On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Idina Menzel ON: How to Be Present without Self Judgment or Criticism & The Importance of Consistency to Achieve Your Goals

Episode Date: September 15, 2023

What was your biggest dream as a child? Growing up, did you have the best environment to pursue these dreams? Or did you need to set them aside for a different purpose in life? Today, Jay sits down with the iconic voice behind Elsa from the film Frozen, Idina Menzel. Idina's other well-known character is Elphaba in the original Broadway production of the musical "Wicked." She co-authored the children's book, Loud Mouse. One of the big takeaways here is how our dreams and ambitions are like living entities, always changing and growing, just like we are. As we navigate life's various chapters, our goals shift in response to what matters most to us. It's a reminder that it's perfectly okay for our dreams to evolve and expand as we do. Idina has a way of nudging us to appreciate diverse viewpoints and experiences. The podcast encourages us to embrace this and to seek understanding and connection with others. There's a powerful message about the strength in being open, vulnerable, and compassionate in a world that can sometimes be a bit harsh.  In this interview, you’ll learn: How our dreams evolve throughout the years How to navigate challenges that come our way How to be less self-absorbed in certain situations Why understanding someone has limitations How to allow your authentic voice to be heard Ultimately, this conversation is like a friendly nudge to live life on our terms, free from the weight of other people's judgments. It's an invitation to explore our ever-changing perspectives, to find strength in resilience, and to chase our passions with fervor. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:31 What keeps you going these days? 06:00 When you start seeing things differently through a different lens 08:43 The story of a young girl learning her way with music through experience 12:23 How ambition and dreams can evolve through the years 16:07 The long developmental process of musical shows 19:46 The mission was to show up and never miss a show 23:39 How do you find perspective and become less self-absorbed? 26:14 How do you stay present in the moment? 31:09 How to communicate through differences with parents and children    35:55 Idina wrote a children’s book that allows children to be more themselves! 40:39 How do you allow your authentic voice to be heard? 41:54 What it is like to revisit a character you played years later 44:27 Why it is challenging to believe we can walk in someone else’s shoes  46:37 Stop worrying about what other people think and live your own life Episode Resources: Idina Menzel | Website Idina Menzel | Instagram Idina Menzel | YouTube Idina Menzel | Facebook Idina Menzel | TikTok Loud Mouse Drama Queen Digital Album Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes and figure out our lives.

But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Jermis Beg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The Psychology of Your 20s, hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My next guest is Adina Menzel. She has a new album called Drama Queen and a children's book called Proud Mouse Out September 12th.

Make sure to watch and read. My son is mixed. I don't want my whiteness to be something that I know people say you're the mom. He's going to love you, but there's going to be things that I can't understand for him because I'm not in his skin. And as he's getting older, he's becoming more and more aware of the society that he lives in and the violence, the racism. And I just want to be someone he can come to, you know.

The best selling author in the post. The number one health and wellness podcast. I'm in purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose. I am so grateful for our community here at the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. And I know that you're always looking for new stories, new ideas, new things to bring into your life so that you can feel better, feel happier, feel healthier and feel healed. And today I'm talking to a guest who has a really unique experience of life.

And that's what I love. I love learning about people who've come from different backgrounds, different walks of life, taken different parts. And I'm speaking to all of you about Idina Menzel, a powerhouse multi-hyphenate, a singer, an actress in film and TV, a songwriter, a Broadway star, and a philanthropist. And I mean, her accolades are absolutely unbelievable. Idina rose to fame for her role as Maureen

in the popular Broadway musical Rent, and her career took off when she won a Tony Award for her role as Elfabut, the wicked witch of the West in the musical Wicked. If you haven't seen it, it's phenomenal. I can't believe you haven't seen it, yeah. Edina's voice can be heard as Elsa and Disney's Oscar winning Frozen, the second highest grossing animated film of all time with more than $1.2 billion in worldwide box office

revenue. And right now, she's out talking about her children's book, Loud Mouse, which we'll be hearing about today as well. Please welcome to the show, Adina Menzel. And thank you for doing this. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's so grateful to meet you. And so happy to get to spend this time with you.

I know you've had a long day. We were just talking about, you've been up since 4 a.m. Yeah, and I'm on the LA time. So that's what it was like, because I couldn't get to bed with my jet lag. So I'm running on empty, but I'm happy to be here. I've just come in as well three days ago, and so I know what that feels like. But I guess the question is, you've been up since 4 a.m. You've been doing so much work today.

What drives you? What motivates you? What keeps you going? My son, my 13 year old son, Walker, I think that's the main driving force. I mean, obviously creativity and my artistic soul, my desire to keep creating and finding new ways to express myself. But if I'm being completely honest, it's, you know, it's how can I be a better mom?

How, what am I doing today to help my son, you know, my relationship with my husband? I think it's because I've turned 50 now. And the ambition starts to wane a little bit when you have a little success, too. Like, start to feel OK. Like I can afford to pay for his schooling. And I can pay my mortgage.

And I'm doing wonderful things and working with terrific people. And so I can relax a little bit. When I was younger, I was just pounding the pavement so hard, you know, and really, I believed in myself, but I was just really working hard and playing gigs everywhere and trying to get noticed. And so at this age, it starts to, you know, you go, okay, everything's going to be okay, you know. And so you want to give a lot of energy to your marriage, to your child. And that's why this children's book is, I guess, is sort of an organic step in

the evolution of things, you know. Because people always ask me to do one, you know. Because I guess my trajectory of characters and this sort of alphabas and elses and these amazing young women that have all this incredible power and are role models for kids and it's all about embracing that power and harnessing it and not being afraid to send it out into the world.

There's for some reason, the universe has thrown these things my way. I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg. Is it me choosing these somehow, even though they were jobs I needed and I had auditioned for them. So I think that there's, in the tradition of those characters, I felt that I wanted to write a children's book that was about really me having those very similar experiences when I was little and really believing in myself at a young age, really recognizing that I had something special to offer, but also being hesitant to share it out of fear of being alienated, being disliked, feeling like I was calling too much attention to myself.

How much space can we take up in the world? What's allowed, you know, especially as women, I think, we're always sort of second-guessing ourselves. So that's what the book's about, but that's what I do with, as a grown-up, too, every day. It's still second-guessing when I walk in a room, how much space I can take up, how big my voice is literally and metaphorically. Wow.

And how do you think your view has changed of what you view as important from that time when you were like grinding and hustling and busy working hard to now having a bit more, I guess, structure and peace and a bit of arrival feeling if that makes sense. The desperation isn't there. You know, it doesn't mean that I'm not, I'm not still dreaming and I'm, there's not things that I, there are still things I want. There's a lot of things that I find still elusive to me. We could talk about that.

But so I still have ambition, but the fear of literally not being able to pay my rent or not making good on my commitment to myself as a young girl of working hard to have my dream come true. My dreams have come true. I perform on a stage. I perform in all these incredible venues for thousands of people and Disney prints us queen for God's sakes, you know. So, but you know, the more you get, the more you want. And you see things differently through different, different lens when you become a mom, really.

Yeah, I was, two things you hit there, which I read about you and I was looking for this interview. You said, you have many dreams, but then one of the dreams I've heard you've had is your teeth falling out. I know that's a different time, different time of a dream. That's not the kind of dream. That's my nightmare. Have you ever looked into all the meanings behind it? Yeah, it's all about anxiety. Have you ever found a meaning that sits well with you that gives you some comfort in life?

No, not that dream. It's always such anxiety. And that's what I've read about it. And I also usually the teeth come out and you can hear the sound of them flinking against the sink. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

I have that one and I have one that I never actually graduated college, but I'm too credit short. I have it so much that I still wake up with a feeling of like, why do I feel unsettled? Oh, you think you didn't graduate? I'll check it. Wait. No, I was there. I got my diploma. That's a pleasure. Yeah. I get the dream of like I have another exam again.

I think that's the one that sets me up. I'm like, no, I don't want to do another exam. I've done enough exams in my life. But no, that's interesting. And yeah, that lack of control. I do another exam, I've done enough exams in my life. But that's interesting. And yeah, that lack of control. I think that's what I've seen it as well. Like when you're losing a teeth and a dream, it's like feeling like the anxiety

or are losing control. And then I have cracked a tooth on a bagel cause I was like, my nightmare's coming true. I'm like, you know, whatever. Yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, that's a hard big one. Yeah, that's it. And hearing the teeth, that sounds, I'm sounds make me very like, you know, whatever. Yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, that's a hard thing. Yeah, that's it. And hearing the teeth, that sounds,

I'm sounds make me very, like, I know. I feel like sounds are tough. And then also with working hard, I mean, before this, you used to, well, not before this, a long time ago, you used to perform at Bermitzfers and weddings. Which one did you prefer?

What's the other one? What's the other one? Well, I went through different phases. When I was 15 years old, my parents divorced. And I wanted to get a job to kind of help out that your dad was supporting two households. And my mom started dating this guy who was really sweet and saw a talent in me.

And he knew some guy that had a wedding band out in Long Island and he said, you should audition, I said, I don't know enough songs, you know. And we lied about my age because we didn't want them to worry those kids. We said I was 18, like that's so old. And I started learning a bunch of songs. I put on kind of a sludgy dress and I went in and I sang what I sang back. I'm dating myself but I sang evergreen like a barbra stris and song and I sang or walking on sunshine or I remember I sang a flash dance song. Anyway and I got the job and I started working all the time weddings for a mids visit. It didn't matter. They all can be bad because nobody's listening. They can be really wonderful, especially for a young girl

becoming trying to figure out my identity as a vocalist, having to learn so many kinds of genres of music, like Motown, Pop, Rock, Jazz. So I really, that was kind of my education, music. And there's a lot of incredible musicians that do it as a side gig just to make extra money. So the good thing about people not listening is you can try a lot of it. And one of my favorite times would be when they say, like, ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats, your salad is being served. And then the band would take a break except for me and like

the keyboard player. And then we'd sing, you know, a Billie Holiday tune or Elif, it's sterile. And then at a young age, I learned what melody is, and I would listen to them on the car ride to the gig. And then I'd learn what I was contributing to it and how to improvise and where were my instincts, my impulses as a singer. And so I actually still identify with, I still see myself as that girl, the chick gig singer, a wedding singer.

And it's been so much longer than I've not been that, than I was, but I still just feel like that's who I am. When I'm on stage, it could be at Madison Square Garden. I have still with my band, I want to jam. I'm okay with spontaneity. You walk on, I was 15 years old and they call it tune. You have to call it in the right key. You have to know the lyrics. If you don't know the tune, you have to call it in the right key, you have to know the lyrics.

If you don't know the lyrics, you tape, now they have iPads, but I would pull out a little roll it X of cheese and I tape them to the mic and I'd sing the songs. Like I said, nobody's paying attention to the fans, so they don't see. But I still identify as that person. And no matter what, when I go to a wet,

someone else is wetting or barmits, or when I get paid to a lot of money to come be a guest to somebody's and sing a couple songs. And I'm really taking back. So I'm like, I used to make a hundred bucks for the night to sing. And then I'm up there, and I still feel like that unknown girl just trying to do a great job and get the song done. That's amazing. That's incredible. What are the next steps?

When you hear about that experience that you're in and I am doing a bit of biography charting because I do find it fascinating. You look at the stage you're on today and you look back there and you're like, well, that's a long, long way. And I think it's easy externally to be like, oh yeah, there was these line of great things that happened and it took off. But what's the next step from that? Where? Where do you, pretty much immediately, after you're doing that, I'm guessing is that building your confidence? Is it just allowing you to pay for a few things on the side?

Like, what is that doing for your creative career? Yeah, well, to be working singer, to make a living as a singer, especially at that age was a source of deep pride for me. Then, as I kept getting rejected at auditions, I was writing my own music, I was trying to get a record deal, nothing was happening.

Now I'm doing it six, seven years Now I'm getting a little bit annoyed. You're seeing a wedding and permits for like six, seven years Yeah, go in and out depending when I was at college or when 10YU and certain Semesters it was rough, but then other semesters I could pick up gigs and so Then I would be a little bit more. I like to say, disgruntled. And I'd stand and I think, if I'm doing this one, I'm 30. You know, I'm quitting the business. And I get in trouble to ban the ban leader would say, you have an attitude today.

And I'd be thinking, well, it's because I just, I'm going to be something one day. You know, I'm going to get out of here. So I forget what you're question. Well, no, my question is that I do. What was the next thing? No, that's like, you're good. You're doing exactly what it's asking. That idea that you're going to auditions,

what were you auditioning for? Like, what was important to you at that time? Yeah, so when I was a little girl, my parents took me and I grew up in Long Island. They took me into the city to see Broadway shows. I wanted to be on Broadway. Then when I started doing all these weddings and seeing all this kinds of music,

I started writing my own music and my tastes evolved with the kind of music that I wanted to sing. And so then I wanted my own record, I wanted to make albums. And so I would now also put rock bands together and I go play at CBGB's and at the bitter end, down the village. And so that's started to be the thing that I wanted.

And then I finally, at, finally, at 25, I got the original cast of Rent, which was the big rock musical of the time, but it was theater, but it was rock. And so that started me on this sort of path of kind of straddling both worlds, always, which back then, in the 90s, it was not, it was frowned upon to try to go from theater to legitimate rock, rock kind of career. Now everyone can do everything. Everyone can do everything. But back then, if you're a movie star, you'd enter TV.

And if you were a theater person, you weren't going to be, people wouldn't believe you as a rock star. But here I was, kind of, in both. And so I did that dance for a long time. And now you get to the point where you've done so many different things and so many, I put out so many kinds of albums and that I can get on stage and I don't care that I'm one particular style because now my body of work is who I am. But it's taking me all that time to feel like I have a story and identity because back then

it was like, but who are you? What kind of singer are you? What are you going to be? What do you represent? And I said, well, I can do jazz and I can do motel and I can do Madonna and Whitney Houston and Rock and Roll and so my versatility was my curse. Wow. And what were you doing by age 30?

Because you said, if I'm doing this by 30, I'm going to quit. What were you actually doing when you were doing? I was in a workshop of wicked. Okay. So it was hired to develop wicked, which was a five year process. And after every workshop of that, I always thought they were gonna replace me

with someone more famous or something. And so I always thought I was gonna get fired. So the fact that I actually got to the Gershwin theater when I was, I don't know, 32, I was like, woof, you know, you always think you're gonna get fired in this business. So when they bring you into develop and part of my ignorance, you know, so they're bringing you into develops

and what does that actually mean? Does that mean you might make it into the show or you're in the behind the scenes? They say that they're looking for their immune system. And so they'd like to find the people that they are writing for it because the composers are writing and for your voice and which is like the greatest honor.

That was rent was like that as well. And most of the things I do because they're original musicals, they go through these long developmental processes which I love. I love standing in a piano and an incredibly talented composer, like Steven Schwartz or Tom Kid or Jonathan Larson, and they say, figure out where my voice sits and how they want to write something so that I can soar, and the character can soar. Sometimes that gets confused.

But, or it's one in the same, I guess. But I love that process so much. And what it is is you go in a room usually in like a regular rehearsal room. And sometimes they only have the first act. Sometimes they have the whole thing, but then they, you, so you do like a little reading of it for a bunch of people and investors. And then everyone gives notes. And then six months later they've scrapped a bunch of things.

Maybe they took a song out of the app too and put it in app one. And now that offsets the whole balance and then this part sucks, but this part's really working, you know, and they keep having to, and you just go with the flow. And I find it fascinating the whole process. Yeah, no, it's interesting hearing about it

as a fan of Broadway. I always have been in the West End in London where I grew up and then Broadway here. It's interesting knowing how it works because I think you take for granted that some of these things, the amount of time they take in development before we even see them. It's funny.

I did wicked at the West End for six months, a year and a half after I left it here in New York. I always wanted to open a show in the West End. To me, that was the most prestigious thing to do. And I had one of the greatest times of my life. I had two Australians starring with me who taught me how to party and do a chose a week, which I think I only learned that because I like they like to take credit for that. But I also think it was because I had already won a Tony. I knew I wasn't going to get fired. I knew how to pace myself. H.O.Z. a week. The pressure was off me. And so I could go to

the pub after. But you know, when you're in the beginnings of a show, you're just, you know, you're you're a monk. Yes. And you don't do anything and you go home and you watch movies and you don't drink alcohol. And, and you know so and that can be kind of lonely. Yeah those schedules seem just insane I was with a friend recently that piloting a show in San Diego at the old Globe Theatre to try and take it into Broadway and so I was watching her and she was telling me about her schedule and then we just I just went and saw the music man this Sunday and like watching Q do that and I was it was just it's fascinating to me to about hair schedule. And then we just, I just went and saw the music man this Sunday.

And like watching Q do that. And I was, it was just, it's fascinating to me to think just what a tough schedule that is. It's exhaust. Yeah, it's, and how do you, like, what were your coping mechanisms the first time around? Like not when you'd won the Tony and not- Well, the first time with friends, I lost my boy, well, I started, I was abusing my boys. I didn't, I took boys lessons my whole life, but I stopped going to my teacher at one point. And I just had never, even though I was singing all those gigs at the weddings, I had never done eight shows a week. And so I had to look, go back to a teacher

and address all the different problem spots in the show for myself. And then I ended up being stronger than ever, and then it's never happening to me again. But back then, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with Jonathan Larson who wrote, he was a composer. I don't know him, but I know. He passed away early on in our process, and it was a very emotional time for all of us.

And we all felt so committed to never missing a show because we just felt like our mission was to show up and communicate his message, you know. So for six months, not one of us missed a show. I was actually the first one because the doctor ordered me to have voice rest. And I've never had a cast do that ever again. I realized that that was very rare that people would miss a show for six months. So that was a commitment and that set a precedent I think for me. It's also because you know have an ego and I don't want my

understanding to go on all the time. But yeah and the more people coming to see a show with your name on the marquee, the more pressure you feel to be there. Yeah, definitely. That's a lot of pressure. But I learned, you learn to pace yourself and you learn what I like to say is I have an A, B and a C show. So the A show is the one that has lots of acrobatic vocals and what I want to

see if I could all the time. The B and the C are melodies that are maybe not as hard, but people don't even notice that they're from. Yeah, no, we're not going to recognize it. And so it's a psychological thing for me that I don't feel like I'm failing if I don't get the A-show. I just say I have a cold, so go out there and do a really great B-show. Yeah. And then the pressure's off, and it ends up having a great show. So there's a lot of it's mental, you know, and just, um...

That's a great technique, I love that. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before, because I think people think that you only have two traces. You either honor off. I don't know, I don't think it's that... Yeah, you're honor off. And that's actually not true.

I love the ABC grading for anything in life, because I don't think we're ever at our A game every single day. It's not possible. Yeah. And how many times do you realize you think you have the worst show interview, whatever, and then someone comes in and you had no idea what you're talking about. Yes.

All that dialogue in your head, that's sabotaging. Yeah. I went to public speaking drama school since I was 11 years old. And so I've been, and public speaking is now the majority of my life. And so there is I know exactly when I think I messed a line up or didn't quite get that message across right and I'll be over-analysing it. I used to do a lot more earlier days, but then you realize no one even noticed any percentage of that.

But I love your ABC grading. Yeah, I wish I could do that this life. have noticed any percentage of that. But I love your ABC grading. Yeah, I wish I could do that with life. Yeah, well, I think it's a good tool for life. I'm hoping that I want to do something. And today I'll be an ABC mom. I'm not going to get it all right today, and my son's going to be angry with me, but that's OK.

But I'm really hard on myself about that stuff. I'm hard on myself in general. I'd like to give so give myself a break. Yeah. Yeah, how did you, how do you think you were able to give yourself a break on stage? Because that's obviously in one sense. I mean, I'm sure, and I'd love to hear this,

from a mother's perspective, and I don't want to assume either way, but I'm guessing you may say that actually being a mother to one child is actually more pressure than performing in front of thousands of people. And when I became a mother, I found a perspective. Obviously, I became less self-absorbed. I realized that my son has a fever tonight.

I want to snuggle with him, take care of him. I don't want to worry that I don't care if I get sick. Yeah, I got a big show tomorrow. What happens if I get stripped throat or something? Well, it's too bad. I'm not going to sleep in the other room. That's just not going to be. I just have to be with them. So then I'd wake up the next day. Didn't get a lot of sleep, worrying about my kid. I'm on stage. What can I do? I'm doing the best I can. I'd have the best shows, you know, because I just, you know, lowered the expectations of myself and for myself. And that's really, it changed my life in a lot of ways when you have something that you care about way more.

Listen to comeback stories. I'm Darren Waller. You may know me best as a tie-in for the New York Giants. You may also know me for my story of overcoming addiction and alcoholism. You may have heard a few of my tracks as an artist or a producer. You may have seen the work that I've done through my foundation. And you may know my friend and co-host Donnie Starkens as well. He's a mindfulness teacher, a yoga instructor, a life coach, a man fully invested in seeing people reach their fullest potential. And we've come to form this platform of comeback stories to really highlight not only our own adversity but adversity in the lives of well-known guests with amazing stories. Catch us every week on Comeback Stories on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All on my hands there, this is Wormar Valdrami, executive producer of the new podcast,

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and I think everyone can relate to that. I think anyone is listening right now. If you're a mother, you definitely feel it. If you're not a mother, you feel it. Like the idea of, I just need a bit easier on myself. Like I think most people are very self-critical. Yeah. Most people who even come across as confident

or even arrogant or often insecure and dealing with something internally. So I'm not an expert in... No, not an expert, I'm just intrigued as to how you think you're gonna, like, whatever. Well, and I also, I'm not ashamed to say my publicist is here in Shippenburg. Like don't say that, but I've taken you know, Prozac and I have help and I yeah because there are some days where I just I'm you know people expect me to let it go and I can't

you know. So I'm doing the best that I can, but being in the moment, being present, you know, is just the hardest thing to do. It's like what we aspire to do as artists, actors, singers to, you know, it's so weird, because the greatest moments I have when I'm performing, or usually moments I can't even remember, because they, I transcend it in some way, you know. But that's not being present then, you know, and that, you know, you can meditate, you can do all these things,

but that it's trying to achieve just one moment where I felt like I'm here in my body, understanding this without judging myself, without criticizing, and so I judging myself, without criticizing. And so, I don't, I don't have the answers. I just, I give myself things to try to stay in the moment. Yeah. Whether it's very clinical, just think about the lyrics, think about breathing, think about getting walker to school tomorrow, or focusing on the person in front of me, and trying to change them in the scene or the song,

you know, but sometimes it's just, it's really hard, I can't get out of there. Yeah. Another day I can. Yeah, but I think that ABC grading is, you've already come up with the perfect. I can't advise, but I have to walk the top. No, but it's what you said beautifully. It's like, that's, that is the way we all need to think, how you started thinking about the stage, you know, think about our life that way. I think it's a great method. And- I also have an incredible husband who was an actor,

his life changed, and he became, he's a clinical director of an inpatient facility out in California that has two houses, recovery, alcohol and drug recovery, and also mental illness. And so he thinks I'm just like a piece of cake all the time, which is really nice to come home and think, he's like, what, that mood is fine, that's nothing, you know?

So that's giving me some perspective too. He just thinks all my neuroses is like normal and he can handle it. I'm not too much, I'm not too much for him. That's beautiful. That's a really special. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, that's, that's a beautiful thing to have in your life. And I think it's, I think that's true for pretty much. I often think with relationships and with my wife, if I sat there, I could easily real off reasons why I think she's annoying or frustrating or whatever. Maybe it's like that's easy.

I think anyone could do that if they've been long enough with someone. But if I stop to think about the things that are special about her and unique about her and the things that she does that no one else could do Mm-hmm. All of a sudden it's like all those other things seem so insignificant and irrelevant. Yeah And I think it's so easy to amplify those small irrelevant Like life is too short. I'm gonna get he's gonna I mean he gets on my nerves so much

I'm gonna travel because I'm traveling all the time. I know how to wear my, I don't wear shoes with laces. I get through the security. I know how to do it. If something changes, I can get another flight. I'm moving and grooving. He walks too slow. He doesn't have that aggressive traveling attitude. And I'm like, oh, and then I realize, why am I, you know,

that he's sweet? Why is this getting on my nerves? It's life's too short. You know, he's when it comes is this getting on my nerves? It was less too short. You know, when it comes down to it, he's an incredible father in my son and he's there for me whenever I need him and he really sees me, sees my soul. And so those little things are so silly.

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like we all pair up with someone who's exactly the other way. Like I'm probably more like you in that sense as you describe that I just like you know I'm like folk I want to get to the airport three hours early and figure everything out and like I don't like rushing I don't like being late and my wife's like you know, just like she's happy to run to the The what do you call it the terminal like run to the yeah the gate sorry terminal, like, run to the gate. Yeah, the gate, sorry, the gate, yeah, run to the gate. And I'm like, I don't want to live like this. She loves the pressure and whatever it may be. So, but I feel like we always pair up with people like that.

But with your dreams earlier, you said this. You're like, you know, dreams for the future. Like, what are the dreams now? Like, how have you dreamed shifted to changed? Or what's left? You said elusive. Some of the dreams are still elusive. You said that was the way.

Well, now talking to you, they seem so trivial. LAUGHTER Well, professionally, there's things. Yeah. I want to be a better performer, a better artist. I want to work with people that I've always looked up to. I want to work with some more people like that. That's not true.

That's not true. Teach me stuff. I want to create more original musicals, but my son is mixed. He identifies as black, and I see him as a black 13 year old boy, little man. That's kind of where a lot of my focus is. I think lately is I don't want my whiteness

to be something that I know people say, you're the mom. He's going to love you, but he's super smart and intuitive and there's going to be things that I can't understand for him because I'm not in his skin. And I find myself preoccupied with that a lot. Like how can I be so close to him, be the one that he can come to for everything if I can't totally understand all that because I just haven't lived it, how can I educate myself?

How can I be better in that way? And as he's getting older, he's becoming more and more aware of the society that he lives in. And the chaotic world he lives in, the violence, the racism. And I just wanna be someone he can come to. You know, so I'm probably overthinking a lot of that, but that's a lot where my energy goes to.

Just how can I really be better in that way for him? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think my parents felt that way when I was a kid, and for different reasons completely, but mine was probably not as smart or as intuitive as your sun sounds, but I was highly rebellious and I was getting involved in all the wrong places and so of course my parents didn't raise me that way. And they did only think everything right and they were loving and why were you pushing back?

I think I've always been like a thrill seeker. Like I've always deeply wanted a purpose. I didn't know that word at that. At 13, I just thought thrill meant excitement and almost doing well in school and getting good grades. I didn't feel like enough. I was like, that can't be the goal of life to do well in school. That can't be it.

You got a lift. There has to be. Yeah, what does it mean to live? And I feel like it's really interesting because that age at least, whenever I'm working that can't be it. You got a limb. That has to be seen. Yeah, like what does it mean to live, right? What does it mean? And I feel like it's really interesting because that age at least, and whenever I'm working with someone or whenever I hear about that, I always feel like that's the age when kids kind of

like start going off in their own journeys and their own directions. And one thing that my dad did that I think was a game changer because I realized that at that point, no matter what my parents said, I wasn't going to listen to it, no matter what they said. And I think a lot of parents-

That's part of your job. Yeah, yeah, exactly, right? And I think every child, everyone who's been a child, that you, everyone has that experience of, yeah, I didn't listen to my parents when I was 13. And then I think every parent has that experience and my kids don't listen to me from like 13 to 21 maybe. And then my dad started giving me books

of people's lives of people that he thought I'd be inspired by based on my ambition and my rebellion. Well, at that time it started to be people like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King and then later on I read Einstein and then I was also reading people like that I was interested in as a 15 year old kid like David Beckham and so I was into soccer or Dwayne DeRoc Johnson because he was in WWE and so I was really Malcolm X on one side of David Beckham on the other, but it was, it was really fascinating to me because it was almost like

those people could talk to me at that time in a way that my parents never could, because they had lived experiences or things that for some reason, you know, connected with me and resonated with me and resonated with me in a way that, even if my parents had the same things, it would never have connected. And I wonder, hence you writing a children's book, which is where my direction is going. It's like, I'm fascinated by who the voice is. Your son needs to hear right now at this time and his life. Yeah, I don't know if it's mine.

No, no, no. I don't think it ever is your parents. Not because our parents are wrong. Like, there's that famous quote. I don't know who said it, but it's the day you realize your parents were right, your kids are telling you that you're wrong. Exactly.

And it's one of those moments, like, now I'm so grateful to my parents, and I can see everything. I'm 35. And I'm like, OK, yeah, I value everything my parents did, and they tried their best. But in those times, I'm like, okay, yeah, I value everything my parents did and they tried their best, but in those times I find like finding the voices of other people that Feel like your voice to you that he can hear it from someone else feels like

You know feels like I'm wondering this children's book was that a way of communicating to like what was the yeah, what what was the purpose behind it? I want him to hear that message. My son is pretty confident. So I think the book comes from my interaction with so many young people through all the projects that I've been a part of and multi-generational projects, you know, of really seeing lots of young people inhibit themselves and score in their unique qualities. And I relate to that because that's how I was. My son's pretty sure of himself. So hopefully that's good. I mean, because I think we all as parents project, you know, all the stuff that I need to work on in myself when you have a kid, it comes like glaring back at you, you know. He's okay with the spotlight, you know? So I

don't know if this book is necessarily written for him to help him because he teaches me. That's beautiful. I, you know, I am, he said, he said, Mom, when I get my braces off and I, uh, and I go through puberty, this is going to be no stop. That's awesome. He means that with the girls, he means that with basketball, he means that with everything. So it's like, I just need to take a lesson from my son, you know. So I think the book comes from, I wrote it with my sister, first of all, who I'm very close to, Cara, and she's a teacher, an elementary school teacher,

a writer, and also specializing literacy at school. So I wanted to write it with her because she's a pro, and she understood me better than anyone else in the world. Understands me. She's the closest person to me. She's younger, but she's the wiser. She's the older soul. And it was the two of us writing this together because we experienced it as sisters. I was always loud and singing and taking up all this space. And she was always, am I supposed to know

what I want to do with the age of seven? I don't know what I want to do. And so we've been really exploring all of those issues. That's so awesome. I think so that's more for those kids that are just a little bit hesitant to kind of allow people to see them. Yeah. And allow themselves to be vulnerable and take a risk.

Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, I have a younger sister. And we became, we're still extremely close. She's like my best friend She knows everything about me and I know everything about her and she's I almost treat her like a little child She's only five years younger than me, but to me that's like I remember holding her when I was five years old And she was this tiny little baby. You two are never holding my sister. Yeah, that's one of those like you know very special memories I'm kind of seeing her grow up and feeling older, even that wasn't old.

But it's interesting, like I think with siblings, it's fascinating to hear that difference also of being okay with one being loud and one being silent and noticing how neither of those strengths or weaknesses, although I think it's often imprinted that someone who's loud is more confident and is more. Right, and that's totally a contradiction, at least in me. I mean, if you saw me at home, I'm actually kind of quiet and people that meet me, they say,

oh, you're actually really soft-spoken. And so the girl with the big voice and singing to their actors is definitely part of me, but I think we all have these different sides. And then my sister, who is very soft-spoken, she's the one that when I went to watch her teach, she was a TA back in Boulder at CU, and she didn't know what she wanted to do. And I was like some neuroscience class, and she was a TA. And I sat in the back in the washroom. She was unbelievable, so charismatic, so on her voice,

so engaging, the students loved her. And I said, this is your thing, you've got to teach. So our voice emerges in many different ways. And I think it's a little bit a misconception that someone like me who knows how to produce loud sounds and hit the back row is necessarily comfortable in her own voice in my own life. Because especially given that mantle, to always sing, let it go to kids or to fight gravity. It's like, oh, you know, I'm not always that example.

I mean, I have those days where I can't get out of bed myself and I have to find my voice as well. It's so I hate for people to think that there's this perception of me that I'm fearless because I'm not. Yeah, of course. And it sounds like this book is also where finding your voice because you're playing so many other voices. Yes. Well, there's, yeah, I mean, it's autobiographical and too little mouth, too little mice away.

Yeah. But I love that you chose a mouse to represent it. Yeah, because the mouse feels so small, but when she sings, she's the joy and the sound of her voice. When she decides to share it with the class, instead of just keeping it to herself at home, she ends up becoming a huge, huge, huge mouse. And now everybody can see her and hear her.

And that invites a lot of scrutiny, a lot of accolades, but a lot of different things. And I think that's what happens with all of us when we allow ourselves to be seen. Yeah, I'm always intrigued by people who play lots of voices. And as you said, I think everyone's always searching for their voice in life because they forget

that their early voice was so informed by their parents and then their later voice was so informed by friends. And then our voice is just always a mix of other people's noise. And then I wonder for you, do you ever feel like you've rubbed off on the voices of your characters, your characters voices rub off on you. Like I'm always fascinated by people who play people

for a living, like how that. That's what I was saying before, chicken or the egg. How much am I bringing to something that then the writers are inspired by what I'm bringing and how much is the part sort of finding me? Which characters do you think? Which characters do you think? Which characters do you think rubbed off the most on you in a? Each one was like a gift at the time, you know,

like the rent stuff was really be all those things. And then when Wicked came along, I was definitely more insecure and needing to sort of allow myself to not be afraid of my own anger and, um, my larger than life qualities. So that one was really artimitating life. So different things. I don't know. There's a beautiful. Yeah. No, there's a wonderful. It's just, so it's just so much, yeah, it's so much more when you're playing someone deeply, it's so much more deeper than just, oh yeah, they're a character, right? Well, then you live with them for how many shows a year.

Yeah, well, that's even more than a movie, right? Yeah. Like even more than a TV show or a movie. It's like, this character is what each show is. Yeah, and I have two instances now. With Rent the Movie, we did it 10 years after I left the show. And then I have this sequel to Enchanted, Disenchanted, coming out now and that's 15 years later and it's kind of fun to

revisit a character years later because it's just you see how like life is informed you're who you are and how you approach the character now. It's really, I find it really fascinating to go back and see that. I threw caution to the wind a lot. I didn't have as much process when I was younger. Just kind of like was raw and in the moment and spontaneous and in the moment. But the older I've been getting the less in the moment I am

because the more you're aware of how far you can fall, you know, and you get in your head. So I don't know. Yeah, what's something that you feel you used to value that you don't value anymore? Something that was important to you that's become less and less important. Hmm.

I was going to say being liked, but having people caring about what people think, but I think I still care about what people think. We're older. Yeah. When I was asked this question, and that's where I started to involve it in my interviews, and it was probably one of the only questions that made me stop and think, like, you had to, you know, most questions you just, you're just talking. And then my answer to it in the moment without thinking about it and like seven seconds of thinking about it

was being understood. I think I realized that 99% of the world would never be able to understand anyone fully. I don't think it's actually possible. And I think the pressure we put on ourselves to try to understand someone fully rushes the process of understanding them half. Yes. And so like that feeling of, I understand you, like even we just want to be able to say that. And we want to be able to say that so quickly. So, saying about my son, I will never, yeah, it's what you have to be able to be all those things to him.

Exactly. Yeah. I live in a white woman's body and my background and where I've come from and just because he came from my womb, I think he made the carte blanche to understand his emotion. You know, so that's very frustrating. Yeah. And I need to just accept that. Yeah, and accepting it just, yeah, I think for me it was like, I realized that even if someone does understand you, they won't understand you in the way you want them to understand you, right? Even in wanting to be understood. Like, you're only trying to understand someone else,

but even, I think all of us crave to be understood when we say something. That's what I've really seen, like, someone really gets me. Exactly. And I've found even the people that really get me. But you don't really someone really gets me. Exactly. And I found even the people that really get me. But you don't really, really get me. They get me. They do. My closest friends really get me. But even then, there's a part of you that only you get.

And I don't know, I never know. And that's, and being a piece with that has been very good for me. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Would just be the minor on business. Stop worrying about what other people are doing and live your own life. That's a great one. I love that. It isn't a madzal everyone. If you have been listening or watching, thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you share what you learned, what you took away,

any reflections, any questions that you've had. Tag us both on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter, all the platforms that you know that we're on right now. And of course, the book, Loud Mouse, is available. We're going to put the link in the show notes. You can order it as well. You can read it along. I know I'm going to be ordering a ton of copies

for all my nieces and nephews. Yeah. And there's a refrain in it. So there's a song I wrote that goes along with that. And you don't have to sing it. I definitely will not sing it. Sing it however you sing. I just gave you a little start.

I don't sing. I never do. I'll be ordering them, ordering the book for my nieces and nephews to share it with them as well. I know that. It's probably one of my favorite things to do is to sit down and read a children's book with a child. And I don't have two kids in my own yet, but when I do it with nieces and nephews

or my godsend, it's like one of the most fun, fun bonding experiences. I look forward to it. Yeah, thank you, Nina. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you love this episode, you will enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor

on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what, her thighs are cute. Listen to comeback stories. I'm Darren Waller. You might know me at the Titan for the New York Giants or some of you might know me from my story of

struggling with and beating addiction to become a pro-walt Titan. With me I have my friend and co-host Donnie Starkens who is a yoga instructor and a personal development coach. Catch us every week on Comeback Stories, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. or teas and fabulous abuelita liana Montenegro will play matchmaker for a group of hopeful romantics. Right, Vico? You know it! Listen to Dave, my abuelita first! Thursdays on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. And remember, don't do anything I wouldn't do. Just do it better.

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