On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Drew Barrymore ON: Reframing Society's Expectations of Love & How to Know When to Let Go of an Unproductive Relationship

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon.Today, I am talking to Drew Barrymore. Drew is a talented actress, producer, and director, known for her roles in films such as "E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial", "Charlie's Angels", and "50 First Dates." She made her acting debut at the age of six in the film "Altered States" and rose to fame as a child star in the 1982 film "E.T." She has since established herself as a leading lady in Hollywood and has also produced and directed several films. In addition to her successful career in the entertainment industry, she is also an author and a businesswoman, with her own production company and a cosmetics line. Currently, she hosts the The Drew Barrymore Show, which debuted in 2020 and has been renewed for a fourth season this year.  Drew shares her thoughts on being more empathetic, which means putting ourselves in others' shoes and treating them with kindness and compassion, why learning self-forgiveness is crucial for personal growth and healing, liberating or freeing yourself from mental, physical, or emotional constraints and can be achieved through self-awareness, self-care, and self-love. Prioritizing ourselves means taking care of our physical and mental well-being, setting boundaries, and making time for our own needs and wants. It is important to remember that we cannot pour from an empty cup, and taking care of ourselves allows us to show up fully for others.    What We Discuss:00:00:00 Intro00:00:22 It was a new show and nobody wanted to talk00:03:55 Starting out as a child00:09:28 Being more kind and empathetic00:16:55 Forgiveness and the ultimate form of liberation00:23:50 Letting go of shame and guilt00:27:14 Don’t stay stuck, get on with it00:33:08 Having a sense of safety in your workplace 00:37:59 How do you receive genuine love?00:49:13 Invest in yourself00:53:46 Today, who do you want to be?00:57:43 Your gut is your body’s compassEpisode ResourcesDrew Barrymore | TwitterDrew Barrymore | InstagramDrew Barrymore | FacebookThe Drew Barrymore Show | YouTube | TikTokWant to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I am Yom Le Van Zant and I'll be your host for The R Spot. Each week listeners will call me live to discuss their relationship issues. Nothing will tear a relationship down faster than two people with no vision. There's y'all are just floppin' around like fish out of water. Mommy, daddy, your ex, I'll be talking about those things and so much more. Check out the R-Spawn on the iHeart video app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of

the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Join the journey soon. When my daughter ran off to hop trains,

I was terrified I'd never see her again, so I followed her into the train yard. This is what it sounds like inside the box car. And into the city of the rails, there I found a surprising world, so brutal and beautiful that it changed me, but the rails do that to everyone. There is another world out there.

And if you want to play with the devil, you're going to find them down in the rail yard. Undenail Morton. Come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to the city of the rails, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. I don't stay stock and I don't stay stock. Yeah, I can tell that in what you're saying and how you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. I don't stay stock and I don't stay stock. Yeah, I can tell that in what you're saying

and how you're saying it. I'm almost like, no, you gotta get over that really fast. Don't blame people for stuff. Don't stay stock, get on with it, get out of bed, put one foot in front of you, or start doing dishes. You'll start feeling better, I promise. Like cleaning is a very spiritual act

and put on a song and like all of a sudden you'll be shaking your butt. ["The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The The with your presence on our show. We were such a new show and nobody wanted to talk. It was the height of the pandemic. People really didn't know what to say. I get it, I didn't know what to say. I was like, I feel like ironically,

isn't the world telling us to be quiet and listen and I have to go find my voice right now? I know. It feels very counter to it. You're going to be a challenge voice right now. I know. Feels very counter to it. You're going to be a challenge. But you were kind enough. And I get it.

It's like, I think there was probably, like, what is this show? And why would we want to talk about stuff right now? But there was also such a need for community at that time. But I just thank you for coming on so early and daring to come on something that we ourselves were literally in establishment mode. We were trying to set it up for success

in the way that like we wanted it to be something we loved and believed in, but everything was gonna have to be done differently. Yeah, definitely. You know, in 2019 when we were making the show, it was not going to be that show, but what did we keep, what did we change, how do we pivot, how do we move forward? So thank you. Oh, no.

It makes a difference when people see you coming on the shows and they think, oh, that's safe. Maybe I'll try that. Well, no, I mean, no, thank you. No, I was actually so grateful that you thought of me and invited me and the team reached out to me. I was so looking forward to connecting with you. I think you just have such a positive presence

in everything you do and your energy radiates. When I met you backstage, I was telling my team because Paul was here with me last time when we came in person. Helena wasn't, and I was saying to them backstage, I was like, that interaction we had had the lights been on backstage. I would have shared it because it's such a special interaction like the energy you greeted me with and the warmth that you had for me. I was just like, wow, I feel like I'm meeting a long lost friend and it was just such a special

moment and no one got to see that. It was totally behind cameras, but I wanted people to know because that's who you are and that's how you appear to everyone and approach everyone, whether you're backstage or on camera or off camera, wherever you are. And so I saw that before and I'm so grateful I got to see him personally. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love is Out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book.

For you to listen to this book, I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eight rules of love.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour. Love rules. Go to jsheditour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. I think it's also good to be wary of people who are different in different places and rooms.

That was always something like growing up in the job that I did. There was a lot of performative people who were different in different rooms. And then there were people who were attitudeally different in different rooms. And it was like a very interesting juggling act to see like, why is this person different now, here as opposed to in the other room with a, oh, they were performing, they were doing a job. That's why they're different.

Why is this person a little different here? Are there, oh, it's because of the person. Oh, that's interesting. So they don't treat everybody the same. Hmm, noted. Where are you on? Where are you relaxed? Where are you utterly yourself?

Where, so human behavior was always so fascinating for me because I was trying to gauge like what kind of human do I want to be. So I was always looking at everybody's, you know, actions to sort of put on the sifter of like, what do I want to keep and what do I want to just go away and fall to the bottom? How early do you think you started to do that? Because I think that that's a skill that we develop over time. And I like what you said that it's not as simplistic as saying, oh, well, that's a bad person. It's like, no, that's their job.

They're performing, they're working. And then sometimes it's the person. Sometimes it's the profession. But how early did you start noticing and observing? Very early. My mom also was like, I started working 11 months old, but I remember my mom was part of this. Is it even months?

Oh, yeah. In a diaper, not a euphemism. And literally I started my job in a diaper. It was a commercial. And people thought that like ET was maybe my first job, but it wasn't by a long shot. I had done a lot of TV films, a lot of commercials, and even a feature film.

So I felt comfortable at that point when I went into ET. So I feel lucky that I was blessed that I wasn't like a quivering lamb in the field. Like I was always very emboldened as a kid. I had so much like moxie. I feel like I'm probably a lot more shy, respectful, and cautious now. As an adult, when I was a kid, I was so fearless. But I remember my mom was a part of like this theater group at the Lee Strasberg Institute, who's a very famous acting teacher. He taught Paul Newman and Marilyn Monroe and Al Pacino.

They were all a part of his, I wouldn't even know how to put it, but group. And she was doing a play there, and I remember this one woman who would go in the back every night before her play, and she would just lay on the stage in a quiet room and beat her chest and cry out so primal. And that was such an interesting thing to witness as a kid.

I was like, oh, that's how she does it. Like that's how she gets herself to be emotional and cry. So I was always clocking like whether it was how to do this job, or really I was hyper-aware ever since I can remember about how people treated each other. A lot of cliches is like, oh, I'll have someone's like rude to a waiter. That was me as an infant, I was so upset and put off by people who weren't nice to everyone.

And there were plenty of people in the job that I was in that were a little coddled and, you know, but then I also saw people who you thought wouldn't be shy because they were a performer, but they were. So I was like, well, don't hold that against them. That's just their real personality. like, well, don't hold that against them. That's just their real personality. Like, I'm thinking I'm gonna get this big, flamboyant, gregarious, you know, loud person and they're not on right now. They're turned off.

And who they are is actually this very gentle quiet soul. Oh, you're the world's greatest comedian, but you're kind of dark and moody. Okay, that wasn't what I was expecting, nor is it what I want, but I have to accept that's who you are. Okay, interesting. So you're observing everybody

so you can make fun of it all, but if you let people in, you won't be able to, you keep a guard up on purpose understood. So I was just always trying to figure out like why people did what they did, but I still to this day, like cruelty, arrogance, rudeness, short temperedness, is just, I don't have time for it. And even worse, if I am a regularity of those things, oh my God, I take myself to task probably worse than I would anyone else.

Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? You've reminded me of when I was in the monastery, there was one monk who was known for being pretty negative and being that way. So he had this reputation where he would always be negative, he'd be rude to people, he'd be, you know, he had what you're kind of describing'd be, you know, he had, what you're kind of describing, like,

there was a bit of arrogance, there was a bit of bravada, there was a bit of rudeness, lack of sensitivity, everything that you're mentioning. And it's really interesting because I used to really annoy me because I kind of have a similar trait to you where I don't appreciate someone treating anyone special or not special or good or bad. And I think it's a hard thing to manage

when you're a busy individual. So I'm getting, guessing in your sense, it's very difficult. So I would often complain about him because he was always criticizing, complaining and comparing. And so I would often complain about him to the other monks. I'm like, this guy, like, you know, he's just always doing this. What's this monk's deal? Literally, can you imagine like that's literally my question?

And it was really interesting because there were two sizes and I want to hear your thoughts to this. One thing one of the monks said to me, he looked to me and he said, what don't you like about this individual? And I said, he's always comparing complaining and criticizing. And he said to me, what are you doing right now? I said, I'm comparing complaining. And it was like this, like moment of like, I had become who I was,

mad at the way, how did you stop yourself is my question because you're very mindful. You've always, I've seen you, the few moments I've spent with you or whether we've messaged, it's always been wonderful. How did you stop yourself from letting that pain get so make you cold or make you harsh to that person also? I think it made me more kind and empathetic. And, and you know, I also grew up in a job

that's like heavy on gossip or can be and rumor and hearsay and stuff. And I found that in my life, everybody loves an interesting story. I mean, we're all of our ears perk up when we're like, think we're gonna hear something, a little, you know, salacious, a little crazy, a little something, it's something to kind of marvel at. But I realized that I am not a gossiper, you know? Like I'm more, I'll keep your secrets.

And it was sort of the same thing. I've grew up around a lot of people who also kind of talk trash about people. And I was like, I do not want to be around that nor be that person. So it also made me like gravitate towards people who didn't do that. And it's funny. You said, because you know, we get busy and we have a lot of responsibilities. So I can get sort of intense or it's seemingly short tempered because I'm tired and I'm trying to kind of feral through things like you do? Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Okay, that is so refreshing to hear. I was like, I asked my wife. Because I was gonna have.

I'm a wife on the show. Yeah, I know, I love your wife so much. Yeah, I know, yeah. When you two were put on this planet, like you are Freud's Amago theory, like two people who look alike are drawn to each other and a mirror like sort of look in the water, you know, and see your own reflection and not based in narcissism.

It's based in like a familiarity. No, it really, it's a beautiful theory. And so in those moments, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. I seem a little hurt, a little short tempered, a little intense. I would say 99.9% of the time, I never think I'm right for being that way. And I will find myself maybe justifying here and even as I'm doing it, I'm like, you are so full of crap right now. I really hold myself so critically accountable for wanting to go, okay, well, then you can't

take this water back and put it in the bottle. It's spilled all over the floor. So how about next time try to remember something about this that can be like a trigger so that you can handle it differently. I think so much of my adult life is becoming about the mastery of reaction, knowing I'm the only thing I can control. I cannot control. And I work really deeply with this therapist who I just I respect. He's honestly one of the smartest individuals I've ever met.

Like I'm talking like one hand, like a true voice. And he quit me at one point. Like that's how, you know, high road this human being is. He doesn't deal in toxicity. If you're not getting better, he's not feeding off of that. And thinking, well, this person's going to stay with me for many years. He's like, we, our work cannot actually occur here. So I'm going to step away. And I was like, God, you're good. I love you even more. I respect you so much. And I fought to break a cycle and a pattern that he just after eight years was like, I can't do this anymore. And it was drinking. And when I was about two years,

and I'm not sober, I don't work a program, I have alcohol in my house, like I party with my friends, you know, so I'm not, when I say I don't drink alcohol, it's just like a one-lane choice of realizing something that didn't work for me. I thought I would master my whole life. I don't.

I can't. So, after I had stopped for about two years, because drinking was like a symptom of many problems, but it was the thing that was not allowing me to get to those next places, I asked him, will you please reconsider taking me back? I've put in two years. I'm not stopping, I'm feeling really good. This isn't for anyone else, it's not for you,

it's for me, I know that's what you've always wanted it. If you do things for other people, it's so dangerous, they can just take it away, it's a burden, it's, you know, there's no ownership in doing things for other people when it comes to that really crucial work because I love doing things for other people. It's just a matter of, and I think I'm a total codependent, like with my kids, like, yeah, they're my whole source of life, joy, happiness, and motivation.

So be it. I'm a codependent who cares. But I'm also my own individual, they're their own individuals. And we've got to take care of our side of the street. So I asked could we go back to working together and we did and now we're doing the best work we've done in 10 years. And a lot of the work I do with Barry now, so much of this word comes up, which is inner. And that's not something, even though I think I was really in touch with spirituality when I was a teenager. It was so much a part of like my salvation and raising myself and getting emancipated

at 14 and living on my own and being an adult my whole life and not having any semblance of like what society says kids are supposed to do with like go to bed on time go to school like eat a balance meal all that stuff like I just didn't have that in my universe. But I love when Barry uses the word inner. This rich inner life I'm trying to build, that is the place in which I can tap into reaction, processing, control, all of those things. It's like there's really kind of only one place that that truly can take place and it's the inner world. And I have spent my life being an extrovert

and going outwards and that can be being a love junkie or being someone who loves to be playful and call it perform or just put myself out there or affection or jokes and humor or my love of human beings. Like, it's all out, out, out. And this is the first time that I feel like I'm really much more excited and ready to do this inner work. And it's cool because it is the place where you can do so much more because a lot of those things you want to do with the outside world are not really possible or not really attain a ball like control. Like, you know, changing the way things are

or someone out there or a situation or the world at large. These things are not controllable, but inside your world, inside your inner self, there's much to be done. You've got new year's goals and HelloFresh is here to help you achieve them. Skip the grocery store and take control of your time and budget with delicious restaurant quality recipes delivered right to your door. If you're looking for an easy way to eat well and save money this year, HelloFresh is a great place to get started. It's cheaper than grocery shopping and

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without worrying about it falling apart or being hard to pack in a hurry. Plus I love the removable laundry bag where I can separate my used clothes from the clean ones. Start your 100-day trial and shop the entire away line-up of travel essentials, including their best-selling suitcases and bags at awaytravel.com forward slash J. That's awaytravel.com forward slash J. Yeah. But it sounds like with this overanalyzing reflective

self-mastery work that you're doing, it sounds like at the same time as that, there's also a sense of self-forgiveness to be able to move on, especially from knowing that as a child, A, you wouldn't have known about the inner in that depth, you wouldn't have had the tools. You were exposed to things as a child that 99% of children wouldn't be exposed to. So that also seems to be a sense of forgiveness for today and also forgiveness for that time.

Is that, how would you see that? You know, it's funny because I do think a lot of kids go through just crazy stuff. You know, when I was in an institution for two years that my mom put me in, it was an adult word too, but it was also a kid word. So all these other kids, I was in with, I was like, well, they're going through it too. Whatever their roads, took them to self-destruction or abuse of a substance or hurting themselves or being out of control to the point where their parents didn't know what to do

with them. A lot of that is usually cries for help and probably not their fault always. Yes, of course. But I was like, well, I guess I'm not alone in, you know, trying to, you know, I'm not the only one who are experiencing what we see as extraordinary circumstances, especially at a young age. They're heightened and they seem wilder to adults. Oh, you're 14 or 13 and you're doing these things. Like, oh, if you were in your 20s, I guess that'd be more normal. Well, that's such a good point. Yeah, I've never thought about it like that. And then I think about kids who are, you know,

challenged economically or trying to get, you know, in somewhere or they have to take care of their families or their latchkey kids or they're trying to get into this country or they're, you know, doing things that like again, once again, we're saying, oh, this is not what children are supposed to do. So I'm like convinced that I'm one of many

that just kind of had stuff to deal with that we wish ideally kids didn't have to deal with but a lot of them are. Yes. I just was never taught like what forgiveness was of myself, but I've learned along the way far ahead of self forgiveness because this is a very new concept for me. So it's super fresh. It's like an open wound and it is not so-to-up shut yet by any means. I need stitches and some isopropyl. Like I'm working on it, but it always was forgiving of other people.

I didn't, I grew up in a very unjudgmental landscape, for better or worse, Hollywood is real open-minded. It's real liberal, and I don't mean politically, I just mean like artistic people are kind of like a live and let live group, which is super cool, and that was great growing up. I was like, oh, so we can just kind of let people be, oh, okay, like cool. They're not wrong for being that way. They're just eccentric or that's their lifestyle choice or that's their orientation or whatever. It was great

to grow up that way. I was always forgiving of other people and like open-minded for like whoever they are. I realized later in life that it turns out that I thought forgiveness was a gift to someone else. You forgiving them was giving them a gift. I suppose it is, I never knew that there is an irony of all ironies of that you are finally liberated. And you can't forgive to get to liberation, because it's fake and you don't get the reward. You have to truly literally go, with every part of me, authentically and without wanting

anything in return, I'm not even thinking about myself. I just forgive. I forgive you. I forgive this. Then all of a sudden you're like, oh no, and now I feel really good. How weird. But if I've ever tried to forgive something to feel better, it doesn't work. It's not a technique. It's not a button. Yeah. No, it's not a technique. It's this true. I also found the ultimate form of liberation is change. When you like stopping drinking from me, and again, not sober, like don't, that's not it. I just don't drink.

The only thing that's, you would, that's my lifestyle choice. I was so held back by this one thing my entire life that I swore I would master, that why wouldn't I be convinced of that I'm not capable of change because I couldn't change it? So I'm just a failure in my inner voice and narrative. My only evidence in front of me is you're not capable of change

because you haven't changed this thing. And then once I did, it was like, finally, I believe that I'm capable of change. And that's, you know, these things are symptoms. They're not the only problem. You can't like stop something that isn't working for you and everything else falls into place. There's a lot of work around it that has to be done. And Barry's point wasn't like,

if you stopped drinking all your problems are gonna go away. He's like, we just can't get to the work because this shame and guilt and like pattern is just, is gonna prevent us from getting to the next level. So I'm out and I was just like, God, I love this so much and I knew he was right. Yeah, your therapist quitting on you is pretty, that's pretty inspiring for you.

I know. Because most therapists are like, oh, you're still broken, fantastic. I'll see you next week. I'm, I still have a job. And so I think if you're seeking guidance, wisdom, therapy, spiritual leadership, whatever you are seeking out in this world, if you sense that person continues to feed and not help you grow and is fine with you staying in the same place, I don't think that's a good sign. I'm Dr. Romani and I am back with season two of my podcast Navigating Narcissism.

Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved bomb by the Tinder Swindler. The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help. As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself,

I know how to identify the narcissists in your life. Each week, you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The therapy for Black Girls Podcast is the destination for all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

of ourselves. Here, we have the conversations that help Black women dig a little deeper into the most impactful relationships in our lives, those with our parents, our partners, our children, our friends, and most importantly, ourselves. We chat about things like what to do with a friendship ends, how to know when it's time to break up with your therapist, and how to end the cycle of perfectionism. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. And I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.

Listen to the therapy for Black Girls Podcasts on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Take good care. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh well, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao, the tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen, or tasted.

I've never wanted us to have a gun bite. I mean, you saw this tax of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the stacks of cash in her office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate. We're all lost. It was madness. It was a game changer. People quit their jobs.

They left their lives behind, so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building armed with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all this for a damn bar of chocolate.

Listen to obsessions while chocolate on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Yeah, but I love that emphasis you're placing that it wasn't ever about the external change. It wasn't just about, oh, if you stop drinking alcohol, then all your problems are solved. It was going on this inner journey for you. And I wonder when you're doing this, you brought up two really important things. You brought up shaman guilt. And I think shaman guilt deep down, whether you meet someone who seems confident

or whether you meet someone who's insecure, shaman guilt are right there, right? Even when someone feels confident or is acting confident, often there's a shaman guilt of some part of them they're trying to hide. And if someone's feeling insecure, it's because they shame and guilt themselves.

Walk us through a bit about how those two were these bad friends of yours for a while, and then you were eventually able to let them go. I'm just letting them go, especially with stuff with my mom. You know, I just, I think most people idealize this sort of nuclear family. And I just have felt pain and guilt and shame my whole life that that wasn't our story. Our life experience. It hurts me to know that like, there is pain there. For her, for me, it just destroys So I'm I'm working on that because I'm like I'm 47. I can't I don't mean to be morbid

But I don't want to die carrying this with me like I I will shift this. It's time. It's been long enough Yeah, I put enough time in so I'm working on that with Barry right now and I'm making some really good strides And it's really hard, you know. I think these things are not easy. I felt a lot of guilt and shame around drinking because like a lot of my sort of least desirable experiences had probably something to do with me being drunk, you know. So I'm like, amazing that you would keep doing something that like doesn't serve you. I felt pain and guilt and shame every time I did feel like I acted in a way that wasn't as

gracious and patient as I wish I could always be. These are really go-to overly available really go to overly available emotions that I am just like I can't be nearing 50 and still function like this. So like, you know, it's like kicking out bad roommates. You're just like, guess what? You are a sloppy, horrible person. You have bad energy or negative. You're messy. And like, I can't

live with you anymore. Like, I want to get my own place and keep it tidy. And Jesus, like how have I managed to put up with this for so long? It's like, that's how I feel inside my body. And shaman guilt or roommates, I've had my whole life that I totally resent. And like, wish I could just give an eviction notice too. And I'm starting to grow a pair and actually really take charge because I think I know like I'm running out of time. We don't live forever and nobody wants to think about death or dying, but it's an inevitability that we all share in common

and we really don't even know actually when it's coming. So there's a part of me that's just like, I can't do this anymore. I'm fatigued, I'm exhausted. I'm desperate to know with the other side of this feels like, you know, we used to love 45 records and always the popular hit song was on the A side. And then we would play the B side and be like, hit song was on the A side.

And then we would play the B side and be like, this song's actually awesome. I'm like, what is the B side of my life? What is the life that isn't so corroded with self-loathing, guilt, shame, beating up on myself all the time? People are like, you seem so positive. I'm like, you have no idea what I'm dealing with

on the inside. It's so hard and heavy some days. But one thing that's, I do, I am glad, is I don't stay stuck and I don't stay stuck. Yeah, I can tell that. I can hear that in what you're saying and how you're saying it. I'm almost like, no, you gotta get over that really fast. Don't blame people for stuff.

Don't stay stock, get on with it, get out of bed, put one foot in front of you, start doing dishes. You'll start feeling better, I promise. Like cleaning is a very spiritual act and put on a song and like all of a sudden you'll be shaking your butt like moving your body and like jumping the rain. Yeah, endorphins will start to come.

So I've had these fantasies of being Greta Garbo in my bed and my friends tending to my bedside or talking on the side on the phone, like, ooh, we're really worried about her. You know, it just doesn't happen because it's just like I just am like, oh God, like, except for funny enough with my drinking, my friends did do that.

They were like, we gotta get in there and be honest with her. And that's true friends. Friends who kick your butt and hold up mirrors to you or tell you when they don't like what they see or want you to see your reflection and feel good about it. That's true friendship. I'm all in for tough love. So I've been, you know, when I was in the institution, when I was 13, they assigned me a therapist, Dr. George Blair, I'll never forget. And they had these groups a couple nights a week where they would invite all the families in

and they would put someone in the circle and they would talk to their family very openly about what led to this crazy place we were all in. And it wasn't like a rehabilitation center. It was a full blown institution. It was very hardcore. It was much more one floor of the Cooke who's nest. It wasn't like promises and malibu.

This was like real deal North Valley like two years of you're locked in there. This is not a place you're allowed to leave. If you try to leave, they will deal with you accordingly and it's not pretty. So, but what what they would do is they would have these families sit around in a circle and they would encourage. There was no force, but it was sort of, you know, it was mandatory. They would sit that person down and they would sit them across from their family and then all the families would sit around and they would talk honestly

about what led to them being here, what was missing, what wasn't working with their family. There was sort of like, you know, non-aggressive confrontation about like, you know, the parents were just as accountable as the kids. It was incredible. And it shaped my life forever. It wasn't like, you know, we're all performers

and we put it all out there. Like that wasn't what did it. I am witnessing when you don't sweep things under the carpet, when you do not let them rot and start to stink. When you are willing to be brave and put it out there and discuss it out in the open, it wasn't even in front of others. It was just to find your voice and talk directly to that person. I forever formed me. It's like that was such an important life journey that would color my path for the rest of my life. And weirdly when I found out this show might actually happen in 2019, I was like not only of someone who's been sitting on

the other side of an interview chair my whole life and you kind of get fatigue on those same questions like I was like what if this could weirdly be a little like that group night that we would have a couple times a week where we just sit in some chairs in a group of people and talk. And we keep it real. And a lot of it was really funny. People laughed. It was heart-wrenching. It was emotional. It was humorous. It was insightful. It was raw.

And I think I'm really having an aha moment or an epiphany right now, because I'm like, am I running this show the way we did in those rooms? Like, it just was really cool to find out that talking it out and being brave to tell your truths was a good thing. Those sound like some of the most special skills and tools that every one of us could use so early on.

And the fact that you feel you're still using them after all this time. It's pretty remarkable. I have not associated the two until this moment. But I wasn't necessarily getting it from my job growing up. That wasn't as much as it was a like have all your emotions available. It was very structured in the work. And it was very spontaneous and creative and free, but it was for a purpose. And if anything, you were kind of pretending to be a different person. And it was very spontaneous and creative and free, but it was for a purpose. And if anything, you were kind of pretending to be a different person, but pulling on your real emotions. I had never experienced up until that point anything like it. And I've definitely conducted myself my whole life since I got out of there.

As if I still go to those group nights. Like, I want to put it out there. I wanna encourage other people to not sit on things, but discuss it, be bold, and not afraid of what other people are thinking and feeling when they're digesting your sort of deepest stuff, letting out secrets can be really liberating. And I still feel like I have plenty and I'm just now like willing to even look at some like secrets and being afraid of what people are going to think is not good. It's not good at all.

What do you think was, what made it safe? Because I feel like that's what it is. We think that environments need to be loving, or they need to be caring, but really it's a sense of safety that we're looking for. What made it feel safe? The truth. The truth and the honesty and the lack of judgment. That's what made it safe.

That people weren't going to, the nobody alienated each other. No one treated each other less than, we went on business as usual. We felt like we knew each other better. We were in an environment where people literally, like, kind of, if you wanted to talk about it, you could if you didn't, you didn't have to, but like, nobody made each other feel bad.

So I think truth and not feeling judged or is what leads to safety. One of the things that Barry talked to me about and I'll apply it to this also is if you're not feeling safe, how can you make yourself feel safe? If you're not getting that from others, how do you make it okay for you? And I went on a date with this guy. I thought it was the best date. I mean, it really was. It was like so good.

And we made a plan for that weekend and we were texting back and forth and it was so cute. And I was like, and I really liked him. I was like, what a nice guy. I was attracted to him. I loved his job because he was, you know, in the news business and like, I love news. And I'm like, oh my God, this is so cool.

I never heard from him again. Like, I guess that's what you call getting ghosted. I was like, whoa, that is so, oh wow, that's so weird. Okay. And I was talking to Barry, and there's the sex in the city where this boyfriend of hers named Jack Berger breaks up with her on a post-it note.

And it became this pop culture phenomenon. And the post-it note reads, I'm sorry, I can't don't hate me. Now, we all took, don't hate me. Now, we all took that and ran with it. The line was, this cannot be the day I get broken up with on a Post-it, so they have this whole crazy adventure. But all of like pop culture and society was like, this is the worst thing ever. I'm like, Barry, that is the most giving thing that I could ever ask for in

modern society, being a single girl. I swear to God, that's, I'm sorry. Okay, great. I can't. Thank you. Now I know where you're at. I know to move on. This is so informative that I appreciate the gracefulness and the graciousness of you like just telling me there's no there there. And don't hate me. Okay, I got it. You're being self-effacing. You know this is maybe not kosher, but that's okay because it's your truth. You cannot be, we can't be mad at people

because they're not what we want them to be. And I was like, I just wish I could get that Jack Berger posted no fairy. And he goes, well, you can write it to yourself. Yes. And I literally was like, Barry, you just took out all the frustration, anxiety, uncertainty, unfinished business, lack of control, helplessness, I feel. I feel good. I feel empowered. I feel like when I got on a bullhorn and share this wisdom. Maybe this is a start. It's like, oh my God, it was the biggest gift I could have gotten. So I think we can apply that to a lot of things. It's like, I'm not feeling safe right now because I just told my truth.

Okay, then maybe you can tell yourself why it was a good thing, why you are safe, that there will not be consequences that are unsurvivable that come out of this scenario and help yourself off the ledge by giving and fulfilling for yourself what we normally just tend to automatically look outward and to others for. I think what you just said right now is not only great for someone who's receiving that type of note, but it's also important for someone who often postpones that note.

So we know so many people that are in a relationship that don't want to be in it, but they don't want to be seen as the bad person. So they'll let it stay on for another six months, another 12 months, another 18 months. And those people are in a prison. Correct. They're in a horrible jail that they have put themselves in. I'm not dealing with that. I have a question for you. How do you tell people to receive love? I think I'm really good at giving it. I'm great good at giving it, I'm great at giving it to my daughters and to my friends, but I've noticed how much of my history with the romantic space, I am so stuck and I'm the person who doesn't want to be stock.

And I don't care necessarily what others do or what happens. I want to know what work I could do to take my walls down, believe and trust, because I am really trying to figure that out right now. I've sort of told myself, I'm okay, I'm fine. I'm lucky I have two kids. So if it comes to, and I have these amazing friends, and I have these beautiful coworkers, my cop really run it over to the point where like,

I don't feel like I need love, I'm abundant. I swear to God, I'm still scared or nervous or I don't have any information that shows me that that's a safe space. base. So how do I do that? Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences, incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life.

Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about, from the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg, now streaming on the iHot Radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman. I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on iHart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences

by tackling unusual questions so we can better understand our lives and our realities. Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or, can we create new senses for humans? Or what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain steers your behavior, your perception, and your reality. Listen to Intercosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet, Oprah. Everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter.

It's the figuring out that matters. Kevin Haw. It's not about us as a generation at this point. It's about us trying our best to create change. Luminous Hamilton. That's for me being taken that moment for yourself each day, being kind to yourself, because I think for a long time I wasn't kind to myself. And many, many more. If you're attached to knowing, you don't have a capacity to learn.

On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. I want to get some kisses. No pressure. For my first answer is going to be, I have two things. One thing was, what would Barry say? Seems like he's on a real right now? We should go to Barry.

Barry can we call you in and like, die you in right now? I want to meet you, but no, genuinely, like what would he say? I think obviously I'm sure he's shared some beautiful wisdom and insight with you. A few things come to mind. The first thing is I think that we've placed romantic love.

And I'm probably, people may not agree with this, but I just want everyone to sit with this for a second. And I really do believe that this is something you will appreciate, you'll be able to receive. I really do believe that. And if anyone else doesn't please sleep on it, please think about it. I really do believe that we have placed romantic love on the pedestal romantic love on the pedestal and the number one position podium of love. And so since we were born and raised, we've been told that finding the one is the ultimate expression and experience of love. And what's really fascinating is that if you look at any of the wisdom traditions, they don't feel that way.

All the wisdom traditions would suggest that the love that you have for your coworkers, your friends, your family, their strangers on the street, the person driving the car, the person that you just bumped into at the grocery store at the coffee shop, like the love that you can embody and experience and share with that person and receive from that person. That love that you can share with anyone and everyone you meet, that is actually the ultimate expression of love. And so what you just said, that you're greater giving love to everyone, you have this beautiful full cup around you, but it's the wiring that's been put into our minds that without this, we are incomplete, unfulfilled and undeserving.

And so I'm not saying that as a way of saying to people, you don't need to find someone to love. I'm just saying that don't ever let that be it. There's so much more to what love truly is. And so we've got to change our order of what's love. You know, you look at the wisdom traditions and they'll say, the closest thing to unconditional love is a mother's love for her child.

Like that is like the closest thing to real unconditional love. Like it's not talking about a love between two people who romantically got involved. Like that's beautiful. I'm not saying it's not beautiful. I'm just saying it's not talking about love between two people who romantically got involved. That's beautiful. I'm not saying it's not beautiful. I'm just saying it's not it. I think it's, okay, first of all, your answer is exactly what I was meant to hear.

Because I do feel that pressure. Like it's funny how I've been single for almost seven years. And it's been some of the happiest years of my life. I feel so fulfilled that I'm almost, like, my walls are about fear of someone coming in and like tearing up the joint, you know? Like, I don't know if I'm ready for someone to rock the boat of the goodness of the balance of the life

I've ended up creating with my daughters, my friends, my co-workers. When it didn't work out with their dad, that was a thing that took me many years to recover from because I so wanted the nuclear family. It turns out we are literally having the next best thing or maybe even the plan that was in place all along that we have were so close. I love his wife so much. My children and I literally are stepmother Ali. I call her our stepmother. You know, like she is the greatest. His mom and dad are Grammy and Poppy. I'm so close to them. His sister is one of my best friends. My children's aunt and the mother of our three silly cousins.

Like, I never dreamt I'd have this big and beautiful of family. There's just not a legal marriage there, but there's every single thing else there. And since that stopped, I've just been okay. And I think it is a lot of societal pressure. And the reason I got so emotional asking you was because you're a monk and probably had set yourself up for the idea that you might not experience that. And I have probably given myself now

and you have a beautiful marriage. I have probably told myself a narrative of you will not have that kind of love, but it doesn't mean that I feel any less fulfilled, but I'm in a mindset of, oh, that particular type of love is not available to you. So I asked you of all people because you probably had that narrative in your head yourself at

some point. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's... And I couldn't agree more with you. Like, that needs to be on billboards and like really a much more common confident understanding of love is love which is the best kind or the most important kind or the one you think you're supposed to have that is not the point and boy I knew I should ask you and I just got the most satisfactory answer.

I've probably never verbalized that answer to anyone else either in this sort of forum because I genuinely believed when you asked me that question, that, you know, obviously knowing that all types of love are available to everyone is an important thing. That's a separate thing to focus on. But I think the hierarchy that we've placed on love is what's distorting our vision of the community. And it follows you forever. Forever. I didn't have a relationship with my dad. He left before I was born. That I accepted that. You know, but like another woman will be like, I'm 45 and not married or this or that. And it's like, the society allows that to really haunt you in a different way. Then, well, when it comes to love and a man, my father and I didn't have that.

But we move forward or maybe it holds us back spiritually or emotionally, but not societally. Yeah. You're right. We have put that romantic love on a pedestal that seems to like if you don't have that kind of love, it diminishes the other kinds of loves which can be not only as equally fulfilling and satisfying gosh, that I really is.

Well, that's society's problem, not our problem. Yeah, I know people who love their work but feel incomplete without that. I know people who love their work but feel incomplete without that. I know people who love their children but feeling complete without that. I know people who have the love of their entire tribe and community but feeling complete without that. Because of the way it's been portrayed.

And I think that when you also put something on a pedestal like that, your expectations of that also go up. And that's no reason why that one causes us the most pain, because we also have more expectations of that partner than we do of our kids, of our parents, of our friends, of our family, because of that pedestal too.

I can't agree more. Also, I think it's bananas, the way that people are so affected by the person they're in a romantic relationship with. I always compare it to, well, you wouldn't be it so upset if your friend did that. Like you just be direct and you figure it out, you fix it and you wouldn't take it so personally

and flip out and have built up all these resentments. Like friends have a delicate relationship in a garden you still have to tend to, but the reactions are way less heated. Why is it that the minute sexual stuff is involved, we literally like flip out. What is going on? That's it. That I've always been aware of. I'm like I really just wish I could have a relationship like I do with my friends because they're not so flipped out all the time. Yeah, definitely. Like we just deal.

Like we just do. Yeah. I'm so glad you asked for that. And thank you for opening up so much. But I was wondering that. Well, because I knew that you had probably also believed that this was not going to be available to you in life. And that is the place I've been in for the last seven years.

But mine was elective and yours was elected. Yes, absolutely. So I was like, who better to ask this question to? Yeah. Then someone who had purposefully shut themselves off to this in service of, you know, for you, it was your spirituality, your religion. For me, it was for my kids. Yes. But again, I'm not go dependent on them. Like, I'm so aware of like how much that would screw everything up, them, me, all of that. But they do inspire me to be my best self.

No one's come along. No romantic partner. No one ever. My friends are the closest second. But they are the people that have come into my life that have truly encouraged, forced, and inspired the greatest change I've done in my life. Yes, and I think when it's elective

and it's not suppressed or repressed or it's not done, demanded. Demanded. When it's done in that way, it can be really, really powerful because you get, it's almost like if everyone had a period of their life, I mean, I often ask this question to people that I work with or clients that I coach and it's that, I mean, I started dating

when I was 14 probably, like dating. I don't know how old you were when you started dating. My first boyfriend was when I was like in the third or fourth grade. Wow. And he was my first kid. No one would have dated like in the third or fourth grade. Wow. And he was my first kid. No one would have dated me in the third or fourth grade. But that was it.

Like it ended there. It was it. It was very puppy love. It was very sweet. And it was very innocent. Yeah. So I probably had my proper first girlfriend I was 14. And I often ask people like between your first girlfriend to where you are now,

your first boyfriend or whatever, maybe till now, like how many days have you spent single? And for most people, that answer isn't very long. Like I know people who could say three weeks, maybe six months, maybe nine months, like when you look at our life and you start realizing that we haven't really spent much time having the opportunity to seek

and experience all the other types of love because we've been chasing this one type of love to fulfill our needs. But I'm so grateful you asked me that question genuinely. Well, and I really am like, I'm like, I haven't prioritized myself. What if I actually made myself my partner? Absolutely. Like, what if I invested in myself, what I've invested in so many other people? Yes.

In the form of these big, beautiful, chapter, adventurous, great, romantic adventures that I've had, one of which led to the greatest meaning of my life, my kids. And I even feel weird saying, my, because they're their own people, but our kids. And I even feel weird saying my because they're their own people, but our kids. And it's been really great to prioritize myself and say, you know what, you have a lot of work to do. You got to figure out how to be a parent. You've got to figure out how to raise your like inner child that like, you child that did a lot of work back then, but there's some adult perspective you didn't have, so there's new work that needs to be done. You need to work on, maybe you've done the same thing over and over in your life,

like, occupationally speaking. is there other stuff out there? Or are you happy just doing things over and over again the same way? Maybe you are, but like, give yourself the chance to explore that. And I've had such big life changes, and I've been there to support myself rather than again outward towards somebody else. I'm really a caretaker, and we all imprint so much of what we're dealing with becomes a very 50-50 thing in a relationship, which is a beautiful gift, but you are taking in a lot of someone else's perspective and needs and stuff. And this has been such a great time for me.

time for me and something I said to my fellow coworker here, Jen, earlier today, we were something about some great guy came up and she was like, where are all those great guys? And she's such a marvelous woman and she's so rad and so awesome. And I'm like, you know what, Striker? Not only are you obviously going to find someone or some people, maybe it's one, maybe it's chapters. I said, but you know what? I'm going to be so mad at you and you're going to be so mad at yourself if you waste this time because it's coming, he's coming. And you're not gonna get this time back. So I always notice too when I ask people in the audience, how many of you guys are married, people raise their hands,

and when I say how many of you are single, they all whoop. It's like, woo! Oh, that's good, that's good. And there's like, there is a celebratory pride that comes with being single, and I hope people hold this dearly that these things for better or worse don't last. Yeah.

You're going to probably end up with someone. And so instead of like boo-hooing through this time, love it, like it, because one day it might be gone. And you'll romanticize looking back how great it was to be in a relationship with yourself. Absolutely. True, I love that. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. That's what you should have said.

It was really that. I'd love to do a TED Talk. Yeah, well, I mean, you need to on this, on this exact topic. I think it's unbelievable. I've won the last question for you. You said at the beginning of our interview, you said that when you were a kid

and you were observing people in the industry, I was saying observing you, and then you started talking about observing others. You said, I was always looking at people and trying to make sense of who I wanted to be. Yes. Today, who do you want to be? Who is it that you look or not even who as a person, but who do you want to be with the values, the characteristics, the qualities, the inner that you are speaking about?

What are those things that you aspire for today? We heard a story about this couple. We have a section on our show called Drew's News. We had pulled up a story about the couple who was in a hundred years of age. I think they've been married for, I don't know, 80 something years. And they said when they were asked, like, can you give a wisdom? And their wisdom was when you are getting in a row or a fight or something, like take a time out there today, who inspires me because again, it does not have to be of the romantic kind,

but when you see yourself rising, when that blood starts to boil, when you start to like clench and freak and get spun out, instead of spewing that reaction and like Linda Blair exorcist all over the room, I will have such regret for any type of moments that I have like that. And I want to become the master of the person who knows how to excuse themselves. Walk away. Take a deep breath. I have breath written on my wrist in tattoo and I still forget to look at it.

Like after one rich deep breath, after one removal of yourself in a situation, after one time out, after one walk away, you are not going to come back usually as spun out. So I think that for me is probably like the goal, de jour in my life right now is like behavior mastery and funny enough as far as the people I follow, it's the same people for the last 30 years. It's Nan and Chris and Peter and Brian and Steve. It's like Cameron and my oldest friend Mel, we celebrate 40 years this year. Wow.

I stick with people because I'm still trying to become like them. But we have a hell of good time, like, along the way. But I just am in love with people who I think, God, darn it. Yeah. When I get to be like you, when I can learn to react like you, when I can live the way I see you living, because they're not, not fun. They're not, not funny and spontaneous and cool and interesting

and have a wild side. Like, you don't have to be boring. No, definitely not. But I think when you're a kid at least I did, I thought you probably were, if you were an almighty person, you were probably a crashing bar. So I wanted to hang out with all the like the ruckus.

Like I wanted to be in the rumpus room with all the like Cucadoodles just like me. But everyone I admire, they're just like really cool people too. They're fun and loving and interesting and humorous. So it turns out all the people you admire don't have to be boring. They can be everything you want to be. Of the druid. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I love you too.

This was one of the most beautiful human exchanges that I've had. It was such a special memory because of you. Find that interesting, because I feel like that's what you do and give to people every day. It is, but it's, I don't know, it's different when you really get to hear from the heart and speak from the heart.

I was gonna say it feels so open-hearted. Yeah. You and I just like, you know, my dad used to say about like the body. It's just Tupperware, man. It's just Tupperware. That's good. And it's like, it's true.

It's like, when do you sit down and sort of like unzip your chest and like reveal your organs and your heart? And like for all those people who are amounted to size the head and the heart, also please pay attention to the gut. Yeah, the God is absolutely for sure. And Barry even says like so many ancient wisdoms are really about the gut that it's all about the gut. The health, the insight, the instinct, you know, the truth, the alarm bells. Like God pay attention. One thing as a mom, I've really hooked and do in the last year, is telling my girls,

I want you to pay attention to what feels good or makes you feel good. That's fantastic. Let's go with that. But I want you to be as equally heightenedly aware of what doesn't make you feel good. Absolutely. And let's explore that. I love that. Yeah, it's so needed And let's explore that. I love that. Yeah, it's so needed.

It's so needed. I'm so glad you raised that about the guides. So easily missed. And I think we're just getting there now. Well, it's not sexy. It's a side-yeah, exactly. The heart and the head is poetry. Yeah, a touch.

A touch. Yeah. That's that gut. Trust that. Because that's your little compass inside your body. I love it. If you love this episode, you will enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.

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to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Munga Shatekler, and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find in major league baseball, international banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me, and my whole view on astrology change.

Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The therapy for Black Girls Podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care.

for Black Girls Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care.