On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Dr. Andrew Weil ON: How to Use Foods to Fight Inflammation & Scientific Ways to Spark Your Creativity

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon.Today, let’s welcome Dr. Andrew Weil, a world renowned leader and pioneer in the field of integrative medicine. Combining a Harvard education and a lifetime of practicing natural and preventive medicine, Dr. Weil is the founder and director of the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where he is a clinical professor of medicine and professor of Public Health. A New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Weil is the author of 15 books on health and wellbeing. He is also the founder and partner in the growing family of True Food Kitchen Restaurants. Dr. Weil's current project includes matcha.com, bringing the world's best matcha to the West.Dr. Weil talks about the benefits of integrative medicine to help treat the mind, body, and soul. He also shares his expertise on the common causes of inflammation, how to combat cognitive decline, natural remedies to keep the mind active and relaxed at the same time, and the superfoods that we should incorporate more into our daily diet.What We Discuss:00:00 Intro03:20 Do you know the first rule of healthy eating?07:24 Dr. Weil shares some of the superfoods we can incorporate in our daily meals.11:52 The amazing growth of matcha tea worldwide.16:52 Let’s talk about the green mediterranean diet.18:07 Did you know that cooking oils are processed differently?24:47 Let’s talk about cannabis and its medicinal use.30:41 This is how cannabis preparation has drastically changed over the years.36:17 What are psychedelics and how can one have a positive experience with it?42:02 Minimizing the risks and increasing the potential benefits of psychedelics.44:36 Dr. Weil on empathogens and the promising results of this type of psychedelic.48:10 Is there a spiritual potential to psychedelics?51:16 The most common effects and benefits of psilocybin.53:44 Another psychedelic variation we can learn more about.59:05 This is what you should stop drinking alcohol01:01:21 Let’s talk about the book: Chocolate to Morphine01:03:33 There is a wide range of mind-body interventions and its possible connection to spirituality.01:07:18 Born with the fascination of the mind and body wellnessEpisode ResourcesDr. Andrew Weil | WebsiteDr. Andrew Weil | TwitterDr. Andrew Weil | InstagramDr. Andrew Weil | FacebookDr. Andrew Weil | YouTubeDr. Andrew Weil | Bookshttps://matcha.com/Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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for you to try at home. Listen to Hungry for History on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Literally, if you're doing any packet around, everything is canola, palm oil, and it's your podcasts. And it's extracted with heat and solvents and that denatures the oil and creates carcinogenic products. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become healthier, happier and more healed. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love, is out. And I cannot wait to share with you.

I am so, so excited for you to read this book. For you to listen to this book, I read the audio book. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eight rules of love.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour. Love rules. Go to jsheddytour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences,

and more. I can't wait to see you this year. Now you know that I'm a curious person who wants to learn more and more about our mind, our body, our health, and tools and techniques that can improve that for us. And I like sitting down with individuals who've dedicated their lives and their lives work to understanding what can improve the lives of others. Today's guest is someone I've been really looking forward to having on the show. I know you'll be really excited as well. We're going to be talking about a wide array of subjects, but I'm going to give you really practical insightful tips and tools that you can put into your life and day immediately to make an impact.

My guest today is Dr. Andrew Wilde, a world-renowned, reliever and pioneer in the field of integrative medicine. Combining a Harvard education and a lifetime of practicing natural and preventive medicine, Dr. Wyle is the founder and director of the Andrew Wyle Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where he is a clinical professor of medicine and professor of public health. A New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Wyle is the author of 15 books on health and well-being. Dr. We is also the founder and partner in the growing family of true food kitchen restaurants. Dr. Wilde's current project include matcha.com, bringing the world's best matcha to the West.

I am so excited to welcome Dr. Andrew Wilde. Andrew, thank you for being here. I'm delighted to be here. Very excited to learn from you about a subject matter that has so much, as we were talking about briefly before, has no insight, bad insight. You know, I feel people are underserved in this space. And so, so let's dive straight in.

The first thing I wanted to ask you and dive into you with was this thought around, what are the diet and lifestyle habits people need to do every day to live longer, healthier, and prevent cognitive decline? Well, you know, that's fairly simple. The first rule of healthy eating is to avoid refined processed and manufactured food. You know, that's what's doing us in. And I'm one of the first people to have begun talking about the importance of containing inappropriate inflammation. And I have developed an anti-inflammatory diet based on the Mediterranean diet,

but I added Asian influences to that because I spent a lot of time in Asia and there are things there like mushrooms and turmeric and tea that I find very useful. But it really looks, there's more and more evidence that chronic low level inappropriate inflammation is the root cause of most of the serious diseases that do people in prematurely.

So containing inflammation is very important and diet has that major influence there. But again, the first step of an anti-inflammatory diet is to try to eliminate refined processed and manufactured foods. In terms of other lifestyle practices, basic ones maintain physical activity throughout life, get good rest and sleep, learn and practice some methods of neutralizing the harmful effects of stress on the mind and the body, maintaining good relationships, especially spending time

with people in whose company you feel more positive. I mean, those are very simple steps. As for cognitive decline, this is of great concern to many people, because we all know people who have experienced cognitive decline, we want to avoid that. So I think two very practical pieces of advice. One is don't get hit in the head, and that may mean taking precautions if you're doing hazardous activities and being, you know, I don't recommend that people play for American football, for example. And another is don't smoke because nicotine constricts blood vessels, reduces blood flow to the brain.

So those are two simple steps. I think also I recommend practices like doing word puzzles to keep your mind active, learning another language. You don't have to master the language, just the attempt to learn it is very useful. So those are some pieces of practical information. Yeah, I think you've given us a beautiful spectrum of things to focus on there. And I think I definitely in my life,

try and tackle one of those areas every year. Because I feel that they're so big in and of themselves. And my biggest mistake in the past was when I tried to change everything, all at the same time. You're trying to improve your relationship, you're trying to the same time. You're trying to improve your relationship. You're trying to improve your gut. You're trying to improve your workout regime. And so I love what you're saying

that there's all these things. And everyone is listening and watching. Please try to choose one thing that you're going to try to deeply improve this year, that you feel is the one you're struggling with the most, that may be having the most negative impact on you, because you'll start to see how they all affect each other. Yeah, it doesn't have to wait a year, however.

Sure. I have a book called Eight Weeks Stopped From Health, which is a program. There we go. Each week, you know, you do something like you start by walking 10 minutes a day and each week you add, you know, five minutes to that. There we go. But I think you're quite right that a big mistake that people make is to try to do global change and then they give up. So I think it's best to take it in small bites.

Yeah, let's do something to some of those because I think they're easier said than done. So what you just spoke about with diet, that's something that I've genuinely been focusing on probably for the past 12 months in terms of not eating any packaged foods and refined sugars and processed foods and some eating only natural foods. I'm already plant based in my diet, but making sure that I'm eating vegetables and trying to avoid anything that's out of a packet. It's easier said than done. It took a lot of time for me to kind of move in that direction to find a meal prep service. I have an amazing wife who's an incredible cook and chef. And so that helps a million times over.

For people that are trying to make simple steps to changing specifically their diet to an anti-inflammatory diet, what are certain simple steps people can tell me? They're eight week version almost. Well, in the book I said, learn how to be friendly with broccoli. Broccoli is a very easy vegetable to cook, but in most many people overcook it, and it's

not very appetizing. And there's a very simple way of cooking it for about two minutes. So it's bright green and crunchy. You put some olive oil on it, garlic, if you want. But that's a wonderful powerhouse vegetable with cancer protective effects. Add some berries to your diet because they're full of antioxidants. We talked about, I mentioned tea. I think tea is a very helpful beverage.

It's one of the main sources of protective antioxidants. I think it's good to learn different types of tea and how to add that, find which ones you like. What specific teas have you found to have those benefits? Well, I'm a big fan of green tea because I've spent a lot of time in Japan and particularly match a green tea, which I think is, you know, as the highest levels of some of these protective elements in them.

But I think all tea is beneficial. When I was doing research on healthy aging, I made a number of trips to Okinawa, which at the time that I was doing it had the highest concentration of centenarians in the world. And one of the things that I observed there was that in very hot weather, people were drinking cold unsweetened turmeric tea. Delicious. And in North America, people are really unfamiliar with turmeric, except as it occurs in yellow mustard and curry.

But this form of turmeric in okinawa is fermented, which makes it more bioavailable and tastier. It dissolves very quickly in cold water. It's really delicious. So that's one that I recommend learning how to get more turmeric into your diet. It's the most powerful anti-inflammatory agent, natural anti-inflammatory agent that we know. Wow. Yeah, turmeric's a big part of the Indian diet, so I was supposed to eat it since I was a kid.

Indian Zedered at every meal. Yes. And one of the interesting correlations in the, I think rural in the, especially has the lowest rate of Alzheimer's disease in the world. And many researchers think that's related to the regular consumption of turmeric because Alzheimer's be glens as inflammation in the brain and

there's some animal research showing that turmeric can protect rats that are genetically programmed to develop Alzheimer's from developing it. So I think turmeric is a very good thing to become friendly with. That's great insight. I love that story of going to Okinawa. I went to Sardinia a few years ago. Well, that's one of the healthy agents. Correct, one of the blue zones. Yeah, and what's interesting, I want to Sardinia a few years ago. Ah, well, that's one of the healthy agents. Correct, one of the blue zones.

Yeah, and what's interesting, I want to hear what you saw there, but the, you know, if you go to these areas around the world where there are unusual concentrations of very healthy old people, women outnumber men by a long shot, you know, when you get up in the ranges of upper 90s, hundreds, it's almost all women. Sardinia is the one exception. The their men and women are equally in those ranks of the oldest old and we don't know why. Yeah, yeah.

I was really fascinated to see the few things and it's all on the spectrum of things you mentioned. But what was really interesting is that their workouts were natural. Of course, right. They were farming, they were walking, they were taking care of the land. Same in Okinawa, they were hauling fishing nets and gardening, I saw a 102 year old woman who was holding the garden in front of her house

so that they're not going to gyms, they're not working with trainers. It's just daily activity. Yeah, and then the other thing was that they were eating foods only in season. So everything was picked locally, everything was locally grown or locally found. And they weren't eating things

that were just artificially available. And what about social connectedness? I mean, that was a big part of it. I mean, people were living in bigger families or living closer by to families with children. So children weren't just being raised by two people but by 10 people. And every evening and even during the middle of the day,

they would get together. I think that's very important. The MacArthur Foundation, some years ago, did a study of successful aging. They identified a population of people they considered successful ages, and then they looked to see what were the outstanding commonalities. And the two that stood out, and this dwarfed everything else, whether they took supplements, whether they, you know, dietary patterns, the two were maintenance of physical activity throughout life and maintenance of social intellectual connectedness. I want to dive into two things that you mentioned early and I want to dive into them deeply because I think again, there buzzwords, people know about them, but I'd like people to really understand

the benefits. So let's talk about matcha, because that's your favorite daily plan. Yeah. And Ally, which you say has this incredible mind-body benefit, I think it has already seeped a 20-minute-minutes-room. Yeah, quite amazing. But yeah. I went to Japan when I was 17,

and lived with families, one family outside of Tokyo, and this was 1959. Japan was a very different place. And the second night that I was there, my host mother, we had no language in common, took me next door to her neighbor who practiced T-Sarmony. So the three of us sat around, and the neighbor did a T-Sarmony

and presented me with a bowl of matcha. And two things about it, totally caught my attention. What was the color? You know, this vibrant green. And the other was the bamboo whisk that you use to whisk the matcha tea into a froth in a bowl of water. It's carved from a single piece of bamboo, just a miracle of Japanese craftsmanship. So I fell in love with matcha.

When I got back to the States, nobody knew anything about it or ever heard of it. Over the years, when I was a go to Japan, I'd bring Macha back and I'd turn people onto it. I tried starting in the 1980s, I partnered with a Japanese company to try to sell it on my website. There was no market for it. I did that again in the 1990s. Anyway, it's quite amazing now to see this penetrating our culture. Macha is prepared in a very unique way. The tea plants are heavily shaded for three weeks before harvest, a 90% shade cloth. So it cuts out almost all sunlight. In response to that, the leaves get bigger and thinner and produce more chlorophyll trying

to take advantage of what light is there. And they also produce more antioxidants and flavor compounds and this amino acid althene that has a calming effect and moderates the action of caffeine. So for that reason, match I think is more helpful than other forms of tea. And also you consume the whole leaf, not just an infusion of it.

So that's one that I'm quite enthusiastic about. And I started a company, we got the URL matcha.com, which was a great tool. How, when did you get that URL in past days? Did you have to buy it recently or you've had it like, yes? No, it's like six or six or seven years. We tracked it down. It was owned by a Japanese man who had no idea what he had.

He had, if you went to the site He had pictures of his cats and my business partner Andre Fessiola managed to negotiate with him when we got it at a quite reasonable price people in Japan can't believe we've got we've got that Anyway, we import very high quality matcha and by the way if you're if your listeners Use a discount code J. We'll give them a very generous discount of the products. There you go. There you go. So I'm a big fan of match.

I'm delighted to see that getting traction. However, a lot of the match here is not very good because it's such a fine powder that unless it's carefully protected, it oxidizes very quickly, loses its brilliant green color, becomes bitter, and many people have tried match and say, they don't like it, but they've never tasted good match. So, as I said, I think a lot of research has been done on green tea in particular, but all tea has beneficial effects. And frankly, I don't want to bash coffee, but I would love to see more of a tea culture

develop here. Me too, I'm a bit too thin. I know. So coffee, the stimulant effects of coffee into you are very different. Coffee is much more jangling. It is much more associated with truly addictive behavior. There's a real crash coming down from coffee. You don't see any of that with tea.

And some of it is because of this modifying effect of althene. But also, I find it interesting that the historically and culturally, the associations with coffee, coffee was always associated with kind of argumentative behavior, loud, raucous gatherings of people, political activism, whereas tea, the historical associations are much more with contemplation, meditation. I think it would be very beneficial to see a greater tea culture develop in North America that could work its way into some of the coffee culture that's now so dominant. Yeah, when me and my wife launched our tea company, we said we wanted to make tea as hot as coffee.

That was the goal. Because we grew up with tea culture, both from our British and Indian heritage. I found it so therapeutic. I like you, love the color, love the scent, love the experience of having to drink it slow. You don't really have tea on the go. Exactly. There's a meditative process with any healing property to it. And it's a big change. When I was growing up, tea was what old people

and sick people drank in this country. And it's wonderful to see that change now. Yeah, absolutely. And the other one that I want to ask you about was the green mediterranean diet. Yes. This is interesting. It's just recently been in the news. You know, we have so much scientific evidence for the benefits of the Mediterranean diet in terms of longevity, overall, lowest risks of disease. And I think most of your listeners are familiar with the Mediterranean diet. You know, it's heavily on fruits and vegetables

and whole grains, olive oils, I mean, cooking fat, meat used very occasionally, oily fish, relatively low in sugar, so forth. So recently, a green Mediterranean diet is proposed as being even healthier, and this reduces animal products even further, increases fruits and vegetables, especially sources of a class of compounds called polyphenols. And these are antioxidant compounds that are found in plants and fruits, vegetables, especially berries, tea, and dark chocolate.

So the screen of the terrain diet specifically recommended green tea to add. And they noted chocolate for they mentioned all tea. So I think this is fascinating to see. And these are researchers really, you know, not really trying to promote any agenda. Yeah. As your work led to any of the research that I'm recently seeing around, like, canola oil, palm oil, and the negative harmful effects versus what now I'm only eating in is avocado oil and olive oil. Yep.

As my prime minister. There's one other that you should check out is algae oil, if you don't know. Okay, I know. This is a new product that's out there and it's made through cultured oil. It's called cultured oil and it's microorganisms that have been altered to produce oil, which is almost all mono unsaturated fat, has a very high smoke point, neutral taste, and also has one of the Omega 3 fatty acids in it. So that's another choice, but those are the ones I use also avocado and olive. And what are some of the harmful effects of the canola, palm oil, that, because they're

pretty much literally, if you turn any packet around, everything is canola, palm oil, and this is all the thing. Well palm oil, and this is a thing. Well, palm oil, aside from all the environmental effects which are terrible, there are two kinds of palm oils. There's oil extracted from the fruit of the oil palm, which is red and is used in Africa as a cooking oil and is okay, but we rarely see that. And then there's the oil extracted from the kernel.

And that is very high in unstable, unsaturated fatty acids that oxidize quickly. It's also very high in saturated fat. So that's not a good one. Canola oil is a, you know, the word means Canadian oil. It was developed by Canadian scientists. I think in the 1920s or 1930s, from a traditional cooking oil that you know in India, rapeseed oil. Yes, and that's another idea. And rape has a toxic fatty acid in it, possibly. The Canadian scientists worked with it to develop one that was low in that fatty acid.

Problems with canola oil, although the fatty acid profile is okay. Most of the commercially produced canola oil is heavily contaminated with agrochemicals, and it's extracted with heat and solvents, and that denatures the oil and creates coarse and adgenic products. So it's one I would stay away from now. I recommend it in the past, but I don't anymore. I'm a big fan of olive oil. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now everyone cook with olive oil. By the past, but I don't anymore. I'm a big fan of olive oil. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now everyone cook with olive oil.

By the way, I've worked with a number of Indian patients who are very convinced that ghee can do no harm. And it's pure butter fat. And it's probably not healthy. And the rates of cardiovascular disease in India are pretty high. And I've taught people to use ghee as a flavoring in a cook with a healthy organ like avocado, and then at the end you can drizzle some ghee over to get the flavor you want.

And I've also suggested I had a student, a physician from Carola, where coconut, you know, are the land of coconuts and they use coconut oil and coconut, full fat coconut milk. And I taught her to use cashew milk, which is very easy to make and it's much healthier fat than coconut, it's monounsaturated, and the taste is delicious. Wow, that's good to know about ghee,

because yeah, it's one of those things that my mom never wants me to miss. Right, I know. But then I always hear this, like, it's one of those things that my mom never wants me to miss. Right, I know. But then I always hear this, like, in between, but I like the... Yeah, use it as a flavoring at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the happy medium, the happy balance. Yeah.

That makes it. Should we have it here about the turmeric? Good. That's like, and Saf runs the other one. She's like, never telling me to miss. And that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the turmeric, you know, our company also sells that for men, the turmeric for Okinawa.

Right. And we'll send you something to try. Please, I love that. It's delicious. That sounds amazing. That's really good. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. When you're at your best, you can do great things. But sometimes life gets you bogged down and you may feel overwhelmed or like you're not showing up the way you want to. Working with a therapist can help you get closer to the best version of you. Life can be overwhelming sometimes, and it's easy to feel out of control, but talking

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It's fascinating. You mentioned earlier limiting the smoking of cigarettes and the negative effects of nicotine. What about when it comes to marijuana? I think that marijuana is such an interesting topic for so many people today. There are so many perspectives. Most of them out there are like positive,

but I'd love to know from your perspective, how are you seeing marijuana affect the brain? How are you seeing marijuana affect the actual? How are you seeing marijuana affect the actual? First of all, I'm going to call it cannabis because the word marijuana has negative connotations. So let's talk about cannabis. Yes, sure. So I did the first controlled human experiments with cannabis in 1964. It was the first time anyone had given that to human subjects and that controlled fashion

to see what it did. So, it's a plant that I've been involved with for some time. And let me say, you know, this is also a plant very well-known in India. It's, you know, native to Asia. The word, it's the main species cannabis, the stiva means useful. And cannabis is hemp, it's the same root as canvas because canvas is what we used to be made from hemp fiber. But this is a very useful plant. It provides an edible seed, an edible oil, a fiber, a medicine, and an intoxicant. That's a lot of ways for one plant to serve us.

And it really only wants to serve us. And I think we have really not been wise in the way we've dealt with that plant. So in terms of the intoxicating properties of cannabis, it's a difficult subject to talk about because the chemistry of that plant is so complex, there are so many different strains and there's so much variation in individual reaction to it. Now, there are people who can smoke cannabis before bed and have a great night's sleep, other people smoke before bed and they can't sleep the entire night. So there's that kind of disparity in reactions to it.

First of all, that it is one of the least toxic drugs that we know. You can't kill people with it. And you can't say that about any drug that we use in medicine. And every drug has lethal dose. And in some cases, the lethal dose is relatively close to the useful dose. You can't calculate lethal dose for cannabis. So on a physical level, it's extremely safe. I mean, there's concerns

about smoking it and whether that's how harmful that may be for long, and that goes back and forth. I don't think it's a great idea to smoke anything, you know, and inhale, smoke into the lungs, probably not a good idea. But certainly not as, I think, not as toxic as to back when it doesn't have anything in it as addictive as nicotine, which is one of the most addictive drugs that we know. I think the medical usefulness of cannabis, there's a lot of potential there. And I think this is a subject that's open at the moment. There's a lot of research on ways

that can reduce muscle spasticity. It can help people with all sorts of neuromuscular problems with digestive problems, but again, a lot of individual reaction to it. We're seeing this plant being made available to people, and I think it's about time that it gets out of that restrictive drug schedule and made available for therapeutic use. I was just talking yesterday, our center does a podcast and I was interviewing a nurse who was a member of the American Cannabis Nurses Association. I didn't know there was such a thing, but there is a large group of nurses who have now become trained in using cannabis therapeutically. They use all different forms and they base that on the individual patient, but I think

they're in a much better position to do this than physicians because there's no cannabis preparation out there that most doctors are going to feel comfortable using. And until we have something like that, I don't think doctors are going to go near it. They don't understand it, but it's great that nurses are using, a lot of them are using it for pain control. They're also using it in the hospice situations, especially with people with terminal cancer. And they say they find it very useful.

So I think it's, you know, I'm happy to see this becoming used. I think there's a lot we don't know about it. And I find it very difficult when people ask my advice about it. I don't know what preparations to recommend to people. You know, it's confusing. What's your take on the more social use of it? Well, I was, you know, I was part of that culture in my 20s and 30s.

And, you know, it was, it was, it was fun back then. You know, it was a fun social experience. And then I also found that it was very stimulated my imagination, creativity helped me write. But at some point, that changed. And my reactions to it changed. I became more introspective, withdrawn. And then eventually, it became an unproductive habit

that just made me groggy and it was hard for me to separate myself from it. So what was that? What do you think that was? Because I think that's such an interesting arc of a journey with it. I think a lot of people feel that way. That's kind of like an arc. I had a lot of friends who initially started for those reasons and then ended up paranoid

or ended up confused or ended up lethargic or something. I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with changes as we age possible but it was such a striking change in the effects for me no so something that I thought of as an ally that was helping me really it ceased being that yeah yeah okay that's really interesting to know because yeah I feel I had a lot of friends in the same bucket I never really I never really doubled with it deeply but but in my brief experiences It was far very brief experiences. It was far more the creative or the spark

But it I never got deep into it but my friends who did they they went on the same art So that's interesting and I don't know I have not seen anyone write about that or talk about that or investigate what the cause of that is Yeah, yeah I have not seen anyone write about that or talk about that or investigate what the cause of that is. Yeah. Also, today, the preparations of cannabis that are out there are much, much stronger than those that were available when I was using it way back. You mean the ones that are available from a leisure perspective or from everywhere? Yeah, I will tell you a story, a physician, colleague of mine in San Francisco sent me three preparations of cannabis that had come from a medical dispensary, and he wanted me to try them. I was, you know, I'm a little

leery about that since I'm, you know, haven't used it and so long. One of them was a kind of oil that was in a tube, a little syringe, and it came with a very professionally printed brochure, and it was recommending it for pain control, especially. And it said to start with an amount, the size of a grain of rice, and work up from there. So I took a piece half the size of a grain of rice, and my friend said, take it at bedtime. Took it at bedtime, went to sleep,

woke up about an hour later in full-blown delirium, with hallucinations as vivid as those I've had from using LSD. I couldn't move, I had no equilibrium, had burning thirst, I couldn't reach for glass of water, I couldn't call for help, and it kept coming on stronger and stronger, and I had no idea when this was going to end, and I had to use all the tricks that I've learned in meditation and breath control to keep myself centered. And when I finally subsided about the hours later, my equilibrium was offered two days, I had very bad bounds and I was really angry. I mean, and this brochure said, work up from there, and I'm thinking there are people out there, you know, taking this. I mean, that was like a very, very powerful thing. And I thought fairly dangerous.

What brought you into this so early on? Because we're at a point in culture, I feel, where these things are now coming to the forefront. I mean, of course, I'm probably sure you're seeing cycles of that. You probably saw it come. Well, I was, you know, I, I'm just starting work on a book about Psychedelics and I'm a lot of it I'm telling my own history because I knew everyone involved and all of that. But my interest goes back to about, I think it was a specific day in 1960, right before I went to Harvard. And there was an article in the newspaper, Alfie about supposedly the death of a student at a California University who was taking masculine

for inspiration for a creative writing course. And it said, masculine was a vision-inducing drug. I'd never heard of it. And they made the mistake of quoting from his last paper. And I just remember this phrase, galaxies of exploding colors. When I read that, I knew I wouldn't have seen it. So I inquired about it.

I came across Alta's Huxley's book, The Doors of Perception, which I've been written a few years before. And when I got to Harvard, I had the very good fortune to become associated with Richard Evans-Schultz, who was the director of the Harvard Botanical Museum. and he had been one of the great explorers of the Amazon and discovered a lot of hallucinogenic plants down there. So he really, through him, I became very interested in psychedelic plants. At the same time, Richard Albert and Timothy Leary were just starting their work with psilocybin at Harvard. These drugs were not controlled substances then. The Leary were just starting their work with psilocybin at Harvard.

These drugs were not controlled substances then. I was able to obtain masculine from a chemistry chemical company. I took it a number of times. Had interesting experience, but it was very disappointed I didn't see Gallaudet. Yeah, I think so too. Some exciting colleagues. Very disappointed. Anyway, so that was before I'd ever tried cannabis.

But as a result of being in that place at that time, I really got to meet and come across all of the people who worked in that field with Albert Hoffman, who was the Discover of LSD, Gordon Wasson, who rediscovered the mushroom cults in Mexico, Sasha Shulgen, who invented many of the designer drugs. So I had a long period of experimentation with psychedelics, and I have had a lot of benefit from them.

I really don't use them anymore. My first book, The Natural Mind, which was about the importance of altered states of consciousness. I don't know, you can carry it. Yeah, I'm making sure they see it. But Alan Watts wrote a blurb for it, and which he said, when you get the message, you hang up the telephone. And so I think I got what I had to learn from psychedelics, and I didn't feel the need to continue to use them.

But I've learned a lot of things from them and a lot of that has formed my philosophy of integrative medicine, especially the the very subtle, complex interactions of mind and body. And I have seen very powerfully that you can change external reality by changing internal reality. Mm-hmm. I'm Mungaia Tikhler and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment

I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention, because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, majorly baseball teens, canceled marriages, K-pop! But just what I thought I had to handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology,

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I'm Maite Gomes-Rajón. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages, from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories. Decode culinary customs. And even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home.

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Podcast Network available on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Debbie Brown and my podcast deeply well is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your journey. From guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care, trauma, psychology, spirituality, astrology, and even intimacy. Here's where you'll pick up the tools to live as your highest self. Make better choices, heal, and have more joy.

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to work on yourself without judgment, to heal, to learn, to grow, to become who you deserve to be. Deeply well is available now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Big love, namaste. Let's dive in a side, Cadillacix because that was also what really intrigued me and drew

me to your work because again, I feel like my generation, generations after me, they're starting to hear these terms in mainstream culture a lot more often. And I feel like my role is to try and find the deepest experts in this space to help everyone have as much information they can have in order to make better decisions for themselves, their friends, their family, and anyone that's there. And so I'm going to ask questions that may seem really simple and basic, but by design, because I want people to, so what are psychedelics for someone who keeps hearing that term from their friends and they keep nodding along, pretending to know what that is. What does it mean and what comes under that?

You know, the word, it's a coined word, which means mind manifesting. Previously, people had called these psychotic on mymetic drugs, meaning they mimic psychosis, which is a very negative term. They are psychedelics, are a large group of compounds, many of which are found in plants. There's one we know from an animal source. Many are synthetic or semi-synthetic drugs.

They fall into two chemical families with very distinctive molecular structures. Cetamine is not a psychedelic, even though many people call it that. Cannabis is not a psychedelic. It doesn't have any chemical resemblance to that. MDMA is part of that chemical family related to masculine, but its effects are not typical of psychedelics. It has a unique effect that makes people emotionally open. I think it is a very useful substance. I guess I would call it a psychedelic,

but it's not a classic psychedelic in terms of the perceptual changes that it causes. One fact about this group of compounds is they are strikingly non-toxic physically, much as with cannabis. That's just not an issue physical toxicity. The main dangers are psychological, and those are almost entirely

results of set and setting. That is the expectation of the person taking them and the physical environment in which they're taking. So, you know, at the put it in a very crude way, if you take a very high dose of LSD on a New York subway on a day when you're feeling anxious, you're likely to have a bad trip. On the other hand, if you take the right sort of dose in nature when you are prepared for the experience and in the company of people who can guide you in the right direction, the chances are you can have a positive experience. The penetration of psychedelics into mainstream culture at the moment is quite astonishing. You know, before the pandemic, I was traveling a lot and speaking in various places and no matter what subject I was talking about, whether

it was nutrition, healthy aging, integrative medicine, I would get questions about psychedelics. You know, where can we get them? How can we use them? How do you find somebody who can guide you? You know, a few months ago, Vogue magazine had a cover story on psilocybin town and country magazine of all places had an article titled, why is everybody smoking toad venom? I mean, this is, it is really going mainstream in a big way. And it is absolutely absurd to have these in federal schedule one, which is defined as drugs that have high potential for abuse and no therapeutic potential. The therapeutic potential of these drugs is enormous. Now you know there is currently a lot of research documenting benefits in mental emotional

conditions, things like MDMA for PTSD and OCD, psilocybin for drug-resistant depression, for example, and treatment of addictions of various kinds. There's a long growing list of conditions for which clearly there are good results obtained. But beyond that, I think there is a tremendous potential of these two closed spiritual awakening. Some of that has been documented at the Johns Hopkins Center for psychedelics, which is really good. I mean, a single experience with psilocybin and people who had no sense of a spiritual dimension to life suddenly or aware of that. In my own experimentation with them, I have had very profound realizations that my conscious and this extends to everything. You know that everything out there is conscious, not just animate objects, but rocks and everything.

And that same, whatever that is, it's in me, it's in everything it connects me with everything. I think having that realization is one of the things that guided me in my philosophy of medicine and my methods of treating patients. I think it's also changed my attitude toward nature. And, you know, I really, the title of the book I'm working on is Psychedelics Can Save the World. And I really believe that. And I think it may be the only thing out there that has that possibility because we are clearly headed for disaster. And I think the only thing that can save us is a collective transformation of consciousness. I think that can result from enough individuals having a transformation of consciousness that it catalyzes some general movement.

I mean, for instance, if you just look at the issue of the climate disaster that we're facing, I think if people realize that they are part of nature, that they're continuous with it, they change their behavior. That's just one example. I saw some research recently showing that people who had experience with, I think, was psilocybin, particularly, tend to become involved with the environmental movement. That is the great hope that I have. I think this could go a million different ways in terms of whether for profit, business is getting involved, whether people are gonna be using these departee,

but I think it doesn't matter. I think just having these out there in the general culture and freed from that restrictive way that they've been placed, I think that holds great positive potential. You like the idea of these things becoming more mainstream and accessible and available because they have so many positive benefits, but there's a part of you that understands or is accepting of the dangers that come in with self-diagnosis and self-use,

where it isn't being administered in a healthy dose or a healthy way. What are some of the... Because like the example you gave of getting on the train, like I look at that and I go, you know, as these things become more available, how do we stop people going off the edge because they don't know how to administer and monitor and actually? Well, I would say by training as many people as we can to be guides who will behave in an ethical fashion and are experienced and can structure psychedelic experience and weigh to minimize any harmful potential and maximize positive potential. So there are a number of groups around the country that have training programs.

For psychedelic guides, we need a lot more of them. And my hope is that we'll start to see that. Yeah, because I do worry that I love the benefits of so many incredible sources out there. I do worry that when people are untrained in anything that has that much power, it can be worrying too, because you could have a whole world of people who could be saved

and supported, but in the wrong way could end up in a much worse place psychologically, as you said, because there isn't that responsibility around it, if that makes sense. Would you agree? Yeah, yeah. So, that's my hope, is that we'll see some large numbers of responsibly trained people who can guide people in the right direction. Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that with you, because it's kind of how I feel about technology, right?

Like, if you look at technology, technology is like a drug in one sense, in the way the chemicals that are released, when we use them, it could really be likened to a drug. Obviously, it's not been talked about that way, that's not the language where only seeing those experiences now, and we're seeing the challenges with technology addiction, we're seeing the challenges with

technology obsession and the things that come from it, whether it's envy, comparison, fear of missing out, anxiety, insecurity. And you think, oh, wait a minute, well, if we had technology coaches and if people were trained in how to use technology effectively before we were given a phone, chances are we'd be better at handling it. And we wouldn't be doing this backwards job that we're in right now, which is like, oh gosh, my kids are all at, you know. Yeah, I think we have no idea what this is doing to kids' brains. You know, I think it obviously is changing them, but I don't think we know the full ramifications of that. Yeah.

So it's definitely a concern. And you're saying there's enough insight on the effects of psychedelics on the brain for us to kind of be able to see the right amount of doses. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Right. Let's dive into some of the more popular ones and how they use because again, we hear these names a lot and I think people are unaware of like, well, what is that used for?

How is it administered? Who does it help? So you were mentioning that MDMA, could you tell us, what is MDMA? What, how is it used currently? Yeah, so MDMA is a synthetic psychedelic, and it resembles the structure of masculine, that family of groups, does not cause many visual changes, like, you know, a lot of the classics

like Adelix. It is a stimulant, but it has a very reliable uniform effect in most people which is to produce a state of non-defensiveness, calmness, positive emotional feeling, emotional openness. It's a name that's been proposed for it as an empathogen, something that creates empathy. I've used it a lot and actually it was invented by my friend Sasha Schulgen and he sent me some and I think somewhere around 1975 and said, what do you think of this? And I said send more. And I've seen many, many people use it with very, very good results. I think it can be incredibly healing for

relationships. I've seen some remarkable physical changes in people with disappearance of allergies and chronic pain. And there's quite a lot of research on its usefulness in dealing with PTSD. And there's quite a lot of research on its usefulness in dealing with PTSD. Sometimes one structured MDMA session can eliminate that after people have tried all sorts of psychotherapy, talk therapy that hasn't produced results. So I think it's very like that's going to be the first one that's going to be made therapeutically available and probably for the treatment of PTSD. Yeah, and PTSD's PTSD, obviously, is such an extreme experience.

And so it sounds like, how, I guess, what are people experiencing when they do it? So it sounds like they're more vulnerable, they're more empathetic to themselves as well. I'd say it is a heart-centered experience, you know what? Strong feelings of loving connection with others, calmness, relaxation, and a strikingly uniform effect from person to person.

Whereas the other, you know, a lot of the others, the classics like it, Alex, just tremendous variation in response, depending on setting, and setting, MDMA is pretty uniform. Yeah, and again, you don't see this as something it sounds like this is not something you do for the rest of your life. This is a medicinal almost. There's a certain thing to treat and work through. You're working with a practitioner. Yes, you may not have to use it that many times.

Right, right, right. But I think that that's one that we really should have access to in use. I lived as a monk for three years in India. I was in a monastery where we spend hours every day deep in meditation and reflection in the study of spiritual texts and literatures and at very strict diets. But we were trained in the development of a lot of these almost like the purification and the detoxing to get to compassionate empathetic states. And so when you were describing some of your experiences, I was like, I had that experience through

meditation of that connectedness with nature and with the universe and with each individual soul, whether it be animal, or inanimate. So I remember those through meditation. And so our journey was very slow, very step by step, a lot of pain and a lot of obstacles to clear the way. I mean, intrigued by how does someone feel after the dose has run its course? Like, are they able to stay compassionate and empathetic with their partner? What happens? I mean, intrigued, yeah.

Well, the effect of the drug wears off. And it's because it's a stimulant you feel, there's a period of time when you feel tired and somewhat depleted of energy, but the feelings you remain and you can reconnect with those. And I think it, I see permanent change in people. By the way, in the early days, when people were talking about the spiritual potential of psychedelics, it really angered a lot of spiritual teachers, you know, who said that this was artificial, that these experiences, and I think they were kind of resentful of people having them without going through the time and work that like you put in.

So, you know, I think there are many valid paths to achieve those kinds of feelings, but psychedelics are fast and they offer the possibility of giving many more people access to them. Yeah, I've seen in my personal experience with the right people around me and with people I know that have experienced them. I found them to be great window openness for people or door openness. It's kind of what you describe like this idea that You got to have a glimpse into a new reality that you didn't know Existed but but I think I'm always intrigued by how people have that versus it becomes addictive where you're just constantly wanting to live in that new reality

A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe and Montreal, this pulse, this energy. What was seen as a very snotty city, people call it Bosedangeless. New Orleans is a town that never forgets its pay. A great way to get to know a place is to get invited to a dinner party. Hi, I'm Brendan Friends' newdom, and not lost is my new travel podcast where a friend and I go places, see the sights, and try to finagle our way into a dinner party. We're kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party.

It doesn't always work out. I would love that, but I have like a Cholala who is aggressive towards strangers. I love the dogs. We learn about the places we're visiting, yes, but we also learn about ourselves. I don't spend as much time thinking about how I'm going to die alone when I'm traveling, but I get to travel with someone I love. Oh, see, I love you too. And also, we get to eat as much... I love you too. My life's a lot of therapy goes behind that.

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Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But I think Psychedelics have a kind of self-protective quality to them, which is if you try to take them frequently, the experience disappears. So I think people quickly, there's not a lot of motivation to use them

with any sort of great frequency. Yeah, got it. And in terms of carry over effects, I've told this story a lot and you may have heard it, but just as an example, and this is on a physical level, I had a lifelong allergy to cats. If a cat got near me, my eyes would itch. If a cat licked me, I'd get hives where it licked me. So I always avoided them. And one day when I was 28, I was

sort of living in the country in Virginia, it was a beautiful spring day. I took LSD with a group of friends, outdoors. It was just, I felt wonderful. I mean, I really felt just high connected with nature-driven. And then the midst of this, a cat jumped into my lap. And I had an immediate defensive reaction. And then I thought, you know, this is silly. And I just relaxed and played with the cat. I had no allergic reaction. And I've never had one sense.

You know, instantaneous disappearance of a lifelong allergic pattern. Is that a common pass with that particular, with LSD or no? No, I think it's not, not peculiar to LSD. I think it can happen with any psychic element. Right. It doesn't happen automatically necessarily Yeah, but I could imagine you know what Dr. Wiles allergy clinic if these become available Yeah, you know where you give people start with a full dose and expose them to the allergen and then like

Once a week you'd reduce the dose till at some point they were getting just a placebo Yeah, I think you can allergies can be unlearned and that's a powerful tool for doing it. Yeah. What are the other ones that you think are going to become more accessible? Well, the psilocybin is the one that's being closer to science. This is the main compound found in the magic mushrooms, which traditionally were used by indigenous peoples in southern Mexico and central America. There are many species of them. Some can easily be cultivated, some grow wild, especially in the Pacific Northwest. It's a very well-known compound now, and it is being intensively studied and used, and especially for

mental health conditions, for drug-resistant depression, for obsessive-compulsive disorder, for addictive disorders. It looks quite safe. You know, it is what's quite safe. Well, again, no physical issues with it at all. No cognitive. No, nothing. And in fact, you know, there have been studies of people who've used these compounds quite frequently over a long lifetime. And there's been studies of their brains and they look perfectly healthy. So I don't think there's any issues there. So this is one that I think also is going to be made

therapeutically available fairly. Specifically for mental health conditions first. But I think again, one that has a lot of potential uses in medicine as well. So that, you know, the main difference between psilocybin and LSD is duration of action. LSD lasts 10 to 12 hours, which can be inconvenient. And psilocybin is four to six hours, so that's much more manageable.

And some people are using it recreationally too. Yes, they are. Well, again, I'm not going to be critical of people who do that. No, no, I'm not either. I'm just trying to, yeah, frankly, I'm trying to rather have people use that than alcohol recreationally because yeah, let's because it's much safer on a physical level and I'd probably safer on a psychological level as well when you look at the numbers of Homicides accidental deaths that are related to alcohol it's tremendous and you don't see anything like that with

Silasimon can you drive after? Well, I you can I wouldn't recommend it probably, but if somebody's familiar with it, you certainly can. I mean, it doesn't impair coordination on a physical level like alcohol. Yeah. No, no, and I don't have any side or any, what's the right word, any, any dog in the fight. I'm asking from, I'm just being so curious as to like, I know my community would ask these questions and I'm thinking, all right, like, I want them to have such a real genuine understanding

of what this is because. So let me talk about another compound that is of great interest is DMT. Yes, of course. Dymethyl triptopin. So this is a, it's a very simple chemical compound and it's related to serotonin, the neurotransmitter and melatonin, the pineal hormone.

It's found in many plants, especially in South America, and is used by indigenous people, mostly as snuffs. They prepare powdered preparations from plants and inhale it. And often this occurs with another compound called 5-MafoxidiumT, which is the one that's found in the toad that is pop-toad venom. And anyway DMT is if you smoke it, it's a very rapid effect. You know within seconds you are often another reality and it's extremely visual. You know incredible visual tips tips, and then you, after several minutes, you come back to ordinary reality.

The five-methoxyversion is not visual. People describe it as a rocket ship into the void. Your ego dissolves, and when it reconstitutes, it's very pleasant. It is very likely that DMT is our endogenous psychedelic that is made by the pineal gland, and it may explain why some people have psychedelic-like experiences, whether it's from meditation or fasting or other things, it may be from release of endogenous DMT. Some people think this may also mediate the near-death experience that so many people report.

So I do believe we have an endogenous psychedelic and it's very likely to be the empty. Wow. Yeah, and we were talking about earlier and I love hearing about your travels. Have you been to the Amazon? Yes, you know, Shulti sent me down there long ago. I made a number of trips.

I was investigating medicinal plants, ayahuasca, mushrooms, and we're spent time with shamans to learn what tricks I could learn from them. So yes, so that was in the 1970s, 1980s. I made a number of trips down there. Wow, and why do the Amazonians have no problems with taking drugs like DMT? Well, this is an interesting thing. There are so many psychedelic plants and preparations in South America and in Mexico in Central America. And there are so few in the Old World. You know, there's one plant in Africa called Iboga, the source of a drug called Ibogaine,

which has been the best using the Abyssinia. Yeah, for addictive behavior, what's right. There's a possibility of one from India, and there's been great speculation as to what this preparation soma was that's referred to in the Vedas. So there's possibly there was some psychedelic preparation there. And the elucinian mysteries in ancient Greece

involved drinking a potion that almost certainly was made from Urgot and it was a way of detoxifying that fungus and producing an LSD like drink, but otherwise, you've got this huge abundance of psychedelic preparations in the new world, and it doesn't make botanical sense that there'd be that disparity. So it must be something about the people.

You know, in the old world, in African Asia, people I think are as drawn to altered states of consciousness, but they get into them, especially in Africa through drumming, prolonged wakefulness, dancing, rather than taking substances. Yeah, yeah, so is that the difference that you see in how we take them and how they take them? Yeah, same as right. that the difference that you see and how we take them and how how they take them and yeah Right, but in if you look at the indigenous peoples in South America and the Amazon especially the these they are always used ritually They're often you know under the direction of shamans who are trained trained in their use. Yeah, absolutely

and You know, I think they're the potential for abuse in those populations is, very little. Miniscule, right. Yeah, that's really fascinating. Yeah, I feel like, yeah, it was always sacred. It was part of a holy ritual of some kind.

It was always used medicinally and understood. And it's kind of, yeah, it's. Ritual is a very powerful tool for containing the harmful potential of substances Yeah, that's why they were created in around those I guess yeah, no that's and that's always really interesting for me to hear because I feel like Yeah, there's a there's a and I'm just reflecting on it as an individual. I look at it and I think I really trust things that can are very focused on the intention in which they're taken that can are very focused on the intention in which they're taken, administered by someone who understands what the power and effect of this is. And it's in an environment that

allows you to have a fulfilling, powerful experience with a certain goal or place to reach to. That all of those things to me feel very coherent with how I would do anything, whether it's getting an operation, or like I got an operation last year, and I wish I did more research on the doctor. And I felt the same way about that. I was like, we blindly trust the doctor you got placed with, and someone told you that they were great,

and I wasn't happy with the doctor at a tall. And so it applies to all parts of our life. I think this idea of like, am I intentional with the doctor I chose, the hospital I chose, am I being thoughtful about these things? And in the same way, I don't think it's different. I think it almost has to be thought about in the same way. If that- You know, even with alcohol, there's some very interesting lessons from history. Please. When distilled alcohol became available and it was a sudden invention of the Dutch, you know, so it was in the 1600s In the wake of that there was an epidemic of drunkenness Alkalism unlike anything that we've ever seen and even in this country in America in the early 1800s

1700s every store had a barrel of whiskey and people went in, you just have a ladle of whiskey and people started drinking early in the morning all day long, drunks were lying in the street. You know, it was, it was an uncontrollable epidemic of alcoholism and gradually, you know, over several decades, there was a social consensus that grew up that it was unseemly to be drunk and that rituals grew up around the use of the still-dark oil, one of which is the cocktail party, which is not going to happen at 10 in the morning.

You know, we're going to do this late in the day, there'll be food present and friends present, and it's for social, as a social lubricant. And that kind of conscious use and ritual helped contain the negative possibilities that could resolve from such a strong drug. Right, and of course, I mean, with alcohol, there's so many proven negatives. Right. And issues, even now, whether it's got brain,

et cetera, et cetera. Could you talk about some of those just so that we... Well, alcohol, you know, it is extremely toxic to the brain, and to the liver. And there's arguments go back and forth. Yeah, that's all the video, whether we are alcohol, or moderate consumption alcohol is beneficial.

Some people say, even one or two drinks is harmful for some people. So this goes back and forth. I think many of the benefits described to alcohol are benefits of relaxation. And for many people the benefits described alcohol are benefits of relaxation. And for many people, that is a main method of relaxation. But I think the fact is that, you know, it is a strong toxin, and then you have to be very careful about using it. And there's some people like women that have genetic risk for breast cancer probably shouldn't use it at all.

Right. Yeah. This fascinated me when I was looking at your work, your book, Chocolate to Morphe, who is pivotal and often the most stolen books and colleges in the last 40 years. Yeah. You tell us a bit about the book and the book and then about the stuff. It's a very good book. It's still in print and the main point of it, which enraged some people, was that there are no good and bad drugs. There are just good and bad relationships with drugs. And I very firmly believe that. I mean, there are no drugs that have inherent good or horrible qualities.

It's how people use them and how they think of them. Yeah. Some obviously are more difficult to form good relationships with them. And some of them naturally like chocolate as a victim of chocolate have addictive dates. I've talked about this many many times, but I was genuinely addicted to chocolate. And it took my wife and me, you know, when I said addicted in the sense of like I could

eat like a full slab in a moment, like a family pack version, like easily on my own, no issues. I see. And it took a long time for me to take chocolate out of my diet because they've got a sugar I was taking in too. Right. Well, I put chocolate at the very top of my anti-inflammatory diet pyramid. How? Because it's a...

Oh, taking it out. No, I put it back. It's there. It's the very top of the anti-inflammatory diet pyramid. So something that I recommend in moderate consumption, it has very useful antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects. That makes me change my relationship with it. You're a dark shock, but it has to be at least 70%. Yeah, but a little bit on a regular basis is fine. What's a little bit on a regular basis? Not a slab, but not a slab.

You have this real love for this plant medicine that can have such a big benefit on people. And it must be hard because so much of it's been demonized or talked about in a certain way. And I love what you just said now. It's like you're arguing that it's about your relationship with these things. And that's really fascinating to me because I feel like that, it's almost like that's how we would talk about

It's our relationship with technology. It's our relationship with money. Yeah, there's nothing it's there is nothing inherently evil about technology You know, it's I think that's true of so many things. It's it's how we relate to it Yeah, we use it. Our relationship is with it. Yeah, that's that's really fascinating. I also wanted to dive into The idea where you mentioned earlier around the spiritual awakening piece, because I definitely am not, I would say even though I studied in such a traditional and rigorous way personally, which has led to so many beautiful spiritual awakenings and realizations, I'm very not, I wouldn't consider myself to be closed minded as to how other people find their parts. I find that I have my part and it was beautiful, but I'm very open to people finding their parts. And some people are at different stages

in their journey where they need different things. Could you walk me through what specifically be used been used in a spiritual way and what have been some of the results? Well, first of all, let me say for me, spirituality means being aware of and acknowledging the non-material aspect of existence. Working in the medical field, I am so aware of and frustrated by the power of the materialistic paradigm, you know, that many scientists and many physicians don't believe in anything that's not physical. So when you try to talk about, not let alone not spirit,

but even if you try to talk about the mind and the influence of the mind on the body, they don't believe that. I mean, in the materialistic paradigm, if you observe a change in a physical system, the cause has to be physical Non-physical causation of physical events is not allowed for in that paradigm So this is what you know there's a whole range of

mind-body interventions that we make use of an integrated medicine hypnosis guided imagery visualization therapy, but and these Methods are very cost effective, very effective, and they're totally underutilized because people don't believe in it. And that's why we haven't really made sense of the placebo response, you know, all of that. So, I would love to see that change. You know, I'd really love to see a paradigm shift.

And to me, that's what spiritual awakening is about. You know, it's becoming aware of the non-physical dimension and the reality of the non-physical. And I make a very short distinction between spirituality and religion. You know religion is about institutions and institutions are mostly concerned with perpetuating themselves. You know spirituality is this connection with acknowledging the non-physical and its importance in interacting with the physical dimension.

I think there's lots of ways you can awaken to that. I said, you know, for me and for many people, I've seen psychedelic experience become a very powerful way of doing that. Yeah, and how have you and others sustained that? Like you were saying yourself, like you don't take them anymore, but it's become a way of life for you. It feels like that. Yeah, well, I know I meditate, I do breath work, and I've always been fascinated by the fact that the words

breath and the word spirit are the same and most end of European languages. And that I think when we focus our attention on our breath, we're looking at the movement of spirit in the body. So that's, I think that is one very practical, powerful way. And most people ignore it. We have that right under our noses. And we don't make use of it.

I mean, you know, for you to have been at Harvard to have done this research, to have been in the space for so long, it is beautiful to hear you bring science and spirituality together. Yeah. Because I feel for so long there've been seen as opposite. Yeah, and I've never understood that as considering myself a spiritual scientist or a, you know, in that sense of I've always been fascinated

by neuroscience, I've always been fascinated by the brain and at the same time I consider myself a spiritualist. And so hearing you as like a doctor, doing all of this medical work, but then finding the spiritual part and the functional part of San Parts and Medicine, did you always have that when you were studying, because obviously you went off to become a doctor, like when did that?

I think I did always have some of that. I don't know, I think I was born with it. You know, I can remember always being fascinated by the mind and how it related to the body. I'm from as far back as I can remember always being fascinated by the mind and how it related to the body. I mean, from as far back as I can remember. And I tried to study that at Harvard, and I was very frustrated that I couldn't. You know, I started off majoring in psychology, but at that time, psychology at Harvard was completely dominated by the behavior. It was running rats through mazes, And they weren't interested in consciousness.

I wanted to know about consciousness. And nobody was interested in doing that. And then also in the scientific and medical world, consciousness is seen as a product of brain chemistry or electrical connections in the brain. And I came to feel that consciousness is primary. I think consciousness organizes matter.

I think it organizes matter. You know, I think it organizes matter into more and more complex forms, you know, including the human brain. But that, you know, that enrages scientists when I try to talk that one. Do you think we'll ever be able to prove the existence of consciousness? Well, this is in a way that, in a language in a way that I think this is what I see as part of the psychedelic awakening because I think that this really has the potential to chip away at that materialistic paradigm and the influence it now has on our way of thinking. There is, you know, a name for this idea that consciousness is primary. It's called pan-psychism. And that used to be, you know, no scientist would look at that. And now that's become a respectable movement in philosophy, you know, idea that everything

is consciousness down to atoms. And I look forward to seeing that grow and have greater and greater influence. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've always considered consciousness to be like the first self. Absolutely. And, you know, obviously from a spiritual perspective, but even the excellent explanation behind so many near death experiences or out-of-body experiences of the sort. And when I have read scientific studies or even research or accounts of those experiences,

there's a truth that's not been uncovered yet. Absolutely. And as I said, this may be mediated by release of our own endogenous psychedelic, which could very well be DMT. Right, right. Amazing. What a fascinating direction. I'm excited for your book and I'm excited for the work.

Andrew, is there anything that we haven't touched on that you really have? That was a pretty wide-ranging conversation. There's lots more I could talk about, but you know. Well, I'm hoping this can be the first and many. That would be great. I think this is a great conversation for people to, I mean, I'm sure everyone already knows about your work,

but for new people to get introduced to your work, for people to really get a sense of who you are and your journey and parts of your story and your expertise. And I'm hoping that we'll continue to go deeper when the books come out. Because this is honestly being one of those, it's been exactly what I wanted. I needed the dummies guide.

And that's really helpful, because I think so often that steps like mist. I know. And then the majority of the world just doesn't know what's going on. And so I try my best to stay grounded and rooted with my ear to the ground and be like, well, people are hearing these ideas, but they don't know what to do and where it is. Well, you're doing it. It's very good service Well, thank you very kind and I hope that everyone goes to matcha.com. Yes, the code J The books that we were referring to in this episode are the natural mind Which is right here

And then this other book I have from Dr. Andrew Wiley spontaneous happiness, but there is a new book on the way as well. So these are two great starters and look out for Andrew's new book, which I'm sure will be back on the show to talk about when it comes together. So, Andrew, thank you so much for your time and energy. Thank you for being here. It's actually just wonderful being in your presence too. And I love how much life you've lived. And it sounds like you have so many more incredible experiences and stories to share that I look forward to learning.

Okay. But thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your journey, your work. Thank you for giving us so much of a great education today. You're very welcome. Amazing. Everyone who's been listening and watching

back at home, make sure you tag Dr. Andrew Wile and I on Instagram, on Twitter, on TikTok, whatever platform you use, and let us know what you learned from this episode. I hope this gave you an insight into a world that you're probably hearing about, but may not have too much information on. Maybe you're an expert, maybe you knew all of this, but hopefully this will help you introduce it to a friend who may not be as aware as well. Again, thank you so much for listening, make sure you go and follow Andrew across social media if you're a fan, go and order some of the books as well, and thank you so much for joining us on on purpose. I'll see you on the next one. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Aiman on how to change your life by changing your brain.

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