On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Judd Apatow: Fear of Rejection Holding You Back? THIS Trick Will Silence the Inner Critic & Help You Feel Confident to Create

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

What does rejection feel like to you? What do you usually do to move past that feeling? Today, Jay sits down with legendary filmmaker and comedian Judd Apatow for a vulnerable and inspiring conversation on life, creativity, and resilience. Known for shaping modern comedy with films like The 40-Year-Old Virgin and Knocked Up, Judd opens up about the struggles behind the success, sharing how self-doubt, early failures, and rejection shaped him into the storyteller he is today. He reflects on the power of mentorship, the lessons he learned from icons like Gary Shandling, and why finding your voice often requires patience, humility, and a willingness to fail forward. Together, Jay and Judd explore how comedy can be both healing and revealing, born not just out of joy but often out of pain. Judd talks about the risks he took, the creative experiments that didn’t work, and how those “failures” became stepping stones toward lasting impact. He reveals how therapy, mindfulness, and even family dynamics have influenced his work, and why the most meaningful measure of success is not box office numbers, but whether your work truly connects with people. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Find Your Creative Voice How to Balance Ambition with Presence How to Use Mentorship to Grow How to Push Through Self-Doubt How to Create With Authenticity How to Learn From Rejection How to Protect Your Flow State The setbacks you face today can become the foundation of your greatest breakthroughs tomorrow. Stay patient with the process, stay true to yourself, and keep moving forward with faith that your story has meaning and impact waiting to unfold.  With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:09 What Made You Laugh Out Loud? 03:52 Raising Children Without Pressure 05:22 Never Limiting a Child’s Potential 08:09 The Most Memorable Interview 09:44 Discovering a Personal Path 10:27 From Fan to Friend 11:58 Running a Show Together 14:24 Growing with Creative Peers 15:58 Why Failure Leads to Success 18:00 The Power of Putting Yourself Out There 20:27 Why Success Takes Time 23:21 Creating Something Original 27:00 A Sliding Doors Moment 28:15 Realizing the Power of Choice 30:22 Becoming Part of Another’s Success 31:40 Confronting Creative Blocks 34:06 Inside a Storyteller’s Mind 35:34 Choosing to Be Part of the Solution 38:00 Taking Creative Risks 40:34 Silencing the Inner Critic 43:27 The Real Formula for Comedy 47:26 The Pitfalls of Mocking Others 48:41 The Promise and Peril of AI 51:39 Letting Go of a Problem-Seeking Mind 54:13 Projecting Childhood Trauma at Work 57:47 Separating Emotions from the Work 01:00:09 Choosing the Right Collaborators 01:02:58 Learning to Lighten Up 01:05:27 What Leads to True Success 01:07:30 The Most Impactful Self-Help Books 01:13:13 The Pain Behind Comedy 01:17:14 Defining True Happiness 01:22:33 Exploring an Ayahuasca Experience 01:24:18 The Secret to a Lasting Marriage 01:28:05 Lessons to Share with Children 01:30:07 Being Direct Yet Constructive 01:31:48 Finding Drama in Good People 01:34:07 Why Mentorship Matters 01:38:09 Judd on Final Five Episode Resources: Judd Apatow | Website Judd Apatow | Instagram Judd Apatow | Facebook Sicker in the Head: More Conversations About Life and Comedy Comedy Nerd: A Lifelong Obsession in Stories and PicturesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to The Bright Side on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you overlooked at a piece of abstract art or music or poetry and thought, that's just a bunch of pretentious nonsense? That's exactly what two bored Australian soldiers set out to prove during World War II when they tricked the literary world with their intentionally bad poetry, setting off a major scandal. We break down the truth, the lies, and the poetry in between on hoax, a new podcast hosted by me, Lizzie Logan, and me, Dana Schwartz. Every episode, Hoax explores an audacious fraud or ruse from history.

Listen to Hoax on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I had to look at the failure as the path to success. I thought, well, every joke that doesn't get a laugh is teaching me what not to do. Sometimes we wait for the result to make us believe that we're worthy. But there's a moment that I think when you do what you love, you're like, oh no, I can do this. It's just a matter of time before people kind of figure it out. The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty. He won, the only. Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to listen, learn, and grow. Today on On Purpose, I welcome a true icon, Jud Apatel, one of the most influential storytellers in modern comedy and the filmmaker behind, just to name of you,

the four-year-old virgin, knocked up and funny people. Together, we explore how to tap into your creativity, push through self-doubt, huge humor to get through tough moments and build the kind of resilience that lasts in both life and work. We'll be diving into Judd's newest book, Comedy Nerd, a visual memoir of his life and career. This book is epic. Honestly, I've been flicking through it and taking moments out that I want to talk about today for the past couple of weeks, and I can't wait for you to grab it. Please welcome to On Purpose, Judd Apatow.

Judd, it's great to have you here. It's great to be here. Truly, thank you so much for being here. I'm, like, I'm so fascinated by your career, your life. And I feel like there's so many directions with which we can go. And that's my favorite kind of person to sit down with. But the first thing I want to ask is, you have a book called Comedy Nerd. You've made people laugh for decades.

What was the last thing that made you laugh out loud? There's a TV show on Hulu called Such Brave Girls. Oh, I've not seen it. Okay. I just, I'll just recommend that to everybody. You didn't make this show. There's not a show. I have nothing to do with it other than my daughter, Maude said to me,

I think I've seen the funniest thing ever, and then we watched it together and we went, yeah, that's about it. And I've been catching up on The Righteous Gemstones, which I was behind on. Okay, I've not seen that either. You've got two good ones. Great two recommendations. I love that. I feel like you and your family just have such a sweet, fun relationship.

Are you always watching shows together and connecting and recommending? What does that look like? Yeah. I mean, when they're young, you're just, you know, watching the Iron Giant 800 times in a row with them or toy story. And then at some point, you go, I wonder if they could enjoy the Blues Brothers. And you try to slip, you know, some Caddyshack or Ghostbutches in there.

And maybe a third of them they like. Yeah. Like, you kind of can't get them to love the stuff that you loved. Yeah, yeah. But then every once in a while, you know, when they were young, I'd walk by their room and they're like watching Anchorman or something. And I think, okay, they're beginning to get it. How long did it take them to get your sense of humor and your style?

I don't know. I used to joke all the time. but like they just so don't think I'm funny. And, you know, I would go do stand-up and they would be like, how long did you put them through it for? I'm like 15 minutes, like, oh, God, you know? Like they felt so bad for anybody that had to listen to me. Anyone who paid to see you.

Exactly. But I think that's a fun thing about kids is they just have no respect for you whatsoever. I mean, maybe hidden. Like, everyone saw a little sneak out. Like, oh, I guess they did like that. But they think it's funny to hold back. Yes.

You know, like Maud is in the movie. funny people. And the running joke for her in the house is she's never seen it. Right. So when she comes over, I'll just have it playing on a TV and then she'll just leave the room. That's amazing. She just decided this one I will never watch. That's amazing. What's her reason? Why does she want to watch it? I think she just realized that it bothered me and now it's a lifelong gag. That's what it is. That's exactly it. I don't have kids yet, but I can totally relate to the fact that if I thought something my dad did was cool, I did not want him to know. Exactly. Like I did not want him to know.

And you're just going to be prepared for that as a dad, I guess, and a mom. I saw one clip where I think you and your wife were talking, and I think you said that her, like, best feeling of being a parent was when you realized your daughter's actually got along or something like that. Oh, that was a big moment. Yeah. Because, you know, when they don't get along for a while, then you're like, wait a second, they called each other.

Oh, my God, they text each other now. And then you just get excited that, you know, the relationship you always thought would happen, happens. How did you get over that as a parent? I think so many parents struggle with that. Obviously, we all want to be liked. You want to be liked by your kid. Yes.

And this is the person you love more than anything else in the world. But for years, they don't love you. Like, I always say, like, I feel like I was grateful to my parents when I was like, 21. I could do all those years for me to turn around and be like, thank you, mom, and, like, in a deep, sincere way. Yeah. I may have said it before then. How did you deal with that? Like, it seems like you have a really great relationship with your kids.

And how did you get over that hump of not them seeing you as cool and funny? and all the rest of it when you'd achieve so much. Well, I think that they, you know, I think we all got a kick out of each other. Like, we always thought that they were really funny and we enjoyed their personalities. And so even when, you know, you go through the rough middle school years, you know, we're still having fun most of the time.

But I also think like we're like the kind of parents who are like, you know, don't go to college, Zand, leave me alone. Like we weren't like the pressure parents. Yeah. You know, we were trying our best to, to, say, you know, just figure out what you want to do and, you know, chase your passion. And that's the main thing I realized later, which is people are always obsessing on grades or discipline.

But the thing you're really hoping your kids have is some sort of fire to chase a dream. Yes. And I had never thought about that before. Oh, I need my kids to have some ambition, some energy to take a risk and go after something. And so, you know, when I saw that both of them did, you know, that was a great, great relief. Yeah. How were you in school? Did you get good grades?

I was like a very mediocre, mediocre student. I went to school on Long Island, and they used to do this thing where they would test you, I guess like in sixth grade, and they would decide how smart you were, basically. And they would put you in track one, which was the smartest, track two, which is kind of most people. Track three, kids having a problem. And if you were put, like, me in track two, it was really hard to get them to ever switch you to a class and track what. So I always thought like, that kind of messed me up because it was very early. like 12, where they basically said,

this is the limit of your intelligence. You know, that, like, really bugged me. You'd see, like, the smart kids go to class. And you could kind of tell that the track one teachers were probably a little cooler than the other ones. And so, but I got my act together. I went to USC film school and studied screenwriting. But how I got in was I just wrote a really funny essay.

My grades weren't amazing. I just sent in a couple ideas for movies, but my essay was, it was meant to be funny. I just described what the buildings would look like that I would give them the money to build. So I just kept promising them how much money I would donate. It was basically the college scandal in 1985. And I think it made them laugh.

I said, you know, you think that George Lucas building is nice? Get ready for the Judd building. But I still have not given them any money. Is that happening? I was about to ask. Are we getting a Judd building? Just so that they're not part of a bad agreement, I literally have never given them a penny.

I'll go speak there all the time, but I don't want them to be caught in anything. Yeah. Have you ever reconnected with any of your, like, school or high school teachers or anyone else who taught you and you had any interactions with back then that you remember now? Well, you know, the man who ran the media program and the high school radio station that I used to interview comedians at was named Jack Demacey and we're still good friends. And he was the first person to say to all of us, you know, treat this radio station like it's real and just, you know, use it. use it. And so we would like call up and try to figure out how to get free tickets and free books and... Live on... Yeah, we would just like use it.

You know, people were interviewing politicians and sports people. My friend was interviewing bands like R.E.M. And then one day my friend was like, you should try to interview comics because he knew I was into it. And then one day I got an interview with Steve Allen. And then I got an interview with Howard Stern, Sandra Bernhardt. And

that became how I educated myself about comedies. I did 50 interviews in high school. with like Seinfeld and Leno. And as I look back now, I go, it helped. Like, they did give me good information. And most importantly, they were nice to me, which I think made me feel safe trying to get in the business

because I thought, oh, there's people like that in there. Yes, yeah. What was the most memorable interview that you remember for yourself at that time? Because you were 15 years old. Yeah, I was 15, 16 years old. I mean, yeah, Martin Short, I interviewed when he was promoting SCTV. and he was just so funny. I was always amazed when anyone would try to make me laugh

because I was just a kid. And I just saw, wow, this is the nicest person in the world. They're really, like, going for it with me. You know, some people would seem like, oh, no, this is a kid. I didn't want to do this. They'd be, like, fine, but a few people would be really funny. Jerry Seinfeld was hilarious and talked to me about how to write jokes and gave me examples of jokes he was working on.

And that all, you know, stayed with me forever. Yeah, it's so subtle, I feel. feel like in those years, the things that you were around and the people that you're around. And I wish everyone got work experience like that. I mean, that sounds amazing. Well, it was also a lesson in how to treat people. Yes. Because, you know, I was this young person and I would go in to talk to someone.

And for someone like Jerry Seinfeld to say, I'm going to sit with you for 45 minutes and really take all your questions seriously and thoughtfully. Yeah. And that was a big deal. Yeah. It's such an amazing experience and entry into the industry, too. like you said, oh, if I become like these people, then I can still be a good person and a nice person. Yeah. And I didn't realize that to like a few years ago. Like, oh, that was a big thing about

how I try to handle myself in the business was I saw these people like Harold Ramos. And they were just so kind and funny that I just thought, oh, that's the vibration you want to go for. Yeah. Did you ever worry about it? I feel like everyone has so many thoughts on the industry. Did you ever have a negative idea of the industry or worry or fear that, it would change you or make you different, or in any way, change your path? I was just really excited by it. I think as a kid in the 70s and 80s, just variety TV, Bob Hope and Saturday Night Live at Richard Pryor, it seemed so exciting.

And I also thought, there's not that many people in comedy. Back then, it really felt like all of comedy was 100 people. So for some reason, I thought, I can get in there. I think I can get a job in there. And so I really was just just. determined to figure out, what is the path? You know, how do you do it? Yeah, I heard an interview where you were talking about

how you almost grew up in comedy with all these amazing other people that are all icons in their own right as well, like Jim Carrey and Adam Sondland. And you were almost like, you were like, we all grew up with our friends in our career. And I was thinking, what was it that allowed you all to be friends and not competitors and not see each other as your arch-rivals or your art and nemesis in that sense

and actually say, oh, no, you said in that interview, you were like, I saw them as friends. And I was like, wow, that's special. It's unique. I think it's different for everyone. Like, for me, I just thought, I can't compete with Jim Carrey. I can't compete with Adam Sandler.

I had an awareness that these were very special people. I mean, they were great friends and remain and are so nice. But back then, just as a fan, even when I was, you know, around Adam, where Jim, I always thought, oh, that's the guy. That's going to be the guy. You know, it was like hanging out with Charlie Chaplin or something. And it just turned out to be true that they were the people who were going to change everything. And so I never felt competitive.

Sometimes I was depressed. Like, I had lost the competition. That's really what I thought was, oh, wow, I'm not built like that. Yeah. You know, if you're around Jim Carrey, you're like, yeah, I can't do that. I can't think that. I mean, I used to help him at writing jokes and punching up scripts and stuff. So that felt like the greatest thing ever that he trusted me enough to be a part of his creativity in any way.

Well, well, that's a great point too. Like I was looking at from the other angle, but I love the lens you took it through, which is then how did you, how did you maintain your motivation and your drive when you're looking around and you're thinking, God, this guy's ahead of me, this guy's going to be the next big thing? Yeah. Who am I? How did you channel that feeling that could lead to depression and giving up to actually going, well, no, I still have something to say. I think I just thought something's going to happen. I don't know what it is.

I started out as a comedian and I was studying screenwriting and I didn't really have a vision of if I was going to be an actor. I wanted to be a comedian. I didn't really think that much about being a director. I thought about being a writer a little bit. And everyone was jockeying to break in. And suddenly Jim Carrey was on in Living Color. And then Adam got Saturday Night Live.

And I was beginning to write some HBO specials. I wrote for Tom Arnold and Roseanne was one of my first gigs. And then I met Ben Stiller. And we created a sketch show, the Ben Stiller show together. And suddenly that was happening. And out of some weird fluke, even though I was very young, we both ran the show, which was weird. We didn't really climb the ladder. we got a show on the Fox network.

And so I was just trying to not screw it up. And Ben was a genius. So I was watching what he was doing and trying to figure out how I could help him run the show and not ruin this opportunity. And, you know, he got canceled after 12 episodes. But we won an Emmy six months later. And so it became this interesting.

How did it cancel and win an Emmy? It was a funny thing because I think how many people really liked it. It was on at 7.30 against 60 men. It was a very weird time slot, and Ben was really trying a lot of new things in comedy. You know, Bob Oedekirk and Andy Dick and Gene Garofalo were on the show. And so we knew this, the head of the network didn't like it. And so the whole time we were like, oh, this isn't going to last long.

And six months later, we won an Emmy, and then people categorized us as people who were doing something interesting. Right. Almost like an alternative rock band. Like, we were the replacements or something. And I thought, well, that's pretty cool to be a failure. Yeah, to be a rebel. Yeah, yeah, to not get ratings. But certain people that I respect think what we did was great.

And so that kept me going for a while. Yeah, I love that for two reasons, because I remember reading Bob Agger's book, and he talked about how Steven Spielberg, Tarantino, George Lucas, that they would all premiere their movies to each other and ask for feedback. And when I read that, I was like, wow. And he goes on to talk about how they were so confident in their own style. And they so trusted that every person had their own style that they never felt someone was going to steal something

or take something off each other. And I thought, well, that's an incredible, incredible. And they're all young at this age. It's not like they're adults, but they're not mature people with wisdom. And for them to have that at that point. And it sounds like you all have the same where you're helping each other with jokes, you're building shows together, you're running together.

Like it almost feels like the comedy version of that. If that was the film version, this is the comedy version. Well, when I was young, we would watch Saturday Night Live or Monty Python or Second City TV, and it was these groups of comedy people, these communities. Where would you do this? You know, we would just be on TV. You know, you'd be home and you'd watch, you know, Monty Python would be on PBS when I was a kid. And you would see them and think, oh, maybe they weren't, but to me they were all buddies.

Yeah. Right. So Saturday Night Live felt like a group of friends. I'm sure they weren't. I'm sure like a couple words. You were watching this with Jim and with... Yeah. So in my head, I was like...

This is so fun that like there's a community here in Los Angeles of people trying to break in to comedy. And I realized, oh, that was the goal really, maybe more than even the work, was like to find that community of like-minded people to have fun with. What convinced you? What was the first moment you were convinced that I'm funny, I can write funny, I can do funny. When did that happen in that journey and process? I'm trying to figure out when I thought I was doing well because I was very comfortable not being good because when I did all the interviews, they all said, it takes like seven years to find your voice. So in my head, I thought, oh, I started stand up at 17.

So when I'm 24, I'll be great. And so when I was 19 and I was terrible, I thought, perfect. This is where I'm supposed to be right now. So I had this clock that was very aware that this was going to take time and that I had to, I had to look at the failure as the path to success. And so I thought, well, every joke that doesn't get a laugh is teaching me but not to do. And then I'm trying to think of the first thing that I thought was very funny.

Yeah, that you thought, not that the result worked. Because I think that's a really interesting part, right? I feel like sometimes we wait for the result to make us believe that we're worthy. But there's a moment that I think when you do what you love, you're like, oh, no, I can do this. It's just a matter of time before people kind of figure it out. Yeah, I started writing jokes for comedians, like George Wallace and Taylor Negron. And then I got hired to write jokes for Tom Arnold when he first moved to town. And everyone was like, who's this guy that's with Roseanne?

And he was trying to figure out his point of view and stand-up. And so I was a part of that. And then we did a bunch of HBO specials where he would try to solve the world's problems, like reality, comedy specials. And we would write these setups for these reality pieces, which were film sketches. And Roseanne and Tom would get big people to be in him. Frank Zappa was in one. Fred Willard, I got Jim Carrey to do one of these

intros and Stiller and so these little intros were funny and so maybe those were the first things that they shot like, oh my God, I wrote a joke for Frank Zappa and it got a laugh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that gave me some confidence. Yeah, to see Martin Moll do your bet

and just go, wow, he's my favorite and I think I didn't screw him up. I think I gave him a good joke there. Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, the success, the failure to success piece is so interesting. I saw somewhere you said something like, you heard that someone sold their 10th script.

And so you felt you could not sell nine and it would take time. And I love that idea that you said, hey, I started at 17 and it takes seven years to be a great comic. And so at 24, I think the reason why I'm picking those two things that you've said is today I feel like a lot of young people just feel like they have to be successful tomorrow because there is a 16-year-old who has 100 million followers on TikTok or there is a 21-year-old that is a billionaire or whatever. it may be. And now you're aware of what everyone's achieving, not just your classmates or the people

you're around. And I wonder if you've ever thought about, especially with your daughters going into the industry too, how do you help them reconcile that pressure and that timeline that's just totally shifted where you can't take seven years to become an icon anymore? You should be an icon tomorrow. Yeah, I think that that must be tough on everybody trying to do anything. Because I look back when I was living with Adam Sandler and I always think no one was paying attention to us so we would go to the improv every night

and Adam would experiment and do weird characters, do Cajun man out of the blue and just do all these weird things and no one was judging it, no one was taping it, no one was commenting about it. So there really was this gestation period where you could be really weird and funny and take chances and really fail some nights

really kill other nights and so the idea of people paying attention to that, where When you're really young, you feel the need to put yourself on the internet probably is not great for everybody. Because it's also really fun failing when no one's watching. Yeah. It's fun to play a club of one in the morning in front of 30 people and just do something wild just to see if it would work. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And it's almost like you've got to kind of, even if you are putting yourself online, you've got to feel or remind yourself that no one's really watching right now. And, hey, people won't, they'll only watch my first videos after I get a following, which will be a following. which will be okay. And so there's some of that that you can kind of take forward. And I didn't direct until I was like 36, 37 years old, a movie. I had done some television before that.

And I was better because I wasn't given the shot earlier. I think I just knew how to do it. I was more mature. I had more to say. And so I don't necessarily think it's always great to get the big break right off the bat. I love hearing these stories and that's why I love the book,

Comedy Nerd, so much is because for me, like my first experience of Ben Stiller would have been Zoolander or you know I'm trying to think of the first Adam Sondon movie I watched in Click or maybe something like that and it's like you come across this work when or like with you it's like forgetting Sarah Marshall or like and you're talking about these huge hits that are like worldwide famous people you know people talk about them laugh for hours and that's your first experience then you realize wait a minute

this person had a TV show that had 12 episodes and got cancelled And then they went on to do something else. And so I feel like it's so sobering to hear it. And I feel like for our community that are full of creatives, people who are entrepreneurs, whether you're building a business, whether you're launching a podcast, whether someone's trying to create their own brand or clothing line, it's almost like there's so much pressure to be first and for your first thing to be your thing. Today, I feel.

And to know that your main thing that you do today that you're most known for, directing happened like you know to 20 years in 20 years in to you're doing the thing as opposed to two years in and you've continued to build an amazing career from it it wasn't it wasn't like that was lost time even you wouldn't say that from 17 to 36 was a waste of time no and there was there were fun projects that we you know we all learned how to make movies while making so you know i worked on a a kid's movie called heavyweights and that was the first movie that we shot and you know at the time was a little $10 million movie that made $20 million. And, you know, Ben Stiller played the bad guy.

Paul Feig was an actor in it. Keenan Thompson was in it. And our friend Steve Brill, who I wrote it with, directed it. And, you know, we didn't know what we were doing and made this kind of super weird Disney movie. And at the time, I guess, considered a failure. And now 30 years later, it's on Disney Plus right now. And it's like a big movie that kids keep watching.

So even the things where you were learning, sometimes over time, you realize, oh, people love that one. Even the things that at the time were failures or people didn't quite get what your point of view was. And then, you know, 20 years later, people say, oh, I love the cable guy. Yeah, yeah, I took a beating for that in 1996. And so that's the other thing you learned that it takes time for the world to really tell you if you succeeded or failed. You may, you know, think that you failed. And then you realize, oh, that never went away. Like, people like that. And they watch it. So now when I make things, I'm not as crazed about the immediate reaction because so many times I've seen things bubble back up. Yeah, that's why I guess making what you believe is so important.

And that's one of the reasons why I love TikTok so much, because songs that are five, 10 years old, yeah, 20 years old, some of them will have a full refresh because they hit the TikTok algorithm and now a whole new generation is in love with that song. Would you say, though, that you felt that way or you felt that way over time, did you, have you always made, stuff that you believed was funny and was made for you and your friends, or did you always put the audience at the heart of it? And it was their response that designed it. Because I feel like in creativity, there's these two versions where people are like, I don't care what anyone else thinks. I just make what I believe is funny and what my friends would laugh at. And then

there's like, no, I'm listening and learning and taking all the outside notes. And then that's what I'm focusing on. What was your process in the days when it wasn't working externally? I, you know, the main thing is, do you like it? So as a comedy fan or just someone who wants to make things that are great, that's the main bar. Like, do I like it? Am I proud of it? And then the second question is, how many people would like it the way I like it?

Because you can make something and you know, oh, this is a very niche idea. There's going to be a small crowd who likes it. And certain ideas you're like, I think this is great, but I actually think everyone will like it. Yeah. And I was always a big fan of James Brooks from when I was a kid, you know, watching the Mary Tyler Moore Show and broadcast news, and I got a chance to work on this show. He did called The Critic. And I just saw that he really cared if the audience liked it.

And he would always say, if the audience doesn't love it, you failed. Yeah. Like, it's as simple as simple as that. If they're not touched emotionally, if they're not laughing, you didn't do a good job. And, you know, he was a big supporter of table reads and getting input from people and doing test screenings and seeing how people were interpreting the work. So it's a weird process because on one level, you're trying to be an artist and stay true to what you believe in and what you like,

but you're also having this conversation with the audience because they don't get it, it's bad. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think now creativity has become, in one sense, more difficult because the idea of a trend and everyone doing the same thing is far more normal and common. Whereas in what you're talking about, there was a sense of uniqueness and ingenuity and everyone's kind of doing that. Like, Jim Carrey's not doing the same thing Adam Saan is doing. You're not doing the same thing.

If you're working with them on a project, that's different, but you're not doing the same thing they're doing. And it's almost become harder to stand out. In one sense, you could argue it's where I'm easier to stand up because lots of people are doing the same thing. Yeah. But it's almost like creativity has very much become about what the algorithm rewards. Exactly.

And I'm glad you have escaped that. era because I think that is really dangerous to doing something very unique because the next great thing is the thing no one saw coming. It's just the wild idea or a band that doesn't sound the way anyone else sounds. And so there's a lot of great stuff that all sounds the same in music. And you think, yeah, that's good, but it does sound like these other 12 things. And then there's this other thing where it's like radio head or whatever. And I think, and I think, especially in comedy, you do need someone to reinvent the whole thing. Yeah.

Like when you saw The Hangover and you were like, where did this come from? Yeah. Like it was so funny. Well, Anken Man was definitely that. Yeah, Will and Adam had their sensibility of what they wanted to be in a big comedy and there really wasn't an exact precedent for it. We loved movies like The Jerk and, you know, but they had their real take on, you know, this kind of arrogant American man who needed to learn some of.

some lessons and that changed, you know, the game for a lot of people. Yeah. What was your sliding doors moment or, like, moment of like, if that didn't happen, my life could have completely gone on a different trajectory or in a different format? I mean, there's so many of them. You know, I met Ben Stiller online at an Elvis Costello unplugged taping. And, you know, we thought of this sketcho idea and pitched it two weeks later. And everybody thought we were old, old friends.

and we had known each other for 14 days. Wow. And suddenly we were just, you know... And it was just natural from the moment you met. We just got along great and creatively were in sync. So if I didn't bump into Ben that day, I mean, that was, you know, a pretty big one. I remember seeing Jim Carrey in a comedy club and thinking, I think I've just seen the best comedian in the world.

And I called my manager. And I was like, you have to come see what Jim Carrey's doing. And that was a big moment just to witness it. And in movies, yeah, it's just like an opportunity. Steve Brill's saying, hey, I want to make a summer camp movie that's about a camp for overweight kids. And I just said, oh, that's hilarious. If you need help, let me know. And just him saying yes, you know, it changes your whole life.

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the woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity. Listen to Aunt CRISPR, the story of Jennifer Dowdna with Walter Isaacson on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the U versus You Podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, exploring childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape of our heroes,

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We migrated our family migrated here I'm like second generation Who not gonna have a trauma When you're from a state of States Listen to you versus you As part of Michael Tutta Podcast Network Available on the IHard Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast

Was there anyone that you felt was so good, but then, you know, didn't have the create, did you see people that you were like, oh my God, this person's amazing, but they didn't have the career that you thought they would? Yeah, there's so many comedians who are incredible, but they didn't necessarily transition to movies or sitcoms, but they remained the best comedians of all time. Or they were just road comedians who were just way funnier and better than other people. But some people never had that energy to go, all right, how would I work in a movie? I think it's a very specific understanding of yourself and story and what you do. Adam Sandler started writing screenplays for himself when he was right out of college when no one wanted him to write a screenplay for himself. No one was saying, hey, write a movie for you to star in. He just had the sense of, oh, this is a path, I think, that I could.

succeed in. And so even when no one thought you could be the lead of a movie, he sat in a room. I remember we sat with my friend Joel Madison. They just wrote a movie. And I was like, wow, you just sat down and wrote a movie. You can do that. You can just get out the computer and do that. But not everyone had that belief in themselves. Yeah. Why did you feel that turn was so important, that connection between comedy and then becoming a writer and director? Why did, why was that calling important to you? Where did that come from? Like you're saying, not everyone made that crossover. When I was interviewing people, some people like Harold Ramos said that he made a living

by selling jokes. And I just thought, oh, I don't have to make burritos. I could, like, sell a joke for 50 bucks a joke to somebody or, you know, because I had, you know, worked in a restaurant for a long time. It was a busboy and a dishwasher. So some of it was just, I need money. Yeah. And most comedians didn't want to write for other comedians because they wanted to be famous.

Yes, yeah. And I thought, I think I can do it and still do. my stand-up. And I think what it really was is I enjoyed hanging out with other comedians and I enjoyed collaboration. Like, my desire to be successful solo wasn't very strong. I think on some level I thought, oh, this is fun hanging out with Ben and I'm not looking to be isolated.

Yeah, that's such a great sense of self-awareness. I love that. Like, I love hearing that for everyone who's listening because I think there's, again, like, and I'm just looking at thinking about our community that watches our show. and listens to our show and has dreams and has aspirations and how often by wanting to be the face or wanting to be number one in a certain way, you can lose out on like this, you know,

tapestry of stories and experiences and amazing friendships and relationships where you're like, yeah, I just, I didn't really care about being the guy who was on the screen telling the joke. I was happy being the person who wrote and built these universes that these comedians played in. Yeah, it was so fun.

like I would go to Roseanne's house and just write jokes with her on Sunday. Yeah. Just go like at breakfast time, sit at her breakfast table with her. She'd bring out legal bads. And to me, that was success. I mean, almost to the point of if it didn't get much farther than that, I was already pretty happy. Like, wow, there are people that are the best at this who will let me be a part of their thing. And so I was just so excited to be allowed in the room.

You know, sometimes I joke that the only reason why I even wrote anything, was to get to be allowed in the room. Like, I had to prove I was credible to have these relationships with everybody. Yeah. When do you feel most creative and when do you feel most creatively blocked? I mean, I work so hard to try to figure that out.

I think it's just an ongoing search for flow state. And so I used to never understand anything about how the brain works. And so, you know, I would, you know, when I was young, I would write, my process was I would sleep. till noon. I would get up to write. I'd watch MTV, like, road rules or something. Like, I would just sit and watch TV for like six hours. And then at six, I'd think I'm going to write. Then I would eat dinner. And then after dinner at some point, I'd slowly move to the computer. Now it's like seven, eight o'clock at night. And then I would write to like two in the morning. And that was like

my flow. And I realized, oh, so it's almost like a post-food relaxation, burnt out all my interest in TV in the world and then my brain would just like get so tired it would relax and then stuff would come to me yeah but then you know when you have kids you can't work from eight till two in the morning and then you have to figure out oh i guess i have to almost set an appointment like okay from nine to 12 i'm just going to sit in this chair and that's something i learned from david milch you know who created deadwood who always said you can't think your way into writing you have to write your way into thinking. So if you just start writing, your brain will eventually go, oh, we're doing this now.

Yes. And that if you do it at a similar time, the second you hit the chair, your brain will go, it's time to do the thing that we do. And I even took a class on Flowstates, one of those Stephen Kotler classes. And it just totally worked. Like, it was kind of hilarious. And, you know, there were people giving advice about, all right, get up, don't have breakfast, just drink a little bit of black coffee, try to.

try not to eat lunch till noon. Don't let your office interrupt you. And then suddenly I realize, oh, I'm really getting a good four or five hours done just by listening to some very simple advice about not being distracted. Because I could look at the news feed on my phone and be in a bad mood for three days.

And a bad mood that will prevent me from being funny. I won't be able to go to my world of imagination because I'm thinking about some problem in the world. And so I really have to protect my mental stuff. to disappear into imagination. Yeah, yeah. How do you balance that then in staying informed and then, and does that ever inform your comedy?

Does that ever inform the messaging you want to put out there? I mean, yeah, as soon as the writing's over, I go deep down, you know, a terrible rabbit hole of tracking everything. And I have to, I have to, you know, be aware that it could just put you in a massive depression. Because we know too much. Like when I was a kid, we didn't really know what was happening in the, the world. Like I lived in New York and I knew a little bit about what like Ed Koch was doing. And I knew they were trying to capture the mob. And occasionally you hear about some crime or

or a murder. I didn't really understand what was happening in Congress as a kid. I watched the news all the time, even in like middle school. And now I know the major terrifying problems of every country in the world. And it's too much. It really is too much. And if you find it interesting, which I do. Like I'm fascinated by how politics work, how people treat each other. other, the problems of the world, the drama of crime, the drama of corruption, I could really, I could read it forever. I just find it so interesting. As a storyteller, too, like, look, that person was in this position, and there's the choice

they made. They could have gone this way or that way, and they went this way. So for me, one of my flaws is I'm looking at too much, and when I'm in a good writing groove, it's usually because I've found a way to limit it so that I could go in my head and see what's there. Yeah. Yeah, I read a study that said, we're exposed to more tragedy today in 24 hours than we were in our whole lifetime 25 years ago.

Just today, it's the equivalent of today that there was 11 Pearl Harbors in the last three days. And so I was depressed the other morning. And I thought, how would you not be depressed just based on what you read this morning? Yeah. Like it's a trauma response to all of that. So, you know, for me... What do you do with that?

What do you personally do with that? Because I feel like that's an issue everyone who's listening can relate. I mean, I try to find things that I can do to support people or organizations and causes that are fighting for values that I agree with. You know, every month I do a benefit at Largo in L.A.

For a different charity. You know, my first job was working for comic relief, the homeless charity. And so I've always tried to, you know, be connected to philanthropy. and, you know, then some part of your brain is like, okay, you're doing something. Yeah. You're doing something.

And it never feels like enough. Yeah. But I think everyone has to do something. Yeah. And just hope that this collective, that, you know, move certain causes forward and helps take care of people. Because it is rough to hear about so much suffering. Absolutely. And then, you know, the guilt response, like, should I be doing more?

So I try to spend some time every day thinking about it. And I remember I went and had lunch with Norman Lear, and Norman Lear had the newspaper out. And I said, what are you doing? And he said, this is something that Frank Sinatra taught me, which is he would open the paper every day, he would look for somebody in a bad situation, and then he would get on the phone and write him a check. And someone's house burnt down, like, he would just follow up, you know, and just someone's got a tragedy, Sinatra would just write him a check, not tell anybody, just, and Norman

you're trying to do that. So, you know, I like that type of thinking. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I feel like if you feel like you're a part of the solution, even a small part, then the big problem feels a little bit smaller. Yeah. And, you know, so you can go and go fund me or something and help out in some way. The hard part is you go and go fund me and there's two million people with really difficult problems. So that gets in your head. How do you choose? Also, who deserves it? You can make yourself crazy, but you still have to find a way to do it if you have the means. What was the biggest creative risk you feel you ever took?

I don't think of any of them really as creative risks. I usually just try to only work on things that I think can be really good that I care about. So it's not like there's any one decision. I just think, I want to be proud of everything I tried to do. And if it fails, I'd like to feel like I understand why I thought it could work. And I like for things to have a good heart and to say something positive. Yeah. I want to be aware of what I'm putting into the world.

It's almost easier to deal with failure when you really believed in what you were doing. Yeah. To some degree. Because if you didn't believe in it and then it fails, then you're like, well, I didn't believe in it anywhere. I knew it would fail. Well, it's a miracle that anything works because everything in comedy is an experiment. There's no precedent that lets you know this will definitely work. So you're always on the verge of massive humiliation and failure.

And then that's just the spirit of it. Like, I guess this will work. And sometimes things work for some people, but not other people. You go, oh, this does work, but for a way less people. And then some things, you know, out of the blue, like the entire world loves bridesmaids. Yeah. Right. And it's the same effort that everyone puts on.

And then just sometimes things, you know, connect in a big way. Yeah. Such a great movie. Such a great movie. Absolutely. There's something you say in the book. You say, in your book, Comedy Nerd, you say, when I stopped performing, to pursue my writing career, on some level I betrayed myself.

The truth was I didn't believe in myself. Yeah. So that's a part of that story, too, was that there was a sense of belief lost. Well, as a fan, I was aware the difference between me and the people that I was hanging out with. And I also felt very self-conscious. I look back and I think, oh, I think I was pretty in my head. I didn't really know who I was. I didn't have a strong point of view.

You know, some comedians are very, like, surreal. Some comedians are very angry, and they tell you how you should do this or that. And I was always right in the middle. I was just more talking about things I was confused about. And I didn't have solutions to anything. And I wasn't that weird. So when I first did stand-up when I was young, you know, I was on all the talk shows and did all that stuff. But I knew on some level, oh, I'm not reaching the heights of some of the people that I admire.

And then I started doing stand-up again about 10 years ago. And it's much more fun. And I have a lot more to say. And I don't feel pressured, you know, to feed myself with it. And so I can really be experimental and have fun. I love knowing, though, that you can be that uncertain, confused, and have some self-doubt and still find your way. Like there's something beautiful about that.

I mean, stand-up is very confrontational because every time you go on stage, you're like saying to people, you should listen to me. I'm worth hearing. And you're also saying, I'm entertaining. Like, this should delight you for 20 minutes. So there's a certain amount of confidence and arrogance. to do it at all. Some people do it out of neediness.

Like, they so need the approval that even though they're terrified, they'll do it anyway, you know, to get it, like crack or something. But it's like writing. Like sometimes like when I don't want to write, I realize, oh, I'm not writing today because I feel like I'm going to find out today that I've lost it, you know, like, literally by time. Do you still have that now? Yeah, because every time you sit down to type, you're like, this better be good.

And I'm going to find out how good I am right now. And that's the most unhealthy way to do it. Like, that's the opposite of flow state. Yeah. Is, like, that the critical voice is just there the whole time. And you have the pressure to be good right now in this moment. What do you do with that thought? You know, sometimes I have to play tricks on myself.

So if I'm going to write a scene, the thing about, you know, say you're using a program like final draft and it looks all pretty. And so when you type, like, it has to be good because it's so formatted. You know, it looks so beautiful. It looks like a screenplay. So sometimes I have to write without the format, so I'll just open up a word document. And if I'm going to write a scene, I'll say, okay, take the next 15 minutes and just babble, you know, with no punctuation ideas for the scene. And just keep going and maybe like do an experiment, like you're not allowed to stop typing for 10 minutes.

Just anything, lines of dialogue, things that could happen, crazy stuff. and try to get in a state of just pure spewing and then take a break and then read it with a highlighter and go, was anything in their good? Yeah. And usually there is. You know, it may be very little

or maybe it's like the whole thing's garbage, but this one idea is so good, I can't believe it. But you kind of have to let your subconscious speak and get out of the way. Yeah. And get that perfectionist out of the way that was blocking you and saying every line you write down

has to be almost like this final line that will make it into the scene. It's like if you were trying to think, what would a woman say to break up with me? And you just sat for 10 minutes and just wrote the speech of why she's bringing up with you over and over again.

And maybe the 20th time you did it, you'd have reached some bizarre place in your brain and it would be something you never would have thought you've written from just some old injury. Because I really don't even understand how the brain works,

but it certainly stores up a lot of stuff. Yes. And it pops out if you keep coming at it from different angles. Yeah. Do you believe there are a set of rules to good comedy or there are no rules? I don't really understand any of it. You know, like I'm not one of those people that can really lay out why things work or don't work.

I tend to try to think pretty simply about if I write it as a drama, like if the construction would work if there were no jokes, that it won't be hard. hard to figure out a way to make it funny. So I try to not chase the joke, try to chase the emotional story, and then look at it like, how can I make it funny? Because I think all the situations in life, which are painful, are really close to funny. That's why, like, in movies, there's so many movies are just like, someone's breaking up

with you. Yeah. And it might be funny because you start crying. It might be funny because you start screaming. It might be funny because you run away. So I just trust that, you know, if I, that that sense of why things are funny that are challenging or awful, that it'll just come. Yeah. You know, so when I think about, like, knocked up and Seth's trying to talk to Catherine Hegel and she wants to tell him that she's pregnant with his baby.

And so the idea is, before that, she's just asking him questions about his life because she doesn't know anything about him because they had a one-night stand. And everything in his life sounds like the worst thing. information if he was the father of your child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he, he has five grand in the bank. He thinks it'll last two years, you know, he got it because he got ran, his foot got run over by a postal truck and, you know, just on and on and on. So, but on another level, you think, well, that's what you would do.

So if you were going to have lunch with someone to tell them that you're pregnant, you might, in the warm up, go, how's your life? And try to get some info out about what am I in for here? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the emotional need of safety and certainty. Yeah, and she's not getting any sense. safety. And he's oblivious, which is funny. He doesn't know what, he's walking into a buzzsaw. And so it's inherently a very real situation, but for some reason with certain people, it's, it's funny. I love how much you love the scenes and even the characters you've created

because I find sometimes creatives get quite jaded when something's passed on. You don't feel that way through the book, comedy nerd, through talking about it with you today, through all the interviews that I watched in preparation for this. I don't, you don't sound, when you talk about your characters in your movies. It's like you're in them and we're in them and like it's fun. Like how is that stayed and have you seen other people get jaded? How have you held on to that joy of what you created? Usually like when it's done, I feel disassociated from having been a part of it. It's just a feeling like that world exists. It's almost like it happened. I don't think of it as the construction. And I know about all the construction, the levels and the rewrites and the rehearsals

of how we got there. But when the movie's done, I feel like it's a real world. Like, it's in another dimension and those people are there. Yeah. And they're still going. You know, and I like them.

Yeah. Like, I, you know, for all of them. Like, I like the characters I spent so much time with them. And if the movie came out really well, a lot of times I don't, you know, I don't watch them just because I work so hard, there's no part of me that's like looking to experience it again. So I don't have that,

that viewing of a movie that other people get because I know this story. I'll never really get to see the movie the way someone else gets to see it because I just know what happens and I've slaved over like the music cue and the sound effects. But recently I went to see the 40-old version for the first time in 20 years. We did a screening at the Academy Museum. And I had literally forgotten 80% of the jokes. I didn't remember any of it. And it was the first time in my life, it felt like I wasn't a part of it.

and I could just enjoy it. And I was laughing. I was proudly like, wow, look at these lunatics go. They're really funny. They're going hard with everybody. I love that. I love that. What's a joke you could make 20 years ago that you can't make now?

I think people are sensitive to how we define people, how we goof on people. You know, when I rewatch this stuff, there's not like a ton where I'm like, oh, God, why do we do that? But there's a few where you think, yeah, today I wouldn't have done that joke. making fun of people for just being themselves, whatever that is. But a lot of the times we were talking about people who get made fun of. So when I worked on Superbad with Seth and Evan, you know, we were talking about how in every Marks Brothers movie, they would always have a really rich guy punch Harpo Marx in the face,

like in the first 10 minutes, because then Harpo could do anything to them. Right. And, you know, they represent rich people or power. But because they did something really mean to him, Harpo had free reign to cause massive chaos. And so when we were doing Superbad, they had, you know, one of the kids spit on Jonah,

you know, by the 7-Eleven type place. And that was it. Then, like, whatever Jonah does, I know where he is in school. I know how he's that treated grades. And I kind of want him to succeed. I want him to, you know,

have something nice happen to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I always look at it that way. Yeah, I love that. What's your take on, What's your take on the impact of AI and chat GBT on writing, creative block? Are you a fan? Do you feel it's going to be useful for writers now?

Do you feel it's a hindrance? Where do you land on the conversation? I think that the danger of it is it allows you to shut off part of your critical thinking. And so if you really were into it, I think that you'd be losing something while gaining something. So if you think about GPS and you go, I kind of couldn't drive around L.A. Because I don't know where anything is anymore. That's me. Or I don't remember anyone's phone number anymore.

I think that if you were asking a machine to do certain work for you, like, oh, fix my letter. It seems kind of good. But at some point, if your Chad GBT went down, you might not be able to do the letter. And so that's the thing that makes me nervous. I think it's very helpful for research. So, you know, I'm writing a movie that takes place in college, and I'm trying to think of classes to go, oh, what's an interesting class about music?

That is, like, really, really helpful. But if you start going, write me the scene about the class. I think that you're in danger. And then you have to ask yourself, well, why do I do it? You know, I mean, if you were just in it for the money, I guess you could use it as a tool. But if you're also in it to learn about yourself and through creativity, have some self-knowledge

and it's an expression of you, then you don't want it in your world that way. Yeah, it's almost like how hard your hand hurts when you try and handwrite now. Exactly, yeah. Because it's not used to anymore. And you're like, wait a minute, if I don't have got to write something now.

No, there's no cursive. And they say that you're more creative when you write in cursive than when you type. Absolutely. And so we've kind of eliminated this thing, which probably led to a lot of beautiful, expressions of how people are feeling in letters and notes and when people would write novels longhand. Mel Brooks, I'm doing a documentary on Mel Brooks, he would write all those scripts

of the legal pad. Yeah, and there's all the research around how doodling helps our brain connect ideas. Now, when we'd be on the phone, we would doodle while we would talk to someone and it would help us. You're getting the flow state. Yes. I mean, and so, okay, so now no one doodles, how much creativity have we lost as a result of it? Yeah. But I'm saying, scared of all the AI stuff. I mean, I go on YouTube and I just watch videos about what could go wrong every night, all night. Because I'm always terrified by the fact that the people who are in charge of AI are also scared of it. Yes. So even the people are doing it, they're like, you know, it's great. It's going to change your life. It may solve some diseases. It also may decide to murder all of us

and not want us around. But I do think it's also going to be good at teaching you how to play the guitar. Yeah, great trader. Exactly. Another line that stood out to me, Jed, in your book, you said, I learned later in life through therapy that I had projected all of my childhood divorce drama onto the network executives who'd rejected or abandoned me. Yeah.

And so I want to dive into multiple parts of that. Let's first start with. I think you've talked about how you've done therapy for like 20 years. It's been a big part of your journey. Walk me through how the questions have evolved. in therapy 20 years, 10 years, five years, zero years today. It's amazing how many new things you learn as you get older that you didn't quite understand before because on some level you understand that there's a lot of projection happening in your

life. But in maybe the last five years, I think I learned a lot more about trauma responses to things and the ways that we just change our whole way of dealing with everything based on trying to avoid past pain. And that was something I didn't learn about for the first two decades of therapy. The idea that a lot of time we're just in a fight or flight or freeze response to everything, you know, I had a therapist say, you know, when you walk in a room, like say you're walking in a party, the first thing you do, you might get anxious, and you scan for threat, and then your brain assesses the threat.

And they might go, oh, looks like these people seem nice enough, we can enter the party. And then he said, the thing you're supposed to choose is opportunity. And, okay, I'm going to actually go try to talk to that person. Maybe something nice would happen if I talk to them. And in some way, we're doing that all day long. We're like scanning. Where's the problem? Where's the problem?

And I think that's something that has been very destructive for me as someone who's always looking to solve problems in a very OCD-type way. Like, what's the problem? How can I solve it before it happens? And then you realize that you're consumed all day long running potential problems. And so that's been a big thing. Like, how do you let go of a mind that wants to look for trouble? How do you? It's, I mean, obviously it's some version of mindfulness, some version of noticing the process and having some higher self-separation to go, oh, I'm doing that thing again.

And can I connect that the one who's observing is me? Yeah. And the rest is just kind of mental clutter. But it's really hard. Yeah. It's really hard. It is really hard, especially if you get caught in those cycles and they just repeat themselves around, around, around, and you're back in square one.

What was the particular aspect? The one that I quoted there, you're talking about projecting all of your childhood divorce drama onto the network executives. Talk to me about that exact. Well, I feel like there's always healthy and unhealthy reasons to do most everything. And that's what's tricky, right? So on one level, you're like, I love to be creative. I love comedy.

But in your unhealthy part, you feel like, I want validation. I want to succeed. I want safety. Like, if I succeed, I'll have safety. And I'll have love. And so you have both this very pure, creative love for something. And then this trying to protect yourself through it. And so then you're doing work.

Let's say you hand in a script. and then someone says, I hate your script. The studio hates your script. So in your mind, you could go, oh, are they correct? Maybe I should read it again? Or you could go, why are they trying to murder me? Why are they trying to destroy me? And then you're mad at them because you've given them so much power.

And now you're irrational. You're just in, they don't care about me. How come they don't see me? How come they don't understand me? And then you have just that insecure, what if they're right? What if I'm terrible at this? And so you're projecting all these old wounds and needs onto a creative relationship. But I didn't know that because I was just a young person.

Yes. So, you know, when people would give me notes that I didn't agree with, I really felt like, oh, you're trying to destroy me. Yeah. And to learn how to have those conversations in a healthy way took a long time for me. It was literally a moment where I went, oh, I'm treating the head of the, of the network like, it's my mom. I'm mad at her in the same.

I felt like I'm mad at her in the same way. I'm mad at my mom when she's not there for me. Yeah. And I need to take that energy out of this. Yeah. But it is a fight or flight response. Oh, you don't like it? Well, if you don't like it, I'm not going to be able to eat.

And now I need to fight you. Yeah. And it's heated, right? Yeah, so, you know, as you get older, you know, maybe your testosterone levels dropping helps as well. you just go oh that's what that is yeah okay take a breath what are we really talking about what's their note and you may decide you to completely disagree and oh maybe let's not do the project together or maybe i'll take it to someone else yes but you can't be rational till you come down and go oh

everything i'm filtering this through has nothing to do with what we're doing that's such a great no and i love the visual of you saying i'm treating the network exact like my mom and i'm thinking about just the moments in my life where my reaction has been totally based off of a trigger response or a trauma response that now you're turning this scenario into something that it totally isn't and it's coming from something in the past and something you've experienced and feels real, but this isn't that. You're having a tantrum like a kid. And it's also embarrassing to realize that you're wired that way.

Like, oh, man, I'm just... So basic. Yeah. I mean, I would just be so... hurt, you know, when Freaks and Geeks was basically about to be canceled and they would give me notes and the notes were usually, notes which would have made the show not as good. You know, it was like I was at war. And my back went out.

I had to have like back surgery because I was putting myself under so much stress. I had made it so important. And the hard part is, you know, can I work just as hard and not make it emotionally important? Can you with creative tasks? That's a great question. Like, can you, because Freaks and Geeks was super successful because you pushed yourself to that limit. And because we didn't give in.

Correct. That's the giving part so important. And so I'm like, have you found that you've been able to not give in but not emotionally carry all that load and still create something that successful? Is that even possible? Yeah, yeah, you can. And you realize it like, oh,

I didn't get emotional, and we had a good conversation. And, you know, it's, but it's, it takes a lot of years to see it. Yeah. Because what it is, it's a trigger response. It happens fast, like your emotional reaction. So do you have that extra five seconds to go, oh, I'm getting heated? Yeah. And you still have those moments where you snap.

And then like years later, you'll wake up in the middle of the night. Oh, I feel so bad about that you know, and it just happens out of nowhere. And it's usually around the idea of, are we about to. ruin the work. For me, it's always about is the work going to be good. It's never about like the release or the success. It's always, my only thing that makes me crazy is if I think someone can get me to ruin it. Yes. That really kind of freaks me out. Yes. And that's not healthy, the level to which it freaks me out. And I worked for people like Gary Shanling who were so sensitive and they really felt like you're trying to destroy me. And I always

said, oh, I feel so bad for them that that's how they experience this. And then I realize, oh, I do it. I'm doing it in my own way. I have a variation of this need for the work to be good and why, for who? Like, can I make it so people could enjoy it or is it so I can make a living and people like me? Yeah. You know, can I separate the healthy from the unhealthy?

I always think about Ram Dass talking about, I guess it's part of like the idea of like all Dharma's dreams that like you live your life. and then you also realize that life is ridiculous and meaningless and so you still have to be in the game and you still have to do your best but can you hold at the same point like this is all so silly

yes yes and when I think about that I do better but it's really hard because you're trying to care and not care like have attachment and non-attachment at the same time yeah absolutely it's like how do I realize what I'm doing is valuable and at the same time embrace my insignificance

and it's like it sounds beautiful and it is possible but I hear what you're saying there's there's a level of focus and due diligence that's healthy and then it's only as healthy when it's matched with detachment as opposed to when it's so addictive

and we're going through our first set of TV and film projects right now that I've ever done in my life and I have that same feeling because I can everything you're saying I'm like wow like I can so relate to it because up until this point also a lot of what I've created has been fully like it's never been funded by anyone else we've

never worked with a studio or a production company it's all us and so I have a lot of and as time has gone on I've built more confidence and conviction in my intuition that I'm aware of what I believe will work and and what won't and I've sat with it for long enough and I've done this for 20 years and all the rest of it and then someone comes and give me a note that I'm like I know that's not going to work. And then we incorporate in the pilot, we make the pilot, and then the only feedback we get from the audience and everyone is we didn't like that bit. And I'm like, I told you, like, I knew it. And so then what do you do with that? Because it's such a human experience of... Well, it's always picking your collaborators. Everything in my career changed when I started

working with the Universal Studios and Donna Langley because her and the executives there, Peter Kramer, Eric Byers, you know, they just got it. And so then most of that goes away because you have a good relationship, but also they get what you do and they understand your process. But I had a lot of relationships with people, you know, like with freaks and geeks where they told me like, we don't like the show. It was funny, there was a documentary about freaks and geeks, and they interviewed one of the executives who canceled it.

And you thought in the doc he would admit that he made a mistake, but he didn't. He was like kind of still proud of it. And so I think a big part of it is who should I collaborate with? How, you know, part of it is picking the person that you can have a healthy discourse with. And that's tricky because sometimes you don't know everybody. Yeah. Only by going through it do you go, oh, I like that person. I'm going to bring them the next one.

Or I need to run away from that person. It's 5.23 p.m. One of your kids is asking for a snack. Another is building a fort out of your car. clean laundry. And you're staring at a half-empty fridge and thinking, what are we even going to eat tonight? Or you could just hello-fresh it. With over 80 recipes to choose from every week, including kid-friendly ones, even for picky eaters, you'll get fresh ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered right to your door. No last-minute grocery runs. No, what do we even have

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or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's AZ Fud. You may know me as a gold medalist. you may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstanding player. You may even know me as a People's Princess, but now you're also going to know me as your favorite host. Every week on my new podcast, fud around and find out, I'll give you an inside

look at everything happening in my crazy light as I try to balance it all, from my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the Natty with my Yukon Huskies to just try to make it to my midterms on time. You'll get the inside scoop on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun with the fud family. So if you follow me on social media or watch me on TV, you may think you know me. But this show is the only place where you can really fud around and find out. Listen to fud around and find out, a production of iHeart women's sports and partnership with unanimous media on the iHeart radio app, Apple

podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. How did you get better at doing that and making that process quicker? Is there ever a way to get better at knowing that earlier? No. You just have to meet them and then treasure it. Yes. And just go, oh, okay, I'm going to stay here. And to value that, because it really is a special thing when it works.

And people give good notes. and they understand you, and they're excited for you, and they encourage you. So I try to remember there's those people and then go back to them as often as they'll have me. Yeah. If fear and doubt would disappear from your life and mind tomorrow, what would you do differently? I don't know. I mean, what I would do differently is, you know, just probably be happier. I don't know so much about work.

That's a great answer. But just like in life, I would like to have lightened up. A few years ago, I was feeling terrible. And then in my mind, I just heard the phrase, lighten up. And I thought to myself, wow, you're in comedy and you're so heavy. Like, you just really need to lighten up. Why do you look at everything in such intense terms? But that only works because, you know, if I remind myself of it, I can lighten up.

But what if I go like a year and go, oh, I forgot to say lighten up in the last year. I forgot to wrote. You know, I'm one of those people like, I'll write all these things down. Like, I'll have, like, a piece of paper. And, you know, one of the things I wrote write down a lot is just try to do better today. Like, just look at today. Don't look at the long arc of it. Like, okay, what am I going to do today?

Will it be fun? Can I make it fun? And at the end of the day, go, that was a good day. And if I think about the next year, I'm usually in meltdown. Yeah, you reminded me of this beautiful story where a student once asked the Buddha, what do you gain from meditation? And he says, I didn't gain anything. And then the student says, so then why do you meditate?

And the Buddha says, well, I don't meditate because of what I gain. I meditate because of what I lose. I lose fear. There's anxiety. I lose insecurity. I lose envy and ego. Yeah. And it's what you're saying.

It's like, hey, if there was no fear and doubt anymore tomorrow, how would you feel? And you said, happy, that's a beautiful answer, actually, because it's not something that's blocked you from taking action. but those are emotions that make living and breathing a lot harder. Yeah, because your mind's just going. Like, I like to meditate, but I just don't do it enough. And every time I do it, I'm thrilled after. I'm like, that totally worked.

I feel better over the next five hours. And then I might go 11 days not doing it again. And I always think, what is the part of my brain that's fighting doing it? Because clearly there's something resisting, just being present and quiet. And it doesn't make any sense now because I like it. But there's a little part that's like, don't do it. Yeah. You know, I guess some people go, you know, that's your ego and your ego doesn't want to be destroyed.

So it's trying to figure out a way to get you not doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Earlier, that's reminding me of, before we started taping, you said something to me, you said, it's surprising of the things we're not addicted to. And then I asked you if you ever did drugs and the reason for my question was, I feel like there are so many people today who feel their creativity is dependent on on something about creation or whatever it may be. Your life, as you explained it to me,

before we started taping, was not like that. You were scared away from drugs, and you can share that. Well, my grandfather produced the first Janice Joplin album, a big brother in the holding company. And so my entire childhood, they always talked about the fact that she was the best singer who ever lived and she took drugs and died. In fact, that's why it's in freaks and geeks when Joe Flaherty says,

what happened to Janice Joplin? She's dead. Oh, yeah. was because that was this mantra. And so all that really, really scared me. And then the few times I did it when I was young, usually I would just get paranoid. I never had like the great experiences

that would make me go, let's do more of this. It was one moment where I did try to buy some pot, and my brother found out who was older than me and told the guy not to sell it to me. But I always think, if my brother didn't tell that guy, you better not sell pot to my brother. maybe I would have found the part of me that loves it.

So I got a good long run of that. I never loved drinking. I would always get tired and fall asleep. I think it's just my chemistry doesn't get that kick out of it. I know people who will say, oh, I wrote that entire series you love, hi. And I'm like, I literally can't write one joke. The second I'm high, I'm just like, let's just watch, you know, great British bake-off. You know, like I'm not in creative mode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so, but thank God, because that's just a random thing. Because I think if I loved it, it would have been a real problem. But I was very aware that I wanted to succeed and I thought, that's not going to help me. Yeah. Yeah. You've said you read a lot of self-help books. I was wondering if you had to pick three that have really had an impact on your life

and a lesson you've learned from each, what would there be? I mean, the three that I go back to all the time. One is called The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. Yeah, a great book. And I'm always going back to that book, although there's tons of YouTube videos of him talking. They're all great. And with anything really good, usually they're saying the same thing just in a different way. It's one idea, and it's just kind of rewritten to find another way to get you to soak it in.

And his thing is that he feels like people have these energy. blocks. You know, something happens to you, you know, like say, someone punch you in the face at a party. And so then you think, all right, I guess I'm the guy who doesn't go to parties. And that by the time you get older, you have a hundred of these or you have a thousand of these. And everything that you do is avoiding certain things, certain types of people you didn't get along with once. And so I guess he described it as like, it's like if you had a thorn and instead of pulling it out, you put like a metal thing around it. And then you realize you needed a bigger metal thing. And then you would go to the party and you couldn't

let anyone bump into it, as opposed to just taking it out. And to just, like, live with the pain of it and to let the energy, whatever that experience was, move through your body and see it. And I find that's really helpful, and those books are great. That's a great answer. I always read Pima Chodron books, just all of them, when things fall apart, start where you are. She's amazing. And I think she writes better than almost anybody about.

about Buddhism and she talks about Tonglin meditation and I guess there's a lot of slogans but the thing she mentions is that she does a type of meditation where you try to breathe in someone else's problem and then breathe so you take it in and then you try to send out like fresh, clean air, like you breathe in there like dirty muck and take it on and then give them clear fresh, freshness, right? And then you might run, okay, I'm going to do that for the person I hate. Now I'm going to do it for myself. I'll do it for my friends and I'll do it for all my enemies and I'll do it for everyone in the world. And that's a beautiful piece of meditation that really changes your chemistry when you do it.

that because you're always trying to help yourself. So like a pure giving meditation just changes everything. Absolutely. And then the third one, there are these books by this guy named John Wellwood. And their relationship books, they're just some of the best written relationship books. But he basically talks about how in your relationships,

they're meant to bring everything to the surface. and confront you with it. So in your relationship, in your marriage, it's all going to come up. And you have to look at that as a sacred thing that you both help each other with what comes up. And it's not like, I'm so mad at you for telling me that I do this.

But really, the relationship is that we're in this together and that these things are going to keep bubbling up and can we figure out how to address them and address them in a positive way. There was another guy named Harville Hendrix who had books about it. this where it really was to embrace it when it comes up and not be annoyed like yeah no this is the whole point of the relationship is that you're going to tell me how annoying I am yeah yeah no those are

beautiful recommendations and I hadn't heard of the last well word so I'll have to go and grab a couple of copies of that but no beautiful examples and beautiful lessons so so deep and profound when did your fascination with that work start like when did that begin with all of this reading and writing. I mean, it sounds like your voracious reader on the other side, too. My parents never talked about religion ever. Not positive, not negative. They didn't talk about it.

And so, even though, you know, they're very nice people with good values, there wasn't a system. So I think I really had a hole there, an existential dread from the idea that there was no structure to the universe

or how I should think about the meaning of life. And when I met Gary Shandling, he would recommend these Buddhist books to me, like feather on a fan or turning problems into happiness. Turning problems into happiness was based on the idea that anytime anything bad happens, you're supposed to be happy because it's giving you an opportunity to work on something. Oh, I could work on patience or fortitude or something. I had never heard anything like that in my whole life. That's what you're supposed to do. Like, wait, problems are good? I never, ever had heard that. And so I became interested in those books and then probably some of it is almost like mental hoarding.

Like I would just buy so many self-help books. And I think sometimes it's hurt me because it's just too much. And then I just drown in it like, oh, I'm supposed to not want anything, but I'm also supposed to list what I want so I can manifest it. You know, I'm supposed to be here now, but don't live in the future, but I have to plan for it. It's, you know, like, and I just started passing out. I love it. Me too. I get that.

Yeah, you've got to be selective and focused on what you pick up. I feel like there's always been this, I don't know whether it's a myth or it feels like something people have said for a long time and therefore we feel it's true. And I guess you're the right person to ask. But comedy is often or humor's often been seen as hiding something or carrying a certain weight behind it or a pain behind it or a coping mechanism. Is that true? and what is it for you?

Over the years, what I realize is a lot of times when I'm writing is I'm trying to figure my own thinking out. Like, what am I thinking about this? I'm just trying to explore myself, maybe a struggle, maybe a question. So I would, you know, some people say, you know, you write the movie to figure out why you write the movie. And you're not even sure what you're working on. And so, you know, in my career, I've been a person who's worked on projects about high school

and about college and about getting somebody pregnant and about maintaining relationship and about getting sick and about, you know, so I feel like I hit these major life turning points because I feel like, oh, I really need to work this through. But when I'm doing it, I'm not conscious of that. Yeah. And then maybe later I'll go, oh, I must have been thinking about. these issues like friendship and the value

of your work when we were doing funny people you know my mom had been sick and I noticed that when she thought she was going to get better she was happier than when when she thought she was going to die when she had cancer she was always happier

than when she thought the medicine was working and she was going to get better all her neuroses would come back but when she thought she had no hope she kind of dropped everything and became this very much more serene person. And so I thought, oh, so I started writing a movie. You know, it's an Adam Sandler movie about him having an experience like that.

But at the time, I didn't realize that's what I had done. Yeah. It took, like, a while for me to go, oh, this movie isn't about me and comedy. This is about my mom and, you know, what she went through. So you'd say that comedy heals pain, not hides it? Well, it certainly is a road to understanding yourself. Sometimes when I'm working with a writer, if I'm overseeing a writer, you know, I'll say I feel like a lot of these movies are about a problem, usually an emotional problem, and then you think, what would have to happen to the character for them to hit bottom enough to make a change? Because in life, usually you make a change because something happens, usually something that's not great.

And so in a movie, there's usually some sort of bottom. Even in the silliest movies, someone crashes. And then I always say, and what would health look like? So if they figured it out and at the end they were doing better, what would better look like? I like that. And I guess, do you feel after you've made something that you feel better? Like when you do have that reflection? Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes, you know, at the end of it, I have a good feeling. You know, when I worked with Pete Davidson, I'm the king of Staten Island, we talked a lot about sacrifice because I was thinking, oh, I've never worked on a movie that's about being there for other people. Most of the movies are about, you know, emotional situations and people having meltdowns and fighting with other people and just trying to make their lives work. I've never made a movie about people who are willing to risk their lives for other people. And I think, you know, we all felt a great responsibility to show, you know, the lives of first responders

and to be respectful and to show the challenges of that for families. And so, you know, when it came out really well, I was especially, proud of it because I wanted to do right by all those people. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. That feels like a really nice, like, 360. Yeah, because we met all those, you know, the firefighters, and a lot of them

lost a lot of people in 9-11, and we knew like how sacred this space was that we were talking about. Yeah. Your movies have made people laugh, made people happy, made people, you know, have great memories around them. Like, would you say, are you happy? Am I happy? That's the right question.

I mean, I think I'm always trying to figure out how to be happy. And I think I ebb and flow. I think I have periods where I get like really lost and caught up in my head and in things. And then every once in a while, like it clears up for a little while. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I feel good about how everything is and what's going on. I feel in between tragedies, you know, like, oh, this is a good period. But then sometimes I just lose it. Like, I lose touch with the thing that makes me feel like I understand where I am in the universe.

Because sometimes, you know, especially now as everyone's talking about computers and everything changing and the world is changing where we're like, is something happening right now, I can really get thrown and just obsess on it all day along. Like, what's the point of all of this? Like, what are we doing? It's almost like feeling really happy and loose in my mind sometimes feels like I'm not doing what I should be doing to make something positive happen. Interesting.

And that's not really fair on myself. But it is the feeling like, I can't just be like, wee, because like, have you seen what happened today? Like, what are we supposed to do about this? And it's, you know, like a deep kind of guilt that is, again, some sort of fight or flight response, and a childhood thing, too.

Like, you know, just stay on top of things, you know, don't let anything slip by you as a survival strategy. So, like, actually being happy sometimes feels like a violation of my survival strategy. Wow. And that's a big thing to, like, can I let go of that? And sometimes I can, and then sometimes I totally can.

Yeah, and it's so interesting how thank you for going there because it's so interesting how those things that make you successful and make you organize and make you great at what you do they everything comes as this double-ed sword of stopping you from having an experience and then at the same time there's a beauty to how you feel because it's wonderful that you feel a sense of responsibility and empathy and compassion because those are all good things you want to feel at the same time you don't want it to steal your joy and so it's such a yeah it's interesting living in that in that land escape. And as I was listening to you, I was thinking that I think happiness is never not being

lost. It's knowing that you've been lost and found multiple times. And so that ebb and flow that you spoke about, it's almost like knowing that, oh, I've been lost before. And there's joy in that and there's happiness in that, in that this is the journey back and forth. But I love what you're saying about needing a overarching structure and an overarching almost belief. Have you ever discovered anything, read anything that feels that way that started to kind of scratch that itch or is it something you seek? Well, kind of like the meditation thing that you're talking about, you know, this idea of returning when you're lost, it is the experience of meditation.

Like you're trying to not think. And then suddenly you realize, oh, I've been thinking for 12 minutes in my meditation and you're not supposed to beat yourself up about it. You're supposed to celebrate that you realize to return to your empty mind again. and that every time you return, it's good. And even if you only, let's say in 20 minutes of meditation, you were running stuff for two giant hunks and you only got back twice,

that you should celebrate it as the greatest success. That that is a way to look at all of life. Like life is suffering yet we soldier on, right? And it's a mix, and it's always going to be a mix. It's always going to be up and down, up and down. But I've never really gotten the exact way to kind of keep returning to something that feels good. But I did do ayahuasca a couple of years ago. And it was a really, it was a wild experience.

And most of it was about like trying to let go. Because I really felt like I was like not letting go, not just being open. Like, that's my issue. And then at the end, after this, you know, long experience, you know, you're like, you're vomiting, you're, you know, you've gone through it. I don't recommend this to anyone, by the way, because it's crazy. And I feel like I don't know if it's safe for people, you know, so it's not anything you can say to do.

Yeah. But at the end of it, like I had this like image of Jesus, which is weird because I'm Jewish. And so it's not like the thing that I would think of. And it's something I see Jesus on the cross at the end of this like eight-hour trip. And in my head, I'm like, oh, I get what that is. it's uh he's there for us and we should be there for each other and the whole idea of it just like landed with me and i thought oh i guess that's it it's just like being there for other people and and that's the one thing that i try to go back to wow that's beautiful where did you go to do iwaska uh i did it in the

state of california oh okay i'm pretty sure it's illegal yeah but uh but it definitely was you know for me were very meaningful. Did you ever do it again? Oh, no. I had done it one time before, but I got really scared and took very little, which is a mistake because if you take very little, you're not having the experience, but the shaman is. Because the shaman takes the ayahuasca also. That's part of it.

So then suddenly like, I'm not high, and the shaman's singing to me for eight hours. And I'm not really even feeling anything. So then he just got to watch someone dance and sing with a drum. So I went back again and then I committed. to doing the whole thing. Yeah, wow, wow. I mean, that's a pretty special experience to see Jesus and to have that as a take home.

Yeah. That's pretty powerful. Yeah, no, it really was. And I tried to take it seriously and hold on to it. And the funny thing was that after ayahuasca, for about six, eight months, I would wake up, and it was as if my mind had been working on problems all night. And when I woke up, it was like telling me what it had.

figured out. And so I would just like wake up to these like messages. And so I'd be like asleep and then I would get up and in my head I would hear, you're not doing any of the things that you ask Leslie to do. Oh. Oh. You know, things like that. You know, like, you know, all that matters is love or, you know, whatever it was. But like it was different every day. Wow. And it really felt like I was stepping into a conversation, you know, that was happening. Wow. And then it finally faded. And then you realized it was just Leslie saying, whispering in my ear. That's amazing. You've been married for 28 years.

You've been married for 27 years. What's the secret to a 27-year-marriage that looks happy and fulfilling and wonderful? Leslie, man, that's the main thing. I mean, it's a lot of work and you do realize that, you know, so much of it is like the courage to be honest about what's happening. what you're feeling, what you're going through, and, you know, to really be there for each other. But we really enjoy each other, you know, like, you know, we love each other, but we're also, I think, kind of engaged and amused and we're creative together and we love our kids. And I think that we have a really, you know, nice relationship, you know, with them.

But at the same time, it's like the work of, you know, what's coming up, you know, what am I struggling with, you know, how do we make life work, you know? our kids moved out and it's like all right what's life now and you're just in this very beautiful uh partnership to you know make the best of this life yeah how is that curiosity that musing that amusement stayed like what what is it being that you've practiced to keep that alive i think it's it's just her i don't think it you know i don't think it's there's like work there you know i think like in life you can get distracted and you can can kind of pulled into things and consumed and off track, but it's really about kind of getting

centered and present, which, you know, is hard if you're a hypervigilant person and you're just worried about everything being good, you know, to kind of clear it all away and be there. I mean, that's like the, you know, the work of a lifetime to figure out how to clear it all away and just be there. Yeah, were there moments where you felt you were moving at different paces in careers, work, life, family, and almost had to find a way to stay connected? I mean, I think like we always, you know, supported what we were doing in work creatively. I think that we realize that, you know, we're not always going to work together,

but when we do something really special happens and we get to a deep place. And, you know, it's very, like, funny and real. And people feel it. Yeah. But we're talking about things that are meaningful and she's so funny and creative and comes up with these amazing ideas. So it's a real collaboration when we decide to do that kind of work together. And then we're always supportive on, you know, if I'm doing a project, you know, she's, you know, watching cuts and giving me notes. Like, we try to just, like, help each other, you know, do a good job.

Yeah, yeah, she's fantastic. I mean, yeah, whenever you guys work together, I feel like your spot on it is magic. And that must be just such a bonus because there's, you obviously have this loving relationship at home. You're having this great relationship at work. Yeah. And to hear that it's her and that there's not necessarily work behind it. sounds I mean it sounds wonderful it's like yeah I mean it's terrifying also because you put yourself out there yeah and so so so if you go okay we're gonna make a movie as a family

yeah and the kids too yeah on some level it's crazy because it's like well if this goes bad this is a worldwide humiliation so I would really feel the pressure you know as the captain of it to not make anyone you know look terrible or you know and but I also think it made it better because I just cared at such a high level. They obviously cared and did an amazing job. I think it did the opposite. It really, like, focuses you. And then you're having kind of an amazing conversation

about what do we want to say, you know, about life, about relationships, about marriage, about kids. And so, you know, for years we have common purpose. And I think that was, you know, the best part about it, was really all of us as a family moving towards the same goal. Yeah, that's so. special. I love seeing that. And I know you were recently, you know, just seeing your daughter have her moment, both of them, have their moments. It's like, it must be so fulfilling.

What do you think was the most important lesson you taught your children when they were young that you see them mirroring today? Leslie and I tried to tell Iris and Maude that the most important thing is, you know, to care about the work and be passionate about it and to be proud of what you're saying in it and that all that matters is that. And that you shouldn't take any work just for your career. You shouldn't, you know, try to figure out how to get successful. That it'll always come because you have something to say, it's something that you want to express, that you feel good about.

And we talked a lot about just having the courage to take the risk because it is scary, you know, making things. And you do have to gird yourself for rejection and, you know, careers which have highs and lows. And so in a way, you know, you're saying, you know, You can handle this, like, let's, you know, or maybe you don't want to do this, which we also said to them many times, like, if this isn't fun for you, because it's, it is hard. It's hard on the people who have a creative life. Yeah.

Because, you know, you can go through periods where you're like, no one understands me anymore. And then suddenly it's better again. And it's like being an adrenaline junkie in a way. And you don't want them to experience it. And that way, you want them to be proud of what they're contributing. Yeah. But it's hard to explain that to kids. Like, you know, it's all about you're making a contribution.

They're like, what? You know, because it took me decades to realize, like, you know, everyone's on someone to walk up to me and tell me they like something that I did or it made them laugh. It's easy to not take that in. But when you do and go, oh, that is the only reason why I did it. Because this person I bumped into has watched it 11 times. Yeah. And it's the thing they turn to that makes them happy.

Yes. Like, that's actually the only reason to. do it. Absolutely. That and to be able to eat. Yeah. It's 5.23 p.m. One of your kids is asking for a snack.

Another is building a fort out of your clean laundry. And you're staring at a half-empty fridge and thinking, what are we even going to eat tonight? Or you could just hello-fresh it. With over 80 recipes to choose from every week, including kid-friendly, even for picky eaters you'll get fresh ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered right to your door no last minute grocery runs no what do we even have fridge staring and the best part you're in total control skip a week pause anytime pick what works for you it's dinner on your terms the kids can even help you cook yeah it's gonna be messy but somehow they tend to eat the vegetables they made themselves try hello fresh today and get 50% off the first box with free shipping Go to Hellofresh.ca and use promo code Mom50. That's Hellofresh.coma promo code Mom 50. Hellofresh.com.

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year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it, and in fact, it may get even worse.

For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of heavyweight, I help a centenarian mend a broken heart. How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again? And I help a man atone for an armed robbery he committed at 14 years old.

And so I pointed the gun at him and said this isn't a joke. And he got down and I remember feeling kind of a surge of like, okay, this is power. Plus, my old friend Gregor and his brother tried to solve my problems through hypnotism.

We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're like super charming all the time. Being more able to look to people in the eye. Not always hide behind a microphone. Listen to Heavyweight on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you try and let people down lightly when you're rejecting them? I imagine people are pitching you crazy ideas all the time.

What have you learned? You've told us about how you deal with rejection. What about when you're rejecting other people's ideas? I think, you know, being direct with people and also trying to be constructive with people. I remember working for James Brooks on this cartoon The Critic, and when he would listen to people's pitches for stories, he always gave them a lot of time. And even when the idea was terrible, he would kick it around from all these angles to see if the room would find something in it. Like maybe it would lead to some other inspiration.

And that really had a big effect on me because someone would pitch something and I would think, this is the worst idea. We'd go on to another idea and he would go, but what if this and what if that? And he never seemed annoyed.

He seems fascinated by the thought and like, could it work if you did this? Does she have to be of that? And I think when you do that to people, even when you say, I don't want to make your movie, but you give them the time to say, here's why I'm not passionate about it. Here's what's interesting about it.

it. Because the truth is, you know, I've turned down things that became big hits and that's happened to me. It doesn't mean I'm right. It just means that I don't connect to it. Yes. You know, someone else might. What was one of the ones that got away that you may not have loved but went on to do something great? I don't know. I can't think of one off the top of my head, you know, usually, usually it's because I don't move fast enough. Someone sent me a script and it took me too many days to read

it and then they sold it to somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. that's yeah but I like what you said that it's not about because it's not about whether it's successful or not it's about whether it's meaningful to you or not that is such a great metric because if it becomes about what's successful I mean there's going to be a million things that are successful and you're going to miss out on all of them because there's so many things that are successful every year but if it's meaningful to you you want to be involved and I think that's such a great lesson I find when I speak to anyone who's creative of you know we had Rick Rubin

in here and it was talking about music in that way. And when I'm talking to you, I'm like, I feel like I'm understanding comedy in a different way because this isn't just, it's never been as simple as, oh, yeah, we're just trying to, just trying to make that person laugh. It's like there's, there's so much more, there's just so much more deep intention behind what you're creating and how you're doing it. Well, I love Rick Rubin's book. Yeah.

And, you know, years ago, Gary Shanling said to me, you should get to know Rick Rubin. He's like, I don't know, I think there'd be something there. And so I got to know Rick, and he would show me music. And I put some music from the band, the Aved Brothers, and this is 40, that he had played for me. And then one day he said, they're about to do a new record with me. You might want to do a documentary or something. And I thought, well, maybe I should do it because Gary said, you know, Gary was my mentor. And I'm going to follow that.

I'm going to follow it through as if it's like a message from Gary. And then we followed me, my friend Michael Von Figuillo, followed David Brothers around for a couple of years and made this movie called May at Last about them making a record with Rick. Okay. And it was about these two guys who are just good guys. And it was a funny thing because we were making this documentary

and we're like, where's the drama? Yeah. Because it's like two good guys making music and working with Rick. And we realized, well, that's the point of the movie. It's almost like a meditation on creativity. And that, like, some people aren't assholes. Some people are kind of great. And then we thought, oh, that's kind of a beautiful thing.

If we could figure out how to make this, like, you know, fascinating. Yeah. About a band being good to each other. Yeah. And so I always think about Rick. That's so funny. I didn't know that. I loved what you said that.

You were talking about, obviously, Gary being one of your mentors. How important of mentors being in your life? gigantic. I mean, the entire thing. When I look back, I'm so grateful that I bumped into Gary at a comedy club and he asked me to write jokes for him for the Grammys and then hired me at the Larry Sanders show. Then he asked me to co-run it the last year. Then he asked me to direct it. I never directed before. And so he was like a real angel who just believed in me and kept giving me opportunities. And now I look back and go, wow, those are giant opportunities. I didn't know anything. He really taught me everything. And how do you explain those? How do you make sense of that now

when you reflect on those huge moments that he gave you when you were learning the ropes? I mean, I remember, like, he, you know, he wanted to hang out when I was young and writing jokes for him. And he was living with Linda Doucette. And I would go over there and just eat with them sometimes and watch TV. And he was beginning to develop the Larry Sanders show. And he would show me auditions and scripts. And I remember thinking, why is he doing this? You know, like, it was hard for me to go, oh, he's just a good guy. Like, this is so weird because he's the, he's like the most talented, funny guy in the world. And he likes having me around.

And then later in life, I thought, you know, he never had kids, but I feel like that was like his way of doing it. It was like through me that it was like an experiment in fatherhood. And I think that, you know, when he was a kid, his brother died. when he was little, and his parents never really talked about the brother, and it was discouraged that they just kind of moved on in a very kind of early 1960s way. And it really hurt Gary, and it made him very sensitive in a lot of ways after that. And I thought that he was nice to me in the way he wished his parents were to him. That's what I thought he was doing.

Wow. Wow. So in one sense, you were able to give him a gift too. Yeah. I think he was trying to prove that it was possible to be purely giving like that. Yeah. I never knew it at the time. I just thought, oh, Gary's a great friend. He's so sweet. But then later, other people would tell me like, oh, Gary, you know, felt very paternal with you. And I thought, oh, yeah, because I went through all my emails after he died from him. and every email where I asked them for something he said yes for like 10 years

I just like scrolled through and I'm like he said yes every single time and other people would be like he says no to me to everything and I just started crying it was just such a beautiful thing to scroll through like someone just consistently

just being there and so beautiful and asking for not that much in return you know other than to not screw up the Larry Sanders show. That's so special. What's beautiful is you've done that for so many others, too, I feel. Like, that seems to be something you live on.

Yeah, and it's the fun part, too. I mean, it's, you know, I like to do it. A lot of it is from Gary, but also, it's really fun to work with somebody who is very inspired and needs some help understanding what they're doing. Yeah. But, you know, they're doing something amazing and you can help them. And you go, oh, yeah, I could give them some of the wisdom that I learned over the years and this person can actually pull off the thing that they're trying to do.

Yes. Like, they're good enough without me, but I can make this way easier if I say, watch out for this, watch out for that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Judd, it has been amazing learning from you. I feel like I've gained so much wisdom about whether it's the comedy industry, whether it's about resilience, whether it's about breaking through barriers, believing in yourself even when you don't, all the way through to just,

how much work that you've done. We end every on-purpose interview, the final five. He's questioned after be answered in one sentence maximum. Well, do I break that rule often? So we'll see how well we do. But Chad Appetal, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Don't live in here.

Live in here. Ram Dass said that to me when I interviewed him for his podcasts. He goes, hear bad, you're good. tell me about your interview with him it asked me to interview him and it was over Zoom and in the middle of it Gary Shanling I invited Gary Shanling to sit in

and halfway through he showed up and the two of us were just trying to make him laugh saying dumb jokes you know we were like are you mad at Eckhart Tollay because you're like the be here now guy

and he's the now guy and he was just laughing but he also said you know I am loving awareness. And he said a lot of things that were really reducible that any time I think about them deeply affect me. And the other thing I noticed about it,

I have a photograph of me and Gary. It's like a still of our side of the Zoom. And in the photograph, Gary looks purely happy. Wow. And I thought, I don't know if I've ever seen Gary look happy and serene like how he looked when he was talking to Ram Dass. Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Stop crying or I'll give you a reason to cry? Is that advice? You said that to you? That was like a parental thing when I was a kid. But someone said to me, and they meant it in the best possible way, but I probably took it the wrong way. They said, you know, when you're doing your TV pilot, and they give you notes. If the note is wrong, don't do it because if you screw up your show, They won't say, you know what, let's make your show anyway because I gave you that bad note.

But I took it like to really fight. And I would just like refuse to take certain notes out of self-protection. I took it too seriously. I didn't realize that there's a real give and take and you have to respect the people that you're working with. And later on I realize like if the people who are trying to help you, if they think you think they're idiots, they'll try to destroy you. know, that there's a lot of ego involved in this exchange, you know, for people when they kind of take a risk to tell you what they think of your thing. And that you have to be very respectful to their, you know, their mindset and their ego. In the same way, I'm so sensitive.

Wow, that's profound. Question number three, what makes a good friend? It's funny because I was talking to David Milch, who was one of my mentors, and he was talking about, he had a friend when he was a kid growing up, and he said, we would just laugh so much. They were like 12, and they would crack up, and he said, you know that way you behave with your friends where you never, ever have to think about what you're going to say to them? because you just know they're going to get it. You know they're okay with it. And so you're in this crazy, joyful flow. And then he said, that's what I think writing should feel like. And that's how I think of your friendship at its best.

Yeah. You know, is that feeling of total relaxation, confidence, hilarity, connection. Yeah, well said. I love that. You have so many great friends in the industry outside, and it's beautiful to hear that. And that's, I can agree. more. It's, I feel like I'm around my best friends when I don't have to filter anything. Yeah. And we can hash it out if we have to, but yeah, there's no filter.

Question number four, what's something that you used to value, that you don't value anymore? Well, I'm a hoarder. So I've always saved everything. Like, I've really saved everything. You can tell by the book. The pictures. It's 570 pages of scanning of my, like, childhood autographs. It's amazing. James Garner and Jack Klugman. autographs. Like, I saved things when I was 10, like I was the Smithsonian. And, you know, you know the thing we're like, oh, there's an article about you in a magazine. And instead of getting one copy, you get 20, and then you put them in a box and you can't throw it out. Like, you literally can't

throw it out. And when I put this book together, I thought, I need to let go of this stuff because it's, it's mentally unhealthy. And also, if, I could let go of it, I could probably connect more to the spirit of all of it. I shouldn't need to, you know, hold on to, you know, some strength. I'm glad you did. Yeah. So I scanned it all and put it all in the book. So now I should throw out like seven storage spaces worth of crap. But you haven't yet. I haven't yet. But I'm really working towards like not needing it anymore. That's great. I'm glad you didn't. I thought it was remarkable. I mean, the amount of stuff you've saved and scanned and shared in the book. It's unbelievable. I wish, yeah, I wish everyone was able to tell their

story that visually. Yeah. Because that's what takes you back to that time. It's, it's so hard to do it through imagination. And you saving all of this means we don't have to. So, well, I, you know, I thought, I want to go through all my stuff. I scanned everything. And then I had like 400,000 photos. So I spent a year laying the whole book out with no writing. And then I took about six, eight months, and I tried to do the book with a lot of, like, little essays and captions so that it felt like I was explaining the book to you. Yes, yes. So if you open any page, it's me going, oh, let me tell you what that is.

And I think it's a fun read because of that, because you can open to any page. Totally. And I also have all the projects that failed and explained what they were and why they failed. It's not just success things. No, absolutely. No, I think that was the best part about it. It's so real. Even today, you've shared so many things that I feel.

are not the highlights that there's so much. Fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? The thing that it's such like a corny bumper sticker, but every time I hear it,

I think, wow, if people really live this, it would be meaningful, which is, you know, you don't know what anyone is going through, be kind. And I did this documentary about Mel Brooks for HBO that's going to be on in January. And, you know, he's 99 years old,

So I said, you know, what do you tell, you know, you're like, your grandkids? What advice do you take from, you know, this, you know, century on earth? And he said, be kind. And I think that's it. Yeah, well said. Chad Appetal, the book's called Comedy Nerd. We're going to put the link in the description to go and grab your copy. I want you all to clip on TikTok and Instagram the pieces that really resonated with you, that

connected with you, the stories that you're going to remember and share. I, again, I learned so many nuggets of wisdom from Judd's today. And Judd, I'm so grateful that you not only lived your life, shared it in this beautiful visual way with all of us. And I hope I get to spend a lot more time with you because this was too much fun. So thank you so much. Thank you. So grateful to you and really appreciate it. All right.

Thank you. Thank you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin on how to break into your most creative self, how to use unconventional methods that lead to success and the secret to genuinely loving what you do. If you're trying to find your passion and your lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one for you. Just because I like it, that doesn't give it any value. As an artist, if you like it, that's all of the value.

That's the success comes when you say, I like this enough for other people to see it. Hey, I'm Kurt Brown-Oller. And I am Scotty Landis, and we host Bananas, the podcast where we share the weird funniest, real news stories from all around the world. And sometimes from our guest's personal lives, too. Like when Whitney Cummings recently revealed her origin story on the show. There's no way I don't already have rabies. This is probably just why my personality is like this.

I've been surviving rabies for the past 20 years. New episodes of bananas drop every Tuesday in the exactly right network. Listen to bananas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Radie de Vluca, and I'm the host of a really good cry podcast and I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Yuri, if you're out there trying to date right now, being ghosted on Hinge or want to create a dating profile that gives you a solid chance of matching with someone you actually want to go on a date with. Then this episode with Hinge's Director of Relationship Science, Logan Yuri is definitely for you. Relationships do require work.

The best relationships are people who really work on them together. Listen to a really good cry on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the U versus you podcast. I'm Lex Barrero, inviting you to go beyond the titles and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers. Each week, we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories, and the moments that shaped our guests. Get inspired to become the best version of you.

Listen to U versus You podcast on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Thank you.