On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Debra Messing & Mandana Dayani ON: How To Talk With People Who Have Opposing Views & Coexist Without Resentment

Episode Date: August 17, 2020

Mandana Dayani & Debra Messing's passion for action & justice has cemented their bond and their collective voice. Their hit podcast, The Dissenters, is a space for honest conversations and hard questions. Today you'll see how they are helping a movement of world changers gain momentum & learn how you can be involved in making the world better. Dayani and Messing discuss overcoming fear, dealing with overwhelm and the power of showing up. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I think I heart radio, I have Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I think the very first thing you do is you turn inward And you sit with yourself and really think about what hurts your heart. When you look out at the world, what is it that makes you feel that's not right? There better way. And if you start there, then you've identified your purpose. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you who come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, one of the things that I love about the podcast is I get to connect with people that have followed for a while, that have seen, that I've appreciated,

and admired their work from afar. And then somehow, we find a way to each other and get to connect and get to find out about their incredible lives, their journeys, and what they've been through. And today's guests are Deborah Messing and Mandana Dianne for the show. Now Deborah Messing is the best known for her Emmy award winning role as Grace Adler

on NBC's Emmy winning and Golden Globe nominated comedy series Will and Grace. She's also starred in the mysteries of Laura and Smash both on NBC. Her film credits include The award winning searching along Kim P, and the wedding date, messing with return to Broadway this fall, starring in Noah Hadoz's new play, Birthday Candles. Now, Mandana Dianis, the creator and co-founder of I Am Voter, a nonpartisan movement that aims to create a cultural shift around voting and civic engagement. Its mission is to inspire and excite this generation by making voter identity mainstream. Madonna began her career as a corporate attorney at top international law firm,

Paul Hastings, transitioned into work as a talent agent and made a broad launch the Rachel Zoe collection and lead the company's initiatives in business development, digital media, strategic investments, licensing, publishing endorsements and television production. Now I'm so happy to add them both on the podcast today, so please give them a very big warm, on-purpose welcome to the hosts of their own podcast, The Descenters, produced by Deborah Messing, Madonna Diana Erick Firstist and Dia Media. Welcome Deborah and Madonna. Deborah Madonna, thank you so much. Thank you for having us here. I hope you can feel my

excitement and energy through the screen. I wish I could give you both a big hug and an honor. Thank you so much for making the time to do this. Well, we feel you through the screen. Good, I'm glad, I'm glad entrepreneur's welcome, but thank you so much for making the time to do this. Well, we feel you through the screen. Good, I'm glad, I'm glad. And like I was saying to you just before we started, you're only the second double act we've ever done. And I always find the dynamic of having two dynamic individuals really exciting.

So please feel free to talk over each other, to collaborate through your energy everywhere you like. There's no rules. so please feel free to, feel free to tell me to stop talking as well. I wouldn't start off, I want to start off because I think people are so much right now seeking connection and friendship and so many of us have been struggling with loneliness or feeling disconnected or even being surrounded by lots of people but not feeling like we're around our people right now. And I wanted to find out about how you both connected and how you've continued to stay connected.

Deborah, you said you're in New York and Madonna, you're in LA. How have you stayed connected during this time? So how did you meet and how have you stayed connected? Well, Madonna and I met for a second, about 15 years ago, and then several years ago, we were both on Nantucket Island for 4th of July. We had a mutual friend, and I walked into the house and I saw her and I was like, I know you.

Mandana however let 24 hours go by without ever even acknowledged the fact that we knew each other. It just didn't want to be the person that goes up to the famous person and is like, hi, do you remember we met 15 years ago? No, I don't remember the person I met 15 years ago. So I just didn't say anything. And then she came up to me and she was like, how did you not say that we met before? And then we spent the entire vacation together. I was like, I think I was probably one of the only families that had little kids. And Deborah, which is like was so loving and nurturing with our kids and playing with them.

And we watched a lot of TV together during the vacation. and Deborah, which was so loving and nurturing with our kids and playing with them. We watched a lot of TV together during the vacation. And then we both, I think, realized how political we are and how passionate we are about activism. And so I think that's really what started as kind of like the foundation of our friendship. And I was really beginning to start the work on I'm a voter and Deborah was just incredibly helpful in helping build and create it with me and this group of amazing women that work on the campaign every day. So I think that's kind of how it all started.

And then we fell in love. And because I was filming Willing Grace out in Los Angeles, basically we were spending every week and together. I basically was adopted by her family while I was out there. And the last three years have been really difficult, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, because of how divisive everything is. And we just started very organically sending each other articles and links to people who

inspired us with the intention of sort of, you know, lifting each other up, you know, because when it gets overwhelming, sometimes you just feel like all the vitality just drains your body and you feel like, I don't know, can I keep going? And so these links and these people, maybe, oh my God, did you see this person? Oh, wait, wait wait I have something and then This like pile of you know names of like extraordinary people and then Pause pause one second so Deborah but I stay up till six in the morning every night Deborah doesn't sleep at all so I will wake up at six in the morning because that's when my daughter's wake me up and I will have at six in the morning, because that's when my daughter's wake me up.

And I will have a library of like a hundred of the best cat and dog videos, like ever on this planet. Some elephant in Africa that she has been monitoring for the last two years who just had a baby or like took a bath. And then it'll be these like incredible activists from around the world that are doing amazing things. And just by the way, the spectrum of the content that she sends my way is pretty spectacular. But we realized how important it was to have these wall models and to see the incredible things that other people are doing.

Because I think all of us have very different expectations of what it means to be an activist, or what it means to be someone that gives back. And I think ultimately one day we thought like we should just spell some of the misperceptions around what it is to be an activist. Because you know it's something like Glenn and Doyle is a friend of ours who is on our first episode said like activism is something you do in conversation on a phone with your mom at the bus stop in a PTA meeting. Like, you can be an activist in so many ways. You don't have to start an organization. And that I think really sat with us for a long time. And we're such nerds. So like for us, these people are like the biggest celebrities in the world. And it kind of started as a joke.

Like, hey, if we launched a podcast, we we could meet these people we can make them talk to us I'm like we would get there so many times I'm sitting in a room and answer all of our questions And so that that was like the first thing But I think we don't have to air it. They'll never know like let's just say we have a podcast and then we can just email all these people, like from around the world, and just be like, can you talk to us? And then we really started to put a list together and our friend owns the media and I emailed her

and I was like, hey, if we wanted to do this, would you do it? And she's like, of course. And then all of a sudden, we had a podcast and we put together like our dream list of who we wanted to speak with. And I think it was really important for us with this goal of kind of really showing what activism is, was showing people that are challenging and confronting, you know, the status

quo in so many different subjects. So whether it was like gun safety, environmentalism, LGBTQ rights, you know, animal rescue, there's so many ways for people to show up. And people said yes, which was incredible. And these conversations just like completely blew our minds. There's so many videos I have of Deborah with her jaw just open. Like on the floor for 10 minutes at a time when I would be like, hello? The thing that I can honestly say is, you know,

we are such big nerds that we have no filter. So if these people say something extraordinary, we are screaming or we're crying, or, you know, it's just, we are responding as if anybody in your audience was in the room and responding. Basically, we have zero chill. And we realized, you know, it was going to be launching during the pandemic. And we just really, it was important that we put something out there that was putting light into the world. That was giving people some permission,

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You're even going to a Zoom call. I'm like, this is amazing. Like I wish I was in Nantucket that weekend and got to spend it with both of you better. Tell me about how I find that, and I love the way you both speak about activism. I feel like it's very refreshing, and at the same time I do feel that it's very real and genuine and authentic to who you are.

And I guess my first question is, you said that you both just sparked and found that you both just sparked and found that you both had this activism in common. But I find like for a lot of people, they actually struggle to share their opinions and beliefs and their values with each other, especially even in small circles where you can be living with someone or friends with someone and not have a clue what their personal opinion or belief or activism is on a subject. I don't have you here, but I hear a lot of that community of like I just had no idea that this person felt this way

or I had no idea that my mother or my father or my cousin or whatever it is had had this challenge or a limiting belief or battle or battle, how have you both encouraged open honest conversations even when you disagree with each other or had different views, or how have you encouraged other people to just start having those, like you said with Glenn and by the way, I love Glenn and she's been on the podcast too. And it's, you know, yeah, in the definition she gave, like at the bus stop on a phone call, how do you encourage people to start feeling like they can have those conversations

with confidence? Well, Monica, I think you have to answer this because you, your journey to America, I think, shaped a lot of how you can see it. Yeah, I was actually going to say two things. I think, on one hand, in so many times when you're an activist,

like you just feel like you're standing naked in the middle of the street, right? Because every, you're, you know, I know that my beliefs irritate some of my friends and some of my family members. And I'm such a people pleaser. So for me to walk into a room knowing that I've offended somebody or someone doesn't agree with me and to be able to be okay with that, I think was a very long journey for me to become okay with. So I understand the hesitation

because you don't want to irritate people. Like we're kind of, we're bred to be peacekeepers. Culturally, I was always raised that way too. You know, I came from like a very traditional family and you're a woman and you're supposed to be the peacekeeper of the family. And so it took me a long time to be okay with it, but at the same time, I think also knowing that I'm entering a room as myself was incredibly liberating, to not pretend to be something

that I was. I think my whole life I had struggled with, I have to be perfect. And so I created these presentations. I would, there was the representative of Mandana that you would meet, and she was perfect, and she that you would meet and she was perfect and she was so smart and she was like the coolest person ever, but it was so fake and keeping up, it up was driving me insane and so I understand the fear of speaking up because you know that you will disappoint some people, but it is so liberating to actually be who you are and it's so weird, it's so empowering. Like I feel more powerful than I've ever felt.

I have acquired incredible people in my life. You are now going to be my friend. But, you know, and you all of a sudden feel like you're surrounded by all these other amazing people. And that is kind of how you, that security is so refreshing. You know, I came to this country to Dabbers Point which came as religious refugees.

So I was about six years old and that was very formative. I think I was always raised with this hustle of just like fake it till you make a pretend to be American, pretend to fit in, like just hustle, hustle, hustle. No one's here to save you if you fall. And so I think that made me work harder than most people and made me really, really ambitious to like live the American dream.

And we did like my brothers are surgeon, I was a lawyer, it was amazing, we did all the things. But I think in a weird way, I was never raised with a question of like, what actually makes you happy? No one ever asked me that. Everything that made me happy was like, that's a hobby. Oh, you like those things.

You can do that on Sundays at 4 p.m. But it was very much like, have a job, be safe, blah, blah, blah. And I never really learned to challenge my own beliefs or the things that I didn't agree with culturally, with my family, with the things that I was taught. And I think it took a really long time to actually like honor my own voice.

But it also took the courage of people like and friends like Deborah and other active, Sophia Bush, who I know your friends with, who's a very close friend of mine, would just be like, say it girl, you got it, just go. And that kind of encouragement, and that's why community is so important. It's so, so, so important.

Shannon Watts, who has been a friend of both of ours, really my mentor through all of my activism, is someone I check in with all the time. And I'm like, is this okay? And that is, I think, in this space of really gaining your voice and honoring your voice, having friends that push you and just tell you to keep going, that tell you it's okay. Because you make mistakes as an activist, and you know this.

You'll say things, they'll hurt people's feelings, you say things, and sometimes they're incorrect, and having your friends show up for you and be like, you know what, that wasn't cool. And this is the way to do it. It's so important and to have people that say, you know what, learn from it, and keep going, because we still need you.

And I think surrounding yourself with people who will be honest with you, but also hold you up so you can keep going, you're so important. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is the destination for all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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The psychology of your 20s, hosted by me, Gemma Speg, now streaming on the iHotRadio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever, you get your podcasts. I'm Jay Shetty, and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it.

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because I think for a long time I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw, real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours.

Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. Thank you so much for sharing that about your background as well. It's truly inspirational and it's amazing to hear how much you had achieved to then question it all. And I always think that requires a lot of courage and strength to do that. And so I just want to take a moment to recognize that. I think you're watching right now that the hardest thing to do is achieve something

and then the hardest thing to do is achieve it and then question everything you've achieved. And then find and create a new path for yourself. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I want to dissect so much of it, but I feel like you were just about to say something Deborah, so I don't want to cut you off. What were you saying? I was just saying the importance of mentors, the importance of finding the leaders that speak your language or who inspire you and to follow their lead and to learn. I think it is a learned skill to speak your truth. I'm already 50. your truth. You know, I'm already 50 and it took probably the first 35, 40 years of my life

to finally be okay with people not agreeing with me and not liking that I'm voicing my truth. And, you know, like what Madonna was saying, you know, so many of us, you know, we are people pleasers. And it is suffocating. And it really does strip you of a capacity for joy, I think. At least that was the case for me, especially as a professional actress. To get a job, you are constantly dancing as fast as you can and you are performing, trying to be nice, trying to be amiable, trying to be that person, that one person, that person wants to work with. And it, living in that head space unhealthy for me and was,

I was choosing to sacrifice my self-esteem, essentially, because by silencing yourself, you are saying that your voice has no value. And as soon as I, for me, for me, it was professional. It was being pushed too far. And finally saying, no, that's not okay. I must be respected, I respect you. And being okay with whatever fallout happened afterwards. And that has happened many times, you know times in my adult life.

And I think I realize now, you know, the people that will not, cannot tolerate a different point of view, are not people, they're not my people, you know. You know, I was raised with inclusive as a exclusivity being, you know, at the center of everything. And so for me, it's like, yes, you can have one opinion, I can have the other. We could have a very passionate debate about our different points of view. But we can still at the end of that conversation say, I hear you, it

just doesn't sit right with, it's just doesn't, it's not my truth. But I still love you and I still respect you. And God bless, you know, and yeah, I can't believe. Right? Yeah, I love hearing that because I think, and I'm so glad we're having this conversation and by the way, I'm ignoring all of my notes and completely just in included with conversation. But that's because it's going in such a, flowing in such a beautiful, natural, and organic way. But what you said, Debra, and Mandana,

what you were saying also is like, I feel that so often activism can become very attacking defense. When actually, and what I'm hearing, and by the way, you can totally correct me, and I'm here to learn from both of you. So please completely tell me that I'm not hearing it, right? But what I'm hearing is that often we see as an attacking and defense, but where I'm hearing from both of you, I was talking about a friend today this morning who was talking about this and literally said these words to me. He said, you know, so much of activism is attack and defense,

but actually what we need is understanding and compassion and that non-judgment aspect that you're both mentioning of like being able to be open to the fact that other people will have different beliefs and being able to hold that space in our conversation because I feel like the other extreme of like cancel culture is actually more, I would love to get your thoughts on cancel culture without my own and minor that, and Madonna, you said this, you said, you know, we all make mistakes as activists. And so when we run into things like cancel culture,

we run into things like attacking or defensive activism. Often what we end up doing is, we end up closing the doors on people to actually change and have an opportunity to adopt a new mindset. Yeah. Or my beliefs kind of like, I'm okay with someone not having the same viewpoint as me,

but I believe I need to be patient for there to be an evolution of ideation, not that they learn mine, but that we find some way not to agree, but that there is a space for growth. Does that make sense? Totally. We talk about this quite a bit too. I think there's two things actually that you just brought up. One is, I think some people come to a conversation and they don't want to be wrong. So they don't want to hear what you have to say because what you're saying goes against

what they believed and for them to admit that means they have to admit that they may have had the wrong opinion and they just double down. And that is just something that I think just requires like time for people to feel comfortable letting go of and being okay, being wrong. And that person I find is very hard to convince in the moment. And they'll take time and usually empathy and compassion. And it's really like we're all just people. All of stories.

I think that's all these stories, all these activism is just people like it's kindness. It's what I teach my five-year-old. It's activism is just kindness in a more formal way, right? If you all just focus on caring about other people and showing up for them, then the world feels very different. I think with cancel culture, we talk about this quite a bit. Obviously, their spectrums and it depends on what it is, but for the most part, I think a lot of us say things, and it's hard. I don't know everything, Dupor doesn't know everything.

Most activists don't know everything. We're going to make mistakes. We're taking risks every single day to stand up for people's rights. We may call it the wrong thing. We may spell it incorrectly. Like don't cancel people for stuff like that. It's not okay. It's really hard to do that work.

And sometimes I, you know, all confront someone will confront me about something. And I'm like, okay, well, you try doing what they're doing. And come back at me and tell me how easy it is. I mean, it's, you know, someone was getting mad at Shannon the other day. I'm like, she's going against the NRA. Like, it's not that easy. And I think there is, there, there just has to be some patience with people because we are going to lose a lot of the good guys. If you don't give them an opportunity to learn from the mistakes and grow, I don't, I think most of these people have very good intentions and I do believe that matters.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I also think that the source of this, this combativeness of in terms of opposite ideas, I think it's all fed by fear. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. That's why we choose to attack or defend, right?

It's almost like animalistic in that sense of territorial nature that we can sometimes mimic in our own lives. But let's say like, I know that my community and audience can learn so much from both of you and they already are. And I know so many of them want to be activists or want to be activated to do something. Can you give them some guidance and advice on where you start that journey? Because I feel like we've talked about so many people get scared and fear does one of two things.

It makes you shout the loudest or it makes you become the quietest. Yes. Fear does that. Fear makes you high. So cute. You just jump on and do all this thing. And so it's like fear doesn't drive us in a positive. It can spot positivity, but it can't sustain positivity. And that's what I find with fear as an emotion. You can get you

active, but if you had to give people a step-by-step process of how you feel that they can get activated, how would you suggest that? And that's to both of you, sir. Well, I think the very first thing you do is you turn inward. And you sit with yourself and really think about what hurts your heart. When you look out at the world, what is it that makes you feel that's not right? There has to be a better way. And if you start there, then you've identified your purpose. Your cause is your purpose.

And then if you feel shy about taking a step, it's help the helpers. Really, it's finding the people who are doing the work that you admire and just saying, I want to be near you. How can I help you? Because you'll learn so much just being a part of it, even from the outside, and eventually that will build your confidence and it will give you a voice and you will be able to take the next step. I love that great great piece of it. I've been dying before we dive into yours as well. I just wanted to reflect on a couple of those. I love the idea of going inward first.

For me it's been really interesting to go inward first and be like, okay, well, where am I demonstrating what I'm being an activist for, where am I actually acting wrongly in another area of my life? So, you know, like discrimination as a subject, if someone is not being discriminating in a particular particular of their life, maybe I am in another of my life and I'm unconscious, it's an unconscious bias that exists there. And I think going inward is such a powerful way because it sparks compassion automatically because you're like, oh wow, I had it too,

I have that challenge too. But I also love what you're saying about, really having that joining of another community or another team that's doing it because sometimes I think we feel so alone that we have to start something. And Madonna, you referred this earlier, like, you know, you feel like you have to do all on your own, you have to feel like it's a lonely path to go and build your own, you think you have to go and build your own charity or build your own foundation and supporting someone else's can be a great start. Yeah, I love that.

And down to any other thoughts that you wanted to add to that? I think to your point about failure, you know, I hear this a lot about people are afraid of failing. And I always expect that you can't fail in activism because anything is more than nothing. Failing is not honoring what it is that keeps you up at night. And so, I mean, to Debra's point, there are so many people doing amazing work. I got a DM yesterday from someone that was like, I'm a graphic designer. Do you need help? I cannot tell you how badly we needed help yesterday on graphic design. It was like, God

send. We were so happy. And maybe, you know, do that two hours a week and just start and you'll learn about the organization. And now you're volunteering for them. And then you can do more and you can do more and you can meet more people and there's so many ways to just show up. There's so many communities that you can join just by texting a phone number and then all of a sudden you're getting messages of ways that you can volunteer and ways to show up and community is, again I keep saying, but it is so important. When we started, I'm a voter. It was like, I was identified and need and all that happened was I emailed 25 of the smartest people I've ever worked with and was like, can we all meet on Sunday? And then it all happened. Nothing to do with it. All I did was get everyone together. And

I think that time together regularly, you realize that all of a sudden these are your people. They're your friends. They're like, we help each other in business. We show up for each other. We always rally. And I think just anything I've ever regretted in my life was something I didn't do because I was afraid of it.

There's only regrets in life. Like I just wish that I had gone harder for the things that I was scared of. And to your point about racism, we're in a flashpoint right now. This is a turning point in our history. And there are a lot of people who are waking up. I think what has shown me is that we're all students all the time. It doesn't matter how old we are. And I may feel like my heart is full of love and compassion and I have committed decades of my life to helping people,

but obviously I'm a white privileged woman and so I have an implicit bias and I have never been educated. I have never taken the responsibility on myself to educate myself. And now, because of this moment, I have all of these new books and a new vocabulary to talk about something that I thought for the bulk of my life wasn't really an issue for me. And then all of a sudden, it was like the curtain came up and it was like, oh no, no, no. Okay, now it's accountability. It's my responsibility to be accountable.

And I think that also plays into that feeling of wanting to get involved. It's just being a part of the global community. I remember Mandana called me right when the crisis on the border was starting. And she just got on a bus and went down to the Mexican border just to witness it, to see it with her eyes, to see the children, you know, to literally just could not believe it. It was just no part of my brain could reconcile that this was happening in my life. And that wasn't her issue, but she just saw something that was, it, it, it, it, it, it to, she had to participate in some way. And it changed her forever, witnessing it.

You know, I do think the thing that I struggle with when you talk about people who have opposite views coming and finding a space where they both can coexist. I personally am struggling right now with, for an example, of the Mexican border, you know, the idea that there are children in cages. Like as a mother, that just destroys me. That keeps me up at night. And so I can't imagine anyone who would support putting children in cages and stealing them from their parents. But there are people who are just as passionate

about that being the right thing. And so with that example, I don't know that there is a space for us. I think that we could say, I disagree with you, I disagree with you, but, you know, to come together and to sort of, um, to take some of each other's points of view and fold it into hours. I think that there are certain things where that, that just is not possible. Or at least it's not possible for me right now in my life. Yeah. No, no, I get that. That's a, that's a really important point to raise. And there's always going to be some things when you look at them through that lens.

It's impossible, right? Like none of us can sit here and figure out what's going through someone's mind. And I think, Mandono, when you talk about being there, can you tell us a bit more detail about what your experience was and what it was that really like pushed you and you know that movie moment that's Deborah was referring to. Yeah that day changed my life. I had my daughter, my second daughter and she was a month and I mean a couple months old and I was home on maternity leave so I was just kind of in this natural pause which I never had been before. As someone who came to this,

coming to America is very scary. Like when we landed in New York, New York is one of the scariest places in the world to go through. It's this huge city, you know, we didn't speak any English. We had no idea where we were going. We had no money.

And all I did was just hold my mom's hand. And that was like, I was gonna be okay. Like we had no idea what we were gonna do. We didn't know what tomorrow was gonna bring, but like, I had my mom, I was going to be okay. Like, we had no idea what we were going to do. We didn't know what tomorrow was going to bring, but like, I had my mom, I was six years old, and it was going to be fine. The idea that someone so vulnerable, that they would travel through for months,

through forests and water, knowing they could die, to come to America for the same reasons we all did, which was to have a chance at a better life, to have safety, to have security, to have health care. And then somebody would take your kid away from you, and for the kid, take your mom away from you, and you just went through the scariest experience of your life, and you are in a completely unknown place, and you probably don't speak the language, you don't know anyone here and you have no money left. I cannot understand is a human rights issue, it is not a political issue, there is no way

I can have a conversation with someone that can say that that is justified. It was entirely punitive and you do not punish children like that. That kid will never be the same. That I still remember how horrifying the experience was of living in a ward, having to sleep downstairs during bombings. I mean, the idea that we put these people in these, and gave them like aluminum foil blankets, and they had no idea where their parents were,

as a mother, when you're in the grocery store and your daughter, like my daughter turns the aisle, and I don't know where she is for one second. That one second is a hundred years. Like that is such triggering pain. And for these, we've lost some of these children. Like we have never found them. They like wrote their names on a post-it note and gave it to someone and it was like Martha. Like what? We don't know where some of these kids are. We've never reunited them with their families.

Some of these kids have been orphaned. It was just, and I was looking at it, and I'm like, but this is America. America is the greatest place in the world. America saved my family. America, I was always raised like America is the greatest thing in the world. And I love America.

And I believe that at a true patriot challenges America, right, we uphold it to its potential. And so it's okay to say that we're doing things wrong, but it's also important to fight for what is better. And I just got on a plane and I went to Texas. That was where the first camp was where these kids were being held. And I was like, I need to see this.

I can not believe it. I couldn't believe that that was happening. And then I quit my job and started doing all the things. But it was, it just was one of those moments where you realize like, what is happening is bigger than me and whatever aspirations I have to do whatever it was I thought at that time was more important. Wow, I mean, yeah.

I mean, thank you again for sharing that. It's just just hearing it like, I mean, yeah, I mean, thank you again for sharing that. It's just hearing it like, you know, it's so real just hearing it. And it's there's no part of it that can feel normal or okay or comfortable to even hear it. And it's what's so hard, I feel, and I'm trying to just really share with you what I'm hearing from so many people and that's kind of I'm just trying to be in that learning seat from both of you. I think for so many people they're just like I'm so overwhelmed by everything going wrong in the world right? We talked about it right at the beginning and it's like yes I'm just so overwhelmed by everything that's going wrong like this is going wrong and the political stuff directly is going wrong.

And then I've got challenges in my own family and the economy is struggling. And that kind of like paralyzes a lot of people. Yeah. And you just feel de-abiltated by all of this because you just like so much pressure and so much overwhelm. And then you want the news and you turn on the news and you don't have the internet. And you're getting it's correct. And then you're trying to do research and you turn on the news and you don't have the information you're getting is correct and then you're trying to do research and you struggle. Can you tell us some people or places

that you've started to and you first work about mentors and people in your lives who have been the people in the places or the books that have you feel have really given you both an insight into reality or how can people get as close to reality as possible so that they don't feel missing form or overwhelmed, which sometimes can be very real and sometimes can be excuses, right? We both know that they can be both for us. Sometimes they're just crutches and we're just like, ah, you know, I don't really have time or it can't be bothered. And then sometimes it's real. It's just like, whoa, I just, I'm an empath that I'm feeling the pain and it's a lot.

And so what have you found for you and the people that you're working with to help you push out from that despite just, for me, it's just seeing the pain. Like for me, it's like hearing and seeing the pain just makes you want to rush there. But what have been some of the guides in that journey? Who are those people? What are those places?

What are those books? What are those communities or organizations where you see that happening? Well, I mean, we've we've mentioned Shannon Watts, you know, we've we learned so much about the pain of gun violence and the impact it's had on our children from her, Glennon Doyle, representative Adam Schiff, who gave that beautiful, closing speech at the end of the impeachment about, the America that we all deserve, that we have yet to attain. These are people who, when they speak,

it comforts me and I trust them and I feel, I feel like I'm learning every time I follow them. I also, you know, I'm on Twitter, I was, I had to be on Twitter because of my job. I hadn't for years. And what I've done is I just have started to follow professors and professionals in our government, people who are professionals in the health department, right now with COVID, just trying to understand and to go to the source to experts so that I feel that I have a touchstone because we don't know.

Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is that, you know, for the people that use it as a crotch or as an excuse, I'm like, I get it. I don't like paying my mortgage. There's some things like you're just an adult and you have to do and you should know what's happening in the world. The baseline, it's important to be informed.

I do think acknowledging your mental health and how you're responding to things is really important. So there are days where I see Deborah and I'm like, it's too much, turn you turn off your phone, turn off your computer, like shut it down and like go hang out with your son and watch a movie. And so I do think that when you are two over miles, you do need to honor that and kind of take a pause.

I think, you know, it's hard because the news can feel very divisive, you know, it is so like, click baity and you know, it's ratings driven now that it just feels like you're watching like a never ending football game of people just screaming at each other. And so, I mean, I personally followed, in Sotis Dabra, that we followed Jessica Yellen. She does news not noise.

And so her whole platform is amazing. And she, you know, I text her all day. And I'm like, is this supposed to bother me? And she'll be like, no, that news not noise. And so her whole platform is amazing. And she, you know, I text her all day and I'm like, is this supposed to bother me? And she'll be like, no, that's not important. It's okay. So people like her, I am Privarara, who's also someone we covered. He, you know, the way that Pri thinks about justice

in America is so, I just admire it so much. And so I really respect the way that he talks about the political issues that happen and how they affect everybody. And kind of how it doesn't really feel partisan when he speaks about it, it really feels like he comes at it from like a patriot who loves America, who understands the foundation of law and like, and how we need to uphold the integrity of America.

And I would say, I don't know, I mean, there's a million more, but I would say those for me are, sorry. Stacy Abrams, Stacy Abrams is the one who I look to and follow, and I try to follow by example and learn from her. and I try to follow by example and learn from her. I think that there are shining lights everywhere

if you look for them, but Mandana is absolutely right. I mean, I'm an empath, so I get completely overwhelmed. And I can just get stuck and feel like I have to do more. I have to do more. Oh my God, did you see this and this and this and this and this? And I do need to turn to the people who I love and love me and know me to say, okay, you're not in a good space right now. You need to just stop and go play the piano because that heals your heart, you know?

And watch stupid television for a while. I do think that- More knows we are very good at that. And I'm really good at sleeping. She's very good sleeping. That's a great skill. Sleeping is a great skill. Well, what, yeah, it's been, you know, and I'm grateful for the way we've taken this conversation,

because I do think that what you're both doing and what you both stand for is community and uniting for change, which I believe are heavy topics to talk about. I can see that in the emotion on your faces and just the worries you're telling. These are heavy topics, but the problem is that if we don't take them on, they're not getting any lighter. Right. And I think that's something that we can all agree on that. If something's heavy and you don't pick it up, it stays heavy and gets heavier.

But to your point, Jay, I think the thing that we try to talk a lot about in the podcast also is this like ask questions. I think people don't want to sound dumb. And so they're afraid to ask the things that they don't know. And the activists and the communities that are speaking actually are thrilled that someone's asking them. We had someone on who's talking about what it felt, their whole journey being a trans athlete. And we were like, sorry, can you explain to us like pronouns? How does that work? Like, how do you do ask someone what their pronoun is? Like, do you share yours? Like, how do you know, Deborah presented a real life example?

What was the right one? And he was like, thank you so much for asking. I'm so thrilled to share this. And that has been our experience every single time. And so sometimes fear becomes this barrier to you actually really even evolving your empathy in an issue. And so I think one of the other things

I should have mentioned earlier is to just like, ask questions. Yeah, who on your podcast has surprised you the most with a perspective or an insight that kind of like shocked you in a state with you or a or a moment or an experience where you're just like, oh like that, you know, that really made sense to me or that really broke through the noise for me. For each of you, I'd love one from each of you, be grateful. Well, I think Amanda and Min, she is not yet 30, and she was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. She was a student at Harvard and was raped in her senior year,

and the justice system was not there for her and she realized that a law in Massachusetts didn't exist that should exist and and she said well so I just decided to write it myself like what you just said you're like and I looked at her and I'm like, wait a second, wait a second, you're 20, you're a survivor of a terrifying attack, you don't have any structure or any support system and your impulse is, I will do it myself. And she said, well, obviously, I don't know the language, so I went to Harvard Law School and I found a professor

and I said, look, this is what I want to do. Will you help me write this law? And he said, sure. And it was past 100% if it was past. And now there are how many laws in 30, I don't know something, it's crazy. It's amazing. What is that? Incredible.

You know, she kept writing a survivor's bill of rights that is now being incorporated all over the country, but it started, you know, it was that moment of her just saying, all right, well, I'll just write it myself. That really just, I think I think I had that reaction because deep down, I don't think of myself as a leader. I think of myself as a student who is willing to work really, really hard. And so for me, someone is a leader. Someone is a leader when they say, I will write the law. And I just have, until that moment, it never even occurred to me that I could

do that. And here's this 20-something-year-old who did it. I didn't know that story. I'm so glad that your podcast and your conversations are another thing, things like that, for ever to realize, because you're spot on, Deborah. It's like until you know someone has done it, you don't even think about it. You don't even think about who makes the laws unless you've been law school, but not then you just, you know,

you have no idea. That's amazing. That's absolutely incredible That's that's absolutely impressive. What episode was that out of interest just so that my audience will check it out if that was our second one right after Glennon. Okay, amazing. Everyone, then you heard that that's one that I'm going to go listen to straight after the podcast. So I really, really hope that you guys go and listen to that one. That that's she is honestly amazing. Oh, by the way, we forgot to add she calls herself a civil rights astronaut.

So she found her way into an internship at NASA. And everything that she does is informed by her beliefs in NASA and so by space travel. And I was like, what are you saying? I mean, the whole time, Debra and I were like, what is she talking about? This is the craziest I've ever heard anyone say. Um, but it was really,

by the way, she still intends to go to space. Yeah, that's like where she's going. I believe that. I believe that. That was just a little trippitary on her, on her, you know, river of life. She's like, that's not really my thing. You know, I've, I've created two different, you know, I mean, it was nuts. Mandana, what about you?

Yeah, Mandana, I want to hear you as a book. Honestly, I don't know. I, to answer your actual question of when I was most surprised was not what I thought I would say, but I think it was Zach's gal, because I went into that episode. So it never night each of a crush. And we were like, okay, in our 20s, since we really did this to meet these people, we were each gonna like pick one person that we were just like obsessed with and dying to me

and who's also doing amazing work. And so hers was this incredible man named Zach Skow and he's the rescue savior and he's created this thing called Marley's Mads and res-rescue like thousands of animals. And he always rescues like the dogs that, you know, nobody really wants to rescue or. And he, so I like the dogs that, you know, nobody really wants to rescue or, and he, so I went into that episode, it's like, okay, this is Dabra, I didn't really put so much

thought into it, and I just kind of sat down to listen and his story. I mean, he was suffering from addiction and had liver failure and was basically on hospice and was told that he was going to die and went home to die and was at a point where nobody, I mean, everyone in the world had given up on him. And he talks about this moment where he knew that his life was ending and he had contemplated suicide so much and nobody even knew he existed anymore

and he was walking into the bathroom and he turned around and I could just, so you could visualize it as he was speaking but he was like, I turned around and I looked over my dogs. We're looking up at me like I was the sexiest thing in the entire world because they still saw me and I was still in there. And I was like, you know what, I'm not going to take my life. I'm going to go take them on a walk. And the next day went on a longer walk and a longer walk. And you know, we think of him as a rescue guy, but his dogs rescued him.

And he speaks about how, and he does a lot now with rescuing animals and working with people in prisons and helping them become dog trainers. But his whole concept was about we as society have people, animals that we consider the throwaways. They're just beyond repair. We give up on them. They're in prison, we just kind of write them off.

They're animals, they're missing a leg. We kind of write them off. And I've done that're missing a leg. We kind of write them off. And I've done that in my life. When he said that, I realized, like, I have a family member, you know, that, very distant relative that I just been like, you know, I just don't think. It's going to, you know, there's much to do with her. And I felt so horrible in that moment because I do realize that so many of us give up on other people and this idea that every life, every human, every animal, everyone is worth fighting for and advocacy. I had not expected the conversation to go there at all. Debra was hysterically crying. And of course, he was crying. And I was blown away by that conversation. That's amazing. Wow. I love that one too. That's, yeah, it's, it's so interesting to hear about people that we all don't ever hear about enough of. You know

what I mean? Like the people that you're mentioning, it's almost like these are not people that set out to be heroes or they're not people that set out to be. Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, you know, we referenced them, referenced to the people that we interview as accidental activists. The intention was never there. They just, that something happened and they had to do something and they did it.

And that's what made change their lives. But yeah, these are not like sexy, flashy people. These are just people like you and me. Yeah, that's a minute. I guess that hearing both of those stories just almost like fills me up with hope. It's almost like, you know, like when we started this conversation, I completely ignored all my notes, but when we started this conversation, which is a good conversation. It was a bad. Yes, the best. Yeah, like when we started this conversation and you start seeing it, you know, you're having

a very deep, heavy discussion, you know, we're hearing about stories and backgrounds and challenges and issues. And then all of a sudden, you share these two amazing stories and I'm like, I feel uplifted, like I feel full from, from the belief that like there are people out there that I can either support or become because I care. And that's all it is. It's like I care. Like either I'm passionate about something

or either I've experienced a pain of something. And that's going to push me into action. And there is hope. What gives both of you hope? Because hearing those stories gave me a lot of hope. And so the question that came to me with both of you, who are, you're looking at him today, you're on the news, you're speaking about it.

If you have a conversation, you're researching, you're supporting activists, what gives you hope? And what makes you feel like good is happening and coming and that there is movement. Well, I can say that the people that I've met doing the dissenters absolutely have given me the most hope because what they've shown me is that there are heroes everywhere. We just don't know them. And these heroes are working to make the world better today, right now. And that's what makes me maintain hope is really, really believing that there are all of these people around the world who are

doing the work that I'm not doing, but is incrementally, even in the midst of a global pandemic, everyone is scared. There's still people, you know, making inroads and things are going to get better. I'm an eternal optimist. So I think that part of going back to kind of my, those formative years of my life and transitioning and coming to America,

I think I've always felt this profound sense of luck. Like the only thing that was different from me and all the other people that couldn't leave was just pure luck. And so I think my whole life I've felt this need to help the luck of other people, like help balance whatever it was that tipped me over to this side of it.

And I think when you think about people in society and community, everyone can share a little bit of their luck. And I think a you think about people in society and community, everyone can share a little bit of their luck. And I think a lot of what we're trying to do is elevate these voices and prove that everyone has a story. Every single one of us has a story. And your problems are the biggest problems to you. And so it's like being able to look at someone in the eye and have compassion and empathy and find a way to see, like, can I help you with that? Is there anything I can do?

It's like when you're a kid and everyone teaches you to like, help your neighbor with their groceries across the street, right? It's like, it's that same thing. You're just, it's just a little bit more of a grown-up, right? It's like, what else can you do to show up for other people? And I think when you hear these stories, there's so many ways to create these tremendous

changes in the world. And there are so many amazing people to continue to learn from that, I don't know, it's all hope to me, right? I just think that there's still so much work to be done. And so I'm just focused on what else can we do? What else can we build? How are we going to do this? How are we going to grow this thing?

I don't know. I think it's just, like I'm a lawyer too, so there's just part of me that's very pragmatic, that's like, what are we gonna build? What are we gonna grow, what are we gonna do? Let's fix that, you know, what is the fix? Let's focus on the solutions. And I'm still, I think, unlearning a lot of my childhood

things that I think were hard, but I never realized how much they prevented me from using my voice. So I think it's continuing to empower other people to just be who they are. Yeah, I think... Corny is that sounds, but. No, not at all.

I, what kind of stuck with me when you were saying that is part of what gives you hope is being a part of the solution and seeing people step up and change. Like it's almost like you've got to be around the change to believe it's happening. And for a lot of us, we're not allowed around the change we're around the problem, we're hearing the problem, we're reading about the problem

and therefore the problem just we're hearing the problem, we're reading about the problem, and therefore the problem just goes really big, whereas if you've ever gone out to help a refugee, if you've ever gone out to feed a kid who doesn't have food or if you've gone out, if you've done that and you've seen the change in that person's smile and their eyes and their life and you've seen that, then you start to believe that there is change and change is possible because I think sometimes we get so lost in statistics and numbers and we start thinking, oh, well, one person, what does that matter or 10 people? What does that matter? But all of it matters because for that person, it's their whole life.

But you could also change that statistic, right? And that's where my brain keeps going with people. I'm like, maybe the problem is there because we're not showing up. We can fix, we can improve the climate crisis if we show up. And we can change so many of the things that bother us if we voted. I mean, there's, you can't, I'm like, it's not okay for you to sit and be upset if you're not going to do the work to fix it. And so, you know, it's really just encouraging people to lean into it and just like show up, show up for your country,

show up for your issues, show up for your community. And I actually think people have exponentially more power than they know. I think there's something, there's's truth to the maximum that you know if you feel if you're feeling depressed help somebody. Right? I mean I do not know of one person who has helped another person and felt worse after. Yeah, that's true. It's it's it always makes you feel better. Yeah, it's fact. And that's why I want to encourage everyone who's listening and watching right now to definitely go and listen to the dissentist podcast and also follow Madonna and everyone's social media to find out new ways of getting involved because if you're sitting there right now and you would listen to our conversation, and I've been guiding this conversation and facilitating it for anyone

from what I hear, which I believe is the mass voice. And that's what I try and do, and what I've tried to do today, and I'm done with both of you, is the mass voice that I hear is, I'm overwhelmed, I'm lost, I'm confused, I don't know where to start, I want to do something. And I think both of you have given so many great insights, so many messages of hope, and so many personal and collective stories that will galvanize and push people

and activate people today to get involved. So that was my simple intention there of which questions I was trying to answer, because I think sometimes a lot of the debate that I hear becomes so far intellectual people for people and intellectual debates don't make you feel something. We all only do something when we feel something. We don't do something because we think it makes sense. You don't stop drinking or stop smoking because you know it's bad for your health. You do it because you lost someone because of that or you lost something because of that. Everything

has to be based on, I feel like emotion feeling is so much more powerful activate and I definitely feel that both of you have shared so many powerful messages today that are really connected with people's emotions. So thank you for sharing from the heart because that's the only way to speak to others as well. And I wanna end with two segments that we do at the end of the podcast. One is called Fill in the Blanks and the other one is called the Final Five. And fill in the blanks,

I'm actually really excited for both of you to fill in the blanks, it gives. It's terrifying. Oh, yes. You're both great for meeting people. It is and you get to define your terms. So here are your fill in the blanks. You can decide who goes first and second.

I'm not, I'm not going to pick. The heart of a dissenter is. The heart of a dissenter is compassion. I was going to say empathy. OK. The greatest person in the room is. Jay Shetty, what are we talking about? No, I'm just not sure anyway.

No, I mean, I want to know what you value. Okay. It's like the greatest individual room. I'm trying to understand your values without asking you, what is your value with that? I think the greatest person in the room is the person who is capable of not only listening but hearing. That's true. That is very true. I loyalty like people that show up for me it's I like that is one trade I admire more than anything in the world. I love that. Here for great answers literally guys. Okay. Being a hero doesn't mean being a hero doesn't mean you know everything. Oh my god so many things. It doesn't mean that you have to be famous, rich, a lot of followers, anything.

It literally just means that you have compassion and you show up. Great answer. Okay, yeah, I'm really glad to do this. Okay, not voting is the same as. Not voting is the same as giving up. Not caring. Great. Okay. And last one of the fill-in-the-blanks, I wish everyone knew that. I wish everyone knew that they is okay to be who you are and that you don't need to be what other people want you to be.

Awesome. Okay, great, great answers. So reflective, I love it. This is the final five now. So these have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum, both of you did awesome on the fill in the blanks. This can be a breeze for both of you. The first one is, what's something

you want to give your children that you didn't have growing up? Travel. College money. Okay, second question. What have you been chasing in your life in the past that you no longer pursue? I want to swear, but I won't. You can, if you want to. I allow everyone to be who they are. I would just say no fox. Okay. That's what you're pursuing, but you didn't or is the inverse?

No. What have you been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue. People's approval. Yeah, I got that. Yeah, same, 100% the same, like the whole people pleasing thing. This one I really like, think about it. So what's something that you're so sure about that others would disagree with you on. That America is good and it's worth fighting for. That's a powerful answer. That every person is inherently good.

So powerful, thank you. Okay, question number four. What's the biggest lesson that you've personally learned in the last 12 months? Surrender. There's not always the right answer and I don't have to be right. That's the right answer. No, that's a good answer. Awesome. Quite a fifth and final question for both of you. And because I know you both have some lawyers in your background.

So if you could create a law that everyone else in the world had to follow, what would it be? That you have to vote. Oh my god, stop taking my answer. She gives quick. Deborah's got it quick every time. Go, Doreng. And literally wearing my go to necklace. You went through it. You went through it. You have to give me a different answer. You have to give me a different onset. It's like family, few or whatever it's called. Oh, man. This isn't what you're asking.

But we have Shabbat dinners every Friday in my family. And it was the greatest part of my life in childhood. And I feel like people should be forced to sit with their families, assuming that it's okay at home once a week and just do get out and learn to work through family stuff. It's beautiful. That's very answered. That's absolutely fun. I love it.

Thank you so much, Deborah Manana. That was so awesome. You're fun and fun. You're fun and fun when you're filling the blanks with the deepest answers we've ever had. This is probably one of the most activating and empowering episodes that I believe we've had on purpose, to be honest.

I think that both of you are just full of light and hope and energy that I think we all need right now. And I love how you both do with so much grace and power at the same time. So thank you so much, honestly. Thank you from the bottom of my heart and audience for taking out the time for having hopefully a very different conversation than one that you may have had before and one that, you know, I'm hoping really, really touches over the hearts out there and gets people activated. And everyone who listens and love today, you can go check out the Descentis podcast. It's available right now

across every platform. Please please please go and listen and give these amazing stories. I know I'm going to go listen to episode two as soon as I can. I mean that story really moved me and had it being impact on me so please please please go and check it out and Devla and Mandela thank you. Thank you. Oh my god this was so fun. Thank you. We're friends. Yes we are. I can't. I don't know. I love that. I, I, I, yes we are. We are absolutely friends and I, you know, wait, spend more time with you both and hear more about everything that you're doing. You'll be amazing. You are, you are a constant inspiration. It's been an honor.

No, you're very kind. Thank you. Very kind. No, thank you both so much. Honestly, this was this was wonderful and you know I and I'm saying this to you offline and I don't mind if it's shared either offline but you know my my goal was just I'm constantly trying to appeal to people's hearts, because I feel like people know what's right, but they just don't know how to do anything about it. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on I Heart. I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions.

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is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Regardless of the progress you've made in life, I believe we could all benefit from wisdom on handling common problems, making life seem more manageable, now more than ever. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of the One-E-Feet podcast,

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Oprah Magazine named this is one of 22 podcasts to help you live your best life. You always have the chance to begin again and feed the best of yourself. The trap is the person often thinks they'll act once they feel better. It's actually the other way around. I have had over 500 conversations with world-renowned experts and yet I'm still striving

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