On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Gretchen Rubin ON: How Understanding Your Habits Allows You to Thrive in Work, Love and Life

Episode Date: January 11, 2021

You love On Purpose because it inspires your life. Have you tried Jay’s Genius workshops and meditations to access even deeper well-being? Learn more at https://shetty.cc/OnPurposeGenius Gretchen is an “Upholder”. She views inner and outer expectations as helpful and ease to maintain. An “Upholder” is one of the four “Rubin Tendencies” outlined in Gretchen Rubin’s book The Four Tendencies. On this episode of On Purpose with Jay Shetty, Jay talks with author and speaker Gretchen Rubin about how understanding your own personality tendency can help you become more successful at work, love and life. Grethcen is the vastly popular author of The Happiness Project, Better Than Before, and The Four Tendencies. Take her Four Tendencies Quiz and let Jay and Gretchen know on Instagram which one you relate to most! PS. Jay is a rebel. Four Tendencies Quiz!: https://quiz.gretchenrubin.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Conquer your New Year's resolution to be more productive with the Before Breakfast Podcast. In each bite-sized daily episode, time management and productivity expert, Laura Vandercam, teaches you how to make the most of your time, both at work and at home. These are the practical suggestions you need to get more done with your day. Just as lifting weights keeps our bodies strong as we age, learning new skills is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Eva Longoria and I'm Maite Gomes-Rachon. We're so excited to introduce you to our new

podcast hungry for history. On every episode we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Listen to Hungry for History on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life admits the challenges we face.

We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want now. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so excited for you to be listening

to the show right now. Thank you so much for tuning back in. It means the world to me that you come back every single week to listen, learn and grow. And I love inviting guests onto the show that I really believe are going to expand our minds, give us new insights, and especially people who help us structure the craziness that's going on. Now today's guest is going to do just that. I've been a long-term fan and follower of her work. Today's guest is Gretchen Ruben, the author of several books, including the New York Times best sellers, Outer Order, in a calm, better than before, the Happiness

Project, happier at home, and the four tendencies, which we'll be diving into today. She has an enormous readership in print and online, and her books have sold more than three and a half million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages. She makes frequent TV appearances and is an incredible speaker that have been following for a long time. She's also a CBS News contributor. Every Monday on CBS this morning, the final,

before we go, segment, features her solutions and tips for living a happier, healthier, more productive life. On her weekly podcast, Happier with Gretchen Ruben, which I really recommend you check out, she discusses good habits and happiness with her sister Elizabeth Krav. Gretchen started her career in law and now has gone on to become an incredible writer. Today, I'm excited to talk to her about learning about personality types, tendencies, and see how we can immediately and rapidly improve our life, our communication,

and our relationships. Gretchen Rubin, everyone. Gretchen, thank you for doing this. Oh, I'm so happy to be talking to you. I'm a huge fan of your work and we're interested in so many of the same things. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Thank you for having me. I know, I know, and I remember when this book came out, I was so excited to read it, because I'm so fascinated by personality types, tendencies, how we think styles, and how we're different. And the fact that I get to sit here with you today in Disectfit is a real treat, enjoy for me. But I wanted to stop more on the personal side. I actually wanted to start up by asking you what the last adventure you went on with your two daughters

considering it's been such an insular time and obviously it's an restrictive time. What's something you've done with your daughters recently? Oh my goodness. Well, I think our adventures have been very homebound adventures but I decided I wanted to learn how to play poker. I wanted to do something with the beginning, middle, and end.

And so we were like, we're gonna how to play poker. I wanted to do something with the beginning, middle, and end, and so we were like, we're getting to learn to play poker. My husband knew how to play, but my two daughters, and I did not know how to play. So I rallied them, and that was an adventure, and I realized I've been misunderstanding the plots of so many movies and books, because I had a complete misconception of how poker worked.

And so that's been kind of an adventure that we did under our own roof. I loved it. Tell me what your perception of poker was and how it differed from reality. Well, I thought it was like a long, complex game where there was a lot of like, you know, trading cards back and forth.

What did my daughter said? She said the thing that I don't like about poker is it doesn't feel like a game. It feels like the prey lewd to a different game. And I'm like, I don't usually like games. I think that's what't like about Poker is it doesn't feel like a game. It feels like the prelude to a different game. And I'm like, I don't usually like games. I think that's what I like about it. It's kind of, it just sort of unrolls and you deal with what you have and then you move on.

So I thought it was very, I think I thought it was more like bridge, whatever my conception of bridges, I also don't know how to play bridge. But I didn't realize like sort of what, it's sort of what, it's sort of an instant gratification game, more than some games. I love this line that you say,

really, really a stuck way every time you said it. You said that I rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. And I think that's such a powerful message. I rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. And I think that's such a powerful message and that one line has so much depth to it. Tell us about that journey of becoming a lawyer to then realize that it wasn't your path. Because I think a lot of our listeners

are either at that point on their path or getting to that point on their path. Some of them have already made the switch over and hearing about your journey, I think, will help a lot of people because this isn't what you set out to do in the beginning. Right. Well, I went to law school for the same reason. A lot of people go to law school because I was like, it's a great education and I'm getting research and writing and they'll keep my options open and I can always change my

mind later. My father's a really happy lawyer. He didn't put any pressure on me, but he was definitely an example of someone who loved being a lawyer. So I went for all the wrong reasons, which I called drift. So drift is the decision you make by not deciding or by doing the kind of path of least resistance. You get married because your friends are getting married, you become a doctor because your parents are doctors and you're good at science or you take a job because somebody offers you that job. So I just kind of dripped it into law. And the fact is I had a great experience a lot. I was editor in chief of the law review at Yale where I was. I was a clerk for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.

But while I was clerking for her, I got an idea for a book and at the time I didn't even know it was a book, I just was obsessed with an idea and I was and this happens to me all the time in my life, I'll get really interested in something and do a lot of research and writing. But this was, I was just doing so much research and so much writing and finally I thought, well, this is the way somebody would prepare to write a book. And then I thought, well, maybe I could write a book about this. And then I got, went to the bookstore and bought a book that was called something like how to write and sell your nonfiction book proposal. And I just followed the directions.

But as you say, it felt very risky, but I did say to myself, I would rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. And I have to give it a shot. I have to allow myself to either succeed or fail. Because if I don't try, I think I'm going to be haunted by this. And so I did.

I love that. I love how simple it is and how practical it is because I know that so many people, if you're listening or watching right now, that's often what it takes. You get a feeling and then you go into the research and then you follow the steps. And of course, there's so much more hard work and advice and everything are all the other ingredients that are really important but the methodology is usually aligned. It's very similar to wanting to break into this particular industry or whatever it may be. The methodology can be similar but it's the hard work. Tell us a bit about that side of Gretchen around the sort of pain or sacrifice

for some of the pressure that you felt because you were successful, you were doing well for yourself, you've obviously worked and there's so much sunk cost bias of the drift of like you work so hard to get into this incredible institution and you get so much respect for it and people think you're great at it and then all of a sudden you're starting out with like basically zero. It's almost like, you know, starting from the bottom again in an industry which you have no reputation in, you have no qualification in. Tell us about what that feels like and what was it that helped you kind of build your way up from that? Well, you're exactly right. Like I didn't have a clip.

I hadn't worked on the college newspaper or my, you know, I had not published a short story. Whereas in law, I had all these, you know, feathers in my cap. But if anything, I think, you know, lawyer turned right or something so boring. I was like, I even hated this help people that I was a lawyer because I thought that would make them, you know, run, run screaming for my proposal. But you know, I had something that at the time I didn't even think about, but then looking back and talking to other people who are similarly situated, I realized how fortunate I was. When it was how the people around me were so tolerance of me taking a risk and so encouraging. And I think sometimes the people around us out of the deepest love and the desire to protect us, they don't want to see us disappointed. They don't want to see us fail.

They don't want to see our feelings get hurt. They don't want to see us frustrated. They want us to be safe that there is no path of safety. I mean, if anything, if the last 10 years have shown us anything 15 years, there is no safe profession. And I was really lucky because my parents were like, great, you want to start all over from scratch?

After having just completed this long thing, which by the way, we paid for, fine, great, excellent, go for it. My husband was also switching from law to right, from law to finance. And so he was also going through a big switch. So we were doing that together. I remember there was a day when I had decided that I was going

to try to get an agent and he was going to try to get a job in finance and we had moved to New York City and the note came from the New York Bar Association. It was time for us to pair bar fees and these are not in consequential fees. Like, you have to pay a lot to remember the bar. And I said to my husband, are we going to pair bar fees?

And he said, are you kidding? No way. And I was like, okay, we are doing this. We are committed now. Now, now I find out you can always get re-admitted to the bar if you just like do a few things. But at the time, it felt like this massive step. So I was very fortunate that the people around me

were really encouraging. And my father said something to me that others, I repeated it because it was so meaningful to me. And people have said, oh, that sounds discouraging, but actually it was very encouraging. So I said to my father, okay, I had this idea for a book. I'm gonna write it. And he said, oh, that sounds discouraging, but actually it was very encouraging. So I said to my father, okay, I have this idea for a book. I'm gonna write it. And he said, well, look, Darlin,

you might not hit it out of the park the first time, but you'll get there. And people said, but that's telling him he didn't think you could succeed. I was like, no, it was him telling me, if you don't fail the first time, that doesn't mean you're a failure. You don't have to succeed right away

in order for this to have been the right decision. And that was very comforting to me because I was like, this could take time, you know, and here my father is reminding me, sometimes things take time, but that doesn't mean that they're the wrong thing to do. It's incredible, isn't it? You've just kind of hit a hit a point for me while I'm listening to you that it's amazing how how how old were you when you became a qualified like 25 is it? When I took the bar I was probably like 26 27. Right. Okay. So you took the bar 26 27 and if you think about it, you've been in education or in

the educational system since like three or four years old. Yeah. Which means to become a lawyer and which is an incredible profession, it took 23 to 24 years. And I think we almost forget that, that it took X-Mats, so I went to a cast business school where I studied management science, with a focus on behavior science, and I graduated at 21, 22, I was the oldest in my year, and it's like, people forget that that means I've spent 18 years to get this qualification, which means getting to something I didn't want took 18 to 24 years. But it's funny that we expect all of a sudden that when we do something we're passionate about, that it happens to happen on the first time.

And we forget that we spent 18 to 24 years trying to get good at something we didn't even love. Yet we expect ourselves to be perfect at something the day we try it and not realize that it may take sometimes another 10, 20, even 30 years in some case. Yeah, and I think sometimes that's the way that people deal with the fear of it is by saying, well, if it's not an immediate

success, then I know that I should give up. Because to struggle, to flail around, to make mistakes, to learn things the hard way, is tough. And it can be no fun. And so sometimes it feels good to be like, well, I tried it. And so now I learn my lesson instead of sort of staying in it and kind of allowing yourself to feel that frustration. It's funny because sometimes when people talk

about a happy life, they talk about it as if a happy life would be a life when you feel 10 on the 1 to 10 scale, 24 or 7. And that's not real, it's not even a good life. There's many reasons why we feel sad or we feel angry or we feel resentful or we feel outraged or we feel insecure. We feel scared. And these are all really important emotions. We can learn a lot from them.

And they can direct our behavior in really, really positive ways. But it's not always so fun to feel those emotions. Envy is a really powerful, helpful emotion, but it is no fun to feel it, but we can learn a lot from these negative emotions. Yeah, it's funny how we've created a viewpoint in our minds that we're almost broken if we have those emotions. Yeah, no, and they're extraordinarily important and useful.

Yeah, and we feel like we have to fix ourselves instead of feel that emotion and fixing can kind of lead to so much more pain because every time we fix something there's another thing and then there's another thing and it can be a never ending cycle. Tell us about how you discovered the four tendencies first was where you were like oh this is you know this is a really big idea that's going to help people. Well, I was sitting right where I'm sitting right now. I remember it. I mean, it hit me like a lightning bolt because it was something I had been struggling about for months, months and months, maybe years. And it would, there were all these, I had been writing a book called Better Than Before

that was all about habit change, how we make our breaker habits. And I've been noticing patterns in what people said and how they behaved and certain challenges that they faced that I couldn't make sense of, but somehow I intuited that they were somehow connected, but I couldn't understand the pattern. It was just my brain was melting trying to figure this out. And one of the most significant examples was when a friend said to me, you know, I would be happy, I know I would be happy if I exercised. And when I was at high school, I was on the track team and I never mistracked practice. So why can't I go running on my own now?

And I thought, I've heard so many people say something like that. What's going on? And you can think of a hundred different reasons maybe that could explain that. But what's really going on? And then there were certain, I would always say to people, how do you feel about New Year's resolutions? Because that's sort of a good habits-related quest to get people talking. And certain people would give me exactly the same answer.

They say, I would keep a habit or start a resolution whenever it made sense to me. I would not wait for January 1st, because January 1st is an arbitrary date. And they always said, arbitrary. And I was like, that's interesting because the arbitrariness never really bothered me. Then I was at a party and I was talking to a woman who I now know what tendency she is, but I was telling her I was writing a book about habits. She literally took a step back from me because she was so repelled by the idea of writing about. She was like, why would you write about such a terrible subject? I was like, I love the idea of

habits to be there, energizing and freeing. I love the subject of habits. And so one day I was sitting there and I was just thinking, these were just running through my mind and I was trying to understand how were they connected. And I realized that the idea was expectations. How do people respond to expectations? And when I got to the word expectations, I quickly realized that there are two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations like meeting a deadline or meeting a request from a friend and then there are inner expectations like my own desire to become a writer and write a book proposal. My own desire to keep an English resolution.

And I realized that when I looked at how people responded to outer and inner expectations, that's what made someone an upholder, a questioner, and a bliger or rebel. Of course, I didn't have those terms right away. It took me a long time to figure out the terms, but I saw the pattern, you know, and it was like a pattern of nature where everything fit in every example I could think of fit in some way.

So it felt like, you know, the periodic table of the elements where you're like, this just works. Like it's got that solidity that you get in nature and I was like, I think it was the most exciting moment of my intellectual life I have to say. Hey, it's Debbie Brown. in nature and I was like, I think it was the most exciting moment of my intellectual life. I have to say. Hey, it's Debbie Brown. And my podcast deeply well is a soft place to land on your wellness journey. I hold conscious conversations with leaders and radical healers and wellness and mental health

around topics that are meant to expand and support you on your journey. From guided meditations to deep conversations with some of the world's most gifted experts in self-care, trauma, psychology, spirituality, astrology, and even intimacy. Here is where you'll pick up the tools to live as your highest self. Make better choices. Heal and have more joy. My work is rooted in advanced meditation, metaphysics, spiritual psychology, energy healing, and trauma-informed practices. I believe that the more we heal and grow within ourselves, the more we are able to bring our creativity to life, and live our purpose, which leads to community impact and higher consciousness for all beings.

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I have a new podcast called Inner Cosmos on I Heart. I'm a neuroscientist and an author at Stanford University, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. On my new podcast, I'm going to explore the relationship between our brains and our experiences by tackling unusual questions, so we can better understand our lives and our realities.

Like, does time really run in slow motion when you're in a car accident? Or, can we create new senses for humans? Or, what does dreaming have to do with the rotation of the planet? So join me weekly to uncover how your brain Steers your behavior your perception and your reality Listen to intercosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts I'm Eva Longoria. I'm my Tecomas Rejoin. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture.

We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Corner flower. Both. Oh, you can't decide. I can't decide. I love both. You know, I'm a flower tortilla flower. Your team flower, you can't decide. I can't decide.

I love both. You know, I'm a flower tortilla flower. Your team flower. I'm team flower. I need a shirt. Team flower, team corn. Join us as we explore surprising and lesser known corners of Latinx culinary history and traditions.

I mean, these are these legends, right? Apparently, this guy Juan Mendes, he was making these tacos wrapped in these huge tortillas to keep it warm, and he was transporting them in Avurro, hence the name The Burritos. Listen to Hungary for history with Ivalongoria and Maitre Gomez Rejón as part of the Microtura podcast network available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I love it.

I really enjoy that same feeling of how psychology helps us group and understand ourselves. I think there's such a need for it. And as much as we understand that everyone is genuinely very unique and diverse and different, there are these kind of foundational principles and aspects that kind of keep us in certain groups with others. Tell us a bit about where do these tendencies come from?

Like are they manufactured through school and family? Or are they things that we develop? Where do they actually come from? Well, I really do believe the four tendencies are hardwired. Like I'm a big believer in the genetic roots of personality generally, and I think that you're in a folder, a questioner bled your rubble, you bring that into the world with you. Now, your culture is going to affect it like if you're a

questioner who's always questioning and you're in North Korea you may be learned to keep your mouth shut but if you're in Silicon Valley that might be one of your greatest assets, greatest strengths. And I think you know with time and experience we all learn how to manage our tendencies so that we at least we would hope that we would be able to gain from the strength of it and offset the weakness and the limitations of it because we sort of learn about ourselves and how to manage ourselves. But I do think it's, it is something that you're

born with, you're not one at 20 and one at 40, you're not one at work and one at home, these are consistent aspects of your nature. Yeah, absolutely. And do you find that sometimes that, I agree with you too. So I believe personality types of hardwired tune and the way we behave. Do you find though that sometimes, almost that because one type of personality is demanding to us from work,

that often you find people jostling between two in terms of pretending and acting as opposed to being. You know, I think actually it's really hard to be inconsistent with your tendency, that it's pretty, it's in that, and that that will either, either you'll steer yourself to a place where your tendency works for you or it's going to be a major source of conflict. And so maybe I should go through the tendencies. Yeah, please. Exactly. to a place where your tendency works for you or it's gonna be a major source of conflict. And so maybe I should go through the tendencies. Yeah, please, it's good.

Yeah. So there's a quiz that people wanna take a quiz that gives you an answer and spits out a report because some people get a kick out of that. If you just go to quiz.gritchenrubin.com, it's like 11 quizzes. Quiz.gritchenrubin.com. So then I love quizzes and I love you.

Yes, like 2.8 million people have taken this quiz. And it's free, so you can get your little report. But the fact is, most people know what they are, just from the brief description that I'll give right now. These are very blatant. These are not subtle tendencies. You'll know what you are. You'll know the people at your workplace,

people in your family, Game of Thrones characters, people in parks and recreation, TV shows, movies, if they're all around us. Anyway, so it looks at how you respond to outer and inner expectations. So again, outer is like a work deadline, inner is like a New Year's resolution. So a poll der is readily need outer and inner expectations. They want to do what others expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important.

And so their motto is discipline is my freedom. They want to execute and follow through. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they want justification, research, rational, reasons. They resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified.

So if something meets their own inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it their own inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So their motto is, I will comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And so this is my friend on the track team.

When she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up, she had no trouble showing up. But when she was just trying to go on her own, when it was her inner expectation, she struggled. And so the key thing for obligers to realize is if they want to meet an inner expectation, they have to create a system of outer expectation. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise more, take a class, exercise with a friend who's going to be annoyed if you don't show up, you know, think of your duty to be a role model to somebody else.

There's a million ways to create accountability once you realize that's what you need. So their motto is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, Rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, adder, and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. Like they won't sign up for a 10 a.m.

spin class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that it's on my calendar is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me, and neither can I. And obligers, the biggest tendency for both men and women, you either are an obligatory of many of lighters in your life, and rebel is the smallest tendency. It's conspicuous, but it's a small tendency. Okay, good to know.

Great, great foundation setting for all of those areas. Everyone upholds question as obligers or rebels, and Gretchen's already the quiz as well. quiz.gretchenroober.com is where you can take that quiz. So let's dive into all of them a bit more because I won't be able to understand how they connect. One of the big ones for me is what I find is how we think everyone, we have two kind of, we have the mirror belief where we think everyone thinks like us.

Oh 100% right. Yes. And then sometimes we run into the other extremists like, well, no one thinks like me and I think differently to that. 100% I completely agree with you. You're either in one or the other. No. Everyone is like me me or knowing is like me. Yes.

Which whereas with this framework, we start to understand that there are some people that think like me and there are some people that tell us about how to communicate with each type in a way so that they understand because I feel like that's where we really see this come alive. I know in my life where I've seen these tools become the most applicable is when I change the language

and the way I speak to certain people because that's the language that they understand and resonate with. Can you tell us a bit about those? Yes, and I'll tell you where you can see this play out. Not now because of the pandemic, but in general, if you go to the office kitchen and you look at the signage,

you will see all the tendencies like in full blossom because everybody is coming to it from their own perspective and they don't understand why people disagree. And you're exactly right. You can use the tendencies to really minimize conflict and procrastination and also just to show more compassion to yourself and more compassion to other people.

So I'll start with the blider because that's the biggest tendency. So blider's need accountability and a lot of times other tendencies like I'm in a holder is my tendency. We'll say things like, well, I don't want to be your babysitter. Do it whenever it's right for you. Like I don't want to have to check on you.

But a blider's do much better work when they do have accountability and when they do have deadlines and deliverables and check-ins. On the other hand, rebels don't like that. They don't like somebody looking over their shoulder. They don't like somebody checking in. They want to do what they want to do in their own way. And if they feel like you're telling them what to do, even if you're praising them for what you're doing, they may start to resist.

And so the kind of behavior that might be very effective and even necessary within a blighter could be counterproductive with a rebel. Like I know a rebel who was working as a consultant and he had a boss who said, this is a really hard problem. I don't know what to do. You've got the chops to deal with this.

Go away, figure it out in a month. If you run into roadblocks, let me know. Otherwise, come back to me with a solution. And he's like, that's how I do my best work. But to an obligator, they'd be like, what is happening? Like, I have no, like,

like, I need a little more structure. So blighter said to me, when I try to apply for a new job, I say, I work best with a tough boss, or you a tough demanding boss, because that's how I give my best work. Questioners need reasons. When I talk to health care professionals, they know this kind of hurts them very well. Well, they're like, you're telling me to walk a mile before breakfast every day. Why am I? Why be for breakfast? Why am I walking not running?

What if I take a bike? What if it's in the evening? I don't understand. And it's like they will get on board, but they have to have their questions answered. And if you say, because we've always done it this way, or because I'm the doctor and I say so, or because you said you would, or that's the law,

they're like, I don't understand. Like, this doesn't make any sense. And therefore, it's illegitimate. So with questioners, you have to take the time to take them through. And so, let's say you're in a work situation, you wanna think about, well, how can I, how can I give everybody what they need, but not burden everybody with what they need?

So, like, let's say you were gonna implement a new software program. You might say to a group, oh, you know, we're switching everybody with what they need. So like, let's say you are going to implement a new software program. You might say to a group, oh, you know, we're switching to a different software program. I'm going to give you a 20-minute presentation about why we're doing this. And then if you feel like you've heard enough, please feel free to return to your desk. If you would like to stay here and ask me further questions about why we feel like this is the right decision, I'm happy to stay here until you really understand why we think this

is the right course for our company. The questioners get their questions answered because by the way, they often will just silently not go along with what people tell them to do. And that can cause a lot of conflict and a lot of like, you know, inefficiency. They need to have their questions answered. But, you know, maybe the, maybe the obligers like whatever, that's not my problem. Like, just tell me what you want me to do And I got other stuff on my to-do list. So when you know the tendencies, you can think cleverly about how to give people what they need and not burden them with a lot of stuff they don't need.

Yeah, those are such great insights, whether it's workplace, whether it's family, you know, it's just, we often wonder why people aren't, you know, motivated, you know, where we are. Yes! How do you not get this? Like, motivated. Yes. Where we are. Yes. How do you know get this? Like, yes. Yes. No, and that's exactly what happens with the tendencies.

Everybody does what would work with their tendency. So questioners deluge people with research and articles and data and get very tired. Some people are like too many questions, too much information. Obligers, see, everybody's like, you keep saying this is important to you. I don't understand why you're not doing it. Like you keep saying you want to exercise. Why can't you keep your promise to yourself?

Rebels, people are like, why don't you ever do what I want you to do? And then a pollers, well, they get rigid. They're like, oh, I'm sorry, I have to go to bed at 10 p.m. every night. And I don't care if it's your anniversary party. I gotta go home because I'm going running at 8 a.m. You know what I mean?

So when you understand that other people have a different perspective, a lot of times it makes you, you might think, well, it's kind of annoying the way you are, but I'm not gonna take it personally. And I'm not gonna feel like you're a jerk. I just understand how you're bringing

a different perspective to it. I'm Dr. Romani, and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Narcissists are everywhere and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte, who was loved by the Tinder Swindler. The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help.

As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify the narcissists in your life. Each week you will hear stories from survivors who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1680s, a feisty opera singer burned down a nunnery and stole away with her secret lover.

In 1810, a pirate queen negotiated her cruiseway to total freedom, with all their loot. During World War II, a flirtatious gambling double agent helped keep D-Day a secret from the Germans. What do these stories have in common? They're all about real women who were left out of your history books. If you're tired of missing out, check out the Womanica podcast, a daily women's history podcast highlighting women you may not have heard of, but definitely should know about. I'm your host, Jenny Kaplan, and for me, diving into these stories is the best part of my

day. I learned something new about women from around the world and leave feeling amazed, inspired, and sometimes shocked. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Not too long ago, in the heart of the Amazon Rainforest, this explorer stumbled upon something that would change his life. I saw it and I saw, oh wow, this is a very unusual situation. It was cacao, the tree that gives us chocolate.

But this cacao was unlike anything experts had seen, or tasted. I've never wanted us to have a gun fight. I mean, you saw this tax of cash in our office. Chocolate sort of forms this vortex. It sucks you in. It's like I can be the queen of wild chocolate. We're all lost. It was madness. It was a game changer. People quit their jobs. They left their lives behind

so they could search for more of this stuff. I wanted to tell their stories, so I followed them deep into the jungle and it wasn't always pretty. Basically, this like disgruntled guy and his family surrounded the building arm with machetes. And we've heard all sorts of things that, you know, somebody got shot over this. Sometimes I think, oh, all this for a damn bar of chocolate. Listen to obsessions while chocolate on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Radio app, Apple podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast. In your perspective, what are the recommended occupations behind Saturday? Because I feel like often people may reflect them, they're like,

oh, wait a minute, I don't get to be this in my job or role or I'm not really playing this well. Tell us a bit about, yeah, what are the recommended jobs? Does it mean you can't be a job? How do you almost create a pathway to success knowing your tendency? Well, you know, there's so many qualities that make somebody good at a particular profession. I think that just about any tendency

could do just about any profession well. Like I could imagine being a lawyer as an appolder, as a questioner, as an obligator, Robble, I think they would all do that really well. But I also think that you're right that certain professions tend to value certain aspects of nature more highly. And so people tend to do well.

Like I would say that question asking professions, maybe scientists, journalists, might be particularly appealing to questioners because it just scratches that itch that they have. It kind of gives them permission. Rebels interestingly, often are entrepreneurs because they want to do things their own way. They don't want to take advice or direction from anybody else. They also often thrive in sales because with sales a lot of times it's

like, listen, whatever you got to do to make that sale. Like, okay, fine. And so they have that freedom. They often do better in positions where every day is different. Like I talked to somebody who is a restaurant manager. So he was like, I'm on the road all the time. Every day is different. I'm always with different people. Nobody really knows where I am. They're not taking, keeping track of me. There was a lot of freedom and choice

and that's really important to a rebel. However, some rebels are very attracted to areas of high-leg regulation, like the clergy, the military, the police, because they like to have something to resist. They need the energy of kind of pushing back. A poll der's tendeth rive in places where it's pretty clear what a success look like.

What are the rules? They tend not to like things where there's a lot of emphasis on flexibility and sudden shifts. I'm working for a visionary leader who every day has a different plan. It's like, as an poll der, I don't like working that way. Or where it's ambiguous what the rules are, or what success looks like.

They tend to make, want to make a plan and execute it. And questioners do not like to be in a place where things are not justified. Again, like a visionary leader, where you're supposed to just like do what that person wants without justification can be very annoying. And the blighters really need that adorability. Now, what's good is that usually the workplace

is kind of an easy place to get accountability, because you automatically have deadlines and deliverables in a boss and a team and clients and students and all that. So often, the blighters will do very well at work and then they don't understand why they can't do equally well at home. They don't understand what work

I have all this accountability, this architecture that's keeping me, you know, going, I, if I would create the same architecture for myself in my private life, I would also succeed with my private aims, but I don't understand that I need to figure out how to create that kind of accountability at home as well as in the office. And so for many of Lijder's, that's like a huge light bulb to understand, why can I keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself? It's like, that's just a thing that a Lijer's experience.

Like, there's no shame in that. There's no weakness in that. You just fix it. And then you're done. It's very simple. And it's not easy, but it's straightforward. How do you improve the natural weaknesses that come up in each and which weaknesses do you focus on because yeah, let's start there and then I'll follow up. I don't want to get asked like three questions in one.

Let's start there. No, and I think you're exactly right. This is the question because this is where we have the opportunity to grow, is like to see the weakness. So like my tendency is a holder. And so I would say the weakness is that you're often opportunity to grow, is to see the weakness. So my tendency is a polder. And so I would say the weaknesses that you often see with the polders is rigidity. Like we get it in our mind,

that something's supposed to happen a certain way, and it's very hard to get off of that. It's like, I remember I got invited to a wedding and they're like, the bus is leaving for the church at five, and then the bride's mother was like, no, we're actually leaving at 430. And I was like, well, see, that's not possible because I have a card.

And it's like, what? That kind of rigidity. And upholders can be kind of judgmental and cold because I'm like, hey, Jay, we both have our reports doing Friday and you want me to prove free to report, but I got to prove free to my own report. I don't have time to help you. To a depolder that seems right

because I'm meeting my inner expectation, but to other people it can seem cold. You need to make an effort to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a to a disrespectful or like not team players. If I'm a thin skin boss and you're asking me question after question, I start to think, you don't trust my judgment. You're questioning my authority. You're not a team player. I don't want to work for you. So, questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a way that don't make other people feel like they're on the stand,

you know, or that they're being grilled, or that there's cheekiness. You know, a lot of times questioner children get in trouble because they're like, well, why should I do this dumb book report? It's like, they're like, well, why should I do this dumb book report? It's like, they're really are saying, why should I do it dumb book report? So they need to do that.

And also, questioners can sometimes have analysis paralysis. This is when their desire for perfect information makes it hard to move forward and to make a decision. Because sometimes in this world, we can't wait for perfect information, right? And you can, what kind of email platforms should I use? I can research that for the next year. You know, at a certain point they have to say,

it's more efficient to decide and learn and experiment than to keep researching. For obligers, their weakness is, it's not even a weakness, it's just a fact. They need outer accountability and they have to get that outer accountability. And so whether that's taking a class or teaching a class or thinking of your duty

to your future self or your duty to be a role model or hiring a coach, you know, joining AA or Weight Watchers, all these things are ways to create at a accountability. Now, blighters have an interesting phenomenon where they can fall into a blighter rebellion. Yes, I'm gonna ask you about that. I'm glad you're on it. up. So they meet and expectations. And then suddenly they snap and they say,

this I will not do. It happens when they feel exploited or taken advantage of or unheard. And sometimes it's small. Like, I'm not going to enter your emails for two weeks. And sometimes it's huge. Like, I'm going to quit this job and walk out today. And it's done to kind of blow up a situation that's become

just kind of untenable for the obligatory. But it can have very serious reputational consequences because to the other tendencies, it doesn't make sense. I'm like, Jay, I asked you if you wanted to be in this committee, and you said, OK, so I don't understand why you're so mad. I don't understand that you're already on seven committees, and nobody else in this company has on more than two. And that's not fair fair and so now you're rebelling because that's

how a blood year bell you get started. And then, so for rebels, they can do whatever they want to do. And so with the rebel, you just can't tell them what to do. And that is hard. It can be frustrating to live or work with somebody who isn't going to do what you tell them to do. So if you're dealing with a rebel, you either want to remind them of how it fits into their identity.

You're doing this because you're an athlete. You're an animal lover. You're a musician. You're a poet. You're a writer. This is who you are, or you give them information consequences choice. Look, if you do your physical therapy, this happens.

If you don't do your physical therapy, that happens. Up to you. That's what tends to work best with rebels, because they want to, and then sometimes also, they will work with a challenge. Like, I know a guy who quit smoking because his 18-year-old son, no, guy, like, you could never quit smoking.

He's like, watch me. So he's smoking. That's great. I love that one. That's awesome. I think when I'm listening to all the descriptions, I definitely feel myself to be in the rebel category. I definitely find myself to be in the rebel category.

I definitely find myself to be in the rebel category. It's interesting that you brought out the both examples of the rebel category of the you spoke about the army and the clergy, but then you also just talked about entrepreneur, and it's interesting that obviously my life previously is living as a monk And now doing what I do today It's it's I like how you're able to I think we look at tendencies is so singular Like when you hear the word rebel You wouldn't necessarily think of monk, but I often talk about how monk life was like the ultimate rebellion

Yes, because it was literally saying, well, this version of the world doesn't work. Like this, this path is a real, I'm going to go find a completely extreme and different path. Well, and I'll tell you, if you want to do some rebel monk reading, Thomas Burton, who is a very famous cartoosian monk who lived several decades ago, read his journals because it is like diary of a rebel as a monk.

And it is really passing in exactly that thing. Like I'm gonna do the extreme unexpected thing. The thing people think I can't do. And I'm kind of going all the way and it's very fascinating how those, how those, another thing and maybe this will resonate with other parts of your career. I was talking to a guy who's a rebel who worked for,

I won't say the name of the company, but let's just say it's like a very big, famous tech company that's well known for being very controlling. And I said, how does a rebel like you work for a place like this? He's like, ah, they're working for me. I'm gonna start my own company. They're training me. I'm getting paid to learn how to do all this stuff

and then I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna start my own company So to him they were all working for him This is what he wanted and I was like bright. He's doing it in a rebel way But it's allowing him to get wonderful experience at a really really big prestigious company And but he did it in a rebel way. He found the rebel mindset that allowed him to do it That's what I love about what you're saying. It's all about the mindsets, not what you're externally doing. Yes. And the beauty of that is that no matter where you are, if you go all in on the mindset that you naturally are, the tendency that you actually are, then you're guaranteed to find in that space what you want. And so what you just said to me resonates so strongly with me because I, after

living as a monk, I was able to take sentia for a car. Yes. Exactly. That's what made me think of it. I'm a hundred thousand people. And the most amazing thing is that it was completely irreverent, so the company. And so it was the mindset that you had. I never, I don't think I have the, I don't think I have the element of thinking people work for me, but I definitely had that complete understanding of I'm here to learn, growing.

I'm actually carving out a career path in the company that is so rare and unique that isn't existed for 90% of people inside the company before. And I'm going to go all in on that. I don't believe I have to become the generalist. I don't believe I have to become what they want me to become. I believe I can create my own part. But see, and your example is perfect for why we need all of the tendencies in a workplace because it's very when you're hiring, of course you gravitate to people of your tendency because they think the way you think they have their same responses that you have, everything

seems very sensible. But think of how your company would have their same responses that you have, everything seems very sensible. But think of how your company would have lost out if they hadn't had your rebel entrepreneurial spirit and the way that you were able to see and be attracted to an opportunity that nobody else saw or wanted to pursue, right? Maybe for whatever reason they're like, oh, why would I take that risk? Why would I do that? Nobody's done that before. Whereas for you, that's like catnip.

For other people that maybe was a turn-off, but they needed you there because they needed what you could bring. So I think when you're hiring or you're putting together a team, you need to be very careful. Like, I've had people say to me, I only want to hire a blighters. Teach me how to screen for a blighter. And I'm like, a blighters are wonderful.

They're the rock of the world, but you don't want only a blighters. Because you need the questioners to be like, why the heck are we doing this? You need the rebels to be like, let's do something completely out of the world, but you don't want only a blighters because you need the questioners to be like, why the heck are we doing this? You need the rebels to be like, let's do something completely out of the box. You need the appolters who are like, we're gonna execute. We are gonna surpass,

and we have our eye on that excellence. They all bring so much to it. And I think that your history is a perfect example of why even somebody who's like, I don't like working with a rebel. It's like, well, suck it up because you need that. Yeah. No, that's fast. It's because as all these examples, you're giving me a making it more and more clear

to me why I'm definitely a rebel and it, and it, and it makes so much sense and it, and it completely, you know, it's, it's, it's almost like there's, there's a beautiful verse that I quote in my book, Think Like A Monk, but it comes from the Manu Smiti, and it says that, when you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you, and it's almost like, and when we're using a Dharma or purpose in the monk context, it very much applies to a tendency or a personality type. And what I mean by that is, it's almost like I feel like the work at world is constantly trying to get, or at least maybe this is just a rebel experience.

So you can tell me if it's just a rebel experience. Ah, I feel like I've always felt like everyone is always trying to get me to not be a rebel. I feel like I've always being trying to be poor. That's not gonna be every person I touch those that. So I'm not saying it's just me. But I've always felt that, and I've had people openly tell me that I had one executive who said to me, Jay, you know, when you were at Accenture

and you were dabbling in like social media and meditation and all that kind of stuff, he's just like, who's this kid? He doesn't know what he's doing. Like he's gonna ruin his career. And you know, he came up to me afterwards, probably earlier on in my media career. And I was just like,

Jay, this is how I fell about you when I first saw you. But it's really amazing that you proved me wrong and you found your own path. And I was just thinking that I've always come across that resistance, which was really, do you really want to do that? Like, is that something that all tendencies experience or is that something specifically a rublinx?

You know, I think that everybody feels that in their own way. And it's so I think questioners are like, who are these lemmings? Everybody is just going along without asking why? Like, who are you people? Like, this makes no sense. And the obligers are like, why is everybody telling me what to do? Why am I always the one saying yes? Why is, you know, why am I the one struggling with boundaries? Why can't other people just act

like civilized people and do their part? And I'm always the one picking up the slack. And then the rebels are like, why is everybody trying to tell me what to do? Just get out of my way and stuff talking to me. And I will do it. And so I think that, and then a poll der is of course, when you get a poll der together, we're just like, why can't anybody else get their stuff done? Like we just are all, you know. And so I do feel like there is that aspect to it where you sort of feel like everybody's experiencing it,

but people are experiencing kind of slightly different versions of it. Now, you're a rebel, but it's interesting because all the tendencies kind of tip in one direction or another because all the tendencies overlap. So there's rebels who tip to a bleiger and there's rebels who tip to question her. So rebels who tip to a bleiger

tend to have more of a spirit of resistance. They're like, you can't tell me what to do. And even if it's something I wanna do, if you tell me to do it, now I won't do it because I'm not gonna let you think that you're telling what to do. Then there are rebels who tip to question her and they're more like, I'm marching

to the beat of my own drummer. I don't care what you want me to do. I'm gonna do what I want you, wanna do. Whether you want me to do it or not, I don't care. I think you're a rebel who tips to question her, which by the way is what Steve Jobs was, which is like, I have my own path, doesn't really, like, you know what, I've got to do things my own way,

but if you weigh in, it's not gonna ignite the spirit of resistance to me one way or another, whereas rebels who tip to a blider really feel, like if somebody tells them what to do, it's like they just have to resist, and in a way that they become controlled in the negative. So then they have to manage that, I think a little bit. I think you're, I think you're a rebel who tips the question.

It's even more crazy because unless you really, and I don't know if you do know this, so I am like a huge Steve Jobs fan. Oh, well, there you go. Probably because you're like, everything he says makes so much sense. Literally, when you said that, I was just like, that's so funny because no one ever understands how I can be a Steve Jobsman.

And I'm fascinated by so much about him as a human, including his spiritual quest too. He spent a lot of time with monks and spiritual traditions and at the same time had so many other complexities in his life, of course, like we all do. But yeah, I would agree with you on that definition. I've never felt the resistance. I was bringing up the resistance because I think it's such an important thing to protect your tendency.

In the sense of, I feel like there's such a need for you to know truly what your tendency is so that you can go all in on that tendency with confidence. Because I think sometimes we doubt our tendencies. We doubt whether it's the right thing or we doubt whether it's a good thing. Tell us about that and looking at it from a good or bad thing. Sometimes we can train to believe that certain qualities we actually have as a tendency are actually negative in the world, but I just forget for us. Well, I think you're exactly right. It really saddens me when people say, well, I don't like my tendency. I want to be this tendency. How do I change?

The thing is, it's like, they're all have strengths, they all have weaknesses, they all include people who are wildly successful, and also people who are big losers. And really, when you look at the people who are the most successful, the happiest, the healthiest, they're really the people who have figured out how to harness the strengths of their tendencies the most effectively. And then also how to offset the limitations or the weaknesses of their tendencies most effectively. Now, when you see this a lot is with the blighters because of blighters, they say, well,

it's weak that I rely on outer accountability. I don't wanna have to do that. Why is it weak? It's a huge percentage of people need outer accountability. Just put it in there and then you can achieve your aim. I don't think that you need to transcend it or transform it. It's just embrace it and like you say, go with it. And then, because you're going with the kind of the natural

course of your stream, you're going with the kind of the natural course of your stream, your little boat is going to float much faster. And so obligers will often say that. Now sometimes rebels say that because they can really get frustrated with themselves if they haven't figured out how to get themselves to do what they want. So if you're an entrepreneur but you can't get yourself to do the drudge work, well, that's going to slow you down. Or maybe every time you decide that you're going to exercise every entrepreneur, but you can't get yourself to do the drudge work, well, that's going to slow you down. Or maybe every time you decide that you're going to exercise

every day, then you immediately refuse to do it. I know somebody who was like, I decided I was going to give up carbohydrates. And I went out the next day about a big loaf of sourdough bread because no one tells me what to do, including me. So part of it is figuring out, OK, well, how do I do it? And I've heard from so many rebels who are like, everybody told me that there was something wrong with me

that I wasn't a real grown-up. I couldn't get things done in the normal way. And now that I know who I am, I can embrace it and take pride in it and see the power of it, enormously powerful tendency. And I can set things up in a way that will allow me to succeed in my own way. And here's that thing about rebels. It's a lot of times people make it worse.

I mean, if you're the parent of a rebel, of the spouse of a rebel, or the boss of a rebel, you think, oh, I'll make a list. I'll give helpful, I'll make a star chart. I'll give helpful hints and reminders. No, every time you do that, you'll get this for the resistance. If you would just shut up and stay away,

then the rebel would be like, oh, I do need to apply for job or I do need to make my bed or I do want to get an A on the chem exam and they will do it. But people trying to be helpful often do exactly the wrong thing. And then again, then that creates the spiral of why can't I do the things that others tell me to do, I want to do and maybe that I I wanna do for myself. And yet, there's something that keeps tripping me up in my own head. Once you understand the pattern, it's very easy to say,

oh, oh, you can't use it to do list. A lot of rebels don't like to use to do list. This is a very common pattern. So what do you do? Here's these other things that rebels do to kind of get to the place that other people use to do list for. Or a blighters.

It's like people say, I don't understand it. I do really well on weight watchers. And then I say to myself, why would I pay to go? I know the whole routine. I don't need to do that. I don't need the time and the money. And then I get all the way back. And it's like, oh, because I need the accountability.

So maybe there's many ways to create that accountability. Once I realize that that's the key thing for me. So I have a lot more freedom to get where I want to go because I understand what I need. And there isn't a magic one size fits all solution. Like you say, we're all different and we need to take a different path, but we can all achieve our aim even if we go in different ways there. Yeah, that's a great answer. This is revelatory.

I feel like I'm getting a personal four tendencies master class. Oh, good. Yes. And I'm learning so much more about myself. And that's how I've always felt that I've become more confident about my tendency as life has gone on. I've exercised it. And I feel like often, even if we are a tendency,

we may not be exercising enough consciously enough, where we develop a confidence around it. No, I think you're exactly right. And I think probably it's because you figured out how to succeed. And so you have faith in yourself, because you're like, you know, I've figured things out in the past. I'll probably figure this out. I know what's work for me in the past

so I can figure out how to sort of replicate that. I think what happens for some people is they've tried and they've gotten discouraged. Or they see other people around them using a certain method or a certain process or a certain curriculum and having great success. And then they think, well, if my brother-in-law can do it, if my boss can do it, what's wrong with me? Instead of saying, well, that's something that works for my

brother-in-law. But that's, maybe I'll try it. It might be useful to think about if it worked for him, maybe it'll work for me. I love a data point of one. But maybe it's not. And I think knowing your tendency makes, you don't have to just throw spaghetti against the wall. You can sort of be, you can be and say this has like the kind of thing that would work for a questioner. Because there's a lot of justification. There's a lot of data here. This is really like answering all my questions. I feel like I can really get on board with this program. I love that. Yeah. And that's also what helps us have more compassion for other people. Exactly. Right. Like I think that that's what's missing in the world right now in so many areas where we kind of just don't realize that

For some people it's gonna take a year and for some people it's gonna take a day and for some people is gonna take a book and for some people is gonna take Over the trip or whatever it is like it's just It's it helps you put so much compassion because you go. Oh, I get it. Why I learned this quickly and you learn it slowly and you learn that quick. I learned it slowly. Well, I had this exact experience with my husband. So my husband's a questioner and I was filling out some boring form that we had to fill out as a couple. And that's why it's an ice cream marrito powder

because I'm the one that's just going to go ahead and get it done to get it off the list. And he had changed jobs recently so I didn't know his office address. So I called him and I said, hey, Jamie, what's your office address? And what did he say? Why do you want to know?

And I would have said years ago before I came up with this, I would have been like, why can't you just answer a simple question? Why is everything how to be a long-dron ant? I'm the one doing all this work. You're just slowing things down. Are you jerking my chain? Why are you so annoying? And now I'm like, he doesn't do anything unless he understands why. It's like he's like that with me. He's like

that with everybody. I might be annoyed by it, but I don't have to be hurt by it. It's a reflection of our relationship. And I know what should I have said. I should have said, Hey, Jamie, I feeling out that boring bureaucratic, what's your work address? And he would have told me no problem. He just needs to know why. And so again, it's like, I don't take it personally anymore. Because I know that's just that's just where he's coming from. And a lot of times I benefit from it. It's great for me in many ways to have a questioner

in my law. I'll say to him, I feel like I have to do this. Do I have to do this? And he'd be like, why would he do that? Like, you're right. I'm not going to do that. You know, it's very freeing for me to consult with him. Yeah, I love what you just said that.

You said, I'm allowed to be annoyed, but I've never hurt by it. And I think that's true. And eventually what you explained, you realized you're like, actually, I don't even need to be annoyed by it. It can actually help me. Yes. I think it's too refreshing perspective because half the things we argue about, whether it's with our spouses or with partners or girlfriends or with people in the workplace, is usually just because we're speaking in different tendencies. It's usually not that much deeper than that. And the problem is that we take it to be hurt and emotional connect and emotional distance. Tell me about is there a recommended partner or friendship? It's type. Like, should you marry someone

or should you, obviously you've taught us how we can adapt, but is there a recommended friend type or being a proper or a married? Well, here's the most striking pattern. If there is, and you can tell me if this is true for you, when you have a rebel who's paired up, either in romance or in a work life, like a founding team. If one person is a rebel,

almost always the other person is an obliger. Now, there are exceptions, and they usually, it's funny, the exceptions themselves fall into very distinct categories. But almost always if there's a rebel, they're paired up with an obliger. Because questioners and upholders tend not to work well with rebels,

but obligers do work well with rebels, but obligers do work well with rebels. Actually, obligers are the type O appropriately. They are the ones that team up the most easily with all other three tendencies, which is good. They're the biggest tendency and they do the best with the other three. A pollers tend to do very well with questioners. I'm an upholder married to a question, and that tends to be very consistent. Again, they can work with the blooders,

they can work with rubbles. But rubbles and appolders are kind of the two opposite. They're the most extreme personality types. They tend not to work well together, because just what they value is so different. So like maybe as a rebel you experience this, there's a lot of value on spontaneity. There's a lot of value.

Let's keep things open. Let's let things play out. Let's see how we feel. As an appolder, I put no value on spontaneity. There's a lot of value. Let's let's keep things open. Let's let things play out. Let's see how we feel As a double as a pullter, I put no value on spontaneity. I would have a plan for everything I just like to live that way Well, that's hard for us to work together because I'm trying to plan out six months and you're trying to keep our days open Or you might like have a vision and be like let's rethink the priorities of this company And I'm like, but I've made you know, I've have such an extensive execution plan.

It's distressing to me to like throw it all away, whereas you find that like very liberating and freeing and creative, I find it creative to dig deep and execute over the long term. So it's not that they can't, but it's often that they like to work in such different ways that they end up just not enjoying working with each other as much. In a big team, you could you could have it, but if it's just like a pair, it can be hard.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's that's a really good to know, I think, for people because, you know, obviously me and Gretchen are not sitting here saying don't marry someone who's not right. No, no, there are many, many exceptions. Oh, great. I'll break up with someone. Yeah. That's all right. We're not saying that at all, but you've got to know what you're working with, whether you're dating or already married, you've got to know what to adapt to. The great example that you gave Gretchen about you and your husband having a conversation,

it can be so beneficial actually. And if we don't just look at that difference as emotional and I think sometimes we would take it to personally, to emotionally, you don't realize that it's a tendency. Well, like I collaborate with a lot of rebels and believe me whenever I write an email, it's like, if this works for you, if this sounds fun, whenever it's convenient for you,

something that you could do, if you thought it would help you, is this, because I know, I don't, I want them to be like, this sounds fun, this works for me, this gets me what I want. I will do it in my own way. I don't want to accidentally push their buttons by like, could you please do this by Friday, because they're gonna be like, yeah, I don't want to do it by Friday,

because like, I don't want to get in their way or my way. So it's, everything is the same. I just, I just't want to do it by Friday because like I don't want to get in their way or my way. So it's, everything is the same. I just be, I just am careful to frame it in the way that will be sweet to their ears. It's, it's totally easy to do. Once I know that that's the way to communicate more effectively and that's through everybody in our lives. Yeah, how does it work in terms of conflict in relationship?

So if there's a conflict in a relationship, do some of these tendencies, in all the tendencies, do we tend to close off or open up? Is it different? How does it work for the different tendencies? Well, one point of conflict that comes up, sometimes with the blighters, is the other tendencies will say, why do you keep talking about this and you don't follow through? And they get very kind of exasperated.

You keep saying you want to exercise, you say you want to switch careers, you say you want to run a novel in your free time, do it, don't do it, I don't care. But I don't like seeing you just keep talking about it. And so they get frustrated and they don't understand. Now sometimes often, sweethearts don't make good accountability partners. And it's also very burdensome to be an accountability partner.

That's why many people hire coaches. And you know, people like, you know, you hire somebody to do it. So they're trained at it and they're really good at it. But if you understand that's what's necessary, a lot of times again, the emotion drains out of it. And you're like, well, let's get you what you need. Instead of like, why am I getting frustrated with you

or feeling like you're somehow, like not keeping your promises to yourself? With questionnaires, the conflict often comes from them feeling like people are asking the new things that are arbitrary. So here's an example, like somebody's like, if I said to my husband, like, we don't have a suburban house,

but like a friend of mine was just saying, she said her husband, let's clean out the basement this weekend. And he's like, we never used the basement. Why would we clean it out? It's like, that just doesn't make any sense to him. But if she said something a lot, and then she gets irritated, because he'll never do it, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But if she said, oh, we're having company come in two weeks and their kids need someplace to sleep. If we clean out the basement, they can have a whole room to themselves. Let's do it by, you know, by the time they come. It's like, I see why I'm being asked to do this, and I see their timeline, and this makes sense to me. You're going to have a lot less conflict if you present the reasons. And then with the rubble again, it's like a lot of times it's because I'm trying to tell you what to do. And I mean, I, we are not the happier podcast. We had two people call in with questions like in the same two weeks where

they had sweethearts who needed to look for jobs. One guy had been laid off and one guy was moving to a new city to be with his girlfriend. And these one was a question and one was a white shirt. They're like, what do I do to help my boyfriend look for a job? It's like, nothing. These guys know they need a job. Like if you make a list and remind them, make a list of phone numbers, circle things in the newspaper, you're going to ignite that's fear of resistance.

Let them do it in their own way. They got this. Just let them do it in their own way. Now it might not be your way. This is like when someone decides to clean out the basement at 2 o'clock in the morning because that's what they feel like. Don't get in their way. Let them do it when they want to.

Spontaneity, when they feel like it their choice, their freedom. But once you recognize that and what a high value it is, you can let the rubble do it. I love that. That's amazing. I actually love that. Yeah, no, I really believe everyone needs to, at some point dive deep into this work in their life,

because it can solve so many issues in so many areas of my life, simply by deeply understanding people and wanting to communicate with them in a way that actually, and that is tool, it's not to take advantage of someone, it's to deeply speak to someone's wiring in their heart without making it so difficult to understand someone. And I hear this a lot from doctors and nurses, physical therapists, occupational therapists, people like that, where they do want to connect with their patients. They want so much to be helpful, to be of service, to help people get out of pain and get towards good health. And they're very frustrated because they know that in many cases they are not successfully communicating and reaching those patients.

And so they're very excited to have a tool, where as you say, it's not about manipulation, it's not about tricking somebody. It's about speaking in a way that it's gonna strike a cord with them in a way that's going to allow their actions to follow their thoughts. You write about this all the time. How do we put our values and ideas into the world? That's not always as easy as it sounds. And so this is a way to kind of make that match more effective.

more effective. Ressa, this has been amazing. I love this conversation. It's so great. It's something that I get a real personal... It's probably one of my favorite topics in the world, actually, because it's just so... I feel like this understanding has made the biggest impact on where I am today in how I feel,

because in the, in the, in the monk teaching, it's called Dharma and the psychopropyl nature is called Dharma. And that's, that's what I studied. And, and when you look at the four tendencies, it's so brilliantly explained and I love the detail you go into of really helping someone understand which one they are. So anyone who's listening and watching,

I highly recommend the four tendencies is a great way of getting some real self awareness, take the quiz, and really dive into the people that you spend the most time within your life at work, at home, at least start by knowing theirs. You don't need to walk around with a four tendency radar, like, Gretchen would know anyone she meets in two seconds and we'll know what they are. You may not be at that stage and you may not want to, but it's really important that you understand

your family and your work environment. Like, if you know there's two environments and you know their tendencies, it's gonna make a world of difference. I know that we've been using these tools in our recruitment as well. So I use a lot of these tools in recruiting people onto my teams

because I want to build like Gretchen said, a complete holistic team where we have different people allowing us and when I'm speaking at companies, and if we ever use tools like this, we're always looking at like, you wanna accompany that ideally has a equal split rather than be too far off in one or another. So Gretchen, this is amazing.

I wanna ask you your final five. These are usually questions that are answered in one word or one sentence. I'm asking you some really questions I'm curious about. You may go slightly over. The final five will then be concise, but I give you permission in advance to not help that I'm asking someone really curious about. Okay, so these are all picked up from things you've said.

I love this piece of advice. I'm intrigued by it. You've said it's better to have frequent boring mundane communication than to save it up. I, before I understood what you meant by that, it took me a while to wrap my head around it, but I love your explanations. Can you explain why? When we talk to people often, we have a lot to say and we don't want to talk to them very often, we're sort of like, I'm fine. How are you? I am also fine. And so, like, these little mundane details of our lives help us stay connected and kind of keep our relationships more alive. Love it. Great answer. So anyone who's wondering whether you should talk to someone regularly,

or not as regularly, regularly will be better. Second question, I absolutely love the saying that you said, the days are long, but the years are short. Expand on that, friends. I think of everything that I've ever written in my whole life. I did a little video about a story called The Days or Long with the Years or Short. And it just really resonates with people. You know, sometimes getting for morning to night,

it feels like an eternity. But then you're like, where did Mego? Where did 2019 go? Especially, I think, for the parents of young children, the days can seem very long, but the years seem very short. I love that. Yeah, it's such a beautiful reminder for us as well. And yeah, it has so much meaning to I love it. Okay,

question number three, what are some of the common small challenges you've heard? People made in their lives that significantly boosted their overall happiness and I love the one minute rule that you speak about. Oh, yeah, the one minute rule is that anything you can do in less than a minute you do without delay. So if you can hang up a coat or put a dish in the dishwasher or file something, you do it and that gets rid of kind of the scum on the clutter of life. Another quick lift if you need it is to jump up and down. Do jumping jacks, run down the stairs, on the clutter of life. Another quick lift, if you need it, is to jump up and down. Do jumping jacks, run down the stairs, jump over a puddle. It's quick, it's lively, it's kind of childlike. And another one of the easiest, quickest ways to intervene in your mood is to listen to one of your favorite upbeat songs. It's just one of the quickest ways to give yourself a boost.

Another, okay, awesome question a boost. I love it. Okay. Awesome. Question number four. I know you love children's books. Yes. I've heard that reading them before bed is a great way to unwind. I've actually been reading.

My friends have a six month old, and I go over once a week or something, and I read a bedtime story. Ah. And it is booked. And we sit there and we lie on our backs on the floor, and I read it, and he loves like, he's six months old. he loves like grabbing the book and and it's really beautiful. I mean children books is just written so beautifully and I you know I don't have a child yet but I'm definitely connected with them so I resonate with you. Tell us some of the

best children books you recognize. Do you mean picture books or do you mean like chapter books? Yeah yeah yeah picture books or anything. Oh okay. So picture books. do you mean like chapter books? Yeah, yeah, yeah, picture books anything. Okay. So picture books I love the lonely doll. I love the seven silly eaters good night moon. Of course crazy strange where the wild things are oh Yeah Mr. Bit up with Mr. Rabbit and the and the gift bit up with Mr. Rabbit and the gift. Yeah, those are picture books. And then for chapter books, if you haven't read children's literature lately, you are missing

out because there are so many great books. You should read his dark materials, the Hunger Games is amazing by Suzanne Collins. I really, I can't even like my mind is staggering because I love children's literature so much. There's so much great stuff right now. Jason Reynolds is a fantastic writer. He's writing today, won every kind of award, Jacqueline Woodson. Anyway, there's so many great writers. Amazing. I love it. of a word, Jacqueline Woodson. Anyway, there's so many great writers.

Amazing, I love it. And fifth and final question, have heard you say people know they don't want what they have, but they don't know what they want. Have you heard, do you remember saying this? Yes, and I mean, it's hard. I mean, I think you raised this at the beginning of the conversation, which is sometimes

we don't know ourselves. We think we know ourselves, but we know what other people expect from us, or we know what we wish we expected from ourselves. And so sometimes you, or you know what you don't want, but you don't know what you do want. And back to my career transition, I feel really lucky because I wanted to write a book so desperately. It was like the Death Star pulling me in its tractor beam.

It was very clear to me what I wanted. Where's a lot of times when people are making a career shift, they know what they don't want, but they haven't figured out what they do want. And that's when you have to like read what colors you're parachute and like do all that soul searching. And that's painful and hard, because people know what they don't want,

but they don't know what they do on. Thank you, Bradson, and that's your final five. Thank you for being on purpose. Everyone has been listening. Go and grab a copy of the four tendencies. If you enjoyed this conversation, keep listening to on purpose and make sure you tag me and Gretchen on Instagram with your biggest insights. Anything that she shared or said that really resonated or connected with you, please do tag

us. I love seeing one of the messages that you're really getting from these podcasts. I'm sure she'll be happy to see them as well. And keep coming back to Ongukas. Thank you so much. Great to meet you. Thank you for coming. Thank you. It's so fun to talk to you. I so appreciate it. This podcast was produced by Dust Light Productions. Our executive producer from Dust Light is Misha Yusuf. Our senior producer is Julianna Bradley.

Our associate producer is Jacqueline Castillo. Valentino Rivera is our engineer. Our music is from Blue Dot Sessions and special thanks to Rachel Garcia, the Dust Light development What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio appio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of

the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Lewis Hamilton and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon.

The therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care.

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