On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Daniel Pink ON: How to Master Time Management & Turn Procrastination into Productivity

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

You love On Purpose because it inspires your life. Have you tried Jay’s Genius workshops and meditations to access even deeper well-being? Learn more at https://shetty.cc/OnPurposeGenius Dan created a phrase he both loves and hates: performative complexity. His definition of this term is the performance of making our lives seem more complicated for no other reason other than, well, to seem complicated. On this episode of On Purpose with Jay Shetty, Jay Shetty speaks with author and lawyer Daniel Pink about creating a healthy relationship with time, procrastinating productively, and simplifying your life. Want to make time your friend, instead of your enemy? Check out Dan’s most recent book WHEN: THE SCIENTIFIC SECRETS OF PERFECT TIMING. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Check out the R-Spot on the iHeart video app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. The best lives in some ways are on a dorn lives, the lives that are not adorned by the trappings of wealth, or posturing, or status seeking, but are the simplicity of do you have people who love you and do you have people you love? Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now, today I am super excited because I have been reading these authors' books since my

teenagers and I found them fascinating. They totally inspired me when it came to behavioral science, understanding the mind, how we think, how we make decisions, how we get driven and motivated, and I've been a fan ever since. So this is a true fan moment for me. I guess today is none other than Daniel Pink. He's the author of six books about business and human behavior. His books include the long-time running New York Times

Barcelona when, which will be dissecting today, a whole new mind, as well as the Time Running New York Times Best Seller When, which will be dissecting today, a whole new mind, as well as The Number One New York Times Best Seller's Drive, which was actually the first book that I read from in, and to sell is Human. Dan's books have won multiple awards and have been translated into 40 languages and have sold more than three million copies. Now, Dan has been a contributing editor at Fast Company and wired, as well as a business columnist for the Sunday Telegraph. His articles and essays have also appeared

in the New York Times Harvard Business Review and other publications. And in 2019, London-based thinkers 50 named him the sixth most influential management thinker in the world. And he lives in Washington, DC with his family. And today we're going to talk about his latest book when called the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, which I know you're going to love.

So Dan, thank you for doing this. James, pleasure to be with you. Yeah, you literally, you were like one of the first people I ever thought of interviewing before I even had a podcast and I remember saying to, I believe, our mutual friend Dan Shabal, who I believe you know well as well Sure, of course, I remember saying to him. I was like I would love to interview Dan and he was like yeah I can introduce you to like an introduce to him and then I didn't have a podcast there so I didn't interview so we waited Worth it absolutely worth the wait. Yeah, well, thank you so much for doing this

I've genuinely enjoyed your book what you've actually understand about human incentives, drive, and now timing, which I think is the most fascinating. I recommended this book last year, I was one of my top 10 books, and I'm pushing it out as much as I can, so I'm excited to dive into it. But I want to actually start off with something that I saw on your Twitter profile. I think it was yesterday or a couple of days ago

where you actually recommended Trevor Noah's audiobook crime for a book to study for high school students and I was understanding why particularly that book. Yeah, no, it's interesting. I, there's a large presence on Twitter of an ever social media of educators and those are educators among the few people who I actually enjoy interacting with on Twitter of an ever social media of educators. And those are educators among the few people who I actually enjoy interacting with on Twitter. And so there was a fellow who I think was a high school principal who was looking for recommendations

for books for high school students to read. And I thought that Trevor Noah's book, including the audio edition, was just a great choice for high school students. I mean, I'm a father of high school student. My son has read that book. It's just a gripping story of this kid. And I think that what he is telling us

gives us all kinds of insight into our world today. He Trevor was the son of a black mom and a white dad, German dad, growing up, he was born in a parttheid era South Africa. And so simply for Americans, especially white Americans, hearing about that is just, I mean, even though you know it, it's just kind of mind-boggling.

And then what happens after post apartheid, how he decides what he wants to do, what his relationships are with his mother and father. But I actually listen to the audio edition of his book. And it is, Jay, I think the best audio book I've ever listened to. And the reason for that is that Trevor Noah speaks multiple languages.

And so he goes into some of these languages, but also his ability to do characters and accents is just extraordinary. It's a virtuosic performance and just a gripping read. I can't imagine a 17 year old not being 16 year old, not being mesmerized by that as I was, and I'm way older than 17. I love that. No, it's a great recommendation. I think that's awesome. And it's always nice to hear authors and very successful authors.

We're recommending other authors and audio books. So I think that's brilliant. Now, you've made it really, really clear. That's great. Tell us about, I want to start, you know, about with your fascination with human behavior and the mind and the way we think and why we do certain things.

Like where did that come from for you? Because like I said, you were the first person or one of the first people to introduce me into that whole school of thought. And I just think like when you're young and you're at college or you're at school, you don't really get exposed to these kind of topics. So where was it for you and how did that stuff for you?

I guess I'm not totally sure. I think part of it comes from being a pretty quiet kid growing up. I wouldn't say shy, but just kind of a quiet kid. More of an observer, a reader, it's a kid who went to the library all the time. And so it's always feeling like I wasn't quite in the center of things, but was kind of on the periphery

observing. And who was I observing? I was observing these crazy people. And so that I think was, I think that was part of it. I also was fortunate enough when I was in college to study a lot of economics, a lot of psychology. And but I ended up, I actually majored in in linguistics, which is a, which is another social science. I was always keenly interested in it. I think if I had my, I can totally see in retrospect that I would have become a professor rather than doing the noble hackery that I'm doing today. No, that's awesome.

It's interesting always how people got to where they got to and I'm fascinated that you haven't fully dissected your journey and like broken it up in a little pieces. And I quite like that. I think it's very humble of you actually. Well, I also think it's, thank you for that. I'm not sure that it's humble as it is accurate. I think a lot of times these,

they're different vantage points in looking at these journeys. And I like the metaphor of a journey. They're different vantage points in looking at these journeys. And I like the metaphor of a journey. There are different vantage points in looking at these journeys. So if you're in it and you're navigating your way, at least for me, there was much, much less intention than one would think. And much greater kind of have-assury luck, that kind of thing. I think that in some cases, just because it makes us more comfortable, existentially,

we look back on these things and say, oh, there was a clear narrative to that journey. And there might be. I think that retrospective look is actually valid, too. Yeah, absolutely. And I know that you spend a lot of time in Japan, right? Or you spend some time in Japan. Yeah, I spend some time in Japan, sure. Yeah.

What's the culture like, or what kind of influences have you taken from that culture in your life? Yeah, it's a really, really interesting question. Probably more profound than I realize. I think that one of them is the virtue of simplicity. In Japanese design and certain forms of just Japanese culture, there is a premium on that simplicity. And I think in many cases, in many realms of particularly American and particularly kind of particularly American and particularly kind of a lead well-educated American circles. There is this kind of performative complexity.

I mean, even that phrase performative complexity is an example of complexity. Well, no, it's total BS because it's an example of performative complexity. Basically, what it is is that people want to feel smart. And the way that they want to feel smart is by making things really complicated. And to me, one of the things I absorb from spending time there is actually the keenest form of intelligence is to make things as simple as you possibly simple and clear and elegant as you possibly can, whether you are writing a book, whether you're making a film, whether you're building a house, whether you're raising a family, anything like that, that there's

a virtue in that kind of simplicity and clarity. So I think that's probably the thing that sunk in the most for me. That's so profound. I'm so glad you shared that, actually. I didn't know what odds you were going to give. And I did the bid. Did the bid I? And I love that because I've always thought that for a while.

I was, all my work is inspired by two statements. One statement is statement often contributed to my Luther King where he said that if you want a new idea read an old book. And so I have this fascination with timeless wisdom and kind of true in the past. And then the second one is from Einstein and when he said that if you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough. And so I've always been fascinated with simplification and your work does that very, very effectively apart from performative complexity, which I believe. I don't know if you just made that up right now, but it's a great show.

I did. I did. I did. You can have it because I don't want to ever say it again. And sometimes I feel like I feel as pressure as a thinker or a shareer or whatever you want to call us. You know, I have this pressure like, oh well maybe I'm making these two easy on this fan. And actually hearing you say that is so like refreshing for me. But some like, no, I want people to be able to practice it and just get it in one. So that's a beautiful part of culture. And what part of the culture did you feel that was it architecture, was it language, was it, you know, where was that in the culture?

I didn't have any master in the language. That was hard for me too. That was hard for me, although I think there is something, you know, even in the pictorial aspect of the language, where a single character, a single image represents something that's actually, that can actually something be fairly complex. So if you take out a notion that is complex like luck, there'll be a character for luck. I know it's true obviously in Chinese as well. I just thought that when the, if you look at even Japanese aesthetics,

it's even Japanese cuisine, it's unadorned. You know, like really good Japanese cuisine is unadorned. It is in French where there's like later than link sauces and all kinds of stuff on it. It isn't heavily garnished and displayed in this grandiose way. It is pure, it is simple, it is unadorned. The essence speaks for itself.

And there's a lot to be said for that. Even if you look at, like even Japanese cuisine where you go into a place and all they serve is ramen. Okay, so not trying to do everything, but you're gonna get the best bowl of ramen you've ever had because that's all they serve. And so I think that that has been, that way of thinking has probably had a bigger effect on me than I then I realize. In fact, in some ways, Jay, your question is making me understand

that that had a that had a bigger effect. Because I do think that their that simplicity is clarity and simplicity to me are such that those are things that I as a creator and as a consumer, are prized very, very deeply. Yeah, I mean, you're a phenomenal public speaker as well. And if anyone's never seen Dan on stage, you've just gone YouTube and just watching on stage, whether it's Ted or other events. But have you ever reset simplicity or clarity out of interest?

Like are they themes that you see yourself writing about or do you ever have you ever been down a rabbit hole on one of those and discovered anything fascinating about simplicity or clarity? But I think you're spot on that. Really, those are the two things we're always seeking out, right, whether you're decision making or whether it's in how we feel about ourselves

or a relationship we have in our lives. I mean, treat because I definitely studied those for my meditation, mindful and mindful. Right, right. But I mean, treat to hear about if you found anything scientifically that fascinates you. Yeah, that's another really interesting question. I don't think I've ever intentionally gone after that, but there is there is a decent amount of there's a decent amount of of research showing aspects of this. So for instance, so so for I give you I give you something profound and something mundane. So on the mundane is it's a concept in linguistics, which is known as processing fluency. Processing fluency. And all processing fluency means is that the

message, the words, the communication you're making goes down easily. So it goes down easily. Now, that's a virtue in and of itself. But one of the things that we know from linguistics and some from some social psychology is that processing fluency enhances believability, not only understanding but believability. There's a dark side of this, of course. And so what you see is that things that enhance processing fluency are effective in getting your message across. An example

would be repetition. Okay, we know that repetition is effective. Repetition increases people's understanding. It increases their believability. Now there's a downside. There's a downside to that. Even things like rhyming, there's some brilliant research showing that messages that rhyme are not only considered more understandable, but actually more believable. A little bit of a list and things like that. So we do know something from science that clarity and simplicity are obviously extraordinarily effective.

That's the mundane. Rhymes increase processing influence, okay? I think the more profound thing is that when you look at say things like, your listeners, some of your listeners are probably familiar with the famous grant study out of Harvard, where they followed a group of men. It was, at the time, it was all men. I think it was all white men in, graduated from Harvard in the 1940s, something like that. And they followed, I might be a little bit off in the years.

And they followed them through the course of their lives, checking, you know, massive longitudinal study. They also did it with, they later did a group of working class men, all men from Boston. And one of the things that you see from the grant study is that, you know, like, what makes somebody satisfied? What makes somebody happy with their life? And it turned out that it's completely unadorned. It's basically, do you have somebody you love and do you have people who love you? Period full stop, that's it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, and that, you know, so, so the adornment that we were talking about in Japanese cuisine, that the lack of adornment in Japanese cuisine is that our, the best lives in some ways are unadorned lives, that lives that are not adorned by the trappings of wealth or performative complexity or posturing or status seeking, but are the simplicity of

do you have people who love you and do you have people you love? Yeah, that is truly one of the hardest things to understand right now as well because it's very hard on you. That is truly one of the hardest things to understand right now as well because, you know, I was literally speaking to another podcast as interviewing Peter the Amanda's recently and, you know, he's obsessed with the future and we're talking about how, you know, he thinks the world's improving and the future's changing and like, we could live on another planet and we could, you know, do all this kind of stuff. And it's, you know, at the same time, I remember a couple of years ago,

I got to visit one of the blue zones in Sardinia. I don't know if you've come across blue zones as to I'm sure you are. No, I know, I know. I've actually ordered, I've actually, there's a wine from that, from Sardinia, I'll wrap it up. Oh, no.

The grape, I'm spacing out on what the, what the, what the, what the varietal is, but there's a, I've actually gone out and looked and ordered wine from Sardinia because for that very reason. Oh, that's incredible. Okay, what a small world. So I don't drink so I have no idea what that wine is or those help you out, but yeah, so when I went there and I was, you know, I lived with some of the people in the town in the village, you know, I was looking at their lifestyles and I also interviewed Dan Dutner who talks about the blues zone. And, and you know, it's, you look at that simplicity and you look at that stability

of growing up in a village, farming the land, natural exercise, not needing to do any hip workouts or any weights exercises. It is really, really special to see that. And I like trying to entertain the paradox of what parts of our lives are better, simpler and what parts of our lives are better with some. And maybe complexity is the wrong word. Complexity is not even the opposite of simplicity. Maybe there's another point. That's a great point. Yeah, maybe there's another element to, like not the opposite of simplicity, but a complementary paradoxical version of simplicity that because I find in

in and of myself and I'd love to hear what you think like I what I get fascinated about excited about is the the correlation between simplicity and then strategy right like or like simplicity and then like ambition or drive or focus. And I find like often today people, you know, people make connect simplicity with laziness or lack of focus or, you know, that, but we ought to speak even a much more deeper, essential level of clarity.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. It's interesting. There is a, it's an interesting, it's in some ways a linguistic question, no joke, about like what's the right word to describe what you and I are talking about? Because I feel like you and I are talking about something, well, at least what I think is important

and quite interesting, but our vocabulary, that at least in English might be impoverished and doesn't have the right term for that. I think you used a really important word there essential. I think it's partly about what's essential. It's partly about what is fundamental. And I do think that this idea that we know that simplicity and ambition can be easily twin.

No question about it. I mean, you mentioned that one of your guiding quotations was from Einstein. He was talking about simplicity. And he ended up, I mean, among his breakters were something that is so profoundly complex that most of us don't understand it beyond the equation we memorized in seventh grade.

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Or can we create new senses for humans? Or what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagleman, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Romani and I am back with season two of my podcast Navigating Narcissism. Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved by the Tinder swindler. The worst part is that he can only be guilty

for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help. As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify the narcissists in your life. Each week you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Talking of essentials, I do want to talk about because I think this book is so essentially driven. So for everyone who hasn't read it and I have recommended it before, we have this book

when that I want to talk about. I think time is one of those things, you know, how we use time, spend time, create time, what we make time for, like time is one of those things that of course is, and the way we use it, an essential, essential, essential part of all of our lives. And I think when we're talking about simplicity or clarity, I think one of the biggest things we lack simplicity and clarity on is time. And for me, I've definitely noticed how over life, especially when your book came out, I've tried to remove people from having to live their life based on a timeline or an expectation. And I realized that because my life went in a completely different direction,

whereby I became a monk at 22 and didn't have my first job until 26. And today lead one of the most meaningful fulfilling lives in the world thanks to all my experiences. And so it's just, it's fascinating. There were times in my life where I felt like I was behind people that I should be in line with. There were times in my life where I felt I was ahead of people.

There are times when I felt like I was trying to figure it out. And I think a lot of people usually feel like they're behind a head or equal to. And that's kind of how we make sense of stuff. And that's when this book came out, which I know was like maybe a year ago, a year and a half ago, maybe the couple years going to, it's to me that was, I was fascinated that you were able to pinpoint, yeah and go so deeply into time which I always thought was so much more fluid.

And so I guess the first question I want to ask you and please take this wherever you like, like don't feel constricted at all because I like what we're kind of co-creating right now. It's just, you know, why, what fascinates you about time the most that you were so deeply drawn to actually write a whole book about timing? Yeah, so that is actually, I'm going to put the answer to that in more of the mundane category. The reason for the impetus for it was just frustration

more than anything else. It wasn't any kind of deep conceptual fascination. So here we are, I'm talking to you from, this is my office here in Washington, D.C. It's the refurbished one car garage behind my house. I live there, like right there. And so, you know, I would come to my office and do stuff, do work. And at a certain point, I realized I would have a, I have a to-do list, and maybe I would have appointments on the calendar,

but I wasn't intentional at all about what I was doing stuff. I like like like I would write when I felt like writing. I would make phone calls when I felt like making phone calls. I would do interviews when I felt like doing interview. You know, and I wasn't intentional about it. And that and I said that's that's that's crazy. Like I'm actually a fairly kind of ration. I like to think I am at least fairly rational, evident space guy. And I'm making these decisions about when to do things. I'm not a fairly kind of ration. I like to think I am at least, fairly rational, evident space guy.

And I'm making these decisions about when to do things. I'm not even making decisions. I'm just kind of stumbling my way into it. And so I said, well, there's gotta be some guidance out there on when we should do things. And I found to my surprise that there wasn't. And that got me really curious. I said, well, I wonder if there's anybody's ever researched this.

So I started looking around for research. And in turn, there was a huge amount of research on this question, but it was splattered all over the place. It was in literally 2000 different domains. So it wasn't like you say, oh, there's sociologists who study timing. Well, there might be, there are, but there are also biologists who do that. There are economists who studied that. There are microbiologists who have done study epidemiologists.

There's a whole field called chronobiology. And so what you had was you had literally two dozen different fields asking very similar in some case, identical questions. And what I said is like, maybe you know, it was painful. But if I go wide enough and deepened up into this research, I can begin to piece together the evidence-based ways to make better, smarter decisions about when to do things. When to do things in a given day, but also to your other point, Jay, when we think about our lives, our lives are episodic. Episodes have beginnings, the episodes have middles and episodes have ends.

This is the whole idea of the journey metaphor you introduced earlier. As like, journeys have beginnings, they have middles, and they have ends. And it turns out that there is some fascinating research on how our cognitive abilities change over the course of the day, and then more episodically, how beginnings affect us, how midpoint affect us, how endings affect us. There's research on how groups coordinate in time. There's research on how the way we think about time affects our behavior. There's research, again, all roads lead back to linguistics,

there's research based on some interesting research showing that the way that languages configure their verb tenses, it can predict people's savings behavior as crazy as that sounds. It ends up being something that is going back to another one of your words. It ends up being essential. It ends up being fundamental because we are temporal creatures that is we have, we talk about colloquially about biological clocks, about a biological clock.

But essentially what we have, we know from biology, is that, especially chronobiology, is that we essentially have clocks in every cell in our body. We are walking time pieces. And again, depending on your notion of time philosophically, we are in some ways moving through time. At the very least, our conversation began in the past. It's going to end in the future. The people who are going to listen to their courted version of this are listening to something that happened in the past, it's going to end in the future.

The people who are going to listen to their courted version of this are listening to something that happened in the past. But those people haven't done anything yet because that's in the future. And so we're sort of swimming in this essential element of our lives. And so what I was just trying to do is just make it understandable.

I'd say my assumption is that the most common relationship, and I believe everyone has a relationship with money, we have a relationship with time, we have a relationship with anything, knowledge, wisdom, et cetera. And so our relationship with time for most people is, I always feel like I don't have enough. Right, that is a very clear relationship that we all relationship with time for most people is, I always feel like I don't have enough. That is a very clear relationship that we all have with time

where it's like, I don't have enough time. I can't make enough time. I can't find time. Like we say all these words, which are all about making, finding, creating, having. What does that do? What is that mindset toward time? How does that actually affect our behavior?

Our relationship with time, we can think of it as an ally, we can think of it as an enemy in some ways. That's oversimplifying in that case. But I think what we're trying to, and one way to make time your ally rather than your enemy is to recognize the effect often invisible that it has on your life. So I'll give you an example.

Let's just take the unit of a day. What we know very clearly from a whole array of research is that our brain power does not remain constant over the course of a day. Our brain power changes over the course of a day. So doing something at 9am is not the same as doing something at 3pm, period, full stop. Now there's some complexity underneath that, but the main idea is that our brain power doesn't remain constant over the course of a day. The best time to do something depends on what it is you're actually doing. So once you understand those kinds of hidden invisible rules, you can begin to make time your ally rather than your enemy and end up mitigating some of those feelings that you never that one never has enough time.

In many cases, people who don't feel like they have enough time, sometimes not always, sometimes it's not a it's not a sufficiency of time issue. It's a sufficiency of priority issue. What they actually don't have any clarity about their purposes or priorities. And so, the other thing that we know is that when time becomes extremely salient in our lives, we underperform. And I'll give you in certain circumstances, or we're unhappy in certain circumstances. So, a great example of that is, in professional services, but particularly in the practice of law, is the billable hour. What we know, so if you are a lawyer practicing in a law firm, not working for the government or doing that or non-profit or something, you bill yourself out by the hour.

And so what you do is that you have a way to, well, I'm doing analog here, but you have on your computer or scribbled that, an account of what you're doing literally, in some cases, in six-minute increments. And what we know from research there is that that makes people, that is incredibly thwarting to people's sense of autonomy. And so, so there are all kinds of things in our relationship with time that if we reconfigure it, we can feel a little bit better, do a little bit more and better. Is productivity even the goal of time? Because I feel like today, one of the biggest challenges

that I get asked at least, and maybe your children experience this, or maybe what I see outside in the world of social media is a lot of people today spend a lot of time overthinking and procrastinating, and that's seen as a negative thing. And people are often scared of overthinking, scared of procrastinating, or they judge themselves, and then they start getting into this kind of like, you know, vicious circle and cycle of feeling like,

oh, like I'm wasting a lot of time here. Tell me about what you found or even your thoughts on productivity as a goal of time versus the effective use, if possible, of procrastination in order. Thank you. Procrastination and productivity. Okay. Let's talk about what productivity is.

I'm going to be literal of this year. Productivity is the amount of units you produce over a given amount of time. It is inherently time-based because time is in the denominator of productivity. Again, I'm not sure that productivity is necessarily the best measure. I say that as a writer. Okay, so I could be like like I could be a product like Suppose I wrote more words per hour Today versus yesterday. I would literally be more productive But am I am I a better writer? I don't know. It's probably doesn't matter like what are the words? right and so and so in some ways productivity is

The notion of productivity and that very literal sense is an artifact of our being an economy where we were producing identical mass produced goods. And so efficiency was the highest value because everything was the same. And so what you wanted to do was, in a given denominator, make the numerator larger. Okay? That's how you increase, that's a way to increase productivity. wanted to do was, in a given denominator, make the numerator larger. That's how you increase, that's a way to increase productivity, or keep the numerator the same and shrink the amount of time in the denominator. So, that's what productivity is.

I think a way to, a looser way to measure things is quality and quality contribution impact, those sorts of things. And certainly for certain kinds of professions like being a writer, writing more words is no measure of my contribution to the world. Yeah, so if anyone's listening or watching right now and it's like, Dan, I just feel like I procrastinate a lot, I overthink a lot, and I waste time. What would be your response to that? Okay, so that's the productivity thing.

Now let's talk about procrastination because we know a lot about procrastination. Okay, procrastination is not always bad. Okay, sometimes you're procrastinating for a reason because you haven't worked it out because you're still incubating an idea. Okay, so it's not inherently bad. It's not like all procrastination is bad.

The second big idea here is that procrastination is basically in general, the downside, the negative procrastination is just an emotion regulation problem. It has nothing to do with time. It means that you are unwilling to confront something and therefore are not competing. Something is so disturbing to you

that you would rather actually sabotage yourself than confront it. That in some ways you're making a quasi-rational decision that the pain of confronting man, can I really write this, is greater than actually not writing it in the first place. So we know this from a lot of research. Procrastination is an emotion regulation issue. And so what you have to think about is what is the emotion that you're avoiding?

And is there a small step? Is there a way in some ways to trick yourself into either confronting it directly or to do something to just get yourself going? And that in that the action ends up confronting the emotion. But a lot of times, but again, I just in certain circumstances, it's hard to say the fact that you're not ready to start is a signal that it might be a very, very positive signal.

It could mean that, hey, I'm still incubating this. I'm Jay Shetty, and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprog, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter. It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Hawke. It's not about us as a generation at this point. It's about us trying our best to create change. Luminous Hamilton, that's for me been taking that moment for yourself each day, being kind to

yourself because I think for a long time I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on-purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Spagg,

the host of the Psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences, incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about. From the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s.

The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Now streaming on the iHot Radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. I am Yannna and on my podcast, the R-Spot, we're having inspirational, educational, and sometimes difficult and challenging conversations about relationships. They may not have the capacity to give you what you need. And insisting means that you are abusing yourself now. You human. That means that you're craziest hell, just like the rest of us. When a relationship breaks down, I take copious notes and I want to share them with you.

Anybody with two eyes and a brain knows that too much of Afraidosauce is just no good for you. Anybody with two eyes and a brain knows that too much Alfredo sauce is just no good for you, but if you're going to eat it, they're not going to stop you. So he's going continue to give you the Alfredo sauce and put it even on your grits if you don't stop him. Listen to the art spot on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcast. on the iHeart Video app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. I think as soon as you start labeling and going, all my procrastinations bad and this is not a good place to be in, you're right, you're just, every, all of that is just avoiding the actual emotion, which is a signal or a sign or an alert that's kind of trying to get your attention and, and, and you just keep putting it away. And I think what that leads to, and this is something which I found fascinating

in the book, it's like starting things. Like I feel like knowing when to start a business or knowing when to start a project is like the hardest thing in the world. And I'm sure you get us as a million times, but like tell us about the research behind starting something and what you found was most critical there.

There's very rarely, prospectively, a perfect time to start something. But there are ways to give ourselves a little bit of a different, a little bit of a psychological edge. And this is the work of Katie Milkman, Jason Reese, and Hank Tendai, they did it at Penn, University of Pennsylvania.

And they had this idea of what they call the fresh start effect. And a way to understand the fresh start effect is like this. Certain dates, certain dates, are what social psychologists call temporal landmarks. They stand out in time, the way a physical landmark stands out in space. So again, back to the journey metaphor. You're navigating your way, you're trying to find your. So again, back to the journey metaphor. You're navigating your way, you're trying to find your way, oh, there's a landmark, I know where I am. Oh, there's that building, I have a sense of where I am.

Temporal landmarks are navigational tools in some ways. But certain temporal landmarks have a peculiar psychological effect. What they do is essentially, they operate as kind of a restart. What they say is that on certain days that are fresh start days, you essentially relegate your previous bad self to the past and open up a fresh ledger on your new self.

And so there are certain days that actually are more, you're more likely to start something and you're more likely to succeed while starting it. So what does this mean? Let's be concrete here. You want to start something you're probably better up doing it on a Monday rather than on a Thursday. You're probably better doing it on the day after your birthday rather than three days before

your birthday. You're probably better doing it on the like the first day of summer rather than three days before the first day of summer. Let's say you're if one is a religiously observant, you know, the day after or the day of a religious holiday rather than four days before that religious holiday. And so you can in some ways use, have that sense of where you are temporarily

and pick the right date to start something. Yeah, I can so relate to that. And my problem is, I'll try to start something on a Monday. I'll fail on Tuesday. And then I can so relate to that and my problem is I'll try to start something on a Monday, I'll fail on Tuesday, and then I wait till the next Monday. Okay. So that's a mix bag. Yeah. That's a mix bag. It depends on how deep the failure was on Tuesday. Now there's another strategy for all of this. Yeah, please. Which on all of this, I mean, it's reasonably well known. And in some ways, it's interesting, because I think

it's analogous to our conversation about simplicity and the opposite of simplicity or simplicity and complexity. In that, I do think that in many cases, we have been seduced into the idea of moonshots and big hairy audacious goals. I think that they're important, but I think that they're oversold in a way. And what's undersold, just think about it, just think about it as a pricing issue, okay? So the big hairy audacious goals moonshots, I think they're overvalued. And I think what's undervalued is small wins. And once again, there's a lot of evidence of that

starting from Carl Blyte 30 years ago. Small wins are enormously important, because what small wins do is that they, small wins can overcome that procrastination problem. Small wins can then lead to other small wins and other small wins that cascade into something bigger. So a strategy for overcoming procrastination, a strategy for many things is to go for small wins.

Let me give you an example of that. The one strategy that I've heard of, I just called it this, it's not originally for me, it's just out there. I call it J5M, not JY for me. Just sort of you know out there. I call it J5M J5M not JY and that stands for just five more Okay, and so if you don't feel like doing something you say okay, you know what I'm gonna do Oh, man, okay, so I'm so I'm doing some research right now, okay? I have these papers some of them are incredibly boring, okay? You know what? I can't stand it I want to quit. You know what? I'll just read five more pages. Just five more pages. I'll read that.

Okay. Oh my god. I got a boatload of email here. I can't deal with it. I just want to go inside and have a drink. You know what? I'm going to just do five more five more emails and we'll do that. You know what? I'm tired of writing. Okay. Just five more sentences. That's it. And that, you know, that that's it. And that, you know, that can get us going, give you a small win and what happens a lot of times is that just five more becomes just 10 more, just 20 more, something like something like that. I really like that one. That's an awesome strategy. I think that's a good. It's very simple. I use it all the time. I'm not joking around. I use it today. I use it today. When I looked at my email file and I was like, oh, God, I've

already answered enough email to, I'm like, okay, God, I've already answered enough email to, I'm like, okay, just five more. And you know what I did? I just, I did that and I got it done and I probably ended up answering eight or something like that. Another one, a very well-known technique. I use it, I have no shame in using it.

You're probably familiar with it. Your listeners are probably familiar with it is the Pomodoro technique, which is, you know, Pomodoro is Italian for tomato, and so you set a timer, I have one on my computer that I use on very dark days, instead of timer for whatever, I do it for 25 minutes,

and I just can't bear this, I can't research this anymore, I can't read this anymore. I'm sick of writing. Okay, here's what we're going to do. It's 25 minutes. I'm not going to do anything else. I'm just going to do it for that 25 minutes. And that can, and that can, and I think, let me, let me extract from this as always, a

large theoretical lesson. And it's this, all right, that a lot of times in our understanding of what makes human beings tick, we think that belief proceeds action, that you have to convince yourself and then that is the impetus to act. And in many cases, more cases than we realize, the arrow runs in the other direction, that getting yourself to act can actually trigger the belief. Yes. And that's a very, very important, that getting yourself to act can actually trigger the belief. And that's a very, very important lesson. That's so true.

And that's really, it's kind of like, when we're like, I can't make my mind up, right? Like even that saying is exactly in that belief, where you're just spending so much time trying to make your mind up and decide something. And what I love about what you just said is around that whole, the small wins element of just, I always feel like when you can get into a good rhythm and pattern

of keeping promises to yourself and keeping small commitments to yourself, you start to trust yourself. And when you start to trust yourself, you can then trust yourself with bigger tasks. The problem is, like you said, is that we go for these moonshot goals and naturally we fail at them. And therefore, we don't trust ourselves. And I feel like self trust is like the big issue when it comes with time is that, you're like, well, do I even trust myself with this much time?

Do I even trust myself to complete that? And you're right about a small win, whether it's making your bed or just five more or all of these principles that you're laying out, like that just builds trust with yourself. I'll give you something else that builds trust with yourself that's related to this concept,

which is, again, is a research based. It's built on, I've written about this. I wrote about it in that book. I've talked about it before, is the work of Theresa Moby-Lay at Harvard Business School. And she found that the single biggest day-to-day motivator on the job is making progress and meaningful work. OK, so the days we're making progress,

the days where motivated we come back the next day feeling motivated. But one of the challenges is that we never have a good, we often don't have a good sense of how much progress we're making. And so one of the things that I've done for, this is now for like eight or nine years now, is at the end of every day I have a progress, you know, called a progress ritual.

And all I do is I just basically say, what would you get done today? And I just list what I got done today. And I keep a record of that. And I have to say, I almost never look at the list, but it's the act of doing, I mean, seriously, I almost never look at the list, but it's the act of doing. I mean, seriously, I almost never look at the list, but it's the act of doing it. So I just take a moment. It's a ritual.

And I don't have to tell you, former monk, the importance of rituals in human understanding. So it's a ritual. It's a punctuation market at the end of the day. What did you get done today, Dan? OK, this is what I got done. Ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba. What, I love that.

How do you do that for other people? So if you're leading teams, if you've got a small team, a big team, a company, how do you kind of help people realize the progress they're making? Is that funny? Yeah, there's something you can do for yourself. Yeah, how do you do for others? I mean, you can do a version of what I'm talking about for your team.

I mean, what I would wanna do is, I would wanna build that habit in others. Rather than have them rely on me for that, I would wanna build that habit in others. So what you could do is you could ask your team to send you that at the beginning, not as a way to monitor them, but as a way to monitor them, but as a way to

have it, as just as a way to build that habit and then eventually have them continue to have it without sending it to you. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to try, I'm actually going to try that out. I'm 100% going to try that out. What did you get done today? Just write down the things you get done. I mean, I mean, it's a very simple concept. We often have it to do a list at the beginning of the day, like have it done list at the end of the day. And it's almost like gain the fine in your mind, right? Because you know that if you got three things done yesterday, you might wanna get four done today,

so you'll push a bit further. Right, I think a lot of times, also when we're scrambling around, we don't have a sense of what we accomplish. Sometimes it can be, and sometimes it can be affirming. So I know that many days where I feel like I haven't gotten anything done during the course of a day,

I stop and I do my little progress ritual. Again, we're talking like, Jake, 30 seconds. 60 seconds. Yeah, we sure. Not anything elaborate. I'm like, oh, oh, okay, I actually got more done than the day. And then on the days where I didn't get much done, you're like, oh, come on, man got more done than the day. And then on the day's where I didn't get much done, you're like, oh, come on, man, you gotta do a little bit better

than this. Come back again. You're coaching yourself. You're coaching yourself. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. In many ways you are, what you're doing is you're just giving yourself, you know, you're coaching, if you think about it, like a sport, it's like in track and field or in swimming

or something like that, your coach is there with a stopwatch saying, here was your time today, okay? Or here's how much you lifted today. You have a sense of, are you making progress or you're not making progress? Yeah, I love that. One thing I want my audience,

everyone who's listening right now watching, I want you to be aware of is that literally, down in this book breaks out everything from productivity. I've done some of the tests with you guys before and I've shared the book when we talked about all of the different productivity times for different types of people based on what time you sleep and what time you wake up. And that's breaks. I'm not going to ask Dan all those questions because they're in the book and that's why I recommend the book. I want to ask Dan stuff that isn't in the book or is extending the book. And I think one of the biggest questions I do get asked that I do want to talk about

is relationships because I think dating and getting married and knowing when to either pop the question or when you should expect the question. These are like some of the biggest challenges in the world for on a personal individual level for people. And so tell me about some of the work that you found when it came to not just like when's the best time to get married, but it's almost like when did people, when did, or what did you find when people said they knew or they felt they'd found the right person? Yeah, that one is that one is more inscrutable, I have to say. I wrote about that only very, very candidively

because I wasn't sure about the research on that. I mean, what it says is that in general, in America, marriages are more likely to last if people get married after age 25 and before age, I think 34, somewhere around there. But again, that doesn't mean if you get married after age 25 and before age, I think 34 somewhere around there. But again, that doesn't mean if you get married at age 35, you're going to get a divorce. You get married at 28. I mean, it's just like there's a slight effect there. There is some interesting effects on education.

So that one big effect is that, especially in America today, people with more formal education are more likely to get married and stay married. People with less formal education are less likely to get married and less likely to stay married if they are. And there's also seems to be an effect, whatever your level of education on getting married after you complete your education rather than before. But again, I don't think you take those large population insights to make a decision about whether you're going to spend the rest of your life with somebody you love. I can recommend a book that is, well, one

of the leading scholars of marriage, really the social psychology of marriage, is at Northwestern, his name is Eli Finkl. You wrote a very good book called The All or Nothing Marriage, about how marriage has changed. A lot of what we know about healthy marriages and also how marriage has changed in America over the last 200 years.

It's a really, really, it's a very, very interesting book. All or nothing married. Yeah, the all or nothing marriage by Eli Finkle, which there's a lot of really good research, a lot of good research in there. And there are some relationship advice in there too. Among the most important things are, what do you attribute to someone's inherent personality

and what do you attribute to circumstance? So if your spouse snaps at you, say, oh my God, my spouse is the biggest jerk there ever was or you say, oh, my spouse is having a bad day. And people make the attribution that it's circumstantial, not surprisingly, end up better off than people who say, you know, a truebie of the behavior to someone's inner jerkiness. Right. Yeah.

No, it would be fascinating also to look at things like amount of time couples spent together, but amount of time couples spent arguing on, but amount of time, couple spent arguing on useful arguments maybe too. Yeah. There's other research out there. There's a guy I'm spacing out on this is a guy named Gottman, I think it's John Gottman. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's done some research on marriage. And one of the, this is not surprising. One of the biggest things that you see is, if I'm not, if I'm characterizing it right, is not only, not arguing per se, but how people argue. And so somebody has to do with the attribution. The other thing, one of the biggest signals

I think in Godman's research is, when people express contempt for their partner, not surprisingly, that's a marker of things gonna arrive. Yeah, yeah, you're right. He talks about learning how to fight, is the number one skill needed in the relationship, not knowing how to plan date night or how to just how to communicate

about a specifically fight. And yeah, really useful. One thing I wanna definitely dive into today is around this and you talk about in the book is about, you know, when's the right time to end something? Because I think we're always fascinated about it and we talked about that. Like, when do you know when you should start something and when's the perfect time to start? I think one of the things we're not very aware of when it comes to your business work, leases, whatever it may be, is ending. What have you learned, and not just in the book,

but what have you learned from just your own life and experience, and just like when you found is the right time to end something? That's a harder call to make. One of the things that I do know for sure though, is that endings are much more important than I realized before I did this research. That endings have a profound effect on our behavior.

And these have a profound effect on how we remember entire experiences. So famously, this fairly well known is that how an experience ends has a disproportionate effect on how people remember the entire experience. And also, even how we evaluate people's lives, too. So there's a famous piece of research on where it gave somebody a description of a fellow who for 29 years

was a wonderful guy, great CEO, generous, and whatnot. And then in his 30th year, he became a jerk and then unexpectedly died. And they said, they had people say, how moral of a life did that person lead? And then they had a different set of group people evaluated a different character. This character was a total weasel in jerk for 29 years.

In his 30th year, he decided to become a good guy, being more generous, and then he suddenly died. And so what they, what they found was that someone who was a good guy for 29 years and a jerk in his last year was rated as a slightly less moral than someone who was a good guy for 29 years and a jerk in his last year was rated as a slightly less moral than someone who was a complete jerk for 29 years and happened to be a good guy in his final year. So, how something ends has a big effect on us, how something ends has a big effect on how

you remember it, how the presence of ending has a big effect on our motivation. So when we see the end of something, we end up kicking a little bit harder. So, if so, a way to get yourself up to dime and certain kinds of procrastination situation is to impose an ending. So, but endings matter a lot. And I think that one of the things that we need to do in organizations and our family lives and what not is mark endings and establish rituals around endings because that ends up being a deep source of meaning for people.

Yeah, great answer. I love that example. That's super powerful. And I think everyone needs to think about that because often it's like, we put so much what you're saying and what I'm learning from this. And you're so right. And it's only hitting me now, too, is we put so much effort into starting something, like so much effort, like and it's only hitting me now too, is we put so much effort into starting something, like so much effort, like whether it's business or a relationship, whatever it is, like we're excited and all these enthusiasm. And then when you break up or you end a business or you reject someone or someone gets fired or whatever, maybe that process is always handled really poorly. Yeah.

And that's actually what people remember. Absolutely right. Yeah, and that's scary to think about when you think about that for a moment. But yeah, no, it's absolutely brilliant, and I hope we can continue to talk offline as well. I'm going to end with what we do, which is too rapid-fire rounds. They're super fast. You have been in the blanks for this one. So these are just two blanks. Are you ready? Yeah. Time should always be on your mind, but not obsessing your mind. Okay. Good answer. Okay. Second one. Haking breaks. Taking breaks is one of the most powerful bang for the buck, things you can do for your mental, physical, and professional well-being.

Number three, every day I must. Every day I must contribute. Okay, I love that. You excel in your career when? People excel in their careers when they contribute. I love it. Brilliant. Okay, these are your final five.

These are on to the one sentence. All right, I'm sweating now. Well, one word, yeah. Okay, ready? You got to make it to the end here, yeah. Absolutely. So the one lesson you feel helped you the most throughout your career. Not caring what other people think about me.

Great answer, I love that. What do you want to leave your kids with that you didn't have growing up? A deep and unshakable work ethic. Nice, okay. If you could create a law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Say please and thank you. Nice, great. Awesome.

Okay. Two more questions left. Fourth question. What is something that you know to be true that many people disagree with you on? So something that you're so sure about that a ton of people will be like, nah, down you, tell you wrong. The world is less fair than it seems. So you believe the world is less fair than it seems and So you believe the world is less fair than it seems?

And people with this review on that. Yeah. Well, that's a whole other conversation. I know. No one really has to have that. I know. I know. I know. And when I say people, I might be reflecting my own kind of biases here, but I think especially

well-educated American people. Sure. Great. It's a good answer. I mean, it's an intriguing point. Okay. Fifth and final question. What is the biggest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months? It never works to go against the grain of who you are. Wow, very profound. Wow, there's a tough question, man. But you answered them pretty quickly and well, so thank you.

I answered them quickly. I love it. This is so brilliant. I really hope we get to meet in person. That's wonderful. And yeah, thank you so much for doing this. Everyone Dan's got a ton of great books to sell a human drive, a whole new mind when going to go into these books. They're absolutely incredible. He's an incredible storyteller.

I mean, incredibly accomplished. I can't incredibly accomplished. I can't even start, but I'm just grateful to Dan to be with us today. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to.

I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to. I haven't been able to.

I haven't been able to. Hey guys, this is Jay again. Just a few more quick things before you leave. I know we try to focus on the good every day, and I want to make that easier for you. Would you like to get a short email from me every week that gives you an extra dose of positivity? Weekly wisdom is my newsletter where I jot down whatever's on my mind that I think may uplift your week.

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Our music is from Blue Dot Sessions and special thanks to Rachel Garcia, the dust-like development and operations coordinator. I'm Eva Longoria and I'm Mateo Gomes-Rajón. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories,

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I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on I Heart. I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions. Like, can we create new senses for humans?

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