On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Dave Ramsey ON: Fixing Your Relationship with Money & How to Break the Beliefs Holding You Back From Success

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

Do you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on CalmJay Shetty chats with Dave Ramsey to talk about having a healthy relationship with our finances. Having a lot of money, buying a house, owning expensive cars, living in luxury - many of us dream of having a purposeful and productive life - and we work hard to reach this goal. But it’s never an easy goal to achieve, and more than anything, not many of us can have great financial success.  Dave Ramsey is an eight-time No. 1 national best-selling author, personal finance expert and host of The Ramsey Show, heard by more than 23 million listeners each week. He has appeared on Good Morning America, CBS Mornings, Today Show, Fox News, CNN, Fox Business, and many more. Since 1992, Dave has helped people regain control of their money, build wealth and enhance their lives. He also serves as CEO for the company, Ramsey Solutions.Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/What We Discuss:00:00 Intro02:16 How did it start for Dave Ramsey?06:26 How to start having a healthy relationship with your finances09:51 Stories about loans and debts12:27 Can anyone be a millionaire?15:45 We become who we hang around with18:42 Incorporating spirituality into your finances21:25 Difference between a millionaire and baby steps millionaire27:00 How to become a millionaire?30:38 The ability to delay pleasure is a sign of maturity35:07 Winning does not heal you39:26 Why do we have a fear that wealth will ruin our kids?47:32 Why equal is not fair53:02 Dave on Final FiveEpisode ResourcesDave Ramsey | InstagramDave Ramsey | TwitterDave Ramsey | FacebookDave Ramsey | YouTubeDave Ramsey | BooksRamsey SolutionsThe Ramsey ShowBaby Steps Millionaires: How Ordinary People Built Extraordinary Wealth - and How You Can TooSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey everyone welcome back to on purpose the number one health podcast in the world thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now you know that I'm on a mission to serve you and help you build incredible lives 360 degrees. And one of those things is to focus on areas where I can bring in experts who have incredible insight, research, and years of experience so that I can share that with you. And this person is someone who I've followed for a long time.

He's someone that I've wanted to have on the show for a long time. I feel extremely honored and grateful to introduce our guest today who is none other than Dave Ramsey and eight time number one national best selling author, personal finance expert and host of the Ramsey show, heard by more than 23 million listeners each week. If you have not subscribed already, make sure you do. He's appeared on Good Morning America CBS Mornings, today's show Fox News CNN, Fox Business, and many more. Since 1992, David's helped people regain control of their money, build wealth, and enhance their lives.

He also serves as the CEO for the company Ramsey Solutions. Welcome to the show, Dave Ramsey, and today we're talking about his new book, Baby Steps Millionaires, which I highly recommend you go and grab a copy of, we'll have the link to order it in the caption and in the comments. Dave, welcome to the show. Well, I'm on the J-Shetty show.

This is awesome, man. You're a big deal. Thank you for having me. It's the other way around for me. To me, you're the big deal. It's a, I feel really grateful that you said yes. And, you know, for me supporting my community, having great financial health is a really important part of my mission. And who better, for me, supporting my community, having great financial health

is a really important part of my mission. And who better to go to than you. So, you know, I'm really grateful that I get to connect my community with you. I'm sure many of them are already listens anyway. But Dave, you know, let's, let's start learning a bit more about you and your journey. I want to hear about when Dave wasn't the financial expert that he is. Like, what were your mindsets? What was your relationship like with money when it wasn't where it is today?

I grew up in a household of entrepreneurs and so they taught us that you can do it. All you've got to do is leave the cave, kill something and drag it home. I mean, there's, you can go out there and make something in this world, and the free enterprise system is not broken, and it's tough, it's hard, but you can do it. And so, I believe that, and I still believe it. And I went and got my real estate license when I turned 18, and when I graduated from college, I started buying and selling real estate, and starting from

nothing, I got rich. At least by a kid from any oxenicist standard, I started buying and selling real estate and starting from nothing, I got rich. At least by a kid from any octanecy standard, I ended up with about $4 million for the real estate and a little over a $2 million net, or a little over a million dollar net worth. I was making a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year. Now that's 1982. Twenty thousand bucks a month from the neighborhood I grew up in, that's called rich. And so we were having a blast, but I borrowed too much money,

and the short version of the story is the bank got sold to another bank. They called our notes, we were doing flip this house before Chip and Joanna were born. And so, you know, we, bank called our notes and we spent the next two and a half years

of our life losing everything we owned. We were sued and foreclosed on, and with a brand new baby and a marriage hanging on by a thread, we had the opportunity to start over after bankruptcy. And it was brutal. It was brutal. It was gut-wrenching. It was life-defining. And it was, at the time, the worst thing that had ever happened to me at all, the worst trauma, to not be able to keep your word, to have your integrity just crushed by your stupidity.

And it was a, I come from an honor culture and it's just a horrible thing. And so obviously now 30 years later, I realized it's the best thing that ever happened to me because I learned a whole new way of looking at money. I realized that borrowing money was a bad plan and we've since been able to put lots of data to that and millions of lives to that idea that the idea of if you don't have any payments you've got money and you can build some wealth. And so we began a debt-free life at 28 years old and I'm 62. So it's worked out pretty well. That's incredible, Dave. I mean, you, as you said, you've been talking to people

about their money for 30 years on the Ramsey show. You've given, you know, help so many people over those decades. Are you hearing new financial problems today? Or is it the same ones repeated over and over again? Is there a new challenge, a new issue? Or are we stuck in a similar mindset over the last three decades? There's the problem and then there's the symptom. The symptoms are always new. Bitcoin, I get rich, opportunity, right? That's a new symptom.

There's been all kinds of symptoms pop up over the years that are different. There was a period of time where credit card debt was the most awful thing on the planet. Then there was a period of time where student loans are the most awful thing on the planet. And, you know, the thing that is holding down the middle class thing is crushing families and these kinds of things. And then there was a period of time in 2008 when the mortgages were failing in the real estate market failed. And so we've seen all these things, but they're basically those are all symptoms. And underlying all of that, again, very similar to your insights, is the idea that principles

have been violated. When you violate principles, you're going to get these symptoms. They'll have all kinds of different colors and looks to them, but they're the same root when you violate principles, you're going to get these symptoms. They'll have all kinds of different colors and looks to them, but they're the same root cause. Dave, you've talked about this a lot through your book, through your work, through a number of your books about how we don't really get educated on these ideas in school.

And you must find it shocking that across 30 years that hasn't massively changed. What is it that you think we're missing out on at school? What are the key principles as you were mentioning that you need to learn at school or that you need to learn to start so that you can have a healthy relationship with your finances and money? Well, there's a level of mythology that has been spread about money in our culture that

was spread with an agenda, frankly. If I was a bank, I would teach everyone that they needed a credit score. And the reason I would teach them they needed credit score and the way to get a credit score is to borrow money from me and pay it back to me so that you can raise your score so you can borrow money from me so you can pay it back to me so you can raise your score so you can borrow money from me so you can pay it back to me so you can raise your score. It's a great plan if you're a bank. But then it was put out there that now the FICO score is like biblical truth or something

and it's not. It's a banking program to get people to borrow money. But now, and so what's happened with some financial literacy programs in schools is they're gonna teach you to build your FICO score because that's been accepted now as norm rather than as, rather than actual, well, it's accepted, it's fact, even though it's not a fact.

And so what we've done is what we have, I mean, our antidote would be to say, okay, we're going to teach people to live on a budget and how to do a budget. We're going to teach them to live on less than they make. Concept Congress can't grasp. We're going to teach them to be generous, outlandishly generous. And we're going to teach them to save and invest in the power of compound interest. And these things are agnostic to the banking community. And so we don't have to infiltrate the lending community and the people, the pieces of the financial industry that have a agenda into this curriculum.

But basically, a lot of teachers have been indoctrinated by the culture that this is the way you have to live. You're always going to have a car payment. You have to have a credit card. You can't be a student without a student loan. And then they bring that into the classroom because they personally have been taught this. But when you back it out and say, well, the teaching is within agenda, then you have to stop and go, well, there's a villain in this story. And so instead, we need to be teaching the basic premise of common sense. And the good news is we've actually gotten our high school curriculum in about 48% of the high schools in America so far.

So we're waking up a few people here and there. We're causing a bit of a ruckus, but certainly the banks and those kinds of folks are not happy about that, because we're teaching people not to borrow money. I actually had that experience. So I grew up in a house where my parents never wanted us to be in debt, so I didn't even know what a credit card was quite frankly growing up,

and we only ever used debit cards. And so when I moved to the United States from London and I went to buy a car, they wouldn't give it to me because I didn't have a credit score. Now I had enough money to buy a car, they wouldn't give it to me because I didn't have a credit score. Now I had enough money to buy that car maybe 10, 20 times if I wanted to, but they wouldn't let me because I didn't have the credit score. And so I had to get into this habit of building up

that credit score in the same way. And that was massively different for me because I just never been in that mindset. So when you say that it resonates with me very strongly because I just never been in that mindset. So when you say that, it resonates with me very strongly because I just couldn't imagine ever feeling like I owed people or that I was buying things with money that wasn't mine because of the way I'd been raised around it. I mean, what's the craziest financial situation

that you've ever heard on the show? Like what's something that really blows your mind and you go, even this is crazy for Dave Ramsey. The line that we always use, it's true, is I have a borrow money in 30 years, so I don't have a credit score, mine's undeterminable or zero. And so the joke is, and it's the truth,

if I go down to a local apartment complex and there's a sweet little 26 year old apartment manager that is corporate has told her what to do and they require a FICO score to rent. I can't rent an apartment there. Now I'm a multi millionaire. I can write a check and buy the complex but I can't rent an apartment there.

Now that's just Asinite. That's just ridiculous. And so that illustrates the absurdity of this. As far as the crazy stuff on the show, oh my goodness. I mean, we do three hours a day for 20, for 30 years now. I mean, it's, we've had crazy on parade at times. And the thing I have to try to do is laugh because I've done so many stupid things. I've got a PhD in DUNB. When somebody calls with something stupid, we just laugh together. I mean, I'm not shaming them, but oh my gosh, I mean, people with just, I mean, I had a guy with a million dollars in credit card that one time.

How do you do that? I mean, that was like a full-time job to pull that off. And we've had lots of people with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt. And they just get themselves in all kinds of stuff. And so, you know, you get stupid on steroids and it just explodes, it gets exponential. And it's really, you know, it's crazy humorous because it's so absurd. But, you know, also what you're talking to is just sad because they're completely trapped. And how am I going to get this, this young? It's in one of our

documentaries. It's got a million in student loan debt. And how am I going to help him get out of that? Oh, it's just heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean, those stories, as you said, like I love that you create this open, welcoming space for people to feel heard, feel seen. And like you said, we've we've all made mistakes. But then at the same time, I really value how you give very specific strategic advice for people to get out of those places. Now, your new book, Baby Steps Millionaire, like what I really love about it and what I

want to do on this podcast is I want to kind of touch on each of the chapters because whenever someone has a book out, and I deeply value books, books have changed my life, I believe they're absolutely transformative. They start incredible journeys. I believe yours is gonna do this for so many people it already has. But with this book, your first chapter is called, Can anyone be a millionaire?

And I think a lot of people grow up with the feeling that they will never be one. They're not planning for that and they don't even think about that. I would say that I grew up with that mindset too, because of the family that I was raised in and the people I was raised around. Tell us a bit about that question and why you take the approach you do to that answering that question. Well, it's an important place to start because it's one of the reasons we

wrote the book. We've got a group of people in America, I call them hope-steelers, who are saying that it's impossible to win now. It's impossible to win. There's too many systemic problems. There's too many things that are broken in the culture and in the economy that the little – it's the ultimate line, the little man can't get ahead. Thing. And yet I kept running into millionaires everywhere who were first generation. They

started with nothing. They did not inherit their money. And then I started running into them that have followed our baby steps. That's why we named it baby steps millionaires that became millionaires. And so I thought, I've got this, all this data and anecdotal evidence both on one side that it is possible. And then I've got these hope steeters out here telling people they can't do it and stealing their hope. And so I thought, well, you know, the first thing we got to do is we have to fix that because it's the old Henry Ford line.

If you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right. And so, you know, you have to, and if I think I can be in the NBA, I'm wrong. I can't, okay? There's not a chance. I don't have the physical skills, I'm an old guy with a pop belly, it's not happening, right? So that's ridiculous, but when it comes to over time,

can I have a successful marriage, even though maybe in your past, there's not one in your family tree. Over time, can I raise good kids, Even though in most of your family tree, no one turns out, can you break that chain? And if you don't believe you, can you won't take the steps to do the hard work to be successful in that area, that compartment, that department of your life? And money's no exception to that. And money's particularly weird in the spiritual in this area of belief, because it will run from you.

You can't catch it. If you don't believe, because you won't do the sacrificial things, you won't live like no one else so that later you can live and give like no one else. There's no reason a farmer would ever go out and toil in the sun and plow the field and get the stumps out and the rocks out

and then put corn in the ground if he didn't think corn was gonna come up after he did that. That would be absurd. Only a crazy person would do something that they don't think is gonna turn out. And so you have to believe first. And so what we try to do is we try to bring an emotional behavior, data of other people and math

and any kind of a lens I can get you to look through to make you believe that you can do it. I know you can do it, but I've got to convince you you can do it before we can move into the tactical steps. Yeah, and whatever some of those, what would you say are the mindsets, or the traps that keep people broke where you are having to convince people that they can?

What are those things that keep us in that mindset? I think we've become number one who we hang around with. There's not any question about that. So you have to be careful. And I'm not talking about being snobbish to someone. We're not, I'm nice to anybody. I'll talk to anybody about anything. I'm happy.

But I'm talking about your crew, the people that are your inner circle. Who do you hang with? Your income is going to approximate theirs over time, your physical condition, if they're all overweight, you're gonna be overweight, if they take care of their bodies, you're gonna take care of your body, if they have good marriages, you're gonna have good marriage, you're going to become who you hang around with,

you even gonna have an accent like they do, you know? And you're gonna read the books that they read. And so, you, number one, you need to get yourself in a community of people who are achievers, who believe it can be done, who understand it's tough, and I'll encourage you when you're having a hard one. I mean, some of us have had a hard couple of years here, a lot of us have, you know. And so you've got to have guys and gals in your corner that say, go, champ, you got this,

you can do it. I got your back, man. And so that's so much different than growing up in a neighborhood where my parents were saying you can do this, but a lot of the kids I ran around with their parents were saying well the little man can't get ahead You're always gonna have a car payment You're stuck people like us You know people that have a southern accent their hillbillies and rednecks we don't get ahead We just we just just, we just,

you know, give them middle fingers salute to the man and we move on. And you can do that from any racial background, any cultural background. There's a group of people that declare themselves stuck. Then there's also a group of people within that same community and that same tribe. It's a smaller group that declare that it's possible to be free. It's possible to prosper. It's possible. It's victims or victors. And the neat thing is that once you begin to kind of get that inside of you, anyone can

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you get 15% off an annual membership. Go to masterclass.com forward slash on-purpose now. That's masterclass.com forward slash on-purpose for 15% off masterclass. I think you're spot on, I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, I know what that feels like because that's the culture I grew up in. I grew up around that culture that didn't believe

and that often saw money as evil. Or we always believe that people who had money must have done something sketchy to get it. Or they weren't really living a life of integrity. And so that was the mindset that was brought up for a long, long time that had to be massively unlearned and unraveled. And I wish I had you at that time.

I didn't. But, you know, I'm glad that we do today. I think you mentioned spiritual and belief. And what I really appreciate it about the book is that the book is filled with knowledge about how to handle your finances. But at the same time, it has Bible verses that can enlighten the readers too. And I wanted to ask you that why did you think it was important to talk about the Bible and the Word of God as well as talking about finances?

Like, what was the reasoning behind that? I was fascinated by that. Hey, it's Debbie Brown. And my podcast deeply well is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your journey. From guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care, trauma, psychology, spirituality, astrology, and even intimacy. Here's where you'll pick up the

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Yeah, that's always a... Sometimes it's off-putting for some folks, obviously. And so I try not to be over the top. It's not a Christian manual on finance, but the books of wisdom in particular, the Proverbs, can be applied regardless of your faith, regardless of your background or your belief system. Wisdom's wisdom. If Ben Franklin said something, it's okay.

You can kind of look at that. I think that's possible, right? He's not in the Bible, but I mean, you should have said it. But what we've discovered about personal finance, and I discovered this years and years ago, the hard way, I kept when I was doing counseling and coaching with people, when I very first started, I would go in and fix all of their budget and negotiate with their creditors, a set of payments that would fit within their income. And they were about to file bankruptcy, but we stopped their foreclosure. We got them on a plan with their bank. It they were about to file bankruptcy, but we stopped their foreclosure.

We got them on a plan with their bank. It right on the edge, we pulled them back from the edge and said, okay, now work this plan. And then I would see them six weeks later, and say, how's the plan going? We filed bankruptcy. What? I didn't 90 hours of work to get that to where it would do.

What do you mean you filed bankruptcy? And I started realizing it wasn't math. Math wasn't the problem. The problem with my money is the guy I shave with. If I can get that guy to behave, he can be skinny and rich. Oh my gosh, he's a problem. And so we start realizing personal finances,

80% behavior, only 20% head knowledge. And behavior is a spiritual thing. I'm an evangelical Christian, so for me, I immediately gravitate to the Bible as a spiritual instruction, and there's 2,500 scriptures dealing with money. So whether you're a Christian or not, doesn't matter to me, the reason I'm bringing that up is,

it's an indication of, this is a set or not, doesn't matter to me. The reason I'm bringing that up is, it's an indication of this is a set of behaviors and a set of views, a set of beliefs, a spiritual walk that influences your behavior and your behavior creates your outcome. It's everybody's trying to fix their finances with a math formula. And if you were doing math, you wouldn't be in credit card debt.

Yeah, well said, and I'm so happy that you do that as well. I know, you know, from my work, the traditions I studied, spiritual traditions, are such big inspirations to me, and I find so much validity and timelessness in how they apply to today's modern day challenges. Dave, chapter two and chapter three talk about what a baby steps millionaire is and how to become one. Can you define to us the difference between a millionaire and a baby steps millionaire? Because I think this is something that a lot of people

struggle with. Well, first it's good to just say, the definition of a millionaire is not a Dave Ramsey definition. This is an accounting definition. Personal finance has been taught for decades before I was born. This is a math formula. It's a very simple formula. Assets minus liabilities equals net worth. What you own minus what you owe equals your net worth. When your net

worth is one million dollars or greater, when what you own minus what you owe is one may integrate your a millionaire. Well, I don't feel like a millionaire. It's not a feeling. I don't believe anybody ought to be a millionaire. It's not a moral construct. I don't think that's enough. It might not be, but it's still a million.

It's still what's there. This is a math formula. And when you reach that, the way you're a billionaire, a thousand million, is if your assets minus your liabilities, it's not your income. You can make a million dollars a year and not be a millionaire. You can make thirty thousand dollars a year and be a millionaire. So it's a net worth balance sheet transaction, it's an accounting function, it's not up for negotiation. Now we can discuss all kinds of things about what a million is and whether it's enough and the moral construct around it, that's a fair discussion to have, but first you got

to admit and just say, that is a millionaire. I just don't feel it. I don't care. You are a millionaire. You know, I talked to a guy today on my show. He just paid off his house and it's worth $900,000 and it's going way up in value. He's out of Denver and the market's shot way up and he goes, it doesn't, I don't feel like a millionaire because he got several hundred thousand in his 401k. So he's got a net worth of a million dollars. And I said,

it's not a feeling because I don't feel like I earned it. It doesn't matter. I don't care where you got it. It's still a million. It's still, that's, you got to really get back to that. So once we do that, then we say, all right, now then where do millionaires come from? And several years ago, we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America. My friend Tom Stanley, who's passed away now, did a book in 1992 called the Millionaire Next Door. And he studied millionaires in 1992, many years ago. And his sample size in the research was 750 millionaires. And the people who did not like the conclusions of his study used the sample size to criticize and say it wasn't valid. Now, those of us that know statistics know that's a valid sample size. That, you know, that. That's a, it fits the numbers.

But so we decided as a PR part of the study to do 7,500 millionaires. 10 times what was necessary to be statistically significant. 750 is statistically significant. And then we just went overboard and ended up doing 10,167 before we were done. So we've done the largest study, and here's what we found. 79% of America's millionaires.

Air tight research, data, not a feeling, not a political agenda, not your broke brother-in-law's opinion at Thanksgiving, not how he feels about rich people. None of this data, 79% inherited precisely zero. Wow. 8 out of 10. 5% more inherited a small amount, like $1500 or $5,000. Mathematically, could not have possibly made them a millionaire. Another 5% inherited substantial money like $100,000, $200,000 after they were already millionaires. So 5 and 5 and 79, we're at 89%, 9 out of 10 of America's millionaires did not become millionaires because of an inheritance. Wow. So that's a millionaire.

And I'm running into these guys everywhere in 30 years of doing this. And it's screaming at me, this is possible. And they're not rocket scientists, they're not rock stars, they're not 1% of the millionaires in America, you would know their name, meaning that they're on TV or they're a rock star, or they're an NBA or MLB or something.

You know, they're in that. But 1%, 99% are a teacher and a policeman, you know, and there are, number one category, our number one career was engineer. So then we started hearing from people, I've been teaching this stuff for 30 years, getting people out of debt, getting them on a budget so that they can invest in their 401K so they can pay off their house, and they were following our baby steps in becoming millionaires. So we had first generation millionaires, every day millionaires we called them.

And then we had millionaires that had become millionaires following our process. And that process is called the baby steps. So that's the, it's a nuanced subset of what a millionaire is. Too much talk, but that's the deal. Not too much talk at all, that was brilliant. I'm so glad you went there, not too much talk at all.

I think, you know, that's fascinating. First of all, the fact that you did this study, second of all, I think when you hear that, everyone's just surprised because you just assume that everyone is a millionaire, is either a tech founder or a celebrity or a musician, and you know, I think we have perceptions, as you rightly said earlier around wealth.

What are some of those key steps? If someone's in their 20s right now or in their 30s, and they're like, I wanna be a baby steps millionaire, I don't wanna walk through the seven steps because I know they're beautifully laid out in the book. What are some of the first things that they need to start thinking about, Dave? Let's go back to and say out loud, the tech person

or whatever, the stuff we're teaching will not make you a billionaire. It won't do it. Mathematically, it won't. These were millionaires, one to ten million dollars worth of net worth. Okay. And so these are, that's a lot of money, but it's not a billion. These people don't have private jets.

They don't have six houses. They don't have six houses. They don't have a Lamborghini. Those are billionaires that have that. And a lot of those are people that are household names, the gates or the buffets or whatever, that kind of thing. But that's a different world. In this world, the way to get the first one to 10 million ends up being 80% of them, a little about 83% of them had two things that showed up almost every time.

Number one, they funded their 401K in good mutual funds and their Roth IRAs and good mutual funds over an extended period of time 12 to 17 years. That's not that long, but that was long. It's longer than five minutes, and it's not, get rich quick. It's the towardest, not the hair. So 12 to 17 years, during that time, the average millionaire paid off their home in 10.2 years.

And so what we've got is, we've got a guy that's, our gal that's got a million five net worth, and they, of it as as a in there is a $500,000 paid for home and a million dollars in their retirement accounts. And that's almost all it was those two things, you know, the power of compound interest building up your merge or building up your mutual funds, winning in your 401k and just steady, steady, steady, never stopping, never panicking when the market's down, just steady, steady, steady, never stopping, never panicking when the market's down. Just steady, steady, steady, steady.

Just keep doing it, just keep doing it, just keep, it's boring. It's not sexy at all. You're not going to be on the cover of Fast Company magazine, you know? Paying off your mortgage, nobody knows you did it. It's just kind of, but here you sitting with a paid for house and a million bucks, I think you're going to be okay. So that's what most of them did. A few of them were farm millionaires, large enough to be to mention here, meaning that they

not inherited, but they were a farmer that bought land, and then they bought more land, and then they bought more land, and that land in and of itself became worth over a million dollars. That wasn't that unusual. We saw several of those as well. But what we discovered was process people are the ones that did this, whether they were baby steps millionaires or just millionaires. And so the number one career was engineer. Number two was accountant. Number three was teacher. Number three was teacher. Number four was an executive and number five was a lawyer. MDs didn't even make the top five. Medical doctors made number six.

Now, if you count even the MDs, if you count everyone, that's okay. Engineer, accountant, teacher, executive, and lawyer. Every one of those are systems people. They believe in a set of principles and when you follow those principles, you get result. As you sow, sow, show you reap. If you plant corn, don't be shocked corn comes up. And every one of those. It's a cause and effect world that they live in. They believe in systems. They believe in processes. Figure out the system, work the system. You build a bridge this way, it stays up. You do a lesson plan this way, the student learns. You know, every one of, you

know, there's a, you follow a set of decorum and laws and processes in court or the judge puts you in jail for contempt. You have to. And so all of these are process people. So it turns out it's a process. You speak with me, really brilliant. It's not sexy, it's not quick,

and it's not what it looks like on Instagram and social media in the pictures. I feel like half the battle is building that discipline muscle, that habit, that pattern of consistent focus. What is taking us away from that? How do we build that muscle? Because it sounds like to me that that's what's blocking us. We want it to be sexy.

We want it to be fast. We want it to look a certain way, and you're like, wait, wait, wait, it doesn't look like that at all. You know, I think it's disturbing. The wonderful things about social media are obvious, the wonderful things about the internet are obvious. We're able to do this interview this way. It's obvious that it's a fabulous convenience

and everything. The downside is is that we're creating generations now, even up into my old generation of people who have the attention span of a nat. I mean, they can't stick with anything. And in order to do something of greatness, it requires a steady application over a period of time. The old days of a craftsman going through years of apprenticeship in order to be world class at something. Now we want to just snap our fingers and instantaneously be able to do this because we carry this magic wand around in our hand that if we push stuff, push a button, stuff shows

up on our porch, I mean, it's magic. And anything we want, you can do anything you want on this thing, very, very quickly. You can't even have a good argument because you can get the answer to the problem. We used to sit around and have fights at dinner and our family and argue about whether somebody was right or not. Now somebody looks on the internet and finds the answer. Well, George is just wrong. Henry is right.

This attention span thing is a problem. And, and really what that is underneath without shaming someone or trying to shame a whole generation. I'm not doing that because there's people within each generation that don't do this or that break free from it. It's emotional maturity. The ability to delay pleasure is assigned a maturity. That's what grownups do. Children do what feels good. Yolo. You only live once, quick.

Instead of like, I'm gonna sacrifice to get a greater outcome. I'm gonna live like no one else so that later I can live and give like no one else. I've got to have the moment at this moment. That is a childish expression of any area of your life. It will destroy your marriage. It will raise horrible children. It'll mess up your career and it certainly will mess up your money. Short-term thinking. The Get Rich Quick has never worked at any time in the world as an ongoing, provable, sustainable process.

It's always, and that's where the tortoise and the hare, he's up, is fable comes from, right? And so we got to stick with this idea. And that even includes our generosity. You know, we were starting to talk about generosity, and the generosity with these folks, with these millionaires that we studied is a steady thing like their savings Is a steady thing. They're not trying to have this one big event that says look at me how generous I am

Instead they're fairly quiet about it almost absurdly quiet and anonymous about it and they steadily give in to something That they believe in if they're a Christian they're going in giving a tie that their local church. If they're Jewish, they might also be tithing at their synagogue. The, you know, regardless of your faith background, there's not a religious background on the planet that does not have a steady giving rhythm as a part of its teaching. Every one of them do, because it's how you build character. And when you're giving, it's almost impossible to not become grateful. And as you become grateful, the next thing that happens is you become more and more content. And the more content you are in a totally discontented culture, the great advantage you

have to build wealth. Oh, Dave, that is such a fantastic answer. I love how we're talking about money, but we're talking about emotional maturity, we're talking about, you know, character and developing character and developing patience and developing discipline. And you told us earlier how you initially came to wealth

the first time around or what was considered rich where you were from the first time around, how emotionally and mentally prepared do we have to be to even be wealthy? Because we talked about the discipline and the postponing of pleasure before we get there. But then even when you get there, to stay there requires a different level of mental

and emotional maturity. Talk to us a bit about that because I think that's often undervalued. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets. The depths of them, the variety of them continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share 10 incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. When I realized this is not just happening to me, this is who

and what I am. I needed her to help me. Something was annoying at me that I couldn't put my finger on, that I just felt somehow that there was a piece missing. Why not restart? Look at all the things that were going wrong. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you'll get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Romani and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte who was loved bomb by the Tinder swindler.

The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help. As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify the narcissist in your life. Each week, you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslightings, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of

the most incredible hot some minds on the planet. Oprah, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter. It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Haw. It's not about us as a generation at this point.

It's about us trying our best to create change. Lumin's Hamilton. That's for me been taking that moment for yourself each day, being kind to yourself, because I think for a long time, I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn.

On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the IHAR Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. It's a different level of nobility, not in an aristocracy sense or a looking down on the little people sense. It's not what I'm saying at all. But this idea, what happens is the people that do this, they grow into, they may be in the acquisition mode early

and as it goes along, but as the weight of the responsibility of the wealth starts to grow on them over time, it does, seldom happens quickly, then it flips from acquisition to servant to serving. And they see their wealth as an opportunity to serve your spouse, I can get her a nice car I can serve my children. They can go to college and we can pay for it

I can serve my community and we can open a homeless shelter or fund a homeless shelter. I can serve The world at large and the more you start to realize then the more money you're managing the more people you can help Because at certain point that you can't ingest enough stuff. If you ate an, you know, when I was a good kid growing up, I never had lobster. That was the, where had lobster came to town, it was a big deal, right? And if I got lobster with that drone butter,

oh my mouth's watering right now. If I got lobster with that drone butter, you know, I thought that was rich people food. And so, you know, I thought rich people ate lobster all the time. And so once I had some money, I finally figured out if you eat enough lobster, it tastes like soap. You can't get enough cars to be okay. Winning does not heal you. Becoming wealthy does not heal you. It makes you more of what you already are. And if you gain wealth gradually and build the character as you're doing it, it will flip

at some point and you will become a noble servant of your family, change your family tree of your community. And that's really all money is good for after a certain point. I mean, again, you can have some nice things and I'm not against having nice things. But your nice things will have you eventually. They'll each you alive if that's where you think happiness is because it's not.

Wow, winning does not heal you. That's definitely a powerful, powerful message for, you know, each and every one of us to hear, especially because I think society, as you said earlier, has actually programmed that feeling, is that if you win, you won't even... Well, actually, we've been made to believe if you win, you don't even need a healing. We end up seeing these folks that are in the celebrity in the spotlight, whether it's sports figures or Hollywood figures or whatever, and they become massively successful within their

craft and financially successful too, but they prove out the concept of what we just said. Their lives are amassed many times, and they didn't get what they hope to get from all of it. They didn't get healing. They didn't get happiness. They didn't get wholeness. They didn't get contentment quite the opposite, wholeness, they didn't get contentment, quite the opposite. Because what money does is it's a magnifier.

It makes you more of what you are. And so to the extent you are whole, it's gonna make you noble and serving and to the extent that you are greedy, you're gonna be unbelievably greedy. To the extent you have a temper problem, you're gonna be a rage of hall like. I mean, you're gonna be more, if you're crazy,

you're gonna get crazier. I mean. I mean, you're gonna be more, if you're crazy, you're gonna get crazier. I mean, whatever it is, it makes you more, it magnifies whatever you are. And so it is a, it's a powerful weapon. It's a powerful tool to be used, but it is very dangerous because it's a magnifier. Yeah, and that links nicely to this really important question you ask.

And answer in chapter seven, which is, will wealth ruin my kids. I think that's a very common again misconception to common question. And you talk about how sometimes parents actually wait too long to talk to kids about money because we kind of things like, oh, they're not going to understand it, they're not going to get it, they're not old enough yet. Talk to us a bit about why we have that fear, that wealth will ruin our kids, and how early can you start?

And I know in the book you talk about the five behaviors to raise money, smart kids, but maybe if you can just touch on 102 of them that you really feel is the right time to start and where to start. Well, if we go back to our earlier discussion, understand that handling money is 80% behavior. It's not different.

And so in the sense that we have to teach our children to behave, we have to teach them to have discipline, self-discipline. They don't have self-control. That they're gonna be a horrible spouse. They're going to be a horrible parent to my grand kid. If they don't have self-control, they're not going to be good employee, or a good boss, a good leader in their organization. And so they have to learn behaviors at home. And we can use money as one of the things we do that we use to teach them to have behaviors.

And so one of the things we all had used on us and we used on our kids was, you know, you have to do your homework and you have to get good grades. Well, that's control, self-control, and we're going to, we'll walk with you, we'll coach you, we'll help you if you're struggling, we support you, but not doing it is not an option. You're going to learn to do, you know, you have to brush your teeth. You're more than half teeth when you're old. You need to brush your teeth. That's a good thing And so you can't just ignore this you have to bathe Because that way you'll get a spouse later in the leaf and so you know, you have to

We want to teach our kids these things, right? So money is the same way and we teach them age appropriate, you know when you pick up your toys in is the same way and we teach them age appropriately. You know, when you pick up your toys in your bedroom and your three, what that really means is is that I picked up all your toys and you picked up two of them. But I'm going to give you all the psychological and emotional credit and give you a high five as the best room cleaner that there ever was on the planet. Oh, and I'm also going to give you a dollar bill to put in your piggy bank over here. I want to put that dollar bill in here because I want you to emotionally associate work with money. Work is where money comes from. And that's absolutely vital. And if you can do that, then you get the ability to teach them to save and to spend wisely. You can

participate. But I'm not, I'm going gonna send a five year old to the salt mines. We're not doing that, you know, but we are gonna, we're gonna, when you're 14, you're gonna do some work. Because if you wait till they're 18 to start teaching work ethic, they don't know how to do anything. Yeah. And then some poor soul is gonna hire them later

and they don't know how to work. Yeah. And so it's a gradual parenting is a gradual process. And then some poor soul is going to hire them later and they don't know how to work. And so it's a gradual parenting as a gradual process like so many good things in life. And so, you know, the idea that we're going to gradually teach them to work, give, save, spend, and if you can teach them to do those things, age appropriately, gradually over time, then they've got the character. They have the skeletal structure in their character's self-control, self-discipline, the ability to delay pleasure, the ability to set a goal towards a goal progressively, age

appropriately, and with some help, with some grace when they fall down, with some love, but not helicoptering in and saving them, let them feel the pain of the struggle. It's good because that's where it all comes from. And you get a callus that way. And so then they're ready to manage money. Oh, by the way, the last step then is that they move from, this is how money works to now.

It is a responsibility. it is a responsibility. Money is a responsibility. You have to manage money for the good of others. You get to participate in some good things by managing it, but you're managing it for the good of your family, your kids, your grandkids, you're changing your family tree, and that's what I did, and that's why there's some

for you in this inheritance, and a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, proverbs. And so we're gonna do that, but you don't get that if it's gonna harm you. And it would harm you if you don't have the skeletal structure, the muscle tin you, in this area to carry it.

And so when you leave kids that were, quote, in the old days, what you used to say, someone's always a spoiled kid. If you have a spoiled kid and you leave them that were, quote, in the old days, what you used to say, so and so was a spoiled kid. If you have a spoiled kid and you leave them a bunch of money, well, there are reality show star or later. That's what they, that's their only skill. And so they can't do anything. And it's sad.

They're sad humans. And they struggle. And then they fall all down all over the place. And everybody's watching them do it. And they do it with big numbers around them. It's awful. And so instead what we want is we want, you know, this is a family that is a family of service and this money is a responsibility.

And if you view it that way, you will have the opportunity to manage it for the good of others and for the people of faith for the good of God. We're going to manage it for God's good. And so, you know, you can have these kinds of ethereal discussions, but you had to build the character along the way. Yeah, what a fantastic and phenomenal answer, Dave, because I made, I did an activity recently where I sat down and I wrote down all the jobs I've had in my whole life

and I was writing down what I learned from each one of them. It was a really fun thing to do. And I realized that when I was 14, I was a paper boy in my area, so I delivered newspapers in my area and I got paid for it. And I remember all the other boys would go and throw the papers in the trash.

So the organizers started giving me more money to do all their streets as well. And then I worked at Morrison's, which is our version of Walmart, it's a grocery store. And then I worked in retail and so on and so forth. And so in the last 20 years, I've had so many jobs since I started working. And you're so right, that I remember paying for my first ever phone bill, paying for my car insurance. Like my parents never paid for those things.

I had obviously lived in their home and you know, was taking care of with shelter and food. But beyond that, any expenditure was personal and I'm so grateful to them for that because it set me up for this understanding of how hard it was to make money, how hard it was to save money, and how often as a kid I was a bad spender and saw zero in my bank account and what that felt like from an anxiety point of view. They let you fall down, but they never

let you fall down hard enough that you were permanently harmed. Yes, yes. Just that you learned the lesson. And so that's a loving parent, and it's not child abuse to teach a child that money is limited. It's not child abuse to say no, no is a complete sentence. It's not child abuse to teach a child to work. Age appropriately so that they can have a sustainable life with dignity. It's very difficult to have a sense of dignity. If you don't have a sense of power over the controllables out there

and people that don't know how to work have no power over those controllables. Yes, yes, very well said. Chapter eight, Dave, you speak about something I mentioned earlier, wealth and the wealthy are not evil. You know, that has always been a struggle and you had this beautiful sentence in the book which you say is equal is not evil. You know, that has always been a struggle and you had this beautiful sentence

in the book, which you say is equal is not fair. Right? Equal is not fair. And I remember that I don't know if you've seen this. There's this graphic on social media that's gone viral a few times. It's, I don't know who made it, but it's a picture of like three people, one's shorter, one's a bit taller, and then there's a really tall person. And they're all standing on an equal size block to watch some sports. And it says equal is, it's similar to that where it's like equality doesn't work because each of these people need a different set of steps to be able to see the sport. And as soon as I read that line in your book, equal is not fair. I thought, okay, that makes sense to me.

But to a lot of people, that's worrying. A lot of people would rather wealth be distributed equally and, you know, figuring that out and working from that perspective. But walk us through your thoughts on why equal is not fair and how we should think about that differently. If you throw the papers and you actually throw them and deliver them to the people's houses and you get paid the exact same as the guy who threw them away, that's not fair. You provided a much more service to the community. You had integrity. You didn't steal. And the guy who threw them away took someone else's papers. They weren't his and he threw them away.

That's stealing. And he didn't follow weren't his, and he threw them away. That's stealing. And he didn't follow through on his promise and he was getting paid for a service he didn't even attempt to do. That's also stealing. So his lack of integrity and lack of service in the marketplace and to say that those two people should be paid the same is an immoral statement. Equal is not fair. It would not be fair for that guy to get the same money over time as you got. Now, I would never propose that two people doing

the exact same thing and providing the exact same level of service somehow got different because of their skin color or their sex or something like that. No. We've got folks with every background, every ethnic origin and everything else on our leadership team and we're completely blind all that. All we want to know inside Ramsey is, did you do the job? And if you did the job, you get the money. And that's how that works. And so that's the only measure. And but to say that we're going to spread it out across the people who did the work, didn't do the work, who plowed the field, or didn't plow the field, who showed up when the storm came through and got the tree out of the road, the other one just sat at home and played some kind of game on the TV or something.

What I mean, that's just communism as what it what it is. At its core, it's an economic system. It's not name calling. This idea that things are equal. So we have to eliminate that number one. Then once we eliminate that, then we start to understand what my friend Rabbi Lapin says. Rabbi Lapin's an orthodox Jewish Rabbi. We become really good friends

because I just love his teaching. Like I love yours. He says that money comes to people who serve. That when you serve your customers, give you certificates of appreciation with presidents faces on them. And so, you know, this idea that evil people prosper, no, they, the percentage of evil people among the wealthy is about the same percentage of evil people among the poor. Because again, money makes you more of what you already are. You're magnified.

And so here's the thing, you think about it. If you got a guy that works on cars, he has an auto repair shop. And you go in there and he tinkers around on the car and he says that'll be $150. And you drive away and the next day your car breaks down again, you come back in there and you go, hey, I'll be $150 and you drive away. And the next day your car breaks down again, you come back in there and you go, hey, I give you $150, you're gonna fix my car.

And he goes, I know, but it'll be another $150. I'm not giving you another $150. And you go back, finally, you go, okay, this guy's a crook, okay? Or he's incompetent, one of the two. He doesn't know how to fix my car. Now, what do you do? Do you keep going there and giving the guy money?

Obviously not. No, more than that, you go tell everyone you know this guy's a crook. Don't do business with him. Now, does that guy prosper at the end of the story? Of course not. He goes out of business. Over time, the marketplace will punish him for his crookedness. Now, take the guy next door who's got a lot of repair place. You go in there, he looks on the hood and he goes, oh, there it is. And he goes, you're okay.

What are you, what are you? Nothing, just remember me when your car really breaks because I just fixed it, it's no big deal. And you drive by going, I found a guy who fixed my car for free and he actually is honest. This is a unicorn. I'm gonna tell everyone about this guy. And then this guy, we visit this guy now, 20 years later, he's got a franchise

operation, he's got this color of store fixing cars in 56 cities across America, he's worth 8 million dollars, and now he's evil. What? That's absurd. The line of thinking here, the critical thinking skills that gets you to that are non-existent. It's impossible to be a crook and prosper in a free marketplace long term. Or to use crookedness as a method of wealth building, because it actually works against you. So that's where I buy, you know, that's his line of thinking on that, and that's where

we go to. So yeah, there are, I know evil people that are rich, but I know a lot more. They're unbelievably kind, generous, grateful. They got more time for you than they'll do anything for any, I mean, they're just unbelievable humans. That's the one, I know a lot more of those than I do crooks. Money is a moral. It's not about money. It doesn't have morals. It's about the human being and when it touches that human, it reflects who they are. Dave, this has been so much fun getting to know you.

I've always watched you from afar. I admired you, you know, big fan follower in me. And to sit down with you and to have this conversation with you and to hear about the depth of these ideas, right? Your highly strategic methodical people can actually get really functional advice on how to change their lives financially, but I love the depth and the gravitas with which you do it. I genuinely mean that.

And we end every on purpose episode with the final five. These questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. So they're a quick fire round. Dave Ramsey, these are your final five. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay, awesome.

So the first question is, what is the best financial advice you've ever heard received or given? Be intentional. Second question, what is the worst financial advice you've ever received or given. Be intentional. Second question. What is the worst financial advice you've ever received or heard? You can borrow your way under wealth. Great answer.

Very aligned. All right. Question number three. What do you believe is the best investment or spending that you've ever done in your life? Giving. Beautiful. Question number four.

What do you think was your biggest financial mistake of an investment or a expenditure going deeply into that to build wealth? And fifth and final question, if you could make one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? I would require them to be generous. It's beautiful. Dave Ramsey, everyone, if you haven't already got the book, baby steps millionaires, please go and grab a copy of the book.

If you don't subscribe to Dave's podcast, the Ramsey show, make sure you do his podcast. Lots of other incredible podcasts as part of that network as well. Please tag Dave and I on Instagram, on Facebook, on Twitter, about what resonated with you, what you took away. There were so many nuggets of wisdom,

and insight, I love the studies and resets that Dave shared. Make sure you tag us both to let us know because we'd love to see what you took away and make sure you keep coming back to on purpose for more insights into your mental health, which includes your finances, which includes your fitness and of course includes your friendships. Dave, thank you so much. Any final words for our community? I'm unbelievably honored to be with you. I hope we get to do this again and the next time we need to just hang out a little bit. I would absolutely love that. If you're in LA, let me know. If I'm in Nashville, I'll let you know. Otherwise, I'm going to keep supporting from afar and we'll definitely do this again. So thank you, Dave, and thank

you to your whole amazing team as well. We've been so helpful. Thank you, sir. Thank you. The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life admits the challenges we face. We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app, Apples, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHeart.

I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions. Like, can we create new senses for humans? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eaglement on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The world of chocolate has been turned upside down. A very unusual situation. You saw this tax of cash in her office.

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