On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Kenneth Cole: ON How To Creatively Break Into The Career Of Your Choice

Episode Date: October 21, 2019

On this episode of On Purpose, I sat down with Kenneth Cole. Kenneth is a designer, activist, and married father of three. He speaks on the importance of resourcefulness for finding solutions to a closed door. How do we get from here to where we need to? Kenneth reminds us there’s an infinite amount of alternatives, and it’s up to us to refocus the lens on which we see obstacles. This episode will inspire creative insights to help get you to your desires. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Check out the R-Spot on the iHeartart Video app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. What do a flirtatious gambling double agent in World War II? An opera singer who burned down an honorary to Kittnapp Perlover, and a pirate queen who walked free with all of her spoils, haven't comment. They're all real women who were left out of your history books. You can hear these stories and more on the Womanica podcast. Check it out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. How do we make an impact in the world? How do we make a meaningful impact in people's lives? How do we make what we do worthwhile and purposeful?

It's a question I asked 30 years ago, 30 plus years ago, but it's a question I still ask today to answer is different. And the mechanism to realize it is different still. I believe the world needs a new set of real models, people with deep intentions behind their actions, and this is where you meet them. Today's guest is Kenneth Cole, and I'm so grateful because we all know he's a designer, he's an activist, he's a married father of three, who believes that he thrives at work, the home, and his community because he merges the three worlds.

Kenneth, I'm so grateful, honored, and happy to have you here. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you, Jay. That's very kind of you. I don't know that I thrive in each of those areas. I aspire to thrive in all three of those areas. Absolutely.

And last time we were together, you were so gracious and patiently sat and listened to me tell my story. I'm glad that I get to reciprocate today and listen to your incredible journey, your brand which is 35 years bold, which I love. But I want to start off asking you that question because I think my audience will love it.

How do you merge those three worlds? Because I feel that today today we live in a world that's so disconnected. People see their work, their family, their friends, as these three separate parts. But you've somehow aspired to merge them. How does that work? Let's unpack them. Well, I think they are separate parts, but I think that being successful at anything that we set out to do is all consuming and it requires making significant life compromises, which is not easy for anybody in and of itself. So one can be successful professionally and very believe they're taking away from their personal needs. And because they're working extra hours,

and they're giving themselves physically as well as emotionally, and mentally, they're not present to the degree they need to be. And then if they're successful personally, and their personal lives are coming together, and then very often they're struggling, the professional quotient of component doesn't always flow online. And then if you layer on top of that, the community outreach or engagement,

slash friends, then it complicates even further. So I came to realize, absence of a good therapist, that if I could somehow marry them of a good therapist that if I could somehow marry them and by my, what I did from nine or whenever it was, I showed up in the office, was addressing multiple agendas simultaneously, then I was more likely to find fulfillment in that process. So I brought social engagement into my business model very early on in the process. And I'm not sure it was intentional or it just happened then by nature of it, of being

able to bring all these incremental resources to it. It became successful in that regard. And then I'm also familiar at the same time as well, personal and professional and social engagement at every intersection. And I encourage people to do it, but it's hard. It's hard to be successful in anything. Let's rewind a little, because you talk about how, of course, you were going to law school, and then you switch into fashion, because you have this rebellious nature, and you thought that fashion didn't have any rules, as opposed to law. Tell us about that transition.

So I was going to go to law school, because I didn't know what I wanted to do, and I think I'm all about creating alternative paths. And so if I, with a legal education, I could now have one more set of opportunities, hopefully, to look forward to. But in that process, my father has small shoemaker at the time and is very depressed there in New York, Ouyama's bird. I love how it's changed.

And it's a voice of change. So then, so I worked with him one summer, who we own spurred. I love how it's changed. And it's a voice of change. So then, so I worked with him one summer and I have been navigating to the pattern room to the design room. And I, because I was fascinated, because that's where it all happened, it didn't happen. And if the product was distinctive and specifically appropriate, business would reflect it. And if it wasn't, it wasn't. So that's where I kept finding myself.

And I learned how to make shoes. I learned how to make patterns. I learned how to talk to myself how to draw technically, which I hadn't up until that point. And I realized quickly that law is about, it's a book. And he who learns it the best goes the furthest and he who can interpret it the most successfully realizes the greatest rewards.

Whereas in business, you pretty much write your own book every day, you write your rules and in fashion business, specifically the furthest of those rules are from anything written before you, more likely it is and you'll be successful. So there's essentially no boundaries. So, you know, we're taught as children to draw within the lines, but you realize in my business that they're more successful, the success usually is outside those lines. So, and I was fascinated with it and success was relatively reasonably short and coming or rewards from that success is a difficult word for me to, but why is it difficult? Well, because it's so subjective and success with success yesterday only defines new boundaries for tomorrow. And we can't kind of cite it.

We can't harbor over what happened yesterday because then we fail in our ability to do it. We need to do tomorrow. So, but we can get to that. Yeah, definitely. So, I realized that this business, this should be business at the time specifically was fascinating to me.

And there was essentially no boundaries. And you take this shoe, this object, and you can transform it in so many different subtle ways, and sometimes even the most subtle ways make the greatest change and impact the greatest. So, and I stayed on that path, and I kept differing going to our school and I eventually never went. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, fall in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career

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their financial goals. Ensure that your resolution turns into ongoing progress. Listen to how to money on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, once you're advised for people who are listening who feel like you did, they chose to do something because they don't know what to do. And I find so many people find that they end up in college degrees or jobs or positions and companies because they just didn't know what to do. How did you kind of break away from that and start using that as a launch pad to explore? Well, I don't know that I broke away from it.

I still sometimes wonder if I know what to do. But I knew that what I was doing felt good and I knew that I could do this in a way that could be meaningful in some way. And so, and I knew I needed to explore it further. And, and I, and the last one I could probably always do, and I was only, my interest in law really was just to create more opportunities for myself. And I found that I was on a path that was fulfilling to a degree so I just stayed on that path. Right.

And you ended up posing as a filmmaker to be able to sell shares at the beginning. Tell us about that, introduce us that story because I love it. So I left that work with my father after a couple of years and I wanted to do my own thing. And it was a hard decision, but I knew if I didn't do it then, my life would only get more complicated as I got older. And I was still single and I had no real obligations in the world and I so I had a little bit of money but not enough to start a business and very little bit of money so and I there wasn't these

mechanisms and points like tech world has today where you can raise you can do a raise and you can outsource and you can crowdsource and you can find all these resources I didn't have that so I go find me. Yeah. Right. So I wanted to start a business with some more personal. And I left what I was doing. And I needed to, and I named the company,

I set up a company, I named it Kenneth Cole, because there weren't these search engines then where you could make up a name and find out if it was onable. Because the process in there, we took 18 months before you knew there were objections and then you had to address those objections and then maybe you had to, you'd win or you'd lose and you'd have to rename your business.

So you could almost always get your name, your own name registered. So, I named the company Kenneth Cole, and I ran to Italy, knowing I had a better chance of getting credit from an Italian shoemaker that needed business than from American bank that didn't. And so I found a couple of factories, and I found some people over there

that were wanted to help me. And I designed a lot of cool lady shoes, and then I came back and had to sell them. And there was a trade show at the time, New York shoes show, as was what it was called. And then, in that process, you had two choices. You could take a room at the Hilton Hotel and there were about 1100 other shoe companies. And there was 34s,

30 somewhat companies per four. And the buyers would come and they'd walk all the fours. Not very distinctive, not very differentiated and not without cost. not very differentiated and not without cost. So, and then the other option was to take a big fancy showroom within a two-block radius of the Hilton Hotel with Kuyoi, I didn't have the money or the time for that either. So on a whim, I called the friend who was in the trucking business and I said if I could figure out

how to park one of your 40-foot trails across the street from the Hilton Hotel, would you end it to me? And he said, sure, jerk, this is New York. You can park a bicycle for 10 minutes and I'll own a truck for four days. I said, if I could figure it out, will you end it to me? He says, if you could figure it out, I'll help you decorate it.

So I call the mayor's office, it was Mayor Koch at the time. As an excuse in this, the mayor, how does one get permission to park a 40-foot trail in the corner of 6th, 9th, 56th Street? On December, first week in December, sorry, Mayor, how does one get permission to park a 40-foot trail in the corner of 6th and every 56th street? On December, first week in December, sorry, son, they don't. This is New York. We get permission only into two circumstances.

If you are utility company servicing the streets, AT&T or Kinet, or if you are production company shooting a full-length motion picture, because we are going through an I love New York campaign in the early 80s and we probably still are today. So I say thank you to the mayor on the phone. But after I went to stationary store, changed the letterhead from kind of co-inc to kind of co-productions, Inc. filed for permit the following morning with Mayor's office for permission

to shoot a falling motion picture called the birth of a shoe company. I opened for business on December 2nd, a week later, 10 days later. And I had two New York police minutes, my dormant, compliments of our fine man. And I had a clean light stanchions, and I had a director, and sometimes it was film and scammer something as it wasn't. And we saw every important buyer in New York, the more important they were, the longer we

made them wait, and we sold 40,000 per shoes in two and a half days. There was a phone booth on the corner that was my line of connection to the source, the factories, and I was changing the orders from high heels to low heels to red to blue, and delivered these shoes in six weeks. And I tell that story still because it speaks to the importance of resource for this and problem solving of the best solution is rarely the most creative. Rarely the most expensive, it's almost always the most creative.

And the company, by the way, went public 10 years later, traded in the New York Stock Exchange, it's in which KCP, chemical production. And we stayed public for 20 years, we just recently went private. I love that, very. It's, I mean, what you just said there, the amount of people that only see the blocks.

I mean, the fact that you call the mayor up in the first place, and the mayor actually picked up. No. No. Somebody in his office. And but and they but they knew once there by the way is not can I park the truck there? Which would have been no question is how can I park the truck. Yes. Underwood scenario that in that in that in that question was the answer I needed. So and I figured out what I needed to be in order to be able to do what I hoped to accomplish.

And if he had said no, if that was, we were probably found to another path. No, definitely. And that's what I love that today I feel there's especially for everyone watching and I hear this so often that there's just, oh, this doesn't work. Or I tried this, but that path had a block. Or we went down this road and then it got cut off. And I feel like a lot of us are constantly finding excuses or finding blocks more often than what you just said. It was just about asking the right question.

Right, that's the right question to the right person in the right way. And call a restaurant. Do you have a capability to know? But under what scenario could you have? So, do you still practice that today? Do you have to still practice that as that energy state? Do you do that in the ordinary course?

Okay. But I guess there are inherent obstacles in everything we do. So the question is, how do we get from here to where we need to in the most efficient and productive way? And an appropriate way, by the way, I don't seek to do anything that's inappropriate. Nor was what I did that day inappropriate.

But although I do note that today the mayor's office is much more careful. Because I've told the story so many times. But based upon the rules as they existed, I wasn't inappropriate. In fact, that story never got, that movie never got told, unfortunately, but in this world of content creation. But do you have any of the, well, some of the projects is on our company website. Yes.

Also, I think, on our company's Instagram, some of the original trailer footage. That's brilliant. If anyone listening right now watching, there's not getting inspired by that, to figure out a way to their goal, you know, I don't know what will, that's, there's so many elements in there

where you had to just make it work for a different person. The fact that you're ordering, you know, like you said, now we have technologies, now we have social media, you were standing next to a paper and to make your orders.

Right. Like that. A lot of quarters. Yeah, exactly, yes fund to make your orders. Right. Like a lot of quarters. Yeah, exactly. Yes, that's on top. Exactly. Just keep going then. I just feel like that resourcefulness is something that's so useful today as a skill. And we have more resources to be resourceful with. Right.

But it's the mindset. It's such a, it's a totally different world today. And the obstacles, the objectives, the challenges are just different. One of the challenges today. You know, I mean, you speak to people in my business today and they say, everybody, everywhere, is competitors, too hard. And because everybody who offers product, product is available to everybody everywhere. There's literally an infinite amount of alternatives because by the time you get heavily through that list, this twice as many that have since been created. So, but I argue make the case that there's also twice as many infinite amount of opportunities as a result.

So you can look at the obstacles, you can look at from another context. And everybody who makes shoes or fashion everywhere is a competitor, but everybody who consumes fashion for every where is a customer. Absolutely. So, you know, it's a different time, but we just changed and kind of refocus the lens through which we see it. And it's something that we do every day.

How do we make an impact in the world? How do we make a meaningful impact in people's lives? And how do we make what we do worthwhile and purposeful? And it's not, it's a question I asked 30 years ago, 30 plus years ago, but it's a question I still asked today to answer is different. And the mechanism to realize it is different still, but the questions aren't different.

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and put it even on your grits if you don't stop him. Listen to the art spot on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or him, listen to the R-Spot on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Definitely, and that leads us on nicely because in 1985, when you launched the AIDS campaign, you say that shifted the brand forever. It was such a huge moment for the brand. What were your answers to that question 30 years ago? Yeah, because, well, you need to create the context

what was happening in 1985. So I'd been a business now a couple of years and my goal was always to figure out how to speak to people about what was not just on the body, but was on the mind, and knowing that I'd have a much more meaningful connection relationship, and much more sustainable than any heo-height or any hemalength. I would periodically reflect on what we were all consumed with. At that point, there was this pervasive consciousness

that we hadn't seen since the 60s. And it was about hunger. And it was to large degree in Ethiopia. And there were these initiatives that were happening constantly. It was we are the world, with Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones, and it was Live Aid, and it was World Aid, and it was Hands Across America. And everybody wanted to be part of something bigger than they were, something I hadn't

really experienced in my somewhat adult life. And so, but it was odd because nobody was talking about what was really this glooming dark cloud called HIV-H, because actually what's in the code AIDS yet was just HIV, because if you did, you, because, well, a, the stigma attached to people who had HIV was so severe and so significant. And if you addressed it publicly, you were perceived to be at risk. And that meant you were either an intravenous drug user, your maybe Haitian or your gay. And the stigma against each of those groups was overwhelming. So, I saw this rare opportunity to talk about something that was really important that nobody was talking about.

And I only had a little bit of money at the time. We were a very small company. So we did a campaign, I reached out to Annie Leibowitz, who was, and then she still is an important social photographer, and Annie agreed to help me. I don't think she knew I was at the time, and she loved the message and she loved the idea. And we reached out to all these big models in the industry, and they all wanted to do it.

So we did a campaign that spoke about the fact that nobody was speaking about this ominous dark cloud, called AIDS, HIV AIDS. And it changed the man changed the brand, and the company in a very profound way. And you know, I had what I was doing was fulfilling, but it wasn't meaningful. And I had a hard time asking my associates to put in the hours and do what I needed them to do to be successful, because I don't believe

anybody could really be successful doing anything today, nine to five. I'm between your physical engagement, your emotional involvement, your resources, you need to bring the bear at anything you want to do requires, you know, making a commitment. So I needed to make what I was doing more important than it was in the ordinary course. And this did it.

It just made it important. And we stood on this path and I was asked to do, we did this campaign and I did it in conjunction with Amphar, who is the one of the only age research organizations at the time. So we did it bringing shiny light on their work and I believe that a cure phrase would only come from research and that's what the effort did. And then a year or so later, a year and a half later, they asked me to join the board and I did and then they asked me to become chairman in 2004, and I did. And in the 14 years from that point forward, and in the many years throughout, I, I, I, I'm far ahead of very profound impact on millions of people's lives.

And millions of people were alive, I believe, not because of Amphorlo, but because of a lot of Amphor's important work. And I continued to do personal efforts to engage a global HIV community. And in 2004, at the same time, I maintained the global campaign that we all have AIDS. If we don't have it mentally, we have it socially, or spiritually, and we're infected, if we're not infected, regardless we're infected, if we're not infected, we're affected. And I got a different photographer at the time,

Mark Celiger, and he and I, Fudasat Africa, we photographed Nelson Mandela, and Desmond Tutu, and Zacchaeac, and we photographed Dr. Solomon in India and Elizabeth Thau and Elton John and Los Angeles. So bringing together of the community had not been done before. And that was level of engagement for film

that I had never experienced. But again, still, it was then set in this standard from which I now had to go further and you know, I've continued to do that and it continues to be, make everything more meaningful. It's beautiful hearing about it for someone like me in my generation looking back because often we think that all of these challenges are new because we're experiencing them for the first time. And so when you're hearing it back from someone who's a changemaker who's actually been working on meaningful things for such a long period of time, two questions come to mind. The first one is I feel like from a personal level

everyone has to get to that point in life where they may be doing something that's fulfilling like you said, but it's not deeply meaningful. I feel like everyone has to or will get to that stage in their life where they have to ask that question. I also don't know at the end those two expressions are mutually exclusive. I don't know if anything could be fulfilling but it isn't at some level meaningful. Sure. Just to you, to your people, you, in your life, people that inspire you or are inspired by what you do. So I think we're always searching for that.

And that's a moving target. I don't think it doesn't change. I think every day we come to work and we you know we look at it and people you know people at the time I'll go back a little bit to when I started the business and they said to me were you nervous because you put a lot of stake you know you left where you were and you really made it hard to have a go back and you made a commitment to do this without really knowing with you know where this was going to take you.

And was it hard, were you nervous? And I said, you know what? I never really thought about that scenario. I never thought about it in that regard, about failing. And I wanted to say, but I knew somehow I'd make it work. But what I didn't explain to people because I didn't know how to was, I never, that the it was very undefined and continues to be. So because the factors and influence you continue to change every day.

So, and I knew I'd figure out how to stay relevant and how to have a reason to exist. And that the need to do that, you know, is still exist today 35 years later. And that was my second question. That seeing as you were asking these questions 30 years ago, you were thinking about this stuff. 30 years ago, do you think that we've gotten closer to a more evolved world where people are asking these questions more often. Or are we going backwards?

Are we still in the same place? Or is it always the same cycle? There's a beautiful quote by Mark Twain, where he says, history doesn't repeat itself, but it always rhymes. And so I wonder, how does that fit into this? Where does that thought process fit into this? So, I think that we need to learn,

we need to know what the past, so that we know how to contextualize the present and the future. So, and in fashion, I was always obsessed with the universal alternatives. And not so that I knew what to make, but often so I knew what not to make. And nobody needs what's there.

So, but, absolute of knowing with the current existing alternatives are, you don't know how to create a creative, innovative alternative. So, you need to know the history, you need to know the history, you need to know the present and I love Mark Twain's. Yeah, so we too. Right, so you know I think it's, you know we reflect that often. At the time when I started doing my work with Amphari, there wasn't this collective, I forget what they call it at the time, a corporate

social responsibility. I mean, this wasn't, it's just with something that seemed right to do, there wasn't a name for it, and there wasn't a classification, characterization of it per se. Maybe it was philanthropy at some level. But, and then interestingly, I learned over the years, and partially from my daughter, my middle-dora Amanda, who was obsessed with not that we're doing philanthropy, because philanthropy is something that,

or community engagement is something that you should do and everybody did. But it became about not just what you did, but how you did it and the impact that you made. And the transparency within which you communicated that. And so the process of our community outreach has changed profoundly over the years

and how we engage with communities and how we do it in a way that ensures results with absolute transparency and accountability is really important today. Which in the past wasn't so. So, I don't know if that. Yeah, it does. Absolutely. It does answer my question.

One of the things I love about you Kenneth, from our couple of meetings that we've had, is that you're extremely humble. In a positive way, you're confident but you're humble in the sense that you always consider yourself a learner, you always consider you're growing. And you feel that this is beautiful quote that I picked out of yours, actually. So now I get to quote you,

as well as quote Mark Twain in the same podcast. So we have, I've wanted, here we go, it's, if you stand on what you've accomplished, it gets in the way of what you still need to do. And when I read that, it reminded me of Steve Jobs. And I was sharing with you earlier that Steve Jobs, when he came back to Apple, he saw that in the entrance they had this Apple museum and he asked for it to be destroyed because he didn't want to live and work for a company that was still living and operating in the past. How do you practically apply that mindset every day at work and how do you get the people that you work with to apply that mindset as well? Because actually

majority of us are quite happy to just celebrate the past and live on the glories and the success of the past on nostalgia. We always think about the good old days. It's part of our human psychology. How have you shifted that? How do you get other people to shift as well? So, I didn't know that sort of as Steve Jobs, but one of my biggest regrets, but maybe it's a conscious process, so it shouldn't be, is that I don't have any archive of my past products over the 30 years. And people have always said, asked me that. Wow. And I never saved it because I always felt maybe because we need to stay focused on going

forward. And at these various milestones in my career, people have encouraged me to write books and tell these stories. And I've resisted it. And I've still never really told the whole story. I've told it anecdotally in a book called Foot Notes 15 years ago, and then, you know, really in a book called, A Can of Cold Productions, I mean, but it was episodic and it wasn't really about,

it wasn't the story. Because I believe that if we allow ourselves to, it's like driving a car, if you're going to look in the rearview mirror, you're going to miss that next bump in the road. So if you don't stay focused on where we have to go, you significantly encumber your likelihood of getting there. And I do believe that what we've done over these years is we've built a great foundation from which to do what we first now need to do. And you can't stay idle in the business, which is why it's a great business, a fashion

business, but it's also why it's so difficult. And I think it's an indulgence that I've avoided, you know, reflecting too much on the past. But it is true. I do think we need to stay focused on the future. And I don't want to celebrate the past anymore except to the degree that now this is what defines our platform. And I say to people that there is a literally an infinite amount of alternatives today to what we bring to market. Nobody needs what we sell, which is very humbling.

There's not an American that needs another pair of shoes. Even most people without means have shoes today and maybe not the shoes they want and maybe not. But in the condition that they should have. But as I've said, if we closed our stores tomorrow at noon, it's hardly in America, we'd go barefoot for 14 years. So we need to make them think they wanted, go ahead, they thought it didn't think it again. But at the end of the day, we can't salute ourselves.

And we need to be realistic and understand that we create something that people need to want they don't need but if we attach it to something that that connects with a meaningful way then what we do becomes more meaningful but I didn't answer your question I think that's okay I love the I love the tangent you went on it was it was a great tangent and that's that comes to back to your whole principle of, it's not just what people stand in, it's what they stand for.

And that reminds me, everything you do just echoes in timelessness for me. And that's what I love. Like it literally echoes because there's a beautiful statement by Martin Luther King around, someone who stands for nothing will fall for anything. And then there's another beautiful statement that says someone who has nothing to die for

has nothing to live for. And then when I hear your statement around people who have, it's not just what they stand in, it's what they stand for. And I truly agree with you. I believe with you that fashion without meaning or clothes without meaning don't make us happy. They don't stand for anything beyond.

And actually that's where we become consumers, as opposed to conscious creators or expressives. Right, I know where it's going. Oh, you're going, tell me. I just, you just promptly remember. Good, so people have been finit choices today. I believe after all these years, I've earned the right only to be considered. And every day I have to earn the right to be chosen.

And I can't become complacent and relaxed and rest on what we've done in the past because I need to be relevant, a competitive and relevant alternative today and then even more so tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that old cliche of curiosity killed the cat needs to change the complacency killed the cat because curiosity should be encouraged. Curacity should be the future. That's how we explore. It's complacency that actually makes you fall back and fall behind and lose. Right? Right. Yeah. Very great. But it's not, I mean, you, you, you, you,

you need to, every day contextualize what you're doing. And because it's moving so fast. And today, in my world, everything is global. Everything is interconnected. You know, the notion of building a physical wall, separating two countries. So silly to me, because at the end of the day, we are so connected everywhere today. And virtually and electronically. And we have the ability to speak to and inspire and move people wherever they are all the

time. And I think today everybody is in the media business. Yes, we're only talking about that briefly before. And we don't need the media to help amplify and tell our stories because we can all find audiences. And there are social platforms today we can connect with audiences and effortlessly. And we all have the ability to amplify ours

in each other's stories. And we can align and build an even bigger platform and people can get together and we can retweet and repost and there's no end to how far we can effectively proceed in that regard. Yeah, and I love that about you. And anyone who's listening or watching right now, we can effectively proceed in that regard. Yeah. And I love that about you. And anyone who's listening or watching right now, you should definitely follow Kenneth on Instagram.

Because I find that you are extremely witty. It's extremely relevant. It's beautiful to watch because I find so many executive CEOs, founders don't necessarily manage their own accounts. And there's like a million layers between the individual and then what actually gets posted. Whereas with you, it's very close. It's very authentic.

It's stuff you're thinking about. It's things that are fresh off your mind. And I found that refreshing when we met because I know that as someone who's extremely busy involved in so many different things for you to even find time to post on Instagram. But you do. And it's meaningful and it's with you. It's not just putting out a corporate stamp.

And that's what I love. You've been able to differentiate the man and the brand, as you said. Yeah, and that's partially how I was able to do it because we've gone back and forth. And so the brand tells the business story, and I tell my story, and I don't take what I do seriously. I take the world seriously, but I don't take

what I do seriously. And- What do you mean by that? Well, I think that nobody needs what I sell. Right. So, and I don't present it in a way that's any bigger than that. I have to make you want it and want it again, I know that and I do think it makes us feel great about ourselves and I do think that wardrobe being one is an extraordinary privilege

and I don't want this to be misinterpreted because I think when we wake up in the morning we have a queen's what has queen slate we have a the ability to represent ourselves to the world every day on our own terms unedited, because most of the people you encounter in a given day don't get to know any more about you than how you present yourself. And so you can send a very powerful message to the world independently, individually, every day. And to be part of that is an extraordinary privilege. If I can be part of that

expression, that self-expression that you choose to make. And I don't take that seriously, but at the end of the day, you wake up in the morning, it's not usually the first thing on your mind, especially if someone in in your world isn't well or if you're hungry. And so I need to somehow keep it in context. So, you know, as I often said, I can't change the world alone, but I can be an accessory. I love that. And hopefully I'm enabled to do that and empowered to do that. Yeah. In your spirit of always being a learner, you told me a beautiful story about how you've been learning even from your daughter. And I wanted to just share that with context of just how you've recognized this ability to learn from everything and everyone around you.

When we met, you, not only mentor, but you're willing to learn from those that you mentor. Like there's this beautiful reciprocal exchange in your life that exists. And the spirit, the energy you've built around yourself, of always learning from everything around you. Yeah, I think I love the access we're all provided through social media and just in the likes to be enlightened and inspired by so much from so many. The story that I was telling you before was when the one I was trying to write this book, I guess I think it was the first one that was footnotes.

My daughter Katie was eight at the time, so I could probably figure out when this was. But I would come home from work and I'd have to edit these work, because I was in a deadline. And she'd asked if I could help her with her homework and I'd say, Katie, I need just a few more, I need a half an hour, I have to work on this project and then I'll be there. I promise.

And then she'd ask me this question. I remember vividly and it was, who gives you the work? Which I found interesting because she's in school and in school you don't have work with us. So it gives you the work. And then she says to me and I say, why give it to myself? Because I need to do it and then she says,

why aren't you the boss? And it says, I am and that's why I give it to myself because if I don't, no one's gonna do it. So I'm thinking to myself, I just, you know, it's an opportunity to share an important lesson with my daughter. And then the next day, the same time, right after dinner, Katie says to me, so can you help me with this other project? Then I say, well, I can, but just like yesterday, I need a little bit of time.

And then I will be there, I promise. And then so she, this time she changed the question, she says, aren't you the boss? And I'm saying, well, I just answered this question. And then she said, and I said, yes, but I have to do it. And then she says, well, who gives you the work? And this went on for three or four days. And then I was, and it was the same questions each time. And I saw this spiritual advisor of mine shortly after that.

And he says to me, how is Katie? And I said, you know, it's funny because we went through this process. And she asked me to help her. And I was working as something I had to get done. And she says, aren't you the boss? And who gives you the work? And then after several days, she kept asking the same questions and I said to him, it's amazing, she just doesn't get it.

And he said to me, or you don't. She spent a week trying to teach you a lesson and you clearly still didn't learn it. And the lesson is that we make these choices and I was choosing to prioritize them over her. And it wasn't, and I had the ability to change that and I was choosing not to. But we are empowered to do most of what we do is we are empowered to change it, we're

empowered to affect it and we're very comfortable sometimes attributing that to other forces. Absolutely. Always removing our own accountability somehow. And thank you for sharing that. I know it's definitely an open and vulnerable share, but it's so important for us to recognize that. That we are accountable. definitely an open and vulnerable share, but it's so important for us to recognize that, that we are accountable, we are responsible, especially those of us who have created lives,

where you are working for yourself, and I find myself in that trap all the time, that I love what I do, I'm blessed to do it, I feel very fortunate to do it. That means I do it all the time, because you feel so fortunate and blessed to be able to have that privilege. And then you do it in a way, you know, you're beautiful wife works with you and it's part

of what you do at home, it's part of what you do, your career, it's your motion invested in it and you're professionally committed to it. And which is why you're so inspiring to so many of us, because you offer us so much in that process. You're very kind. Now, that's beautiful. And I want to ask you, what have you done as a... Has there been a Kenneth called Daily Ritual, a daily aspect of your life that has been there throughout,

or is there a new one? Does it change every few months or years? Has there been something that you've done, asked yourself, practiced on a regular basis, even if it's not daily, weekly, that you feel has been a cornerstone for your success, both internally and externally. When I sit with you, I feel I'm with someone who's both internally and externally successful. However, you define that word, but someone who's accomplished on both levels. So what has been, has there been a cornerstone practice? That's always been there.

You know, I don't know how to answer that question. What I've often said to people is that the best part of what I do is that over all those many years, there's been no two days I've done the same thing. Because I'm touching so many aspects of the business, and I'm touching the customer in so many different ways. I've often said that I need to put myself in the customer shoes and the hope that they'll put themselves in mine, when I want to put them.

But I don't want to, but I'm not, and I don't have a ritual. I don't, and probably I should, and most successful people I know have to. But I do have a sense of, I do have visualized where I want to be and what is the best way to get there. And an example that I've often been using these days is if we all agree that we wanna be in California by Sunday, then let's also know we have to be in St. Louis by Wednesday and Denver by Thursday. Yes. Not Chicago, not Florida and not Texas.

So, and I always kinda check myself, am I on the path? It kind of takes me somewhat in the direction I want to go. I love that, and I think you do. I think you have them whether they're conscious or subconscious, your ability to question your comfort would change, like to even say that you don't do the same thing every day. Most people think that they aspire for that, but most people don't really want that, because that's not easy, be able to deal with new situations, new scenarios and a daily basis.

It worked, I say to my associates often, we're going to do what we're going to do on Monday just because it's what we did last Monday. Because next Monday is a different world than it was last Monday. And just make sure you're taking up pulse and we're taking that to consideration. And if it is the same, then so be it. But. Yeah. OK. Is there anything we haven't covered?

Anything in your mind that you wanted to share? Maybe. I don't know if you wanted to talk about UN and Sundance. So you're in your involvement more specifically. So I accepted a UN appointment about a year ago because they had just put forth a declaration to end AIDS by 2030. But I did it conditionally and that is that they agree

that to aid to accept cure as a component because if we don't have a cure by 2020 or close to that, you're not gonna end AIDS by 2030. And that was the kind of the Amphur agenda. So I was trying to marry my agendas. So I could then accept that generous gesture that was put forth. And so then how do we bring other resources?

And how do we get the community aligned on, and with the clear sense of deliverables and focus on, on very real precise outcomes and how do we articulate what St. Louis looks like and how do we know when we're in LA. But so I accepted that and that's, and so, and I tried to marry that to my professional agenda. And I'm on my way to Mexico soon and for business because we're launching the brand and I'm going to wear my UN hat for two days. And then there's also on the Board of Sundance, which is an extraordinary initiative that I accepted. And then I totally enjoy, about 10, 15 years ago.

So, and that's all about effective, independent storytelling. And that's what Sundance does, started by Robert Ritford. So, and I, you know, it has motivated and inspired me in many ways because, you know, that today the world is about effective storytelling, independent storytelling, and how do we do it with the means we have, the resources we have to work with. And so, I, I, I marry that as well to what I do.

And there was one initiative, actually, I wanted to tell you if I may. Yeah, please. Yeah, of course. There was another, so we launched AMFAR. We launched the AIDS campaign in 85. I joined the board of 87. About a year or two later, I had a business dilemma,

that there was, we needed to be able to sell shoes in our stores without selling them off price. And we came up with this great strategy, which this great plan. And that was to do a campaign to encourage people to get people to discount off of the shoes based upon them doing something socially important and meaningful. And I looked around and there was a unsettling amount of homelessness that was overwhelming New York City at about that time.

And first of all, people think homelessness is embedded in our economy and in our infrastructure. It's not. Homelessness to a very large degree didn't exist in this country until the Reagan Bush years when the social safety net was withdrawn. And but now you have this population that was growing and it was overwhelming many of us in these urban cities, centers. So politicians didn't want to address them

because they didn't vote usually. And businesses didn't address them because they didn't consume. So we did a campaign which said, bring in a pair of shoes you don't wear for someone that will, who we picture for a homeless person. And we'll give you 20% discount on a new pair. So we've said now to people,

we motivated them to do what was in their heart, they would feel good about doing, at a time when they were not ordinarily do it, and it was the month of February, when our stores now were, had all summer product, and it was still 10 degrees outside, because the weather hadn't changed,

even though we had changed our inventories. So, and we started what became known as a shoe drive. And later on they were coat drives and they were clothing drives. None of that had existed at the time. And over the years we caught several million per shoes. And then we find populations. My wife was running a homeless organization in New York, and she kind of always kind of encouraged and inspired me. It still does. Called Help USA, which was originally founded by New York's governor and my brother, while Andrew Cuomo.

So we would collect these shoes. We'd give them to help residents, and then we'd find other residents, other individuals that could benefit from the product from these shoes. and then we find other residents, other individuals that could benefit from the product, from these shoes. And then it became over time, it was from a couple of days in February to the entire, to a week or then two weeks,

and it wasn't just New York, it was all of us stores around the country, and it wasn't just shoes and it was clothes and accessories. So we collected several million per shoes over a period of time, then all of a sudden Haiti earthquake comes and everybody is emotionally overcome and destroyed and agonized. How can people so close to us be so devastated? And how in fact, we come realize, have they been so devastated even

before the earthquake, living in such poverty and be so undeserved and in such need? So we changed the initiative immediately to a campaign to correct shoes and also funds for people affected by the earthquake and Haiti. We ended up raising maybe a hundred and something thousand dollars which is a lot but not in that world and I mean you're talking about a couple million people and we then I took a bunch of associates and we went to Haiti. We figured out how can we somehow make as meaningful, meaningful impact as we can with the limited resources that were available to us to do it. And then we ended up needing to take a couple of trips because we couldn't figure it out.

And eventually we invested in a health care center with, or an called St. Luke's in CD Soway, which is the most overwhelmed and underserved and poorest population arguably in the Northern Hemisphere. And to this day it exists, and to this day we, every year we raise funds to bring medical equipment or other things to that, not facility. And this other dimension to what we do, it's we solve the business problem. But in a way, we created an opportunity to engage in a community in such a meaningful way.

And associates come with us, we didn't go this past year, but we have, we've gone every other year. And it's, I find that maybe the greatest gift I've had after 35 years is I've been able to use, I've been able to do what I love as a platform for which to do something that is at so much for meaning to what I love. And we, those opportunities continue to grow, not, and get bigger and more meaningful now, less so.

That's why I love your commitment to service and your commitment to impact. It's absolutely incredible. I've got my five quick five questions with you to finish off with. So here we go. These are quick answers. So you can give me one word, one line, one sentence.

If you could walk a mile in anyone's shoes, who would it be? Oh man, so many people have inspired me along the way, but I will say Nelson Mandela. Okay. Amazing. Your favorite guest that you could have over for dinner. I know there's a lot of people that you probably already had over here. And they're assuming that Nelson is busy? Yes.

Yes, they're assuming Nelson is busy. I may be more in with the King. Okay, amazing. The biggest lesson you've learned in the last 35 years. That what I do is not who I am. That's a little more. Yeah, very important answer than the first two. I was thinking that is something I often try to share with people because I think we often are blindsided by what we do in the bigger context. it's not. Favorite city in the world?

New York. And your best piece of advice you've ever been given? Or what is the impact you want to make and apply it to everything you can, as well as you can. I love it. Thank you so much, Kenneth. I'm so grateful that you made the time to be here. Jay, thank you. Thank you for what you do.

I'm so happy that you now have this new platform for which to do it. Yeah. And I love your story, and it inspires me. And I hope you can continue to inspire so many more people. Thank you so much and I hope that we continue to be friends and I hope that I can continue to learn from you and be mentored by you. I feel your message is just, I can relate to so much of it.

And I hope that I can follow in your footsteps in my own small way. I'm very special for me. Thank you so much. Amazing. And this was something that Kenneth sent to me when he knew we were back to share this episode. He's been working on something really meaningful

and really impactful, and he wanted you all to hear it. Here goes. So here I am today. I sit and I reflect back on that 30 plus year journey of advocating on behalf of people living with HIV and working on behalf of those who have significantly severely suffered from the of AIDS. And knowing, as I said, and as you know, Jay, that more people arguably died of the stigma from HIV and from the virus itself. It's very unsettling, clearly. And today, we hear so many people talk about this pervasive crisis that is chronic and that is overwhelming. And in numbers and statistics that are so much greater, even still than HIV, and that's about mental health,

about our collective mental health, our individual circumstances. And this is something you've spoken about a lot, clearly, more than I have. And the statistics aren't one in 200 they're one in four and I even make the case that it's so personal in all our lives that everybody is living arguably with mental health crises and related crises and if it isn't affecting them individually it's affecting somebody that they love somebody in their family or somebody in their community, if not somebody in their workplace. But we are all living with mental health crises, mental health issues. So, and part of that is because stigma from what I've been told and what I hear now all the time is as bad in that world, in this world, then it was in HIV

20 years ago, and way more pervasive. So I naively thought to myself upon working with a bunch of these very established organizations that so effectively and such a dedicated manner commits so many extraordinary resources to this fight and to support these individuals who are living with this. So, I sit and I reflect back on that 30 plus year journey of advocating on behalf of and working in support of all those people who have either died from the David Stating virus, the HIV virus and or end of living today still with AIDS.

So I reflect back, Jay, at this 30 plus year commitment that I've made on behalf of people living with HIV-AIDS, and advocating on behalf of Endor in support of those and living with Endor who have died from, and the commitment to the advocacy and also to research and to finding ultimately a cure. Knowing that is the only thing that is going to solve this problem and help all those people still living with the virus. But and the most unsettling part of it remains that so many of these people I strongly believe and I've said this before, not have died from the stigma of AIDS, even more so angry than the virus itself. And I struggle with that. And then I look around and I hear from all these people that as bad as HIV, it was and

still is there are there are so many more people today that are living with mental health issues. And instead not one in 20 but one in four. And I argue we make the case that it's not really one in four. It's actually everybody because if it isn't at the individual It's somebody that in his family from what I hear and if not in their family somebody in our community and or in the workplace But we are all living with mental health issues and So it's not one in force four and four is what often what I'd say and the stigma is so overwhelming and so devastating and people say it's as bad as it was with HIV 20 plus years ago.

So then I naturally say to myself in my ambitious naive way, well then why don't we see if we can work with some of these extraordinary organizations who I've had the privilege to meet along the way in this process and see if we rebrand mental gives people the ability to Define the world and their terms and not allow the world to define them and in a way that's not overwhelming, but in fact empowering Is there a way to do that? And so we sit at down

this road, work with the best biggest, most important organizations and GEOs today in the country and collaborate, cooperate, communicate. Everyone's on board. Everyone is absolutely dedicated. It's committed to addressing the pervasive stigma that is overwhelming so many people in our lives. So, and the notion of rebranding is very powerful. So, we come up with, and we're working on this, this new vocabulary, the plan is to launch it, and release it through social media platforms later on in the beginning of this next year, but the the first step needed to be the formation of this coalition of these organizations and hopefully bringing together

Most if not all of the important organizations across the country and at the end of the day create a hub a platform where And at the end of the day, create a hub, a platform where anybody anywhere marrying resources to needs can log on, identify their specific needs and relationship their specific geography and figure out how to bring resources to them and make it easy to navigate, easy to articulate and access. So these are critical resources and there are extraordinary needs as you, J. have spoken about so well so often. So this is a path that we've set out upon and we've now have just launched the mental health coalition, which is a gathering of all these committed, dedicated resources, organizations that are committed to see this through.

And I'm privileged to be able to work with them. And I've taken on this new challenge, which I commit will not allow it to consume my next 30 years, but it will consume an important part of what I have to give for a period of time, because it is a, because it's important, because that's everybody knows. So that's the Rotem on. Rotem excited to be on.

And we'll see where it takes us. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Getting better with money is a great goal for 2023. But how are you going to make it happen? Ordering a book that lingers on your nightstand isn't going to do the trick. Instead, check out our podcast How to Money. That's right, we're two best buds offering all the helpful personal finance information you need without putting you to sleep.

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