On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Dating Expert Sabrina Zohar: You’re Not Confused, You’re Ignoring the Signs (THIS Mindset Shift Will End the “What If” Loop for Good)

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

Why do we chase people who don’t choose us, confuse anxiety for attraction, and stay in relationships that leave us questioning our worth?  Today, Jay sits down with Sabrina Zohar, podcast host and one of the most influential voices in modern dating, to unpack the emotional patterns that quietly shape how we love. Drawing from her own healing journey and work with thousands of clients, Sabrina explains how our childhood experiences, nervous system responses, and unhealed wounds influence who we’re drawn to often without us realizing it. Together, Jay and Sabrina explore what emotional availability really looks like, why consistency matters more than intensity, and how boundaries aren’t about pushing people away but protecting your peace. They break down common dating traps, from overanalyzing texts to mistaking butterflies for chemistry, and reveal why self-advocacy is one of the most important relationship skills we’re never taught. Through practical insights and deeply personal stories, Sabrina shows why asking for what you need isn’t “too much,” and why love should feel safe, not confusing. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Stop Chasing People Who Don’t Choose You How to Date Without Abandoning Yourself How to Set Boundaries Without Fear of Losing Someone How to Recognize Emotional Availability Early How to Break the Cycle of Situationships How to Ask for What You Need Without Feeling “Too Much” How to Stop Confusing Intensity for Intimacy You don’t need to chase clarity, overperform for love, or silence your needs to be chosen. Real connection begins when you feel safe enough to be honest, brave enough to set boundaries, and grounded enough to walk away from what doesn’t honor you. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:01 How to Tell If Someone Is Truly Interested 02:52 Why You Date the Parts of You That Aren’t Healed 06:04 Understanding Your Emotional State Before You Date 07:59 Don’t Ignore These Red Flags! 10:33 What Should a Healthy, Secure Relationship Feel Like? 13:34 Why Slowing Down Creates Real Connection 20:07 What’s Really Draining You About Dating? 24:09 Your Partner Will Trigger You, That’s Okay! 29:03 Building a Strong Foundation for Dating 32:45 How to Advocate for Yourself Without Fear of Losing Them 39:20 Are You Feeling Alone? 42:03 How to Spot Emotional Unavailability Early  44:51 Why Boundaries Are Non-Negotiable 46:56 How to Be Honest About Your Feelings 50:20 How to Communicate Your Needs Clearly 54:52 Why Relationships Must Support Growth 56:57 Timing Is Not a Reason to Hold On 59:23 Texting Etiquette in Modern Dating 01:12:33 Why Real Change Takes Time and Practice 01:18:36 Dating Rapid Fire  Episode Resources: Website | https://www.sabrinazohar.com/   Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/sabrina.zohar  YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/@sabrina_zohar  TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@sabrina.zohar   Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/p/The-Sabrina-Zohar-Show-100094409286590/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prins, Music is Therapy, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you're with somebody, I don't want you to focus on how do they feel about me. I want you to focus on how do I feel in my body when I'm with this person? We're so focused on, are they choosing me?

Are they going to pick me that we end up self-abandoning and say, my wants, needs and desires don't matter. I need you to like me. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place. you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I'm a huge fan of. I've been following her online for quite a bit now, and I'm so excited to introduce you to her. I'm sitting down with Sabrina Zohar, creator, podcast host, and one of the most viral

voices in modern dating. If you've ever found yourself chasing people who don't choose you, mistaking chaos for chemistry, or wondering why love feels so hard, this episode is going to hit home, Sabrina and I are going to dive into the patterns that keep you stuck, the boundaries that set you free, and the self-worth you need to finally date with clarity, confidence, and intention. And I love her no-b-s-approach. Please welcome to On Purpose, Sabrina Zoha. Sabrina, it's great to have you here. Jay, I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm honestly, when I've been following your content and watching your videos, I was like, I need to sit down with this one. She's got amazing insights. I love how practical is, how real it is. But let's dive right in. I think the challenge today is, or at least what I feel people struggling with is, almost like the old challenge of sitting there with a flower and going, they love me, they love me, they love me not. They love me, they love me not.

And I don't know when that was invented. But I feel like we're ruminating, we're overthinking, we're procrastinating. How do you know if someone's actually into you? It's so funny. Thank you for reminding me about the flower, because as you said, I was like, oh, my childhood. I think what we're really looking for. For me, I'm a big on effort equals interest. And I think we're getting in a time where that effort is starting to get muddied, right?

We're looking at it as, are they texting me every day? Are they contacting me? And we're looking at these dopamine hits as opposed to actually connecting with people. And so I think for me, are you feeling safe, seen, and secure with this person? Now, that might not happen after one date. But is this somebody that is reciprocal? Are they intentional? Are they consistent?

Are they showing up for you? And that doesn't just mean that they don't text you for a day. But is this person making plans? Are they actually progressing the relationship? And I think for me, you know, I'll be honest. Like I have ADHD. So my cadence, my speech, I'm a totally different way that my brain works. So I might show up differently and be super keen on somebody, whereas my partner is super avoidant

and he's not in the texting and his way of showing up is I'm going to spend time with you. And so I think it's really important when we're actually trying to assess if somebody likes you. I want to see, one, how does your nervous system feel? Are we constantly in this hyper-hypo-arousal, hyper-arousal? Are we high or we low? But I really think it goes back to the old school way of doing it. Can you have an open conversation with them? And at the end of the day, can you just ask them, hey, how are you feeling about this? And what are your intentions with where we're going? I know it sounds like, oh, we all want a trick and we all want something that we can look at. But I found really, most people are pretty apt to having a conversation if we approach it in the right way.

Yeah. And I think you're right. I think the challenge is that a lot of us still believe that love has to be earned and love has to be one. and so we love the idea of chasing and pursuing someone and they become more attractive the more they avoid us and they become more exciting the more elusive they are and them not messaging back for three days almost makes us think like they must be really busy and cool and interesting and so I've really got to work harder only for us to feel let down

because all of those were just signs that I'm not into you so why is it that we chase people who are disinterested or showing disconnect, not doing all the things you just said. They're not consistent. They don't make you feel safe. They actually make you feel insecure because you're constantly wondering whether they like you or not. Why do we keep chasing them?

And what should we do instead? The number one question I ask is if you're chasing somebody, if you're going into the ruminating and the spiraling, I want you to check in with how old do you feel and where did I learn this from? Because those are the two questions, two things in general that changed my life. Now, why do we do it?

It's interesting because when we ask, Why questions, and not that we're not going to answer it, but ourselves, why don't they like me? Why don't they, why aren't they into me? That's intellectualizing. And when we're intellectualizing, that's our way of saying, if I can understand it intellectually, I don't have to feel it. And for a lot of us, at least me, I grew up in a very chaotic household. I grew up with no safety. Really, there wasn't a presence of joy or a love. And so for me, it felt familiar. My nervous system understand, oh, you're not into me, similar to my dad. Then let me make you, Let me earn it.

And then there's the term repetition compulsion. Have you heard of it? No, I've not actually. Yeah. So repetition compulsion is a Freudian term. And essentially what it means is you're going to date the parts of you that haven't been healed. And so it's... Say that again.

That's so good. Yeah. So repetition compulsion means you're going to date the parts of you that haven't been healed. So for me, I had a narcissistic father. Every man I dated was incredibly narcissistic. Why? Because my nervous system's homeostasis was, you need to earn it. You're not enough.

There's something wrong with you. That gets wired into us before words. can even be said out of our mouths. That is wired in based on how your caregivers are tuned to your needs. How are they showing up for you? And I want to preface as well, no one's villainizing anybody's parents. This isn't about you had the worst parents. You had a big T trauma. Oftentimes it could be those small little paper cuts that start to add up. Maybe you had a parent that was really busy and they just didn't make eye contact with you. And so now you feel that I need to get somebody. And oftentimes we're self-abandoning. Because if I can get you to like me, well then my dad was wrong and everybody in the

past was wrong, but what happens? Then it reaffirms my core beliefs. See, I knew there was something wrong with me. That person doesn't want me. I couldn't change them. That's where I ask, when I start to chase somebody, how old do I feel? Do I feel like a kid? Do I feel like, man, I feel like I'm seven years old talking to my dad? So then we're not actually present. We're not in this present moment. We're not coming from the adult. We're coming from the little wound kid that just needs to be seen, heard, loved, and understood. Then what I would say is, I start to look and say, what are my choices? If you can't access your choice, then that means we need to regulate. And so this is something that actually blew my mind. My friend's a brilliant neuroscientist. His name is Dr. Chris Lee.

And he taught me, your state determines your story determines your strategy. Tell me about what that state means. So the state being, are you, what is your nervous system state? Are you regulated? Meaning I can access my prefrontal cortex. I can access choice. Right now I feel safe. Both of us are here. But if somebody came in with a knife, we would get dysregulated. You might just bolt, I might freeze, right? Our nervous system will change. Yeah, I would just leave you. Right, yeah. That would be it. I'd be hiding. But everybody handles it differently, right? You might fight. Everybody is going to come out depending on what feels safe and in the moment. But oftentimes, the problem is that there's no tiger. There's no threat.

It's just our nervous system is perceiving it because our brain wants to save space. And if our brain says, it's easier for me to go, this always happens, then I don't have to turn my prefrontal cortex on it, access that place of choice. So when we look at your state, Think about it in if I'm super dysregulated. My state is going to determine the story. I'm not safe. I need this person to answer me. There's something wrong with me.

I'm not good enough, which will then determine my strategy. I'll text them again. I'll get them to like me. As opposed to, I need to learn to sit in the discomfort. I have to allow myself because when we can sit in the discomfort and expand our window of tolerance, which essentially means how long we can stay in our ventral state versus going up and down, when you expand your window of tolerance, you can handle more things. then it's not as scary, right? The person that doesn't call you, it's, that's okay, maybe they're going through something. I don't need to make it about me. But oftentimes the reason we go after these emotionally unavailable people is because they're familiar, they're familiar, they're safe, and it's a baseline. Because if that's all you've known, then that's all you're going to do. You can't do better until you know better.

Do you take private clients? There's so many people I want to introduce you to now. I'm so excited that you're here. I couldn't agree with you more, and that's sat so deeply and resonated so strongly for me right now as you're saying it. is there such a thing as immediate red flags? Are there things that people can say and do that you consider to be immediate red flags? 100%. I have a few that come to mind. The first one is, my favorite question to ask on a first date is how did your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? I don't care about your ex. I really, I could give a shit. What I care about is, what did you learn from it? Are you growth-minded? Do you take accountability and ownership? For instance, the biggest thing that narcissists will say is, all my exes are crazy. Okay, well, if all of your exes are crazy, what's your accountability in it? Do you have any empathy for their experience? That off the bat

shows us no thank you. Another thing that I always suggest to run is when somebody tries to say you deserve better. Because when someone says you deserve better, what they're saying is I'm not going to become the version of what you need me to be, so you should find somebody else. We also want to look, what happens when you say no? That doesn't work for me. Do they respect your boundaries? Are they pushing back? I've had that, right? When I dated, if somebody said, I want to go out at 10 o'clock, I would say, oh, no, I go to bed by 930. I apologize. That doesn't work for me. Why don't we do six? Oh, wow, what? Is there something wrong? Or is your babysitter not going to let you? Unmatch immediately, because you didn't respect what I had to say. So then what are we leading towards if off the bat

you're making fun of me for setting a boundary? So I think what's important is we're so focused on, are they choosing me? Are they going to pick me that we end up self-abandoning and say, my wants, needs and desires don't matter. I need you to like me. And so we then overlook all the red flags of, well, are they showing, are they holding any space for you? Do they use eye statements or do they blame you for everything, right? These are the little things that we overlook and not because there's anything wrong with us, but because maybe we weren't taught any better. And I know I wasn't. I used to think grandiosity and the charm, oh, butterflies, those are my favorite thing. Until I found out, butterflies are actually your nervous system's way of telling you that you might

need to run. Because if that person wasn't as attractive, you probably wouldn't be as interested. That's exactly what I find. We're willing to tolerate. much poor treatment because we find someone attractive, interesting, or fascinating in whatever way, whether it's their mind, their body, their face, their charm, and someone who doesn't have those features that we subjectively are attracted to, even if they did all the other things, we just push them away. But again, it comes back down to what you're saying, that those butterflies that we trust as a sign of excitement and chemistry and desire are usually a sign of, please, you're feeding all this, but don't ignore all of this.

And the natural thing is it just hijacks that mindset and it takes away all of the sense that we have. And we've all had that feeling. You meet someone and you're so enthralled and impressed by them that you completely ignored all of these things. How do we feel a sense of spark in chemistry with someone but not forget our head? So that really goes back to that regulating. Because here's the fallacy that I think a lot of people may not understand about a healthy and secure relationship is if you're having high highs and low lows, then that is inherently not healthy and secure because what we have is intermittent reinforcement. Are they giving me a little? Okay, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting. Oh, I come crashing down. Then they give me a little. We're high, low, high,

low. A healthy and secure relationship, for me at least, was a lot less exciting. It was, oh, when I communicate with you, you validate what I just said. So I don't have to argue with you. I don't have to prove my worth. And for a lot of us, that can feel really scary. I know when the first time I said a boundary, I was terrified. I was so scared. I'm like, he's going to leave me. He's not going to like me. He's going to think I'm too much. And that was how I thought of myself. And that's what I was projecting onto him. Now, did people in the past do that 100%. But I have met my fair share. I'm a heterosexual woman, so I'm going to speak in those norms where I've gone on dates with men that are, I'll tell you a story. I had a date that was written in the

stars, right? I remember I was like sweating, sitting next to this guy. People were like, you guys have been together for years. Now it's our first date and we're together for five hours. And we make out at the bar, it's a whole thing. And I was supposed to see him again, didn't end up seeing each other. Years later, this was an on and off, on and off thing. And he kept getting a girlfriend and on and on and off. Years later, I'm getting, I'm in an appointment. I didn't want to give it away by saying where I was. Years later, I'm an appointment. I'm telling the girl this story. And all of a sudden she stops and goes, what was his name? And I said his name. And she turned white. And she started shaking. And she's like, that's my narcissistic ex who literally

ruined me. And she was hyperventilating. And I had to hold her. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry and she was like he was abusive. He was doing all of these things to me. I finally got out. You're so lucky you didn't go down that road. And in the moment, she was right because I completely overlooked the fact that he lied to me a bunch of times. He never took accountability. He was constantly deflecting. There was zero depth, right? He didn't want to have the conversations. Now, that's different than if he wanted to, he would. That's not what I'm talking about. He didn't have the capacity. And so I think what we're looking for is when you're with somebody, I don't want you to focus on how do they feel about me.

I really don't care. I want you to focus on how do I feel in my body when I'm with this person? Do I feel secure? Do I feel confident that I can say what I need? Or am I scared that everything I say I don't know how they're going to react? You can be excited. But my mama has said to me, anytime you're excited, you need to add something at the end of the sentence for now.

And everything was, I had a great date for now. I really liked this guy for now. Because what it allows us to do is be in the present moment. For now, I really like this. But I'm not projecting on the future. I'm not putting that, I'm only safe if I have this person because when we put someone on a pedestal, we're saying they're above us, I have to have them. But really what we're looking for is two equals, right?

I give 80% one day, maybe you give 80% and we're balancing and we're going back and forth, but the presence of safety and a healthy and secure relationship actually means that it's going to be a lot less up and down and it's going to be a lot more consistent. And for people like me that grew up in chaos, that felt really scary because I didn't understand it. Yeah. What about someone, I've heard this a lot lately, and that's what I'm asking you from people I'm coaching and working with. What happens when someone shows you all the right things for four to six weeks? So they text back, they're consistent, they show up when they say they will. And then all of a sudden after six weeks of spending nearly every other day together or seeing each other multiple

times a week, they change. Now they're inconsistent. Now they message back after three days. Now they don't have time to see you. Something's come up in their life. And then you're waiting around only for three months in, they go, yeah, this is not working out. That comes as such a shock to people. Now, Love bombing's one version, but that often feels like it's one person just trying to win you and show you and kind of, you know, kind of give you this perspective that they love you. But this is more like, no, we're just both being adults. We're connecting. There seems to be regulation. There seems to be consistency. I'm seeing all the good signs. But then two months in, you're a totally different person. How have you seen people deal with that in a good way or in a healthy way?

It's jarring, right? I'll never discredit anyone's experience that when you think everything is good, but even you said something in the beginning that was really important. If they spend every other day together, it's like that's intensity. And that's the thing. And that's why I can feel really scary and really, because there's a lot of people depending on the attachment style that they have, where they go and they operate from feelings minus fear.

And so for some people, they'll go in 100% of, I feel really good now, I feel really good now, because they're not taking a minute to say, hey, is this actually what I want? What does this person have? Are there qualities? For a lot of people, they might enter it in in excitement. Look, they're there, I'm here, and we're excited, we're excited, we're excited. And then the novelty wears off because the person is consistent because they're not playing games. They're not being activated in the same way. And that's usually when you'll start to see the pull away. For me, that's why I'm a big proponent of going slow. Going slow isn't an excuse for bad behavior. Going slow just means you're not expediting the stages of the relationship quicker than they need to be. And so what that can even look like is saying, sorry, I have plans this week. I can only see you once or twice because I'm maintaining my life. You haven't earned a place in my life yet. And I see that a lot of the times, and I used to be her. I would meet a guy. I saw this terrible dating advice. She said, always have your dates on Thursday because if it goes well, you can make plans for Saturday. And I said, oh, absolutely not, no ma'am, because that I'm too accessible. Then what I'm telling this person is,

I have nothing going on. What do you want to do? And instead, they're in addition to my life not instead of. And so if I'm welcoming you into my life, you have to earn that place into my life. And so I would say this, if it's happened, the best thing to do is want to take it personally, because we have to ask how could it be you? Now, if you can remove yourself and say, yikes, okay, I text them 300 times yesterday. I called them a bunch. I started accusing them. Great. If you could be self-aware enough to remove yourself and understand it. But a lot of the times, we have to say, what's the story and the narrative that you've created about the situation? Because that's usually what's hurting more. It's less about, of course, right?

But if you knew this person for a month and a half, do you really know anything about them or is it the idea of them? The scarcity mindset, I might never meet anybody else. They were the best I've met. I haven't met anyone like this. So then we're already putting them in a place that they haven't earned. Because if they were so amazing, then they would have stuck around. And instead of thinking about what if, we have to look at what is.

And what is, is that this person didn't show up in the ways that I need. That doesn't work for me. Yeah, I can't wait to send that to so many people to listen to it. because sadly it seems to be the reality. And I agree with you completely that it's all about that regulation because when we like something, we want to fall in love and we want it to be real and we want to speed it up and we want to spend every night with that person

because that's what the movie showed us and that's what the music talked about. And that's what we believed was love, not only to realize that you are just making your access weaker, you're giving away all of yourself with not even knowing whether this person, deserves it or has the values for it or has the character for it. And you can see it in hindsight, but then you go make the same mistake because we all just want to be wanted so bad. We all want

to be needed so bad. We want to be loved so bad that we're willing to give away our energy, our presence, our body freely because it just feels so good to be wanted. Of course. Who doesn't want to be wanted? But here's my question, who do you want to be wanted by? Them or you? More often than not, when we're, I need them, I need them, your littles aren't. scared that they're going to leave you. You're little older scared that you're going to leave them because that's what's always happened to them. If growing up, even for me, my experience was, my father was very abusive to us and he was not father of the year by any means. And so for me, it was please come back for me, please come back for me. And I didn't realize that in my dating life,

I was doing to her what my dad did to me. I was doing to her and saying, you don't matter to me, get away, you're too much. So if I'm shaming and blaming myself, how am I going to grow? If I show myself compassion, I can actually do that. And I understand. the need and desire to be wanted. But if we, my mom again, will say, if you got to love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people, it's not that I can't love you if you don't love yourself. That's a fallacy. I have money of people can love you if you don't love yourself. But if I need you in my life versus want you in my life, it's going to be very dangerous. And I found that out when my dog passed away. I used to joke when he was alive. I'd be like,

oh, he's never going to die. Oh, he's never going to die. And then he did. And it happened within 10 days, and it was the hardest thing I've ever experienced, and I lost everything in that moment, and that's when I realized I can't be so beholden to an external because I lost myself. I was a shell of a human, but I started my career at that same time. And I made that promise to myself, I will never. And so even in my partnership now, I love my partner. I think he is one of the most amazing people I've met, but I also know that if today we decided it wasn't going to work, I'd move on with my life, not because I don't love him

and not because I don't think that we could have a beautiful life together. But I also know that my life goes on and I can't be holding on to somebody else hoping that they're going to validate and choose me for me to live that life. I'm so sorry for your loss. What was your dog's name? His name was Clem. I've got him. He was my best friend and he was my object permanence. He was with me for 10 years and he saw every heartbreak.

He saw everything. And I think at the end of the day what he taught me was that there are things in people that can love you for who you are. Like I know. I know I'm a big personality. I know I talk fast and I have a different cadence and I come out of the bat. And I know that a lot of people might not like that. But if I hate that about myself, how am I going to be with someone that loves that about me? Because I'm constantly going to be trying to change that.

Yeah. And so my dog really taught me this really unconditional love and what that means. And he also taught me that I don't need to be for everybody and that's okay. Yeah. Well said. Beautiful lessons. I feel like right now everyone is exhausted with dating apps, setting up dates, figuring out who's going to pay for it, where you're going to meet.

Where do you start if you're exhausted with dating but you want to find love? I think what's really important is to we have to look at what's exhausting us. I used to get exhausted from dating because I was putting so much pressure. I was putting all, I would match with a guy and be checking my phone hype like every three seconds. Where are they? Have they answered me? Because what was I saying? They're going to make my life better.

This is what I'm waiting for. This is what it is. And if I'm, again, if I'm not focused on what is right now, that I'm thinking of all of these other things it could be. And so I would say, if you're tired from dating, then we have to start taking a break where they need. And that just means, again, let's talk about state, story, strategy. If your state is burnout and exhaustion and you are just completely done, then your story is going to be, there's no one for me, I'm so tired, I'm never going to meet anybody, I want this to be done. So what's your strategy going to be? You're going to constantly go after the wrong people.

You'll hold on to people because you're scared to let them go. And I think here's the thing. What I've learned and why people are so tired of dating is because they haven't learned to grieve. Because when you hold on to everything and you haven't learned how to grieve the ending of things, it's going to be very difficult for you to move on and go to the next and go to the next. Because the reality is, my partner always says, think of the stupidest person you know. And remember that the population is about 49% stupider. Right? Like there are a lot of duds.

There's amazing people out there. But that's what dating is. And dating is that you go out and you see not just are you choosing me, but do I choose you? Do you work with my life? But I can't do that unless I learned a grief. And so I think a lot of the fatigue we need to look at and say, where is that coming from? And then ask, what are my choices? Do I have to engage in that?

No. I met my partner in an app. You don't have to meet your partner on an app. But if your answer is, I don't want to do dating apps, are you okay getting rejected in person? Are you okay going up to someone and saying, I love that sweater. And they go, I have a girlfriend. No worries. Thank you so much.

I was asking for that, my brother, but thank you for telling me. Right? You've got to be okay and be really grounded in yourself. Apps are easier because you're... And so I think it's the expectations that we have. And we have to remember, apps are a dopamine addiction loop. And so is your cell phone. That's why I'm a big fan of don't text a lot.

Because what happens, when you meet somebody and you start texting a ton, you're creating a dopamine addiction loop. And so your brain is going, I need more, I need more, I need more, because it's trying to baseline. And then when you're stressed, all of your neurotransmitters are being depleted. And then here we are where you're a hot mess because the person didn't text you back in 20 minutes. And so I think the exhaustion and fatigue really comes from, what are we thinking that these people are going to give to us? And then how can I live that life now so that when I meet someone, I say, I'm allowing you in my life because you're not going to mess with what I have.

And that's how it was when I met my partner, I was a shell of a human. I lost clam, my company. I was supposed to be in a shark tank and it didn't work. It was a whole thing. But I remember thinking in my head, I can't afford to lose myself. And so when I met him, I said, hey, I looked him in the eyes. I'll be honest with you. I slept with my partner on the first date.

And I looked him in the eyes when we left after we went to dinner. And I said, I had a really great time with you. And if this is all it was, thank you so much. I really needed tonight. But if not, and you're going to call me again, don't waste my fucking time. You better call me because you're intentional. And he was like, he thought that was so sexy. He was like, man, and he said it, you weren't afraid to lose me.

He was like, you were more afraid to lose yourself. And that made it very sexy because he knew that me wanting him in my life wasn't me trying to hold on to him. I was choosing him. I love that. That's so cool. Yeah. It's a different energy. And that's, I think, and I'll be honest, I didn't wake up like this.

I used to be so, I created my career because I was so anxious, I couldn't sit still. I would, oh my God, Jay, you don't want to know. In my heyday, I would text a guy and say, like, I would text him, hey, do you want to hang out? 20 minutes would go by it. And you're back, I'd go like, okay, guess not. And then I'd get a text from him and be like, hey, I actually did want to hang out with you, but not anymore. And it's like, they're right. That's so good.

They're right, because they could pick up on, I need you. And nobody wants to feel that when you just met somebody. It's a very overwhelming feeling. I don't care what your attachment style is. Yeah. But I think that's the challenge, right, that we are scared of being ourselves because ourselves is that right now, where our natural gut reaction is to message someone, hey, do you want to hang out? Hey, are you sure you don't want to hang out?

And that's who we are because we are coming from a place of insecurity and not feeling safe, as you said earlier, from our past wounds. And so being ourselves doesn't help either because being, and so then we block being ourselves. So we say, oh, you know what, I'm going to be mature. I'm going to send one message and I'm going to wait. But the real you is stressing over the fact that you want to send another message. And so how do you live between those two worlds between wanting to become your higher, more evolved, emotionally intelligent self, but really you're stuck being insecure,

confused and chaotic. So that's now. The only thing I'll challenge you on is who says that to you are. Who says that to you are? I mean, not who you are at the core, but who you are right now. That's your base level. Totally. Then I would go back and say, where did I learn that from? Because if we're going to date from lack and we're going to date from, I'm insecure, I don't believe in myself, it's going to be really difficult to let someone love you in the ways that you deserve. Because the reality is, and you know this, you're married. Your partner's going to trigger you. You are going to be triggered. Your partner's going to piss you off. They're going to say things and you're like, oh, no, but you don't because you care about this person and you love them. But part of being a human is you're going to get triggered. And so I think what I see, especially with a lot of people when we have that insecurity, is for me, I would say, okay, is that who you are? Is that what you were taught? Because if that's what I was taught, then that means that who I authentically am, I authentically am someone who has a lot of light, who's excited, who's passionate, who's gregarious, who's a big personality. I'm not insecure. I'm not those things. But I do identify as that. And I think that's very human. So I would say what we want to start to do is look at. I would never suggest somebody date if they're in.

such a place of lack. I would not. It's the same as anything else. Like, I wouldn't suggest somebody go and run a marathon if they've never gotten off the couch. It's like we want to move in steps. Because like New Year's resolutions, your nervous system is going to go, I can't do this way too overwhelming. So we want to go smaller and have bite-sized kind of steps. And so maybe that means that if you want to be the really evolved person that only sends what text and you are hell in a handbasket, then maybe that means that we put one minute. One minute. Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to take the stimulus and put space between reaction and response. And so maybe that's it. For one day, you say, okay, I waited the minute and then I sent the text.

But then the next day, maybe it's you waited two minutes. You waited three minutes. What we have to look at is, what are my choices? Sure, we can keep showing up in those ways. Or we can say, wait a minute, I need to regulate my nervous system. I need to break this loop. I need to go for a walk. I need to get myself back into a place where I can access choice, then I can decide if I want a text this person. We can have all those tools. But then we have to look and say, but am I identifying with something, right? I'm sure you hear this all the time. I am anxious attachment. No, no, no, no, you're not that. You have that. I am not ADHD. I have ADHD. If I self-identify and I fuse with the part, it's going to be very difficult for me to see myself

in any other light. And so I think if we have insecurities, we're all human. I do. I think every day there's something wrong with me because I'm a person. But what I do is I then stop and say, what did my little need to hear? What did little Sabrina need to hear when she said, oh, this must be why there's something wrong with me, she needed someone to come and say, no, that has nothing to do with them. I think you're amazing. I think you're really cool. And I'd like to hear what you want. Because we haven't, we have to hold the space in a way that we weren't held when we were there. That's how we'll start to be able to build through the insecurities, date from a more regulated space. But without that, we're putting makeup on a pig. Right. They're like, oh, send him this text to get

this. It's like, I've gotten inappropriate photos. It does not work. Like, I've gotten my fair share I'm like, that's not what I expected, because you can't manipulate and control other people. You can only control yourself. Yeah, I don't love that advice. I don't think it works. It doesn't. And it's just gamified. And it's not you and it's a technique and it's a strategy that ends up.

You know, it's like strategies of like business and projects, not for people. And, you know, when it comes to people, you want to be able to be authentic, be yourself and connect with someone on a real perspective rather than having some perfect AI script out your perfect text message. We've gotten a few profiles where I look and I'm like, that was chat chbtee that wrote it. And I actually had a client once and I would talk to him. And I was saying, you know, what if they said this? And he was writing it and taking the exact. So he had all this depth on his profile. And then he would say, I don't understand.

Why are these girls not wanting to meet me? I said, can I see the match? Like, can I see the conversations? Hey, you look pretty. And then one girl even said, but your profile was so deep. What is this? Yeah. And I was like, you can't pretend for.

How long are you going to pretend for? That's going to be really exhausting. That's going to lead you to burn out. versus you're right. People aren't going to like me. And that's okay because I have to be, my mom has always said, you can please some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time.

And you've got to be okay to disappoint people with who you are. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable? Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Pryn's Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question.

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Brough had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention. Listen to I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either. From the Black Effect Podcast Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or simply wherever you get your podcast. You talk about setting a foundation in dating. I want to hear about that because I think when people, are dating, we almost see it as just like, okay, well, this person messing me back, I'm now

talking to them, now we're going to go on a date, maybe this other person. I don't think we have a system. I don't think we have a foundation. I don't believe we have non-negotiables that we create and craft to keep us on track. What would you say are the foundations of dating and what are the non-negotiables that allow us to make that experience more effective for us? For me, my number one non-negotiable was you have to be done with your ex. Like, I am so tired of hearing, oh, my ex wants to get back together. I'm not over my ex. It's like, then please don't get back into the dating world if you don't feel like you can be present with somebody else. It's okay that you might still be hurting, but then please don't go back out there. I think for me, I want to see, are you growth-minded?

My partner always asked questions, and the one question he asked was, what is something you changed your mind about recently and what prompted the change? I want to see, are you rigid, or are you flexible, right? We want to start to understand that. What happens when I say no? What happens when I said a boundary? How do they treat waiters? I want to see somebody when they're dysregulated, because then I want to see, did you just yell at that person because he didn't get your car at the time that you wanted? No, thank you. I have no interest in this. And so what we're trying to look and see is that, first of all, is like, does this person treat other people well? Is it somewhere where I can feel comfortable? Are they using eye statements? Or are they saying, you never call me, you never do this.

Okay, so we're using all and never. Those are not really fair terms. But I think when we're talking about a solid foundation, that's where going slow comes into play because what we're doing is we're saying every single time I see you. It's first date, just to see if I want to have a second. just to see if I want to have a third. But oftentimes we go on a first date and say, Prince Charming. And the thing is, Disney lied to us because Disney told us what happened happily ever after. They didn't tell us, did Prince Eric have a drinking problem? Right? Like, did, did Bell not get out of the house again? Was she dealing with that? We don't know what comes after it. We just see happily ever after. And so what we're really looking for is, what does that look like to you? And I think

for me, I was so focused on, but if you like me, I like me, instead of saying, no, I actually don't enjoy that and holding the space to say, I don't like that. And if you don't either, that's okay. But I think the solid foundation comes when you can have a space where you can trust, and that includes hard conversations. Because I think a lot of people, and I'm sure I'm curious, if you hear this as well, I hear it every day if I don't want to be too much. I don't want to push them away. If I ask that, they're going to think I'm too much. Then good, go find less. If you think I'm too much, I'd encourage you to go find less because that doesn't make me too much. What that means is that I want to see if you are okay for me. And that's why I'm big on, if someone,

somebody says something that hurts you? Hey, can I share something with you? What's going on? I really didn't love the way you said that. It really made me feel small. I felt very dismissed and discredited. Moving forward, can we have a different way of saying it? If your partner, absolutely. Thank you so much for telling me. Great. Move on. Go and to, you pass go, collect $200. But if you can't even have the rupture, the regulate, and then the repair, you're not going to be able to move forward with these people. And so I think from the beginning, that's why I told my partner that out at first date. I could have left and gone play a cool. Oh my God, don't say anything. What did I have to lose? I hit myself. And that was way too high of a price. And so I'm a big fan of

don't trauma dump. Please don't trauma dump on a first date. Please, please. We don't need to start talking about like how your father hit you when you're a kid. Your date does not need to know that. We have to be really cognizant that we don't know who these people are and we don't know what information they could take and put in their back pocket and use against us. Trust is conditional. I give you a little. I see what you do with it. I give you more. That's the foundation I want people to build, which is I trust myself because no matter what I have my back. And if you don't, that's okay, I do. Because I'll speak. My voice now needs to be heard and it never was. And I think that's part of the foundations is having your non-negotiables mean I'm not playing small

anymore. This doesn't mean I need to overreact, but I'm not going to play small. One of your greatest skills, Sabrina, as I'm hearing you talk about this, is your ability to advocate for yourself. And that's what you encouraging people to do is to actually advocate for yourself, your beliefs, your thoughts, your values. And I think that's a skill that no one really has or is trained in in that there's nowhere in life that teaches you to advocate for yourself. Like school never taught you that. Your parents rarely tell you that. And when you're young, you just ask for stuff. You're not advocating, right? You're like saying, oh, I want this for Christmas or I want this for whatever, but you're not advocating. Like, you're not presenting an argument or

sharing a value because you've been treated a certain way. And we struggle to do it at work. People struggle to do it with their colleagues, their bosses, their managers, everyone. So as I'm listening to, I'm like, okay, advocating for ourselves is one of the of the biggest skills. And I remember talking about foundations for dating or being clear and advocating. I remember when me and Riley first started dating, one of the first things I said to her was I was like, I'm not the kind of guy that wants to go to the cinema on the weekend and then go to a furniture store. And that's just not who I am. And I'm the kind of guy who has a purpose and this is what I do on my weekends and this is my priority. And I just want you to know that that's not because I think

this is less than, this is just who I am. And I just wanted her to be clear on what she was getting involved in where I was like, hey, if there's a clash between something that's a family event of yours or me, and at the time I was doing like five person events in London. And I was like, if I've got an event, I'm always going to prioritize my event because I'm doing that on my weekends and it's really big for me. But if it's something that you really want me to come to, then it's a conversation. But more likely than not, I'm going to advocate for wanting to go to this thing. And I did that not to be douchy or to be self-righteous or to be better. I did it because that's just who I am.

And luckily, Radia at the time would be like, yeah, I totally get that. And by the way, if you want me to be at that and I have this, I'm probably going to go to this. Because as much as I want to support you, this is a priority for me. And our relationship has continued to be that way up until this point. And to me, I've just seen it as a great strength that I was able to advocate and she was able to advocate for herself. Now, had I not advocated for myself, and I think often what we're going to be able to advocate for myself. And I think often what we do is we try to advocate for what the other person should do. So,

hey, when I do this, can you come and join me? Rather than, like, this is a priority for me and I'm going to make it a priority for myself. Teach us the skill of advocating for ourselves because most of us just want to let it go because we don't want to be too much enough or crazy. I think where it started from is a memory that comes very vividly. When I was a kid, my dad, like I had mentioned, was not a very kind man at times. And my sister and I got into a fight and I ran into my room. And I remember he said, open the door. I promise you, I'm not going to hate you. And I said, no, you are. And I remember I had a little suitcase. And I only know this because I had to go back and see her. And I kept asking myself, where did I learn that I couldn't speak up? And it was because I said, Dad, do you promise? And I

opened the door and he punched me in the face. And I was bleeding everywhere. And he left. And he left just for three weeks. And I remember my brother on the couch saying, how am I going to be the man of the house? I'm only 14. And I was seven. And so I knew in that moment, you're not safe. And I also learned in that moment is, you can't speak up. You got to keep your mouth shut, girl, because if you open it up, you're going to have this again. You almost lost your father for your family. And I carried that with me. And it wasn't until I started to do the work where I said, where did I learn that from? And I went back and I literally, I opened the door for her. And I told him, get out of my face. And I spoke to my father as the version now. And I took her and I said, we're out of here. You don't have to live here anymore.

And I have done that every single day because whether she be in the attic, whether she be back in that room, it doesn't matter where she is. For anybody that's listening, you might not have that journey. You might have it be something completely different. But if you want to advocate for yourself, you've got to learn where you learn that that wasn't safe. And I have to give myself permission to advocate for myself. And then what I also have to do is no, people are going to not be like okay with that. We have to remember, if you've never set boundaries and then all of a sudden you start setting boundaries with someone and they push back, well, yeah, because they bet. benefited from the version of you that didn't have any. And so now when you start to show up differently,

you're going to have to grieve that people are going to leave. But then what you also do is you get to choose who gets to come into your life. Because what you did with Roddy was beautiful. Hey, here's where I'm at. And she says, okay, here's where I'm at. And you're both going, that works for me. And you're making a choice because you're both able to make choices. And that's the problem is when we think I don't have a choice. Well, they didn't call me. I don't know what to do. You're not six years old waiting for your mom or dad to let you out of that room. you get to choose. Now, that took a lot of work. That took a lot of tears. That took meditation. That took me years of having to really sit and say, I'm okay with this. And I would be lying to if I said that

I wake up every morning like that. I have to advocate for myself online. You know the internet as well as I do. It's a terrible place to be. And when I get trolls or attacked, I'm the one that has to say, I don't appreciate this. Get out of my ecosystem. Because if I don't stand for something, I fall for everything. And if I don't have my own back, who is going to? And I learned that. the hard way in childhood when no one had my back. Who was there? And so now really the way to start to advocate for yourself is to understand where did I learn that I couldn't and to reparent that version of us, to be able to even close your eyes, hand on your stomach, hand in your belly, and just say, I feel like I'm six right now. And that's okay that Sabrina's really scared,

but I want her to know that she has me and that dad's no longer here and I got rid of him. Now that didn't make it magically okay, but what I did was I showed myself compassion and I was able to close the loop in my brain that it's safe for me to do that. And then I deal with what up. And so I think if you want to advocate for yourself, we have to learn where you learn that that wasn't safe. And then we have to go back, even into meditation therapy, it doesn't matter, right? You could do this however you want. I do with clients. We all do it in different ways, but we have to be able to go back to those parts and tell those versions. It wasn't you. Because what happens, I don't know if you're familiar with egocentric age. And so essentially

what that's saying in psychology is from zero to seven, zero to ten, depending on the school thought, is that we are narcissistic as children. You have to be. That's how you learn like, oh, I fell. Okay, I could get back up. But we attuned to our caregivers. And so during that phase, if at six years old, your father keeps leaving, of course you're going, oh, it's me. Oh, there must be something wrong. Because if you didn't have an adult to come and say, hey, they're unstable. This isn't you. You didn't do anything wrong.

Their way of dealing with this doesn't mean anything about you. Who had those parents, right? Very few of us. Then that's where we create these core beliefs. And then the core beliefs become our stories, and then they become our cognitive dissonances. And then that's how we start to move through the world. And so it really starts with, where did I learn this from? And then what did I need them that I have to give myself now?

and that was me having a voice and being okay that my voice is going to hurt people but it's also going to help people. Thank you for sharing that difficult example. I hope that helps a lot of people because just hearing how connected they are and of course how traumatic and difficult that moment is but at the same time how much resilience it brings and how much strength it brings in this moment now because of your actions then and because of your ability then and I hope that gives everyone else permission to really do that work. Doing the work isn't all the fancy buzzwords. No. It's what you just shared so openly and I'm so grateful for your vulnerability because I really believe you're giving everyone who's listening permission to do that same work before

we just walk into another relationship and walk into another situation what we don't advocate for ourselves. Two years go by, we know we've been suppressing, advocating for ourselves. and then that person leaves us because we never advocated and we never said what we wanted and then they left anyway. I would argue to anybody that's scared, what if they leave me or what if I'm alone? It's like, but aren't you already? Aren't you already alone? I've been in relationships where I couldn't be my authentic self and I would cry myself to sleep

because I felt more trapped in my own body, right? I couldn't be myself. I couldn't be authentic. And I think the biggest thing that I learned along the way was that it's really important to thank you a little. because I am so grateful that my little Saab learned these coping mechanisms. I'm not grateful she had to, but I'm grateful she did because she did keep me safe. I'm here right now. I'm alive. I'm breathing. I'm well. And that's thanks to her.

And I think a lot of us look at it as like, I want to get rid of that part. I don't want to look at them. That's what got me into trouble. But the more we resist that, the more it's going to persist. And then they're going to keep coming out and saying, hey, remember me? I'm still hurting. So if we can turn to those parts, and that's really why a lot of people don't want to do the work. It's really painful. It's hard to look back and say, oh, wow, yeah, that's what I went through. And I look at photos of Little Me. That's like a great way to reconnect with your little. And I cry every time I see it because I can't fathom why anybody would hurt her.

But what I do know is I'm not going to hurt her ever again. And I'm not going to let anyone get next to her. And that includes anyone I date, that includes relationships, that includes colleagues, that includes everything in my life. And I know that if I do and something happens, I'm the adult and I have my back and I will protect her in a way that no one did. That's so powerful. I love hearing that. So so thankful to hear your strength and courage through all. It's really inspiring. And I hope, I really hope everyone who's listening and watching right now. We know it's tough to do the work and it, you know, it's heartbreaking sometimes to do the work. But breaking it open is far more likely to create a breakthrough right now than avoiding it. What are the signs of an emotionally unavailable person? somebody who's emotionally and available is going to consistently buoy conversations back to shallow. So it noticed that you're like, I can't seem to have any depth with them. They just keep bringing it back to that.

That's the first thing with an emotionally and available person. The second thing, they shy away from any conversations of commitment. If you even ask of like, do you want to do something on Saturday, they really struggle. They struggle to let you in. And so that's where we say everything is shallow. There's a lot of like, and so really what I see is like one of my friends is dating a guy, It's so classic, right? They'll hook up. They have a great night. She won't hear from him for days. And the minute she brings anything up to him, it's just got to go. Can't talk about this.

Sorry, I don't want to do that. I'm uncomfortable. Now, a lot of people would look and say, well, if you wanted to, he must just not want her bad enough. But what we have to look at his capacity. Because in our brain, want and do are two different parts of our brain. So I can want a lot of thing. I'm going to be a millionaire. I'm not. Is that because I don't want it bad enough? No, like there's other things along the way. But somebody that's emotionally unavailable, what we have to look and say is, it doesn't mean they're a bad person. But what that means is that they can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves. And if that person is saying, emotions are scary, I don't want to be vulnerable. That makes me uncomfortable. Then how do you think they're going to hold your space? How do you think they're going to be able to show up? Because a lot of people look and say, oh, come on, it's just a relationship. Why won't you commit to me? Well, what comes with commitment. Commitment comes with having to be accountable to somebody else's emotions and feelings. You're both that you're married. I'm in a relationship. You know, being committed to somebody is more than just you go to the movies or you go to the park together. That's holding space. That's learning to regulate. That's learning to co-exist with somebody else. And if somebody's not in that space, my partner, he lost his sister of three years ago before we met.

She took her own life, unfortunately. And he really struggled for that year to open up to anybody because he was in so much pain. Now, is that because he didn't want to? Absolutely not. But he was emotionally and available because he couldn't hold the capacity for his own emotions. How is he going to hold it for anybody else? That's why they're shallow and they don't really go deep because it feels very scary. And for a lot of people that are emotionally unavailable, it doesn't really matter the attachment style. Here's the thing that people hate. A lot of people like to say that the avoidance are the emotionally unavailable. And while they might be, so are the anxious. Anxious people are also emotionally unavailable? Because they're not actually understanding what's coming up for them.

They're focused on the other person. So when we outsource, then are we being in touch with our own emotions? Are we able to say, I feel this and this is how this impacted me? For most people, they can't. And so I think what we have to look at is, is there a discomfort with depth, with emotionality and with going there? That's the first step that you're going to tell. And my suggestion would be, please don't try to change them. That is something that that person will do when they're ready and they have the capacity to do it.

But you coming into their life isn't going to be what changes it. And that's the reality. And I think that's almost what upsets us more sometimes because we go, wait, they have the potential for it. They just don't have the capacity for me. so I'm going to be the one to open up that capacity or if they really like me, they'll get that capacity and it annoys us more.

So it's frustrating because when someone just, when we believe that someone just isn't that person, it's okay, but when we believe they are that person, they have the ability, but they don't have the capacity, right? If someone doesn't have the ability to be empathetic or understanding, we're like, okay, they don't have the ability. But when you're like, it's a capacity issue, like, oh, if they love me enough, they'll have it.

What do you do then? You accept it that they might not. And that's the reality. If there's somebody that's growth-minded and says, like, my partner and I, we're in therapy because he is a thousand percent in of like, I want to work through this. I don't want to be emotionally unavailable. I don't want to be avoiding. He's like, I want to be secure.

I want to show up for you as the man you deserve. I didn't change. I didn't make him do that. I told him from the beginning, if you don't let me in, I can't continue doing this. And I set boundaries. And that's what's important is if you meet somebody and they're saying, like I had one guy and he said, oh, you know I'm emotionally unavailable. And I said, yeah, so get out of my house.

I was done with him. Done. Because every time I'd go and say, hey, I need to hold you accountable. You said you were going to do this and you didn't. God, don't you have your own life? Why are you deflecting this on to me? You're not taking accountability for what you did. Now, I could have sat and said maybe one day, maybe one day.

I'm not betting on potential because my dad never changed. So it makes me think these people will. It didn't matter how much I loved my father. It didn't matter how much I showed up for him. It didn't matter how much my mother. It didn't matter what she did for him. It didn't change who he was because that's not how this works. And so I would say, if you're dating somebody emotionally unavailable who is growth-minded and saying, I'm willing to do the work, Chef's Kiss.

All right, continue on and see if they have the capacity. And they might not. That's a very real reality. They could do all this work and you can still say, but I need more. But oftentimes it's not that I need more than you. I need more of you. And that's a really big discerning distinction because if I need more than you, I'm shit out of luck. But if I need more of you, we have something that we can work with if they're willing to do the same.

So good. Yeah. I love that. You can't love someone into change. You can only love them as they change. And I think that's the mix-up where we think, if I love this person enough, they will change. No, they won't.

They will stay exactly the same. You can only love them as they decide to change if they want to. And chances are if they're not showing you, and by the way, most people are telling us the truth. Oh, yeah. Most people are already saying, like, you know what I'm like. You know I'm not ready for a relationship. you know, you know I don't really think that way.

You know I'm not into this. People are already telling us, but we ignore it. We just don't want to believe them because we secretly are wishing, wanting, waiting, hoping that something will miraculously, or we think we see a spark of it within them. We think we see a glimpse of it within them because they show it to us once every 90 days. Right. And we hold on to that once every 90 days ago, but that's who they really are. It's like situation chips, right? When anybody people are in situationships, it's like, so which one are you out of the bunch?

Are you the one with commitment issues or you're the one that's insecure? Because how do we get into that dynamic? How do we get into the emotionally unavailable dynamic with people? Because we're not taking up space. Because one person is saying, I'm going to play the cool guy or girl. I'm not going to have any needs. I'll be the two-dimensional. And that's why the nice guy and the nice girl finished last, because that's all they have.

For me, I find it so sexy when someone tells me no. And not in the like, just to say it. I find it really sexy if I say, I really like this. Oh, I actually don't. Right? And you're like, tell me more. What don't you love about it? What was your experience? How did that land on you? Versus whatever you like, I like. And that's just like not really a place that you want to be. But I think when we were talking emotionally and available, to your point, people are pretty honest. And I think, I'll say this. I used to date the emotionally and available people because that was my baseline. I knew how to keep myself safe. I knew how to perform. I knew how to

try to be the fixer. I knew how to project onto them all the things that I wanted them to be. And that's why my mama would say, what if or what is, right? What do we live? looking at here. Now that I'm in a healthy relationship, I got to say, you know when someone's into you when they like you. This person is going to call you. They're going to have conversations. If you come to them with something, they work with you through it because it's not about, like, I'm not a fan of the don't go to bed angry. Go to bed angry with a plan to talk in the morning because we need to have the rupture, but regulate to have the repair. And I find that with the emotionally unavailable and then with the other dynamic, because if you're secure, you don't

entertain emotionally unavailable because you know you deserve more. And if you don't demand it, who's going to? Versus if you're insecure and you're like, this is all I can get, there's nothing else, and you're convincing yourself and you're translating crumbs into a meal when you deserve the entire loaf, not just a morsel of what they're giving. And like you said, you can't love someone into changing. And that's the reality. Love isn't enough. I wish. Oh boy, I wish you, I wish all we had to do is just love somebody. But if that was the case, my mother would have changed my father. She did everything. She literally would have morphed herself into a pretzel. And he still said, but you're not baked enough for me.

Because when someone just doesn't have that, nothing I do will change that except walking away because that's for me. And I'm not a fan of walk away no matter what. I think we're in a time where everything is, I don't like this, so leave. I don't like that you say this, I'm going to go. You don't say what I want, so I'm going to leave.

No, no, no, no. That's just rigidity. But what I am saying is, if I'm not seeing progress and if I'm not seeing that this person has any kind of depth that we can get there, I'm not going to continue to waste my time. It didn't work in childhood.

It's not going to work now. Yeah, and an awareness themselves without your help. Right. And you as well. I think that's what you're really seeing as well. That isn't rigidity is, oh, I'm willing to change too. I can see my part in this. I can see my little trauma, big trauma coming through.

I can see my past coming through. And I see how that triggers that person. But then I also see, I think that's where we're missing where both people have to hold their hands up and go, I'm accountable. I remember I came from. from a relationship of my mom when my birthdays were really important. And I looked forward to that because my mom always made my birthday feel really valuable. And when I met my wife, which I only discovered afterwards, was in her family, birthdays were not important. It was always about quality

time, no matter what day it was. So we come from two totally different worlds. And this sounds like a really basic thing, but they're so hardwired. And so when it was my birthday and she wouldn't make a big deal out of it, I would see that as you don't love me. And her take was like, but we spend so much quality time together all the time, why would I have to make a big deal on your birthday? And it sounds like, again, it sounds so, so insignificant, but it took two things. One was me recognizing that the only reason, going back to your example, the only reason that I think my birthday is important, because that's how my mom loved me. It's not because I came up with that or I really think birthdays are that important. And at the same time, for her,

to realize that maybe she's never thought about whether a birthday is important or not. And maybe if her partner wants it, then maybe there's some truth in that. But she's just accepting the world she comes from. And I think we often end up in a relationship with someone else, only continuing to live in a world that someone else made for us. Right. And so now you're in a new world, living in your old world, designed by a parent or a friend or a sibling or a caretaker who you didn't even question what world they were building for

you. and you're still holding on to it because it feels so familiar. Your lived experiences and everyone else is, right? And that's what you're saying. And it's funny, birthdays mean a lot to me for the exact opposite because no one made them important for me. My mom was the only thing, God, I remember, this is just to show you, like, how little things can add up.

I was nine, and this was when my dad, he would not buy us anything. He used money as a means of control. And so he would have his girlfriends that he had, and they would come and go, oh, your dad didn't buy you this? And I would just cry being like, no, my father won't give me, like anything to go buy at school. So no, he didn't buy me that. And my mom saved up money and she took me to Ross. And she said, you can buy anything you want. And I remember going through the aisles and picking all these things. And then she was behind me, putting things back because she knew she couldn't

afford it. But she never let me know that. And so when we got to the register and she bought me like a pink dress I really wanted. And I remember when we left, she said, just don't tell your siblings, I bought this for you. And I didn't understand it at the time. And now I understand. and what she had to go through to save up money for like two months. Every time my dad would give her a couple, she would put it in her pocket because she knew I deserved something that day. And she took me to Ross. She spent $20 on a dress.

But that made me feel like a million bucks. And so when I met my partner and I would say these means a lot to me, when he dismissed it, that was triggering for me. And to your point, how was he going to know? I don't expect him to read my mind. I don't need him to just anticipate my needs. There's no one in the planet that's going to do that, not even yourself. But when I communicated that and then we talked about it, now every year he makes sure it's special for me, even though he doesn't care about it.

But that's part of that is that I can meet and you can meet and we go and we talk and we converse and we share. But what's the real root of that is being vulnerable. And people are scared to be vulnerable because if I'm vulnerable with you, you could reject me. And if you reject me, that's the same wound I'm running away from. But that's the key to a beautiful and healthy relationship is you have to have the vulnerability to be able to say, well, this means something to me. And can I tell you why? Because how would he know if I didn't share the story of my mom, why this means so much to me?

Or to your point, if you didn't tell Radia about your mom, she would have no idea and just think, why is he being so dramatic? But it's a beautiful way to let someone into your life, and that's emotional availability, is when somebody wants you to understand where they're coming from, that's them trying to welcome you in their life. boundaries and communication, don't keep them out. They're actually trying to keep you in their life, and we have to be able to read that and understand other people's lived experience. I'm so thankful that you've done so much work, because I'm just listening to you going,

wow, like there's so much depth in everything you're saying, and I can see now that it comes from such a deep-lived experience and also not letting that become your paintbrush for the future, but almost washing the paintbrush before you start painting. That's kind of like the feeling. It's like if you only paint with the paintbrush that is your past, you only have those colors to paint with. And then it's limited. And when I'm listening to you and thinking about my own experience as well,

I'm thinking, yeah, we're just washing that paintbrush off, choosing the colors you want to choose. You guys wouldn't, I would imagine you would not be this far in your marriage if that didn't come with tons of conversations, hard conversations. I've had conversations with Ryan where I'm like, is this it? Like, are we, did we get to the end of the road? And you're, no, no, we didn't. Keep going.

But it's necessary. Because I, for me, if we're not growing and evolving, what's the point? What is the point? What's the point of both of us having a podcast if we're not helping people grow? You can change. You can evolve. But God damn, you got to do some work. And you have got to commit.

What's the difference between me, you and anybody that's listening? The choices we make. That is the only difference. I came from nothing. You came from, we both come from nothing. No one had a silver spoon in their hands. Okay, now go off in the. world, but the choices we make are what's going to change that. And you can either have the life

you want or you can live the life you have. You get to choose. And it is a choice. It's the same with I can't move on from them. I, they're the love of my life. I don't know how. No, you're choosing to stay stuck. Own that. And then you can do because when you take radical accountability of your life and I had to do that. Now, I'm not saying you take accountability of everything that happens in your life, right? If someone treats you poorly, it's not about, oh, there's something wrong with me. But it's about saying, but what did I allow? Because you start to look, I want you to look, at anybody that's listening, look at your friends, look at your family, look at your partners, look at everyone in your life. And if you don't like any of them, that starts and stops with you,

because you're allowing them in your life. They didn't force their way in there. And now you get to choose who stays. And it starts there. And that's a great reflection. Everyone can do that right now and get really, really clear on that. What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn that it's earned? That it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love, Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boy Sober podcast, and each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle. I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed. The thing about romantic fiction, I would say more than any other genre of culture is that it's always put women first.

My marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off. the behavior started to feel different. This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. I'm like, I would love to not hate the man I'm sleeping with. I don't know what that's about. Listen to Boy Sober on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What do you do in the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins. And if you can hear me is we're calling. Culture meets the soul, a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks, and we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff, identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore,

loss that changes you, purpose when success isn't enough, peace when your mind won't slow down, faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wali. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early.

Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection.

We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Serena, do you believe in right person wrong time? I don't. I think what makes someone right is that they're in your life at the right time. Because for me, I believe that there are people in your life that maybe you met them at a time that didn't work for you. but I don't believe in holding on to people just because of timing. Now, I think timing is

incredibly important. I think timing and proximity mean way more than love because if I'm not at the right place at the right time, it's going to be hard. But I don't believe in holding on to people. If they're right for you, they'll come back organically and naturally, but you don't need to hold onto it. And I think when we say that, we grip on and say, but that's the person for me and then you miss out on all the doors that are opening because you're staring at the window that's closed. I'm with you on that. I don't challenge you either. I just, think like you can meet someone that you like a lot at the wrong time. That doesn't, that's the definition of they're not the right person. And so it's not that you won't meet someone who's amazing or

you're in a bad point in your life or the opposite where you're in a great point in your life ready for the most amazing person and they're not ready and that doesn't make them the right person. And like you said, it doesn't mean they can't be the right person one day. But yeah, it isn't the thing right now. But I think sometimes we tell these things to ourselves because they make us feel special and better and... We love bumper sticker slogans. Our brain loves them. That's why, if they like you, know, if not, you'll be confused.

No, dating's really confusing. I don't know who said that, right? Dating is really weird. There's a lot of confusion. If you wanted to, he would. We already went over that. Same, right person, wrong time. Because what happens is when you chalk people up to 140 characters or less, you just slap a bumper

sticker and call it a day, but we are such nuanced creatures. We are so complex. We can't be chalked up to just a saying because then that's insinuating all of us are the same. And I'm fairly certain a lot of us are different. And so I think what makes somebody that they're right, if I had met Ryan when his sister passed, we would never have been together. Now, that doesn't mean that in the past, like I'm sure you and I have gone on probably dates that that are not your wife, not your partner, they're like, man, that was amazing. That doesn't discredit the connection that you have.

And that doesn't mean that your partner is not. It's a different connection. And we have to be okay to know that you're right. If this person's not for me, and not to mention, what makes us want them even more is that usually they don't want us because that is going to go into, I have to prove it. let me earn it. I can get them. And we go right back into the wounds instead of saying, thank you so much, I'm going to move on with my life. When I did, I held on to a guy. I met my partner four months later after I let him go. Because I said, right person, wrong time, you're just not for me. And I'm glad I didn't. Yeah. Talking about dating being confusing,

I want to talk about texting in dating, because you're a pro at this. That's my thing. Not the techniques to seduce people or get people, but the reality of being really clear about it. So texting etiquette when dating, I have a few questions for you. Talk to me. If you've only been out with someone one time, is it okay to ghost? It's not my favorite thing to ghost, but I would say we have to depersonalize it. If you've been out with this person once, nobody owes anything. Now I know people are going to scream and say, bad, it's your time and it's this. I would love it if you tell somebody, hey, I'm not interested. But I've seen the other side of the coin. I've seen people lose their marbles.

I've seen people attack. I've had men show up at my house because they somehow figured out where I lived and were upset that I didn't want to see them again. So I would say this. It would be nice if you said that you don't want to see somebody, but if it doesn't happen, don't take it personal, welcome to dating. Okay. They tell you they don't like texting during the day because they're busy at work, but you still get anxious when you don't hear from them. How does someone push through that? Oh, that's our nervous system. That has nothing to do with them. That person clearly communicated. They told you they don't want to text. They let you know that they have a life and they're doing other things and not everybody. I'm so tired of the saying, we all have our phone in our hands. It takes

10 seconds. First of all, it's never just one text. Second of all, that requires bandwidth. I could be on social media scrolling and watching dog videos, which I love to do all day. And I have 25 text messages. I don't have the bandwidth. I will deal with you later. That's not, and that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in you. That doesn't mean I don't like you. But what happens is we go into black and white thinking. If they do this, it's good. If they do this, it's bad. And what we're trying to do is understand the gray. I think if you're getting anxious because somebody hasn't text you back, we need to look at the state and the story that you're in as opposed to that they're the problem, because how else are they showing up? Great take. Okay, I like this one. You're always the one starting

the conversation. Is that a sign you care more or just different communication styles? That might be a sign that you're not giving them space to step in. I've seen that often. Now, if you give the space and you don't hear from this person, you have your answer right there. You were carrying this along. But oftentimes I've had plenty of men contact me and say, this girl text me every single morning, I don't even get a chance to reach out to her. Distance creates desire. It's okay to let that go for a day. And if you can't sit still, that's what we need to work on, not the texting etiquette.

Someone says they're a bad texter. Does someone's texting behavior actually indicate their interest in you? To a certain extent. I think if we see where it starts to show is when they come in at 100, my mom always says, where else are you going to go? When they come in texting every day, calling you all the time, super, super, super communicative. And then you get the crickets and the go. Well, then, yes, there's a shift in behavior.

Something is up. But intrinsically, instinctually, is their texting behavior and engage of their interest? Absolutely not. My partner texts me every other day just to confirm plans. Or I hope you have a great day. Talk to you later. We did not engage. We're three years later.

And here we are. I don't need to text them every day because we have a beautiful relationship. So we need to start to look at what else is there. And if all you have is texting, you don't have a relationship. Yeah. My wife never messages me back. Is she? Till this day, I have to call her.

She's a call person. If I call her, she'll pick up immediately. Same with her. She's happy to talk. If I text her, I'll be waiting for hours and hours and hours. And I'm just aware of that at this point. And she's like, yeah, just call me. She goes, I'll pick up the phone.

If I see her name, I'll pick up the phone. But if you're messaging me, she's the same. She's like, and it's so funny, she sent me a screenshot of some conversation she was having the other day. And I said, it's the 733, unread messages for me. Like, I was like, I just noticed that at the top. And I was cracking up. when she was cracking up, but it's just, yeah, it's like, that's how she likes to go.

And she's told me that many times. Now, I like texting because I don't have time for a call, so I'm the one trying to do that. Same. But then I'm like, but no, she's told me how to get through to it. And she picks up every single time I call it. No matter where she is, what time it is, wherever it is, she'll pick up. Yeah. And it's, yeah, so I can agree more.

Where we have the issue is the story and the narrative that's being created, right? Otherwise, there's no issue. But we've put, texting is a dopamine addiction fuel, the same as a slot. machine. We are waiting. So dopamine is released in anticipation of, not when you get the reward. That's why waiting for the text, where is it, where is it, where is it? And we're like feigning for a fix because that's a drug versus then when you get it, you get the serotonin bump, but then you need more because then there's another text and they wait it and we start to get hypervigilant. They put 10 seconds. What they put a period. They didn't put a smiley face. We try to decode.

And at the end of the day, we're disconnecting. We're not actually connecting because like you said, pick up the phone and have a conversation. And if the person goes, what are you talking about? I'm literally on the subway, dude. I couldn't text you. I created a narrative. That's on me. Versus, hey, thanks for calling. Actually, there is something I'd like to talk to you about.

And you're like, okay. And I said something. Yeah, absolutely. And we observe it wrong. Like, I think sometimes, and I talked about, by the way, this works with colleagues and teams too. 100%. Sometimes our teams are going through an email exchange with someone. And I'm like, I just pick up the phone and just close it.

Like, I promise you will get done so much quicker. Yep. And I've realized that with not just rather with other people on my team where I'm like, and I'm like this sometimes. I don't like making big decisions over a text message. Yeah. Because I feel like it's overcommitting without context. And so I'd rather pick up the phone and say,

hey, these are the three things I'm thinking about. What are you thinking? Oh, these are the three things I'm thinking. Okay, let's make this decision together. And it feels more real. Whereas saying yes or no on a text just feels like high pressure to me because I feel like I'm not giving any context of whether I want to do that or not. Text has no tone.

Yeah. We create so especially in dating, well, if we're going to even talk, you don't know this person. You match with them on a nap. You are creating their tonality. You are creating how they say it, what they say. And oftentimes we do that and how we would do it. So if someone texts and you're like,

he asked how my day is versus these guys just sent out an automated text to 30 women that morning. And we create this whole fantasy basis words on a screen. And then we wonder why we're so upset. Yeah. Yeah, that was so good. Definitely. All right.

And now I've got some scenario-based questions. Okay. So if someone says they don't want anything serious, but keep treating you like a partner, what's really going on? That's why I hate action speak loud in the words. That's the epitome that they don't. Because what that person is saying is, I told you I don't want a relationship. You're still giving me access, so I'm going to take what I have. You have to tell them that you're not willing to allow that. Otherwise, they will keep taking it. Why wouldn't they? Well said. I like it. All right. You've been in countless situationships, none lasting longer than a couple months,

and have yet to move into a serious committed relationship. What could be happening? You're not using your voice. If you're in countless situationships and you're acknowledging that you're in situationships. You're not communicating because what is a situation? It's a relationship without boundaries, without clear communication and without asking for your needs to be met. Start asking for your needs to be it. Start taking up space and then you'll start to see your relationships change. Okay. You went on a date that felt amazing. Everything aligned. They said, let's do this again soon. And then silence. What's going on there? It's entirely possible that in the moment, they did like you. And then they went home and went, actually, you know, and like, I really hate to say it as if I haven't done it.

I've been out on the date going, this person's great. Then you go home going, wait a minute, did he actually say what I thought? He said, or, no, I'm actually, don't really like this. And you just decide, that's why we're dating. And I think what I'm seeing now really big is that we want certainty. I need to know that before I've gone out with you, that you want to date me, you want to be in a relationship, you want to get married, because we don't trust ourselves. If you trust yourself that no matter what you'll be okay, you'll ask the right questions, you'll vet them properly and you'll decide if this works for you. That's what we need to focus on. Got it. Okay. You went on a date with someone.

who is perfect on paper, but there's zero spark. Is there such a thing as the spark, and should you give it another chance? I would have to argue and say, what are you looking for? Because if you're chasing a feeling, you can't be surprised when you don't find it. When you're chasing something that is just momentary, then you're left with a human after. And so if they're perfect on paper, then I think what we need to look and say is, what are you actually looking for? And what is it that? Because that's a cognitive dissonance. I say, I want this. And then these are the people that I date. There's a disconnect. So then I would say, well, then you're chasing a feeling because the spark, as we spoke about earlier, is usually your nervous system trying to tell you to run and sending

blood to your phalanjy so you could get out of there, but they're attractive. If you don't have the spark, that doesn't mean it's bad. What I would look at is, are you interested in topics that they talk about? Do you like what they have to say? Are you intrigued and interested in talking to them? If that's the answer, doesn't matter about the spark. You don't like the person. And that's the differential. They keep saying, I'm just not good at relationships. Should you take that as honesty or a red flag? Both. It is an honest red flag. If somebody is, openly telling you, I'm not good at relationships. My next question would say, but what does that mean? And I would say, no, thank you because I am. It's so interesting as well that I feel like,

I think we all want to feel safe, but it's also making space for others to feel safe enough to be themselves. Exactly. And a lot of the time, I think in the guise of trying to keep ourselves safe, we actually make the other person feel very unsafe because we're like, I don't like when someone does this, I don't like when someone does that, I don't enjoy this, I don't want this. And then that person goes, okay, well, I'm not going to do any of those things now. Because if I tell you that, then you're going to, because you haven't given me the opportunity for us to get to know each other to even deal with that level of space. Does that make sense?

It's like, it's like, I don't even have the space to tell you that I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z because you've just told me that you want someone who's already done the work, who already does therapy, who's healed, who's this. And someone's like, when I was about to tell you that, I'm like dealing with, you know, this challenge over here and I'm in therapy for it, or I've been seeking a therapist. And now they're just scared to tell you. And they're like, yep, okay, cool, got it. Oh, I see it all the time of like, I want a healed person, no more unheeled.

First of all, who is ever healed? I know. That is a journey for life. If this is it for me, this is boring, right? Like, if this is it, if I reached my peak, that's it, right? Like, I'd love more. But we have to stop looking at myopically of either healed or unheeled. We are looking for growth-minded because if somebody is saying, I want to do the work,

I want to invest, I just need help. Great. Then we can support each other through that. But if somebody isn't going to at least take accountability and ownership, of their part in the dynamic and it's a mood point. Yeah. Okay, a few more scenarios. Let's go. You're in the gray area, not officially dating, but not casually either.

How do you have the what are we conversation? You don't ask somebody what it is that you are. You tell them what you want and you see if it aligns. So if you're in the gray area, you say, hey, I'd love to share something with you. I don't know what's happening here. I really like you. I'd love to delete the apps and just focus on you, but I wanted to see how are you feeling about that.

Most people won't do that because they're scared of the answer. But if you genuinely want to know, you got to ask. I love the idea of everything in life of going into it with clearly what you want from it. And then it's so easy to figure out where the other person lands, whereas you're like, hey, let's kind of figure out where this is going and what you want. And they're like, yeah, well, what are you thinking? I like the way it is right now. And your point's like, oh, well, I don't. But then you don't know what to offer and what to say. And then you get stuck and go, oh, I like it too. I'll go with the flow. Yeah, it works for me. It's in every area of life.

Yeah, go with the flow is the worst dating advice. Yes. Where's the flow going? Is there an end game? Like, do we have snacks on the way? Like, where are we going because there is no end game? And so I need clarity, not the fluidity. Because when people say they're going with the flow, what they're really saying is like, I'm not going to commit. Yeah. Okay. You were dating someone, this has happened to too many people I know. You were dating someone who said they weren't ready and six months later, they're in a full relationship but someone else. How do you stop internalizing that I wasn't enough?

That's projection because then what's happening is we're putting our core beliefs. What we have to look and say is maybe they found a partner that was better suited for them. Maybe that person didn't trigger their nervous system. Maybe that person was a safer experience. Maybe you were really like their dad growing up and that just made them and rubbed them the wrong way. Maybe you guys had completely opposing political beliefs. What we have to do is we have to look and say, what are the facts? Because if I say, I wasn't enough, I'm not good enough.

I could all but guarantee if I talked to the other person, they would say, oh, this is nothing to do with that. It's X, Y, and Z. So what I do is, what are the facts to back this thought up? and if I don't have any, okay, then where did I learn this from? Because if it's my insecurity, that's what's really coming up. It is nothing to do with them. Yeah. Your state story strategy piece applies to all of this because, yeah, we start going,

so even if we look for the facts and most people can't think of facts because the hard part about relationships is that everything's so subjective. So you just go to, oh, maybe if I didn't ask for so much, maybe if I wasn't always needing so much, maybe if I didn't always, then they'd still be here. And what you're really just saying is I'm not comfortable with what my actual needs are because you asked for them in the past because you believed you deserved them. And now you're questioning whether you deserve them again. And so it's coming from a place of you feeling you don't deserve those things.

When the reality is even if you got back with them, you'd still want those things in three months time. Nothing changed. Even if you got them back, nothing changed. Nothing changed. But it's really important when we're talking about this. That's why it's like if you're scared to ask for your needs to be met and have this conversation, then what we're seeing is that person probably doesn't have the bandwidth to begin with. And maybe they do and they just haven't had the conversation with them.

But if we're going to look back and say they have something I don't, well, then all we're doing is we're projecting our insecurities. So that has nothing to do with the person. It has everything to do with the story that you created about why they didn't want you. The good news is you can control that. Hey there. This is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions.

Get stronger. Work harder. Fix. What's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience, helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught the name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof,

why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were. It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow. It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay. to ask for help. I'm Mike Dolorotcha, host of Sacred Lessons. This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to

repeat. Here, we slow down. We listen. We learn how vulnerability becomes strength and how healing happens in community, not in isolation. If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you, and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose. Sacred Lessons is your companion on your healing journey. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delo Rocha on America's number one podcast network, IHeart. Follow Sacred Lessons with Mike Delocha and start listening on the free IHeart Radio app today. We brought a bandwidth so many times in this conversation and capacity,

and I think it's such an interesting point because our black and white thinking goes to if they don't want to do this for me, that means they don't love me enough or don't care about me enough. And what you're saying is someone could care or could love or could have certain feelings, but they may not have the bandwidth, whether that's emotional capacity or time or energy or whatever it may be. But our mind goes to, well, no, that's a sign that you don't love me because the right person would have the bandwidth, which in effect is true. The right person will have the bandwidth. The right person will, for sure, but it doesn't mean that they don't care about you. And that's the nuance. I think what I really learned what healing was.

Healing doesn't mean you get rid of the emotions. Healing doesn't mean that you just never feel sad or anxious or anything. What it means is that you learn to live with it. You expand that window of tolerance, so you have the capacity to handle it. So it's not every single time there's an inconvenience you're getting, either you're freaking out or you're crying or you're shutting down. It's like, okay, well, then that we don't have the emotional capacity to be able to hold things, but that's also part of holding two conflicting thoughts.

I can miss someone and also know they're not right for me. I can think you're amazing and also say, this isn't the right relationship for me. I can say that you're limited and also say, but I think that we can make it through. If we can hold the two conflicting thoughts, then what we're actually doing is we're turning our prefrontal cortex on. And oftentimes in dating, when we go from X equals Y equals Z, that's because your brain is trying to actually close the loop by a shortcut. And it's like, I love neuroscience. I think it's fascinating. The more we repeat something, the deeper those neural pathways become.

And I found out something fascinating. It takes 300 repetitions for your body to remember a move. So I need to do squats 300 times for my body to go, okay, this is what I have to do. It takes 3,000 repetitions to create a new neural pathway that you would go down organically. Whoa, I didn't know that. That's a lot. That's cool. So let this be 2,999 left to go of I deserve, I'm worthy, I believe in myself.

Even if you don't, but we got to start somewhere by creating these new neural pathways to be able to hold that space and capacity. Otherwise, you're just going to keep going, this means this. And that myopic black and white, the other fun fact I learned, I love neuroscience. The other fun fact I learned is when we get triggered or dysregulated, your amygdala takes about 10 milliseconds to turn on. It's almost instant. Your prefrontal cortex takes 10 times longer, so 235 milliseconds to turn on into the seconds. That's why people will go straight to, they don't like me, they don't want me, they don't do this.

To your point for us to turn the prefrontal cortex on and go, what are my facts, can I challenge this? That requires a lot of work. So most people go, no, energy save. This happened. This means this. Your brain is a predictive machine. It wants to keep you safe. It's not trying to help you grow. We have to rig the system. Yeah. Wow. I love those. I've never heard either of those. And that's so helpful and only a need to practice more repetition. And it's interesting you said that it's, you said you need 3,000 neural repetitions. And I was thinking 3,000 means if you did something once a day per year, that would take 10 years to change it. And that's why it makes sense that. so many real changes take so much longer than like 30 days and 90 days. And it's like, unless you were saying it to yourself a thousand times a day, which is unlikely. And it's unlikely you'll believe it because your nervous system is like you're gaslighting me. That's not real. So we have to push through that. Like it's very uncomfortable doing the work. That's why most people

don't want to do it. But if you're here because you are, just know that there are other people that are. But you don't need to have the, you don't need to have the bandwidth and capacity if somebody isn't. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last scenario. Before we do a little rapid fire. So the last scenario is you're dating someone who avoids conflict or shuts down when things get tough. How do you determine whether that's workable or a long-term incompatibility? It's having the conversation with them of what are they going to do about it. That's a really reality because if somebody is consistently shutting down, they don't have that. There's a rupture, but there's no repair. Well, then we have to say, in first of all, and see, do they take accountability

of that? Are they trying to do anything about that? Or are they saying, well, that's who I am and this is it because you can absolutely work through that. Maybe they didn't, maybe they learned it in childhood that confrontation means that they're bad until they shut down. And maybe that means that, so that means that they need to go to therapy. They need to understand what came up for them. They have to learn how to be present. I think what we need to learn is we have to look and see if I show up as me, how are they showing up as them? And does that work for me? Because for a lot of people, they're used to being abandoned. They're used to having people go, well, you don't do what I want and I'm out. But maybe they're not used to someone that says, well, I'm here by your side. And if you're

willing to do the work, I'll walk the journey with you. And I think that's a really beautiful place to be in growth and expansion, but two people have to be doing that. And if one person is going to gaslight, deflect, shut down, walk out, do this and go, well, I'm not going to talk about it. I don't know what you're hoping is going to change. Yeah. It's so interesting how we just forget the word mutual. Like it exists for a reason. It's like all good relationships are mutual. We have mutual understanding, we have mutual respect, we have mutual awareness. the word mutual makes everything so simple. And whenever I'm trying to figure out whether I should invest in a relationship with someone or engage with it or where we stand, it's just whether it's

mutual or not. And that over time is much more evident clearly. It may not be in the beginning, for sure, but over time you get really clear on whether there's a mutual level of desire to invest and connect and build. That's why as you do the work, your circle gets smaller, because you start to realize you're here because I benefit. You're here because you need something. you're here because you're bored, you're here for whatever the reasons are, and that's why grief is so large. Because if I don't grieve the ending of things, then I'm not going to people to also create new. If we just constantly try to hold on to somebody all of our lives and say, I'm only okay if I have them, you're never going to actually be able to grow anything else because you're keeping just that plot of land

and even if the flowers are dying. I always use the example. If a house burns down, you can't rebuild it with the ashes. You have to be the phoenix that rises and rebuild it with something more solid and more concrete. And it's okay to let it come crashing down. You get to choose. Sabrina, we're going to end with this rapid fire. So these have to be answered in one sentence maximum. These are a list of some popular cliches, some of which you've mentioned already, but we'll do them again, some of them. And so I want your first response and take to these. Okay. Do you believe if he wanted to, he would? God, I hate that saying. It is myopic. It is not understanding human relationships, and it is keeping people single longer than they need to be. Want and

do are two different parts of the brain. Instead of projecting onto them, because I'll say this, if you wanted to, you would move on and you're not. So it takes two. Okay. Second cliche, so do you agree with there's no good men out there? That is the salience network at play. And the salience network, if I went outside and looked for a green car, all I'm going to see is that. If you don't believe that there are good men, then I could say there's also not good women or not good things. There are amazing people. But if you're not finding them, then we need to start to change the state, the story, and the strategy so that you can have different people. enter your life and you can allow different people in your life.

Agree. 100% agree. The frequency illusion is one of my favorite ideas and how the brain works. And it's fascinating to me how we think it's positive and negative thinking. And it's just noticing. It's just the ability to notice. And if you only think there's bad man out there, you will notice every bad guy out there and you will forget because your brain has selective attention and can only focus on a few things at the same time. And it will ignore the person who opened the door. It will ignore the person who said thank you, it'll ignore the person who smiled because you're focused on all the bad guys out there or bad people. Okay, agree or disagree when you know, you know. I will disagree. And the only reason I say that is I think for some people, a hundred percent

when they know, and for other people, it's a bit longer of a journey because some people need time to open up and it might take a minute for you to be able to explore that. But I think when you know that you don't want that, please listen to that. When you know that you do, please listen to it. but I don't necessarily think everyone has the same journey. Agree or disagree. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Completely disagree. I think people can grow and evolve.

I think once a cheater, if you don't take accountability, you will continue to cheat because we need to understand what led you to do that to begin with. Yeah. And I think so much of that is also you as the individual. Like if you believe that someone's a cheater and will always be a cheetah and you can't get over that, then that relationship naturally won't work. And you're fully entitled to that because you've been through it and you've been through the pain and the hurt.

And so you don't need to lie to yourself. I think that's the problem where that becomes a challenge where you start saying to yourself, that's how I really feel. Like I don't think I'll ever trust this person again. But I think the right thing to do is give them another chance. And then that gets complicated. If you're going to give somebody another chance

after they cheated on you, you have got to make the commitment that you're going to move on. Because it's not fair to hold it over their head. Every time they do something, you don't believe them. You're checking their phone. You're seeing where their location is. If you don't have trust in your relationship, and that's okay. If they broke that trust, you don't have to give it back.

100%. But if you're making the choice to stay in the commitment, then please make the choice together that you're staying in the commitment. Yeah. And I think that's the challenge for that person because you're so conflicted. It's so hard to go through infidelity because you're thinking, well, I do love them and I do believe them and I know who they are. And then at the same time, there's this massive, you know, lack of loyalty and, you know, a breaking of your trust and everything else that comes with it, it's hard to recommit. But yes, you're right. If you are going to, then go all in. Agree or disagree, men are intimidated by strong women. I will disagree. I think there are some men that are. And then there are men like my partner that finds strong women to be

sexy because he was raised by them. So I think we need to stop keeping it as if everybody is one thing and start to understand that one person's lived experience is not everybody else's. Okay, a couple more. Agree or disagree. If it's not a hell yes, it's a no. Again, I disagree. because it's back to it has to be good or this. I'll be honest, it took me six months to be a yes with my partner, and he was a hell yes month one. It's okay to take time. What I will say is if it doesn't get to a hell yes,

then please take it as they know. Okay, agree or disagree? You'll meet someone when you stop looking. That I actually will agree, and here's what I mean by that. Interesting. I didn't think you were going to go there. No, no, let me tell you why. The reason I think it'll happen,

it's not when it happens when you least expect it. It happens when you release control to the outcome and you surrender. that's when I believe it will. When you least expect it is kind of saying, oh, I was at the grocery store, and there they were. I don't think it's that accidental. But I do believe that when you release control to the outcome and you show up saying, well, if this works out, colon, if not, not, you have a higher propensity for it to work out because you're not trying to make something it's not. And that's to me the biggest difference. When I see people, one person that's moved on after a breakup and the other one's stuck on it's because the person that's moved on has acknowledged what it was. And they're not trying to create something it wasn't, versus. versus the other person that's holding onto this fantasy and narrative that very clearly didn't exist. So I think there's nuance to it, but I do believe that when you release control and say, hey, if I'm going to go out and if it doesn't work out, that's okay, that more than when you least expect it, because then that means you're not being intentional and you're not putting in the energy. That's a great recalibration because I was going to challenge you on that.

Yeah, I was like, yeah, I'm not sure about Sabrina. But your recalibration is effective and I agree with that version of it. The nuance. Yeah, the nuance. The nuance works. Because, yeah, when I hear you'll meet someone when you stop looking, I'm like, all right, well, if you stop looking, then you're never going to meet someone. But your point of let me actually go out there, be myself, not put pressure on this, allow it to be what it is, that potentially is going to be better for you and reveal more of that person and yourself. Especially when you go out, like I remember my days, you go out to a bar club, a club, a who's one of my 20?

You go out to something and you're the whole place. You're turning every stone. Are they single? Are they single? Are they single? That's the pressure that we got to release. So the least expected, you know what I'm saying, but it's more about if I can go out and just enjoy and be present, you never know who you'll meet. And it might not be obvious. It could be I met you who has a cousin, who has a brother, who's single, and somehow we connected. Or you posted a friend and that's how it happened to my friend. Her friend posted a guy saying he's single and

they've been together for two years. It happens when we release that control and we say, I'm showing up for me and I'm excited to see who else is here. Yes. All right, last one. Agree or disagree. It should feel effortless with the right person. Wildly disagree. And what I stand is this. It shouldn't be a fight, but what doesn't take work? That's like saying starting a business should be effortless and just flow. You have so many issues. What I want to see is, is there a flow and are we going somewhere as opposed to it should be effortless? And I think what happens is we lie to people by telling them that relationships should be easy and there should be no issues. Relationships are not easy. They take a lot of work, but they're also rewarding.

And I look it as a bank account. Am I in the green? Great, keep going. If I'm in the red, my needs aren't met, I'm constantly depleted. This isn't going anywhere. Well, then that's the issue. It's not that it should be easy. Sabrina, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I did

or anything that you wanted to share that I didn't give you an opportunity to? No, I think you did a pretty dang good job. I think just at the end of the day for anybody that's listening, the main message here is not that you're never going to find anybody or that you're never going to be happy or it's going to take all of this work, But it's really about when you come back home to yourself, then you can show up differently. And the world needs more light. And we have so many people, everyone's trying to dim somebody else's or turn someone else's on.

But I need to make sure that my light is shining as bright as it can so that I can welcome everybody in so that they also feel seen. And I really hope that people could do that to step into their power, to know who they are and how amazing they are as a human being and that anybody would be lucky to have the opportunity with them. And if you don't believe that, go back to square one and let's work on. where you learn that from. Sabrina, I'm going to personally send this episode to so many people. I usually put out on Instagram and YouTube and social media, but there's very few times where I'm like, this is the episode I'm going to be sending to so many people in my life,

because I think you're spot on with so many of these things. I feel like you speak to it in a way that really goes to the root of what people are really struggling with and what's beneath all of this. And I genuinely, genuinely, genuinely, genuinely appreciate your own vulnerability with your own story and background because I do believe that people have avoided that or their memory has protected them from some of those things, not realizing how much it's tripping them up today. And you going there gives them permission to go there.

And so everyone who's been listening and watching whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving to or from work, please share this episode with a friend who's struggling with dating, who's maybe just been broken up with, or maybe he's just trying to figure out this confusing landscape and share on TikTok and Instagram what resonated with you, tag both me and Sabrina. We'd love to see what really connected with you. I love knowing what each and every one of you take away from these episodes. And if you don't already follow Sabrina, make sure you follow her across social media.

I'll be tagging her on all my platforms. Thank you for listening and watching. Sabrina, thank you so much for all your insight, wisdom and work. And I can't wait to have you back on the show. Thank you, Jay. Likewise. Yeah, thank you. If you love this episode, you're going to love my conversation with Matthew.

you Hussie on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships. People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self. Because truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life. What is something you've had to unlearn about love? That it's earned. That I was unworthy of love. That it needs to be forever for it to count. February is the month of love. Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want. I'm Hope Woodard, host of the Boisover podcast, and each week we're looking at love from every angle. Listen to Boy Sober. That's B-O-Y-S-O-B-E-R. On the I-Hart

Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A new year doesn't ask us to become someone new. It invites us back home to ourselves. I'm Mike Delarocha, a host of sacred lessons, a space for men to pause, reflect, and heal. This year, we're talking honestly about mental health, relationships, and the patterns we're ready to release. If you're looking for clarity, connection, and healthier ways to show up in your life, Sacred Lessons is here for you. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delaroach on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. and still feel empty.

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