On Purpose with Jay Shetty - John & Julie Gottman ON: Dating, Finding The Perfect Partner & Maintaining A Healthy Relationship

Episode Date: September 28, 2020

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon.In this episode, Jay Shetty is joined by John & Julie Gottman to explore age-old questions about love, relationships, dating, and marriage.Are you just beginning a new relationship or longing for a deeper connection with your romantic partner? John and Julie Gottman, co-designers of the national clinical training program in Gottman Method Couples Therapy, share their knowledge and the science behind building and maintaining healthy, meaningful relationships. Go to https://www.gottman.com for more.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Hart, Louis Hamilton, and many, many more. On this podcast, you get to hear the raw real-life stories behind their journeys and the tools they used, the books they read, and the people that made a difference in their lives so that they can make a difference in hours. Listen to on purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the journey soon. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Nunehm. I'm a journalist, a wanderer, and a bit of a bond-vivant, but mostly a human just trying

to figure out what it's all about. And not lost is my new podcast about all those things. It's a travel show where each week I go with a friend to a new place and to really understand it, I try to get invited to a local's house for dinner where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party, it doesn't always work out. Ooh, I have to get back to you.

Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. When my daughter ran off to hop trains, I was terrified I'd never see her again, so I followed her into the train yard. This is what it sounds like inside the box car. And into the city of the rails, there I found a surprising world,

so brutal and beautiful that it changed me, but the rails do that to everyone. There is another world out there, and if you want to play with the devil, you're going to find them down in the rail yard. Undenail Morton, come with me to find out what waits for us and the city of the rails. Listen to City of the Rails on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Or, cityoftherails.com.

First of all, I just want to say a huge thank you to each and every single one of you who've bought my book, left a review, shared it with your friends. It's been incredible to see you all think like a monk. And if you don't have it already, please, please, please, go and grab your copy at thinklikeamoncbook.com where

you can get audible, kindle, and I read through the audible myself. It's over 20 hours. So if you could deal with my voice a little bit more, then it's right there. But I can't wait for you to read this book. I put so much love and energy into it, and I can't wait for you to train your mind for peace and purpose every day. Check it out. Watch out for somebody who's unreliable and then doesn't apologize, doesn't take responsibility for it, or somebody who's unreliable over and over and over again. If it's a pattern, forget it. You know, everybody can have an emergency every now and then.

Okay. But if it's pattern, you don't deserve that, you deserve much more. You deserve somebody who's really there. When they say they're gonna be there with their whole being. Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose. Thank you so much for taking out time to be with us Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose. Thank you so much for taking out time to be with us to listen, learn and grow on the

number one health and wellbeing podcast in the world. And I'm so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love is Out and I cannot wait to share with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book. For you to listen to this book, I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to 8rulesoflove.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling

with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour. Love rules. Go to jsheddytour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. Now, you know that I love it being able to sit down with incredible guests that can share fascinating stories, insights and wisdom and practical tips on how we can live better. And I've been listening to all of you. You've got a lot of questions on love, on relationships,

on dating, on marriage. And I thought, I know sometimes I can be giving you some advice on that, but a lot of the advice I give on that topic is from these two incredible incredible thinkers and teachers who just happened to be married and in love as well. So I want to introduce you to our amazing guests today. First of all Julie Gottman, PhD, Julie is the co-founder and president of the Gottman Institute and co-founder of the Effective Software Inc. A highly respected clinical psychologist and author, she sought internationally by media and organizations as an expert advisor on issues involving marriage, PTSD, sexual harassment, rape, domestic violence, parenting and cancer treatment. Now, she's the winner of the Washington

State Psychologist of the Year. She's the co-creator of the mentally popular, the art and science of love. We can't workshop for couples. And she also co-designed the National Clinical Training Program in Gotman Method Couples Therapy. She's the co-author of seven books, including most recently, eight dates,

which I can't wait to talk about, a central conversation for a lifetime of love. And of course, her amazing husband, John Gottman, PhD, co-founder of the Gottman Institute and a Fecta software, of course, known worldwide for his work on Marital Stability and Divorce prediction, which again is a fascinating subject

that I can't wait to talk about. He's conducted nearly 50 years of research with thousands of couples, and his work on marriage and parenting has earned numerous awards, including four National Institute of Mental Health Research, scientists awards, and American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy.

So he's the co-author of 40 books, including the New York Times bestseller, the seven principles of making marriage work. So if you are excited as I am, let's please welcome two on-purpose John and Julie Conn. Thank you for being here. Oh, thank you, John. Thank you so much, Jay. It's a great opportunity. I was just sharing with you earlier before we started recording officially that we briefly met at the Wisdom 2.0 conference. A couple of years ago I think he was in San Francisco and I was most excited to hear you both speak because I've quoted your work on my podcast in my videos. Your research is just so phenomenal. I'm so grateful to have access to it. And the work that you're doing is so meaningful that I'm so glad that my audience and community

finally gets to hear from the source. So thank you for this time and opportunity. How are you, We are actually quite wonderful, which during COVID we feel guilty to say, but we are doing just great. How about yourself, Jay? I'm very much of the same. I feel like I've been able to really serve with my purpose at this time, and I think that that's really being where I found my certainty is feeling like I know what I'm meant to be doing and trying to help others considering I'm healthy and well, how can I serve and support others. So very much of the same. And I want to start off with you, maybe something that you don't get asked of. But John, I know that one of your favorite films is

Sleepless in Seattle. And I want to know why. And I also don't want to know what Julie's favorite film is as well to get your movie choices because I'm a big movie junkie too. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. Well, I love Tom Hanks' monologue in that film where he's being interviewed and he's talking about his late wife. He's a widower and he says that as soon as he touched her for the first time, that as soon as he touched her for the first time, it felt like coming home. But it was like no home he'd ever known before. And it was just magic. And I just love that line about coming home, being how you know it's the right person. That's the way I feel about my life. That's the way I feel about my life. I love that. That's beautiful. I love it. And Judy, how about you guys?

Gully. Well, I probably have to say, Casa Blanca, another great romantic movie that's ancient and old and mildly racist, unfortunately. But it is a gorgeous movie of a deep love and yet, you know, love, new love, loyalty, you know, where does one stand. And it is quite deep. Music is terrific. And I've watched it.

I don't know, maybe a hundred times, along with Space Odyssey 2000. Oh, yes. That's right up there too. Good, thanks. Thank you both. And I love how you both picked movies that are highly romantic and love-filled. And the way I want to start this conversation is actually to ask you both about how you both met and how you've been managing to work together for so many years because I think that that's an incredible achievement in of itself as I was reading your bio and everyone can hear about the amount of projects you've worked on together. So tell me about how you both met and how you started working together. Well, I kind of made it a project 34 years ago to just date as many women as I could.

And, you know, I had dated 60 women in one summer, and I was sitting in a coffee house and Julie walked in, and I had the courage to go over to her and ask her if she would join me for coffee. And she did. I was number 61. Yeah. I was number 61. Yeah, she was number 61. I had a database. So it was just an amazing conversation.

Most of the women I had met that summer, I couldn't even talk to. And all they did, like my sense of humor, and we hit it off immediately and we're laughing together very quickly and had this very intense conversation and it's never stopped. So John, you invented Tinder. You invented the first version of David's 60 people in a row. I mean, you had a database you said. That sounds like an online dating app to me in the making.

That's incredible. And what made you so focused on having to see, like, did you just decide that you needed to be structured and you just needed to meet more people in order to meet the right person? Like, what was your thought process at that time? Before I used to be. I'd been divorced for about seven years

and lived in a college town in Champaign, Illinois and had a lot of trouble meeting women my age. I was in my 40s. And so I had about four months before school began at University of Washington and I just moved to Seattle and I thought, you know, why not just take this time and see if I can make some friends? At least have somebody to go to movies with and you know, and maybe find somebody So I kind of did it systematically I love it. It's great. I think I think it's I can't wait to dive into that. Julie for you What was your dating life at the time time and what was it about that meeting with

John that turned into this? Well it was interesting Jay. I too had been divorced for almost seven years and I took some time off between college and grad school then went to grad school, got PhD in six years and just actually set a prayer, got my car in Southern California, had no idea where I was going to land and drove up up up up up. And in San Francisco, my car was towed away. It was broken into and I bought a walkman to replace the cassette that got stolen, didn't work, batteries didn't work, I figured

San Francisco was not the place for me. So kept going, landed in Seattle and was just happened to be on my way to a party, kind of dressed up and walked into this coffee house because I can't do anything socially without coffee. And met John. And John was so, so much the vision of what I've been looking for. He was incredibly intelligent, obviously. He was hilarious. His eyes were gorgeous. He has these huge eyes. And we didn't talk about psychology at first. We talked about rituals I had explored with Native American tribe,

and he talked about a play he had written. So, you know, we found out we were both psychologists and the rest is history. I'm not a numerologist, but I feel that the number seven is very prominent in your life. You both said seven years of divorce and then six plus one is seven, two. So you're 61st, that's the best. That's the best.

I'm growing up. Are there any other sevens in birth dates or wedding dates or anniversary? I'm April 7th. Oh, there we go. There we go. I'm not very scientific, but it's nice to find these. But no, that's so beautiful to hear that from both of you. And I guess how much emphasis did you put on that first date being a sign that this was going

to be a long-term thing versus how much was that first date just to sign the hey I want to spend more time with this person? I think for me, well I'll share something with you. I had a vision of who I would meet about two years earlier from the back and it was like a photograph. And when John got up to pay the bill, I looked at the back of him and it was the photograph I'd seen two years earlier. So I thought, holy cow, I can't believe it. This seems to be the guy. But then the real sincher was when he walked me to his car, or to my car, and we walked past his car and mind you, his car had been voted the ugliest car in the University of Washington

faculty parking lot. I fell in love with that car. It was magnificent. It was such a beautiful ugly car and I loved it and I knew that he was the guy for me. I love that. That's beautiful. And John, how about you? What was it for you?

Was it that first date that kind of set it up when you started thinking long time because you met 60 women already? Or was it for the first time? Yeah, she was a clear outlier for me. And it was just so easy to talk to her. And I had a dream that weekend after I met her. And in this dream, she was represented by a tiger who was prowling the forest.

And the markings on the tiger were the same as the dress she was wearing when I first met her. And the tiger may be really peaceful. And that's one of my nicknames for Julie, this tiger. Wow, this is, I mean, the fierce protector of our family. And I love that. She's my Tiger.

What I find fascinating about this, and I really appreciate both your openness and honesty, is just how unscientific all these things are. Don't tell. don't tell them. And we've got dreams, we've got visions, I love it, it's beautiful. And I really want to dive into your studies and your research that you've done,

and like I said, that I found for the fascinating. And I'd love for you to, and that's what I love of both of you, is that you can also bring that personal human element to the research, which is so important for so many people to feel like their partner is connected to them in some deeper way as well. So let's get straight in. And I'm happy for both of you to answer the questions I asked.

You know, for me, it's, it's just hearing from both of you is, is very meaningful and joyful for me. So if you want to add something to a question I asked each of you, then please feel free. Like there's no rules. And I want to hear from both of you equally. So the first thing I really want to talk about is the mistakes people make in successful or unsuccessful

dating because I feel like we're living at a time right now where, especially my generation and the generation afterwards, have more choice. Like you had a database with 60 people. That's pretty impressive. I'm sure for that time of people that have access to that much choice.

But today, it's very normal to a dating app or a website or whatever it may be for people to have access to You know unlimited numbers of choice in in one sense and so we've got so much choice There's also just so much remove like I'm sure you were meeting these women you won't enthrag them through a digital Tech piece of technology whereas today we're seeing pictures. We're reading about people before we even meet them We get to judge them on multiple different angles of pictures and holiday pictures and all of this kind of stuff. Tell us about what the research is showing about the unsuccessful dating mistakes or dating mistakes that people are making right now. Well, first of all, let us both say that all of the dating sites are not particularly successful at creating matches.

There are algorithms really don't work. And I think some of the mistakes, some of the common myths that people make, I mean, just phrase it that way. When people are dating, they think they have to be compatible in as many ways as possible. That's a total myth, actually. It helps maybe to have some similar values or dreams maybe a couple that overlap,

but what we've also found is that people can be very, very different and still have incredible relationships. So that's one myth. Another myth is that you have to be absolutely equal in level of attractiveness? No, that's not really true either because most of sexual attraction has to do with pheromones, not just visual pheromones, are little tiny chemicals that have to do with what you smell, almost unconsciously from someone. What else generally? Well, the book Data Clism, you know, which is about, okay, Cupid, written by the guy who collected all the data, they had to set up about 50,000 encounters before two people would like each other. So it's a very inefficient system. And you know, we need to really say that that's where our

science of relationships is at its worst. We really don't know how to match people. We still don't know how to match people. We know what's wrong, and Julie's pointing out this idea that two people who are the same, similar in their interests and so on, are more likely to like each other. And that doesn't seem to be true because I think it's not just that you have the same interest, it's how you relate to each other when you have that interest. So we love to kayak, and we've seen a lot of couples going down the river, kayaking, screaming at each other, saying, you idiot, that's not a do a J-stroke, you know? So they have the interest in common,

but it's really how they communicate and how playful they are, how much they enjoy each other's company, how open-minded they are to one another. I think it's things like that that make, make the difference. And we love to cite the T-shirts studied by Klaus Wettekend, a German researcher, where women smell T-shirts that were worn by men for two days.

And they picked the T-shirt that they thought smelled the best or the least worst. And it turned out that they picked men who are genetically most different from them, especially on the genes of the immune system, called the major histocompatibility complex. So it's like women are really attracted to men who are heterosexual women are attracted to men who are really very different from them. So if you tried to pair them with somebody who's just like them, they would find them unattractive. And the next study has been done with, if you paired them with those men, would they like them better? And the answer is yes, they do.

So that's kind of an interesting study, saying that, make choices pretty complicated. And there's a lot of magic in it. I'm Dr. Romani, and I am back with season two of my podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Narcissists are everywhere, and their toxic behavior in words can cause serious harm to your mental health. In our first season, we heard from Eileen Charlotte,

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to podcasts. Big love. Namaste. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you already have, it's already intriguing hearing it from that perspective because I agree that what you were saying, Julie earlier about how, you know, people are looking for people

with similar interests, and they're looking for people with similar backgrounds or similar upbringing maybe, and so they've had similar experiences that doesn't necessarily to success. But I guess the challenges, as you were saying, John, is that when people are going on these dates, they can't see the DNA, they can't see the matchability. What are the signs of what someone can be looking for? Because I think that's sometimes the struggle that a lot of what we're looking for has been almost masked by movies and music videos

and media. And so we kind of have this. I remember the first time I had a crush on a girl when I was like, you know, probably like 10 or 11 years old, is because I'd seen a movie where the guy was just head over heels for this girl and I felt I had to feel that way and so I felt so much of our feelings and emotions around love are based on what movies we saw when we were younger or how our parents related to each other maybe

and so what are some of the things that we should look for in the beginning of a dating phase or beginning of a relationship? Great question. Well, some of those things have to do with, does the person you're dating listen to you? Do they ask you big open-ended questions? Like, how long have you been in Seattle is a closended question. An open-ended question is, what do you love about Seattle? Or, was it that really drew you to Seattle? And then listens to the answer and actually remembers the answer, which may be more difficult for couples dating in their 80s of which there are many, but the younger, you know, you want to really feel like your dating partner is interested in finding out who you are, not only superficially, but at

a deeper and deeper and deeper level as you are comfortable self-disclosing. And in addition, is that person reliable? Did they show up when they say they're going to show off? Do they call you and thank you for the date, which is one of those kind of kind of things to do afterwards? Do they show that they're interested? Or are they playing hard to get and mentioning all their other relationships and sorry I'm busy I can't I can't I can't that that old unfortunate female stereotype of playing hard to get is not a great idea because it typically isn't sincere it It's not real. If that person is really interested in the other. So, and sometimes males will do that same thing. Not cool.

Be straight, be honest. By straight, I mean honest. Yes, sincere. No matter who you're dating, and watch out for the person looking away, not really listening to you, looking at somebody else in the room, staring at somebody else, not really being attentive, being there.

Look for hearing little sharps or caustic remarks that aren't humorous necessarily. They've got a cutting edge. Watch out for criticism. Watch out for somebody who's unreliable and then doesn't apologize, doesn't take responsibility for it. Or somebody who's unreliable over and over and over again. If it's a pattern, forget it. You know, everybody can have an emergency every now and then. Okay, but if it's pattern, you don't

deserve that, you deserve much more. You deserve somebody who's really there when they say they're going to be there with their whole being. So trustworthiness, kindness, generosity, real interest in you. And I think also in ease of being able to be together, it should feel good to be together. And you should feel a sense of love and affection. And well, not on the very first date, but eventually eventually as a characteristic of that person that that person is a loving

person. I know one of the things that really impressed me about Julie was when she made dinner for me the first time, I moved her cat off a chair. So I could sit on it. And the cat walked into the kitchen and complained. And I could tell the cat was saying, who the heck is this guy who do you think he is he moved me off my favorite chair and I could tell that this cat was really being treated well by Julie. He was a very kind person. I really grew to love that cat. We call their sassy and you know there's, there's just those moments where you can tell

that your partner is really a person of substance. Can I bring up one other thing that I really cautioned some of my clients to look out for, which is, how did they treat somebody who's serving them? How did they treat a waiter or a server, a waitress? How did they treat a clerk? If the helper is delayed for some reason or can't immediately give them what they want, how do they respond to that? Are they understanding? Are they patient? Are they courteous? Are they kind? Or are they pulling a superior

punch basically and cutting them down? That is a great way to note the nature of somebody's inner being. Those are great answers actually because I think what you spoke about there is the key kind of core values of like looking for trustworthyness, kindness, reliability. Often these are the things that we don't think about at all because they're so wrapped up in like either just being physically attracted or we're just wrapped up in what they do for a living or what they're wearing, like all that kind of stuff. I wondered though, something you said, Julie, really got me thinking was, you know, why is it that we're so attracted

to people who play hard to get? Like what is it that's so attractive? I was just speaking to someone the other day that I was working with, and she was saying the same thing. She was like, I just want a wild card, you know? I just want someone who's just, you know, like, like keeps me on my toes kind of feeling.

Like, you know, someone who's got that kind of superiority edge to them, who may be a bit, you know, almost like arrogant or quirky confident, but slightly undersighted of that, playing hard to get. Why is it, first of all, first question to both of you, why is it that we find that person so attractive? And second of all, why do we keep chasing that person even though we know the negatives

that come with it? Or what are the negatives that come with it? Great question. I think the answer is complex and it depends on the individual, of course. So I'll stereotype just a wee bit. On the surface, that's what we've seen in movies. That's what we've seen on TV. That's what we've got kind of programmed

over thousands and thousands of hours of that kind of demonstration of hard to get. But on a deeper level, I've never found somebody who was really, really well-loved in their earlier life, who has sought somebody who seems to be unavailable. Okay, so what that means is that when we're not emotionally comforted by either parent or caretaker, when our feelings aren't listened to, when our needs aren't listened to, when we're expected to be obedient and just be quiet and always be chipper and chouful and da, da, da, da, da. But we feel distant, really distant from those caretakers who don't seem to know our inner world

at all. That's what we grow accustomed to. And even though we don't want to repeat that, it is like a magnetic draw. It's like putting on an old coat that's full of holes. want to repeat that, it is like a magnetic draw. It's like putting on an old coat that's full of holes and it may be cold for us to wear it, but it's very comfortable because it's very familiar

and we know how to handle it, we recognize it. As opposed to somebody who's right there, who's pursuing us, who obviously really wants us, that is like being on an alien planet and it's very scary and so we back away. Interesting. A lot of times, you know, compared to our generation people today are having sex very quickly. generation people today are having sex very quickly. And part of the problem is that when you do that, you both secrete oxytocin after an orgasm and oxytocin makes you feel artificially safe. And you ignore the red flags. It's also the hormone of bad judgment. And so a lot of times people are ignoring red flags like the person really isn't interested in you.

And you keep thinking it's going to be okay because that hormone makes you feel safe and secure. And you don't see the red flags that the is sending, saying, I'm not trustworthy. I don't like you very much. I am an arrogant person, and I will reject you. I'm a judgmental person, and I find fault with everyone. So you ignore those red flags, unfortunately. I'm so glad you brought that up.

You're here later. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think that's one of the reasons why when people have makeup sex, for example, like whenever they argue, it's the same thing happening, right? It's just substituent. And I think we hear this rhetoric of like, you can't substitute a real relationship

just with a physical relationship. But knowing the science behind it is fascinating and makes it completely clear that this is not a spiritual or a well-being tip. This is actually a scientific, chemical reaction to what's actually happening that we're convincing ourselves that things are falsely safe. That's yeah, that's fascinating to hear it from that perspective. I've never heard that before. So I love that. I want to move on. We've talked about dating, which I think is really useful. So everyone who's listening or watching right now,

I hope that this is answering a lot of the questions you've been asking me, and hence I'm asking the experts Dr. John and Julie Gottman. And I want to recommend that book. And we will dive more into the eight dates, which is the essential conversations for a lifetime of love. I definitely want you to recommend reading that book. But I want to dive into more about now, like, long-term relationships and marriage, because

I think that as we progress through, I'm trying to take a chronological view to a relationship. Tell us about this, and I know, John, this is a more in your field, but, Julia, of course, I welcome your answers throughout. It's fascinating. The three of you said you were able to predict with over 90% accuracy which couples are going to divorce. That's my blame for me. That's incredible. Well, I tell you, I was surprised by it as you are. So this is based on research that I did for over 40 years with my best friend, Robert Levinson, who's a professor of psychology at Berkeley, UC Berkeley.

And Bob and I did some of the first research that collected physiological data from couples as they were talking to each other. And we just had them come in and talk about how their day went after they've been apart for eight hours and deal with a conflict issue and a positive topic and then follow them for many years. And we found that it was really quite easy to predict the future of relationship. The first study, we really didn't have any predictions, but we found just serendipitously that people

whose relationships didn't last had a much higher heart rate when they talked to each other. Their blood was slowing faster. They were sweating more from the palms of their hands. And what was making them more physiological reactive was that they were much more hostile to one another. They were angry, they were contemptuous, they were defensive, they were critical of their partner, they put their partner down, and it was that escalation of negativity that really was related to what was going on in their bodies. They were in fight or flight. And so the combination of looking how they talked to each other and what was going on physiologically turned out to be a reliable predictor. And Bob and I did seven studies looking at this, looking at gay lesbian couples,

looking at couples in their 40s and their 60s, following them for as long as 20 years, looking at 130 newlyweds, drilling and I designed an apartment lab together in Seattle. And we watched these couples as they had their first babies and interacted with their babies and watched the babies develop too. So that was the line of research. And it's been true that the prediction is very strong. And marital interaction is very stable.

It has 80% stability. When we bring a couple in six years later, 12 years later, 18 years later, we find 80% stability over time without intervention. And for the last 25 years, Julie and I have been working together on, you know, can we intervene and help couples? Can we prevent relationship disaster? And we've been finding that we absolutely can. So that line of research really tells a wonderful story because we really can discriminate between the masters of relationship and the disasters of relationship. We can prevent the disasters and we can help people who are disasters not all the time,

but at least 80-something percent of the time turn their relationships around. Let me just add one thing. The moral to the story is that John and I are not relationship gurus. Take us down off the pedestal. The real gurus were the successful couples that we studied out of 3000 couples, a great big percentage of those were successful. And so the interventions that we then created later on,

which were now wrapping into an app with our company Effective Software, Inc. is based on what those successful couples did, which is, you know, miraculous. They were the ones who really taught John and me, how to have a good marriage, as well as what we could then take and help other couples with you. Yeah, absolutely.

No, absolutely, but it is the studying of, you know, you're asking all the right questions and I think that's why I value your studies so much is because you're looking at people over a long period of time, you're looking at them through key transitions period of time, you're looking at them through key transitions in their life, key changes in their life.

And that's where a lot of the pressure comes from. And I'm fascinated because you both talk about in healthy relationships, you say there's a practice of this five to one positive to negative ratio. Can you elaborate on that and break that down for us so that people who may be listening to this right now and thinking, you know what, I kind of sound like one of those couples, like I kind of sound like one of those couples that were probably going down the disaster route, we're not quite there yet,

but we're going down that route. How can we kind of intervene almost through this? Let me also add that I've kept track of my own hypotheses over time. And it turns out I'm wrong 60% of the time. So Julie's right, it's really the data that are informing us. And we make a lot of mistakes in prediction. Mostly we're wrong. And if we didn't do the research, we think we were right 100% of the time.

But we're mostly wrong. And it's the data that's correcting us. So you want to answer that five to one? Sure. So first of all, let's be really clear that five to one is a ratio applied to when you're discussing a problem, a conflict area, first of all. And the ratio represents how many times you have a positive interaction compared to a negative interaction.

And what we've learned is that the successful couples have at least five times as many positive interactions and responses to each other as negative ones. And by negative, we're talking about what we call and responses to each other as negative ones. And by negative, we're talking about what we call the forehorsement of the apocalypse, things like criticism, contempt, defensiveness, totally shutting down and becoming totally non-responsive, being more hostile

toward the other person. And what this shows is that negativity, it's kind of like negativity, ways, a whole lot, a whole lot. So you've got to have five times as many positive things to outweigh that one negative thing in order to keep the relationship feeling good for both of you and for the conflict to feel more gentle and constructive. And in ordinary, just kind

of discussing the events of the day, for example, the ratio needs to be about 20 to 1. So mostly a nice rich culture of fauna appreciation, saying thank you a lot, giving each other compliments, really listening to one another, turning towards each other's little bits for interest or connection are really the secrets of those successful couples. Well, and I contact the nodding your head like you're doing as you listen to it. Yeah, I mean positive things. Yeah, I'm very interested. Great smile.

All of those nonverbal things really lubricate the wheels of interaction. I'm Jay Shetty and on my podcast on purpose, I've had the honor to sit down with some of the most incredible hearts and minds on the planet. Oprah, everything that has happened to you can also be a strength builder for you if you allow it. Kobe Bryant. The results don't really matter.

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Listen to city of the rails on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Or cityoftherails.com. Yeah, no, I think it's everything you're saying is, it's so wonderful to hear it from the data point of view. And I do really love the fact that you keep bringing it back to the data and the research, because that just gives me more confidence that all these habits and principles that we want people to develop like emotional intelligence and the ability to listen and the ability to

be vulnerable enough to notice beauty in your partner or you know congratulate them or celebrate them. I think these are such beautiful habits that are often seen as such soft skills, but actually from the data, they're very strong and powerful. And what you're both saying, I mean, treat actually from what you both said, when was there a hypothesis you had or a belief that you think the world strongly has about relationships that actually the data completely disgoves? What was like the most shocking or surprising one were you like? Yeah, one of the ones that was really shocking was that when couples are talking about an area of conflict and they're neutral, they're not showing any emotion, that's good

so that if you can stay calm and you can really present your point of view that if you can stay calm and you can really present your point of view, unemotionally, it turns out to be very constructive. So most people were saying, you want to see fire and passion, otherwise it's a dead relationship. Not true at all, if you could be kind and gentle and even neutral, that was a good thing. So it was the reflection of calm as they

talked to each other that turned out to be so important. And that was really surprising. But I want to be sure that our listeners don't think that expressing anger is a bad thing. That is not true. So being passionate, being intense, expressing anger, and so on is fine, depending on how you voice it. So if you're expressing anger with an eye statement that describes how you feel as opposed to pointing a finger at your partner and describing them as flawed or to blame, that's very different.

Very different. So, there may be a lot of passion in saying, I'm furious about this. God bless it. You know, I can't take this anymore. Well, you're describing yourself, and that's okay. That's a fine way to express anger. And anger is a very normal human emotion. So we're not trying to say that you should have

a frontal lobotomy and become, you know, Dr. Spock, we're saying, do your best to become, to be gentle, but also to be real with what you're feeling, as long as you describe yourself and not go into criticism of your partner. I think that's a great distinction. I'm really, really happy you made that point because I think you're spot on that,

for a lot of people, they won't be able to achieve that neutrality, but if you are going to be angry and passionate, then it needs to be reflective of how you feel as opposed to the other person's weaknesses or flaws or mistakes or wrongdoings. And I think that's such a useful thing to remember in an argument. Such a useful thing to remember in an argument, because-hmm. Such a useful thing to remember in an argument,

because I think from a defensive point of view, it's so easy to start blaming the other person. And I love the way Julie you described the five to one, because I think the reason why I like those small insights is because I feel for so many people. Sometimes it's the opposite where someone does one thing right and five things wrong, but where someone does one thing right and five things wrong, but because they do one thing right, you kind of overshadow all the five things

that go wrong. It's often that ratio is flipped the other way. Because that becomes your norm, you just become so grateful for that one thing that goes right. People must accept a challenging relationship and situation. So I really love the way you both clarified those. And you also said that 69% of conflicts and marriages are never solved. That, when I read that, I was like, I want to know why that is, but also what can couples do to really understand what it is that needs solving,

because it's so true. But yeah, so let's go into why that is, because couples argue they fight, they discuss stuff. Why is it never solved? And second of all, how can we start solving it? Okay, great. Great question. So this, again, came out of the data where when couples were brought in, every two or three years and asked to discuss a problem, they would be discussing exactly the same problem

for over 20 years. And the only thing that would change was their fashion and their hairstyle. That was it. Now everybody's in sweatpants when they have these color items, right? So what we saw is that there were this 69% of problems that never got solved.

And what we then understood is that first of all, they're based on lifestyle preferences, so differences in lifestyle and differences in personality as well. And they often have beneath the surface, they have some underlying dreams, some underlying yearning that may be related to their earlier history,

may be related to either positive history or negative history, traumatic history sometimes. But often these perpetual problems, the positions have these deep, seeded roots in them that also sometimes are existential. What gives that person a sense of meaning and purpose in life? So we discovered that no, we're not going to solve these problems, but what couples can do is develop their understanding for the other person's position at a much deeper level. And out of that understanding develop compassion enough that they can then form little temporary compromises around the edges of the issue.

So let me give you an example. So John and I are very, very, very different. I'm super adventurous. John is an avid endorsement, as he likes to say. He hates going outside because he'll get dirty and stuff like that. And I go climb mountains and pretty soon. Yeah, I'm surprised. Go to Mount Everest Base Camp.

Go to Mount Everest, stuff like that when I'm 50. So when I, for example, when I told John that I wanted to take 15 women or 12 women and go to Mount Everest Base Camp and celebrate turning 50 that way, he first said, are you absolutely out of your mind? And I said, yes, and I still want to go. And so we had a big discussion about that. And the discussion included John asking me questions, and those questions are part of one of our big interventions. Questions like, are there any ethics, values, or guidelines

that are part of your position on this? What's the childhood history or background that may be related to this? Why is it so important to you? What's your ideal dream here about this? Is there an underlying purpose or life meaning for you? So John asked those questions. And in turn, I asked him the same questions regarding his not wanting me to go. And by the end, of course, I won, and I got

to go. And he didn't read into thin air about the 1996 Mount Everest debacle until after I got back. I love that. That's a great example. And I'm so glad you do my differences. And And I'm so glad you took my differences. And me and my wife, I would consider that we're also very different. My wife's a very rooted, grounded individual loves also being around family and home and safe secure environments. And I'm kind of high risk and like time new things and experimenting a lot and having new experiences.

And I'm very kind of like flexible and adaptable constantly. I don't need a lot of sameness to feel happy. And she kind of prefers that. And we've been through so many changes on our relationship from moving country to moving homes to not being around family. And you know, all of these changes that we've been through over the last four years that we've been married. And it's been incredible to have, and I think the problem is the people from the outside

often think were very similar. And the hearing about how you overcome a difference, and respect each other's differences, and gain a respect by having a conversation, is so important because I think people just think, oh, well, if you don't want to come with me, then why, how can I be with you? You know, and you don't want to go with John in the first place. I mean, you wanted to go it so enough because you know, I think that's great. Like, just having that awareness is such a breakthrough because I feel like, I feel like so many partners expect their partner to do everything with them. And they want to share their favorite experiences. So whether it's if I have friends who are hugely into a sport and they really want their partner to come with

them, or they have a hobby like a few of my friends would always want their partners to be in the audience if they were performing or doing something. But often it's just not that it's not that person who's not interested in you. It's just they're not interested in that thing What is you know, we hear this a lot in relationship and there's no one better to ask than you because you can talk about the day to And what is the role of compromise and does that even exist like what is compromise? What is the right way of compromising and how is it effective? And how is it affected? Go ahead. Okay.

So we figured that one out too, from the couples and from the data. So we call it the two oval method, otherwise known as the bagel method. So here's what it looks like. Basically, when you're trying to reach a compromise, you take a piece of paper, I'll give you just the exercise, how to do it.

You take a piece of paper, you draw a big bagel or donut on your piece of paper. And in the inner circle, you think about your position on this issue, and you write down what aspect of my position on this issue? Can I not compromise on? That is so true to my heart, my soul, who I am, my identity, that if I gave it up, I would, you know, be a bag of bones. I can't do it. Then in the, you write down what those components are that are part of your position. Then in the outer circle, you write down, what are you more flexible about?

And people are typically more flexible about kind of the newspaper reporter questions. When, where, how, what, how much will it cost, how long will things last, when will it begin? You know, those more nitty-gritty detailed questions that people tend to be more flexible about. Then, you come together, you share what you wrote down in your circles, and then talk about where is their overlap, especially in the flexible areas. Where is their overlap? So here's a compromise. Let me give you an explanation of why those core needs are so central to you. So your partner can understand those and respect them. Yeah, right, right, great. So

an example of this was a couple who were getting ready to retire. They both wanted to sell their house. But one wanted to sail around the world. It was a heterosexual couple. So guess which one wanted to sail around the world? In this case, the stereotype fits, and it was the guy. The woman had a farm that had been in her family for over 100 years.

And she wanted to take her place living on the farm with her husband, as a long line of ancestors had done before her. Where was the farm located? Iowa. So how are you gonna, you know, sail around the world from Iowa? This is not an easy thing.

So when they divvyed up their positions on the issue, they realized that there was a lot of flexibility about whose dream went first, how long would it last, how much would they spend, where would they go, et cetera. And so they came up by overlapping and discussing those flexible areas, as well as discussing how to honor each other's dreams, which is very important here, that center circle for each person. They figured out that they would sail first for one year and get as far as they could. Then they put the boat up on dry dock,

go to the farm, live in Iowa for one year, and see how that felt. And at the end of two years, they would have both honored, had their dreams honored, and supported by the other person. And then they would figure out what to do next. That's how compromise works. Yeah, that's beautiful to hear that. I love that. I remember when I first got the opportunity to move to New York for my work and this came as a surprise a month after we got married and bought a house five minutes away from my mother and father and though because my wife told me our whole relationship that she would never, ever want to move further than five minutes away from her parents. And a month later after we got married, I get this,

this is four years ago, I get this huge career break that literally changes my life. And is what I would call that core pre-priority of of something I would never negotiate on because it's so important to me. I can say no to it. My wife didn't talk to me for two days. We've talked about this publicly. We shouldn't talk to me for two days. She was processing it and figuring out what it meant. It's been so interesting because I remember saying to myself, we will fly you back every week, for every weekend of every month. That's what it takes for you to feel that you can be in both places. Or I can go, you can stay here and we can see how that works.

And then we can figure out what works for both of us. And thankfully, we've both been living in the States for the last four years. And my wife thinks it's one of the best decisions she ever made. But in the beginning, it was really, really tough to figure out what was the right thing to do. And I'm grateful for her approach and my approach. We actually did that in a very informal way, but those stages sound very close to how we processed it. So that's why it was very reassuring, very reassuring to hear that what a great way of defining compromise because I think people throw around the word compromise and they just think it's them big rudgingly doing what the other person wants.

Right. Not a good definition. No, no, that's surrender. That's not compromise. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay, so I want to move further on in into chronology of a relationship and I want to ask an extreme question because I think so many people are fortunate deal with this today.

It's like, what do you do when you find out that your partner is cheated on you? You know, I hear about this far too often, both in marriage or in just dating. And I feel so many people unfortunately go through so much pain in that scenario because they're my children, they might have family involved. You know, whatever it is, it's never easy. And so what is the data and research say around when you find out your partner's had an affair, what's been the best way of operating that? Like what are the next moves from that situation

at work. Okay. Well, first of all, we have done some research on that and there have been other people who have written about it. One in particular is named Shirley Glass, who was Ira Glass's mother, a fantastic psychologist, and she treated a fair couple throughout her career, and wrote a book called Not Just Friends, which was a fabulous, fabulous book. And what she recognized, and we also saw this in our work, is that the person who's been betrayed suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder, which means they can't control the thoughts of their partner with somebody else that are coming into their mind all the time.

They're alternating between emotional numbness and then exploding. They are just beside themselves with the pain of it and their whole world has vanished. So what has to happen that John and I are now doing a study on, but we've really seen thus far clinically anecdotally really seems to work is a three couples who want to who want to take their relationship after the cheating yeah I want to stay together right okay it's a three phase process that takes a therapist you need a very good therapist who is not in the pulpit judging because both people are human people make mistakes and both people need to feel supported and compassion from their therapist. So first we call it the atonement stage where the person who was betrayed begins by asking the person who had the affair, any questions they want to about the affair aside from asking the specifics about what kind

of sex did you have. Because if they asked that last question, they're bound to have more pictures come into their mind that will traumatize them even further and that's not going to be helpful. But asking how much did you spend, what did you buy him or her, where did you go overnight, you know, and so on. So asking a lot of questions and that person also needs to be supported to express their feelings about the affair. They have to express those feelings. And again by saying, I feel so

betrayed, I feel destroyed. My whole world has blown up. And not here defensiveness in response, not talk about the marriage yet, not yet, but instead respond with empathy, with sorrow, with remorse, and ask maybe over and over and over again, not necessarily for forgiveness, but saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And the other partner who's been betrayed hears that. And that may take a while. Then, and again, PTSD has to be underscored as part of what may be causing the explosions at home

when images come in or a nightmare happens, that person may explode the next day. So that's PTSD going on. Then finally, after atonement calms down, you're moving to what we call a tumult. And a tumult is finally the stage where you're talking about the marriage itself and what went wrong.

And what we've seen is that typically most affairs are about feeling lonely. They're about feeling empty. They're about not feeling listened to. They often occur in marriages where the conflicts have been so awful that people have stopped expressing what they need and then they get lonely. And so after a while, that loneliness takes hold of one and that other person starts to talk to somebody else of whatever their sexual preference might be of whatever their sexual preference might be, and eventually that friendship moves into something else. What Shirley Glass says that I love is that the walls and windows get reversed.

In a healthy marriage, there needs to be a window open between the two partners with a wall around the couple that protects from outside influences of other people or other partners. Those get reversed where the person doing the affair is opening a window to the affair partner and closing off the marital partner. So that's why affairs happen. So you re-look at the marriage, you process past regrettable incidents, bad fights they had that never got resolved. They talk

about their conflicts and re-learn how to talk gently and compassionately about public, so they're not so afraid to have them. They develop new rituals of connection, they work on their friendship, on turning towards each other's needs, expressing their needs, and then things can get better over time. And finally, in the last phase,

which is called attachment attach or attachment, they then hopefully recommit to each other and to the marriage. That may be the stage for some couples, not for all, where they re-initiate having sexuality again in their lives together. And things are deepened during that phase in terms of loyalty and commitment. That's how you do it. Takes a while. Oh, for sure. No. And I love the stages because I think there was just so much patience in what you were saying.

And if you are trying to make it work or you're even if you're trying to move on, it's going to be a patient process. It's always nice to be able to be aware of which stage of my ad or which step am I moving into. I want to be respectful of both of you time and I want to say today is a bit absolutely mind blown. This is incredible. I feel like we need to do multiple episodes a year where we dive deeply into all different

aspects and facets of a relationship because I've learned so much today and I'm so excited for my community and audience to hear this one because I feel like it's just going to help them and guide them so much and I want to make sure that we direct them in the way of your books and work that you feel is most useful to them. So where should they go? If people want to learn more about all this incredible research and data and apply to their lives, where should they start and where should they go? Where do you recommend? And the area of affairs in the book to get is what makes love last. By him.

Yeah. By John Gottman. And and part of what what Julie hasn't talked about is that in order to really develop this therapy to help couples who want to stay together after an affair, we also have to study couples who maintain loyalty and avoid betrayal. So you can't understand one side of a process without understanding the other side. And that's how we really built this therapy. Okay. So one place you can go is www.gatman.com.

Eight dates, essential conversations for a lifetime of love is wonderful to explore, not only this new relationship is it terrific, but maybe one you've been together a long time and is a little stale. You can deepen that relationship as well. And we're also, we're creating, especially because of COVID, we're creating an app that puts all of our interventions and exercises and assessments of relationships to help couples that is much cheaper than workshops and therapy. We want to democratize people's access to relationship help. And that's through an affective software with an A affective software, Inc. So those are all places to go to learn more.

I love them. So glad you're doing that. I think that's going to be so useful to people. And I can imagine I can't wait to share them my audience. I think my community would absolutely love tools like that. Oh, thank you, Jay. Yeah. It's be very helpful. It's a digital world, despite me being TI, which is called

technologically impaired. You're not so incredible. I'm not going to be. We end every on purpose episode with what's called a fast fight, which means every single one of these questions has to be answered with one word or a maximum of one sentence. So these are like super fast five. You can both one after the other. So the first question is, what was the biggest lesson you learned in the last 12 months? That's one sentence kind of.

that I love staying home. How about you? How much I love you. I love that. I can try to, John, I'm definitely more like you in the relationship. I think I told my wife I love it like a million times a day. That's great. I can see in this interview. Okay.

Second question. What was the last kind of thing your partner did for you? Hmm. Let's see, two things. In order for me to do clinical work for eight hours today, he took our new puppy this morning, fairly early to Doggie Day Camp, which is an hour round trip. And not only that, but he went and picked him up.

I love that. What a big, sweetie. Yeah, I mean, she made a wonderful dinner last night. And we sat and watched the TV together eating our dinner and playing with the puppy. So, it's possible. I love it. Question number three, what's the best place to meet someone today? Poo.

God, that's a good question. Oh, holy cow. What's the research I'm fascinated by that? Because I feel like that's such a big question. I would love for you to research that because the number one question people tell me is like, where do I meet that person? Where do I find that? How about a political protest?

We can ask on just where, you know, if you like wearing makeup, where a lot of makeup. All right. John, do you have an answer for that one? If you can make a law that everyone in a relationship had to follow, what would it be? Never give your partner unwanted touch, i.e. violence or sexual abuse. My answer would be, uh, adopt the model that when your partner is in pain

or stressed and wants to talk about his or her feelings, the world stops and you listen. You know, Jude, why? Amazing, my. That's it. And the final question of your fast five, if there's one thing that couples should avoid in relationships, what would that be? Contempt. Contempt.

Meaning not only putting down your partner with a criticism, but doing it from a place of superiority. It not only fries the relationship, it hurts the immune system of the listener. Yeah, absolutely. And the speaker. And the speaker. A little less so.

But yeah, how about you? One thing to avoid. Taking your partner for granted. Great answer. Good one. Fantastic. John and Julie, you are amazing. This was so much fun and everything you shared,

like I said, I think people are gonna benefit so much. You can't wait to share it. I can't wait for you. Apt effective software, as you said, ink, I can't wait for it. And thank you so much as you said, ink, I can't wait for it. And thank you so much to both of you for taking this time and being with me. And really, really looking forward to meeting again

in person and hopefully we can do another interviewed person at some point as well. That'd be great, Jay. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. And I appreciate you both so much. And your questions were deeply intelligent and beautiful.

Thank you. Yeah. I'm Yvonne Gloria. And I'm Maite Gomes-Rajón. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast. Hungry for History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages, from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Listen to Hungry for History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War Two? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to kidnap her lover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who are left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Conquer your New Year's resolution to be more productive with the Before Breakfast Podcast in each bite-sized daily episode, time management and productivity expert, Laura Vandercam,

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