On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Greg McKeown ON: Essentialism & Doing Less To Get The Most Out Of Your Life

Episode Date: September 21, 2020

Is it possible to get more out of life with less? Jay Shetty sits down with New York Times Bestselling author and business owner, Greg McKeown, to navigate essentialism’s insights. According to McKeown, essentialism is not about doing more things. It's about doing more of the right things. If you are overwhelmed with a full plate and caught up in the rat race of life, tune in to this entire episode of ON Purpose to hear Jay Shetty and Greg McKeown discuss the critical aspects of essentialism and how you can apply them to your life. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you for coming back every week to listen, learn, and to grow. And I know that you want to grow your minds in ways that you haven't even understood you. Right. It's all about expanding, extending, asking questions that we've never thought of, being introduced and exposed to people that we've never ever heard of. But today's a guest that I think you may have seen his book,

you may even have read it. And if you haven't, you are going to want to read it straight after this interview. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, Essentialism, the Disciplined Pursuit of less, and the founder of McEwen Inc. accompanied with a mission to teach essentialism to millions of people around the world. Their clients include Adobe, Apple, Airbnb, Cisco, Google, Facebook, Pixar, Salesforce, Twitter,

and Yahoo. Now McEwen is an accomplished public speaker and has spoken to hundreds of audiences around the world, including Australia, Bulgaria, Canada, China, and highlights include speaking at South by Southwest, interviewing our goal at the annual conference of the World Economic Forum. Greg's writing has appeared and been covered by Fast Company, Fortune and Huff Post and Inc. magazine and Harvard Business Review, he's also been interviewed on numerous TV and radio shows, including NPR and NBC. In 2012, he was named a young global leader by the World Economic Forum. And today I'm excited to talk to him because I was just saying to them, before we started the interview,

I loved this book the moment I was exposed to and experienced it. And I've had so many leaders, whether it's been leaders of small community centers through to corporate executives that have loved his work and spoken highly of it. I'm so excited to share with you today Greg's insight and wisdom. Greg, thank you for being here. It's so great to be with you. Thanks Jay.

And we've been bonding behind the scenes just to everyone knows before we started the scene, we were bonding over our Britishness. And we were both happy to learn that we're actually grew up or we're born not so far away from each other. And so you may see some British references being thrown in now and again, or some other. But Greg, I want to start off by talking a bit about you and learning a bit like you, learning more about you because I think that the person behind the perspective

is always more fascinating. And the perspective that you have is fascinating anyway and I'm obviously drawn to it because of essentialism and less and living as a monk for three years. And I love playing around with the thought of essentialism and the pursuit of less. But I wanted to start by asking you, what do you believe that you have continuously pursued less of in your life since the beginning? Yeah, okay, less, what have I pursued the less of? I mean, I want to become more and more of who I really am, less and less of who I really am not, and particularly around like my sense of mission in life.

So, I mean, this journey, you can, I mean, every journey starts at different places when you're talking about your life, but one place it started for me was, was 20 years ago, where I was staring at a piece of paper in my hands, with all these scribbles, all these answers to a question. The question was, what would you do if you could do anything? And as I was looking at my answers, I suddenly realized not what I'd written down on the list, but what I hadn't written down on the list. I noticed law school isn't on my list, which was inconvenient because I was at the time at law school in the UK.

And well, what do you do in this moment? And part of you wants to just carry on doing what you've done before, put the idea back, but for me, there was no really putting it back in the original packaging. The thought of being able to just do what I really wanted, which was to teach and to write. It was so liberating, felt so naming

that the idea of trying to force it. But then I thought, well, I still need to call my parents. So, you know, I call the 15-digit number back to England and my mother answers. Fortunately, she listens for a while and she says, I think you bet, Dr. Dad. So now he comes on the phone. Now, what do you say? After all this time, all this money, all this effort, you know, to get you on this journey, and now I'm calling, I was in the United States at the time, so I'm calling from halfway around the world, with this hair-brained idea, I'm gonna quit law school, and he listened, which was not entirely like him.

But then he said this, he said, he actually pulled a line straight out of Hamlet. He said, son, what have I always told you? He says, to die in own self self be true. That's amazing. Yeah, he never said that to me in his whole life. He just claimed that he had in this moment. I'll tell you what, he'd said my whole life, he'd said go to law school. I mean, I wasn't there by accident. I mean, so he said the right thing at the right time and he added this, he said, look, he said,

he said, choose what is right, let the consequences follow. I wish the children's him that phrase. And that was, I mean, what you might as well have said is, look, choose what is essential, let the consequences follow, because in that little story is sort of the seed of everything that's gone on since in my life. And really from that point on, it was about be careful, not to let non-essential pursuits, even good pursuits keep you from what it is you're really here to do. So such a pathetically short period of time left for others. And you know, I have time for doing what other people are doing just

because they're doing it or just following opportunities just because they're good or before you instead trying to find that particular message, that particular path that I'm supposed to be on. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Tell me what you think would have happened had your parents had a different response. And like you said, like most parents, your parents had almost paved out a particular path for you.

And I've always joked about that in my own life too, where I could either grow up to be a doctor, a lawyer, or a failure, and those were my three options. Yeah. And that's because that's what I was exposed to. Yes, seriously. I didn't even know there was another career that existed if I'm completely honest and it sounds crazy But I literally mean it. They were like finite boxes and options in my mind

So you had that too like a lot of people listening or watching this will also feel the same way and they'll be like Jay Greg I get it. That's that's how I feel But what if you'd call your parents and you think your parents had a different view? Let's say your parents were not that they were encouraging, but that they were discouraging, not that they quoted Hamlet or gave you like the perfect advice they've never given you. But let's say they just said,

well, you're going to fail or whatever it was. How do you think that would have affected you? And I know it's a completely hypothetical situation,. How do you think that would have affected you? And I know it's a completely hypothetical situation, but how do you think that would have affected you? And knowing what you know now, how would you guide people to pursue this pursuit despite having a positive or negative reaction from Penn? Yeah, I think that's really valid.

I mean, I think what would have happened is probably what I was already doing, which was a bit of a straddled strategy. All day, I'm there going to my classes, trying to do well at those, but my real passion is this other kind of teaching and writing in leadership and development. And so I'm sort of spending all night doing that.

And so what you get, if you do that that is you're not really making ideal progress in either path. And so you just keep on straddling it and going along. I think if they had come down hard on, look, just get back here, get back study and then let's talk about it. Maybe they would have been able to shift that back to a position of struggle. I don't think it was very sustainable for me to be able to just maintain that duality for too long. It's too uncomfortable for me.

But I think for other people listening to this, watching this, it's about trying to discern the difference between the part you're supposed to be on and the parallel path you're on right now. If people are completely misaligned, I think they can feel that. But sometimes they can be conned a little bit more by, well, it's good. I'm doing as good. I've cost a job, but in these times, it was just grateful for that. And I'm not suggesting that people just as bluntly and boldly maybe as I did to quit law school and go off, but at least to become aware of the two parts,

to recognize that the path you're on, even if it's a good one, a parallel path never meets the essential path. And so it's really to create enough space that you can feel that clarity of voice inside, saying, this is the way. Not the one you're on, this is the way. Walk in this path. And I think if you get enough internal clarity, it actually, I mean, first of all, it allows you to have a conversation. Without that internal clarity, I couldn't even call my parents, right? And then hopefully that clarity can build to the point that you have a lot of courage. Essentialism, the book ended up writing in the work that I

so focus on now, isn't about just saying no. It's about saying yes to what matters most. And so it's getting enough clarity around what matters most to you that you have strength to be able to say no to other things, to be able to at first just have a conversation, maybe a negotiation, if necessary, perhaps a disagreement, right?

Where you just go, okay, you want this, but I can tell this is the right path, so I'm going to do it. And you must have had that in choosing this completely different life that you've had. A good way to learn about a place is to talk to the people that live there. There's just this sexy vibe,

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because like you said, and I appreciate you saying this, not everyone has to drop out and jump straight into something. And at the same time, people may straddle for a bit longer, which seems like a good sensible thing to do until you feel ready. What are the, and I know there's no way of putting a number on this, but if you had to say there are three things that you've done since quitting, that you think have led to

you building such a successful company doing what you love to do and what matters to you, what are three things that you've done differently? Because there are so many people that either fear taking the step or they've taken the step and now they're in that no man's land and that uncertainty is just scary and I'm sure you felt that I have to. But what are the three things that you've done right that you think people can learn from What are the three things that you've done right that you think people can learn from, that if they're about to make the jump like you did, or they're inconveniently in that space because they've lost their job due to circumstances or they're there anyway, what are three things that you think you got right?

I think the first thing that really made a difference was seeking out the people who had been really successful, highly successful in this. So I made a very deliberate point to try and knock on the doors to call people. I mean, this is all pre-the-internet, but I was definitely, you know, I mean, there's all semi-stalking people right going, okay, where are they? How can I get their number? Let people know this is what I'm trying to do now. I just started, so that was like one. Two, which was so closely connected to it, I don't know how I would differentiate them in some ways, but I just said, okay, writers write. If I want to write and teach, I need to start writing right now. And I didn't have the way to publish at that point, but I started writing immediately. I mean, I literally never went back to study law,

I never went back onto the campus, I went back to England, but I just was immediately reading and writing. And so I realized, well, anyone can write a book, you can say, hey, I'm writing a book, and I would say that to people, hey, I'm writing this book, and I would love to interview you.

And so that was one of the ways I got access to many best-selling authors and people I was reading their books fascinated by them and then getting to hear the story behind the story and learn how did they do it, how did they get best start. So I wasn't trying to do this on my own by any means. You know, this is definitely a stand on the shoulders of Giants' strategy. And so I think if I was to divide those two, it's one, it's really the interviewing of the experts, learning figuring out the best of what others already have figured out.

And the second is to start immediately doing the thing you want to do. One of the principles I love the most, I didn't have words for it back then, but it's just the courage to be rubbish. Every single writer, the first thing they write is rubbish. And it doesn't matter even if they're quite talented writer. At this point, they're going to start and what they first write will not be the end result. And so you just have to, you know, what principal I love is to write two rubbish pages a day.

And still now, I'm working on a new book right now, a deadline pressing upon me. And even today, it's just, right, right, your next two rubbish pages. That's what you can do. And it'll get less rubbish over time. And you know, if you're willing to do it iteratively, eventually it's not bad, and then hopefully it becomes good. And if you're patient, it can become decent and then great. And you just have to keep going, improving, improving. So I don't know.

I don't think that's three, but I'll give you those are the couple of things that I feel like made a difference. Yeah, no, they're great. I actually think there's some really great insight in them, especially that one around start doing the thing you actually want to do. I think that's the one that the others are important and completely great to. And I think I would probably repeat some of them even when I share mine, but that specific one really hits a nerve because I think we're always waiting for someone to give us the official permission to do the thing we actually

want to do, whether it's a publisher or a agent or a boss or an executive or whatever it may be. I feel like we have this. I guess it comes from school of always having to ask permission and we almost get it entwined in our head that we can't start doing it until someone says we can. I think that's totally true and that's I mean for me with the law school particularly the quitting moment, logically I'd always known you don't have to do this. But emotionally, it didn't feel possible until I'm 5,000 miles away, and somebody says in passing, oh, if you do decide to stay in America,

you should do whatever. And their assumption that was possible, plus with the space and distance, plus I suppose the blue sky above helps too, right, that you're going, oh, this could be a good life. Suddenly, it went from being just a logical peripheral thing to like something that you go, no, this is it, this is for real.

You can do this different thing. And so I completely agree that a lot of people are just think it's not realistic. I can't, I'm not the sort of person who's a writer. I'm not the sort of person who's an entrepreneur. I'm not the sort of person, whatever the thing is that people want really inside to do. And I'll tell you another thing about this,

is that I think people often because that deeper, clear it, yes for them, it's so familiar. It's like they don't know it's, you know, they don't know they have a unique thing going on They've always just thought about that type of work I had always always thought about teaching and writing since I was like five years old literally But it was just with you if it took years until I was like oh that Not everybody has that not everybody wants that all the time. They want something completely different.

And now that I have children, it's been like a real priority is trying to help them to look and discover the things they already naturally curious about, naturally pulled to interested in. And saying, look, I'll say it often to them, do you know, when you fix that, well, one of my sons, well, my son, four children, but one son, he can fix almost anything. He's only 14 now.

And I'll always point out to him, you know, your natural curiosity for that is so much greater than mine. Like, I don't care about it like you do. You are fascinated. This is a strength for you. This is something. Just pay attention to it. This grew into his language, I want to be an engineer, or this grew into now he wants to

be a biotech engineer, focused in medical devices. What I'm at point is sharing that, is that he's 14 and he has that kind of level of clarity. The reason isn't, it's just because it's sort of been helpfully pointed out a little along the way that what's in you is unique. Yeah. To trust that uniqueness that other people don't actually have the same inclinations that you do. Yeah, I love that. And I'm so excited to see how children kind of given that early on, kind of blossom and reach. I'm really excited to see where that goes and the fact that you're

getting to share that with your kids must be so rewarding. Let's dive into the day because you spoke about it there. I feel like so many people want to do so much in their day. And they want to get so much achieved in a day. How do you go about guiding leaders and thinkers and even yourself into creating a productive day and setting yourself up for a great day? Because it's almost like what you said, you have to have the courage to write two rubbish pages, start doing what you're doing. And I find like whether someone's working at a company or an entrepreneur or wherever they are,

I feel like mastering your day is such a big part of mastering life and all the rest of it. And it's sometimes we win or lose on the day. So give us some insight as to how we can go about thinking, making our days the best we possibly can. Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is to recognize this, yeah, it's not I'm not the first to say it, but that people overestimate what they can do in a day and underestimate what they can do in a decade, right? So when I wake up in the morning, I do tend to feel there's way too much I can do too much. And so even after years of working as an essentialist, I still feel that when I wake up in the morning,

there's just way too many things to do today. Of course there is. I mean, it'd be really, really odd if there wasn't. You know, like, no, I don't have more than I can fit into one day, even though I've got, I've got, hopefully decades left to live. Of course there's more than you can do today. Varsely more.

So you can do one or two things at that point. You can say, well, I'll just sort of jump into today, reactively, pick up the phone that's sitting right there. I did a thing with Steve Harvey a while ago. And he had me with someone in his audience and we went to her house, asked her, well, where do you put your phone? And we're looking, we're walking around her home.

And she's, oh, yeah, I can just keep it there. And she pointed under her pillow. Yeah. And I, and I'm like, what, literally, you sleep with an under your pillow. And she said, yeah. So she wakes up every time someone texts or emails it all night, wakes up, responds, puts it under a pillow again.

And when I, when I've shared that story with a few people, normally there is an audible thing, like in the room's crazy. And then slowly I realized that that's a bit self-righteous of us all, because for a lot of people, yeah, they don't have it under their pillow, but they just only have 12 inches from their ear. So it's not really that different. But so for me, the question is, what do you do with that feeling? Do you just react to that feeling and get to the phone and get into the inbox and all of that distraction? Or do you do something else?

And it's gonna be a choice here every day, becomes a habit so you don't have to think about it. But definitely a routine. But one of the things for me is I definitely want to be reading wisdom literature for me scriptures before I'm checking any email, before I'm doing any of that stuff. So I want to try and get at least a bit centered.

I don't want to try and give us a sense of perfection about this, but at least a bit so that I'm not just a function of all those of the reactive voices and even the reactive voices inside of me. The second thing for me is that I do have long term goals and I break those down weekly projects. Okay, here are the projects I feel really, you know, really excited about doing. So one of them is the book, as I've already mentioned, for me, second is the podcast. And so there's not much more beyond that. There's not much more time professionally for me beyond that. So it's about getting the first work cycles done on those first. I try and do them in, I mean, it's nothing religious, but 90-minute cycles, try and take a break in between.

You get maybe three good work cycles in the morning. And if I can really use those well, then I feel like I'm going to make some good progress on the projects that matter. Push other things to the afternoon. On one of the breaks, I'll go on a walk with my wife, Anna. Five o'clock at night, I have an absolute four-real, really do it, leave the office dead like.

Yeah, yeah, that is like, that is really, that is like religious, so to speak. So, and the way I do it, it helps, is that I announce it like a town cryer to the family. So, I walk out and I'll say it is 459. And I'll do it loud so everybody can hear 501 today. And it makes it fun and it's silly, but it means I'm accountable immediately to that time.

Yes. Otherwise, it's 536. And if it's 6Y, not 7, if it's 7Y, not 8. And it goes, people just work especially in COVID times. There's no natural boundaries, so work can just consume everything. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao.

The tree that gives us chocolate. But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen or tasted. I've never wanted us to have a gun, but you saw this tax of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate. We're all lost. It was madness.

It was a game changer. People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind, so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle, and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building arm with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that, you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all these for a damn bar of chocolate.

Listen to obsessions, wild chocolate, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, full in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the Psychology of Your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s. From career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences,

incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Oh, Juliet, honestly, I have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about. From the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg, now streaming on the IHOT radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. I'm Mungeshia Tickler and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment

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wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I love that. Those are all great examples. And by the way, I don't find that silly at all. I love that. I think that's great. I think I might have to start doing that too. I really, I love rules and rituals

and almost drama added to life in that sort of drama, like sort of, you know, playing a role or a character that, you know, it helps everyone kind of laugh and settle the mood and helps people understand. One of the ones that's been favorite for me and looking at my day is I always often ask myself at the start of the week, what's going to make me feel like I've had a fulfilling week at the start of the week? Like what do I need to do or be in order to feel like I've had a good day? Because I've realized that there have been days in my life where I've done everything that was on my to-do list.

And I felt really dissatisfied because I didn't do the one thing that was the one thing that was going to make me feel really fulfilled and accomplished and successful and whatever it is that you want to feel. And I find like, but when I've done that one thing, even if everything else kind of faded away and didn't quite happen, you still feel really, really great. And so, for a long time now, I've always tried to approach my week by asking myself at the start of the week, what's going to make me feel that this week was a good week and what's going

to make me feel that this day was a good day because I think so much is in how we feel. And I never wanted to live in a world where I did everything on my to-do list but felt dissatisfying. I just love that. I mean, that's like, I mean, essentialism really is about precisely what you just said. It's not about doing more things. It's about doing more of the right things. And in that way, in fact, it is quite distinguished

between all of the productivity thinking and that's all on one side. And then sort of essentialism somewhat alone on its own over here because it's saying, it's saying, look, you could look, I mean, the most important things might not be showing up on your to-do list at all right now. It almost certainly not showing up in your inbox right now. And so if those are your directional documents or your sources for decision making, then certainly, you could get not just the end of the week or the month, but the end of your life, right? I mean, this is literally done. It's not like we're not making this stuff up.

People get to the end of their lives and they go, oh, right. I didn't do this stuff I was meant to do. That's for real. In fact, I could maybe argue it's perhaps more normal than not. People get there and then they go, oh, this was all just distraction. This was all, I missed what mattered. And that's like, you know, that's a scenario. I think most people do not want to find themselves in that situation. So, but no one meant to be there. They just ended up there by default. Yeah. All right. So I have a question for you. Are you game for some? You look a little different. Okay. Now, I just I was thinking about this coming into this conversation, right?

Like right now, I thought that people listening to this would learn more by rather than me just talking about essentialism, like actually trying to implement it, like trying to have a conversation really about it for real. Tell me something, Jay, in your life that is really, really important, essential, highly important, that you are currently under investing in. First thought. I was going to ask you the same question. I'm glad I beat you to it. Yeah, it's in best. Oh, first thought, oh, that I'm under investing in. Well, in first thought. It's hard for me. I strongly had it. No, I haven't had, like, I'm like, I don't know.

Like, I'm, I feel very aligned. So it's hard. But I'd say the first person I'd say is my mom. All right. Same mom, like parents, you know, like, yeah. Really, obviously, deeply, really important. Under investing in, my mom. All right. Same mom, like parents, you know, like, yeah, obviously deeply, really important under investing in push-all. Yeah, okay, so good, you got a good, and that's a good answer, clear answer.

Let's just put it for a second, a little more. Okay, why are they so important to you? I feel like my parents specifically have done a great, like, great attitude of giving me freedom and my sister freedom to become who we want it to be at a certain point, and also remain so independent where they've never really asked anything of me, and that only makes me want to love them more. So why they're so important to me is because they've given me a great foundation, they've never really asked for anything back.

And I feel that that's a very special relationship. You've just said two things. One is that they blessed your life by investing in you. It's a sense, a lot of parents do that right? They've given up their life to help you, but also they're not said, well, therefore you owe us something. Yeah. Of course, we do owe our parents lots, but they're not requiring that of you. They're just saying, we really meant this for you. We didn't do this so you'd owe us. We didn't do this with strings attached. So they've they they bless you. It's like doubly blessed.

Yeah, which makes me feel even worse. Because that's not the goal. No, no, no, no. I'm joking too. I'm just saying that, you know, it's a beautiful feeling to to feel that double blessing because you're like, wow, like I, you know, they deserve a lot. Yeah, you won the parenting lottery. Yeah, in my, in my, I would say that I've always believed that in every area of my life. So I've never looked at anything I've received

as a deficiency or as a superiority to anyone else. Yeah, that was interesting what you just disengaged because what I think you just said is, no, I didn't get like, I'm not saying my parents were the perfect parents, are just grateful for all they did give. Correct. That makes up for anything you could become critical over and see, oh, well, that wasn't quite what,

all in that person have this advantage. You're not saying I had all the advantages, no, I genuinely grateful. Okay, so when you say you're under investing, what are you currently investing, and what do you wish you were investing, like what's the delta? Currently investing, what are you currently doing? I currently, obviously, because I live far away from them, my parents are back in London, so it's phone calls, and messages, and updates, and things in London, so it's phone calls and messages and updates

and things like that. So it's very much based on FaceTime and all the rest of it. And I have been, we decided we'd go on one family holiday, yeah, so I'm always making sure that like earlier this year, we were in India together and then last year, we went to Greece together. And so I've always made an attempt to try and do that. So that's currently investing. And although I think that that's fine and I'm happy

about that, I think it's more, and you know, I think about this a lot myself too, it's like people don't want your time, they want your energy. And I feel like my mom would just love more updates from me on a daily weekly basis. Anything that's happening in my life. Like she would just love to know and be in the know and get that more, I guess, that more spontaneous connection of a feeling. How much do you actually, in terms of like minutes in the last week-ish or on average, do you actually talking to your mother? It's an hour a week. And what would success look like, not perfect,

but like you would feel that you no longer said it was being under-invested in? I think that hour a week would remain the same, but I think it would become a couple of times, a message a day or a couple of times a day where it didn't have to be time. It was just the thought. And it wasn't just the thought of, it's not just like an arbitrary message of, oh, I miss you, I love you.

I think sharing something meaningful in my day that I think would, whether it's something I ate or whether it's something I did or someone I spoke to or whatever it is, something that makes her think that I'm thinking of her. Yeah, well, I mean, you just said it. It's thinking of her, enough to share, to share a detail that brings your life to life for her. Absolutely, that's it. So, I mean, that automatically, to me, sounds really doable, potentially. Yeah. Any new thing is still in your view.

Very doable. But it feels like if you were to say, OK, I'm going to, well, I'll put it to you, actually. Right? You've written a lot about how to design thoughtfully and create mindsets and lifestyle that really is, that helps you live at a higher contribution. But just walk me through using your process how you can do this now. Like, what do you do to make this an actual part of your?

Yeah, so there you are. You're going forward. Yeah, my favorite habit, formation structure, which has been spoken about in psychology, which is called anchoring. I really believe that any new habit you want to create needs to be anchored around a stable habit. So I think I always eat at the same time every day.

It's something that's very regulated in my life. And I'm pretty much never miss meal times. And so I think doing it around meal time, whether it's before or after breakfast or before or after lunch, and it would have to be before or after lunch, dinner wouldn't count because England's already a city. England doesn't work. And I think that's part of...

I think that's been... When I really think about it, I'm sharing it very honestly and openly. That's been my hardest thing, that usually by the time I'm free of April and openly, that's been my hardest thing that usually by the time I'm free, available, and open, and I have time in my diary, it's midnight in the UK. So, to understand that. Yeah, you know this, we live in the UK's eight hours ahead.

And so, that's usually been the case, so it would have to be before or after lunch, or before or after breakfast. I think those would be the best way for me to input it in the simplest way. Yeah, those things are never gonna move. That's why I've chosen them. Yeah, like that. And because of the eight hours, even you thinking about your mother first thing in the day,

is actually already halfway through her day. Yeah, exactly. So you think you're doing, well, hey, it's lunchtime. I'm thinking about my mother. I'm sending a message. I'm calling her, it's like, she's waiting all day for this. Yeah, exactly. And I message you're doing, well, hey, it's lunchtime. I'm thinking about my mother. I'm sending a message. I'm calling her. It's like, she's waiting all day for this. Yeah, exactly.

And I message her when I go to sleep. So I go to sleep around, say 9.30, 10. And my mom waits a bit around 6 am. But she gets the first thought first thing in the morning. Yeah. And so I do message her at that time, but I can't get into a full conversation at that time or I can't get into a real exchanger at that time because I'm trying to sleep early.

So yeah. So it sounds like it's a breakfast habit. Yes. And it's, is it before or after? I can think about that. Is it like before you get anything to eat, you do it? Is it, afterwards like afterwards you're probably raring to go on the next thing. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it's that maybe it's like, it's a, I don't know. It's almost maybe it's a, maybe it's a like, it's a, I don't know. It's almost like Wily of preparing. It's almost like Wily of preparing. Yeah, you could, you could, you could do like a,

what's that, what's that to, the app where you, you know what, you just record the, record the message and it sends it, oh, come on. Marco Polo. I just Marco Polo. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. Marco Polo is perfect for what you're describing

because she would get to see you. So, so Marco Polo has made its whole rise because it's asynchronous communication. So you get to leave your video message. They can pick it up whenever they want and they can send one. And you can watch it at the same time. Sometimes that will sink up,

but it will free you from, okay, what time is it there, what time am I doing it? But you'll get the energy you're talking about more than a little text, and you can still do it while you're doing something else, especially if you have your phone on a stand or whatever. Hey, I'm thinking about this morning, this was on my day, Mom, thinking of you,

you can do this thing in like one minute, two minutes. I love this, I just love this little idea for you, right? I know it's a small tweak, but those are the kinds of things. I'll tell you something. I read this recently that when you leave home, right, to go to, once you're done with high school, you go into university, you have had 94% of the FaceTime you're going to have with your parents. Yeah, that's crazy, right? It's crazy for me My eldest now is is 17 and so I'm staring at that in the face that that not very long from now. She's gonna be out 17 Sorry, you've blown my now. I can't listen to anything else yet I'm sorry, you've blown my, now I can't listen to anything else you have to say. It's amazing.

It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, so my youngest is 11, all is to 17. I mean, it surprises me too. It amazes me too, but it's been this great adventure. We just enjoyed, we got some great vice years ago that said, kids were, they said, you're in the golden years, which meant like your children are out of, they're out of nappies and they're not driving yet. That's what they said, you're in the golden years, which meant like your children are out of nappies and they're not driving yet. That's what they said. And we're like, yeah. And they said, you've got to emphasize, you really make memories right now. And we just seriously took that

for real. We're like, yeah, okay, we don't have to be one twice. We will do it. And so now what we have is that they're all almost all teenagers and the cultures just, no, I didn't know it was going to be like this. I didn't know it was going to be as fun as this. I didn't know it was going to be just that we all became really great friends. I didn't know it was going to be like that. I thought it was going to be rougher than that worse than that. Yeah, you've reminded me of a website. I talked about it recently in a video. It's a website called See Your Folks. I don't know if you've seen that.

I haven't. And so I brought it up here just like I can explain it to people. So it's called seeyourfolks.com. And what you do is you say, where do your parents live? So you enter the place they live, so once you know you're kingdom, it says on average, how many times do you see your parents a year? So before the pandemic, I probably used to see my parents,

I'd say six times a year In terms of and sorry, I should actually get the number of days. So I see them six times a year for probably a week So that's 42 times per year. Yeah, the beast is a bit How old are my parents let's let's save them there? Well, like you have right now. I'm getting the idea now. I'm getting the idea Well, like, if you have a mind, right. No, I'm getting the idea now. I'm getting the idea. Say that again.

No, I'm just, sorry, I was just getting the idea of what you're saying. So you're estimating how long, how many times you are likely to see them in the rest of your life. So you type in, where your parents live, on average, how many times you see them per year, how old is your mom? How old is your dad?

You go, show my results. And it tells you how many more times you see your parents. And actually, I would recommend that you just, you don't write in per day, you write in per time. So on average, how many times do I see my parents six times per year? And if I put it in just to be fully honest and to really get away from it, I'll see my parents 66 more times. That's the calculation that it does.

Yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? And when you think of 66, whether you think that number is high or low, I think of most of us, you go, wow, I only saw them 66 more times. Like, hopefully, to me, that doesn't sound like a long time at all. No. It definitely makes you aware of how many times seeing as we see our partners every day or whatever it may be. And it's so finite. When you start to, one of the things about our parents, one of the reasons I think we've taken them for granted is because every waking moment of our lives, they've been there. And of course there'll be some people tuning into this saying, yeah, actually my parents died when I was young, where I didn't know one of them or I was raised single

and I never even knew, I mean, and they'll feel the absence so much clearer. Yeah, I suppose either of us do, because our parents are still alive. We can at any time, or we can call them, we can pick up the phone, we could have this relationship. So you just think, oh, it'll always be there.

But of course, it just isn't like that, is it? You know, COVID is one illustration for all of us a little bit of a global wake up call to think about this. But for me, one of the things that made me change is I just started calling my family every week. We do a video call once a week on a Sunday morning. And we've done it every day now. It's only been about a year, maybe it's a year and a half now. And we do it every week now.

And it's just so much better because again, it's so easy for time to pass. And basically, you stop knowing about them. You think you know them because when you see them, you've got lots of memories together and you've got lots of feeling with each other, but really, you do not know how they're weak when. You know how when they're year went, you know, sometimes. And so you've got to build in these practices, otherwise, all the other forces, all the good things. I mean, for goodness sake, what is keeping you from calling your mother each day? Well, it's all good things. Yeah.

Lots of good things. As you try to, you're making this impact in the world. It's you, you know, teaching people, enlightening people, it's your mission out there that's noble and worthy. So it's not like, you're, it's not like so to speak, you're being tricked by something bad or vile. But this is how I've noticed. This is sort of why I think essentialism has a niche or a need at all, is because it's the 90% and above important things that need to be in priority position. Otherwise we'll just get caught in the middle, or by total trivia, but even just in the middle

is lots of good things we're doing. And then we find ourselves years go by, oh, I didn't do. Yeah. Didn't do that stuff. Yeah. And that is of course what regrets are made of. Okay, so I have an idea for you.

God. Okay, so here's, well, I got one idea. One idea is that like you do, you have to do this for like the next, I don't know, you tell me the time, even for a week, whatever, then you come on my podcast. We talk about it again. Okay. How do you feel? How do you feel about it? It's easy. I'm not easy with that. Yeah. Yeah. I could totally do it. It's, um, yeah. No, I, I think that's beautiful. And I love seeing essentialism essentialism in action for sure. I think it's the, I genuinely think it's the only way to live because it's the only way, well, it's not the only way

to live, it's the only way to live a life that you're fulfilled by. And so you either have to make the choice and the adapting now or you have the challenges and the regrets later. Yeah. And unfortunately, when it gets to that side, that's where you feel helpless and that you can't do anything about it. Yeah, it's the universality of trade-offs. Yes. It's that every time you say yes, you're saying no to something.

So every time you say yes to a 30 or 40 or 60% important activity, you're saying no to something. So every time you say yes to a 30 or 40 or 60% important activity, you're saying no to something in the top 90%. And that's, I think, the big shift of mindset that's necessary. Because otherwise, people just look at something and say, well, is it good? Yes. As if life is a closet universally large. So you can fit in any number of items of clothing and it will never fill up. But as we all know from our actual closets, if you just keep on saying yes to good stuff soon,

it's packed to full. There's no room for anything new. You can't find anything that you actually want. And so you have this very unsatisfying overloaded experience. And I think that, you know, that's the metaphor for life is that we, our lives are very full of stuff, but they're not satisfying because the most important things either aren't in there, or we can't find them, we can't enjoy them. And so essentially, as I think is a really achievable life bit by bit

Just like getting your closet organized is doable, but you have to learn some new habits and new adjustments Yeah, no, I completely agree and I think the only time that I feel Saying yes to a lot of stuff was useful when I wasn't sure and not all of it was meaningful the only time I think I felt the other way is when I wasn't sure and not all of it was meaningful. The only time I think I felt the other way is when I've tried starting something new. So when I've started something new, there was the only time where I've said yes to so much because you don't know what's going to work. You don't know what's going to work. And so you don't know what's most important. And that's the only time. And then as that builds and grows,

you have to get into essentialism straight away. Because otherwise, that's when you end up saying, yes, the too many things that don't matter. But in the beginning, you are going to, like you said, writing, having the courage to write two rubbish pages a day, you've got to have that courage in the beginning to be like, I don't know what's essential because this is new to me.

Yes. But as you figure it out, you have to get into essentialism again. That's the only time I can think in my life where I've, and maybe there's a hidden trait of essentialism in that. Yes, but I think so very much. So, so that there are three practices of essentialism, right? The first is to explore, the second is to eliminate, and the third is to execute. Expl second is to eliminate, and the third is to execute. Explore is what you're saying.

So it's to create enough space. Essentialists, paradoxically, they try more things than an onessentialist. They're more willing to explore. They're just not committing deeply to every single path. So as they try these things out, they're then quickly moving on to the elimination, whereas an non-essentialist will often just commit to a bunch of stuff, I'll go to law school,

that's what I'm doing, and they get in sunk cost bias, they're going more and more down this path, that they're not actually eliminating and pruning. And I suppose because they chose it so early, they just get committed to something that they don't, maybe it's a higher risk in their mind to be able to shift. If you've got a bunch of things, you're trying a bunch of things at first, you're willing to cut and kill, but you have to, I mean, to decide it comes from, of course, the Latin, which means to cut or kill. So you don't decide unless you're getting rid of something. And I think that, you know, in an entrepreneurial time, or when someone's starting something, yes, try a bunch of different things.

But also get the second half of innovation. Do the elimination. Otherwise, you have these zombie projects, where you're still doing many, many, too many projects, many different directions, and always hoping that each one of them will live. You've got to just learn as fast as possible, which things are not the right path for you. Get rid of them so that you can invest in the few that you think really are the right ones for you. Yeah, absolutely. You start all these things, and then you have all these open things that are not finished, no completion, no satisfaction.

No satisfaction. Yeah, no satisfaction and no reflection on whether that was useful or not. I think that's the part that I find so great about essentialism is you're only able, you have to have that reflection point on, is this useful? What was useful about it? Is it going through? Is it being eliminated? Because if you don't do that, which we sometimes just leave doors wide open in our lives, and we never reflect on whether we wanted to close them or why they didn't close or why they stayed open,

and not knowing all of that just leads to far more confusion. Or the other extreme, which is what you said, is you pick one thing because you think that simple. And this is what I love about essentialism and what I was thinking about with my team before we did this podcast. And I was thinking a lot with them about this that simplicity is not an external thing, right? Like if you were 16 or whatever age you were and you knew exactly what you wanted to do,

adults would have said that person is thoughtful, they're organized, they have a plan, and they're like you would say simplicity in a good sense. Like they know what's essential in life. Like that's what's all what I've said. And if you were 16 and you said, you know, I don't really know what I want to be when I grow up, or kind of maybe you if you were 16 and you said, you know, I don't really know what I want to be when I grow up. I kind of maybe want to write or maybe want to, you know, parents or friends parents would say, don't hang out with that kid like ever got a plan. Yeah, that's fun.

And while there's some truth in both, there is some truth in both. The overarching understanding is just that it's actually just because externally your life is figured out, it doesn't mean that you're living in ascensionism or simplicity. Yeah, I mean, that's so true, it's totally true, right? And sometimes I've said there's like two kinds of people in the world. There are people who are lost and there are people who know they are lost. And to be in the second category where you admit it in the morning, you wake up way too much

to, I'm not sure which things to do. There's too many things. If you admit it and face it, then you can start doing something about it. Like, when I used to go driving with my dad, it was famous in our family. You know, oh, yes, I just feel this is the right direction when we're lost. You know, I learned to distrust that expression. Oh, I know. I feel it's down here.

You don't feel it. You don't know. We're just lost. If you admit you're lost, you know, back in the day, you just pull over, ask someone directions. Now you're not lost anymore. So admitting it is part of this process. And and this is why, you is why the phrase, the disciplined pursuit of less, the disciplined pursuit of what is essential is so meaningful to me because it is

absolutely this willingness to day after day wake up. What's essential now? What's important now? Oh, we wake up. Oh, COVID. Oh, that's complete change. I mean, the pivots require the massive. So, so what your plan was the day before is almost certainly not your plan now. Yeah. But if you have that practice, the pursuit of each day, well, what's essential now, then you can keep adapting to whatever circumstances come along. And that internal process, process to me is like the very essence of essentialism. So often people when they read essentialism they'll say, well, I can't say no to my boss's boss, just like that, which I never write that they should do that.

But that's where their head goes. Is this very external interaction? And what I've spent all the years since writing Asensualism trying to reemphasize is like, no, start within. It's about you getting clarity. Of course, there's given take with everybody in your life. If you want relationships, it's going to be given take, but you can't have those conversations if you don't have internal clarity first. So that's the daily practice to get clear yourself so that you can even interact with others. Absolutely. Yeah, no, I'm so happy

hearing that from you, seniors. You are the creator of essentialism. But you know, it's true. Like it's often I get it in a different sense. Your example of you get it in the, you know, how do I tell my boss is boss and that being it's there. Yeah. Sometimes people say to me, well, Jay, you know, you used to be a monk and now you're married and you have a home and you have businesses and, you know, like, how does, you know, how does, like, it's kind of hard for people to figure out. And I'm like, yes. Simplicity is such an internal thing. Like, I wake up and I've had the same essential intention

for the last 10 years probably I'd say, which is I want to wake up and do what I love every day and I want to do it in a way that serves people and makes a difference in their life. And whether I was a monk or who I am now, I've had that same intention every single day. And so to me, I feel really simple and clear about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And whether I did that wearing robes as a monk or whether I do that living in LA, to me, I'm really clear on that.

And that's to me what gives me simplicity. Someone could have a extravagant, someone could have an extravagant life and a simple mind and someone could have a simple life that a confused mind. Yeah, I really like the distinction. I mean, I saw that you were on the interview by Oprah recently and I think that's a great illustration of what you're describing there. I mean, I don't know that any of us know, know Oprah, the real, but what we seem to sense in her, what seems to be the thing that has drawn people to her is a sense of clarity and intention. I know what I'm

about and what I'm not about. And after having spent the last, you know, two or three years closer to Hollywood, I'm even more impressed by what she was able to do with this, because what you don't, I think, appreciate on the outside of the industry is how it's how cluttered it is with, with is with a rush mentality, well, whoever's successful, we just should copy what they're doing. Well, that's successful. We just produce another three shows like that

and try and get them made. And so I just am impressed that she's been able to keep what appears to have been a pretty clear, simple intent and in all sorts of developments externally. I think it's been one of the reasons she's reached the audiences that she has. And I think it's absolutely why you've been able to reach the audiences you have.

Thank you, and I appreciate that. This has been such a refreshing conversation. I love it when you took charge of the interview. No, it's not my kind of job of it than I was. No, no, no. So I appreciated that a lot. I thought it when you took charge of the interview. I'm like, I had a job of it, and I was. No, no, no. So I appreciated that a lot. I thought it was great. And I'm really happy that everyone got to listen

to and observe and watch essentialism in action. And I think the little activity that we did today, and as small as everyone thinks it may be, it is the small things that make the biggest difference. I'm not the first to say it, but we know today. And as small as everyone thinks it may be, it is the small things that make the biggest differences. I'm not the first to say it, but we know that. Like it is these, it is, you know, life is made up of all of these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny moments. And, you know, how we feel in a day affects how that week goes and how we feel in a week affects how that month goes and how that month goes affects a year. And so it's so important that we don't underestimate answering that question.

So I want to let everyone know that of course I highly recommend you go out and get the book. Essentially, isn't that when you do it, I want you to go through that activity yourself as well. Because that activity in and of itself can give you so much more insight. And then the book will actually help you understand how to implement it into your daily life. So, you know, if you've loved this conversation like I have and you want to do more experiments on yourself and explore a little bit more, then I highly recommend you grab a copy of the book and order the book. Don't go out if you can't go out. Or order a copy of the book because it's going to lead you down a path to clarity. And I think that's what we're all looking for is just clarity in the noise, decluttering, and whether you think

you want more or less in your life, this applies to both because even if you want more of something, you need to be an essentialist. And even if you want less of the you need to be an essentialist. And if you are an Lessons of the Unividicentrianist, so you can't get away from Greg. Either way, but Greg, I want to ask you, we always end every interview with two short segments, one's called Fill in the Blanks and the other one's called the Final Five. So if you're happy with that, we can dive into that. Let's do it. Okay, so fill in the Blanks. I say a sentence you fill in the last word. A big part of long-term success is... you've fill in the last word. A big part of long term success is. Love.

I wish everyone knew how to hear and follow their internal voice of conscience. Understand that your time is best spent doing what you came here to do. Seeing the whole picture starts with creating time for concentrated thinking and working. Great, very thoughtful answers. I love all of them. Okay, these are your final five. So answers have to be in one word or one sentence maximum. So similar to what you just did now. Okay, so, oh, we do want to start. Okay, let's start with here. One question people should ask themselves daily.

Oh, what's essential now? Great question number two. What do you know that you are absolutely certain about but that some people may disagree with you about? I know that we were built for purpose. Right. I think there are people out there that disagree with that day, they kind of yeah I mean people think it's all accidental. Yeah. I think it's all been built with purpose. Okay.

Last two questions. You mentioned, you spent time reading Wisdom and Scripture. I wanted to ask you what's your favorite teaching from Scriptures or Wisdom? Well, there's an Old Testament scripture that I love, which is, trust in the Lord with all thine heart, lean not until I know under the standing, in all my ways acknowledge him and he will direct thy paths. I think that's the great exchange.

And nobody has to believe what I believe just because I am, but I think it's the great exchange that you give your life up and you say, okay, for me, I'm giving my life up, I believe in the universality of the brotherhood of man that we are, that we are all children of God. And so for me, it's about giving my life up in that service, it is service, and then he will give a different kind of life to me. And the exchange is like the best exchange possible. There's no better investment. You get paid 100 fold for making that exchange.

What was the Question number four. What's I ruined the rules on that one, didn't I? I know, but it's fine. It was a great answer. And I'm glad you did. So don't worry at all. What's the, what's your number one book recommendation that you love? Well, one one, I don't, I'd say that's awful question. Yeah, really? Um, one, one that I have often recommended is, uh, is a book by David McCullough, who is not

especially well now, but is an amazing writer. And he wrote, um, John Adams is a really amazing, founding father is him in some of the only founding fathers that didn't have slaves, has just one tiny insight into the most amazing people, both him and his son, both serve just presidents. Just, I can't read that book without being inspired about my own relationship with my own son. And just how much they knew. I am appalled when I read about them about how little I know. Thank you for that,

never heard so I need to check that out. Thank you so much. I'm so glad I asked that question. All right, fifth and final question. If you could create a law that everyone in the world would have to follow, what would it be? Well, I can't answer that honestly without answering it from sort of a religious perspective. I mean, it's just to, it would be to love God and to love each other. I mean, I mean, I quite feel surprised

in the emotional saying that, but it's just like, look at the problems. Look, the two big for us, just two big for us on our own to just go, well, I'll just, I'll just one person, any, any president, any leader, any prime minister, what they're really going to solve these problems is it's way bigger than that. And so I think we need to look to source greater than us. And then, and to really not not out of duty or dogma, but to to, but out of real love, and to be filled with that love, maybe greater love than we are capable of ourselves, so that we can love the unlovable. We were all unlovable. Sometimes, I mean, I know I am, and so I need my family and my people around me to be full of a love greater than my behavior

would necessarily draw out every moment. So I think that's why I would answer. Absolutely. I love that. Everyone that is Greg McEwen, you can check out his book, Essentialism, The Discipline, Because You Of Less. I also recommend you can listen to his podcast as well, Essentialism With Greg McEwen, and Fund Him Across Social Media. Greg, this has been awesome. Thank you so much.

It's been my pleasure. Thank you, Jay. This is a lot of fun, and I'm so glad we got to do this. I look forward to actually meeting you now, because we don't even live that far so we traveled we traveled 5,000 miles to meet each other so we worked we have to do at some point. Exactly, exactly I love that but thank you so much for coming on the show. Everyone who's listening today make sure you tag me and Greg on Instagram and let us know what was the top highlight from today's podcast for you.

What was the wisdom? What was the insight? What was the insight? What was the question that you're going to be taking forward into your life? Make sure you tag us both on Twitter, Instagram, and wherever else you're posting so that we can respond and interact and see what resonated with you all. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. Big thanks to Greg again, and I'll see you all soon. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.

Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care. I'm Dr. Romani, and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. podcast. Take good care. love bombing and their process of healing. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.