On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Dr. Lisa Miller: Feeling Lost, Stuck or Anxious? (Use THIS Spiritual Framework to Finally Move Forward With Clarity)

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Starting point is 00:01:37 Depression. Why should someone who's never considered themselves spiritual, even consider tapping into their spirituality? Spirituality can fulfill our deepest calling. It allows us to see where the universe is guiding us and then do something about it. Do you believe everything happens for a reason? Shift from asking, why is this happening? to me to how is this happening for me.

Starting point is 00:02:03 Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest on On Purpose is Dr. Lisa Miller, psychologist, Columbia Professor and author of the Awakened Brain. We're going to explore the science of spirituality and how connecting with something bigger can transform your mental health, resilience, and sense of purpose. If you felt stuck or disconnected, this conversation will help you see life through a more awakened mind. If you're listening and loving the conversation, please do go and grab a copy of the awakened brain, the new science of spirituality, and our quest for an inspired life by Dr. Lisa Miller. Please welcome to On Purpose, Lisa. Lisa, it's great to have you here.

Starting point is 00:02:53 Jay, it's so great to be here. Your whole studio feels full of peace and love. Oh, well, that makes me very happy. Thank you for saying that. It means the world to me. My first question for you is, if someone was to listen to our conversation today and to apply the things you share and say, how would their life change? Immediately we can awaken to the reality that every single one of us is loved, held, guided, and never alone. This is not a belief. This is our inborn natural spiritual awareness. One of the things I find interesting about your work, why I wanted to have you on the show is because I've always felt for a long time that there are a lot of people who identify with being scientific and may not feel spiritual.

Starting point is 00:03:39 And then there are other people who identify as being spiritual but don't feel scientific. And the reality is that science and spirituality are far closer in their work and their ability to synchronize than we actually believe. And I love that you bring these two together. Can you talk to me about how you've been studying spirituality in a scientific way? and how science can back up the claim you just made that we could live a life knowing that we're not alone, that we cared for, that God, the universe, our higher power is always there with us.

Starting point is 00:04:10 How does science show that? So, Jay, you're so right. For the longest time, we've had two camps of people. One camp said, I am a very scientific person. I only take to be true that, which is rigorously shown by science. So what is this spirituality stuff? And then the other camp said, I am a deeply spiritual, perhaps spiritual and religious person. I know this in my heart to be true. I don't

Starting point is 00:04:34 care what science can or cannot show. Finally, science and spirituality do go hand in hand. Science is only a lens. It's a lens of witness, whether it's a telescope or a microscope or an MRI study. And we can point our lens at a great number of questions, including the impact of lived human spirituality onto the rest of our lives, and including the deep nature of spirituality in every single one of us and the journey through which across our lifespans, spirituality burgeons and develops. Science is actually not antithetical to spirituality. Science can contribute to a deepening of spirituality. Absolutely. Why do you think people right now were moving away from organized religion and moving towards spirituality. Well, there's definitely a trend right now that

Starting point is 00:05:29 particularly Gen Z is so hungry for spiritual life. Because sadly, over the past two or three decades, our culture has gotten more and more silent. Really, we've had an ice age over the past three decades of spiritual life in the center of society. Our public square has experienced an ice age of 30 years when it comes to spiritual life. There is a. now a whole generation, Gen Z, that is saying, you know, I know there's more. I feel this tremendous love and I wonder where to take it, what to do with it. My deep inner wisdom, my gut instinct, is telling me information and there's nowhere in school that I've learned where this information comes from. The only way to realize who we are is to own our birthright, which is our

Starting point is 00:06:17 inborn, natural spirituality. Spirituality is not a belief. It is an inborn deep seat of perception. Spirituality is not a theory or a belief. Spirituality is a perception that is hardwired in our brain. Spirituality, according to science, we know three things about spiritual life. One, every human being on earth is born naturally spiritual. No matter what our tradition, whether I'm Hindu, Catholic, Jewish, or spiritual, not religious, every single human being on earth is born a naturally spiritual being.

Starting point is 00:06:53 Two, there are even circuits in the brain. One spiritual brain, and everyone on earth has it. Three, although spirituality is inborn, it is one-third and born, two-thirds environmentally shaped, which means we are invited to do our part in strengthening the muscle and building our gift of natural spiritual awareness. The question is not, am I spiritual? You already are spiritual. The question, the real question is how do you wish to accept the invitation? How do you wish to build your spiritual life? Why should someone who's never considered themselves spiritual up until this point, even consider tapping into their spirituality? Why should they do that? The data is so strong that it blinds the eye. A strong spiritual life is 80% protective against addiction,

Starting point is 00:07:45 90% protective against depression when we're otherwise at high risk. 82% protective against the epidemic of our time, which tragically is suicide, a young person's more likely to die by suicide than by what used to be the number one cause of death, which was auto accidents. We have an epidemic of the diseases of despair in most post-industrial countries, and yet we also have the antidote, which is strengthening the muscle of our natural spiritual awareness. Talk to me about the link between spirituality and depression. What does someone who has a spiritual life, what are they doing that's making them less depressed? Depression is often viewed only as a medical illness, but that's actually an error. Very often people say, you know, I have depression or I have

Starting point is 00:08:33 addiction. That's a medical, biological condition in my brain. Spirituality is something else. It's sort of ethereal. Actually, spirituality has circuits in the brain. Any deep, profound, human capacity has circuits in the brain. The question is, how can you, how can you, we strengthen our natural spirituality, body, mind and soul, brain, mind, and soul. How can we awaken our brain to move through depression, through addiction, to a more profound understanding of life? Depression is often the knock at the door for a spiritual awakening. Depression doesn't mean we're off the path. Depression means we are on the past. Anxiety, even trauma, can be the first phase towards looking more deeply at life, widening our lens, starting to feel a presence in our

Starting point is 00:09:26 heart, authorize our inner knowing. Suffering makes us more sensitive. Suffering makes us ask bigger questions. Ultimately, suffering widens the lens. And suddenly we see, we let into the aperture, a frequency of light we hadn't seen before, which is the fact that every single bit of our lives is cast in divinity. From the view of science, when depression is met with a spiritual response. What God do you ask of me? What higher power are you revealing to me? How might I love more deeply despite betrayal? How might I forgive and therefore release myself from the entrapment of anger? When we cultivate a spiritual response to depression, to sorrow, betrayal, we literally strengthen regions of the brain for spiritual awareness. Next time around,

Starting point is 00:10:17 next time there's a hailstorm and I encounter depression, despair, betrayal, a spiritual response is built and ready in the brain. We are more able to bring to life's challenges a spiritual way of knowing. We are more prepared to bring an awakened perception to life's disappointments and hardships. The way you're talking about spirituality right now, it sounds like a response, a way of responding to stressed trauma and pain. How would you define what being spiritual means and looks like as a whole as opposed to just that response? Through the lens of science, spirituality is an inborn perception, but it is one-third inborn, two-thirds, and come in upon us to cultivate.

Starting point is 00:11:03 From the lens of science, spirituality is an inborn seat of awareness through which we perceive, that we are loved, we are guided, and we are never alone. And for each of those core components of spiritual awareness, there's a circuit in the brain. We are loved and held is the bonding network. Same bonding network through which, as young children, we felt loved and held by our parents or grandparents. We are guided. There's a shift from a very narrow, I've got to have it, dorsal to a bottom-up ventral, big wide lens, attention network. Never Alone.

Starting point is 00:11:40 The parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries that lets us know, were alone and distinct and unique and at every instant also part of this great unit of reality, the family of life. Love, held, guided, never alone, is the deep natural spiritual perception built into every single one of our brains. It's now up to us to awaken our brain and bear witness to the actual love guidance and presence that's written into life. The divinity written into life, who I call God, but everyone has their sacred name. Jesus, Hashem, Allah, the universe. The most interesting finding in science, I think, is that just as the brain is wired to perceive, we are loved, held, guided, and never alone. We are built to perceive something real,

Starting point is 00:12:31 which is the nature of life shows up to be loving, holding, guiding, and never leave us alone. It's simply up to us then to strengthen our perception. Every day of our lives, we have opportunity to be in a deep dialogue with the divinity in life. But we have to build the muscle of spiritual awareness. We have to awaken our brain. What about someone who says, I don't have time for spirituality. I don't really need it. I'm fine. What are they missing out on? On the one hand, spirituality is protective against some of the most prevalent forms of suffering right now, depression, addiction, even suicide. But even if it were not for its mental health benefits, Spirituality in and of itself opens the double door to an entirely different journey through life.

Starting point is 00:13:19 If you want to roll out the red carpet in your life, deepen your seat of spiritual awareness, awaking your brain. And suddenly we move from a very narrow understanding of who am I, how well have I done, do I have enough money, am I well known enough, all the sort of markers of outwardness, to a profound dialogue with life. not what do I want and how am I going to get it, which I call achieving awareness. We're liberated from achieving awareness and we can then start to ask, hey, what is life showing me now? What is the universe revealing to me now? Life becomes less of a shopping list and less of a hallway of trophies. And instead, life becomes a very awesome, surprising adventure. We don't get the life we want. that would be way too small a life. We get the life.

Starting point is 00:14:12 If we're an open system, awakened, that is far greater, a much bigger life. We get an inspired life. And I think that's what's hard for people because the hallway of trophies or the grocery list feels tangible and you know what that means. And so it's within our control.

Starting point is 00:14:31 And when something's within our control, we feel more directed towards it. Whereas when we hear about a quest or a journey or inspiration, and it feels so vague that you're like, well, what does that even mean? May we do a practice? Of course. Okay, lovely.

Starting point is 00:14:44 This is a practice that honors exactly, Jay, what you just said, the difference between our laundry list, our grocery list, our trophy hall, and instead, what really is the road of life? Okay. Yeah, good. Let's sit. 90 seconds. Okay.

Starting point is 00:14:59 I invite you to take two breaths and clear out your inner space. I invite you to think of a time where you wanted something so badly. That red door was yours. It was him or her or them to say yes. It was that job, that school, that home. So you did everything right. Planned it, A plus B, plus C. Researched it, ready to close the deal. You reach for your red door. But it stuck. And you can't believe it stuck because you've done everything right. A plus B plus C. You might kick the door, be angry or even depressed. But because the red door is stuck, you shift 20, 40, 110 degrees over there. Over there is a wide open, splendid yellow door. You might have never heard of yellow doors, didn't know they exist. On the other side of the open yellow door is a landscape you had yet to imagine. Someone who makes you feel alive, a job where your boss sees you in a way you didn't even know you were capable. A community where you finally belong. The yellow door was not what you had wanted. It was better,

Starting point is 00:16:19 far better. The yellow door was far better and better for you. So now as you sit back and you think, wow, stuck red door, hairpin turned, taking me to that surprising, wide open yellow door that has everything to do with who you are and where you are today. Was there anyone there at that hairpin turn, a trail angel pointing you to the yellow door. It could have been a counselor, a therapist, it could have been someone you met for two minutes at the coffee shop or a story from a friend or grandparent, the trail angel pointing you to the open yellow door. And finally, sitting way back stuck red door, hairpin turn trail angel, wide open yellow door that has so much to do with who you are.

Starting point is 00:17:13 How really are the most important parts of our lives found? Sure, we have to do our part and plan and try, but is it really through radical control that our lives are formed? Or are we less makers of our path and more discovers of our journey? Where, in your road of life, is your higher power, God, the force, is your higher power in the wide open yellow door and the stuck red door?

Starting point is 00:17:50 Is your higher power in the trail angel and your ability to be an open system in dialogue with the deepest force of life through which we are guided and loved? Is it possible you've already been on a spiritual journey, a great adventure and I invite you back.

Starting point is 00:18:23 Did you relate? Absolutely. So many times. Was there a red door and a yellow door you might share? For sure. I could picture, I pictured a particular moment in my life

Starting point is 00:18:36 but I could have pinned it to so many that I felt a red door not open and a yellow door open that was far better than the red door I ever imagined and the yellow door was one that I would never have ever come up with even if I tried my hardest, if I tried to come up with it myself. And there was definitely a spiritual mentor guiding me

Starting point is 00:18:55 towards the opening of other doors that I may not have thought of. And so every single part of what you said, I could very, very clearly visualize it. Absolutely. And so what you're saying, or what I'm gathering from that for our audience, who hopefully did it as well, is that if you actually reflect upon your life,

Starting point is 00:19:19 you notice that you've already lived the adventure. And so the adventure's already been alive for you. And if you can notice that and remember it, then you can recognize that this next red door that you are now stuck on, to have a spiritual experience of it and look for that yellow door is going to be a healthier, more powerful way to live. That disappointment of the stuck red door, kicking the red door, is actually the beginning of your disqualification.

Starting point is 00:19:49 discovery of the yellow door. So the next time there's a very disappointing, depressing, shut red door, you're invited to ask, hey, I wonder where I might see the yellow door, eyes wide open. We're already on a great spiritual adventure. When we choose to listen to trail angels, when we pay attention to synchronicity, when we listen to the whisper of the voice of God in our heart, in our prayer life or in our meditation life, then we have a choice to participate in the sacred adventure. Jay, many people say to me, you know, I see synchronicities, but I don't know if they're real.

Starting point is 00:20:28 I see trail angels, but I don't really know what it means. What do I do with that? Well, when we pay attention to synchronicity and say, wait, wait a minute, you know, I was just thinking of Jay, and then I got this wonderful invitation to join him on the podcast. I was just reading Jay's book, and now I met someone who's also reading Jay's. book, when we notice the confluence in our lives that are synchronicities and say, hey, wait a minute, that's real. We authorize ourselves as knowers, as spiritual knowers. We awaken and say, that synchronicity is real. Let me reflect, point two, on what this might mean right here, right now,

Starting point is 00:21:07 in terms of what I was just thinking, what I was just doing. Three, let me act on this synchronicity, Right. Authorize ourselves, reflect and act. Once we act, gee, we are participating in the miracle. We are contributors in our road of life. The spiritual adventure heats up. It is that much more splendid when we say yes to the yellow door. I'm going to cross into it. I don't hope for people that they get their red door. I hope for people that we get our yellow door. But we do have to say yes to the guidance. Thank you, trailing. Wow, I'll go somewhere I've never gone before. I'll cross the threshold of that yellow door. And what's on the other side is not what I wanted. It is so much better. It is someone who loves me in a way I didn't know I could be loved. It is a school that's more right for me, not my first choice, not my fifth choice.

Starting point is 00:22:04 It was the perfect choice. Or it's a mentor, a guide who saw a possibility I didn't see in myself. If someone's listening right now and they're feeling completely lost and stuck and out of touch with that spiritual self, where would you suggest they start? The whisper of a hunch that's already in you, telling you say yes to the trail angel, that you intuit that that red door stuck for a reason. Hey, what if you really take seriously your deep inner wisdom, that little whisper of a hunch, what if you really take seriously? that synchronicity. You know, many people say, you know, I thought that that synchronicity was real and my boyfriend told me I was crazy.

Starting point is 00:22:49 Or I thought that the spiritual voice I was hearing was real and people told me I was nuts. But you know what? What if instead you, just for one moment, honor the wisdom that is born inside of you, that you are a splendid spiritual being already built to see and know and be touched by God's presence, you're ready to go. Once we authorize ourselves as spiritual knowers, then the red carpet rolls out before us because we then are in dialogue with a loving, guiding universe. We then are being guided, and that's an entirely different life. That's a spiritual adventure. Can you tell me about how having a spiritual life positively affects our mental health? Yes. Well, a spiritual life

Starting point is 00:23:33 says no matter what comes to me, whether it's what I wanted or didn't want. It could be, you know, My partner betrays me. It could be I didn't succeed at work as I had intended. It could be that my best friend has gotten busy and doesn't have time for me. The disappointments, or they could be more serious. Trauma fall in all of our lives. But our ability to then say, okay, even in my darkest hour, I know that I'm not falling through an abyss. I'm not falling through a black hole.

Starting point is 00:24:03 There's a buoyancy. I'm caught. Well, who caught us? That's the universe. That's God who caught you. Even in our darkest tower, I don't know if I should go left, right or center. You don't need to know. Hand it over.

Starting point is 00:24:15 You don't need to make life's biggest decisions. Hand them over to the deep force of life and your direction is revealed. But you do have to make a choice. And the choice is to pay attention, authorize your knowing, and then act. What do you mean by hand it over? Because I feel, does that mean I do nothing? Does that mean I... Ah, very good point.

Starting point is 00:24:34 So every one of us is born with two forms of knowing. achieving awareness, which is tactic, strategy, how to close the deal, and awaken awareness through which we perceive life's guidance, the deeper direction and love in life. We need both. We can set our North Star through an awakened understanding. Ah, the synchronicity is guiding me to come and follow the path to the right. But how do I turn right? Well, I need tactics and strategy. Any gift from God, a vision of who I'm to become. I'm a healer. I'm someone who's going to serve. if I'm someone who's going to take care of children, I'm someone who wants to invent and create, then needs to be executed. Achieving awareness is how we lay down our contributions. Awaken awareness is how we find our direction. Achieving awareness allows us to implement,

Starting point is 00:25:26 to really make a difference. Spirituality has two directions. One is the vertical, through which we experience inspiration, guidance, and love. The other is the horizontal, through which we lay down and contribute, love and guidance. Inspiration comes often through awakening. Contribution takes tactics, takes strategy.

Starting point is 00:25:46 Children of the light need wonderful sets of skills. I love that approach. I'm so glad you said we need both. Say hello to your new favorite drinks. Introducing new Mick Cafe refreshers. I see cool, undeniably refreshing and available in three flavors. Strawberry watermelon, mango, pineapple, and Blackberry Passion Fruit, only at McDonald's.

Starting point is 00:26:16 Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F-1, including the astrology of the current grid. Lewis Hamilton, Crapicorn Sun, Cancer Moon. Wouldn't you know it, Michael Schumacher is also a Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. The story of the sports most consequential driver's strike.

Starting point is 00:26:40 We have one man who, upon hearing that he was, was going to be fired, freaked out, and apparently climbed out the window of the bathroom. And was Daniel Ricardo's illustrious F1 career, a success story, a cautionary tale, or some combination of both? He started getting all this attention, and he maybe started to think, I'm bigger than this, I'm better, and plenty of other mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things.

Starting point is 00:27:20 I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world, fighting for our lives.

Starting point is 00:27:50 All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it, I'm going to go through it.

Starting point is 00:28:07 Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've always felt that sometimes spirituality and religion have both had this bad misconception where people see it as a crutch because it's like, oh yeah, well, I'm just going to hand everything over to the universe and I'm not going to do anything about it. And that almost feels spiritual. It sounds detached, but actually it isn't. It's almost irresponsible. Well, how we treat one another is. a spiritual choice. Just as we're loved and guided by source,

Starting point is 00:28:50 by the universe, we can choose to be loving and guiding to one another. Both are forms of an awakened relationship, an awakened relationship to behold God and a relationship to behold God in you. If I see you, my brother, as an expression, like a ray from the same son of God, the universe, then our relationship becomes an awakened relationship.

Starting point is 00:29:14 relationship. We can have an awakened relationship with God. We can have an awakened relationship to one another. It's very easy to stay on the mountaintop where it feels whole and glorious and bright. But Jay, what you've done in choosing to come down the mountain and be whole and bright here on earth towards fellow living beings is itself a profound act of awakened spirituality. Well, I mean, for me, I'd actually say that I was fortunate because I gained more conviction in the teachings that I learned during my time as a monk in the real world. Because putting them into practice was far more the real test and the real exam. It's almost like I learned all of these things in school. And then when I came to the real world and actually had to apply them and I saw them work, it only gave me more faith and conviction that what I did.

Starting point is 00:30:09 learned was valuable and deep and profound, whereas if you only ever use them in the training ground, you don't ever get to see how powerful they are, if that makes sense. Relational spirituality. So will you tell a story or example? Was there a moment where you saw karma happen? One of my favorite statements from the Vedic traditions is that when you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you. And I remember reading and studying that for a while, and I was always trying to dissect the statement to understand what it meant. And I was always fascinated by the word protect, because I think in the Western world,

Starting point is 00:30:45 we always talk about living our purpose or finding our purpose or discover your purpose. And here the ancient Eastern wisdom was saying, protect your purpose, which means you already have it. You protect what you have. You don't protect something you don't own. So this idea that you already had a purpose and your job was to protect it,

Starting point is 00:31:03 I started to notice all the ways in which I wasn't protecting my purpose. And when I was in the world of work, I saw that in the world of work, they were trying to get us to be a certain way. But there was a part of me inside me that was like, but that's not who you are. Like this is who you are. This is your talent. This is your gift. This is your skill. This is your values. Be that. And that inner voice of knowing that that soft, quiet voice that was like, no, don't just become, you know, the, what do you call it? Don't just become the robot version of yourself. Focus on becoming the true. And that's a real voice. And version of yourself. And that took a lot of courage and stress because everyone around you is doing

Starting point is 00:31:42 the same thing and you're pulling away. But I saw that as protecting my purpose. And having lived that and now living my purpose fully, I saw that if I didn't protect it at that time, I would have just given it away and foregone my purpose. Is that purpose built into you? Is that a divine purpose? I believe so. I believe so because I didn't come up with it one day. It didn't, you know, it wasn't something that I sat down and figured out. It was something that was revealed. And I think a lot of what I've pursued in my life has been revealed through an connection, not there are, there are strategic elements of the vehicle through which it's disseminated. So for example, the podcast, I felt excited about doing a podcast, but I also saw that a podcast was a great way of connecting

Starting point is 00:32:29 with people and having amazing conversations like this one. And so that becomes the achieved awareness. as you called it, the strategic part. But the desire to want to spread wisdom, that was not strategic at all. That was an inner calling. I didn't come up with that. Like, it wasn't my intelligence that went, yeah, that's what I meant to do.

Starting point is 00:32:50 It was revealed, if that makes sense. Profoundly. And we all have our spiritual calling. As you put so beautifully, you are a natural communicator. We all have our gifts. And we also have our areas that are not gifts. For sure. In balance, that is not a win and a lose.

Starting point is 00:33:08 Those are both wins, because both our strengths and our not strengths allow us to discern our true calling. Where, as a child of infinite worth, as a soul on earth, as a being of God, of infinite worth, how do I discern my calling? How do I discern? And I think what you've said so beautifully, our calling is revealed. There's a deep inner wisdom when we listen to the whisper of the hunch inside of us. us. There is a purpose to us much greater than our traits, than our successes, than our outwardness. Their soul has a purpose. How do we become better listeners to that inner guidance? Because I feel that the more we ignore it, the quieter it gets. And a lot of us for many years have had to ignore it,

Starting point is 00:33:54 whether it was because of parent expectations or outward forces or just the busyness of life. And all of a sudden, you're now 30 years old, 40 years old, 50 years old, and you're thinking, I don't even know what I'm meant to do. Like they're talking about revealing and finding, but I don't have a clue. What do we do? How do we listen better? May we do another practice? Please, I'd love to.

Starting point is 00:34:16 I love this place. Beautiful. This is a practice. I always thank my teacher from the late Dr. Gary Weaver. I invite you again 90 seconds to take two breaths, clear out your inner space. I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. And to your table, you may invite anyone, living or deceased, who truly has your best interest in mind.

Starting point is 00:34:55 Anybody living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind. And with them all sitting there, ask them if they love you. Ask them if they love you. And now you may invite your higher self, the part of you that is so much more than anything you may have done or not done, anything you have or don't have, your true eternal higher self, and ask you if you love you. Ask you if you love you. And now finally, you may invite your higher power, whatever your word, however you know, your higher power, and ask if they love you. Ask if they love you. And now with all of those people

Starting point is 00:36:07 sitting here right now, what do they need to share? What do they need to tell you now? What do you need to know? What do they say to you now? When you're ready, I invite you back. How did you experience that? It was really clear who I picked to the table. That was easy. And then... Who was there? My spiritual teacher and his spiritual teacher who passed away who I never met. So those are the two people I chose. So my spiritual teacher is still alive. And then his teacher who I never met, but they were both at the table.

Starting point is 00:37:13 And I definitely feel loved by them. Like that's not even a, it's not, it's like beyond. I feel overflowing, overwhelmed with the amount of love I feel from both of them. And then when you ask me the question of, do I love myself? I felt very grateful that I have the ability to do that. And then when you asked me about what I need to hear from them and felt very clear to me that, I mean, for me it was to continue doing what I'm doing, to continue to be a vessel and an instrument for this wisdom and work that I'm doing

Starting point is 00:37:53 and to know that I'm always protected. And so it was very clear. and I'm so excited to hear what my audience gained from their reflection from that because I feel what you gave us there was a really, really beautiful way of listening, which feels like no matter whether you consider yourself spiritual or not, you'd be able to connect to that because the idea of having dinner or being at a table with people you know and love and love you is something that feels very real.

Starting point is 00:38:24 I love that as an exercise for people to listen more deeply. that's really brilliant. It's so beautiful from your teacher as well. A gift from the late Dr. Carrey Waiver. Yeah, what an incredible meditation. I really want you all who are listening and watching at home to share with me your reflections as I'm sharing mine through these meditations because it's, yeah, I'm really excited to hear what people gain from them. And I'm assuming that this exercise can be done at any time when people are feeling disconnected from that inner voice. At any time, if we have a big decision to make or if we're feeling despairing and alone, we can call counsel.

Starting point is 00:39:03 Counsel is always present and ready to convene. Those who truly have your best interest in mind living or deceased will always show up. And who shows up may change depending on where we are in the road of life, what guidance we might need. For example, my youngest child is an adventurer. She ran a 200-mile ultramarathon. She walked across Japan. Who watches over her is her great-grandfather, my grandfather Bill, himself an outdoorsman. He would likely show up at her counsel.

Starting point is 00:39:36 But my other child, who's 23 and living in New York and making movies, who would show up at her, is probably her artistic great-grandmother, who herself loved language and story. So we're loved by all of our ancestors, but we do have guides. We do have profoundly present sacred guides living and deceased. These are spiritual relationships. And Jay, it's so interesting as we look through the lens of science, the same way that a connection to God protects us against depression, a relationship to our ancestors protects us against depression. Every single person at the table who loves us, who guides us, who protects us is a real relationship. And when we awaken to the true sacred relationships surrounding us, we are guided into a far greater spiritual adventure and we are less depressed and addicted because the bumps in the road, those are absolutely essential for the deeper path that each of us journeys.

Starting point is 00:40:43 I love them. I'm so glad we did that. Thank you for sharing that with me. I was thinking about it from the scientific perspective. You've done brain scans where people record profound spiritual experiences, could you give us some examples of those and what did you see happening in the brain? Jay, we ask people of all different faith traditions. So some people were Christian, others were Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, spiritual but not religious. And no matter what tradition someone may observe or not observe spiritual but not religious, the same neural circuits run in our brain when we encounter God, the deep force of life. We ask people, a very simple question. No one was confused by the question. We asked people, Gen Z, really, we asked, tell us about a time where you were really struggling in life, where you felt disconnected

Starting point is 00:41:36 or frustrated or lost, or you felt not enough that you'd failed or were somehow unworthy, felt like a loser. Nobody was confused by that question. And then part two, we said, and in your struggle, you turned to God, you walked through, your nature. You meditated or prayed or suddenly, perhaps, even unsolicited, you felt touched by sacred presence. And the road of life took a turn. Tell us about a time that started out difficult, but through the inspiration and guidance of God, took a different turn. We've asked this question of hundreds of young adults. No one's ever been confused. But about half say, wow, I'm so glad you asked, because no one's ever asked me that before. A spiritually nonconversant society is

Starting point is 00:42:22 silencing our whole rising generation of Gen Z. They are exquisitely gifted and they are not being listened to. We welcome people into the MRI machine. They tell the story that they've told so many times about being touched by their higher presence. They tell the story that they'd previously shared with us about being touched by the higher presence. And we then play back their own story in their own voice in their ears inside the MRI machine. And what we saw was extraordinary. As we walk through a spiritual experience, the same neural correlates come online in every single person. It doesn't matter if I'm Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Catholic, spiritual, but not religious. Nature is my cathedral. The same neural correlates run. And they are the bonding network. We perceive that suddenly, at that

Starting point is 00:43:15 inflection point where we feel God's presence, we are loved and held. The bonding network comes up online. Suddenly, at the inflection point, we know that we are guided. And suddenly the parietal starts putting in and out hard boundaries, letting us know that we are never alone. Loved and guided, never alone. Every single one of us is able to perceive that we are loved, held, guided, and never alone. What do these stories? sound like. You know, I just got turned down at seven out of eight colleges. I'm feeling like such a loser. I'm never going to go to college like my parents and my grandparents wanted me to. And I'm walking down the street, feeling completely unworthy. I really wanted to be a nurse. I'm not getting

Starting point is 00:43:59 into nursing school. Eight out of nine rejections. Nursing school may not be in the cards for me. But then I see light in the leaves. And I know I will be a healer in the way that God has intended for me. the profound rearrangement of meaning, the aha, the awakening, the illumination that speaks to a deeper, wiser part of ourselves. Or I was going to get married. I dated a boy for three years in college. I even had a promise ring. We were going to get married the year after we graduated. And then the week before graduation, he called it off. I've never felt so unloved and unlovable. I felt so unattractive, so undesirable. But then I went home and sitting in the pews of my childhood house of worship by my parents and by my grandparents, I suddenly felt my family's love. And then I felt a greater love. I felt God's love. And I knew, yes, I will love again.

Starting point is 00:45:00 Jay, so many young people stop at the pain. So many of us, and can happen to any of us, stop at the pain. But the pain is actually an invitation. It's a banging at the door to listen for the illumination. And the brain is built just like a catch in the catcher's meant, sure is day, to receive the guidance to catch the illumination. The Bagwood Gita, which is the text of India, the primary spiritual text of India,

Starting point is 00:45:32 it's based on a battlefield. It's a historic story about the best archer in the world who's on a battlefield, and he's having to fight his family. which he's really sad about, doesn't want to, and he's actually feeling anxious. And that's the beginning of his awakening conversation with God called Krishna, who's his charioteer, who's actually directing and driving his chariot on the battlefield. And they have this divine conversation that lasts these 700 verses of the Bhagavad Gita, 45-minute conversation.

Starting point is 00:46:07 And it's all about learning, but it all starts like, anxiety is the beginning of inquiry. And what I find fascinating about that, having studied it for many years, is that we live in a world where we think of anxiety in these things as bad where we've got to suppress them or push them away or never have them again, when in fact it's almost like life is designed in a way to get them to ask the right questions. And we almost, because sometimes it's so painful, we don't know how to rise to a deeper question because it feels so hard. So talk to me about that and reflect on that for me and how do we do that? Jay, and in that way, yes, depression is the opening to transcendence.

Starting point is 00:46:50 Depression does not make us smaller. When we say, yes, what is life showing me now? What questions come to my heart that I wouldn't have asked otherwise? Why am I feeling so anxious? What do I fear losing? Why does it hurt so badly? Did I maybe, you know, there's a blind spot, just like we have a blind spot in our car,

Starting point is 00:47:13 between the person that I want to be and think I am and the person that I may actually be living out. And that blind spot is the zone for growth. That's our opportunity. When there's a big blind spot, suffering is an invitation to help narrow the blind spot. How can I be more loving or maybe need to be more autonomous,

Starting point is 00:47:35 whatever the welcome gift is? The blind spot is not a moral failing. is an invitation for growth and spiritual growth. Well, the same is true in our relationship to God or the higher power. There's a blind spot between the sense of the world as we know it and the profound, sacred world as it really is. Suffering is an invitation to narrow the blind spot and move more ever more into a world that is one in which we see God's guidance,

Starting point is 00:48:03 know each other from a spiritual, you are my brother, you are my sister. It doesn't matter if you happen to have similar different views. politically or about anything else for that matter, you're my brother. The last thing I'd want to do is limit our lives to other people's ideas when in fact we have an ultimate opportunity for an authentic, direct, spiritual relationship with every single person around us. Do you believe everything happens for a reason? I believe that we can shift from asking, why is this happening to me, to how is this happening for me. So despite its origin, every moment is an opportunity for profound spiritual awakening. We can

Starting point is 00:48:48 bring a spiritual lens and say, ah, I can feel God's presence even now in this moment of trauma and quaking. I do not fall through the abyss. God is holding me. I can bring my deep perception of the guidance written into life and say, I've never encountered this before. You know, my father just died. I don't how to live in this world without my father. But wait a minute, my father can be a conduit to God the father, God the mother, and start to evermore see the guidance written into life. So when we have, and it's a choice, a spiritual response to whatever comes, we can ask the question, how is this happening for me? And that's a great way of checking in with our intuition as well? And listening to our intuition, that little whisper of a hunch. You know, Jay,

Starting point is 00:49:38 There are regions in the brain for intuition. There are regions in the brain for mystical awareness. These are valid, hardwired forms of knowing. When we ignore this surefire knowledge, it's to our peril in those around us. We're being given guidance. And certainly, we're being pointed, life's pointing us to the double door for a much more interesting life. So, you know, it's worth asking, hey, wait a minute, what was the most important decision that you you ever made in your life? Was it about your family? Was it about your business? Was it a moral

Starting point is 00:50:14 decision? What was the most important decision that you ever made in your life? And was that made narrowly from adding up the pros and cons and making a long list of the 18 points? Or did you turn to a deeper form of knowing, intuition, inspiration, and mystical awareness being touched in meditation or prayer life? Was there an awakened, knowing that guided your most important decision. And how do you know the difference? How do you know if you're listening to your gut or your fear? The more we pay attention to our awakened awareness, the more we become pitch perfect.

Starting point is 00:50:51 So at first it might feel a little rusty or a little awkward, but the more we say yes, that guidance feels real. I'm going to act on it. And then sure enough, the proof is in the pudding. When we do act on synchronicity, a hunch, a mystical awareness, who should come around the corner? but the answer to our quandary. There is no difference between internal awareness and external unfolding. Consciousness is in us, through us, and around us.

Starting point is 00:51:20 When we listen to the guidance so-called internally, we are on the path to the answers to our quandaries externally. You've used God quite often in our conversation today. My word is God. Yes. And I wanted to ask you, do you have to believe in God to be spiritual? I think to be spiritual, we only need to listen to how the deepest force in life touches and guides us. What you call that deepest force in life and how you fashion that conceptually is very secondary.

Starting point is 00:51:54 It's way downstream from the foundational catch in the catcher's mitt of perception, of awareness of the love and guidance. To be spiritual is to pay attention to the love and guidance. that's already there. And in fact, many people say, you know, actually the most important decision of my life, that I did make through my intuition. Somehow I just knew in my heart that we should move or not move, that we should have a child or not have a child. I just knew in my heart. Listening to our awakened awareness brings an entirely different life. When we listen to that whisper of a hunch, when we pay attention to synchronicities, listening to our awakened awareness,

Starting point is 00:52:39 brings forward another life. Why? Because consciousness is in us, through us, and around us. Awakened awareness allows us to hear the guidance that has everything to do with the on-the-ground, real physical reality

Starting point is 00:52:51 that we're about to encounter, whether that's a premonition or guidance to find the people in our lives. We and our own family, Jay, we struggled. My husband and I struggled for five, years looking for our child. We could not find our child, and it was profoundly depressing to me.

Starting point is 00:53:13 And my husband was so depressed, I found him on the floor one night. He was shaking. My, you know, big, strong husband was literally crying and shaking because no children had come into our lives. I went to every top fertility doctor in the country. I went to the team that had the highest rates of conception. I went to the team up and down the East Coast that invented in vitro, and yet nobody came. And it was only once I started paying attention to the synchronicities and the guidance, the unprobabilistic events in my life. And then started having mystical experiences that, to which I said, yes, this is real information, that we followed the golden thread and found our child on the other side of the earth, a beautiful boy who was, of course, our spiritual

Starting point is 00:54:03 child. Now, if I just took spirituality as a nice feeling or something that happens inside of me or as a way of coping, it would have nothing to say about an action plan in the world. But spirituality is highly practical, actionable guidance through which we can fulfill our deepest calling, our true path, and support the calling of those around us. My son would still be in an orphanage if I didn't think synchronicities were real. My husband and I would not be parents if I didn't think synchronicities were real. Spirituality is not just a nice thing or icing on the cake. It is the bedrock. It is the only landscape through which we can live our lives in a whole and radiant way. And that's also you accepting that yellow door, even in that scenario. The glorious

Starting point is 00:54:53 yellow door. The glorious yellow door. Because spirituality doesn't mean everything you want. And like you talked but earlier with the grocery list, spirituality doesn't mean that it happens how I want it to happen when it happens. Like that's not spirituality. No, no, it's not a transaction. Yeah. Which I think is so much of the misconception of not only how spirituality is spoken about today, but people's belief that if I'm spiritual. Well, that's the ego driving the bus, right? If I think that because I'm spiritual, I'm going to get pregnant right away, if I think that because I'm spiritual, my hopes and dreams are going to all come true, that's actually putting myself in the driver's seat and saying,

Starting point is 00:55:34 me and me alone, I know the way. But spirituality actually is the ability to look and see what the universe is saying and then act. I mean, we don't sit home and do ice cream and do nothing. Spirituality allows us to see where the universe is guiding us and then do something about it. Paying attention to synchronicity and then acting allows us to be part of the miracle, listening to a mystical experience, knowing that a visitation is real. And then acting allows us to collaborate in the miracle, allows us to be actors in a divine journey. Say hello to your new favorite drinks. Introducing new Mick Cafe refreshers. Icey cool, undeniably refreshing and available in three flavors. Strawberry watermelon, mango pineapple, and blackberry passion fruit. Only at McDonald's.

Starting point is 00:56:32 Hi, this is Joe Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like, are misunderstood. A son and Venus and Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach

Starting point is 00:57:08 to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chartside view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music

Starting point is 00:57:51 and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point.

Starting point is 00:58:14 Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me, each night, each morning. Say you love me. You know. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's talk about two practical things, because you said spirituality is actually practical. Very practical.

Starting point is 00:58:52 I want to talk about two areas of our life that I think a lot of our audience struggles with or is looking for. And so let's start with love, first of all. So much of our audience is looking for love. People are exhausted. We're dating right now. People are struggling with. There's plenty of fish in the sea. there's just ultimate unlimited options.

Starting point is 00:59:11 How can becoming more spiritual help you find love? Oh. Many people say I listened to this gut instinct. I'd never been to that bar before. I'd never been since. But I just felt like somehow I should go. You know, my friend was lonely. She asked me to meet her,

Starting point is 00:59:29 and it was the right thing to do when I went. And sure enough, that night, I met the guy who I eventually married. And he never went to that bar either. far too unprobabilistic to have happened by chance. Or you know what, I've always been kind of sheepish about those platforms. I didn't know if I'd go on, but I finally did. And do you know what? My husband never wanted to use those platforms either, but he did. And we found each other. These unprobabilistic meetings, these guided, inspired, really meant to be guided, inspired meetings are extraordinary

Starting point is 01:00:01 for igniting love, are extraordinary for guiding us against all odds. to find each other in a big universe through all space and time. But then, that's only part one, that love is divinely guided. Part two is that we then need to put divinity into the relationship. It is a big roll up the sleeves and do our job. Love someone, even when they're difficult. Love someone more deeply when they're at their most irascible and struggling. No, you know, is there something I'm doing right now in the relationship that's starving? the relationship. I'll give you an example, you know, let's start at home. I remember my husband and I went through, good, you know, it wasn't just three days, maybe three weeks, pushing a month of

Starting point is 01:00:47 standoffishness, you know, not arguing, just distance. And I was thinking, you know, why does it feel so empty, so stale in here? Why is there a latent tension in the air? You know, and, you know, we'd even sort of find a way to not eat dinner at the same time together, you know, and he'd eat his special meal and I'd eat by a special meal. I had a sense, Jay, that somehow I didn't know the way back to him and he didn't know the way back to me. So I effectively took our standoff to counsel. I asked my higher power. And for me, the word is God. I prayed to God and I said, you know, there is this standoff. You know, please fill my heart with love. Might you show me how we can find our way back to each other, God. And what came, Jay was an image of my husband looking nourished and

Starting point is 01:01:40 ruddy and fully fed, and I realized I had been starving him. For my end, I'd been starving him emotionally. I'd been so busy with my own thing. I'd been so unwilling to pick up the rope on whatever was dogging him. God gave me an image, the universe presented before me, an image of possibility of how I might more nourish my husband. love. We don't need to take our failings, our shortcomings, our blind spots as moral failure. Our struggles are an invitation to turn to life, turn to God, turn to our higher power, and say, might you fill my heart with love and show me an image of possibility? And the direction is indeed very surprising. It is a yellow door pointing us somewhere, an answer to the problem.

Starting point is 01:02:31 psychology has really gotten it wrong. Psychology says that if I'm feeling guilty about the standoff with my husband or if I'm feeling angry about the thin emotional connection right now we might be sharing, I should somehow come up with happier thoughts about myself or happier thoughts about us and our marriage. Much of cognitive therapy is a debate to feel better, bigger, stronger. But actually, just as when I touch a hot stove, I feel a heat that's real. our emotions are exquisite detectors of the truth in our lives.

Starting point is 01:03:05 We can take that truth even if it's a little bitter to the taste and hand that over to the force of life and say, with deep love, please, will you show me possibility? Might I ask for direction, source of life, who I call God? And the image that comes or the synchronicity to unfold or the unlikely turn of events is indeed the opening of the yellow door. It expands us in our perception. to awaken and be more loving.

Starting point is 01:03:34 What if you're spiritual and your partner isn't, can it work? Yes. It is very important that spirituality not make us judgmental about the people around us. You know, I think very often I hear I went on a retreat or maybe I tried psilocybin or I've been working on my meditation life and my partner is just not spiritual enough anymore. I have surpassed him, right? The spiritual road is not one in which you dust people and leave them behind. It's one in which you go back and get them.

Starting point is 01:04:06 Now, it may or may not be that your partner wants to pursue a spiritual life, but can you love them from a spiritual place in your heart? Could you be married to a spiritual civilian? And that's a question about the depth and breadth of your own heart. Yeah. Does it make it harder? Because I feel like there's a lot of, now what you hear, a lot of is, oh, well, you know, if they're not spiritual, I can't be with them. If they don't go to

Starting point is 01:04:31 therapy, I can't be with them. Because people are wanting people to have a certain level of emotional maturity or emotional intelligence that they hope comes with spirituality or going to therapy. Yes. I know many people feel that way. Most people feel that way. But that's actually not my view. My view is that can we love someone for who they are and where they are, particularly if we've made a commitment as a family, or if we've made some type of lifelong commitment. It doesn't say, to death due us part, doesn't mean until you have surpassed them in your growth. To death to us part means that this is not a contract. Marriage isn't a deal. It's a calling. Can you love someone for who they are in their journey? We don't need to marry our identical twin, and we don't need to make a lifelong

Starting point is 01:05:21 commitment to an identical twin. In fact, life's much more interesting. when we compliment each other. My husband and I have been married for 30 years. I've had one spouse, one house, and one job, from which anything else is possible. When we get the bedrock of our lives set firm, then we can really erect a meaningful life together. We're not identical twins. My husband and I have different interests. We have different vocabularies. We probably have different maps of reality. But Jay, I absolutely adore him and I know he loves me, not because he's just like me, really a bit because he isn't. I can relate to that with me and my wife too.

Starting point is 01:06:05 Yes? Yeah, even though we both have a similar spiritual practice, the way we practice it is so different and the way we live it in the world is so different and the way we express it is so different. And I couldn't agree with you more that to me when I was trained in spiritual, spirituality, and non-judgment are almost synonymous to me

Starting point is 01:06:27 in how you practice it. Like you can't be spiritually enlightened or you can't be spiritual and be judgmental. Those two things just don't live together. And it's fascinating to me how when we start to become spiritual, how judgmental we can be because it defeats the whole purpose

Starting point is 01:06:46 of everything you're doing. As a spiritual person, you're trying to become more compassionate to yourself and others, more loving to yourself and others, not passively, but expanding your radius of care and how much you can understand and comprehend, but so often it does exactly the opposite. I had a really good example of this. I invited, I don't know if you know who she is, but I invited Julia Fox onto my podcast. I'm not sure if you're aware of who she is. And if not, I can give you a bit of background.

Starting point is 01:07:13 So Julia Fox is known as an actress and a model today, but her background is that she grew up in an abusive home, became a sex worker in her teens, then became a dominatrix, then left that world, became an actress, a model, and is now three years celibate, three years sober, and takes care of she's a single mom to a young son. I'd read her book and I was blown away by her transformation and saw it as truly spiritual and work that she's done on discovering herself and finding herself through all of these phases of life. And it's really interesting because before people had heard this version of her, I brought her out on stage at an event in New York at Madison Square Garden at the theatre.

Starting point is 01:07:59 And the audience was like, Jay, why would you bring out Julia Fox? Like there was this judgment. And I addressed it because I could feel it. And I said, hey, just listen to the end of this conversation. And then you can decide how you feel it's your choice. But stay with me and we spoke. And then at the end of it, the amount of people that came up to me and said, Jay, I'm so sorry, I judged at the beginning, but actually I learned so much from her,

Starting point is 01:08:20 and she's so smart, and she's so eloquent, and she seems like such a wonderful person. Well, and from you, Jay, they learned love. They learned radical, true, unconditional love. And from her, Julia, they learned that the spirit is far greater than our struggles, the traps we may have been in in our past. Our spirit is infinite. And look how she said, yes, and listened to the guidance, and saw the love. What an extraordinary. teaching. Incredible. You know, it's so easy to say, okay, in my partnership, I'll give you an example, I share in the awakened brain that in the journey to find Isaiah, there were very, I'm very grateful for some very sacred mystical visitations. Now, I didn't say, oh, I've had mystical visitations,

Starting point is 01:09:08 and honey, you haven't, therefore I'm ahead on the path. No, I think the mystical visitation to one member of the partnership is to be shared by both. So if you happen to be perhaps more spiritually perceptive, if you happen to be on a more intense or palpable or vivid spiritual path, then you have the opportunity to bring that home and share that guidance, offer that love to the partnership. You know, the data shows that very often families are enriched and made spiritual by one lead partner and someone else in the partnership is bringing something else. My kids mirrored that back to me. They said, you know, mommy's on a path and mommy's so spiritual. But if it were just mommy, we'd be living in a tent or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But if it were just daddy,

Starting point is 01:10:01 it'd be way too strict. We think you're a good balance. That's amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely. If someone's dating, how can they stop avoiding the voice inside of them that tells them this is the wrong person? Because I feel like we often justify someone is right for us because of the outward boxes that they tick or the fact that our family and friends think they're amazing. But inside of ourselves, we knew it. And then when they leave us, it feels like we were double dumped because we already knew it, but then they left us. Well, Jay, I think you're pointing to the importance of hearing the deep inner wisdom. Every one of us has a spiritual compass that always points to the truth. The more we listen and pay attention to the inner spiritual compass,

Starting point is 01:10:46 the more we become pitch perfect in hearing the guidance. But if we're just a little rusty or we're getting our feet wet, we can always take the question to counsel. Take the question, is this guy right for me, to your counsel? Ask those who truly have your best interest in mind, your higher self and your higher power. Hey, what say you? Because counsel is there to answer any question to bring guidance at any juncture in the road. And in fact, we can bring a problem to counsel. We can bring a person to counsel. Counsel is a place in our soul, in our neuro wiring, where we can

Starting point is 01:11:27 return to receive an awakened response, to receive awakened guidance. Once we practice, counsel, I suggest to people an invitation to try counsel every time, every day. I offer people the invitation to practice counsel every day because then we become accustomed to returning into the place of transcendent relationship. We become a little bit more nuanced in the ability to hear guidance. And ultimately, we become more aware of the guidance within ourselves, which is the voice of God, the universe. Let's shift to talk about money. Yes. Because you just mentioned there that your kids said, hey, if we just said, mom, we'd live in a tent.

Starting point is 01:12:09 Yes. If we had dad, it'd be too strict, so it's a good balance. What is the practical connection between spirituality and money? Our spiritual perception allows us to walk our true path, our true calling. And when we do, there is abundance. It's not our preordained mail order vision of abundance. It is big A abundance that comes in many forms. It comes in oftentimes meaningful relationships.

Starting point is 01:12:38 It comes in a sense of fullness and sparkle in the world. It comes to fullness in our heart. And very often when we are on our authentic path, we find that the finances end up getting covered. I don't mean to preach a prosperity message where, oh, you'll get loads of money if you're spiritual. Spirituality is not a transaction. But spirituality will align us with our path

Starting point is 01:13:00 through which the road rises up to meet us. and we very often do find that we're provided for. What mistakes do you think spiritual people make when it comes to money? I think the biggest mistake early in the spiritual path is to sequester our spiritual life as being separate from our work life. But in fact, how we show up at work is a spiritual endeavor. Even if we don't like the job, even if we may not in five years or ten years be doing the same professional, for the same profession we do now, when we show up with an authentic spiritual voice

Starting point is 01:13:37 and say, you know what, I'm not going to make an immoral decision, even though my boss is leaning on me. You know, I do think there is a purpose in the fact that this client right now has told me that his wife has dying. I feel in my heart love for the other side of the steel and I don't want to exploit them or take advantage of them.

Starting point is 01:13:58 When we bring our spiritual heart to work, We make more ethical decisions, and in the end, we make win-win decisions. An awakened decision is a win-win decision. It is far more sustainable and, yes, more outwardly profitable in the long run. So the biggest mistake we can make is to leave our spiritual selves at home. And as a boss, the biggest mistake we can make further down the line in our careers is to silence the spiritual voice of people sitting at the work table. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:14:29 I have a lot of friends who'd consider themselves to be spiritual. Many of them are depressed and not financially secure. When you tell me that people of spiritual are less depressed and they should have an abundance opportunity, I don't always see that translate into reality and I'm trying to understand where they're tripping up or going wrong. Yeah, oftentimes I hear spirituality is in the ashram. Spirituality is in removing myself from commerce or the bank or the career that I've pursued for 25 years.

Starting point is 01:15:06 I would say just the opposite. Spirituality is bringing your deepest wisdom and soulfulness into the bank, the profession of 20 years. When we separate ourselves out of the flow of life, we've taken ourselves out of the energy field. We've taken ourselves out of the majestic symphony that is. is the embodied spiritual reality. Society isn't unspiritual. Everyone's born in spiritual. Society is the embodied spiritual reality.

Starting point is 01:15:36 Now, how much are we going to cultivate that reality and what are we going to bring to it? How are we going to show up? I think we end up depressed and poor when we isolate ourselves, when we sequester ourselves, and certainly when we feel holier than thou. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like that approach,

Starting point is 01:15:53 because going back to the Gita, Because Arjun's an archer, he's a warrior. He's told by God to do his duty, which is to protect and to fight. And that's quite a remarkable direction from God to be saying you should fight rather than Arjun is actually saying, I think I should just go to the forest and meditate, and I don't need this land and it doesn't matter. And God's like, no, you need to protect future generations and you need to be ahead of it. And you're doing your duty.

Starting point is 01:16:20 You were born a warrior. And so carry out that duty. Yes, were you born a warrior? Me? Probably a little bit. Yeah, I've got a bit of that for sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I relate to that too. Yeah. Trying to make change within major institutions is foundationally spiritual. You in the center of society, I've been doing this work in science and in academia and in the Pentagon. I think that when we work from a deep spiritual awareness, then we're actually part of a mission.

Starting point is 01:16:49 And it can be at times a spiritual fight. Yeah. And it can be at times. Spirituality is highly embodied. Spirituality is everything to do about fighting the good fight, standing up for what's right. Spirituality has everything to do with building and creating something that is inherently good. So spirituality is not just the contemplative practice, and it's not just being soft and gentle. There are times where righteous indignation, a firm back, speaking up for what's true, fighting to build something to create a land that has spiritual values, is a highly profound active devotion. Spirituality is not something that's quiet and mousy. Frituality is very often something that is active and strong and uncompromising. I think a lot of people right now, when they look at the

Starting point is 01:17:37 world, they think that there's nothing spiritual, obviously, about what's going on. How do you think about that? Oh, I think we're having birthing pains for an extraordinary collective awakening. I think that I'm tremendously full of empirically grounded hope. Just as each and every one of us moves through suffering to transcendence, that depression leads to transcendence awakening, I think as a society we're on the brink of awakening to a far more spiritual center-field way of living and treating each other. We're on the brink of a much more spiritual society.

Starting point is 01:18:13 What do you think? I think people ask better questions and get more committed to do it, amazing work in the world when things are not going great. So I think that when we see pain in the world and we feel motivated to want to make a change and contribute, I see so many people who are getting more involved in charity work and getting more involved in philanthropy. I see so many people who are wanting to go out and make a difference. To me, that's spiritual, that sometimes the alarm clock gets louder and louder and louder

Starting point is 01:18:42 to wake us up because otherwise if it's on snooze, we kind of get complacent. And so I always feel that anxiety and tragedy and it's a painful reality, and I wish we didn't function that way. But humans almost wait for things to get really bad before we do something about it. And if you don't know what to do, you can, just as I shared in my marital challenge, right, hand it over. Seek direction from the source. Meditate on it, pray, see what inspiration comes. if the old way of working isn't going to give us a good answer, then open up perhaps to a spiritual direction.

Starting point is 01:19:24 And I see, to your point, Jay, a lot of people, yes, they keep their day job. Yes, they still show up. But they're showing up in a different way. And suddenly, I just heard from a fellow who'd been a trader on Wall Street for 20 years. He said, you know, I've had a spiritual awakening recently. And now I'm showing up on the trading floor in an entirely different way. And I noticed the young guys are coming to me and they're asking for advice, advice with their partners, advice with their bosses. There must be something that I'm giving off.

Starting point is 01:19:55 Some sort of peace, some sort of solidity, some type of enlightenment that welcomes others to seek guidance. So if everyone showed up at work that way, we'd have a different commercial system. We'd have a different society. When we each cross the bridge, then together, we really are making a different type of awake. in society. I think the challenge people genuinely feel is we're so exhausted from our lives and our days. We always think, oh yeah, when I have more energy, I'll do that. When I have a bit of peace, I'll do that.

Starting point is 01:20:28 What do you think about that? I think that your spiritual life is the only path towards gaining energy and peace and direction. So even if I'm completely exhausted, every morning I force myself to walk out the door, go outside, and open into my morning meditation and prayer. Now, there are days where it is more profound than others, but if I miss a day, it becomes a very different type of day. If I miss practicing in the morning, the day unfolds very differently. I have to say, oops, at about noon, excuse me, step outside. And even though it's noon or one o'clock, do my morning prayers. Morning prayer for me is an opening to connect in dialogue with the universe.

Starting point is 01:21:09 If I miss it, then I'm working from a place of ego of what do I want for me, what I want for my family, go outside and start loving God, please open my heart and fill me with love that I might be present to you. You use your words. Today is a dialogue with the universe. Our new Mick Cafe crafted sodas just drinks or something more, like Spriteberry Bliss, creamy strawberry Coke and orange dream, all swirled with fizzy flavor and topped with silky cold foam. Only at McDonald's, at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series.

Starting point is 01:21:59 Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F-1, including the astrology of the current grid. Lewis Hamilton, Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. Wouldn't you know it, Michael Schumacher is also a Capricorn Sun, Cancer Moon. The story of the sports most consequential driver strike. We have one man who, upon hearing that he was going to be fired, freaked out, and apparently climbed out the window of the bathroom. And was Daniel Ricardo's illustrious F1 career, a success story, a cautionary tale, or some combination of both?

Starting point is 01:22:30 He started getting all this attention, and he maybe started to think, I'm bigger than this, I'm better, and plenty of other mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent, dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Iris Palmer and my new podcast is called Against All Odds and that's exactly what the show is about doing whatever it takes to be thoughts. Get ready to hear from some of your favorite entrepreneurs and entertainers as they share stories about defying expectations, overcoming barriers and breaking generational patterns. I'm talking to people like award-winning actress, producer, and director, Eva Longoria. I think I had like $200 in my savings account and my mom goes, what are you going to do?

Starting point is 01:23:18 And I was like, I'll figure it out. We got a one-bedroom apartment for like $400 a month and we all could not afford. Like, I was like, how am I going to make $100 a month? I'm opening up like I've never before. For those of you who think you know me from what you've seen on social media, get ready to see a whole new side of me. Listen to Against All Odds with Iris Palmer as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Starting point is 01:23:54 You've said that children are born as pure souls. Yes. Do you think everyone is born good? Everyone's born a knower. We know this through the lens of science. So we can look at twin studies and know that every single person is born with a natural capacity for spiritual awareness.

Starting point is 01:24:13 And every single person through MRI studies we know, through MRI studies, we know every single person is born with circuits in the brain for spiritual awareness. What does this look like in the child? Science shows us that unless socialized otherwise, a young child naturally perceives continuity of consciousness or spirit after death, unless told, oh, no, no, that's not real. A young child naturally perceives that we can directly know.

Starting point is 01:24:40 We don't need to have been told or read it or seen it. We can have direct access to consciousness. Science calls this implicit spiritual cognition. I say the child's born and knower. Now, what happens in school is that the child says, oh, I know the answer to that. And the teacher says, what do you mean? Point on the page.

Starting point is 01:24:59 Where does it say? Where did you read that? You need to cite and reference how you know that. And the child says, no, I just knew. That exchange says to the child that direct knowing is somehow less real, that the type of knowing that we raise as prim, to which we give primacy, the type of knowing that we value here in school is one that comes from someone else. But actually, the most important knowledge we have doesn't come from someone else.

Starting point is 01:25:26 It is an original authentic knowing within ourselves. That's how we know our own calling, our own purpose, our own direction. School has socialized us out of our natural spiritual awareness. School has foreclosed the direction and guidance that is built into life. The child comes in and knower. The child comes in listening and paying attention to their inner spiritual compass. And in school we learn, oh, no, no, that's not real. You need to have been told that by someone else.

Starting point is 01:25:56 What can parents do to protect that? It's essential that parents protect their child's natural spiritual awareness. Parents can say, hey, you said you just knew that. How wonderful. Was that direct knowing you just knew? Or a child might come to us as parents and say something like, you know, I felt grandma's presence. Even though she's dead, I really felt grandma's presence. And you can say, wow, grandma really loved you.

Starting point is 01:26:23 It makes sense that she'd be watching over you. We don't need to have all the grand answers as parents, but to protect the child's natural spirituality, we need to authorize them, our children, as knowers. Wow, you had a dream that daddy and I were going to travel around the world, and today we told you that. Wow, you had a hunch that your sister was going to come home from school early and then it happened. You had direct knowing, wow. and authorize your child's direct knowing because everyone else in society is telling them it isn't real. We have poisoned a generation with something that's called radical materialism. It says it's only real if you can touch it or kick it.

Starting point is 01:27:10 But actually, there's a great deal of information in the unseen, and the child has access to that information. By saying to the child, oh, no, that feeling you having your gut instinct, that's just your intuition, No, no. Wow, that's the gift of your intuition. What, you made that up, you imagined it? No, no, no. Imagination, like touching a hot stove, images, what's true. You figured that out in your important imagination. Authorize, authorize, authorize, authorize. What's that? I really like that. How important is spirituality at home from a scientific perspective?

Starting point is 01:27:50 are tremendously important. The child is born a naturally spiritual being, but this is one third of an endowment, two thirds cultivated by us as parents and grandparents. It can be by a devoted, loving mentor,

Starting point is 01:28:03 a member of a faith community. It could be by a coach or a counselor. But when we pair true, deep love, authentic love, with transparency, opening the window

Starting point is 01:28:15 and sharing our own spiritual life, the child is embraced. and their spiritual core is formed. As a parent, if I say, we can do four things as a parent to strengthen our children's spirituality. The first is, call it out, use a language that speaks to synchronicity,

Starting point is 01:28:35 mystical experiences, talk about the spiritual reality and give it a language through which the child gains a roadmap of a spiritual, sacred reality. If we say it's real, it's real. Two, invite your child into your own life, share the stories of when I was 16 and I really didn't know if God existed. I was really depressed. When you were born, I knew there was much more than just skin and bones to us. You know, speak authentically about your own journey from a spiritual perspective, the knowing, truthful knowing of your own heart. When you share your authentic spiritual story, the child knows that actually our life journey is a spiritual journey. The third thing we can do, very important, is to,

Starting point is 01:29:20 to invite our children to share their own spiritual experiences. Say that our relationship, our family, goes down to that bedrock. Spiritual life is part of who we are. Whether it's God brought us together, the universe from across the world brought you to me, my beautiful spiritual child, or when daddy and mommy got married and we both brought our kids, we knew that God had made this full abundant family. Talk about who we are as a family from the deepest spiritual perspective. And the fourth piece, all four are important.

Starting point is 01:29:53 The fourth is non-negotiable, which is invite your child into a practice of transcendence, whether it's prayer, you know, loving God, open my heart. Now you finish the prayer. Do you want to sit by my side and while we meditate through which you're invoking the sacred consciousness field like a little antenna, they're starting to pick it up? Share transcendent practice.

Starting point is 01:30:16 when we as parents share a transcendent practice, we allow our children the rest of their lives to get back to source. The brain is more of an antenna than a factory. We were born able to receive consciousness, much more like an antenna than a factory that makes thoughts or makes spirituality. The child's a little antenna. Teach them how to raise it. Teach them that what comes through their antenna is real

Starting point is 01:30:41 and show them that you can always raise the antenna and feel the presence of love, feel the presence of guidance. I think that's so different from what I feel, a lot of people who grew up in a spiritual or religious home experience, which was force, force of practice, force of belief, force of ritual without reason, force of turning up and showing up whether you cared or not. So now they don't like the whole thing.

Starting point is 01:31:08 They don't like any of it. Yeah, that rebounds. Yes. These are invitations. What's the difference between, spirituality and religion. Well, as you probably know, for about two-thirds of people in the

Starting point is 01:31:20 States, and it's pretty true across post-industrial countries, spirituality and religion go hand in hand for about two-thirds of people, and about one-third of people say, I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. Whether or not we're religious, we are all inborn spiritual beings.

Starting point is 01:31:36 Religion is, whether I'm Catholic or Hindu or Jewish, is a gift of our parents and grandparents. Religion, the sacred text, ceremony is environmentally transmitted. Spirituality is innate. Now, Jay, I think in support of the child's own natural spirituality, we can as parents take on a child-centered point of view. Listen to the child's spiritual experiences and say, wow, offer in the first person speaking for only myself a spiritual voice. So for instance, I used to take hikes with my children in the forest when they

Starting point is 01:32:12 were young. And when we came to a fork in the road, I always said Robert Frost poem, two roads diverge and a yellow wood, and sorry I could not follow both, and be one traveler long I stood. And of course, it's the road less traveled. It's about listening to your inner wisdom and making an authentic, original choice. Years went by. I love that poem. Dozens of times Robert Frost was shared in the woods at the juncture where the road forked. And sure enough, years later, my children walking through the woods will approach a fork in the road and say, this is the point where mommy recites Robert Frost and cries. They're aware there's a choice.

Starting point is 01:32:56 There's a choice in the road. Now, when I cry, I didn't cry because I thought it would be an effective way for them to remember the Robert Frostbone. It was a genuine, authentic sense that the most important thing in life is to learn to make your own choices. They got the picture. When we're transparent, when we share what's really important to us on our own spiritual path, they know it's real, they get the picture, and then on their own terms, they can claim it. Because you weren't doing it to teach. You were just sharing it.

Starting point is 01:33:25 Like, there's such a difference. It's almost like we remember things when someone shares them as their inspiration versus when they say, you need to do this. You need to know, like, I don't know if you turn around to your kids of that. Young age, it said, this is a lesson in how you like choices in the future. Yeah, it's like that doesn't work on anyone. Like if you share something you love, I'll remember that. And you would, for me too.

Starting point is 01:33:48 But if I said, Lisa, you have to live life like this. And this is where you've got to remember. All of a sudden, your defenses go up and you just switch off, especially as a kid. Jay, I was sharing the best thing I had, which was the joy of living an authentic original life. Yeah. And not borrowing my life from the playbook or someone else's life. Lisa, what does therapy do that? spirituality can't, and what does spirituality do that therapy can't? Yes. So, Jay, for 30 years,

Starting point is 01:34:17 I've been working at the intersection of spirituality and psychotherapy, and I've published over 200 articles on spirituality and mental health and recovery, many of which are in top peer-reviewed journals. Spirituality is essential to recovery from depression and addiction. Spirituality is protective against depression and addiction. There's nothing in the clinical or social sciences as important to whole person formation as a strong spiritual core. So in my view, psychotherapy minus a spiritual core makes no sense. A spiritually informed therapy is one in which the patient is authorized to open to the guidance in the universe, to raise their antenna and ask the question, what is life showing me now?

Starting point is 01:35:08 What is this suffering revealing to me now? Is there a blind spot where I'm being perhaps inconsiderate or selfish? Is there a blind spot where I have yet to take ownership or autonomy of my life? Is there a way in which I'm not listening to the universe? And the universe is pounding louder and louder to your point until I hear. That type of reflection is a reflection brought forth by suffering. but it is not purely a psychological question. It is one in which we were asking to see beyond what we know.

Starting point is 01:35:44 Awakened awareness has information that has yet to unfold before us. Achieving awareness draws on all the information in our own lives and everyone else is to date. It is inherently based on the past. But intuition, mystical experience, and awakened knowing has information that, has yet to unfold before us. The yellow doors. That's why spirituality is essential to mental health, because what is suffering but a banging at the door to emerge beyond the person we've ever been

Starting point is 01:36:20 before? Lisa, I can't wait for people to read the awakened brain and to connect more with your work, because sitting with you today and going through your exercises and hearing about your ability to pull from science and from spirituality, it's such important work. And it's, I'm so glad that you're such a good messenger of it because it feels like it's being hidden from us. It feels like it's not as accessible as it should be. And you're bringing it out.

Starting point is 01:36:49 So I'm so grateful for that. I'm so grateful for our conversation. And it's true. Every single person listening already is spiritual. This is theirs. It's not only for the most pious or the most, No one owns this. You are spiritual, but it is your opportunity to awaken. Yeah, we, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one

Starting point is 01:37:14 sentence maximum. And so Lisa Miller, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Listen to your inner wisdom and bet against the pack. Nice. I agree. Question number two, what is the worst advice? you've ever heard or received. Do as I say. Question number three, what's the first thing you do in the morning and the last thing you do at night? Every morning, I open the day through prayer that invites my heart to connect to God. And every day, I close the day by thanking God for the guidance, the love, and the miracle of the adventure that was the day before.

Starting point is 01:37:57 What do you pray to God for? I ask that I might align my heart with God's guidance and love, and that day serve God in love. I don't know what it'll look like, but I know if I'm in alignment. Fifth and final question, Lisa, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Every single person in your path was sent by source. Treat them with an awakened heart. Dr. Lisa Miller, the book is called The Awakened Brain.

Starting point is 01:38:29 the new signs of spirituality and our quest for an inspired life. Go and grab your copy right now. I hope you listen to this conversation many times. My favorite thing you could do is please take a moment to do the two practices we did together with yourself and then share it with a friend because I feel those simple practices that Lisa so beautifully guided me through could be the unlock that you're looking for.

Starting point is 01:38:54 I've always found that you need these tipping points in your journey and Lisa gave us so many beautiful ones, but those two exercises particularly, I think could be doorways and gateways into your spiritual life if you've been struggling, if you felt like you've fallen off, if you're reconnecting,

Starting point is 01:39:11 whichever part of the journey you're on. So thank you so much, Lisa. Thank you for your time, your energy, your present. It's wonderful to connect with you. You have a beautiful soul. Oh, thank you. Very bright soul.

Starting point is 01:39:19 Very kind, truly. Thank you so much. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Ayman on how to change your life by changing your brain. They don't do things

Starting point is 01:39:30 until someone's mad at them to get it done. They need stress in order to get stuff done. And that just makes everybody around them stress. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie.

Starting point is 01:39:45 You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable? Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prynne's music is therapy. A new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life. money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast.

Starting point is 01:40:01 It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prins, Music is Therapy, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

Starting point is 01:40:20 When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with it? you. I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new

Starting point is 01:40:36 podcast exploring NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different

Starting point is 01:40:52 take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip. A new podcast the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the astrology of the current grid, the story of the sports most consequential driver's strike, and plenty of other mishaped scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent, gumster fire

Starting point is 01:41:14 for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.

On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Dr. Lisa Miller: Feeling Lost, Stuck or Anxious? (Use THIS Spiritual Framework to Finally Move Forward With Clarity)

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