On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Cynthia Erivo: ‘I Was Working To Prove That I Was Worth Loving’ (How to Finally Let Go of the Need For Approval & Build Real Self-Worth)

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

Do you ever feel like you need others to approve of your choices? When was the last time you did something just for yourself? In this heartfelt episode of On Purpose, Jay Shetty sits down with award-winning actress and singer Cynthia Erivo for a raw and inspiring conversation. Cynthia opens up about her whirlwind year—filming back to back movies, performing at the Oscars, and pouring her soul into her deeply personal new album, I Forgive You. Even in the busiest seasons of her life, Cynthia is discovering the power of stillness—making space to rest, reset, and care for herself mentally, emotionally, and physically.  Cynthia opens up about the emotional weight she’s carried—the pain of feeling abandoned by her father and the relentless pressure to keep proving herself. She and Jay explore the exhausting chase for external approval—and how it often leads to burnout, disconnection, and a version of success that doesn’t feel like yours. Cynthia’s path has been one of unlearning—releasing fear-based patterns and learning to create from a place of wholeness. Her journey is one of deep self-reflection and healing, which shines through in her new music. Together, Jay and Cynthia unpack what it really means to own your truth, make peace with your past, and finally feel at home in the present. Cynthia’s stories of heartbreak, transformation, and creative rebirth offer powerful insights for anyone navigating change or searching for their purpose. This episode is rich with wisdom, warmth, and a reminder that healing and growth are always possible. In this episode, you'll learn: How to Build Daily Habits That Ground You Anywhere How to Embrace Rest Without Guilt How to Heal from the Need for External Validation How to Let Go of the Pressure to Overachieve How to Share Your True Self Without Fear How to Create from a Place of Love, Not Pain Whether you’re navigating heartbreak, chasing your dreams, or simply learning how to slow down, know this: you are allowed to evolve, to let go, and to begin again. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:39 Have You Had a Moment to Take a Break? 04:34 How Do You Take Care of Yourself? 06:12 Are You Good at Slowing Down? 08:25 Why Your Body Needs to Follow Rituals 12:00 Difference Between Achieving and Overachieving 13:34 What Drives You to be an Overachiever? 16:59 Using Childhood Trauma to Transform Your Life 18:31 The Three Modes to Help You Achieve Your Goals 20:17 Missteps are the Steps We're Meant to Take 23:56 Choose to Live for Yourself First 26:16 Have You Ever Felt Like You Don’t Fit In? 29:23 Focus on Sharing Positive Energy 32:29 The Frequency Illusion 33:44 Empower People to Own Their Confidence 37:50 Teaching Kids About Confidence and Self Love 39:40 How to Show Up as Yourself 45:24 Behind the Glamourous Life of Celebrities 47:55 The Power of Music 51:00 How Do You Share Your Emotional Journey? 55:23 How Do You Live Through Heartbreak? 01:00:26 Can You Peacefully Disconnect Yourself from Someone? 01:05:16 Sometimes, It's Not About You 01:07:35 What is the Right Type of Validation to Crave? 01:14:20 The Core of Being a Good Person 01:21:13 The Experience of Abandonment Isn't Always Your Reality  01:25:10 Which Emotion is the Hardest to Face? Episode Resources: Cynthia Erivo | Website Cynthia Erivo | Instagram  Cynthia Erivo | Facebook Cynthia Erivok | TikTok Cynthia Erivo | YouTubeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart podcast. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler. Maren Morris is here. You came out of a marriage, you came out of quote unquote, country music, and you had a huge growth spurt from what I can tell. I was expanding and growing at a really fast pace. And yes, you could throw motherhood and the postpartum thing, learning about myself. There were a lot of identity crises going on, but I realized I

can't look back and slow down for people. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Made for This Mountain podcast exists to empower listeners to rise above their inner struggles and face the mountain in front of them. So during Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast, focus on your emotional well-being, and then climb that mountain. You will never be able to change or grow through the thing that you refuse to identify, the thing that you refuse to say, hey, this is my mountain. This is the struggle. Listen to Made for This Mountain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Radhie Devlukha, and I am the host of a really good cry podcast. And I had the opportunity to talk to Davey Brown with women, any kind of thing

where there might be this underlying edge of self-sacrifice as martyrdom. If you're never filling, you're telling yourself a story and you're actually avoiding what you should be doing. You gotta get in, you gotta get your hands dirty. Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I can tell when I walk into a room when someone wants me there or not.

Terrible tendencies sort of almost shut down immediately. The Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award winning actor and singer you know from the color purple, Harriet and Wicked. Oscar nominated, incredible actor, singer, author, and producer. Cynthia Erivo. What is the right type of validation to crave? All of it is healthy and all of it is unhealthy.

It's lovely to hear it, but if you don't feel that way about yourself, none of the comments, none of the making someone finally fall in love with you matters. You always felt like you didn't fit in. I had to come to terms with the fact that I don't think I'm ever going to fit in, and why would I want to? We don't want to let people down. We won't be able to be happy. We don't want to break someone's heart.

But the reality is that is how the way things go. I feel like a villain for doing it, for hurting someone. And this may be a hard thing to say, but sometimes hurting someone actually aids the growth of another person. Have you ever been heartbroken? The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you choose to become happier, healthier and more healed. I'm so grateful today because I get to invite back onto the podcast, one of your favorites, one of my dearest friends, someone that I have so much love and respect for and someone who is truly transforming the world through her energy and her presence.

She's a Tony, Emmy and Grammy award-winning actress, singer and songwriter, known for her powerhouse performances on stage and screen. She first captivated audiences with her Tony-winning portrayal of Selly in the colour purple on Broadway. Cynthia starred in Harriet, earning Academy Award nominations for both her performance and original song. And Cynthia took on the iconic role of Elphaba

in the film adaptation of Wicked, earning another Academy Award nomination for her powerful performance. Beyond acting, Cynthia continues to make waves in music with her sophomore album, I Forgive You, set for release this summer. I have had the opportunity to hear it. It is divine, it is transcendent, and it is truly powerful. Join us as we discuss Cynthia's insights on creativity, resilience,

and using her voice to inspire change. Please welcome to On Purpose, Cynthia Areva. Hello. Hey, Cynthia. Hey. Oh my gosh, you're just... You are magic. You know that, right?

Thank you. And I want to go back, and I was sharing this because it's so important for the audience to know. I interviewed you, I had a audio show in the pandemic called Safe Space. That's right, yeah. And I got the opportunity to interview over audio. We'd never met before. I don't think I'd even seen you at an event.

And I just heard your voice and I was captivated. And I'd seen your work. I knew of you, but I didn't really know you. Yeah. And I remember coming away from that audio interview, which is very different to a visual interview. And I remember just thinking you're one of the most unique artists in the world. You're truly one of the most unique humans in the world. And what's beautiful is we've been able to go on to have dinner together and hang out.

You've been on the show before your episode was just, people loved it. Like those clips are still going viral everywhere. And I'm just really honored to get to know you beyond this incredible life and world that you've created and say you are as magnificent and more in person. So thank you for coming back on. My favorite thing is having guests back on. So thank you. It's nice. I was excited to be able to come back and just spend a little bit more time with you. I love it. I want to start with just, you were literally just walking me through your schedule.

Yes. And I want to start with just how your life has been a whirlwind. First of all, you shot two movies. Yes. Not one. Yeah. And you were traveling the world. Obviously we all saw the press tour, which was absolutely insane and amazing and crazy.

You were performing at the Oscars. Like, you know, it's just unbelievable. And then I was asking you like, have you even had the moment to take a break? Not really, but I've been trying to make sure that I put some time in to just sort of breathe. I went from the Oscars the day after the Oscars, I went to South Africa and I was shooting a movie. I haven't completed the movie yet, but I'm going to go back and finish.

But I had finished that set of IP and then I went to London. But within that time, whilst I was in South Africa, I was lucky enough to have like just a couple of days where I didn't need to be on set. And so I would literally use those days to rest. And I don't mean going to do things and using them for my own, like literally staying in bed and resting, because I hadn't done that for a really long time. And I, I realized that my, my body and my brain and my heart really needed it so i fed myself like that just stopped for a second what i'm trying to do is i know it. Is going to ramp up again and get crazy again even before the next movie comes out. I'm with this album and all of the things that are happening this year alone before the end of the year, I know it's going to get insane.

So I think I'm trying to be conscious about how much rest I put in and how I put my schedule. So there are times where I just, this day is going to be for rest. Actually, we don't need to do that. Let's move it to this day so that there's a consecutive amount of time to sleep, time to just be, because I think it's important. I think it makes me a healthier person. What do you do to keep yourself so healthy and fit and alert? Because your work's so demanding.

Not just the travel, but we saw your performance, we saw the behind the scenes. We saw the audition tape. It's so physically, mentally and emotionally challenging. What are you doing on top of everything you just said, to really stay... I'm really picky about how I feed myself. So it's, I take my vitamins every day and that sounds very, very pedantic. And it sounds like almost like a kid, but I do take vitamins every single day. I make sure I'm eating in the right way when I fly.

And this is not, please all airlines do not blame me if people stop eating the food. Please I want you to eat if you need to. But I don't eat on planes. I bring my food with me because I really need to know what I'm putting in my body and usually when I land I go straight to something. I don't usually get the chance to sort of stop and reset. I have to go from one thing to another almost immediately. I drink tea. I do not drink alcohol ever. And that's just because that's how my body works. I'm a vegan, I don't really eat meat because I can't process it. I've learnt that over the years. And so it has taken time to get to this place to where I know what is right for me. And I have good people around me who will listen to me when I say, actually, I think it's a good time to not do this today.

It's about really being practical about how you take care of yourself and what you put in your body and, and when you get rest, and I'm not always the best when it comes to rest, I have to focus when it comes to that. I actually have to concentrate on making sure I put rest in, but I try. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you. Are you good at slowing down? No, I'm terrible.

I'm really bad at slowing down and, and, but I'm good when I am slow. You know what I mean? You know, sometimes people get really antsy about not going somewhere when they are still. I'm good at being still when I need to be still, you know? So once I get the chance to be still, I'm, I'm not going anywhere. But that's also taken time. You know, I haven't always been good at being in one place

and okay with not going anywhere, but now I'm really good at it because I know how valuable it is for me. Yeah, what got you there? Because you're so right, I think a lot of us, everyone will say, it takes me three days to even switch off. Yeah. And by the time you switch off, you're like, your vacation's over. Yeah.

And now you're going back to work. Like, what was it that helped you get to that space of how you just so beautifully said, you know what, I actually now, after some work, actually feel like I can be still and I can be present. Like, what was that that got you there? I felt like I was missing things. I think even in this last sort of year or two, I had to figure out how to be really, really present in what was going on and what's happening. And also, whilst I was shooting, I was writing this album. So it meant that lots of thought was happening,

lots of looking back on things and remembering. And you can't really do that if you aren't still sometimes. When you're sat in a studio and you have to write, you can't go anywhere. And so learning that practice and doing that has really sort of shone a light on the ways in which I wasn't good at being still at times and how I was missing certain things, not really being present in the moment

and enjoying what was going on. Strangely enough, doing all of those red carpets and things made me, forced me to sort of be present and be with whoever I was talking to at that moment. So I think what I wanted to do is lean into what that felt like for elongated periods of time. And for me right now, an elongated period of time could be anything from like one day to three days.

Like that's an elongated period of time for me. But it means that when I do get those opportunities, I can actually be there. Like, and be okay with doing nothing. Because sometimes doing nothing is doing enough. What you're saying so true that I feel like if you are where your feet are, then you'll always be where your feet are. And so if you're on the red carpet and that's where you are, then when you're off,

that's where you are. And I think a lot of us, and I've struggled with this in the past and got so much better with it, but when we're at work, we're thinking about the vacation. Right. And therefore when we're on the vacation, we're thinking about work because that inattention bleeds and you can't say, I want to be attentive on vacation. Right. And I want to be attentive on vacation. And I want to be inattentive at work because they both feed into each other. And I love hearing about the athlete in you though, like even when you were

talking about food and water and you are an athlete and so all of us that demand a lot from our body and I had this really interesting thing that happened to me this week where I did not go to South Africa or London, but I did my mini version of what you do. But this week I went to, I was in Palm Springs, Vegas, Boston and New York, four days, four work events. I was only in a city for if 12 hours. And that's normal for me too. And so I was moving and I got back at like 1 a.m. or I got into bed at 1 a.m. on Monday morning and I got back at like 1am or I got into bed at 1am on Monday morning.

And I got up at 8am to work. Well, I got up a bit early and then at 8am I was working out. And it was this really amazing feeling I had. I got in the gym and I felt amazing after doing it. And I was like, oh wow, like all of this stuff works. Like the vitamins, they work. It really does. Like it all works. Like people do it for a reason. It's pattern as well. It's pattern, yeah. So once you get your body into, it's almost like ritual. Your body needs a particular kind of ritual to keep it going.

Doesn't matter where you are in the world or what you do in the world. Like as long as there are certain things that don't change, your body will thank you for it. You know, it doesn't matter where I am in the world. I will always have my vitamins. Like I have like packets I take around with me. Right. And I always have my tea.

So I bring tea with me wherever I go. It's the same tea. So I'm never sort of thinking, Oh, I have to have this or that. No, that's the tea that I have. I like ruffles chips. So I'll always take ruffles chips with me wherever I go. That's my sort of like guilty pleasure. I'm going to have that.

But it means that, well, there's a particular protein bar. So I'm not searching for something else that doesn't aid me, actually helps me. I will always know where the gym is so I can actually go and do my long walk or my long run that way. There are things that are already set in place that don't take up much room, but they do serve a really great purpose. It means that I can show up and be ready wherever I am. And when I get back home, I can always slot back in.

And like, honestly, the jet lag should be crazy, but it is not. I woke up this morning at like seven. I have like a little one person infrared sauna, but I also take a, I bought an infrared sauna blanket, which I take with me wherever I go. Cause it means that I can also heal from the inside out. And the wonderful thing about that is that you can get, if I can't run, then I'll get an assortment or I'll do both, but those things

don't change. And so if you can keep healthy habits that keep you moving and working and your system is still alive and alert, then those things should stay. I think sometimes we underestimate what it is to form good habits. Those things really help and they've really helped me a lot. Yeah, and they take a long time to form. Yeah. But once you have them, then you like realize the value of them. And then you're like, I don't even want to miss them.

That's right. Even if I don't love doing them or even if they're hard, you're like, I don't even want to miss them. That's right. Even if I don't love doing them or even if they're hard. Yeah. You're like, I know I'll feel better after it. Yeah, I love that. I heard somewhere you said that you've always been an overachiever. Yeah. And I was trying to understand like,

what's the difference between achieving and overachieving? So I can, okay, make a song, good. Do an album, good. The standard album is usually maybe 10 to 13 songs. My album has 20 songs. Yeah. Right. You can spend six months doing something.

I'll probably spend a year doing it. Someone says, write a book and you get someone to help you write the book. I'll go, actually, I would really like to write this myself. And this is not necessarily the healthiest. I preface it with that. For me, I think I'm always constantly pushing to do what's the one thing further from the norm. Like you've done something really amazing, but how can I be more than amazing? How can I push more?

How can I do more? How much can I exert myself more to get more out of the thing that I'm doing? That for me is overachieving. And that isn't always a healthy way to think, but for me, I think it's become a habit. And so I've had to find healthy ways of doing that. So like, if I am going to do 20 songs, how am I going to make it easy for myself after that to let go of it for a second and take a break? Or if I am going to run three, like for three hours, am I going to feed myself to replenish

myself the way I need to after running those three hours? The balance has to be addressed when you're doing something like that. No, that makes a lot of sense. Where does that drive come from? Where's that ambition come from? Have you always had it since day one? I think I have always had it. I think it's first came from my mom because I think she has that sort of drive

and want to achieve. She's, I'm raised by a single mom and she really, I'm not entirely sure how she managed to do all the things she was able to do. This is a woman who immigrated from Nigeria when she was in her twenties, got her degree in nursing, went from nursing to being a health visitor, which is a big massive jump, owns her own home, had her own car. But we're not middle-class by any means working-class people who didn't have very much, but my mum was always pushing to make sure that she could have and that we could have. So I think I watched and witnessed her do that on her own and so picked that sort of those

habits, those traits up. And then I think in my teenage hood, after experiencing some traumatic things, that sort of also became a driving force too, which is not necessarily the best thing because it can't sustain, but it's sort of like, I'll show everybody that I can do this. And that sort of drove a lot of it. And then it didn't sustain. Then I was like, actually, I really want to do this for myself. And I love what I'm doing. And if I'm going to do something, I want to do it to the very best of my abilities.

It stopped being about what I saw my mom do, which was wonderful and stopped being about proving to people and is now about like sort of like eking out the maximum amount of joy from something by doing the most I can do with it. You know, by learning all of the details that I can about whatever it is I'm doing. How do I connect the most? And in connecting the most, it makes me be the best I can be. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I want to talk about all those transitions because they're so beautiful. And I literally was having this conversation with a friend the other day about my mom. And so my dad was less present.

It's not that he wasn't there, but he was less present when I was growing up. And so my mom was the breadwinner of the house. She made us breakfast in the morning, dropped us to school with my sister, made us a packed lunch, went to work, picked us up from school, came home, made us dinner, went out again to work and came home. And I still have no idea. I don't know how we did it.

I have no idea how she did it. And we always had a fresh dinner every day, a fresh lunch every day, a fresh breakfast, never had to eat leftovers. She'd always believed that her home cooked meal was so important. And I look at my mom now and I just think like, how did you do it? Like, and I completely agree with you. My work ethic, I think, comes from watching my mom.

So I can relate to that. But it's like, I saw my mom after doing all of that working in the evening, because she had to. And I saw her like turning up when it was really, really hard. And it's amazing how that rubs off on you and how you mirror what you see at home. And again, like you said, it's not that it was the healthiest, she had to do it for survival, it wasn't a choice. Right, it's not a choice.

Yeah. And so we are lucky that we have the ability to slow down or have more resources or whatever it may be, but it is amazing how much our parents' work ethic. Like rubs off on you. Yeah. It's like it becomes part of the DNA without you even realizing that it's part of your DNA anymore. You know?

Yeah. What were some of those, if you're comfortable sharing, what were some of those teenage traumas that you went through? Oh, no, I've spoken about it. Honestly, when I was 16, my dad and I went through a rural separation. He no longer wanted to be a part of my life. And that was like a big turning point for me because I had to figure out what that meant and for a long time that sort of fueled the way I would work because you

end up working to prove to someone that you're worthy of being loved or worthy of being looked after or wanted. And that's, that was like a big moment for me in general. And I think that it's sort of like a formative years, I think I was 16 when it happened. So it really was a turning point and a seminal moment in my growth that it happened in. And it took time to get over the hill or over the hump of that and forgive and let go and be able to do things, not for that purpose, but for me. I had to sort of really do some thinking and working to shift that habit.

But I'm very glad I did, because it doesn't sustain you. It can only last for so long, and it means that the work you're doing not on purpose, but it comes from the wrong place. And for a while it worked, but then it didn't. And when, when it doesn't, you have to figure out how to make it work from something else and it feels a lot better to not be working from that place anymore. There's a really beautiful system in Eastern philosophy that talks about how you can do anything from three different modes.

Yeah. So you have the mode of ignorance, which means you're doing things out of fear and insecurity. Right. So you're doing something because you're scared, you're doing something because it's not survival, it's even like more negatively motivated than that. Yeah. Then the second is the mode of passion, which is what you're saying, which is like, I'm

going to prove someone wrong. I'm going to do it for a result. I'm going to do it because I want to show people, I want to do it with that energy. And then finally you come to love or duty or joy or bliss. And it's a ladder. Yeah. And what I love about what you're saying is you've taken step up the ladder. Because I think sometimes we make ourselves feel bad, like,

or if I'm doing something to prove someone wrong, I shouldn't do it because that's a bad motive. And it's, but it's like, sometimes that's the only thing that can, if that's the only motive, you know, what else are you supposed to do? You have to use it. And if you use it to make good work, then you use it to make good work. And I think what we want to make sure work, then you use it to make good work. And I think what we want to make sure of when we're doing that is that at some point we're okay to allow

that to be what it was and to move on from it, you know? And everyone has their own time. I had it my time and someone else will be still working in from that mode and if it's still working for them, it's still working for them. But at some point they will come to a realization that, I don't know if this works for me anymore and it doesn't feel as good anymore. So when you, and it's about noticing when it doesn't feel the way you want it to feel anymore. And so what am I now searching for?

Am I searching for joy? Am I searching for bliss? Am I searching for contentment? And if that's the case, then it has to come from somewhere else. And so you seek to work in a different way. Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel. I just remember everything getting dark. I'm dying.

We step beyond the edge of what we know. To open our consciousness to something more than just what's in that Western box. In return. I clinically died. The heart stopped beating. Which I was dead for 11.5 minutes. My name is Dan Bush. My mission is simple, to find, explore,

and share these stories. I'm not a victim, I'm a survivor. You're strongest when you're the most vulnerable. To remind us what it means to be alive. Not just that I was the guy that cut his arm off, but I'm the guy who is smiling when he cut his arm off. Alive Again, a podcast about the fragility of life, the strength of the human spirit,

and what it means to truly live. Listen to Alive Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko.

It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his pizjar in our apartment.

I collect my roommates toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. Made for This Mountain is a podcast

that exists to empower listeners to rise above their struggles, break free from the chains of trauma, and silence the negative voices that have kept them small. Through raw conversations, real stories, and actionable guidance, you can learn to face the mountain that is in front of you. You will never be able to change or grow through the thing that you refuse to identify. The thing that you refuse to say, hey, this is my mountain.

This is the struggle. This is the thing that's in front of me. You can't make that mountain move without actually diving into it. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, a time to conquer the things that once felt impossible and step boldly into the best version of yourself to awaken the unstoppable strength that's inside of us all. So tune into the podcast, focus on your emotional wellbeing and climb your personal mountain. Because it's impossible for you to be the most authentic you. It's impossible for you to love you fully if all you're doing is living to please people. Your mountain is that.

Listen to Made for This Mountain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now back to the discussion. When you talk about these things, it feels like you've like held your hand through it, which is like a really beautiful visual to have, because I think what we're good at doing it as humans is as soon as something doesn't serve us, we're like, oh, I've been getting it wrong for three years. Now I'm going to get it right. And it's like, well, no, that served you.

Yeah. Like even if it wasn't sustainable, as you rightly said, it served you and it was important and it mattered. So I think what I'm saying is if someone's listening right now and they're like, Cynthia, you know what? I've spent the last three years trying to prove my parents wrong. I've spent the last five years trying to prove my ex wrong.

I've spent the last seven years trying to prove my teachers wrong at school or whatever it may be. But I know it's not sustainable. Like I hear you in that place. How would you encourage people to hold their hand through that transition into rising, but not... Sometimes I get the question, what would you give your advice? Would you give you a younger self or what would you say to your younger

self if you could meet her or is there anything you, there's three different questions, but then the other question is, would you change anything if you could go back? My answer is always, I would never change anything because I think that every step we take, even the things that we think are wrong turns, are the teachers. They're the way we get to where we get to, you know what I mean? If I was to change something, I don't know that I would be sat here in front of you. I think some of what we might think of missteps were the if I was to change something, I don't know that I would be sat here in front of you. I think some of what we might think of missteps were the steps I was supposed to take. So if you're at home and you're watching this and you're thinking, oh, but I've been doing

this and I know it's not sustainable, but how do I move from that? Well, you take your time. It will come. And if that's what's feeding you right now, if that's the way, if that's the thing that gets you up out of bed and gets you energized to move forward, then keep using it. And when you realize, oh, actually, maybe today I'll do it from a place of, I want to cheer someone up.

That is as much of, that's love as well. So it's just taking small decision, changing your mind bit by bit. And don't be so hard on yourself because you've chosen other things to encourage yourself to move forward and to do well. If you haven't hurt anyone by using the pain that you've been through,

by using the hurt that you've been through, by using the rejection that you've experienced, by using the shame that you've been through by using the rejection that you've experienced by using the shame that you've experienced. And you've managed to transmute all of that into energy that makes you create positive work. Or you've done something really good because technically you've given all of those people, all those things energy in the most positive way. Now you get to find a way to give yourself positive energy. So I would say, pat yourself on the back for managing to do that because it takes a lot of time and energy to do that and be easy. That change in the way you move forward will come because you want it to come. The fact that you even are thinking about

trying to work in a different way means that you're putting the idea that you can work in a different way into the universe and telling yourself, we can work in a different way. And one day you'll work in a different way. Right now, what you're doing isn't hurting anyone. It costs you more than it costs anyone else, but you're also serving yourself the way you know how to. And then you'll find another way to serve yourself and other people. It's actually such a beautiful journey to take when you kind of, you know, when you're going through it always feels like the worst,

because when you're trying to prove someone wrong, you feel controlled by them. Yeah. You feel they still own your journey and you. And the moment you let go, you recognize, oh no, I'm taking back my control and that I have ownership. Yeah. And I think that's what we're all looking for in life. When you think about as humans, I was having a conversation this morning

with one of my friends who's an incredible, like, you know, one of the greatest therapists on the planet. And we're just having a friendly conversation, but we were saying, I don't think humans even know what they want anymore. Like we think we want happiness, but do we really?

Like is that what we're looking for? Or do we want validation? Or do we want approval? Or do we want love? Like what do we want? And I think as we're? Or do we want love? Like, what do we want? And I think as we're talking about right now, I'm thinking about it. What we've really want is to feel agency and autonomy and control over our lives and not feel like we're living for someone else and not feel like we're trying to, because even if you're trying to prove someone wrong, you're still living for them.

Right. That's right. And I think we want to feel like, no, I'm living for me. Yeah. I love the idea that we're sort of trying to figure out what we want. Do we want happiness? Do we want contentment? But actually the idea that we're simply seeking agency over our lives allows us

to own all of those things. So yes, we do want happiness, but maybe it's contentment. But also we want to have agency over the sadness that we have. So it's not because of someone else, but we can allow ourselves to feel something. And then we can decide when we actually want to damp down that feeling, let it go. We can let that sort of dissipate for ourselves because we have the agency over it. We have the agency of what we choose to feel happy over. Or if we are feeling grief, then it's our grief, not someone else's grief. That, I mean, takes time to realize. But it's our grief, not someone else's grief, you know? That, I mean, takes time to realize.

But it's that. That, I think, is the ultimate goal for most of us to be able to decide, no, actually, this is my life and I'm choosing to feel and live this way for me first. And then, I can use the energy that I am saving by having agency over my life for good that will serve other people as well. That's I think, once we can be in true ownership of who we are and what we do for ourselves, there's more space for everyone else. Do you think that journey was harder for you? Because you've talked about how like you always felt like you didn't fit in. Oh yeah.

I think I had to come to terms with the fact that I don't think I'm ever going to fit in and why would I want to? But I think it was when you're young, it doesn't feel as good because you really do want to fit. You do want to be a part of something. But I think that as I've grown and as I've learned, my difference and the not feeling like I fit in has actually really helped me become who I want to be. I think if I was the same as everybody else, you wouldn't know me. I think my not fitting has forced me to get to know myself deeply and learn about who I am and what makes me tick and to be honest about the things that sort of like trigger me or don't trigger me or the things that make me tick and the things that make that bring me joy and the things that like energize

me. I was talking to someone yesterday and I said to them, I can sometimes tell when I walk into a room when someone wants me there or not and my tendency, a terrible tendency is sort of almost shut down immediately because I want to be in a room where someone wants me to be in the room with them. I want to be able to share that. And why don't we maybe shift that and change that. And maybe you walk in with the energy of openness and see if you can shift the energy, maybe don't expect the energy when you walk in, maybe, maybe try and change that energy when you get there.

And I hadn't thought of that before. And I thought that's something that I maybe 10 years ago wouldn't have been open to hearing because the automatic is worth, they don't want me here, what's why don't they want me here? What's wrong if I done something wrong as opposed to maybe they've just had a bad day, maybe they woke up on the wrong side of the bed and they just don't have the energy right now. So maybe you feed the energy into the room and maybe that might shift things. And I think because I've started to learn and I've been in possession of the knowledge

that my difference isn't something that separates, but can connect. Wow. Maybe it means that using that difference in places allows the space to open up a little bit more, you know? I love that. That's such a cool idea. Yeah. And I couldn't agree with it more.

It's so important. I think we do live in a world right now that's always like, well, they don't want me there or they don't like me. And we're almost just giving away our agency. Because what you just said, that statement is claiming back our agency. And saying, well, yeah, they may not want me there, but I want to be there. And I'm going to walk in as if I belong. Yeah.

I didn't walk in thinking I don't want them there. So maybe if I let them know, well, I want you here. They'll go, oh, I'm wanted. So, well, maybe we can share that space, you know. There's ways to shift the conversation, shift the energy wherever you are. And I think, us as human beings, sometimes we put it on the other person to do that. When actually, if you're confident enough about what you bring, you can actually shift and share yourself. I've seen that so many times. It just, well, and I see it when I'm on the road.

Yeah. I see it through, I was speaking at an event on Sunday and they had like, what is it like when you're on set and there's food for everyone? Oh, like a sharing table, like a round table. Yeah, like just like that kind of thing. It was like for all the, it's for the helpers, the volunteers, the speakers, like everyone to just take food.

Yeah, yeah. And there was this lady there, and I mentioned to her that I was plant-based. Yeah. And I was like, could you just walk me through the options? Yeah. She did it with so much enthusiasm. Like I asked her just a really basic question. I was nice, but I wasn't...

I was just like, hey, how are you? I was like, hey, how's it going? Like I'm plant-based, could you help me out? Yeah. And I was fine. Like my energy was okay. Like maybe my energy was fine. Like I was neutral. It wasn't positive, it wasn't negative. It was just easy. It help me out? Yeah. And I was fine. Like my energy was OK. Like maybe my energy was fine. Like I was neutral.

It wasn't positive, it wasn't negative. It was just easy. It was just easy. Yeah. And she just responded. Yeah, with such joy. She was like a mum. Like I felt like she had that motherly energy of like,

what do you want? Like this is Plant Based, this and that. Can I get you a drink? Yeah. And I said to her, I was with a colleague and I just said, I was like, that is like the energy of just life. And it's not, her job was not easy.

She wasn't doing something that was physically easy. She wasn't doing something where it's probably a thankless task. Like, but she was so passionate about it. And I was, and I said to her, I was like, I hope you just know, like you made my day. And it was, it's always people like that, that you just kind of bump into. And I was like, we've got to become better as humans at noticing it and telling them that because we would notice it if they weren't like that. So if she had responded to me and be like, oh yeah, so over there.

Yeah. That you would notice. I would have been a strop, right? You'd be like, I probably wouldn't, but I know a few years ago. It's the thing that you would like, you take it with you. Yeah, you take it with you and you're like, oh God, why are they so like, what's wrong with, right? And we all carry that. But when someone does something amazing, you kind like, it would, you take it with you. Yeah, you take it with you and you're like, Oh God, why are they so like, what's wrong with, right? And we all carry that.

But when someone does something amazing, you kind of take it for granted and you go, Oh yeah, of course, they're just being nice. The thing is, I think we sometimes say for granted that that kind of energy is infectious. It is. Truly. Yeah. You know, it's the simple sort of act of smiling at someone in the street, right?

That smile will pass on. It'll go from one person to another person to another person. You don't know who you're smiling at. And if that person, if you're smiling at someone who's had a bit of a rough day and they go, oh, someone's noticed me and they smiled at me. Well, you'll remember that person smiled at me and then you might smile and that smile might pass into someone else and you don't know who you're smiling at, how far that smile goes.

And what we are not very good at is telling other people, Hey, this person smiled at me in the street and it was really sweet. And I don't know who they were, but it was really lovely because that energy is also infectious. Yes. What we normally do is that she like, she bumps into me and I don't know why, but like she or he said that and it wasn't really nice that we pass that energy on. Instead of the energy that brightens, we are better at sort of sharing the energy that doesn't.

And as humans who have to share a planet, we should probably get better at sharing what's bright. Because yes, we're not always going to go through great times, but it's the little things that can move us from a place of darkness to a place of light. Yeah, I love that. Have you heard of something called the frequency illusion? So the frequency illusion is this idea. It's the idea of like, if I'm thinking about buying a red car, and I'll see red cars everywhere. Or like, if I learned a new word, and now hear everyone saying that word, or whatever it may be. And so the frequency illusion is when you start to notice something, you start to notice it more. And we think that the world suddenly has more red cars,

or the world suddenly is more intellectual because they're using this word. The truth is, the world hasn't changed. You just notice it more. And the brain is wired to do that. And what you just pointed out is that it's not about, this isn't positive thinking and this is not like toxic positivity. No. What it is, is whatever I notice, I'm going to notice more of it. Right. So if I only notice when people frown and people kind of, you know, push me aside

or people don't open the door, I'm going to notice that more and more and more. Yeah. But if I notice the smile on the street, if I notice the nice gesture from the lunch lady, if I notice that, then all of a sudden, that's how I start to see things. And it's not faking it. It's not like pretending that the world's all roses and rainbows and all that kind of stuff, but it's the idea that our brain is just wired to notice.

And whatever you notice, you will see more of. I want to talk about your new album. There's no mask. there's no veil. It's this true transparent, you know, communication. The first time I listened to it, cause I was lucky enough to get an early one for this, I had my eyes closed the whole time and I just sat and I listened to it in order as it was, I didn't skip. I didn't need to.

And it really was just this, it really felt like a divine experience. Like it was very, I like music and I love music, but it was very different. And it was different because it felt familiar to my soul. Yeah. And that's why when I was messaging you about it last night before you were coming, I was like, it was divine, it was transcendent, because it was, it just, it felt otherworldly in the experience, but then felt really familiar and human. And I've got so many questions about it, but I want to let you, you felt, I felt like there was something you were going to say after that, that I want to let you.

Yeah, I think I knew when I was going into it, that I wanted to make something that felt like connective tissue to who I was. And part of me was deeply petrified to write this album just because I knew I was going to be so transparent and really human in the subjects and just extremely truthful, but I didn't really know how else to write it. So I just sort of had to let go and just write. And I think the other worldliness may be in the composition of things, but even that was a really human experience. It wasn't, I didn't make any vocal arrangements.

There were no written, there's no written music. I would do it as I was going along and I would know what I wanted. And then I would sort of start with a vocal pad and I would start it as I was going along and I would know what I wanted and then I would sort of start with a vocal pad and I would start with a line and that line would repeat the line and we'd create a stack and then over that stack I would just create another line and there was no leaving the booth to write what the next line was. As a line happened I would think of another line and sometimes I would distract myself because the line was creating itself

as I was singing the line before. And that would go on and go on and go on until there was nothing left. So for me, it really was an experience of pouring all of myself into it every single time. And I would say to my producer, Will, who's also the engineer on it and was co-writing with me, that it was always, it always felt really emotional when I would do the vocal pads, I always felt deeply connected to the music because it

was the rawest form of vocalizing and making music that I could think of without any real structure necessarily. I just knew the emotion that I wanted and that's what I would then write over. A lot of these songs just started with a vocal pad and a melody. That's what would happen. Yeah. Wow. Has that always been your process or was that a new discovery? I think I've always wanted it to be my process, but I don't think until now

I've been brave enough to do it that way. I've never done it like this before and it felt so easy to do. It felt like a real natural way of exercising the music that I had in myself. Yeah. And what did you want people to feel throughout it? What was, you were telling me earlier about how every song, even the order and the arc was structured. Yeah.

What was the kind of the emotional journey you wanted people to go on? At the beginning, it's, it really is about heartbreak and love and loss. But it's also in a way about me breaking someone's heart or what we put on ourselves as people in relationship, the responsibility we put on ourselves sometimes when we're in relationship, but when it's not, doesn't feel right, when it's not right. And we find it hard to disconnect from those relationships and we find it hard to speak about

what we're actually feeling when we're in them. And I think I wanted people to be okay with admitting when they're in the wrong space, when it isn't right anymore, when you have to go. And also that base feeling of it's your fault as well, you know, because sometimes we feel a lot of guilt for saying that. But because our relationships are made of two, three, however many people are in your relationship, but it's not one-sided. Relationships are made of the people that are in them. And what happens within those relationships are made of the people within them, even when you don't think they are. If you dig deep enough, you'll

find that you both have responsibility in there. And so, I think there was sort of like the assuming of responsibility and also the willingness to be like, also, your responsibility is this too. This is how I felt, but also I understand that I made you feel that way. And then I wanted people to know that in that next section, there's the discovery of something new, something passionate within yourself and with another person and how human that is. Because sometimes we get very ashamed of talking about passion and desire. And I wanted to talk about that. And I think passion and desire aren't necessarily things that people associate me with, but they are also very human experiences, which I have experienced as someone who's in her late 30s. I think it's important for

people to know that that is a part of me. And that third section is about when your feet touch the ground, after all the desire and the passion and the headiness of what that can be, that when your feet touch the ground, you fall in love for real. That it isn't just about the other person, but it really is with you as well to fall in love again with who you are. That sometimes within our relationships, we can lose ourselves a little bit, but then eventually, if you want, you can come back to yourself. And that fourth section is about forgiveness, which is what this album is called. It is about forgiving the person you were with, the person that you were, and the person you may have become because of it, forgiving the mistakes that you might have made because they lead to this place. And I guess in the

grand scheme of things, it is really about forgiving yourself and allowing the fact that your human experiences are just that, the experiences we have as human beings that usher us through our lives. The things I've been through have made me really sort of like look back on how I've dealt with certain situations and sometimes I've not necessarily been my best self, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a good human being. And I think sometimes we mistake not being our best selves with being a bad human being. And I think sometimes we have to say that that's not the same thing. And that we can forgive ourselves for not being our best selves because we want to be good human beings.

Even just listening to you explain that. Yeah. I mean, I had so many thoughts that went through my mind. I was just thinking about how it's so common for us to start hating ourselves and being harsh on ourselves when the situation is so complex. Yeah. But almost our simple answer is I'm the problem. Yeah.

It's like, if someone breaks up with us, we think, I'm the problem. I'm the weak one. It's over. If we choose to end something, we still blame ourselves. If you're someone who's self-reflective enough, you still blame yourself. You go, well, I messed up. I don't deserve love. Maybe I'll never get it. And I had a message recently from a friend who was going through a breakup and they were just like, I'm breaking up because I don't think

this helps me grow anymore. It's not even like there's anything wrong with it. It's just like, it's not right for me anymore. But they were like, I'm just feeling guilty. And they're like, I also feel guilty because obviously the other person feels bad and I can't even give them a real answer for me because there isn't. it's just a feeling.

And I, and it is so interesting how forgiveness is such the topic. I'm thinking about our audience right now. One thing I've been trying to ask people to help people is have you ever been heartbroken and what was the process or what was the one thing that helped you live through that? Because I think so many of our audience are in that position. Yeah. They come to me for that a lot. What was helpful to you? I have definitely been heartbroken in separate occasions.

And because this happened to different parts of my life, I reacted in different ways. parts of my life, I reacted in different ways. Earlier on, I really needed my friends. I really needed people around me to just surround me with love. And for me, music has always been the bomb. So I would listen and I would sort of like try to feed myself with the things that would give me good energy. And for me that sometimes is like running, working out and eating good food, speaking to good people, having good experiences, creating newer memories on my own. And that really was the thing that would help me with heartbreak, but also like dealing with the fact that I felt heartbroken and admitting, oh, this broke my heart. And then, later on, it really was about, I love a conversation. I like real closure, so I

want to have like an actual real conversation. And I've always, not necessarily always, but I tried to in most of the relationships that have ended, and it's not me ending them, have given an opportunity for conversation, like to talk about it. And I've tried to be as honest and I've asked the person to be honest about what it is that has happened, whether or not that's taken, not always, and then sometimes it's taken sort of later on. Fine. But it's really, I think if you can have your conversation, have the conversation and try to end it as amicably as you possibly can. And if you can't, then I know this sounds really strange, but have the conversation, but just not with that person. Like what would that conversation in your head be?

How would you have had that conversation? What would that conversation in your head be? How would you have had that conversation? What would you have said if you had the opportunity to sit in front of someone, say, hey, this really hurt my feelings and this is where I am with this right now and I'm really finding it hard to deal with or my heart's broken and I need it to heal and have those conversations, write those feelings down. The one thing you cannot do is keep a hold of that and swallow the feeling and never let it out because I think it grows, it becomes something else. A heartbreak that isn't shared, a heartbreak that isn't exorcised, I think becomes resentment and becomes sour, you know? Because heartbreak is a real emotion. It's actually strange,

you're quite a lovely, beautiful emotion. It means you're alive. If you have a heart to break, it means your heart is beating. So it's not a bad emotion. However, if you harbor it and never let it go and never share it, just like you share love, just like you share happiness and you share joy, then it becomes something else. We don't keep joy to ourselves. We can't, it's impossible to, it sort of comes out of us, whether we like it or not. We don't keep love to ourselves. We want to give out love, we want to share love

because that only multiplies. If we keep heartbreak to ourselves, it becomes something else. It mutates, metastasize, and it sticks to us. And what that does is stops us from being able to, if you don't mend your heart, it can't be whole again for something else. And I'm assuming that anyone who has their heart broken wants their heart to be whole again so that they can share their heart with someone else again.

Yeah, wow, yeah, I love that. I love that. That really resonated, that idea of how emotions are not meant to be held onto. And the sad and the tough ones are the only ones that we hold onto tightly. And if there was someone who was feeling like, oh my God, there's only this much joy in the world, I'm going to hold on to it. Which we do sometimes as well. We're like, oh no, no, I'm going to be really scarce about joy.

We know that doesn't work either because it disappears, it goes away. And yeah, it's so interesting that idea of why we hold on to the hard emotions and don't hold on to the beautiful ones. And it limits us. But first, here's a quick word from the brands that support the show. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator,

and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind voiceover, the movement that exploded in 2024. VoiceOver is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. It's political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be. These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover, to make it

customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that are being naked together. How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves.

Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey y'all, it's your girl, T.S. Madison, coming to you live and in color from the Outlaws podcast. On this week's episode, we're talking to none other than Chaperone and Sasha Colby. And let me tell you, no topping is off limits, honey.

We talk about the lovers, the haters, and the creator. I worked at Scooter's Coffee Drive-Thru Kiosk. And you are from the Midwest. And in the Midwest, they told you, well, just be humble. Like, you've heard this countless times. You too, right? Oh, yeah, it's very, like, big in Hawaii. Mine was, I think, wrapped up in, like, Christian Dill.

Oh, yeah. We definitely had, like, some Jehovah's Witness guilt, I think, wrapped up in, like, Christian Dill. Oh, yeah. We definitely had, like, some Jehovah's Witness guilt there. Yeah. Wait, were you Jehovah's Witness? Yeah. So you were Jehovah's Witness? I grew up that, yeah. My family still is.

Hey. Or no. Bye. Listen, she may have been working the drive through in 2020, but she's the name on everybody's lips now, honey. Listen to Outlaws with T.S. Madison on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, honey. ["The Big Game"]

A lot of times, the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways. Three or four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action, and that's just one of the things we'll be covering on Everybody's Business from Bloomberg Business Week.

I'm Max Chafkin. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives. With guests like Businessweek editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the boardrooms, the backrooms, even the signal chats that make our economy tick.

Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing. So listen to everybody's business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in. When I'm thinking about your album and that idea of what you just said of

recognizing that we can forgive ourselves for ways in which we want to be better. Yeah. But that doesn't make us a bad person. Yeah. I think you're so right that as humans, we've got good at making it this binary black and white choice of I'm either a good person or I'm a bad person. Right. And actually I've seen people with good intentions do more bad because they're trying so hard to be a good person

rather than taking that. Like I remember a guy that I was mentoring a while ago, he was saying like, oh, I don't want to break up with her because it will hurt her. And I was like, but you're hurting yourself and you're hurting her for longer because you don't want to be seen as a bad person. Right. So you'd rather be seen as a good guy. Yeah. Hurt her long-term and hurt yourself. Yeah. And by the way, we all go through this. Yeah.

You don't want to let people down. And so it's like, how, how did you reconcile those two things? Because I think it's a very human thing to like, we don't want to let people down. No. We won't be able to be happy. Yeah. We don't want to break someone's heart, but the reality is that is how the way things go, right?

I think in the long term, so when I, when I had broken up with someone, when it was my choice to break up with someone, I saw very clearly that we weren't growing together anymore and that we weren't right for one another anymore and that us being together would actually be to the detriment of the both of us. If I'm in something that I'm miserable in, that I'm not happy in, then the likelihood is that is going to grow within the relationship,

that I'm going to continue to be miserable, and that person is also going to experience the most miserable version of myself. And that isn't good for anyone because I'm not fertile ground for happiness if I'm doing that. Which means it removes the ability for the other person also to be in a relationship that's happy. And I would rather remove myself from the situation so that they can go on and find whoever it is that they're meant to be with. Because we will find the people that we're meant to be with, and maybe we're meant to be with someone for a season, and

then we move on and find the person that we're meant to be with for life. Or maybe we're meant to be with several people for a season, and that's what we're meant to do. Or we're meant to learn from the people that we're with to become the people that we're supposed to be before we end up in the relationship we're supposed to end up in. And I just knew that I couldn't continue to pretend to be something I wasn't within a relationship that wasn't, it wasn't feeding me in the way I needed it to. And because of that, I knew it wasn't going to be feeding the other person. Yeah, that resonates so strongly as well.

It's really hard though. It is, it is. You feel like such a let down for doing it. You feel, I hate to use this word, but you feel like a villain for doing it, for hurting someone. But sometimes, and this may be a hard thing to say, but sometimes hurting someone actually aids the growth of another person. When we experience hurt, we are forced to grow. Again, it is another human emotion that we have to experience as we grow because it teaches us about what we are, how

to react or how to soothe, how to use the hurt to turn into something else, right? We're all going to be hurt at some point in our lives. That is not something that we can prevent. We're all going to hurt someone in our lives. That's also something we cannot prevent. We are also always going to, we are all going to be hurt ourselves in general. It's not going to, that's something we can't prevent. And it's not something we run headlong into, but when it presents itself, we

also have to be brave enough to be the people that either experience it or serve it, not vindictively, not because we want to, but because it's sometimes necessary to begin again. Yeah. I love what you just said there that sometimes we hurt people and sometimes people hurt us and then sometimes we hurt ourselves and all of that you can't prevent, that's going to happen in the natural flow of life. And all we can learn to do is those people that we hurt, try to help in the

best way possible and recognize that. Like I'm thinking about it as you're talking about it, whenever I've, if I've broken up with someone, there's no part of me that was excited about it or happy about it or felt good about it. Not only because I believe I'm a good person and want to be a good person, but because I don't like causing anyone pain. But it made me, what it changed in me was it made me more responsible in the future of how I was with someone and how I conducted myself and thought about a relationship.

When I was a teenager, probably fell too quick, probably like, you know, was all in, like didn't really recognize what that was. And as I grew up, it was like, no, okay, now I understand. I need to slow things down. Like one of the things I say to so many people is don't fall in love too fast. Because when you fall in love too fast, that's when love is blind. Right. That's when you fall.

You haven't learnt the person yet. And you haven't really understood. Like you understand their, you understand what they like, but you don't really know anything about them beyond that. You understand very little information about them. But it's such a hard process to forgive ourselves for breaking someone's heart and to forgive ourselves for when someone breaks our heart. Right.

Because if someone breaks up with you. Why didn't I see? How come I didn't I see? How come I didn't know? All of those things. All of those things. You, sometimes you won't see. And also sometimes it's nothing to do with you.

Sometimes it's not you. It's that the other person needs something else and that's okay. And sometimes it might be the other way around. Sometimes it isn't them. You need something else. That, that's actually it. That's it. Like that, that what you just said there, that is actually what it is that when

you're breaking up with them, it's actually all to do with you. And when they broke up with you, it was all to do with them. And the problem is in both those situations, we make it all about us. It's our fault. We messed up. Right, right, right. You know, or we blame it on them as well. Yeah, no, it's fascinating.

There was a couple of lyrics from the album that I just, I had to talk about. So this is from the song that's already out, Replay. Yes. And I'm going to, I should let you do this, but I'll do it anyway to remind you. I'm the best overachiever. There's not anyone like me. And you'd think that was a good thing till you're told that's not healthy. You spend every waking hour working hard to write your will, patiently waiting

for validation till you're empty and unfulfilled. So powerful. I love it. It's even just reading it. It's like, and then getting to hear you sing it. The part that I was really, that really stood out to me, because I think so many people struggle with it today is this waiting for validation. There's such a, you'll want to be validated.

Yes. I've been thinking about this a lot. Yeah. What is the right type of validation to crave and what's the unhealthy validation to crave? I don't even know because I think all of it is healthy and all of it is unhealthy to be honest, because the only real validation that matters is what you feel about yourself on the inside once you've done something.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Because you're never really going to please everybody. Everyone is seeing you objectively. They have their own idea of who you are and what you've been through and the type of human being you are and the type of experiences you have. They haven't lived your experience. So all they have is what you tell them, right? All they have is what they see of you. And so, as wonderful as it is when people are lovely and they say complimentary things and they, you know, love the musical, there's also the other side that isn't

that and that doesn't and isn't kind. And so if we don't take them in equal measure, then we're suggesting that one is more important than the other, but both come from people who are experiencing you in the exact same way, right? So why wouldn't you take the bad and the good in equal measure, but it doesn't feel good to take the bad in equal measure as the good, right? So we make this more important than this.

So, I honestly think that I spent a lot of my life trying to do things like, you know, I was talking about my dad and what that felt like and I was trying to prove to him that I was lovable and, you know, in the beginning of this, I would do my work and I was trying to prove to him that I was lovable. And, you know, in the beginning of this, I would do my work and I want, you know, whether it be social media or whether it be reviews, and you want the good reviews and you want people to say really nice things. You want people who you've never met to love you. And that is the driving force behind the work. And in the end, it doesn't serve you at all. It's wonderful. It's lovely to hear it. But if you don't feel that way about yourself, if you don't believe

in the work you're doing, if you don't love the skin that you're in, the work that comes from you, the things that you get to say, the people you get to meet. If you don't love that work, none of the comments, none of the lovely compliments, none of the making someone finally fall in love with you matters. What it does is come to an empty shell. You have to learn how to fill up yourself because that's what fills you. That's what feels actually good. That's what actually feels good. Like what is, what does this work, how does this work serve you in

your life? Does it serve other people? And I also think that in doing of work, sometimes we think that it's only, it is about us, but it's a cyclical thing. I think if you can do the best you can do in your work, if you can really pull yourself into the work in the right way that feels authentic to who you are, then you can actually serve that work to other people that you can actually be of service to other people. And I really, I talk about this when it comes to music and comes to teaching, when it comes to singing, it's less about me getting a lot of big applause at the end of a song. That is lovely, but that couldn't

matter less than actually looking at someone's eyes in the audience and knowing that I've connected with them, knowing that this song means the world to this person, that this song is an expression of what they also might be feeling, that my being able to sing something in a way that connects with someone else, that allows them to then process something that they've also been through. That to me is what I love. That for me is, that's the question. You want to, that's actually the best validation. It's not actually what people say, it's what I can witness someone feeling. To me, that is the best validation for me.

I don't have to wait for that validation. That's almost instant. It happens when I speak to someone, when I sing to someone. A person can't hide how they feel, you know? Even though we think we can, we actually cannot. It shows up in the small, minute movements in our body. It shows up in our faces. It shows up in the small, minute movements in our body. It shows up in our faces. It shows up in how we express.

It shows up in how open we are when we're speaking to a person, more than a person saying, oh my God, that was amazing, which is lovely. But actually, I'm not necessarily seeking a hundred thank yous and a hundred your amazings. I'm not looking for that. I'm actually looking for how deeply can I connect with people? How much can I make people feel? Does this mean that someone is going to go and figure out something in their relationships

with someone? Does this mean that they're going to finally have a conversation with that person that they haven't spoken to for years because they've been harboring a feeling that they haven't yet faced. If that is what comes of my music, my work, teaching, whatever it is, then that's the validation I want, right? But what that lyric speaks about is the other sort, that you're sort of waiting for people to say that you're amazing, you're waiting for people to give you all of the to say that you're amazing. You're waiting for people to send, like, give you, like, all of the outward input that you can take, but eventually it's, it's that old weird thing where you see

a hundred lovely messages and you see that one message that isn't great and everything comes tumbling down because it isn't based on anything. It, there's no foundation for it. Right. Yeah. But if you can connect with that one person, those 10 people, those 15 people in the audience, when their tears are falling and you can hear it in the, there's something really wonderful about when it's quiet and you hear that one person go, you go, okay, that person's connected.

They're feeling something. You make people feel, then that's the validation we want. Yeah. Might drop. Oh yeah. And I feel that. I feel that. And as I was listening to you, I was thinking, sometimes when I'm speaking to a large group or leading a meditation, for like maybe sometimes I've been fortunate enough to lead meditations for like five, 10,000, 20, 30,000 people, maybe even more in one time. And I almost in my mind, when I'm leading it, I'll go back to when there were just 10 people in the room and when I used to lead meditations for five people in the room.

Because that's also what we all want to feel. Yeah. Like we're all looking for intimacy. Yeah. Deeply. That's what we're want to feel. Yeah. Like we're all looking for intimacy. Yeah. Deeply. That's what we're seeking is intimacy. And we go to these big group gatherings to feel, and that's what music does for people, is it makes us feel intimate with the person standing next to us.

Right. Because we have a shared experience. And I feel intimate with the person singing it because I feel a shared experience and that's what we're all seeking is this intimacy in this mass. We're still looking for this moment where I just caught a glimpse of even someone in the audience. We both kind of know we both felt what we just heard. And it's really interesting to me that we've confused validation with love. We've confused validation with love. We've confused attention with affection.

We've confused praise with power and purity. Yeah. And over here, we're really seeking intimacy, but we'll trade it for adulation and adoration and everything else that doesn't quite hit the spot. Right, right, right. And as I was listening to you, I love that for you as your definition. And I think that's what's so important is having your definition

of what validation matters to you. Because otherwise you'll constantly be pulled and pushed. All over the place. By everything that comes and you'll run after it wherever it's delivered. Whereas you're really clear like, I do love the applause, of course. And so do I, I'm you'll run after it, wherever it's delivered. Whereas you're really clear, like, I do love the applause, of course. And so do I, I'm the same as you. It's wonderful, it's wonderful.

I love it, of course it is. But like when, yesterday when I was flying home and one of the air stewards came up to me and was just like, don't stop doing what you're doing. It really makes a difference. I was just like, I'm about to cry. It's the best thing in the world. It's so wonderful because you know

that you have affected a person. It isn't just, um, face value. Like you have, I use the word infiltrated their nervous system, right? You're a part of how they now move through their days. Something about what you said has affected the way they now behave towards other people and behave in their lives. And that is really, really special. Like that's actually the core of what we're supposed

to be doing as human beings, not even just in my field or your field, but as human beings, what we want to be able to do is give a person something that they can take away with them into their own lives. If we can do that for me, beyond anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true.

And I think like whether you're a musician, whether you're a creator, whether you're an author, whether you're an entrepreneur making a product, if you look at your comment section, your reviews, you'll see people pouring their heart out who you've impacted. But the mind just wants the next million followers or the next 10K in revenue or whatever it is that you're working towards and like you miss the fact that there's a human who took the time to be like, you changed something for me. Yeah.

You know, so I don't know. I've been thinking about, as you were speaking... Yeah, please. Something came up for me when you were talking about intimacy. There's a concert hall that I performed in, but it was in the round, which means that the stage is sort of in the center, but still in prostage, which means you have a front of the stage and then it comes back, but behind you there are people seated watching from behind. So they have your head and your back for most of it, and then there are people sitting in front in the round. And I remember, and I would always do this, whether we like it

or not, we want to be seen. So what I would try to do when I'm in those theaters is before we really launch into the whole concert, I would always sing a portion of the music to the people who would normally just get the back of my head. Because what that says is, I see you as well. That's a form of intimacy. To go, yes, I see you, but I also know that there are people who are behind me who are, who want to be a part of this as much as you. And they're only getting my, the back of my head and the back of my shoulders. And they're not getting the front of me, which is, you know, our heart is caged. This is the thing I think of. Our heart is in our rib cage and within all of that, but it's in the front. And they get the back.

So you kind of want to make sure that they get your heart to, they get to see the front of you where your heart is placed. Right? It's here, but this is where we, that's where we, in our, like, in imaginations, this is where it is. So you turn to them and you're open. So you say, hey, I see you and I can see you here and I know that you're getting the back of my head, but I'm not going to leave you out. I want you to be a part of this intimate experience that we're having together. And I feel like within this music, that's kind of what I want to do. Like we're in the round. And I think a lot of people have had the back of my head and a lot of people have had the

back of my shoulders and the back of me. And I really want for this album to be like me turning around and going, Hey, I see you and I want you to see my heart too as well. Cause I know that there's a large amount of people who've seen me and my heart, but there are some people who, who don't know that part of me and they see the pretty dresses and they see me say nice things and all those things, but I want them to, to get the front of me too. Yeah.

You did that in the album. Thank you. Like it comes across. Thank you. It's such an invitation into that intimate space for yourself, for them. And that's why I think like people are going to listen to this, whether they've just gone through a breakup or a divorce, they're going to listen to this. If they're just falling in love, they're going to listen to this. If they're just falling in love,

they're going to listen to this. That's what I want. Yeah, they're going to listen to this album. If they're on their own journey, they're going to listen to this album with their friends. Like I feel like it's one of those albums that you're going to experience, not just listen to, not just have on in the background.

And yeah, it's so special. A couple more things I wanted to ask you about. There was another lyric from Replay as well, and you were mentioning it just there. It was this, and it's so powerful. And I'm a big fan of like reading lyrics. Please, this album is that. Yeah, there's such a like, because it's such mastery as well. Like for even anyone who loves poetry and writing and it's just, but you go,

daddy trauma has emasculated all my common sense. So I'm looking through the lens of an impending abandonment. All the voices in my head, so I'm not worth the time you spent. So I search for an escape before you notice your mistake. Yeah. And I mean, I mean, it's just beautiful to even read off the page. Like it's such a, the part that struck out to me there was the, so I'm looking through the lens of an impending abandonment.

And I was like, it goes back to what you were just saying now that people feel that. People feel really abandoned by themselves too. It's also about feeling abandoned and then taking that into everything you go into. And so even now, sometimes I expect people to leave. So what the way I move, the way I work, I don't trust people quickly. I am expecting them to go away. It's sort of like, I, if I can set myself up to know that I'm going to be abandoned, then I can't be hurt when it happens.

Yes. Right. Yeah. And so what I've had to do over time is start to trust people and to not taught everything with a brush of abandonment. If a person has to leave, a person has to leave. That's okay. They're not abandoning, they're simply leaving.

And that isn't to say that the experience of feeling abandoned isn't real, but it is also to say that that experience of abandonment isn't always what happens. And for a really long time, I couldn't tell the difference. And so every time a friend left or I broke up with a person or a relationship didn't quite work, it felt like a massive moment of abandonment. It felt like the floor was taken out from underneath me. And it's taken a long time to get to a point where I can trust that that's not the case. And so what that would do is stop me from saying how I really felt in a situation because I didn't want them to go away.

Yeah, well. You know, like, if I'm not happy with something, then I wouldn't say, because I don't want them to have a reason to leave, you know, or if I didn't want something, then I wouldn't say I didn't, I don't want something because I was afraid that they would leave. Right. And unfortunately, that leads sometimes to really dangerous situations because you don't speak up. And I've had to learn to be okay with the idea that if someone leaves, they are meant to. And if they're meant to come back, they will. Right? But sometimes we're very afraid to chance it. We're very afraid to let a person go. We are afraid to let a person go. And we need to be okay with letting people go because they have their own journey as well. We don't know what path people are walking on when they walk into our lives. We might just be a

stepping stone in their path, just like stepping stones are in their life. And they might just be a stepping stone in their path, just like stepping stones are in their life. And they might just be a stepping stone in our lives as we keep moving forward. If we're not confident or comfortable enough to let that be a stepping stone to move on to the next one, we won't go anywhere. We're stuck. Would you say that's the hardest emotion you've ever had to face and deal with? Or has it been harder? I think that has been because it's shown up in many different ways for different people for me. And I think it's always, that's always been the root emotion that makes other emotions amplified.

Feeling abandoned makes hurt feel a lot bigger than it, than it should, or feeling abandoned makes loss feel bigger than that. So it's like silly things like if a friend, if I call a friend and I don't, this has happened before, a friend of mine and it was just their process, she would call or I would call, she would pick up, we would have the most amazing conversation, we would have the connection, we'd be right back where we were before and it would be lovely. And then I would call maybe a month later and she wouldn't pick up and I wouldn't see her for another month or two. And I would take it so personally for me, it would be like she's left

me again. But actually that was just her process. Sometimes she would go and sort of shield herself and grow herself back and put herself back together. And then she would appear again. And I had to learn that that is just the way she exists. And I had to be okay with her way of existing. And once I learned that that's her way of existing, it meant that I could welcome her with open arms and I wouldn't be so upset when she was gone.

That I knew that she was just putting herself back together again and I could just send a little message of, how are you? And I'm thinking of you and I'm gonna call you in a couple of weeks. And if you're around, I'm okay for a chat and not expect anything. So that when something did come back, it was joyous. It was really wonderful. When that feeling of abandonment was the main focus, it felt really bad when she went away. And it had been the same in different relationships, that when they had decided that they wanted to move on or when they, it just felt like such a wound. And that is not sustainable. You can't live like that.

You can't live believing that everyone is abandoning you because it makes for a really lonely existence. It means that you build up a wall of protection to stop yourself from really being connected to anyone. Yeah, even if you're surrounded by loads of people. Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. Hi Key. Shout out to my thick thighs. We'll save lives, clearly. Save lives. Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. because it's like playing a xylophone when you're cuddling, you know? Bone on bone hurts. Wait a second, Evie, that was the hottest thing you've ever said. Can we please ignore that? It's the realest.

That was not the hottest thing you've ever said. Trust me. For me, as the thickums one, yes, it was. Okay, okay, touche. Thank you very much. You know, queers love to date people who look exactly like them. You know, everybody's looking for that twindrome,

but I need somebody to balance me out, you know? I'll be there, like like weird massage chair in the back with all my knuckles and elbows, and they'll be like my memory foam bed. We balance. Honestly, the bigger the build, the better. I wanna feel petite. Please, I love a man with thighs.

I love a man with arms. A little belly. I've been super into the little like, beauty boys right now with a little belly. You put that little belly out. Hey! That's what you're supposed to have. High key!

Listen to High Key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler. Maren Morris is here. You came out of a marriage, you came out of quote-unquote country music, and you had a huge growth spurt from what I can tell. I realized I was expanding and growing at a really fast pace. And yes, you could throw motherhood and the postpartum thing, learning about myself. There were a lot of identity crises going on, but I realized I can't look back and slow down for people. I want to set my own pace,

and I will sacrifice my comfort to move at the pace that I have worked really hard to move at. Literally everything that could change in your life happened in five years for me, and it was a slow burn. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, host of the podcast,

Are You a Charlotte? What we have all been waiting for. Sarah Jessica Parker is here, and she is sharing stories from the very beginning, like the time she forgot we filmed the pilot episode. I remember some things about shooting the pilot. Right. I have some memories I can fill you in.

And that you're going to fill me in. Yes. But then you forgot about it in the very long time they took to pick us up. And she reveals what she thought when she read the script for Sex and the City the very first time. He said he wrote this like I was in his head in some way, which I found really interesting. And does she think Carrie is too good for Mr. Big?

She had inexplicable feelings. It is the human being that can't explain to her friends why somebody that might be beneath her is dictating the hunt. You can't miss this. Listen to Are You a Charlotte? on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. And back to our episode. You know, you've been dedicated to your art for so many years. And I feel like Wicked was like this global phenomenon.

Yeah. Right. It's, and you've been recognized and won awards and done phenomenal work. And I feel like Wicked was like this global phenomenon. Yeah. Right? And you've been recognized and won awards and done phenomenal work. But Wicked was just... Yeah. At least from the outside. Yeah, that's right. It felt different.

Like, how did that change your feeling of fitting in and belonging? Because you're part of something bigger. Yeah. Like, how does that kind of... How do you make sense of that? What's really interesting is that I think I've really been able to lean into who I am. And what I noticed is that there are so many people in the world who feel really different. And because I got to do this piece that put me in front of many people,

it meant that there are other people who felt like they were invisible, who finally felt visible again. And that has been something that's really wonderful to experience, to bump into people who didn't feel like they fit. Women specifically, who have spoken to me about either women who have suffered cancer and have been through chemotherapy and lost their hair and said, and I'm not ill, my hair is a choice. I shaved it first because of the film, and then I loved what it did to me. It meant that I really could just see my face and me.

And we know that there's always a massive conversation around hair and what it does and how long someone's hair is or how smooth or straight or whatever that is or how curly, whatever. And I had made a choice to not have it at all. And the amount of women who have suffered alopecia, suffered, have been through cancer and survived, but now have to wear wigs or don't wear wigs or have been sort of shy about going without, have reached out and been like, I saw you rocking no hair. And now I feel really confident about walking around with no hair and being bald. And I feel really strong about

it. And that's been a huge eye opener that there are so many people who feel like they don't belong. But seeing one person who's very different from the norm and, you know, rocks what they rock and are who they are, sort of put out a little bit of permission to also be who you are. Yeah. And I think that for me was a real crux of this. There are so many people trying to just discover themselves and they just need to see it on someone else to also decide, or I can just be. That's been wonderful. The amount of eyes on you is really new. For me, I'm still adjusting to it. And while I'm really grateful for the platform that has been given to me because of it, it's still a new thing.

It's new to be heard all the time. It's new to be seen all the time. It's new to see, you know, walk through an airport, think that you're anonymous and not be anonymous at all. You know what I mean? Even when you have no makeup on and it's like who you are. And that's a norm for me to walk through an airport, no makeup, no nothing, just sort of hat on, just like ready to go,

but not be recognized. But when you are recognized, it's a new, that's very new for me. It's also really wonderful because people are so excited by it and so excited by these characters and so excited by the people who play the characters. That's also new. Before I could play a character and they would recognize the character, but not necessarily recognize me from the character.

Now people know me and the character, which is a new thing also, that they are able to separate the person, Alphaba, who I played, and me, Cynthia. That's also a new thing. Yeah. Which is lovely because it means that I guess I've made an impression as me as well as an impression as the character, which is really lovely.

It's nice to be able to... It's nice that people have welcomed me into their homes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, I think Radhi sent you that little clip of my niece calls me Elphaba and she thinks she's Glinda and she just made this up. Oh my God!

And so literally every voice note to me is she calls me Elphaba. This is so sweet. And now I'm Elphaba to her. And so when Radhi told her that we know the real Elphaba, she just couldn't believe it. And you know, but it's one of those things of like just, it meant so much. Like I feel like you and Ariana like meant so much more than a movie to people. It felt that yes, people came to see the movie and people loved what the movie said.

But I spoke to someone who said that they, a couple of parents actually, who said that this movie has given them the opportunity to have conversations with their kids. And I'm talking about like seven year olds, six year olds, to talk about playground politics and being different and being excluded and what that feels like and the ownership over oneself and deciding to be who you are against all odds and having those conversations between adult and kid and how difficult that can be when there's nothing to bring that conversation up. But because of this movie, it's meant that people can have those conversations, you know? And then people our age who are leaning more into their friendships, leaning more into their relationships that they have that can be difficult, but they can

pour more energy into them. And then leaning more into discovering who they are as people. And even though it can be scary to be who you are meant to be, to show up as yourself, it's equally as rewarding. And those conversations that this has sort of brought to life is blown my mind. Um, and it means something different to every single person. You think it's possible, but when you see it, it's beyond. It's just beyond. Yeah.

And I think the point you were making about how people accepted Elphaba, but accepted you. Yeah. I think that is because of how you showed up through all of the, both you and Ariana, through all the press. Yeah. It's almost like you didn't both show up as movie stars. You showed up as friends.

And people. You stood up as friends. And people. You stood up as people and you felt that. Yeah. And I think that's what everyone felt where it was like, oh, they didn't show up as two people who were promoting a movie. Yeah. They showed up as themselves. Yeah.

Of course, we all love the movie and one of what's the movie and all the rest of it. But it was very different to what people have been exposed to before. Yeah. That you don't usually see. I don't even think we did that on purpose. I think that's just who we are. You know, I think, I don't know that I said to myself, well, I'm going to come to these Q and A's and, and I'm going to just talk about this and that.

I think I just, there's something wonderful that exhaustion does to you. Where the veil sort of falls away. And we had been, we were already exhausted before we began the press tour because we'd worked so long. We'd been working so long on it and we had been, we were already exhausted before we began the press tour because we'd worked so long. We'd been working so long on it and we'd worked really hard. We didn't really have much of a time away from the film before we began, you know, sharing it with people. We finished the film in February

and we're on the road basically from June. So that's not a long time. And between that time, we also were working on other things. So we hadn't actually stopped So by the time we we were in front of everybody there was no energy to put up Pretenses we just were who we were and there's something wonderful about Having only the energy to Existing in yourself in front of people and once you begin that way

in yourself in front of people. And then once you begin that way, it doesn't go in the other direction, it just amplifies. And so we become, you just watched us become more and more and more of ourselves. And all the tears that you saw were very, very real because the experience was still very raw. We only just had left it in February. That was the last time I took off the green.

I hadn't completely put her down yet. I was still sort of decompressing and letting her go and putting myself back together in front of people. That's what was happening. And then we were having to talk about our characters and talk about the experience and it was only a month or two away. And that's sort of how it was. And then because we're having these constant conversations, we're also relearning and remembering and figuring things out, learning new things. There are things that I didn't know that she was experiencing that I learned on the spot and there are things that I was experiencing that she was learning on

the spot and the things that our director was experiencing that we had just realized. So we were learning new things in real time in front of everybody, but we weren't pretending that it was old hat to us. We were realizing, oh my God, I didn't know that. That's a new thing to learn. I think hopefully we'll make people do that more when you're in this business. I was speaking to someone about the tendency is to to pop the wall and try to protect yourself and. Actually the most wonderful thing you can give anyone who's watching is is a little bit of yourself and.

The revelation that it is a human experience. the revelation that it is a human experience. All of the things that looks fancy when you're running around and you're in the pretty dresses, but when you're on a set, it's as human and as real as you can possibly make it. You're up early, you're exhausted every day, the makeup is coming on and off and you're meeting loads of different people who you've only met for the first time on a day one and then you've got to perform that next day. It's a very vulnerable, like very open experience and you have to sort of learn to get used to that quite quickly. And then once you are used to that, you then make family with people and you get to know everyone's tells and you get to know everyone's sort of like the way people tickle. She's really tired today. I'm going to bring her a cookie.

She likes chocolate chip cookies and I know that will make her happy. He actually is vegan so he'll only have the double chocolate, which is, you know, and he loves raisin and oat and that's his favorite thing. But don't put butter in it because he actually really doesn't like that. You know, you start to learn what people like. She likes to eat at 12, but he likes to eat at two. He's tired judging by, you know, how fast he's working, but actually she's had a great morning because she's really quick or she's quite shy.

So go to her, speak to her quietly. or you learn people and then you have to let them go. You actually have to say goodbye. So that's a really human experience once you come off a set. And I think when you promote something, when you're on the road and you're talking about that experience, you do yourself and everyone else a service by making people understand just how human the experience is. So that people understand that it isn't just moving pictures and we aren't just people you sort of cut and splice together. On that day, this person might have been having a terrible day, but yet they did this.

And that day she was in complete pain in this harness that she'd been in for 12 hours, but she was still able to sing that. And on this day, she, you know, even though she has an allergy to whatever, she still moved through it because that was happening, you know, everyone is trying to create something, create art and we're not doing it from the comfort of our homes and our sofas, we're really on the ground in the dirt, moving through it. And then we come together to share it.

That really is what being on the road is about, sharing the experience. And I think we kind of knew that almost automatically. And I think it's something that I will take with me for the rest of my life, not just for this next movie, but for everything I do to make it a really human experience is a gift. I remember I've traveled so much with my clients and been on set and been in trailers from coaching someone or working with someone.

And I couldn't believe how not glamorous film sets are. They're just not at all. And it's so interesting because no one ever sees that. You only see the finished product and then you see the red carpet. And so you assume actors have a really glamorous life. And actually for four months or for projects like yours, for years, you're sitting in a tiny little trailer,

putting on your clothes, taking them off, looking at lines, whatever makeup, whatever it is, you go on set, you wait for three hours, you don't know when you're going back out, it's cold, it's so interesting how what you see and what you think are two totally different things. Yeah. And it dehumanizes people. Yeah. And so there's such a need for that. And I don't think I could ever be friends with anyone

who likes oatmeal raisin cookies. But there's... I'm just pointing out. If they're made in the right way and they're crunchy on the outside but sort of like soft and buttery on the inside, it'll be good. You can't convince me, Sinti.

I think there's a place for them in the world. I do think that. I think so. There's that... I can't convince me, Cynthia. I think there's a place for them in the world. I do think that, I think so. There's that, there's that, I can't remember who said it, but someone was like, raising cookies are the reason I have trust issues. Because it's like, you're hoping they're chocolate. Yeah, exactly. I will make like, because I do like to bake occasionally. And when I was, when I was on the set, I would make big tins,

like two, three tins full of like cookies for people. So we do like a set of chocolate chip, a set of like double chocolate, some chocolate and salt. You're speaking my language right now. Some of like salted caramel. And then for this one person, my wonderful first AD, Jack, who was like, I just want oatmeal raisin. That's what I want.

And that's my favorite. And I would make them from scratch. And I would like with absolute love and I sometimes would, I would put maybe like raspberries in it. Or sometimes I would do white chocolate in it. And he would, and if that's what someone loves, that's what someone loves. He would know very clearly that that is what that was that I would make just a couple extra just in case anyone else felt like they wanted to try. And I would make it very clear. This is not chocolate. There are raisins, just so you trust me.

But there are chocolate chips over there. Yeah? If you need them. That's me, I'm over there. I love it. That's amazing that you're doing that every day. Yeah, I would do it every Monday for people. Yeah, that's beautiful.

That's so beautiful. Cynthia, it's been such an honour to talk to you. And I would do it every Monday for people. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. That's so beautiful. Cynthia, it's been such an honor to talk to you and I could literally talk to you for hours. I know, we could go through it. Yeah, I was like, I just got from your team, I just got a little time nod, so I want to be mindful of that. But honestly, you are... I just, I love meeting people whose work is infused with such deep inner work.

Like it really brings my heart joy to see that when people are putting art out into the world, it's coming from so much revelation and reflection and inner work. Because I think sometimes we all appreciate art, but for so long in the world, you appreciated art, but never knew the artist. Right. Until they died, maybe. Correct, yeah. And you didn't really understand them because they weren't famous or there wasn't social media or podcasting didn't exist.

It's like you saw a piece of art and you thought it was beautiful, but you didn't really know that artist. Yeah. And I just really appreciate you just being so open and vulnerable. Thank you. As the artist, as the human, because it gives us such an invitation to understand ourselves better or understand you better and I can't wait for people to listen to the album. I agree with you. I'm really proud of it.

Yeah, yeah, you should be. It really, I meant every word. Thank you. It's, when you hear new music and you're making sense of it just on your own and it feels like that, I can't wait for people to hear it. And as always friend, I'm rooting for you forever in your corner. And so grateful for you. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me again. If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Kendall Jenner on setting boundaries to increase happiness and healing your inner child. You could be reading something that someone is saying about you and being like, that is so unfair because that's not who I am. And that really gets to me sometimes. But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like, but I know who I am.

Why does anything else matter? Hey y'all, it's your girl Tia Madison coming to you live and in color from the Outlaws Podcast. We're talking to Chaperone and Sasha Colby. We talk about the lovers, the haters, and the creators. In the Midwest, they told you, would you just be humble? Mine was, I think, wrapped up in like Christian Goat. Oh, yeah.

We definitely had like a Jehovah's Witness guilt there. Yeah. Wait, were you Jehovah's Witness? Yeah. My family still does. Hey. Or no, hi. Hi.

Ha ha ha. Listen to Outlaws with T.S. Madison on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, honey. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommates' toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist

and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What happens when we come face to face with death? My truck was blown up by a 20 pound anti-tank mine. My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel. When we step beyond the edge of what we know... I clinically died.

The heart stopped beating. Which I was dead for 11.5 minutes. In return... It's a miracle I was brought back. Alive Again, a podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive Again on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is an iHeart Podcast.