I feel like a lot of people, it's interesting, we've always, I feel like a lot of people for a long time have said things like, I wish I could work from home. I wish I had that flexibility, but then when it gets forced upon us in this way and then you don't have that freedom, tell me about some of the challenges you're seeing people talk about right now

about working from home, that companies and employers are facing but also individuals are facing as well. Yeah, I think Jay, one of the big things is that people who can plan to work from home, people who can build their life around working from home have a very different experience than people who find that all of a sudden,

they're transplanted to having to work from home. So you said you used to live in New York. You can imagine if you're 20 something, a 30 something, maybe even later in life, and you're suddenly told you have to work from home, you've probably got a couple of options. One which is the couch, the sofa, one which is maybe sitting on your bed,

you possibly don't have like a desk. And so immediately, you're actually, when you think about wellness, when you're thinking about whole body wellness and people feeling like they're in a good place, you're immediately transplanting them into a a sub optimal situation where they're not working in at a standing desk with beautiful sunlight, cascading onto them, but rather more, they're trying to make do with being on a bed that all of a sudden seems completely unsuited

for the task. So I think that's one of the challenges, one of the critical things right now is that a lot of us have talked about working from home. A lot of us have talked about how remote working might transform things. And of course, what we're not doing right now is we're not doing a global experiment for remote working because almost every company

is going to have, it's worse year in a decade, it's going to have really bad success. Anyone looking at the results of this will say it was an unmitigated disaster. So the challenge for all of us is to say in this really sort of sub up to my experience, what were the good bits that we learned from it? I chatted to someone yesterday and they said, they said, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm rolling. Now, meetings are no more than 30 minutes. You feel free to put a block of time in your calendar where if you've got homeschooling responsibilities, if you've got kids that need just feeding, that you're not also anxious

that your video calls are going on. So I think a lot of us are realizing this is all about just about making do with what's going on, rather than this is the dream future. But I think the critical thing we're all gonna discover is be careful what you wish for. Because, you know, the idea of home working initially to a lot of us sounds like

freeing, it sounds liberating. But if you look into the research of people who work from home, generally they are significantly more stressed than people who work from offices. And the reason why is that all of the little gentle social cues that we give and it might be your bus smiling at you by the elevators or it might be a colleague saying, Hey, how's your weekend? All those gentle things, when they're taken away from us, they start changing their experience. They start transforming our experience, even the introverts amongst us were far more reliant on being charged up by those social interactions than we would ever admit. And so when you put someone, you transplant them to working,

sitting on their bed in a big built up city somewhere, immediately the first thing that can suffer, it's people's well-being. And actually, it can end up being a journey into something that certainly doesn't feel like an improvement from where we were. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season. And yet, we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them, continues to be astonishing.

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And insisting means that you are abusing yourself now. You human! That means that you're crazy as hell, just like the rest of us. When a relationship breaks down, I take copious notes, and I wanna share them with you. Anybody with two eyes and a brain

knows that too much Alfredo sauce is just no good for you. But if you're gonna eat it, they're not gonna stop you. Yep. So he's gonna continue to give you the Alfredo sauce is just no good for you. But if you're going to eat it, they're not going to stop you. So he's going to continue to give you the Alfredo sauce and put it even on your grits if you don't stop him. Listen to the art spot on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Yeah, now that's really well said. You've shared so many interesting insights there because I couldn't agree with you more. You know, I really feel that for a lot of people working from home is definitely more stressful.

And I'm glad that companies and teams are figuring out how you may have a two to four p.m. block in your day, which is homeschooling your kids or feeding or putting them to bed at a certain time or different time zones. Tell me about some of the ways you mentioned there are a couple of things which I think stood out, like you're saying, talking to your colleague about, hey, what you got planned for the weekend or speaking to your boss and then, you know, like you said, smiling

at you or whatever it may be, what are some of the ways that we can actually connect more humanly right now with our colleagues? Because I almost feel like when conversation become purely email or purely audio or purely distracted cause, you start noticing that people lose a disconnect more. They do. Yeah, and so what do you, and you also feel like when you're talking to one of these, I mean, this is just me and you and it's a podcast and we're both engaged and you know what you're turning up for and I know what I'm turning up for.

But if you think about it, a lot of meetings when you're on Zoom, it's so easy for people to disengage, you know, they're listening and then the connection is bad. What is a good way that people can right now build stronger human connection with their colleagues and with people in their workplace? So I'm going to go one step back and I'm going to give you a little bit of evidence because this evidence, I think, is fascinating for then how we answer that question. These are really inspiring guy at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, a guy called Sandy Pentland, Alex Pentland, and he was interested, I guess to some extent, in the

secret life of the office, if you've ever seen kids play a game of the Sims, he wanted to watch workplaces like a game of the Sims, Who's talking to who, who's walking over? What emotions happened? So he did this really interesting experiment when we were all in offices. He put badges on people and he said, right, he didn't even know what he wanted to track, but he just wanted to see whether he could measure,

like sometimes you're walking to a bar and this is sports game on, and they have like a heat map of where the players have been on the He wanted to do that a heat map of what was happening in the workplace Anyway, he started watching very quickly. He said oh wow. I'm starting to learn What goes on and what actually contributes to a creative workplace? What contributes to a productive workplace? Here's the strange thing he found he found that emails account for about 2% of what gets done in offices.

Meetings, meetings account for about 3%. So that's when you're in the room with people, meetings are 3% face-to-face conversation account for about 37%. He said, I can look at this heat map of an office. And I can tell you, if this is a creative office by our people going over, it's Bruce going over to Jay's desk

and sort of saying, hey, I've got a sort of slight idea and you wince and you sort of, oh, I'm not sure. Be careful before you take that to the big bus. And immediately, I think, okay, okay, okay, it's not perfect. Right. But so what we learn about that is that even though if you did a spreadsheet

of what creates value at work, probably face-to-face conversation wouldn't even go on your list. But you realize that it's actually, it's often the conversations by the coffee machine. It's the conversation while you're just getting some, some copies made. And you say to someone, hey, did you read that report, did you read that email, what you think of that idea? And normally those little bits of chitchat, or it might be, did you watch that show on Netflix, those bits of chitchat turning to conversations about work. So then to transplant it to where we are now, you realize that this sort of this dark matter

of work, which is all of the social interactions between us. And if you transplant to a world where we're all sitting on a Zoom call and, you know, our inbox is looking so big that we think, you know, what I'm on this Zoom call, I'm just going to clear my inbox. And immediately it's a bit like when you're, when you're sitting on the, the sofa and the Netflix shows playing and your partner or someone in the, in the house says to you, you know, do you even know what's going on? And you go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, like, you don't know any of it. Like, you don't have a clue, yeah. And works become like that. And immediately we find ourselves feeling like it's just getting too much for us. We're not feeling connected. The fascinating thing is that it seems that when we can forge these social links between us and especially now when they don't casually happen, the

person on the desk next to you isn't going to ask you about your weekend. And so when those social things have gone, we need to try and find a way to bring them back. There was one piece of research I was really charmed by, which was, you might think it's unrelated, but it was looking at, in the old world, in life before this, it was looking at couples who'd had distant relationships. So this was, you know, the one of them's living in Chicago, the other ones living in New York, how do they sustain this? They looked at 40,000 couples who'd done the distance thing, and they tried to work out the ones who had stayed together for 12 months. And these were unmarried couples.

The couples who stayed together for 12 months with the ones who phoned each other, old technology, analog. They phoned each other every day to talk about trivial things. They phoned to talk about the cat. They phoned to talk about the weather. And what you discover is that even though we could never

truly put a value to that, it seems to have this really powerful spiritual human connection to it. So then you're sitting there thinking, so what can we do right now in this strange situation to do that? I saw I've been really interested just watching people's social posts about what works. And you know, you're wishing a lot of people using house party or zooms to get together. I saw someone who works

at the Huffington Post, Huff Post and she said you know we probably we we probably feel embarrassed to admit it but our favorite thing is we have a meeting at 11 a.m. on Monday morning where we get together and all with a coffee and we talk about the TV we watched over the weekend. Right, that's really interesting because all of us, so often, we can find ourselves thinking, I need to be more productive. I'm failing unless I'm squeezing the last bit of productivity out of life. And what you miss in the gaps between that is you miss those moments of nourishment that we get from other people.

So I think, I think, I would say, learning the evidence of along the way there, thinking about how we can get more human connection. I used to work in a technology job, and one of the things I would always ask these, what do you think the future of work is? And I always said, you know, I don't think the future of work is we're going to find the answer in technology, the answers in humanity. How can we make us feel that technology has enhanced our experience of work, we feel more connected,

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and he was transporting them in a burro hence the name the burritos. Listen to Hungary for history with IroLongoria Maite Gomez Rejón as part of the Michael Tura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I think you're spot on. I feel exactly the same way having worked at Accenture as well. And like, you know, my whole world was digital strategy and innovation and constantly looking at AI and AR

and how that was going to change the workplace. And I feel exactly the same way as you that it's all about the human connection. And I think you're so right that we need that moment of being able, before we become productive or getting to the work day, to have that moment of being able before we become productive or getting to the work day to have that moment just to decompress and just to kind of change a few, I mean, even just us, before we started this podcast,

it was nice to connect to where I grew up and mutual friends we have and stuff like that just helps break the ice. And we almost need it even with people weekly, even if we know those people, and we see those people, and it's so easy to try and save that extra five minutes of productivity,

but that extra five minutes of productivity cost to five days of relationships and getting things done well. Very much so. I saw this fascinating piece of research, and this was done by some researchers at Oxford University, and it was trying to

work out the effects that we have on each other. So what they did is the researchers got a group of rowers right so these you've seen them at the Olympics sort of six for you know in very athletic they got a group of rowers and they put six of them individually on rowing machines told them that they had to row for 10 minutes they got a separate group and they put individually on rowing machines told them that they had to row for 10 minutes. They got a separate group and they put them on rowing machines, but they instructed them that, for familiar with these, you have to row like you're on a boat. You've got to be in sync with each other. So you've got to be feeling like empathizing with the people around you.

Then they got them to exercise for 10 minutes. Now routinely, the amount of energy they burned was about the same, but then they measured the endorphins, the pleasure hormones in these roas bodies, and they do this by putting an arm band on them and they measure the endorphins. The ones who felt connected to each other, even though they'd all done the same amount of exercise, had twice the endorphin levels of the ones who didn't. And the strange thing about that is you sort of see that and you think, oh, that's fascinating. Where else could we observe it? Well, anyone who's ever sung in a choir, endorphins, you know, the fact that you're doing something synchronized

with other people, endorphins come. Anyone who's danced with each other, endorphins. You'd like, people say, oh, all it did all night was dance. And like my energy levels, I was just oozing it. When people go to a comedy show, if you laugh, you're often find yourself talking to strangers coming out. Why? Because the endorphin levels are through the roof. And then you start thinking, OK, so look, the average day probably isn't going to start with a sunburned dance or a comedy routine.

But where else do these endorphin levels get triggered? And they get triggered when we chat face to face with people, our endorphine levels go up. If we're in a group, a smaller group, and we laugh, our endorphine levels going up, and I think that connection to other people, actually, it's a really important part of us feeling like we

matter, like the things we do are having an impact on the people around us. Yeah, no, those are great ideas. And that's why I think finding the best way to have those virtual workouts or virtual movie nights or virtual dinner dates with friends right now, it's just so needed, especially with colleagues as well, because I think it's so easy to think, like, oh yeah, I work with my colleagues. And so we just talk about work stuff. But then when you think about the office, you're like, oh no, I actually used to talk about the football,

right? I talk about the TV, or we used to talk about, you know, whatever it may be, the latest thing on the news. And we've stopped doing that. And also we forget that right now, we may be doing that, but a lot of that conversation may be negative.

So we used to talk about the negative. So we used to talk about the football or we used to talk about the best TV, but now we're talking about the news, or we're talking about COVID, or we're talking about, we're now talking about the stuff that doesn't necessarily boost you or enhance you. You talk about stuff that kind of stresses you out a bit more. It's important to still have those social conversations at work, which we're very used to. That's exactly right. I mean, there's a really interesting thing when you look, I mentioned before, that workers work remotely, their stress levels are higher. And one of the ways that you can get around that is, is making sure that maybe you don't jump straight into

the meeting content immediately. You know, your instinct might be that the moment that everyone's under call, you cut old chat down and you jump straight in. But more than ever before, those moments where we turn and we say to everyone, hey, how's everyone doing in your office, or in your city? How's everyone doing? How you coping? And those moments of sort of group connection, but also individual connection. If you're a leader right now, if you're a partner, And those moments of sort of group connection, but also individual connection.

If you're a leader right now, if you're a partner, if you're anyone picking up the phone and spontaneously, or even just putting a face time in, but spontaneously checking in with someone who is important and probably would feel valued by you, is an incredible act of this altruistic leadership guy then. I love that and it's so true. I think picking up the phone to someone

or FaceTiming them directly, not through a Zoom call or a Zoom link, it's weird because it could be the same thing. Yeah, but when someone feels that you call them from your phone and you're FaceTiming them. That feels so much more personal when it's not through a laptop or it's not through a work screen or a web X or any of those things. And there's probably people right now saying, Hey, I don't want a call out of the blue, you

know, I haven't put clothes on for a week and a half. I haven't washed my face. Absolutely send Send an SMS, send a text first. Say, okay, for a quick call. And so it might not be a video call, you end up with just a phone call, but you're making sure that people's anxiety levels don't peak. But absolutely that moment where almost all you talk about is, hey, I'm going to phone you, can you recommend me something to watch on TV? Yeah, and immediately you're not going into the whole COVID, the whole, you know, the sort of getting groceries, you're not going into the logistics, but you're in a moment where you're just riffing about a great movie to watch. Yeah, and I think that's what it is. It's asking

people, it's also the questions we ask when we start our calls, I think, like you said, moving that conversation in a natural way of like, oh, what's the best movie you've seen? And what's the best show you've been watching or, you know, what's the best thing you've done with the kids? Or it's the solution oriented conversation, the main point oriented conversation that I think helps people whenever they ask me that, I feel like I was late to it, but I watched recently. The movie came out in like 2013 or 2014, but I've been trying to find movies

from then my wife towards, and I found this movie called Saving Mr. Banks with Tom Hanks and his name is Tony Hanks, Tom Hanks. And I don't know if you've seen it. It's so brilliant, like it's become one of my favorite movies that I've just talked about all the time. And you're so right, as soon as you talk about something that you've enjoyed, that also boosts your mood.

And I think that's so important that finding something to talk about that makes you smile. That makes you get your next energy. Look, and I couldn't agree more. And right now, it's very easy for any of us to feel the whole of life is filled with guilt. We might end up sitting there thinking, I feel guilty that I've not read that great novel that I was meant to read. I feel guilty that I've not learned that language. And right now, I don't think we need to add any more guilt, any more burden to us. But if you can fill it with a bit of joy, you know what? I loved that movie

as a kid. I'm going to introduce my house, my, you know, someone with me to that movie, then I think it's probably a good time now. Like you say there to be reminded with things that just made us, simply made us happy. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about one of, I think one of the biggest challenges that people feel working from home is that there, there's no barrier now between their work and their personal life. So they're in the same space, they're eating lunch while they work.

They're sitting at the same couch like you said all day long, all of those types of experiences. And now you're still reading emails at 9 p.m. because you kind of feel like you have nothing else to do or you haven't seen the difference. What are good ways that people can separate their personal and their work like, if that's the right way of looking at it, or what's the best way to navigate that whole challenge? Look, so I mean, I think one of the most important things that any of us can do right now is try and think about our headspace and then have a dialogue with our managers because

the person we report into and the truth about work is that there sometimes is a line manager lottery that sometimes we work with really understanding empathetic people, sometimes not so much. And so just understanding where your manager's mindset is out, he's really critical. Why? Because look, the situation we're in right now, maybe the best thing for your mental health is if you're still allowed to go outside, you go outside when the sun is shining on your face, and you can actually be filled with the glow of optimism that sometimes comes with a bit of nature. And of course, you know, if your boss is saying, I want you at the computer at 9 and then,

you know, clocking off at 6, but then available afterwards, we're going to miss the glory of nature. And nature can be, you know, sometimes they call it vitamin N. It can have this sort of magical quality of making us feel like things are going to be okay, that, you know, we can cope with situations. So I think the first thing that I would say for anyone, is try and work out how you're going to get some balance into the way things are. And if your manager understands that,

then all the better that you could say, hey, just so you know, I'm going to be doing my full hours, but I'm going to be taking a break from 12 till 2, so I can get some fresh airs so I can feed whoever I need to feed, but then I'm going to be back on it and go do my full work. I think, you know, as you say there, the dream that we're told really resolutely is draw a division, draw a line between working and not working, and I think more than ever before, that's really important. If we can get some escape, and whether it's entertainment or music or whatever it is,

if you can get some escape from work, then it can make the whole of the situation we're in right now feel less claustrophobic. So I think more than ever, don't be held to the rigidity of, I need to be at my desk from all this time. If you get the opportunity to build some, some relaxation, some rest into that, it's going to, it's going to, number one, it's going to make your work better. And number two, you're going to leave this unique situation. The better for it, stronger for it. Yeah, no, I agree with you.

And I know that two things that really helped me, like one of the best ones for me, and this really, truly, it doesn't matter how big your apartment or your home is. I used to live in a 600 square foot apartment in New York, which is very small for two people. And in that apartment, I was able to find different spaces with different things.

It could literally be a corner. And so I really believe that it's important to have a lunch space like where you go and you eat your lunch calmly. It will only take 10. By the way, if you eat your lunch and that's all you do, who'll take 10 minutes? And so when you try to eat your lunch while you're reading an email and trying to type at the same time, yes, well, you're not digesting properly. You're not reading that email properly and you're not being efficient or productive.

So I really believe in having a space to eat. It could be a breakfast bar table, whatever you have. I really believe in having a space to work. It could be the edge of the same table. It could be a corner of your home. I really believe in having a place for entertainment. Even if you're in a studio apartment, it's still important to kind of create zones and spaces

because your mind gets used to that. There's a reason why you mind, you know, and this is what I find. A lot of people say to me like, when they can't sleep, and I say, well, what else are you doing in your bedroom? And they're like, oh, well, I eat my dinner in my bedroom, and I watch TV in my bedroom. And I'm like, well, that's why you can't sleep in your bedroom because your whole bedroom is charged with that energy of being stimulated. Whereas when you only sleep in your bedroom, it helps you fall asleep. When you, like, when sometimes people say, oh, I can't sleep tonight.

So what do you wear? Well, I'm just wearing the clothes I wore all day or I wore the clothes I wore to the gym. That's the same clothes that you did activity in. It's hard to sleep, putting on, there's a reason why we have pajamas or a pair of shorts or whatever. Maybe that you put on when you go to sleep because it feels like a sleep uniform. It helps you disconnect from the day taking off that feeling. So I really recommend people to find zones in their home and and feeling like even if it is just your upper half getting dressed for work and then taking

off your work clothes, there's a reason why we've been doing that for so many years. We know when you take the jacket off when you get off at the end of the day, that work is over. It's so important to keep those habits moving, even if you're in the same space. You hit on something really critical there as well. You mention sort of, you know, zoning your activities, taking a break,

going to sit for food. And it's just incredible research and the importance of taking breaks. You might know this, but the worst time to find yourself in court is just before lunch because judges are more judgmental, the more critical, the more likely to find you guilty because they're angry, they're frustrated, or school children, pupils at school. If you give them a break every hour, their results go up during the course of the day. If you don't give them a break,

their results go down. But the worst performing kids, their results go down more than everyone else's. So breaks have this sort of incredible energizing quality for us. And if you say to yourself, look, we all need a bit of structure, but if you say to yourself,

you know what, I'm getting up from here and you know, I'm going to work for an hour, then I'm just going to stretch my legs. Grab a coffee, look out the window, just trying to get a bit of break time. Built into your routines has the effect of just keeping your energy ticking along. Yeah, no, no, that's really interesting insight. And at one hour, what counts as a break, Bruce? Tell me what's a good break?

Because I think when people hear the word break, they're like, what do I do in my break? And most people turn to browsing on social media or get lost and use what counts as a break. So it was saying every hour, we perform better when we have a break every hour. How long is a good recommended break? And what do you do with that break? Yeah, but the, the, the, there is some research into

who, when the most productive people, how they manage their time. Generally they work for 50 minutes and then they take 20 minutes off. The idea that we were meant to be working relentlessly is a little bit unrealistic. Generally what you discover, my lesson into this was that I used to be one of those guys who would eat lunch, al Desco, and you know, I would be sitting at my desk, pecking my computer keyboard with a sandwich in hand, and I just realized at the end of the day, I was spent, you know, that feeling where someone asks you something, and

you just sort of stare through them, you're not really responding. And I was finding that was my situation, that burn out, that exhaustion, I was finding that was my situation. For me, the critical thing was getting a bit of structure and, you know, and that was in a normal world of work. Just setting myself a goal, you know, three days this week, I'm going to go, I I'm going to go outside the park at lunchtime or I'm going to do something that punctuates the routine and what you discover pretty quickly from it, you know, right now depending on where you are, maybe you're allowed to go to parks, maybe you're allowed to exercise. If you say to yourself, oh, I'm going to do my exercise at lunchtime or I'm going to walk to the grocery store today rather than drive there and just trying to get

a little bit of colour and variation. It often helps us feel like every day isn't quite the same. It might be as well. You say, look, I'm going to phone a parent, a friend, a family member on that walk and immediately it's become, oh, you know what, I had such a lovely time, I had a 30 minute war, I chatted to my my mom, you know, trying to fill your, what otherwise can feel the same, you know, we're weak into this now and it just becomes a blood. No one knows what day is, no one knows what month it is, got a vague sense of season, you know, so we're in this zone where just putting a bit of punctuation actually helps. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that as well. I think changing it up every day with whatever it may be, and like you said, breaking up with a call or a walk or something indoors that you can take as a

break is a really powerful way of doing that. One of the things I think people struggle with is if someone who already has a pretty poor relationship with their boss or with their work colleagues, now can feel like a really toxic time because you already had stresses on you and now you feel even more stressed out. How does someone navigate that? And I know you've been a leader inside large organizations, managed multiple employees. I think a lot of employees may be struggling with that right now. How would you guide them to talking to their managers right now, their colleagues to help ease any of those stresses that existed from the fore?

Yeah, you're completely right. And especially because a lot of organizations are following employees. And maybe you've survived a round of cuts and you're worried unless you seem to be working hard, it'll be your turn to go next. Absolutely. These things are a reality for all of us. I think the critical thing is that we've all got to try and understand what our managers expectations are. And I'll be honest with you, sometimes those expectations are unreasonable, but understanding what our bosses, no matter how unreasonable they are, so we at least know, this is what's

expected from me, because my focus would be right now. Anyone listening, watching, consuming this would be thinking, how am I going to look after me? And then it becomes, of course, how am I going to look after me? And then it becomes, of course, an assault course. Can I reconcile those two things? Can I feel like, okay, my boss needs to see that I'm online. What's the best way for me to make him happy without me burning out? And that might be, you know, just keeping an eye on emails

while you actually take a break and you're sort of and you're resting yourself. And look, I don't think there's any easy solutions to this. Quite often, our managers can haunt us. I did some work at the start of the year trying to understand what people considered the best part of their job and the worst part. Best part was always the people. People said, you know, if they've got colleagues that they laugh with every day or every week, they've got people who seem to be looking out for them,

it really brings some meaning to the jobs they do. Worst part of our jobs for so many of us is our boss. And so, you know, I can't bring a magic wand to solve that, but I think more than anything, we probably need a coping strategy. What can we do to deal with good or bad boss? If we've got a good boss, boss, then, you know, a good boss who sort of facilitate honest dialogue. If you can say to your boss, I am feeling overwhelmed today. Listen, I'm going to get my work done, but, you know, I'm not going to be online all day.

Wow, what a great boss that will gift you that because probably the work will be better and everyone will benefit from it. I recognize though, not everybody's, unfortunately, casting that mold. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's just worth hearing your words on that because I think like you said,

there isn't a you know there isn't any fairy dust for a situation like what's your experience of the Accenture because I mean that must have been like a very demanding environment. Yeah so it was it was fascinating I was there a really really interesting time when Accenture was moving into doing a lot of digital and innovation work. So we actually used to spend a ton of time at Google, UK, and other organizations trying to learn from them and gather insight. And I found that the space of the business that I was in,

the leaders I had, were very forward thinking. Fantastic. And we're able to really push the boundaries. So there were a couple of managers that remember, not managing, they were execs, but there was a lady named Julie Bryant who now I believe is at EY and then another lady named Sarah Bentley and both of them were just incredible leaders

that were very forward thinking, very much strengths-based, very open. And the accent was moving in that direction of that culture. I think it was very much clear about what the culture had been in the past and everything. But there were, and this is why it all comes back to what you said. It's always the people. I feel like it isn't companies, it is the people, it's individuals, it's managers.

And I'd say there's any managers or leaders or CEOs or entrepreneurs listening right now, it's your responsibility to create that feeling and take that step out and not follow the trend that your company may have had or that your Management may have previously had you can change that culture right to some degree But you actually talk about company culture being a myth Bruce tonight that fascinates me And I wanted to ask you why are you so sure of that? What does that mean to you because yeah? Well for me the idea that we feel connected to the people around us is unequivocally the case you know it's one of those things that as we're evaluating time you know we very rarely say that if someone asks us to describe our formative years we very rarely say you know I'm the

person I am today because I had that incredible holiday in, I'm the person I am today because I had that incredible holiday in Hawaii. I'm the person I am today because I bought that new car. We more often talk about like the challenges we had, the issues we had to overcome. And when people talk about great workforces, they very rarely say, you know, that was an incredible place. We got free smoothies. Or they're very rarely say that was incredible. Yeah, but they often say, you know, that was incredible place. The people there were just like inspirational. So no doubt all of us can feel a sense of something larger than ourselves, a sense of purpose, mission from the people we work with. It just often doesn't happen at a company level.

And you might have recognized this when you were working at a big corporate. That quite often you'll feel a real affinity with the six, seven, eight, ten people around you, but then a message will come from head office and everyone rolls their eyes and like, oh man, what are they thinking? Why? Because that's generally what happens when we feel that things are outside of our control, when we feel like we've got no agency or autonomy over them, we start believing, oh, that it's been mandated by a bad person now. It seems then, so what could we learn from this? It's a bit like saying, okay, that you've got all these MBA teams, but there's gonna be an MBA culture

that all of the teams are gonna have. All of the MBA teams would say, no, no, no, no, we've got our culture, we don't, and then it comes from on high, the new culture is this. What happens is that either people reject it, and they say I'm not having anything to do with that, or they pretend to go along with it. Now, most of us don't have the power of NBA players.

So most of it, the role comes along from head office. This is the new culture, we're gonna be like this. And everyone just thinks, you know, I'm hoping to get a mortgage, you've proven next year, and I'm hoping to, you know, to be able to afford a nice vacation, actually, I'm just gonna go along with, to be able to afford a nice vacation. Actually, I'm just going to go along with this. And that's what happens.

You lose all of that magic, which was you and the gang and the people doing something and feeling like you were getting something done. And you lose it to people feeling like I just need to go along with what head office is saying. And so that's the difference. Generally, when you observe, and it might be a sport franchise, it might be, it might be like a, a small team that you're working with. Generally, when you observe where people say, I love these people, they're talking about a cluster of really small people who had a personal connection with these folks and most days, it generally doesn't happen that you have exactly the same culture between the Cincinnati

office and the, you know, an office in Houston. Why? Because the people are different, their lives are different. And actually, we shouldn't try to force people to feel like they have to go along with a culture that's consistent. Celebrate the weirdness, celebrate the quirks, let the team in bolder be different to the team in Boston. I think you're an accurate to your thing.

That's a really unique point. And one of the things that stands out from what you're saying is that, is that feeling of most people just roll their eyes because they're like, oh, here we go again, because it's just another update, right? It just feels like another mandate, another update. And actually none of us like, all of us generally have some sort of, some sort of challenge with authority

when we feel we're not involved in that decision-making, right? Like when you feel disheartedly, yeah, we have that. Yeah, go on. Go on. And then, in any sense, when people feel like they have no control, look, you can observe this. The most extreme, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, power has this dis-inhibiting impact on us. People who are in power or animals in power have this dis-inhibited behavior. People who don't have power. So us, when a message comes from head office, we become a little bit withdrawn. We sort of hesitate. We stutter when we're saying something.

We stammer over words because we were worried that we might cause offence. And these things, they might not seem necessarily like they have a direct bearing on our job, but really they have a big impact on the way we feel, the way we're able to express ourselves. And so when these messages come from on high, when head off, we send a new directive, what effectively happens is people fall out of love, people fall out of love a little bit with their jobs where they feel I'm not really able to to bring my own ideas. Yeah. If there was one hack or a tip or a tool or principle from your book that you'd want everyone to start practicing today that you feel would really benefit them right now

during this pandemic. What would it be? What would be your tip or practice that people could do? Back in the day, I had a bad boss who said to me, Jay, you wondered past one day, he said, now's not the time to be seen laughing. Oh, wow.

Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. And there's so much sort of implicit threat in there. I wasn't fully sure. And he's take was that he'd walked past, he'd seen a few of us goofing around, laughing. You know, couldn't even remember what it was. He said, now's not the time to see laughing. I think really struck me as a found myself.

So I wrote this sort of book about workplace culture, largely to try and get my workplace back into a found myself. So I wrote this sort of book about workplace culture largely to try and get my workplace back into a good place. What are the specific actions I could take? And it was like, it was reluctantly, as I was finishing the book, I thought, you know what, I need to go and have a look at laughter. Because if laughter is this actually this bad thing that distracts us from work, at least I can give people the ins and outs. And what we'll discover is that far from it, laughter. So if you check to firefighters,

if I was a firefighter, if I was a combat soldier, and you ask me about every day, combat soldiers, we often see them when they're in switched on mode. But combat soldiers will say, we used to spend hours laughing every day. Firefighters, one of the most stressful jobs,

emergency services, to any extent, and they'll say we laughed all day every day, and then you said to a firefighter, I said, do you mind me asking, did you ever discuss what you laughed about with family and friends? And they said they would be horrified what we laughed about. Why? friends. And they said they would be horrified what we laughed about.

Why? Because you start looking into it. Laughter is an incredible thing to reset our resilience. Wow. You might have been through trauma, but the fact that you're able to sort of, sometimes there's a darkness to the human. But the fact that you're able to turn to someone and say,

you know, and make a joke of it, yeah, what you discover is that I was so honored to talk to the world's leading expert and laughter, a man who passed away at the end of last year, a wonderful man called Robert Provin. And the reason why I say he was the world's leading expert and laughter, he said to me, this is around a hundred thousand scientific peer-reviewed papers on anxiety and depression and around 125 unlafter. So we just don't study laughter because the scientists think it's trivial, it's sort of unimportant. Anyway, he studied laughter and he said, so fascinating this, he said he went into workplaces, he went into various places. Well firstly, he sat down, he put some strangers together and he showed

them comedy videos. And what he learnt very quickly was strangers plus comedy does not equal laughter. And like it was like baffle, why aren't people laughing? He learnt very quickly, the reason why people laugh is that he discovered, he said laughter, he's like a, he used the phrase an impoverished human bird song, meaning that, okay, it doesn't sound as beautiful as a bird song, but we laugh to signal connectedness to each other. You get together with your family, you've not been seen, you go back to London, you see your family, Jay, I guarantee that we laugh during the room. Has something funny happened?

No, it hasn't. But you're sort of laughing, you're laughing expressively, you're signaling togetherness. And so you look at it and you go, so laughter signals togetherness, laughter resets our resilience, laughter just seems to be like this magical thing. So when my boss walked past me saying, now's not the time to be seeing laughing, actually maybe he couldn't have been more, more wrong. And so that's what I'd say to everyone right now, that sometimes if you're living alone in an apartment and you're seeing no one and this sort of this rule that you can't get together,

it's just feeling like it's beating you up, then finding opportunities to maybe, you know, it might be really awkward to have a Zoom quiz with friends. Maybe you're not that guy. Maybe you're not that woman who loves that. But finding a way to build a bit of levity, a bit of laughter into your routine seems to be just about the tip number one for all of us right now. That's a brilliant piece of advice, but I've not heard that from many people right now, and I think you're right. A lot of us feel guilty for laughing. That's right. It's hard to laugh right now.

Basically, what your boss said, everyone would feel like now is not the time to be seen laughing. It feels like it's too serious and actually we're wrong because sometimes it's that laughter and that, not casualness, but that laughter and just the levity, as you said, that gives us the space to be productive, effective, useful, supportive, loving, and everything else that comes from that. I can agree with you more. I love that. So that's each sleep work, repeat, Bruce's book, and podcast. And in his book, he gives 30 evidence-based ideas for improving work and how you actually can silence the bullies.

You say lunch breaks there for whips who celebrate overwork. We all know people like that and constant connectivity or who think that workplace it should be filled with fear and anxiety rather than chat and laughter. So if you want to infuse some more laughter, love and levity into your workplace, eat sleep, work, repeat is great. You can get on Amazon right now, right Bruce? That's the best way. That's right, yeah.

Oh, you know, if you're an audible, if you're an audiobook person, then yeah, it's available on that term. Yeah, amazing. So we've got two segments left for the end of the interview, Bruce. I ask you a bunch of really quick questions and you give me really quick answers. So this is called fill in the blanks.

So you've got to fill in the blanks at the end of the sentence. So the first one is a great workplace starts with. Yeah, trust, I think. Nice, I agree. Second one, being at work should never Bianchus, you'll be happier at your office if you feel connected with your colleagues. Let's get it smart. I like that. What impresses me most about humans is their ability to adapt. Yeah, I agree. A great leader will always believe positive motivation in their team. Yeah, wonderful. Okay, here are your final five. So that was great. I was feeling the blank. You did really, really well. Very quick answers. Only one pass. Now this final five is one word to one sentence answers, so you get a bit more wiggle room. Okay.

The question, so here we go with your final five. So the first one I'm going to ask you is, the one company you feel is doing an outstanding job with the values they have in place and how you think their company comes across. Yeah, right now I'm interested in organisations that are very focused on doing the right thing for their workers, for the right thing to try and really sort of build trust. I, you know, it's hard in the situation we're in right now and I'm based in the UK to not look at health workers and be inspired with just the

the fact that people who work in that industry are never defeated and you know they run towards fire when they see it it's hard not to be you know we all talk about mission we all talk about getting purpose in our jobs but when you when you witness that it it's inspiring, it seems inspiring to observe people who are doing a hard job and seem to relish doing it. Amazing, awesome. Second question, what have you been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue? What's something that you used to pursue

that's not important anymore? Unfortunately, I've never been too preoccupied with material things. So I don't own a car, I don't want to watch. So I've never been preoccupied with those things. So I feel I'm fortunate with those things. Yeah, I mean, right now, all of us are reminded that seeking vacation somewhere exotic is something that we can do right now. So I think I'm fortunate that I try and keep a degree of balance there.

Cool. What do you believe 100% about work that other experts or other thinkers would disagree with you on? What's a belief you have about work that other people don't seem to agree with? Yeah, you know, it might be a downer, but I believe work's gonna get worse, not better. And I think quite often work experts will come and they'll talk about how things are gonna improve.

Here's one strange thing and terrifying thing. So we've got these wonderful devices in our pockets that have, you know, we've been fortunate that these phones have transformed our lives and they're magical, but what they've done is they've added two hours a day to the working day. You know, our parents had more balance than we did, you know, and we've created work that we can never escape. And in truth, I think this is a degree of lowest common denominator about these things that, you know, your company is only as strong

as the worst person in it. And if your boss wants you to be online, you know, one piece of evidence is that if your company expects you to stay connected to email, you're online 70 hours a week to work. And, you know, it's no wonder we're in the middle of a banner epidemic, but I don't see getting better in the short term. Yeah, well, let's hope you're not right, but...

No, no, no. I mean, it is the reality. We have to face the truth. And maybe if we face the truth, we'll actually get better at dealing with it. That's exactly it. You know, the strange thing that these, because the burner epidemic that was sweeping through off-recees was starting to afflict bosses, so like this been famous cases of CEOs burning out

of other people, to afflicting bosses, it's starting to get onto the agenda. When it was just younger workers or low status workers or workers who had no control burning out, then it didn't seem so relevant. As it's now afflicting everyone, maybe there is hope. Yeah, for sure. Okay, last two questions. Let's do this one first. If you could create a law that everyone in the world would have to follow, what would it be? Ha ha.

And you know, a law that everyone would have to follow. I think I would love to introduce a no email at Weekends Rule. Oh, that's a very little one. A no fly zone across weekends. That's a great one. And so you get punished if you break it. You get punished.

Maybe you get a pass, you get one email a year that you can send. Something disastrous has happened. You give it one. No, no. OK, and final question on the interview, what was your biggest lesson that you've learned from the last 12 months? Yeah, I think the strange thing is,

we've seen our whole lives dismantled, right? And the strange thing about that is had someone said to you, this is what's going to happen. Three months ago, six months ago, at the time of the year, you'd gone, no way, no way, no way. I was in, you know, just as things were closing down, I said to a friend of mine, if you said, everyone is gonna receive the news that they can't go out

and everyone was going to bite by it, you'd go, no, people don't read the news anymore, people don't watch the news and the streets were empty. You know, I think streets were empty. I think we've learned that far more about life is negotiable than we realize. I hope that there are going to be some brilliant inventors, some creative people, some inspirations who are going to take the opportunity that that presents and run with it. Yeah, great answer Bruce. I love that answer. Thank you so much. Everyone, Bruce, Dazley, each sleep, work, repeat,

grab the book, listen to the podcast, and Bruce, thank you so much for doing the time to do this. I know it's late over there in the UK, so I really, really appreciate you staying up and taking away time from family and other things for doing this for us and sharing it with my audience. Jay, your inspiration, so I'm so grateful for the invitation to come.

Now, awesome. Where's the best place we can follow you? Is it Twitter? Is it Instagram? Is it where's the best place? Yeah. Instagram, you generally get nice photographs of flowers that I've seen, but on Twitter or LinkedIn, you can hit me up there. Perfect. Everyone go and check out Bruce there. Bruce, thank you so much again today. Can't wait to share this episode. And thank you everyone for listening make sure that you share your insights your takeaways tag me and Bruce in your post on Instagram and Twitter so that we both know what are the takeaways what are the practice what are the principles that you'll be putting into action this week

thank you again for listening sending lots of love to you and your family thanks again thanks Bruce that's awesome thank you and sending lots of love to you and your family. Thanks again. Thanks, Bruce. That was awesome. Thank you, Drey. Thank you, man. Thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Thank you, man.

Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Thank you, man. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Nuneum, I'm a journalist, a wanderer, and a bit of a bon vivant, but mostly a human just trying to figure out what it's all about. And not lost is my new podcast about all those things. It's a travel show where each week I go with a friend to a new place and to really understand it, I try to get invited to a local's house for dinner, where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party,

it doesn't always work out. Ooh, I have to get back to you. Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Regardless of the progress you've made in life, I believe we could all benefit from wisdom on handling common problems, making life seem more manageable, now more than ever.

I'm Eric Zimmer, host of the One-Ear Feed Podcast, where I interview thought-provoking guests who offer practical wisdom that you can use to create the life you want. 25 years ago, I was homeless and addicted to heroin. I've made my way through addiction recovery, learned to navigate my clinical depression, and figured out how to build a fulfilling life. The One-Ear Feed has over 30 million downloads and was named one of the best podcasts by Apple podcasts. Oprah Magazine named this is one of 22 podcasts to help you live your best life. You always have the chance to begin again and feed the best of yourself.

The trap is the person often thinks they'll act once they feel better. It's actually the other way around. I have had over 500 conversations with world-renowned experts and yet I'm still striving to be better. Join me on this journey. Listen to the one you feed on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. When my daughter ran off to hop trains, I was terrified I'd never see her again, so I followed her into the train yard. This is what it sounds like inside the box-top. And into the city of the rails, there I found a surprising world, so brutal and beautiful, that it changed me.

But the rails do that to everyone. There is another world out there, and if you want to play with the devil, you're going to find them there in the rail yard. I'm Danielle Morton. Come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to City of the Rails on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Or cityoftherails.com. you