On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Dax Shepard ON: Prioritizing Your Mental Health After Addiction & How to Make Peace with Your Past

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon.Do you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on CalmJay Shetty sits down with Dax Shepard to talk about valuing yourself and sticking to what you believe in above all. At certain points in our life we will come across conflicting interests and opposing ideas, and these could shake the foundation of what we believe to be right. And that’s okay. Living with two opposing ideas can be challenging but these will give us new and better life perspectives. Dax Shepard is an actor, comedian, writer, and director, and of course podcast host of one of my favorite podcasts, Armchair Expert. He's known for his appearance in films like Without a Paddle, Zathura: A Space Adventure, Employee of the Month, and many, many more. He also portrayed Crosby Braverman in the NBC comedy drama series, Parenthood from 2010 to 2015. He also played Luke Matthews in the Netflix show, The Ranch, co-starred in ABC's Bless this Mess, and acted in the MTV reality series Punk’d. And since 2018, Dax has hosted the award-winning podcast show, Armchair Expert, where he interviews celebrities, journalists, and academics about the messiness of being human. Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/What We Discuss:00:00 Intro02:30 A good memory but terrible with remembering dates09:00 The memories that support your own identity14:14 The ‘you’ embracing yourself23:04 Running from or embracing your ethnicity26:18 Getting drawn to successful people29:20 The practice of having vulnerable conversations33:08 Getting out of the skepticism38:49 Recognize what the people around you want49:38 Entertaining two ideas at once that are seemingly contradictory56:36 Encouraging critical thinking at home01:06:11 Teaching your children how to be resilient01:10:20 Balance between self validation and humility01:15:43 Dax on Final FiveEpisode ResourcesDax Shepard | InstagramArmchair Expert Podcast | YouTube | Instagram | Facebook | TwitterSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War Two? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover.

And a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender invisible things we don't usually talk about?

I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by Stellar, Gas like Abormatte, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeartRadio app,

or wherever you listen to podcasts. We don't ever feel like we're enough. The other thing I think that happened in my life, which is significant, is that I joined a 12 step program, 18 years ago to get sober, and I got a ton of practice talking about my shortcomings, my failures, my fears, and it's a unique experience because it was met always with understanding no judgment, compassion, unity. And I don't know how you could get those hours of practice without that. better. Hey everyone, welcome back to this very untraditional on purpose podcast that has already been taping

for maybe 15 minutes of a very general conversation that Dax and I have been having. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love is Out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book. For you to listen to this book, I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eight rules of love.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep or let go of love.

So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour. Love rules. Go to jsheditour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. As you already know, our amazing guest today is none other than Dax Shepherd, actor, comedian, writer and director. And of course, podcast host of one of my favorite podcasts, Armchair Expert. He's known for his appearance in films like without a paddles, a thorough space adventure, employee of the

month and many, many more. And Dax also portrayed Crosby Braveman in the NBC comedy drama series, parenthood from 2010 to 2015. He also played Luke Matthews in the Netflix show, The Ranch Coast Guard, in ABC's Bless This Mess, and acted in the MTV Reality Series punk that I grew up on. And since 2018, Dax has hosted the award-winning podcast show, Amjorexper, where he interviews celebrities, journalists, and academics about the messiness of being human. If you don't already listen to it, make sure you go and listen to Amjorexper.

And Dax and I got into a very random Instagram comment conversation which led to a bit of DM, which led to us connecting in this way. So, DAX, welcome to the episode. And I'm genuinely a fan and admirer, excited to connect, as I said, Kristen has been so gracious and kind to me before. It's wonderful to connect all the dots. Thank you for being here.

Oh, it's my pleasure. That intro was exhausting, I's my pleasure. That intro was exhausting. I felt for you. I was excited by, I love diving into people's past and experiences and kind of connecting the dots because I think it's really easy to, as you know, look at someone and think, oh yeah, well, they've always been this way or they've all resiled together. And then you look at the date that someone started and you go, oh wow, they've been doing this for a long time.

And I think that's always a, it's a beautiful thing I actually think. I think it's weird as for the person. You know, like when I'm now, I just had someone an hour ago, I interviewed Mandy Moore and we got to talking about the fact that she had been on punk. And then we started doing the math and was like, wow, that was 18 years ago. I said, if we had had a child that night, then we would be sending them off to college.

That's kind of mind blowing in aging is such a peculiar phenomenon to begin with. And the fact that if you're an actor or whatever, you have some resume that's publicly known, it's kind of documented the timeline. Yeah. So it's like an upside to that, which is cool. And there's a downside to it, of course, but I have a very good memory, but I have a very terrible memory for dates. So I can basically tell you if things happen before 93 from high school, before or after 2000, and then maybe some of my kids were born. There's probably a gap between 2000

and 2013, where I don't know,, could have been anywhere in that zone. Yeah, I love hearing that actually. It makes me feel a lot better because I have a friend that I connect with regularly. I went to high school with him and we actually went to the same college. So we were together from 11 to 21. And he'll remind me of like, do you remember this person?

I'll be like, oh my gosh, I've completely forgot. Or like, do you remember we did this ridiculous thing together and it's weird because 11 to 21 is such formative years you think I would remember them but those are some of the ones that I've completely wiped off my memory. And what's your theory on why that has happened? I mean my theory is I that was preceding the time that I spent living as a monk for three years. I really believe that a lot of my rewiring of my brain and habits during my time as a monk erased certain memories that were no longer useful in the new identity and new mindsets

that I was creating. And that wasn't conscious. It was so unconscious and unintentional, but that is the only theory I have. What about for you? Why is that 93? And then the 2000 to 2013, Mark, what's your theory? Well, now I can tell you everything that happened.

I just can't tell you what years they happened. Right, also. Okay. Necessarily, what predated the other thing. It's kind of more of a chronological issue, but I do have all the memories now. I'll tell you a very crazy example. So I'm driving in the car one day and I don't know why I think this maybe I see a billboard or something who knows, but I just started thinking of whoopi Goldberg and I think, I love whoopi Goldberg. I just love her. I've

always loved her. She does always seem so certain of who she was and blah, blah. And I'm just kind of, I don't know, ruminating on how much I like her. My, her, and then I had this kind of snapshot memory of hugging her. And then I thought, well, hmm, I've never met her. I don't know how I would have hugged her. And now I become obsessed with like, is that an imagination that I have? You know, and then I'm thinking about it for so long, a couple hours that eventually I put into YouTube, Dax Shepard, who'll be Goldberg. And by God, I've been on the view three times. And this is not shade to the view.

I had to enamored with that. I think that's an incredible thing to have gotten to do. But I just had to confront. So my first thought was like, ooh, that's very scary. But anyways, I was like, oh right, I was on the view and I hugged her afterwards and I got the teller that I really respect her. But I wanted to kind of figure out how that had happened.

That would be inconceivable to me at 12 years old if you said, hey, you're gonna be on the show one day and you're gonna forget you're on that show. And so then I was feeling bad about myself. I was getting critical, this must be some failing. But then I just kind of thought, man, when you do press, people who are in show business, they don't know. Like, if I go to New York to promote parenthood, my day is, I started the today show. Then I go to a second version of the today show. I do five print media things. I end up doing

the view and maybe Rachel Ray. And so all these other daytime shows and then it goes into a night time talk show. I'll be on you know of You name it Seth Meyers And if you've done that if you've been on enough shows and you've gone in New York to do that You know, it's just it's a capacity issue. I have to imagine, you know There's I'm only you know, I have a finite memory and, you know, you kind of dump some of those appearances, I guess. But I wanted to, of course, to find something wrong with me. And now I've come to peace with just like, yeah, it's not like I'm a hot shot.

I'm not arrogant. I don't think I'm too cool for the view. That's not it. It's just a capacity issue. Yeah, it's a capacity issue. And like you said, a repetition issue. If you're doing something repeatedly, you're not gonna remember it the seventh time

or the third time you do it. And that's key. Yeah. And my first time on the Today Show, I could tell you every moment of it. Yes. As if it's been recorded and then not any of the subsequent ones probably.

Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I think what's fascinating about memory, though, seeing as we've gone there now, is so many of our memories are also based on pictures that we saw of ourselves as children. So what I've realized is when you can see yourself in a memory, that's not a memory, it's a picture, because your view as a memory, you would be not looking at yourself. Great way to delineate that, but I'll add to the confusion for me personally. It's like, if I'm on Letterman, there is a monitor by the camera, so I actually can see

me on Letterman while I'm on Letterman. So then again, now for me to unravel whether I remember the appearance that I saw on TV or my experience there, I don't know who knows. But that's the worst case of inception, there probably is. So yeah, that sounds pretty cool. You're all like a mirror with a mirror behind you. So yeah, I don't know.

I don't know what image is correct. Yeah, I often get fascinated by that memory point though, that how many of those experiences that I remember of childhood were actually me living them or my parents showed me video or my parents showed me a picture of myself. And I think about that often with how I'm someone that doesn't, despite my life being on social media

and certain parts documented, I'm actually not good at getting my phone out and grabbing pictures, and it's not a part of my daily, I don't really walk around my phone out so much. And then I often also ask that, well, if I haven't taken a picture, do I actually even remember it that well if it wasn't like a really moving, dynamic experience? I mean, when you think about memories, what are your, like, I guess, what are your favorite,

some of your favorite memories, personally or professionally, that stay strong, that you feel are so crystal clear that you could feel them again. I hate to admit this, but I've come to understand that the memories that support what I think my identity is. Yes. It's interesting that you even brought up the monk thing and how you kind of lost an identity. And in order to do that, you almost had to lose the memory. So it makes sense to me, because you're like, you've lost the plot points that led to your conclusion that you were Jay Shetty,

whatever you thought you were at that point. And I have been in a business where, and this isn't unique to me, but a little bit it is, only because I acted and I also wrote. I was employed as a writer as much as an actor and then also I directed for a few years so I was always kind of juggling like oh am I an actor? No, I'm a writer. It's not working out as an actor. I'm a writer and then oh my god I'm a writer director. That's what I am and so and and as those things either failed or succeeded

I'd have that identity a little longer. And then all of a sudden I was a podcaster. And now I'm considering an identity. Now of course there's all work related. But now my identity is like me weirdly. You know, I have a show, I have a podcast where it's just me. And as I do that longer,

I'm kind of less interested in all the other identities I had. And then of course, the crowning jewel of identities for me is a father. So this Sunday, it'll be nine years that I'm a dad. And then that kind of just overtook all the other ones gracefully and thankfully where that one feels like bedrock. You know, that feels like sun or sibling, whatever. And I had no clue how much I needed that. Yeah, because I wasn't willing to go be a monk

for three years to find out who I actually was without any of these connections. So, yeah, it was just a great relief to have something that I would define myself around other than work, which is fickle and good and bad and all those many things. But so for memories I'm probably inclined to tell you all the steps that led to me getting on punked or all the steps that led to me being a class clown or, you know, and then even we're doing all this because we also touched on your life making sense now at this point. I had the ultimate moment of that while hosting top gear

which I've done for the last two years, where my other side hustle was always motorsports. That's all I really everyone. I just, if I could have been a race car driver, that would have been it. Oh wow. So I've spent all this time at race tracks and racing and riding motorcycles and doing all this stuff.

And there was just a moment shooting one particular episode of Top Gear where I drifted this Dodge Hellcat around a dirt oval track in Arizona all day long, dead sideways, it was a blast. And I left and I thought, my God, it all makes sense. Like I went into improv, the show's not scripted. I was, all I wanted to do is drive fast and crazy. And I wanted to be in camera and by God now,

at this vantage point, then 46, I was like, oh, it all makes sense. But certainly it never made sense in root to there. That was a long answer. That was a great. I mean, that's what podcasts are for, right? So that was a great. That's true. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I find that fascinating too. And what I really appreciated where you started off was, and it was actually very reassuring for me, which I appreciated was I kind of went that too. I went through being a student and a South Asian person in England who had certain aspirations to then

living as a monk and then to leave being a monk, which has a very clear identity shift and then being like, well, I'm a monk and then I went back into the world of corporate to pay the bills and survive and in management. And then now in media where we do so much in media and it's almost like, I feel like for a long time I was juggling those two. It's like, well, I'm married now too and they all seem to be M's as well, like married monk, media, management. And I go, you know, which one am I? And it was the same thing as you said that,

I really feel now I'm at a point where I've just accepted that I really enjoy the paradoxical experience of my life. And I appreciate and acknowledge each part of those experiences equally. I'm really grateful that I got to have my time in the monastery and what I learn from there, which is foundational to the work I do today. But at the same time, I love the fact that I'm in media

and I get to apply it in a completely different direction and I love being married. I really enjoy the learning process of what that looks like and then the management part has been so useful from a professional standpoint. And it's like you said, you get to being you. And I guess my question is like, how long did it take you or what was some of the inner workings of learning to accept and give yourself the permission to be all of them, none of

them, some of them, a part of them because I still feel we live in an industry where, or not even in an industry, we live in an industry where, or not even in an industry, we live in a world where it's like, well, what do you do? And it's your job title. And I was saying to my, I was saying to my PR team day, I was like, I'll be so much happier if they just put my mission as my lower third and not my title, because my title doesn't really say much about who I really am. And so does that make sense? It does. And in fact, I'm always a little curious how embracing people are of a title that they also know millions of other people have as a title. So what is it now? Granted, I just said I'm a father, which is, you know, whatever, a third of the country. But I'll give you the

one that is a pet peeve of mine is like, people on their social media it'll say liberal or conservative Democrat or Republican. And my, I guess I'm just, I'm too insatiably in search of being unique for that to be satisfying for me. Like what could it say about me if all I've done is carved 300 million people into two groups? It'd be no different than writing mail.

Like, who am I? I'm mail. What does that mean? You know, anything where half of the country can fit into it, I don't know why that's of interest in describing yourself. But me embracing me. I threw in security, of course, but through insecurity, I chose a very specific route through junior high high school, which was I'm punk rock.

I'm a skateboarder, I'm a snowboarder, I'm punk rock. Well, and again, stemming from insecurity, which is, I couldn't, I didn't think I could pull off the other thing. Like I was looking at everyone in there. I didn't have cowlicks, they could have this perfect middle part. I couldn't do it. Their parents could afford Jordan's mind couldn't. So I couldn't do that. And this was a Jordan's mind couldn't. So I couldn't do that.

And this was a kind of a weird, I know what it read as. It reads as confidence, which is great, because I actually kind of back to myself into being confident. So I was, you know, Mohawk crazy clothes combat boots, because I wanted to send a message like, I'm not playing that game, so you can't evaluate me by those rules. That was what the insecurity part was. And then I got like positive reinforcement for that. And that kind of, you know, that's remained a little bit in me that when I wrote, it didn't take me any time to find my voice.

I just, I wrote as if no one was ever going to read it. And if they did, read it and didn't like it, I didn't care. Acting was different because I certainly was like I had heroes. I wanted to be Bill Murray or Chevy Chase or Will Farrell. What did he that took a minute and that's an interesting story itself is I happen to do a movie that was entirely improbbed just before I got cast on parenthood. So I couldn't have done a character, maybe other people could have. I couldn't have done a character and have improv sincerely an entire movie.

I just thought I got, I'm just gonna have to be as close to myself as I can so that I can speak in my own voice and improv. And that was a kind of breakthrough for me because I watched it and I was really kind of happy with it. And other people thought it was really good and it's what made me then go, I'm enough.

I don't have to have an accent. I don't have to have this. I don't have to, I'm enough. Which is a hard thing to get to. I remember reading, I quote this all the time on my show, which is I was reading an interview with Nicholas Cage who was obsessed with his kid. He was my actor.

That's who I would want to be. He was nuts. And he said it was not until he did the movie Face Off and he and Travolta swapped faces. So inevitably they had to do impersonations of each other. And he said he didn't know until he watched John Travolta do an impersonation of him that he actually was unique enough to even impersonate. And I thought, how could Nicholas Cage, one of the most unique performers

have not known that until he witnessed that? And so it can happen to people, right? We don't ever feel like we're enough. And then the other thing I think that happened in my life, which is significant is that I joined a 12 step program 18 years ago to get sober and I got a 12 step program 18 years ago to get sober. And I got a ton of practice talking about my shortcomings, my failures, my fears, my end.

And it's a unique experience because it was met always with understanding no judgment, compassion, unity. And I don't know how you could get those hours of practice without that. I'm just not sure. So I think that program helped me just be me and not be terribly worried about it. Yeah, yeah.

No, I agree with you. I don't think there's a substitute for that practice that that can I ask you a question? Yeah. Are you just a romantic? Because at first, I think the commitment to go be a monk for three years is insane. I loved worldly pleasures. I wanted to make love to everyone. I wanted to drive fast cars and have people give me approval. So at first

glance, it would be an impossible endeavor for me. I just couldn't do it. And I assume, too, there's a hierarchy and people tell you what to do. And I assume, too, there's a hierarchy and people tell you what to do. I would hate that. But there's also a part of me that would have had a romantic fantasy about what it would have been, and that it would have been a bold

and historic decision. Like, I had that type of ego where I would have like, I'm gonna do something no one would do. So what on earth got you to leave the worldly world and be willing to do that? Yeah, no, thank you for that question. I think for me, if I'm honest about it at the time,

and it's something you actually touched on a couple of seconds ago, which we haven't dived into yet, but it was, I was at the same, and same as you, I resonate with that. I loved approval, validation, I had lots of girlfriends, I was, you know, all the rest of it. I've born and raised in London, so I lived a very normal life.

And I, the only thing that was fascinating to me at the time was Rags to Rich's story. So my dad had started giving me biographies because he was scared I wasn't reading because I never liked fiction growing up. I've, I've, I love nonfiction, I've never been a huge fiction fan. And my dad was the person who kind of, either he knew that or didn't know that,

but he started giving me biographies of famous people, autobiographies of people. And so I read Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, and this was all in my teens. And so I was fascinated by people who'd shifted culture or made differences in the world, but I was also fascinated by money and CEOs and entrepreneurs and athletes and actors.

And so I would go, and this is before you podcasting in YouTube, so I would go to my college and hear speakers who were invited to talk about their careers or their journeys. So you'd go to a physical event, sit in the audience and listen. And I met, at that time, so many different people. And one of the person that I heard speak was the monk that I ended up writing about in my book

and his name's Gorangadass, and I ended up spending time with him. And he's the thing, Dax, that it was like, at that age of my life, I was 18 years old. I'd met people who were rich, I'd met people who are famous. I'd met people who were famous, I'd heard people who were successful and beautiful and attractive. But I don't think I'd met anyone who was truly happy and content.

Now, whatever that meant at age 18, right? Like, not that I knew what that even meant, but at least at that age. And from here, my felt a sense of, and by the way, there was nothing externally attractive about this man. He was Indian, he had a thick Indian accent, he was wearing robes, but I was so attracted to him. And I was like, what is it? Why am I attracted to this guy?

And I didn't even want to go. I mean, I don't know how much you know the story, but I've told this often. I told my friends who invited me to the event that I would only go if we went to a bar afterwards, because I was just uninterested in monks or spirituality. And so I went... You said contentment, I was not in search of contentment.

Neither was I. I want to gay us. And neither was I. I was a rebel. I'd been, you know, just to give you a bit of a background. I'd been suspended from school three times. I was a rebel. I was involved in all sorts of the wrong circles. And here I am randomly at a monk talking and thinking, this is going to be the biggest waste of time.

But I felt an attraction and I said to him, I- Can I ask one really quick question too? Yeah, of course. I don't know what the, they say for lack of, I don't know exactly, are you Indian or person Indian? I am Indian, yes. Yes. Okay. I don't know what the second or third generation Indian

experience is in London. I only know somewhat what it's like here in the States from Monica, but. Yeah, of course, of course. I guess my first thought is, were you running from or embracing your ethnicity at that age? I would say that London, I feel that the South Asian community

or Indian community in London is not that my parents had this, but by the time I was there, it's more embraced into culture. So I would say in my primary school, elementary school, I was bullied for being Indian, but then by the time I was in high school, I was surrounded by Indians. So that was kind of like my experience where I would say I was pretty neutral. We weren't doing either because you were kind of embraced but kind of bullied. It was kind of in between.

That makes sense because I'm just imagining how that speaker come to Monica's college, University of Georgia, she would have run for the past. She would have been like, don't, I don't want anyone to connect my otherness with this person's otherness. So that wasn't at play. Okay, I was just curious about that. Yeah, no, no, no, it's a good question. Anyway, but yeah, that was the reason that I would say

that it was as simple as like what you were saying about race car driving or Will Ferrell and I wanna dive into that idea. It was as simple as this person at this point in my life is the most inspirational person I've met. And I wanna know how they got there. So I'm gonna study their life. I'm gonna spend time with them if I have the opportunity.

And after doing that for three years where I would spend my vacations and Christmas holidays with him in India and spending time with him, I was just like, this is what I wanna do in my life. So, and then I went and actually lived as among for three years.

So, it was study, it was research, it was intrigue, it was curiosity, and it wasn't. Do you feel like he had a magic? He still does to this day, like, yeah, he's still amazing, and he's still has a magic about him, which hasn't worn off for me for sure. Because it's interesting,

because there can even be within something as a steer or as simplistic, there can still be some grandizement. Like I want more, right? So I think all the things you've listed that you were previously interested in is similar to me, like I want more. I've had this experience.

I want, I really want it all. Like, whatever is an option on this ride through Planet Earth, I want to experience it. So I can imagine if I thought, like, oh my God, this person has magic. You know, I remember hearing crazy stories. I'm sure they were just stereotypical. What would you call them?

Like, Arcadian fantasy archetypes of spiritual people. hearing crazy stories. I'm sure they were just stereotypical. What would you call them? Like, Arcadian fantasy archetypes of spiritual people. Where it's like, oh, they can soar with an eagle. And when I let myself imagine, I'd dedicate myself to something if I could embody an eagle and fly around. You know, I'm bummed there's no hot women and really cool cars on the scene,

but I might trade that off to be able to transcend this body. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Opro, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter. It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Haw. It's not about us as a generation at this point. It's about us trying our best to create change.

Louren's Hamilton. That's for me being taken that moment for yourself each day, being kind to yourself, because I think for a long time, I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made

a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is the destination for all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Here, we have the conversations that help Black women dig a little deeper into the most impactful relationships in our lives, those with our parents,

our partners, our children, our friends, and most importantly, ourselves. We chat about things like what to do with a friendship ends, how to know when it's time to break up with your therapist, and how to end the cycle of perfectionism. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Take good care.

I'm Munga Shatekater and to be honest, podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Take good care. I'm Mungesha Tickler and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention. Because maybe there is magic in the stars if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, majorly baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop.

But just what I thought I had to handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world can crash down. Situation doesn't look good, there is risk too far. And my whole view on astrology? It changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I think it was, right?

It was the, I was so deeply in awe of someone's presence and energy and I didn't even know what those words meant at that time, but it was such a deep attraction that my attraction for other things was dimmed in the light of that. And that's what I realized, that it's not that those other attractions just disappeared. It's just that they were dimmer in light of that attraction. I guess with you, what were you referring to then when you were talking about like having people you look up to or when you mentioned certain names? And I think there was something in there around that idea that we all have of wanting more but also seeing more in others. Was that where were you going with that thought?

Well, there's a bunch of them. They're always, if you really look at it, they're probably always linked to insecurities of mine and or some pride in something I think I have. So with Nicholas Cage, I think I was so drawn to him as an actor because I was like, this guy is, he's fine looking. You know what I'm saying? He's not, he's not gorgeous. He's not unattractive.

He's just fine. I think he's getting by because he's tall. And so I thought maybe I could do that too. I was not the cutest kid in my school ever. I wasn't, you know, but I was tall, that kind of worked enough. And he was certainly nuts. Like he was, he would make crazy choices in movies.

He'd do crazy characters. And I thought, okay, that seems achievable for what I'm working with. And then on an aspirational front, you had like Bill Murray who, I don't think there's ever been a performer I've seen that is as comfortable in their skin as Bill Murray is. Like whatever you felt about the person you studied with,

I look at him and I was like, Ma, I still do. And I think, God, if I could feel as comfortable in my body as he seems to, that must be, you know, a lading experience. And so he was maybe more aspirational. And then Will Ferro is more just like, the greedy pig in me, like, oh, this guy dominates,

you can't hold a candle. If you're in a scene with him, you might as well close your eyes the whole time. No one's gonna look at you. You don't even need to be in your wardrobe. He's just so dominant and hysterical and then in winning. Every movie's opening number one. I know what he's getting paid.

So all that greedy pig side to me was attracted to maybe his status. That's maybe a great way to say it. Both a total admiration for his skill level, which I don't even possess, but I think the status appealed to me. Like, oh, that would be it. If you could walk into a studio and go, hey, man, I don't know what to tell you. Here's the idea.

It's me in the 70s as a newscaster. And that's all you got to say. And they're like, yes, here's the checkbook. That's like the dream. So maybe that, yeah. So all sorts of facets of my personality probably drove me to admire or try to, you know, aim towards those people. Yeah, and with the and with the 12 step program and that journey too, like, what was it like that first time?

And my my more understanding of that journey comes through one of my dear friends, Russell Brand, because he he he speaks about it often as well. And me and him share the same meditation teacher and so that's how I got to know him a long time ago. And so I that's that's my only knowledge of it. So apart from that, you know, I've only learned about it through him. But with that experience, what was it like that first time? Because I love what you said, it was it was so interesting to me because I've never heard anyone say that, but the practice of having vulnerable conversations about your flaws in a space that is non-judgment-based and non-critical. What was it like that first time when you saw that happening around you?

Did you look at it and go, well, this can't be real or because we've never experienced that? Or did you look at it and go oh this is easy I can be an open book like how did that feel for the first time because I'd say most people have never really been in a room That looks like that unless they are Going on the 12 step program, right? That's such a huge question First of all my my father got sober when I was 14 so I had some loose knowledge of it I'd gone to meetings with him.

I knew a lot about it. That in its own way became a hurdle to me because that was virtually like my Catholicism. We weren't a religious family, but I know no one, people like me don't want to just take the religion they were handed, you know, it's just, I don't know. So that it was a hurdle in some ways. But when I went there and this again is about me, I can't really answer to why it appeals to other

people, but I have this deep skepticism about people in general. Because of my childhood, there's a lot of distrustful people, I have a really overly healthy skepticism. So if I had walked into AA and there was a leader of AA, it would have been out. If there was a way to move up in AA, I would have been out. If there was any money associated with AA, I'd be out. Because as soon as those things are on the table, I'm obsessed with intentions. I cannot feel safe and comfortable until I think I've accurately evaluated your intentions. So the magic of that place to me is almost structural. I don't know how this thing has existed for 80 years without a president or a CEO or anybody.

Because had I gone and there was a leader, right? And I heard other men share, vulnerable. I would have immediately thought, oh, they're trying to impress this guy. So what I am to do is that this guy likes vulnerability. This guy's probably perverse in some way or maybe he wants leverage on people or he wants collateral. That's why he's encouraging everyone

to dump their secrets. So I couldn't have done it. I mean, just a simple fact that no one there can tell you whether you're right or wrong, all they can do and all I can do is share my experience, my strength and my hope. That's all it is.

So I think just that neutral, no one's incentivized, no money, no hierarchy, that's why it was magic for me. Yeah, that's special. That's really amazing because when you think about that, as I said before, that's super rare in the world for people to have a space like that to go to. I don't know what it is to be honest, because even the church,

I can be really skeptical of that. I think obviously I think there's some continuum of religions, world religions, where less are hierarchical, less are money driven. But certainly, soon as you've got an intermediary between this book everyone believes in, and you, I don't like that. I'm out for any system that has someone that has to interpret a book we can all read. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't trust that. Why would that be necessary? Again, but I can own my own baggage. I'm a distrusting person out of the gates. How, how have you, I'm fascinated by that. And, and I don't, I, I, again, I don't, I, I, don't think that's just a baggage thing. I think there's, there's triggers and there's baggage, right? There's both. Like there's, you, it's not that what you're seeing is not also true. There is

truth in what you're seeing. And then there's truth in the trigger. So it's both hands. But when I look at when I'm really interested in knowing how you as a more skeptical person or untrusting person have found an ability to build trust in a relationship with your wife in a relationship. I don't and again, I don't know you that way, so I'm projecting and you can fill in the right details. Well, with business partners, with people in your life, with even directors you work with who are giving you advice on how to portray a character like, can you walk us through a journey of trust from the DAC Shepherd perspective of going from being someone who has

skepticism, a healthy skepticism, as you said. That's a great question because I'm most comfortable telling you about things I've overcome. Like, I'm happy to tell you I haven't drank in 18 years. Like, I'll tell you all about how I figured out how to do that, right? I also want to say, and this is why your, your, your choice to be a monk perplexes me because I was only open to that radical change. Let me just say, there's a bunch of gods mentioned a whole load in that big book, and that's a big trigger for me.

But I wanted to die less than I want to say God. It may be the only thing to be honest. So, you know, it's a great motivator for change when you actually come to terms with the fact that the other option's death. So every other option for me is probably a little less painful than death. So I start from there, I'm not someone

who's quick to listen to other people and believe that what they said is working, it's really newly being explored. Like I'm just newly in therapy to actually confront this. Do, do, do I really trust what allows me to trust people is not healthy is I actually, I think I'm wrong sometimes, but I'm actually very, very good at assessing intention. Because I've lived this way for so long, I'm pretty good at walking into a room and figuring out what everyone in there's motive is.

And there are a lot of motives that don't trigger me. So I don't mind, like, you know, it gets tricky when you're, I hate this word, but famous. If you're on TV, there's gonna be a dynamic around you with how people act towards you. And you can find yourself questioning

like, oh, is this person really like me? Are they just trying to perhaps get in my circle so they can elevate their own thing? And then somehow you come out on the other side is like, that's not even the right question ask. Is this relationship beneficial to me? Do I enjoy it? If this person ends up getting the thing they want, does that affect me in any way? No, doesn't. And do I enjoy them? Like, I gotta get out of, sometimes I can recognize the intention and then just step over it.

Like, and it doesn't matter. Yeah. I have intentions. We all have intentions. But there are intentions. I don't mind. And there's ones that I mind. But with my wife,

there was a super, super specific thing which was, my family was single mom three kids. The way you showed you loved each other was to never, ever be a drain on one another. That was the ultimate way. It's to be self-sufficient. We were all over, overworked underfunded. And then what you could do is never suck on anyone else. So when you get sick in my house, no one cares. And that was not Kristen's experience, right? So there was at one time in particular, like they were kind of stacking up and she said, well, you get me a water.

We're both sitting on the couch. Now if I'm standing next to the sink and you say, get me a water, that makes sense. But the notion that I would get up off the couch and get you a water when you two are next, that was, I had to bring it up. I was like, I'm sorry, I don't, this is crazy to me that you would ask me to do something that would take me just as much effort

as you and you're the one that's thirsty. I'm not thirsty. And she's like, well, God, oh, my family, that's how we do it. Like, some days you have energy and you don't mind getting everyone, you make the dinner, everyone else is tired. And then the other days you're tired, they make the dinner, it's all symbiotic and it all works. And I'm like trying to buy into this.

I'm actually trying to figure out, no, is she just lazy and like, I'm setting a pattern in this relationship where I'm gonna wait on her hand and put it, that's off the table. And I honestly, I had to ask myself the question, is this person out to harm me? Or do I truly believe this is a good person? And this is just how she operates.

And I don't know that I really ever asked myself, or forced myself to think of it in that way. And I concluded and this was like 14 years ago, she's a good person. She's gonna do things that I think are weird and blah, blah, blah, but ultimately, my diagnosis, my verdict, is this is a good person, and I'm gonna learn to work through all those other things

because I'm gonna make that conclusion now. Now whether she is or not, it kinda doesn't matter. I decided that. Yes. And that has allowed me not, it kinda doesn't matter. I decided that. Yes. And that has allowed me to cohabitate with her for a very long time. Which is not to say I won't think she's out to destroy me sometimes

because I'll also lapse into that. Of course you will, of course you will. And I think that's a healthier way to make it. I love what you said there though, because I've often, I've never really had this conversation with anyone before and I think the same. I think I have a strong intention radar and I'm highly aware of people's intentions in my periphery and not, I think I've had it for a long time and

I don't think I've ever had this conversation with anyone before because I've never heard anyone actually say that. And when you said that, I was wondering, what are the things you're looking out for when you are? Because I think that's something a lot of people struggle with, right? I think a lot of people are listening to us right now would say, well, Dax and Jay, like, I'd never know. Like, I thought this person was amazing and then they screwed me over. Or, you know, this person was like, my business partner and we were building, and then all of a sudden they changed. And I'm wondering whether you would say, actually,

no, I could tell that intention was always there. It's just that it manifested later. Yeah. Yeah, talk to me how you assess intention so that our audience can think about that too for themselves. Well, let's start with, okay, so you just said you got bullied in elementary school. Yeah. So you were in situations I'm sure you were misled.

You thought someone was your friend and then all of a sudden they turned their back on you because these other dudes who were cooler and to elevate or lower themselves, right? Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you a specific story because it's as soon as you said that this memory came like shooting back. So I was the doorky geeky overweight Indian kid in elementary school and the the toughest kid in school became my best friend for some reason. I have no idea why and so as Jay and Ian Ian was his name and Ian became my best friend at school and he would protect me from the bullies and he would defend me and I don't

I've no I still don't know why I should him. I know I have him as a Facebook friend, so I need to go and ask him, oh, why? And so he would really protect me and defend me. And I never felt an ego. I was like, wow, like that's so nice of him. And then what happened is that one of the girls told him, when we got older, I think we were in like fourth grade. Yeah, probably like fourth grade.

And one of the girls who was kind of dating him or whatever dating looks like in the fourth grade, she said to him, she goes, well, you know, Jay's been talking crap about you. And that wasn't true. I would never do that. It's not my vibe. And he was like, for some reason,

I don't know what it was. I have no idea why. She told him she was like, Jay's been talking crap about you. And just so you know, I wanted you to be the first to know. And you know, he's been doing it. I don't know this conversations happen all of a sudden. I see my best friend at school storm out of the canteen,

walk right up to me while I'm playing football soccer with a bunch of my friends onto the big field that we had at school. And he punches me in the face. He rips my shirt, pushes me, punches me in the face again. I've got, I'm on the floor going, Ian, what is wrong with you? He's just like punching me away in the fourth grade.

And afterwards I remember the most embarrassing thing. My mom drives me to his mom's house after school for him to apologize to me. Oh, that's it. That's the meaning of mom move right there, right? Yeah, when you said that, that was the first memory, I've never shared that memory. Anyway, that was the first thing that came to my mind.

Anyway, so I will give you back the intentions thing. Let's go. Well, and without getting bogged down in my trauma off, just, I was molested at a young age. And so once that happens to you, and it's only one of many things that happened to me, you have to recognize that your worldview, where people are generally nice and kind and helpful,

is incomplete. Yeah. That there are other people who are acting one way to you and building trust with you because they have an ulterior motive. I also had a slew of stepdads. Some of them were terrible. You know, so once

you recognize that there are people. Now, I think I'm skewed in how many people there are, but there are sheep's and wolves. And once you learn there are wolves, you know, you become, you become pretty preoccupied with it. So, I mean, it's a weird thing to pass on to people what they should think about. But I mean, in the simplest sense, you should be able to tell yourself what the people around you want. You should be able to recognize what people want. How do you know what they want?

Well, what do they talk about? Yeah. Who do they hate? That's always a real big clue into what they want. People generally hate people who have what they want. They think it's some other thing, but in reality, they're jealous. They feel out class. Maybe they don't have the talent to be this person. So they pick the four things that are discussing about them

and they go on and says something about those things. So you can pretty much discern what people want, I think. And then you just have to ask yourself, do I think them wanting that is going to get in the way of this friendship wanting that is going to get in the way of this Friendship? Is it going to get in a way of this relationship? Is it an eye going to be someone that that triggers them because I have what they want? That's an important thing to know. Again, it doesn't have to lead to because again, no one's clean. We all want something. I don't claim to not want anything. Of course. If you and I hung out, like your wife is maybe the most striking person, I've at least ever seen on Instagram.

I mean, she's so absurdly beautiful. I won't want her to validate me if we meet in some way. I'm not asking her to cheat. I'm not going to cheat, but I can you, I need to leave there thinking, yep, I made an impression on her. Now you may chalk that up too. This guy's gonna put on a good show for us, which will be the case.

I'm gonna put on alpha show for you. And you may go, she's not gonna cheat. I mean, he's not gonna cheat on his wife. So it's all fun. I'm gonna be the beneficiary of this, but that's what I will want in that situation. Yeah. It can be a name, it can be benevolent,

it can be anything, but I think you'd be naive to think that everyone doesn't want something. And then you're kind of grading their history through the history of breaking norms and laws to get what they want. Now you're in a totally different bracket as well. Yeah, the reason why I think that is such a brilliant answer is because I think we still live in a binary world

where we generally believe, of course, I'm completely generalizing right now, this is not statistically proven, but we're not trying to do that, is that we generally believe that people either want something or they don't want something. And you just establish. Good and evil want something. And you just establish. Good and evil.

Yeah, and you just establish. You're like, well, actually, Jay, pretty much everyone wants something. And it's more important to accept that and then figure out what that is, rather than living this world of like, I can trust this person because they don't want anything. And I can trust this person.

I can't trust this person because they do want something, right? Does that... Yeah, I think that the kind of pragmatic or productive outcome is generally when you find people that want the exact same thing as you and it's not finite. Yeah. So if it's a role in one movie and you both want that, that's right for trouble.

Yeah. But if we both want something, we can both have. This is a great foundation for a friendship because this is what we will do. This will be the activity. So like you'll find, as I said, I can talk from morning to night. My friends love hypotheticals and moral issues

and like I wanna be invigorated and I wanna play. And if I find someone be invigorated, and I want to play. And if I find someone who also loves to play, well, that's awesome. That's a great foundation. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think what I value and reflecting back of what you're saying is, I just like, and I think this was part of the monk thing.

And actually more becoming that allowed me to be this way more was I just like exposing myself with as much randomness as possible or like extremes as possible or different people as possible because I just feel like I would never if you asked me what I wanted to be when I was five years old or 15 or even now when I look back at it, I would never have said the word monk. I didn't even know that the word existed I didn't have any affinity towards it So I start thinking now. I'm like well, wait a minute if I could never conceive that because I'd never met someone who was that

Then how many ideas exist in the world that I can't conceive because I have not met someone who has played around with that idea or that thought and so when I because I have not met someone who has played around with that idea or that thought. And so when I reach out to someone like you and I look at, I don't know, I don't think we have a lot in common apart from having a podcast. Oh, I bet we have a ton in common. We probably have a fair bit in common, but at least, I don't know, mate, mate, mate, I'm looking forward to figuring out what we do. It is what do we count as in common? Like, no, I'm not a brown person living in a white world.

I'm not a monk. I'm not, I don't live in wherever you live. Oh, whoey. Whoey. The fact that we both have shows where we talk to people probably says way more about you and I than any of those other things. Fair enough. You know. talks to people, probably says way more about you and I than any of those other things. Fair enough.

Yeah. But I love what you're saying because I don't personally give advice. It's not how A.A. works. All I do is I share who I am. Yeah. And you hear something in there that you think you might apply it. Great. But I'm not one to tell people.

I have nothing prescriptive to say to anyone. Other, I will often say though, I have been very grateful that my identity has been flexible. And I think I do think a lot of people could benefit because you just made the greatest point, which is you didn't know a monk was an option. So if you don't know what every single option is, don't be so locked into the one thing because there might be a better option. I didn't know what there was no such thing as a podcaster. So 20 years ago, I couldn't have aimed at being a podcaster because there wasn't one. Yeah. But my identity is flexible enough that it's like when I'm in the river and it's flown in my direction, I'll stay in it, you know? Yeah, no, I'm glad that resonated.

Yeah, for me, that's what it is. So I'm always trying to find like, oh, even also, you know, a while ago, I realized that, sometimes there were necessarily not newer ideas, but there were deeper ideas. And so I was like, let me stop looking for a new idea, but let me look for how I can deeply understand an idea because, and that's what I'm hearing from you when you're churning stuff with your

friends. How do you, how have you found a way to be playful with the people around you where you're able to entertain different thoughts without feeling forced to pick a side, defend or make someone think a certain way? Because I think that's a healthy conversation to have. Because I love the idea of, so in one sense, I have a very clear philosophy of life because of my time as a monk.

I think there are certain tenets that I ascribe to, but I also think that that time gave me an openness to accept that this idea should be able to be upgraded at any time. So if someone can give me something to upgrade my philosophy of life, I should accept it because it would be ridiculous to say, no, I know the truth and everything is his foe. So I like entertaining two ideas. How have you encouraged and how do people around you learn to entertain two ideas at once

that are seemingly contradictory, but allow them both to live. Yeah, I would imagine you and I both love that, you know, one of the crowning measurements of intelligence is being able to hold two conflicting ideas and two conflicting feelings and emotions and that, I feel bored out of my mind if I don't have some conflict in my head of thought, of emotion, all that stuff. I just abored. I mean, it might just be as simple as me being an, you know, an activity freak. Whatever it is, I will say my mother was genius.

I think I had two pretty informative experiences that have led me to where I'm at, which is one is my mother. This would always happen. Two kids would die in a drunk driving accident in my town. And the town would be furious at the driver. And the poor, or maybe the victim of the other thing, my mother would, are always her first thing would be like, Oh, the poor parents of both those kids, that poor kid driving, you know, they handed out cigars for both those little kids when they were born

and they're both here. She'd feel bad for perpetrators of crimes as much as she did the victims of crime. You know, that's a bizarre, I don't know where she got that, but I think she always forced me to imagine that there was suffering on like all sides of it. No one's like that. That was nobody's best day.

Wow. And I carried that and I liked that and it drives my wife nuts. I forced myself to imagine how the, you know, whatever, they too are a victim. And then secondly, I majored in anthropology. So anthropology is a great way to break your thinking because you walk into it with something

that's to the hottest button topic in anthropology, like in Phanicide, the Inuit used to kill their babies after they were born. This is like, there's no way you're going to accept that this isn't the most amoral, horrific thing ever. But you are required to learn about what leads to that. Don't write it off as evil, don't write off as good or bad. Why is it they would do that? An anthropologist's job is just to literally find out

how they live their life and why they live their life. What is their reason for living their life? And then you come to find out, well, wow, in their culture only the men can hunt, okay? You could argue about whether that's right or wrong, but that is the case. You also then find out, unlike most hunting and gathering societies, there's no gathering. It's ice.

The only thing they're eating is well, blubbered. So their culture is also set up that if your child doesn't grow up to provide food for you, you're going to die. So you have to have a boy as your first child, you're then free to have a gal. I'm not saying I can don't it, but it's like there's so much more to this story than in phanicide, the headline. And there are societies set up in ways that certain things make sense to those people. So cultural relativism is what it's broadly labeled that way of thinking.

And if you can just forget about the conclusion for a minute, forget about the verdict, the judgment, you might actually learn a lot about something. And I just, I think I've taken that with me. That may be the best thing I took out of there. It's just imagining that my way isn't the only way that there are some other ways that feel very wrong to me and that might work might be optimal in places. And then I just read this book. I don't know if you've heard of this book, the weirdest people on earth. Have you? I haven't heard of this. I haven't heard of this. I haven't heard of this. I have not. That sounds amazing. I can need to get that. It is mind blowing. It's about how different

the brains of people in the West are. They are different. Wow. Starting with the simplest thing. Okay, I think I can roll this out one second. So Martin Luther comes along, he says, there's no way that a priest can tell you how to communicate with God.

You can communicate with God. Step one of that is you got to learn to read. You got to learn to read this Bible. So he goes on this huge mission to make different populations literate. He's hugely successful. Prior to that, you had like top literacy rate, maybe in Germany was 5%, Martin Luther comes around.

Now you've got like 80% of people reading because of Martin Luther. Now when you read, that changes your actual brain, the structure of your brain. It occupies such a bizarre, it's such a bizarre thing to train your brain to do that you lose something. So when people learn to read, they lose some facial recognition skills. They can read less emotions. You know, it altered our brains. So if you start with

the knowledge or the acceptance that our brains don't even work the same around the world. How then could all of our conclusions work the same? How can we believe our conclusions are right? Our conclusions are correct for this brain. I don't know that they're accurate conclusions in Samoa. You know, I have such little faith in that any of us really know, and I'm comfortable with that. That's a big, I think, distinction.

Some people are very uncomfortable not knowing. I'm very comfortable not knowing. And I'll tell you, if I, I think I get asked this in interviews, like what have you kind of learned from having interviewed 250 academics or professors, you know, because it's split. It's celebrities, but then it's always academics, professors, whatever.

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Ensure that your resolution turns into ongoing progress. Listen to how to money on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. My conclusion is, anything you believe in at best, it might approach 80% correct. Yeah, yeah. I'll have an expert on, they'll lay it out, oh my God, they cracked it, that's it.

And then a month later, I have their adversary on, that person lays it out, I'm like, my God, this, this. That's it. And then a month later, I have their adversary on, that person lays it out. I'm like, my God, this, this girl's got it. I mean, we are so flash light in a cave with everything we know. And I just, I don't know, I don't, I don't think anyone should feel so certain about anything, I guess, is my conclusion. Yeah. And that's that hard part because it's like, you need some certainty to make decisions

and then you need the uncertainty to be adaptable and that's where we all are trying to have the humility to say it's a probability. Of course. I'm going to make a decision based on this probability and that's about all you're going to say other than I drop this rock and it'll fall. Anything outside of gravity, you're probably making a probability analysis. Absolutely. And I love what you said about what your mom

had that belief growing up. I mean, that was remarkable. Like genuinely, that is such an amazing thing to grow up around. I wonder, these ideas, and I know you and Kristen speak so openly about parenting. I'm like, are there some of these ideas, which are not like what I love about this, as we always hear, that there some of these ideas which are not like, what I love about this is, as we always hear,

that famous quote of, you know, we should learn how to think, not what to think. And these are always how to think, right? These are how to think. We're not telling, you're not saying, this is what you should think about. How are you introducing, or are you introducing some of these concepts or other concepts

to your kids in parenting? And what's been a successful or unsuccessful transference of ideas? I'm incessantly doing that because I don't have a goal for them. I have preferences, but I don't have a goal for them to not believe in Jesus. I don't believe Jesus is the son of God personally. It make my life probably easier with them, if I didn't have to go to church with them all the time to be with them, but I actually don't care.

All I want them to do is take in every side of everything. I just want them to be hard working in their thought. I want them to hear both sides with an open mind and an open heart and then do their synthesis. That's all I'm really looking for. In fact, this situation presents itself. So we have family members that are very religious, concerned I'm not baptizing our children. I think performing maybe a baptism in the living room when I wasn't looking. I mean, sincerely, I think that might have happened. Always bringing the Bible for kids, all this stuff. And initially, I'm like,

what, please don't pass that on to these little beautiful kids. But then I thought, you know what? I was exposed to all that, and I came to whatever conclusion I came to. They're gonna be just as able to do whatever they feels right to them. Who cares?

They can take on any information. I think critical thought will get them to where they need to be. And the only guardrails I asked, I said, you know what? indoctrinate them. Please don't introduce the concept of hell or sin. Those are the only two. I do not want a little kid ruminating at night, whether or not they're going to end up in a fiery pit. Don't think that's useful for you. So I just put like two little tiny parameters. Luckily, those people obliged and that they've left that part out. And, you know, and then we talk about it. And to me, they seem like they're thinking about every angle of everything.

And I guess as a parent, the thing I've learned to do is there's all these opportunities. They're so tempting to teach your kid something. Always, they're always right in front of you. I feel like my life revolves around atheism, it doesn't. But this happens to be two and a row stories. We have really close friends, they're very Christian. I love it for them. I'm very supportive of it.

There are children play together, their children. My daughter was over there and they prayed before dinner and she felt really uncomfortable. She felt nervous. She didn't know what to do. They all knew what to do. She felt out of sorts. She then got nervous that the one child was going

to not like her because she didn't believe the same way. And I'm learning this on a ride home. And my first thought is to go, well, look at Amy and Ryan and Chris, your mom and I, we're best friends and we think differently, right? I want to like educate her through this. And then I stopped and I just go like, oh my God, I remember that so much Lincoln. Oh my God, I remember that.

Yeah, I would be at my friend and I just start listing these times that I was in that situation, how awkward I felt and then I felt like judge and I was nervous. They thought I was going to hell, and all these things. And I honestly think in that moment, that is the decision I'm proudest about. Like, I don't need to teach her this. I need her to see this functional human being has gone through all the things she's gone through.

That's all I gotta do is make her not feel alone in these experiences, because that will somehow make her confident, oh, but it'll all work out. Yeah. So I've tried my hardest to shift from the lesson and more just sharing the experience with her. Yeah, I love them.

I'm so glad you shared that. My wife and I don't have kids yet. So definitely part of the plan. It's so tempting. You want a shortcut, them. I do. I want a shortcut, them to a four step in AA. Yeah, this can really you can figure out your fears with this thing They can't do with me. She just she would always relate to me and that just I liked I

Like not feeling alone in my experience the most. Yeah, they need to be able to create a 12 step kids version You all believe me. Oh, they'll get it. They're gonna get it through all of us And yeah, and I think you do that publicly too, right? Like I know the last year, you, you know, you spoke about your relapse and you were very vulnerable about it and you're open about it. And I, I wonder, I mean, I guess are your kids at an age yet where they're able to understand your public profile and external profile are not really. They don't kind of understand, like, are you dad and this or is it just are you dad and and how does that affect them? You know it's really

funny is well first of all they they know I'm in a like they I leave in the evenings certain days of the week and where are you going I'm going a what's that? Oh I'm an alcoholic what's that? Oh I I if I start drinking watch out can't stop. I'm ninth generation alcohol. They know the whole skinny, they know I relapsed. But what's interesting is the question you're asking is the question I thought about nonstop. Because my experience was, my parents weren't famous. My parents also didn't have money.

So my obsessions are like, what is this doing to them blah, blah, blah. And the truth is, and I'm seeing it is like, it's their childhood. There's no such thing like we are inclined to think of their experience relative to another kids, but that's almost irrelevant. Their experience is relative to their own experience and to their maybe sisters experience. The notion that they're feeling something different, because for me when I imagine what being the child of famous people would have been like

is a very different feeling. Definite. But there is no difference to them. So it's like, yeah, sometimes we're driving and mom's on a billboard. They're not impressed with mom. Mom's mom who didn't let them stay up till 10 last night. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It doesn't matter. The trickier part is in public, I'm very protective of them. So if you meet me and I'm by myself, I'm a pretty nice guy. If you meet me and I'm out with my kids, it's not your time, it's my kids time. And I'll tell you that.

It's not time to take a picture with me, it's not time to talk to me about a movie or about a podcast. It is my children's time right now, and that's whose time it is. So I don't mind having a boundary when it's for them. I have a hard time having a boundary for myself and I actually enjoy often talking to people who listen to the podcast or whatnot.

But I have to explain that to them, right? They can't just see me be very firm with people when they know me to be kind and open-hearted to people who don't want something. This goes back to the intention. So if we're bumping into strangers at a restaurant or both ordered the steak and it's delicious and I lean over and go, my God, these they can cook a t-bone here, huh?

Like there's that version of dad and then there's the version at the airport where it's like, no thank you, thank you. Like if I can see a camera coming out, it's like you cannot photograph my kid. So I have to then tell them, I'm very protective of you, this is why. I don't want your time to be robbed with your dad.

I'm gonna always protect that. I don't want pictures of you on the internet. I don't want people to know what you look like and go to your school. Like I don't want this is what's happening. So I just, I assume rightly or wrongly that they can comprehend everything. And I just tell them.

I tell them exactly what's happening in the world when they're in it. Again, from my baggage, my number one issue is being deceived. I hate being deceived. I hate people who try to deceive me. It's my number one thing. I hate it. So I just, my only commitment is I never deceiving my kids.

The second thing said, wait, how does Santa Claus get in our chimney and he, how's he getting it? There's, you said there's Billy, how many, seven billion? He's going to seven billion people. Well, no, he's not going to India because they don't believe in Santa Claus. I wouldn't even go, and I go, I'm not gonna do this to you. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna water down the best part

of your brain, which is the critical thinking side, which is saying this does not add up. I'm not gonna do it. That's brilliant. I love that. I'm personally just taking notes. This is for me, future me. This is genuinely for future me to write some of these notes

that I'm not joking. I mean that. And teach them to do something scary. That's my other, I believe in that. Like, so both my kids write dirt bikes. They're little girls. My eight year old just got a very large dirt bike and we just went riding.

And like, you can tell your kids they're capable of anything. You have to give them an opportunity to figure out they're capable of anything. You know, you telling your kid, you could be president one day. Mm, why? What have they done to demonstrate that?

Give them an opportunity to be presidential. I am so glad you said that. I literally was, I was on the phone to my friend before we, before we connected and I was saying the same thing. I was like, he's got a 10 year old and I was saying, and I don't know why I thought of cold plunges, but I did and I was like, you should take your kid cold plunges, like I was like, he's got a 10 year old and I was saying, and I don't know why I thought of cold plunges, but I did. And I was like, you should take your kid cold plunged. Like, I was like, you know, he needs to feel like he's achieved

something, he's conquered something because we were talking about this, I had something that's really fascinating for a long time as I've been trying to at least read, as you were saying, read about children and kids and even just humans, but the idea of fragility and how like over protecting someone's experience leads to fragility, not strength. And I found that word fragility and fragile

so powerful even more than weakness or lack of strength or whatever, like fragility is really interesting because you go, wait a minute, we thought that if we mollycodled and protected and enforced boundaries and barriers that were perfect, like laser fields around our kids or around ourselves, that then life would be good. I guess, how do you deal with that poking of deceit? As you said, that was what you hate as deceit, pokes through that uncomfortable barrier that you have with

it. How have you learned to be able to navigate it hell in a healthy way? Well, first off, I just think it's hilarious. You said that because we've got our daughters, they do cold plunges. Oh, nice. Yeah, by the way, not because we told them to because we model it.

It's like they see mom and dad get out of the hot tub and go make themselves miserable from time S. They just get curious. And then it becomes competitive. Who's going to do it?. Who's gonna do it? Who's afraid to do it? And then I look and I'm like, my God, these little girls do cold plunges

in this fantastic. So that's amazing. I think often you're trying to protect, oh, let me say this. I had a great head start. One, I'm six and a half years older than my sister. My mom worked nights. I write, I change diapers

with the safety pins and cloth diapers at six and a half years old. So somehow this six and a half year old did quite a bit of child rearing and she's alive. Secondly, I made her an anthropology. I'd watch all these amazing documentaries, one of them I remember from Papa New Guinea, the, all the kids that are below six who can't be useful in digging up yams are on their own the jungle. I'm telling you, they are on their own. There are two-year-olds falling out of trees. There's a six-year-old in charge and they live. So I just walked into it with

like, these little things are very resilient. I've just, I've seen firsthand they're pretty resilient. So I think I started with a little more confidence in that way. But again, I just think about what, what moment in time are you delaying this to? So I'm going to handle everything for them now. When is it their turn? Because if, if, if 18s their turn, and you send them out into the world, no one in the world is as nice as I am for them. So why is that gonna be the optimum time to fail, to struggle, to be frustrated, to not get help?

I regularly won't help them. It seems like maybe cruelty. And I'll be like, if you want it bad enough, you'll figure out how to do it. But I want competent kids. That's what I want, because I can't go with them everywhere for the rest of their lives

to mitigate every conflict. I can't do it. Yeah. Even though you'd like to. I would love to. It's my impulse. Every time they're reaching for something, I want to go grab it. I'm tall. Yeah. It's like one of my only assets in the house. But no, they got to get a stool. Go get something for

crying out. They got to keep smoking. Use tools and you can't. And again, they're giving themselves their own confidence. You're not giving it to them. You're not saying, oh, you're so smart. You're so competent. Why are you so competent? But they give it to themselves. And that, you just, I mean, that really spoke to me because I think so many kids who, and obviously as adults now who heard that, they actually felt that was something they had to live up to as an expectation or an obligation that it's like,

you're so smart. So now they had to present them. Was zero practice. Yeah, exactly, exactly you're so smart. So now they had to present them. With zero practice. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, totally. And I love that you kept saying it's something you have to give to yourself, because that's become something that is,

whenever I talk about that, I really strongly believe that, that validation, compliments, awareness, understanding. People can help to a certain degree, but ultimately it needs to come from ourselves. I saw you going about to say something when I let you, I know I have a digital. Well, I was just going to say both are true. External validation works. But it's finite.

Yes. So either you have to be on the treadmill of constantly wowing everyone to get the external validation, or you can internally validate yourself and that can be permanent, or that can be stable. Yeah, I'm fascinated to ask you this because I think you'll have a really refreshing perspective.

How, because you brought this word up earlier, how have you balanced self validation and humility and where do they fit in for you? I'm not saying they're opposites, I'm just wondering how both live in a healthy way for you because I think we're living, and I'm interested because of where we've gone. I think we live in a culture right now

that's very much like validate the people you love and like tell them that they're smart, tell them that they're beautiful. And then I come from a spiritual culture where humility was considered the most beautiful quality a human could have. Like it was the apex virtue or something. Correct. But often it led to low self-esteem as a misunderstanding of humility and it led to a self-deprecating and self-harmful behavior.

So I just want to hear your thoughts. Yeah, well, it's an incomplete word, right? Well, first and foremost, I have an older friend of mine in the program who often says it's really important to distinguish between humility and humiliation. So like those aren't the same thing. Beautiful. And I also think we all observe a ton of faux humility. And I'm prone to do it.

I'll start feeling guilty that I look, I've been lucky or the most people and I have some guilt about that. I grew up with people who didn't get so lucky. I feel I have guilt about that. So there can be a foe humility as well, but I think the true humility for me is being honest about my life, which again is a skill I learned in the 12-set program. If I look at my life and I look at the times

I got exactly what I wanted and what it led to versus the times I got the opposite of what I wanted and what it led to, it would not take a smart person to see the pattern that I'm almost 100% wrong, which is really bothering. Like I'm a podcaster because I spent two and a half years of my life directing a movie chips and it didn't do well financially, I didn't know what to do. I'm a podcaster because I spent two and a half years of my life directing a movie Chips and it didn't do well financially. I didn't know what to do.

So I did not get the outcome I wanted. It led to the thing I'm happiest doing, most proud of ever doing. So there you go. If you would ask Dex, what should happen? I would say, oh, that thing should have made $200 million and I should have made three more and I should have ultimately made $25 million

to make the third one. That would have been the path, right? Yeah. It wouldn't have been as good of a path. So I know I'm wrong. I'm consistently wrong. So I don't have a ton of confidence in my own, you know, even though I tend to be arrogant

and I have an opinion on everything, but I also know that I'm also likely to have a different opinion. Yeah. I just know this. I've changed my opinion a bazillion times over the years. So I just, I try at least now to, I propose things.

I ask questions. I don't, I try to avoid being definitive about it. I just, I wonder aloud. And then often, I try to avoid being definitive about it. I just, I wonder aloud. And then often, I wonder aloud with another person wondering aloud and we somehow navigate towards something that feels truer. Yeah, I love that. But it's just, you're na, I mean, Hawkins,

you think you're the smartest, even Hawkins? Like that guy's been disproven five times by new technology. Like, can you be the toughest guy in the world? You can't, Mike Tyson got beat eventually. Everyone gets beat, everyone's wrong. Yeah. It's an untenable position to try to take. Yeah.

Maybe it's my vanity. I'd be too embarrassed to say I know, because I'm sure to be proven wrong publicly. Yeah. No, absolutely. Time is undefeated, and then we hear about timeless realms and then you go, oh wait, time's defeated too. And so, you know, it's like, yeah, black holes are supposed to end time. Exactly, exactly. It's a perfect idea. But, Dax, you've been so generous with your time.

I've had so much fun with you. This has been a very untraditional episode of on purpose for many reasons. And that is very much been led by you and who you are and how you approach these conversations. And I really value that because I love being in a, and I wouldn't call this uncomfortable because nothing about the conversations are uncomfortable. But I love being in a new, refreshing, like a spocky environment. That's kind of how this is felt. So, I know you're landing the plane, but I have to add one thing on that topic,

which is, I'm sure you're like me, which is, I prepare. So if I am gonna interview someone, I know as much as I can know about them. But what I've learned to do in the thing I've come to love is I'll ask him how their drive over here was. That's not on the list. And that leads to nine things that I wasn't trying to steer. And then I enter a state of flow. And really I've figured out I'm only in this for the state of flow. Yes. I couldn't agree with you more. And that's

that is much better explained than what I was trying to say. So we will take your words. But that is exactly it. Yeah, we always prepare the same thing, but I try to get lost. I like getting lost. I think that's, and getting lost is so fun because that's where you find stuff that you never imagined. So I love that.

I thank you. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. So, these questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And so, Dakshab, these are your final five. Are you ready? This is a tight box for me to be in. But let's do it. This is a tight box. As you just learned, question, question number one, what is the best advice you've ever received or heard? I thought someone had stolen an idea of mine, one of the sketches I had at this theater, and I thought it ended up unsurrying it live, and that may or may not be true, but someone pulled me aside and said, if you think that's the only great idea you're ever going to have,

you should fight to the end. But if you think you have unlimited great ideas, keep it moving. Oh, that is so thank you for taking the time to think about that because that is refreshing and beautiful. We've not had that before. I love that. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever received or heard? This is a hard one because I don't take advice. I guess I guess not and it may not have

been said to you. It may have it may it may be something you heard someone tell you it may and the reason why I like this is I really want a list of pieces of advice that advice. Yeah that people can really clearly go oh gosh we hear this more often than we think. And so, yeah. I guess I'm just gonna give my own, what I said to myself at one point, which is, sure, cocaine's addictive, but you're smarter than that. That's really the advice I gave myself

that proved to be inaccurate. That's brilliant, I love that. All right, question number three. How would you define your current purpose? My primary purpose is helping people who are dying of alcoholism find sobriety. That's amazing. I don't do good on, like my wife's great

at trying to tackle enormous things. I feel very overwhelmed by an individual who calls, I kind of know how to do that. Well, that will save that for part two because I like that. We'll save that for another time. That would be a whole beautiful conversation in and of itself. Question number four, what is something you used to value but no longer have value for? Status. used to value, but no longer have value for status. Amazing. And fifth and final question, I think you'll like this because it sits in with a lot of

what we've discussed. But if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow or one habit that someone had to practice every day, what would it be? Taking responsibility and apologizing when wrong. taking responsibility and apologizing when wrong. Beautiful. Thanks, Shepard. Thanks. Thank you so much. My pleasure. This is a blast.

Oh, no, this is so much fun. Honestly, I had a great time and knowing you had a great time makes me feel good too, because I've been looking forward to this one. And like I said, huge fan of the podcast. I recommend everyone who's listening and watching to go, or listening only.

Sorry, listening. Everyone who's listening to make sure you go and subscribe to Armchair Expert if you don't already listen. And of course, check out DAX on Instagram and tag us both on Twitter and Instagram on every platform where you're listening with what resonated with you, what connected with you. I love knowing what stayed with you. I think I find it fascinating to see what items you're gonna apply What you're questioning what you're reflecting on and I'm sure Dax would love to see as well Dax I thank you for your time your energy your patience your the stillness you had in answering those last five questions I I love how you were not pushed by the pressure. I really appreciate that. And again, I really hope we get together soon.

Me too. What if you could tell the whole truth about your life, including all those tender invisible things we don't usually talk about? I'm Megan Devine. Host of the podcast, it's okay that you're not okay. Look, everyone's at least a little bit not okay these days, and all those things we don't usually talk about, maybe we should. This season, I'm joined by

stellar guests like Abbermote, Rachel Cargol, and so many more. It's okay that you're not okay. New episodes each and every Monday, available on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets. The variety of them continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share ten incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets.

Listen to season eight of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season 8 of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.