On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Julia Fox EXCLUSIVE: ‘I Still Hear a Voice That Says I’m Nothing’ (The Real Story Behind Surviving Addiction, Life as a Sex Worker, and How Motherhood Saved Her)

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Do you ever struggle with your self-worth? What helps you get through your darkest days? Today, in the first-ever live episode of On Purpose with Jay Shetty— not in a studio, but live on stage in front of thousands. To kick things off, Jay sits down with actress, author, and cultural disruptor Julia Fox for a raw, unfiltered conversation about pain, transformation, and purpose. What begins as an unlikely pairing unfolds into something profoundly human. Julia takes us deep into her story, one marked by emotional neglect, addiction, survival, and self-erasure, but with that also comes incredible grit, self-awareness, and resilience. Julia speaks about living with the trauma of not feeling worthy, and the long, complex journey of unlearning that narrative.  Together, they explore what it means to numb emotions through substance or toxic relationships, the role of compartmentalization as a survival mechanism, and the beauty of reclaiming identity through motherhood, celibacy, and sobriety. Julia shares how prayer, manifestation, and divine timing helped shift her path and how writing her memoir became the therapy she needed. Through tears, laughter, and confessions, this episode reminds us that healing doesn’t always look linear. Sometimes it looks like chaos, courage, and the difficult choice to keep going. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Break the Cycle of Feeling Unworthy How to Set Boundaries That Protect Your Peace How to Reclaim Control After Addiction How to Be Okay With Being Seen How to Heal Without Needing Closure How to Build a Life Without Numbing Yourself How to Accept What You Can’t Change Your truth is not too much. Your past does not define your future. And you are worthy, always.  With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:01 Owning Your Main Character Energy 03:15 Finding Beauty in Everyday Moments 04:29 The Art of People Watching 05:04 How Childhood Trauma Shapes Self-Worth 08:15 Growing Up in Emotional Isolation 09:42 Coping by Shutting Down 14:21 Entering a World of Survival & Power 18:21 The Power of Setting Boundaries 19:36 How Prayer Became a Path to Change 23:13 Escaping Her Darkest Moments 25:30 A Friendship That Changed Everything 26:34 How Motherhood Became Her Lifeline 28:31 The Freedom of Living Your Truth 31:12 Why Parental Support Matters 33:30 Navigating a Difficult Parental Relationship 34:50 Accepting What You Can’t Control 35:59 The Lasting Impact of Emotionally Unavailable Parents 36:53 Surviving Near-Death Experiences 38:38 Finding the Will to Live 39:31 What the Adult Industry Taught Her About Power 40:56 The Pressure to Prove Yourself 42:00 Letting Go of People’s Opinions 44:22 The Fear of Being Truly Seen 45:37 Reflecting on Past, Present, and Future 57:10 Processing a Traumatic Miscarriage 58:37 Finding Purpose in Helping Others 01:01:26 Julia on Final Five Episode Resources: Julia Fox | TikTok Julia Fox | InstagramSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. I was dead for 11.5 minutes. And returned. It's a miracle I was brought back. Alive Again, a podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive Again on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. To see me, who would go to jail, get arrested, get into fights, steal stuff, break stuff, trespass, overdose 100 times, just a mess, and then to see me be successful, I'd probably hate me too. Julia Fox is known for many things.

A fashion designer, actress, author. You know from films such as Uncut Gems and No Sudden Moon, as well as the host of OMG Fashion on E. Julia Fox! What's a childhood experience that you feel left a defining mark on your life? My parents always fighting like horrible horrible fights. I would just like go into the bathroom and I would just turn on the hairdryer and I just lay on the

floor for like six hours. At 17 you decided to become a sex worker. I could really disassociate and detach. I think that's why it was so easy for me to enter an industry like that. And I actually found the whole experience really empowering. For the first time in my life I actually kind of gained some self-worth. Where did you get addicted to heroin in that journey? It's akin to like what being in your mother's womb would feel like. Heroin kind of became a replacement mommy.

You say in the book that motherhood saved you? If there's one thing I'm determined to do is to not give him a childhood. What was that journey for you to actually get clean? I had to do all that messy stuff and be that girl to end up in this chair today. The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. I'm so excited to finally share the live interviews from my very first podcast tour, presented by Chase Sapphire Reserve. The first episode features an unforgettable conversation with none other than Julia Fox, recorded live at the iconic theater

at Madison Square Garden in New York City. Special thanks to MSG Entertainment and the theater at Madison Square Garden. I want to start by saying this, me and Julia were talking about this on the way down from the green room. We're talking about how you wouldn't expect to see me and Julia on talking about this on the way down from the green room. We're talking about how you wouldn't expect to see me and Julia on the same stage together.

And we're from very different worlds, very different backgrounds, but over the last few days, I've been listening to her audio book, Down the Drain, her book, her memoir, I listened to it. And I can honestly say that her story was so powerful, it was empowering, it was fascinating and if

I'm completely honest the reason I built On Purpose was to have conversations like this where you might be surprised find it unexpected but to find the common tissue that we all look for as humans and so I'm so grateful you said yes and thank you so much. Thank you. That's actually something I want to say, is like a lot of times we're more alike than we are different, you know, and you kind of have to make the effort sometimes to ask questions and be interested,

and because a lot of times we're all kind of going through the same stuff, you know, and I feel like we're so programmed to see the differences, and especially, you know, we're getting so much influence telling us that these people are bad and that, you know, and we're just constantly being divided. But really, we all have very similar feelings, you know? Yeah, we're going through so many of the same emotions,

the same ups and downs, the same challenges. And I want to dive into some of those with you, but I wanted to start off with something funny that I thought you said that I love. You once said, I've always been the main character in my head. And I wanted to ask, seeing as we're in New York, how do you channel main character energy? I mean, I think everyone living in New York feels that way.

You know, it's like, why me? You feel that way in New York? I think we kind of have to be that way, you know? And also, we are that way just naturally, you know? Some people admit it and some people don't, you know? But totally, you know, especially here in New York where like, you know, no two days are alike and some days it feels like everything is going wrong. Like I remember I would have this game

that I would play with myself where like, if I went, cause I'd go to school, I'd take the subway and if like I was getting down to the subway and the door would stop right in front of me then I knew it was gonna to be a good day. You know? And it really like, it did set kind of a precedent for the rest of the day, but... Well, Julia, before we dive into the deeper work here,

I have to ask you this question. Seeing as you have been a lot of people's muse, who's your muse? My muse is me. No, but like in all seriousness, it changes, you know, I'm just really inspired by the life experience, just the everyday things that we overlook. I think life is just one big gray area.

And I think for a long time, I really thought in black and white, but now I realize that there is no truth. Everybody's truth is equally valid for the most part. But we're just all experiencing in our perceptions, everybody's truth is equally valid for the most part. But like there's, you know, we're just all experiencing in our perceptions, you know, everyone's valid in some way, or the reason that they think that way is valid in some way.

I just try to really keep an open mind and especially open eyes and open heart. And I just get inspiration from everywhere. I really love people. I'm definitely like an avid people watcher. People watching in New York sounds fun. It's amazing. Tell me about your latest venture.

I mean, even just like going out to the grocery store or like going to a party, like sometimes I'll just like sit back and watch. I mean, it's kind of hard because I get a lot of people talking to me all the time but I prefer to just kind of be like a fly on the wall. I can definitely be the life of the party too but sometimes I just want to like watch all the little micro things happening all around. It's just like fascinating to me. You've lived an extremely fascinating life, as I was saying when I was listening to your audio book.

I wanna dive into that. And I wanna start, as I often do on on purpose, talking about childhood, because I learned very early on when I was researching and studying just how those years are so formative when we look at the psychology of what we pursue, what we chase, what we fear, what we worry about.

And it's something we all go through. We all have a reference point to that time in our life. I wanted to ask you, what's a childhood experience that you feel left a defining mark on your life, especially when it comes to your relationship with your parents? You know, there were many experiences, but I think the overall thread throughout all of them was really feeling unimportant.

And I still carry that with me very much today, of feeling like I'm not worth it. You know? And that is so hard, because I could get so much validation and so much affirmation, but I still have that little voice in the back of my head that's like, you're nothing, you're not important, you're not worth it. So I just wanna say like, yes, being in the public eye and it looks like fun and whatever, but it's like, no,

we're still just people and I still definitely have days where I don't want to get out of bed, and I feel just not worth it. Like, life's not worth it, and I'm not worth it. And if it weren't for my child, I probably wouldn't get out of bed, like most days, actually. So I still definitely carry a lot of that trauma, I guess, if you want to call it. I definitely carry that with me today. And people are like, go to therapy,

like do something about it. But it's like, I'm not worth it. You know, it's that like same cycle. It's a cycle, you know, but it's not all the time, but I definitely, you know, like even when something good happens to me, I'm like, yeah, but I don't deserve it. You know?

That's what's fascinating about that thought cycle is that when something negative happens, it affirms your belief that you're not worth it. And then when something good happens, it's almost a feeling of, well, I don't deserve it, I'm still not good enough for it. It's a fluke. It's a fluke. Yeah, I got lucky.

I always say that, I just got lucky, guys, you know. But then I know that if I really were to like, you know, look at all the hard work and sacrifice, that I do deserve it, you know. And my logical mind can identify that. But my emotional mind is still very much like, no. Yeah, and those two minds, I mean, how many of you can relate to that? Right? Everyone can relate, right?

It's something that, that cycle of when something good happens to us as humans, we're so good at being like, yeah, I got lucky this time. Oh, when is it going to go? Right, that's another thought. Yeah, when is it going to get taken away from me? When are they going to realize I'm a fraud?

When are, you know, like, it's crazy. Yeah, when are people going to find out I'm an imposter? When are people going to find out that I don't belong at this table? Yeah, it's such a thing. What was it in your childhood that you think did that? Like, what do you think of when you think of that? Where is that? You know, I think my parents were dealing with a lot with each other and they couldn't really...

You know, it's like boomer parents. They were just very caught up in their own stuff and always, always fighting like horrible, horrible fights. And I remember I would just like go into the bathroom because it was the only room in the house that had a lock on the door. And I would just turn on the hairdryer and I just lay on the floor for like six hours until it was like quiet. And then I could go back and like reintegrate into the household.

But it was just a very kind of isolating, oppressive childhood. I mean, there were moments like that were great. I had a great relationship with my grandparents. I feel like I would not be here without them. My grandma encouraged me as an artist, like she saw that I had a talent, so we would always be you know making art together, going to museums, going to galleries, going to plays, ballets, you know, all the things I didn't do with my parents. And then my grandpa on my mom's side,

he just made me feel really loved and kind of that was more of an emotional bond. So if I didn't have that, I don't think I would be alive today. It's so fascinating as I'm listening to you, I can relate to that. So I grew up in a home where me and my sister would wake up to my parents going slow-mo. It's crazy how much parents fighting affects kids.

Sorry, not to... It's crazy. I grew up in an emotionally, physically abusive household. And often when people meet me, they just think I had the most perfect childhood and it's why I do what I do today. And I often explain it's the opposite. I spent my whole childhood mediating my parents' marriage. And so the work I do today comes from having years,

meaning since I was like seven years old, of listening to challenges, carrying pain, listening to emotions. And thankfully, it made me stronger. And through the work I've done, it didn't create a lack of, it allowed me to create self-dependence. Yeah. And that took a lot of work, it didn't just happen. But it's so fascinating when I see how did that affect someone else I love, whether it

was another family member. And to your point, one thing that stood out, which I recommend to anyone who's a parent in this room or wants to be a parent, it's what you just said about the relationship you had with a grandparent. My mom's love was like a shield. Like my mom's love was like this shield where like she just gave me so much love that I would never have to question whether I was worthy of love or lovable because that's how powerful a mom's love is. And when I think about as we're sitting here and finding these similarities and commonalities in our life, I wanted to ask you, your life in your teens took a very different turn.

And as I heard at 17, you decided to become a sex worker or became one. And I want to understand just what that journey looks like, because for you to go from feeling not enough, to feeling unloved, to feeling not worthy, talk to me about how that connects to that decision and how you walk that path. Well, I think from a really young age, I just really learned to compartmentalize. So I could take something I didn't like,

put it in a little box and put it in a shelf all the way in the back of my brain and I could really disassociate and detach and just be on autopilot. And I think that's why it was so easy for me to enter an industry like that because I could just shut down like that. It was my superpower actually. And I actually found the whole experience really empowering, especially becoming a dominatrix, where I could really channel a lot of aggression and a lot of anger that I had toward men or toward me

or toward anything that was going on. I could really kind of find an outlet for it. And I actually, for the first time in my life, I actually kind of gained some for the first time in my life I actually kind of gained some self-worth weirdly. I always say obviously there's different pockets of the sex industry. I found one that worked for my specific issues and it was very therapeutic and when people asked me like, when did you get into acting? I was told I'm well first of all I've been acting my whole life, you know,

acting like you're okay when you're not, you know, acting? I was told, well, first of all, I've been acting my whole life, acting like you're okay when you're not, acting like the class clown to make people laugh because you feel like such a piece of shit. And then in the Dominatrix dungeon where I play a nurse, a teacher, a mom, a nun, six times a day, different characters, I just became really good at like improv and doing that. So, back to what you were saying, how you had this kind of tough childhood,

but you were able to then use all those skills that you inadvertently learned to now do this and help so many people. It's like, you have to sometimes take those bad things that happened to you in life and you know find your purpose in it in a weird way because it's the only way that it'll make you feel better for the things that happen or it'll like make it not as bad or something that you can actually be grateful for. You know there are times today where I'm like you know I'm

grateful that I went through all those things because I have the wisdom and the experience and I can now pass it on and give other girls hope, you know, and I feel like that's the difference between the people that make it and the people that don't, you know, there are some people that just can never really find a way to make it like their purpose or their calling or and then it just kind of never finds an outlet from their soul, and it just eats them up alive. Or then they become the abuser and perpetuate that cycle. Absolutely.

Just like, as I'm listening to you, I'm actually just, how do you even discover the industry? Like how does someone... Craigslist, baby. Craigslist. That's his? Yeah. Really?

Yeah. Oh, you're not joking at all? No. No. But like, how did you even... So I knew about it because in the seventh grade, I had this, one of my many codependent besties, and I would live at

her house and it was three sisters and an alcoholic mom and the older sister was a dominatrix and the only full-length mirror was in my besties room so she would get dressed she'd buy all this stuff from like the sex stores and come in and put them on and it was the black platform is in the thigh highs and the fishnets and and then that's when I was informed, oh she's a dominatrix and you know at that point like I figured it out or something. So I always kind of knew that it was an option that I could always like just do what she did and she looked so hot and cool and it just seemed like just just seemed fun and exciting. And listen, at the time I'd already, you know, worked in the service industry.

I had so many jobs, waitress, pastry shop, ice cream shop, shoe store, you know, and listen, you're never gonna be able to support yourself on $7.15 an hour, it's ridiculous. Like raise the minimum wage, god damn it. And I had to move out. something happened at home and I literally had to move out with the clothes on my back. And, you know, I could only really like stay at friends' houses for so long.

I had to contribute in some way. So that's what I did. So it was a fully survival thing? Yes, definitely survival. I don't think I would have just chosen to do it. So that's what I did. So it was a fully survival thing at the time. Yes, definitely survival. I don't think I would have just chosen to do it. But I am glad that I did. Yeah, I feel like I really kind of learned,

it was like a crash course in the male psyche. Tell us. Men are weird. There's a lot of people who are intrigued. Tell us about the male psyche. I mean, it's just like all the different fetishes and stuff. There are just so many. This is not a conversation I make, is there?

And they're so weird. Like belly buttons, blue jeans, hair, like on your head, not even down there. Like they just men get so infatuated with the like weird random things that women possess on them. And I also found actually interestingly enough that the more powerful a man was in his career in his life, the more submissive he would be with me. Like it was almost like these scales were tipped and in order for him to find that balance, he'd have to come to me to degrade him and tell him what a piece of shit he was

and tell him that his employees hate him and his wife hates him and you know, and just beat the shit out of him. And it really got me thinking, like humans really need balance. And I learned that really. Yeah, that's what you took away. But I saw that. I was able to see that firsthand, you know.

And I thought that was really interesting, you know, how he can go out there and be this tough guy and then here he's like crawling on all fours and drinking my pee out of a dog bowl. And it was just really interesting, you know? I love that balance is what you took away from that. It's just amazing. It's amazing. I was going to say that I learned about balance but at the monastery. It was completely opposite.

We came to the same conclusion though. And as I'm listening to you, I know that, I was going to ask you actually, how do you even, like what do you think are the misconceptions about sex workers or what did you learn by actually being in the industry that you think is relevant for people who are not connected, may not understand, may not know, whatever it may be, what would you say those are? I mean, I would just say to anyone thinking about it, obviously now today with OnlyFans and there's so many ways to be in the sex industry without ever touching a man, which is like amazing.

But back in my day, that was not the case. I would just say like set a firm boundary in your head going into it and don't cross it. And the moment you cross it, just stop because then it, just stop because then it'll just keep happening. And I made that mistake and it kind of does like wear on you a little bit.

You know, and then it's like, well, nobody will ever know but you will know, you know, and that you will never escape. You know, it's almost easier to someone else know and not you. But your clients, they will take and take and take and take. So you just have to be really firm in what line you're not going to cross. Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. Hi Key. Shout out to my thick thighs.

We'll save lives, clearly. Save lives. I'm a strong believer that there has to be at least one thick thigh in every relationship. Like, it's personally why I don't really go for guys who have the same body type as me because it's like playing a xylophone when you're cuddling, you know? Bone on bone hurts. Wait a second, Edie, that was the hottest thing you've ever said. Can we please ignore that? It's the realest. That was not the hottest thing you've ever said, can we please ignore that? It's the realest.

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I'll be there, like, weird massage chair in the bath with all my knuckles and elbows and they'll be like my memory foam bed, you know? We balanced. Honestly, the bigger the build the better. I want to feel petite. Please! I love a man with thighs, I love a man with arms. A little belly. I've been super into the little like, bitty boys right now with a little belly. You put that little belly out. Hey! That's what you're supposed to have. High-key. Listen to High-key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now back to the discussion. It's quite remarkable you learned so many lessons. You've learned balance, boundaries, you know, acting, like you were just saying, like role play. Like why and when did that end? Like why did that period of your life come to a close and then where did you pivot to?

I'll tell you, another thing that I learned then was manifestation through prayer. So I would pray every single night. I'm not kidding. I would pray for a sugar daddy. Like, pray. Like, long prayers, long, long prayers. A lot of bargaining, a lot of bargaining and begging God to please send me a sugar daddy,

and he did. He did. He did. He did. The best one ever, also. He sent me a sugar daddy and he did. He did. He did. He did. The best one ever also. I got really, really lucky. We're still friends.

I love him to death. And that's kind of how I got out of that. Was that always your get out card? Was that your thought in your head when you were praying? When you're in that kind of lifestyle, you're not really thinking long-term, you know? I feel like having the ability to plan and do all these things, like that's something

for like well-adjusted people. When you're living like I was, it was very much like survive the day, get through the day, and maybe something good will happen, you know? So I was really just kind of looking for a means to an end. And it was really only kind of after my situation with my sugar daddy broke up

that I actually started to live for me, and try to make it on my own. And all my blessings and everything I've been able to achieve only happened once I got out of that, funny enough. And was your faith in God something you always had? Always. Where did that come from? I'm not really sure. I'm Italian. I lived in Italy for some of my childhood with my grandpa.

He was very faith-based and we prayed every night and I always kind of knew that that God was there or something was there, a presence was there and it's like you can only have two like so many coincidences before you're like okay there's something cosmic here you know and also I feel like when you're kind of in desperation and and not feeling so great I find that those are usually the times or the people that really turned to God. And I was very much like unwell for a long time. So I needed to believe that God was real.

It's incredible to hear you talk about it from both sides. Like, you know, a second ago, we were like belly laughing. And then at the same time, there's like this real survival, desperation, stress, trying to get through every day as you just said, like just trying to make it through till the end of the day and the reality of just not. How would you feel at the end of a day? Like what would be going through your mind? Would it just be? I didn't feel, no. Like I did so many drugs, like every single drug under the sun. I was smoking pot all the time, like before, like literally wake up first thing,

like digging a roach out of an ashtray, you know, like just that level of numbness at all times. So, like feeling is still kind of fairly like a newer thing for me. And I still have a lot of trouble articulating how I'm feeling. Like I just kind of fairly like a newer thing for me. And I still have a lot of trouble articulating how I'm feeling. Like I just kind of shut down. Because that was the only way to get through it was to just be numb. Yeah.

And to just not feel, because if you were to, it would have... It would just open a floodgate and who knows what could happen, you know? Because usually when I would be emotional, it'd be kind of like a meltdown and then I'd end up in like a hospital or something. So it was just better to not even go there at all. Yeah, that's so fascinating to hear that.

I think so many of us feel that in different ways where we find a numbing agent, whatever that may be for us, for some of us it's TV, sugar, alcohol, drugs, whatever it may be, there's some sort of way of just kind of not self-regulating, but externally regulating our emotions and feelings, because we just don't want to feel that. For you, as you were doing that, where did you get addicted to heroin in that journey? Because that became quite a big part of it.

When I found heroin, it was like... I would say that it's akin to like what being in your mother's womb would feel like. Like the warmth and that everything is going to be okay. And, you know, I think I probably liked it so much because of the disconnect I had with my own mother. So heroin kind of became a replacement mommy or something, you know. And yeah, I discovered heroin in high school and I took it all the way into my mid-20s, you know, on and off, on and off. Sometimes I'd be off for years and then I'd always go back. So, you know, it only really took my best friend, the love of my life, overdosing in 2019 for me to,

which is fairly recently, for me to really be done because that really shook me to my core. And I felt like her dying had to at least do one good thing, you know? And if that could just be me not getting high anymore, I know that she would approve of that. I know that it would make, I don't know, it's not that it would make it less horrible, but I just had to find some kind of silver lining

or something to attach myself to. So now I, you know, don't do that anymore in honor of her. So sorry to hear that. How long did you both know each other and how were you? We actually met in AA and it was a funny story. We were sitting next to each other and my like horrible ex-boyfriend was also there and we hadn't seen each other in a long time and he was there with this girl who had like cyber bullied me on Instagram and I just stood up and I said, hey, this room is unsafe for me.

There are abusers in here and I just made such a scene, which is like fairly uncommon and it doesn't really happen, but I did it. And she loved it. She was like, yeah, yeah, tell him, tell him. And then I just sat back down, and that was it. We were together every single day after that. It was like we really found each other. But with every kind of relationship like that, it was

only a matter of time before we both left to go get high together, you know. So it's pretty cliche, but it's still a beautiful love story nonetheless. What was that journey for you to actually get clean from her? And like, what was that journey like for you? I can't imagine it's easy and like you said you used The loss of her as as fuel as inspiration as a guiding light during a really really tough time But what did it actually take from you to now be able to sit here and say well, that's not something I do anymore well, well she died and then I got pregnant six months later and had my son and She died and then I got pregnant six months later and had my son. And if there's one thing I'm determined to do is to not give him a shitty childhood.

And in order for me to do that, I have to be sober. So yeah. So it all happened pretty quick. And honestly, I don't think I would have even had my son if she hadn't passed away. But at that moment, it was like anything to fill that void and that heartbreak, you know, it was, I just wanted to feel better. And actually, funny story, when I was about,

I can't remember now, I put it in my book, but like a couple weeks into my pregnancy, I had a dream, she came to me in a dream. And I told her, I'm pregnant, I'm pregnant. I'm having, I want you to come back as my pregnancy. She came to me in a dream and I told her, I'm pregnant, I'm pregnant, I want you to come back as my baby. I want you to be reincarnated as my baby. And she said, because she was always really funny, she was like, I don't want to come back as a boy. And that's how I found out I was having a boy. I went to the doctor and I told them, I think I'm having a boy. My dad best friend came to me in a dream

and he was like, you're psychotic. But then we did the test and I was having a boy. So she was right. So I still feel like she's with me and everything I do. Yeah, you say in the book that motherhood saved you. Because I just don't have time to do anything else. It really is like three full-time jobs. But it did save me.

When you finally found the sugar daddy and you got out of sex work from your prayers, where did that pivot happen from that getting you out of there and then moving into acting? Like how did that happen? You know, people knew who I was. Like I was like a hood celebrity, you know. And these directors heard about me and wanted to meet me. And they were writing a part for this young girl who has kind of a sugar daddy situation, and that movie would go on to become Uncut Gems.

So I auditioned like everyone else, unfortunately, even though they had written it for me, the studios were like, we don't know her. Like they wanted Scarlett Johansson and all these other women, beautiful women, and established actresses. And at the time, I didn't even know if I could like actually act, act, you know? But I had a hunch.

And so, you know, I did a screen test with Adam Sandler and it went really well. And they were able to convince the studios to let me do it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But that's why I always tell people, like, the studios to let me do it. Yeah, absolutely. But that's why I always tell people, like, live your truth. Like, even if you're messy or wild or cringe, like, don't hide that because you never know who's watching.

You know, like, I was so embarrassing, like, truly so embarrassing. But it caught these people's eyes, you know? What was embarrassing? What were you doing? Well, you know, everyone knew that I was living off my sugar daddy's money. And there you go. It was like everybody knew it. It was, you know, but it was like frowned upon, you know, like people would talk shit about me or didn't want to be my friend. Or it was just like I was always kind of looked at it like as the spectacle you know and I was known to like cause a

scene or just be loud and sometimes violent and violent yeah definitely tell us about the violin well I grew up in a violent home so that's kind of how I learned to like problem-solve. Like if I want a new problem to go away, you, you know. So I, you know, I've definitely been known to throw hands, but you know, now I'm like, ugh, it's so embarrassing, you know, but like I had to do all that messy stuff and be that girl to end up in this chair today speaking with all of you. So just always be yourselves.

It's so fascinating. For me, seeing that in my home made me never want to be angry, never want to be violent, never want to raise my voice and never kind of create that atmosphere again. And it's so interesting just how as humans we make those choices at different stages in our life and where they go from there. One thing that really stood out to me in your book, Down the Drain, is when you mentioned, when you were young, you said to your mom you wanted to be a rock star, and she laughed.

And then when you booked Uncut Gems, she laughed again. Talk to me about those two moments and why you remember them so vividly and what they meant. Because it's like you'd expect your parent to be so happy and so supportive, but she could just never do it. She could never do it. And I think now that I'm also a mom,

I can see her as a human, and I see a woman who came from nothing and did everything she was supposed to do. She went to college, went to university, she worked as a nurse, she did all the things worked as a nurse, she did all the things to become a doctor, and was just always a good girl.

And then to see me, who literally did the opposite, would go to jail, get arrested, get into fights, steal stuff, break stuff, trespass, you know, just overdose a hundred times, you know, just overdose a hundred times, you know, oh just a mess, and then to see me be successful I'm sure is a mindfuck. Yeah, like I'd probably hate me too. Like I'm sure there's like a human, you know, jealousy is very real even between mothers and daughters. I see it all the time.

I couldn't fathom it, because I see my loved ones as an extension of myself, but with my mom and I, it was always very clear that we were on two opposite ends for some reason, and we could never bridge that gap. I don't know if we ever will, to be honest, but I know that I have to protect my piece and not keep trying just to be disappointed all the time, you know. I just can't do it anymore.

As I'm looking at you, it feels like you've tried a lot. Not that much, but there have been a few times, yeah. What have you tried and when did you try and? Just trying to mimic what a mother-daughter relationship is supposed to look like and playing that part, playing that role, acting that part, only to be met with not her playing that part back. And I realized that we can't just turn it on and be mother and daughter and there needs

to be some unpacking. But every time I try to talk about things, it's complete denial. It's almost like she lived in a different house. Well, she really did live in a different house. She lived in Italy my whole life, so I only saw her twice a year. So that also played a big part. But there were obviously prolonged periods as well that we would be together. But even then, it just always felt like she was just very uninterested. Yeah. And I could see that it

wasn't like that with my brothers, that she had way more of a connection and she put the effort and had more of a genuine interest for them. So, and I picked that up very, very young. How have you reconciled that now? I'm sure there's lots of people in the room who have challenges with parents, potentially even challenges with kids. How have you reconciled that?

What have you, how have you come to as close to peace or a boundary that you've been able to set with that? You know, I wouldn't say it's forgiveness because how do you forgive a betrayal like that? But there is an acceptance, which I think is the closest thing to forgiveness. And it's so hard to accept because it's really hard to accept things that we can't change, you know?

The control freak in us wants to change it and fix it and make it okay. But you need the other person to also put in the effort too. So I think really for me, I'm not a place of acceptance, that this is just the way it's going to be. And if I keep trying to fight it or change it, I'm really only hurting myself. And, you know, I have a child I have to show up for, I have to be happy and positive. So, like, why am I going to let her have that too? You know, like, I'm not going to, I'm just not going to do that.

It takes a lot to draw those boundaries with the people that we love and sadly... Especially your parents. Especially your parents. Like now that I'm a parent and I have parents, it's like you can have more than one kid. You could have ten kids, but you can only have one mom and one dad. Like in that way, like, you know, obviously there's people, there's blended families, but it's a really, really, really important relationship. And I take it to the highest level of importance.

To me, it's sacred. Nothing comes before my child. So, I mean, I just don't understand how for her it's not the same. Did she ever go to therapy? She's a psychologist. Wow. Yeah, that's why I don't trust them and I don't want to go.

Wow. That's fascinating. I know. When you were addicted to drugs or even when you were a sex worker, did you ever have any near death experiences? Yes, many. And actually my best friend Brianna once called my mom

in Italy and was like, your daughter's dying, come here and get her. She hung up the phone. What happened to you? I lived. No, no, no, I mean, I mean that day, she had to make that call to your mom. I honestly don't even remember.

I think I probably just like OD'd on heroin or something. Was that a regular occurrence or...? Yeah. But that was the only time that she called your mom? Yeah. I think it was like the first time it ever happened. Yeah. And my friend just got so scared.

I was living at her house at the time and she just like found me like that and freaked out and just didn't know what to do. But her mom stepped in as my kind of surrogate mother and helped me a lot. Oh, her mom? Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. The beauty of having that kind of void

is that I really attracted so many amazing women with that kind of instinct or that ability to kind of sniff out like, oh, this child needs mothering. So I've had so many kind of, you know, pseudo maternal figures in my life. And I feel like when I think of my mom, I think of all of them, you know, my advisor in high school who like saved my life. And a lot of them were my friend's parents and they really took me in and moms are just amazing. Like having a horrible experience with mine

doesn't take away that I can identify that moms really are amazing. I understand that my mom's like an exception. Yeah. You have one of the most fascinating minds and lives of anyone I've ever interviewed, honestly. Oh my God. I find it so incredible that despite the challenges

and trials and tribulations that you were going through in your life, you were able to at the same time identify goodness and pray, look for ways out, see sacredness in your friends and other people. It's a survival instinct. It's like you don't even realize you're doing it. It's that will to live that we all innately have. Like I didn't set out to do any of that stuff. I didn't realize I was doing it until after.

But I really, I think, pardon me, as much as I wanted to die, I also really wanted to live. And I had to find love and goodness wherever I could. Because I think as people, that's really all we want. We want to be seen and we want to be loved. Did you have any dangerous encounters as a sex worker? Or were you the one inflicting the... I was the one. They were in danger. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, and obviously I understand that my experience is very unique, you know. Obviously I had some clients that were better than others, but for the most part I always had very good instincts. If I felt like something was weird, I would just leave, you know. I'd leave the room and go get someone else. You know, also, S&M is a very, you know, it's really the only place in the world where, like, the women rule. Like, I'd never seen that before. I'd always kind of seen the opposite of that. So I think being able to be in that so young really kind of shaped how I see the world today, because I see so many discrepancies and disparities and how unfair this world is for women. But

in the S&M world, we were the people in charge calling the shots and men were just there to drink pee out of a dog bowl. You know? It was amazing, it was heaven, it was paradise. Ha! It's um... We'll just let that sit for a second. No. But first, here's a quick word from the brands that support the show.

I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept,

but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommates' toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Alright, thank you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. All right. Thank you to our sponsors.

Now let's dive back in. There's this recurring pattern that I could hear about when I was listening to your book, this idea of proving yourself, proving yourself to your mom, proving yourself to men you were dating, proving yourself to the industry, proving yourself constantly. And I still am all the time, but that's never ending. I think it's so hard for a woman to show up in a room and just be given the benefit of the doubt. Whereas men walk in and they're just given the benefit

of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Whereas women, it's always the opposite. We kind of have to work a little bit harder. So, you know, especially if you're like an unconventional woman or a weird woman or a neurodivergent woman or a loud woman, it's like, oh my God, the odds are so stacked against you. But, you know, that's not to stop me from being who I am.

A big part of what we've been talking about here this evening before you came out was this idea of how we feel judged when we walk into a room or how we think others think of us and how we worry about that. I'm sure when you're walking into rooms to audition, act, meeting directors, producers, I'm sure that there's so many things you think people think of you. How have you found coping mechanisms to that anxiety, stress, nervousness that naturally exist?

And people shared earlier so vulnerably and beautifully in front of 5,000 people. We had people standing up and really opening their heart. What goes through your mind and what techniques, abilities, practices have you developed in order to allow yourself to walk into a room and not feel that anxiety and stress? Well first of all I think everyone's feeling that way. You know, I think people are so just worried about themselves all the time anyway. Like, they're probably thinking the same thing about you. And another thing is also, like, it's really not that deep.

We have the attention span of a goldfish. People will forget. Like, nothing is serious. Like, just don't take it so seriously, you know? And also, if you walk into a room and they don't take it so seriously, you know? And also if you walk into a room and they don't like you, it's probably because they're whack. Like, you know, I've come to find honestly, like people that don't like me are kind of people I wouldn't even really want to like me anyway. You know, like they're just not cool.

So I think just lead with that mindset. Yeah, I remember seeing this meme. I don't know who wrote it or where it came from, but it says, confidence isn't everyone will like me. Confidence is I'll be okay even if they don't. Don't like you, yeah. And it's that idea of just, we think confidence means everyone likes me,

everyone notices me when I walk in the room and that I can control the crowd. And it's like, well, that's not confidence. And also if you try to please everyone, you just end up pleasing no one. So it's just better to just be genuine because at least, like I always tell people, like take the mask off, be yourself. So then you can attract people that are like-minded. And then once you have your tribe and your people, you're invincible. You know, It doesn't matter what happens to you because you'll have your fam that understand you

and agree with you and know that you're the bomb. You've said that you're not afraid of being alone, but you've been afraid of being truly seen, which I find to be really interesting because I think a lot of us are scared to be truly seen in all of who we are. Where are you on that journey? I mean, I feel like even being here tonight

and going so deep and talking about things that are, you know, kind of things I usually just put in a compartment in the back of my brain and just pretend like they don't exist, like this is a big part of it. Also, I find that when you share a secret or share something that's been weighing you down, you share it with somebody, you're also sharing the weight with someone else. Now we can all carry this together and it's less of a burden for you. So I think just like don't hold it's less of a burden for you. So I think just like don't hold it in, it'll eat you up.

Like just if you're feeling something, tell somebody. Otherwise you're just going to, it's going to eat you up and you're going to feel so isolated and so alone and it's just no way to live. Well said. I fully agree. It's one of the reasons I've been encouraging everyone tonight to share their heart and so many brave souls have. I love that you were saying that recently

feeling's been a new phenomena for you. How recent is that and what have been some of the joyful, positive, healthy feelings that you've been experiencing? Probably when I quit smoking weed two years ago. So very, very recent. But you know, that's not to say that I didn't feel things before I obviously did, but I would just feel something and then pick up the pipe. Now I just do that. I always say like I'm strapping my seatbelt on and I'm going to move through it.

It's going to move through me. I'm not going to go over it. I'm not going to go around it. I'm just going to let it do its thing and it's going to pass. It's going to pass. It's pretty remarkable to have gone from that extreme to this and like you just said, you're not on drugs anymore, not smoking weed and I believe you're celibate now too. Yes.

I was celibate as a monk for three years. I'm on three years too. You're on three years? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. All right, so you're gonna beat my record. Yeah, I think so, unfortunately.

What made you make that? Sorry, what did you say? I said, unfortunately. What made you make, was it always a commitment long term? Was it? No, no, I didn't even realize that I was doing it until I was doing it. You know, if I was like, oh my God, it's been six months, then it was like a year, oh my God, three, you know, it's just the time goes so fast.

But I've honestly found that that was another toxic relationship that I had with sex and with men. I don't think right now that I'm able to have a healthy, emotional, or romantic relationship with anyone, to be honest. I think I'm still really coming to terms with who I am and learning every day. Like sometimes, you know, even though I was so precocious, in a lot of ways I feel like I was a late bloomer, you know, because I just wasn't really living authentically and I was self-medicating and I was just in survival mode for so long.

So now that I can like, you know, sit back, I'm okay. I have a roof over my head. I have my family and everything, but it still feels like fairly new. So I think right now I just need to like be okay being with me. And that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. What did you learn from cutting out so many of these

things you were dependent on or had unhealthy toxic relationships within the past? Like what has it felt like to almost stop, you know, drugs, weed, practicing celibacy? Like what is that done for you? Like what are you experiencing from the detox? I mean like I can go grocery shopping and I can go to sleep when I'm supposed to and wake up when I'm supposed to and I can show up for people and I can be reliable

and responsible and dependable and you know I can be someone that somebody can count on. And I think I'm a great mom. I can just build a home, like a healthy, happy home with lots of snacks in the kitchen, and it's warm and nice. And just like all the basic things that all of you guys do. For so long, I just wasn't participating, you know? So, like, as people, we're always kind of focusing on, like, the big things, like, once I lose 10 pounds, then I'll be happy.

Once I get this promotion, I'll be happy. Once I get this car, then I'll be happy. Or this watch, or this bag. But really, life is all the little things. And you have to get those things in order. Because, yeah, you'll get that big thing, but then it'll be okay. What's next? You know, because it'll never fill the void.

You know, you have to get all the little things together and that's as little as eating healthy, sleeping enough, meditating, just spending time alone, recharging your batteries and seeing your friends and laughing, you know, like those are the things that happiness is built upon. So, you know, that's where I'm trying to live now because I was very much like, well, once I'll get a nose job, I'll be pretty and then I'll be happy, you know, and it was just always the cycle of trying to find the thing that'll make me happy without realizing that it was right in front of me, but I just needed to like water the damn seeds.

So that's what I'm doing now. Julia, for our tour we created a segment that we wanted to do with guests called Past, Present, Future. And it starts with a series of cards, just so that everyone knows, that are marked Past, Present and Future. And Julia has no idea what these questions are. So, Julia, what I'm going to ask you to do is I'm going to ask you to pick. And these questions will ask you either something, I'll come closer to you. They'll ask you something either about your past, present or future.

They're marked, so we'll see which one you pick. So do you want a past card, a present card or a future card? Do I pick at random or just... Oh no, it's totally up to you. Okay, you chose a present card. What does it say? What's the last photo in your photo roll? I didn't bring my phone out here with me.

We kept it away. You'll have to post it later. Okay, I'll post it later. Post it after the show so you can all go follow Julien and figure out what she posted. As long as you can post it. Okay, future. What niche hobby will you take way too seriously when you're older? Knitting. For sure.

I cannot wait to be at the nursing home. Leave me the hell alone. I just want to knit in peace. What's the first thing you're going to knit yourself? A blanket so I can put it on me as I knit. I just want to knit myself into a cocoon and be left alone for all eternity. Doesn't that sound amazing? I want you to pick one of the post-cuts.

Where was your first kiss? Okay guys, I have a confession. Okay, guys, I have a confession. I don't remember my first kiss. I know. That's part of being in the trauma. I don't remember a lot of stuff. I genuinely have no idea who it could be. It could be like a hundred different people. To end our past, present, future segment,

I want to show you a picture, if we can get the first one up, behind you in a second. Do you remember this moment? She was always hustling. Do you know where you were? Yeah, I was in front of my dad's building and I used to sell lemonade all summer long

and just stack paper. I had so much money. Well, how old were you? Do you remember that? I'm probably like eight or nine here. What advice would you give to your younger self that you look at in that picture? Keep stacking paper, girl.

No, I'm kidding. To just, like everything is gonna make sense, you know, just hang in there. Second one please, this is your present. What do you need to hear right now? What's the words that you need to hear right now in your life?

You are worthy. that you need to hear right now in your life? You are worthy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do you feel that's like a daily reminder right now?

Yeah. And... Oh God. We have a future, thanks to AI, we have a future version behind me. Ah! Okay, not so bad. OK. You look amazing. Yeah.

All right. What do you hope and intend that you'll think of yourself and. The people who really know you will say about you at their age. What do you think the people who deeply know you will say about you at that age. What do you think the people who deeply knew you in life, that really got to know you beneath the surface, will say about you at that age? That I'm a boss. I'm a boss ass bitch.

Yeah. Oh, Julia, you've been so brave, vulnerable, thoughtful, hilarious, inspiring to come here today. And it was so funny, we were walking up when Julia and I were walking up and she said to me, she goes, I'm pretty sure we don't have a lot of crossover in our audience and our community. And I'm hoping that this has been a positive experience for you. It has.

My greatest joy is in all of us learning so much about each other that we're able to see each other's humanity despite how we look, how we present ourselves, how we dress, what country we came from, what background we have, what walks of life and paths that we've been down because to me that's what the world really needs is the ability to look at someone's heart and soul and you've allowed me to try and give that opportunity to myself and everyone else who trusts me to do that today.

And I just want to say a big, big thank you and I hope this is going to be a... Thank you. Thank you guys so much. And thank you to Joe. Thanks for having me. I hope this is going to be the most surprising friendship of 2025. I hope this is going to be the most surprising friendship of 2025. I actually wanted to ask you one last question because you've talked so beautifully about your son and being a mother and the audience has really felt that and responded to that tonight. And you actually went through a miscarriage too, right? And was that before or after?

A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways. Three or four days a week I would buy two cups of banana pudding, but the price has gone up so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action and that's just one of the things we'll be covering on everybody's business from Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Max Chafkin. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith.

Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters and how it shows up in our everyday lives. With guests like Businessweek editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the board rooms, the backrooms, even the signal chats that make our economy tick. Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing.

So listen to everybody's business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was 17 and it happened in a bar. I'm pretty happy I had that miscarriage. I don't even know who, who the, yeah. How did that experience affect you at that time? Like I even remember that I was once at a pregame when I got a call that my grandpa had died. And I literally like shut off the phone and went back to the pregame

because like there was just no way that I was gonna deal with that. And I still have like breakdowns, like violent breakdowns about it. I'm just, I was just very good. I was trained to just shut it off, you know? Like shut it off, it didn't happen. Nobody knows, it's okay, move on. But you know, like I said, it's like, you know? Like, shut it off, it didn't happen, nobody knows, it's okay, move on, but you know, like I said,

it's like, you know, you know? So, you know, even though that particular miscarriage was probably God looking out for me, because I was no way ready to take on such a sacred role, it still does kind of feel like a little piece of you I was in no way ready to take on such a sacred role. It still does kind of feel like a little piece of you is chipped away at. Yeah, whether it's, like you said, being protection or whether it happens sadly and tragically,

it's still a part of you that was connected to it. Totally. And hearing about it from that perspective and how you've been able to just, this recurring theme in your life was connected to it and it's... Totally. And hearing about it from that perspective and... how you've been able to just... This recurring theme in your life of just... revisiting. And tonight I feel like you've...

And in your incredible book, you know, Down the Drain, your memoir, you've revisited some of these moments that I can't imagine rethinking, reliving, re-breathing. It was actually so cathartic. It was probably the closest I'd ever gotten to actually, because I've had a hundred therapists,

but then I stopped going, you know. But having to sit down every day and write that book, I mean, there were so many times that I was like, I'll just call a ghostwriter. Like, it's fine. Everybody does it. Like, it's okay. And I would just force myself to like, sit there and sit with the pain.

And I remember like I'd be flush, like my cheeks would be red, I'd be sweating because I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm like actually writing this. And it was like, I could have not written it, you know, but a part of me felt like I needed to, you know, like I needed to talk about it or release it in some way. And actually ever since writing the book I do feel like lighter, weirdly, like I'm

not carrying all that baggage alone and and also the response that I've gotten from it and you know every time a young girl comes up to me and she tells me that she broke up with her boyfriend because she read my book, I'm like, oh, you know, doing God's work out here. Just it doesn't get better than that, guys. But you know what I mean, it's like that's really what it's all about. You know, I think the most times I've ever felt close to happiness or joy, like real pure joy, was when I was able to help somebody without getting anything back.

Like that's really when I feel so at peace, you know, and so happy and joyful. So, you know, I think that's just, that's what it's about. And also I have this thing where it's like, I don't wanna burden anyone. I don't wanna be annoying. I don't wanna ask. I don't wanna be a problem. But it's like, I don't want to burden anyone. I don't want to be annoying. I don't want to ask. I don't want to be a problem. But it's like, no, people like it. People like it when you ask for help or ask for

stuff. Like I, that's something I really also would tell my president Julia, like, ask for help. Like, like, people like to be of service and people like to help you're doing them a favor too, you know, so because I always always think like I'll do it myself. I'll do it, like that's my whole thing. I did it myself. But like, it's not sustainable. I wanna thank you so much.

Thank you. Is there anything you wanna share? Any last words? I actually do wanna say one thing because you were mentioning meditation as I was walking out and in the third grade, my teachers and social workers told my dad that I was probably ADHD and needed to get medication and my dad actually put me in transcendental meditation classes.

Oh wow. And in that same year, I was failing all my classes. I was like a complete 180. I started getting A's and sitting at the front of my class and raising my hand. And if only I had stuck with it. That's all I'm going to say. But it really works. Meditation really works.

Are you back to it now? I, it's always on my to-do list and I never do it. But now, because I've told all of you and I hope you guys hold me accountable and write in my comments all day. I hope you're meditating today, Julia. If you guys could do that for me, you have no idea how much I need it. I will definitely pick back up.

All right, that's the first thing we're going to do today is meditate today. Yeah. Julia, as our on purpose audience knows, we end every episode with a final five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Okay. So, Julia Fox, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

The best advice I've ever heard or received is actually from my mom, who said, be nice to everyone because you'll never know when you need a favor. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received? To like stop doing so much. Yeah, to not be so extra. And I think that's horrible advice. That's like asking someone to like dim their light.

It's just a wild ask. I think you have to be extra and you have to be cringe and you have to be yourself. It's the only way you can really live authentically. Okay, went over the word count on that one. I'll give it to you. Oh my God, I forgot the one word. Question number three, what's something that you used to value that you no longer value? Drugs?

Great answer. I love it. Question number four, what's the first thing you do in the morning and the last thing you do at night? Tick-tock? Honest answer. And question number five, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow,

what would it be? Be nice to women. Judy Foxx, everyone! Give it up! If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation. Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents

or their brother, call them right now. Don't think you're going to have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week. That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life. The Made for This Mountain podcast exists to empower listeners to rise above their inner struggles and face the mountain in front of them. So during Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast, focus on your emotional well-being, and then climb that mountain.

You will never be able to change or grow through the thing that you refuse to identify, the thing that you refuse to say, hey, this is my mountain, this is the struggle. Listen to Made for This Mountain on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.