On Purpose with Jay Shetty - MALALA: The Story The World Hasn’t Heard Until Now

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Today, Jay sits down with Malala Yousafzai to uncover the woman behind the global symbol of courage and education. From the very start, Jay sets the tone with an intention rooted in empathy, to help people not just know Malala, but understand her. Together, they revisit her extraordinary journey, from growing up in Pakistan’s Swat Valley under Taliban rule to surviving an assassination attempt at fifteen. Malala shares what it was like to wake up in a hospital far from home, and how she slowly began to realize that the world had already decided who she was before she could decide for herself. As the conversation unfolds, Malala opens up about the emotional aftermath of her survival, the years spent trying to live up to the image of bravery the world created for her while quietly struggling with fear, trauma, and loneliness. She reflects on how therapy helped her begin to process the pain she had long suppressed, and how rediscovering humor, friendship, and love became essential parts of her healing. Malala also talks about her marriage, her insecurities after the attack, and the importance of learning to love herself before fully believing that someone else could. Her honesty reveals a side rarely seen, that even those who inspire millions still wrestle with doubt and self-acceptance. Malala and Jay explore what courage truly means, not as a public act of heroism, but as a quiet, daily choice to keep going. She reflects on her mission to ensure education for every girl, the ongoing fight for women’s rights in Afghanistan, and how real change begins with local voices and global solidarity. Through her words, Malala reminds us that strength and softness can coexist, that healing is never linear, and that every person has the power to turn pain into purpose. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Stay Brave When You’re Afraid How to Heal From Trauma With Time and Therapy How to Find Yourself Beyond What the World Expects How to Rebuild Confidence After Losing It How to Create Change Through Education How to Love Yourself After Feeling Unworthy How to Redefine Courage in Everyday Life How to Keep Hope Alive in Dark Times How to Be the Voice for Those Who Can’t Speak No matter what you’ve been through, your story isn’t over, it’s still being written every single day. Healing doesn’t happen all at once, and courage isn’t about never breaking down; it’s about finding the strength to rise again, even when you feel unsure. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 10:03 The Life Others Tried to Define for You 12:38 Winning the Nobel Peace Prize at 15 16:20 School as a Sanctuary for Children 21:00 When Education Becomes a Privilege 24:42 The Power of Having Someone Stand Up for You 25:45 Why Women Deserve Equal Opportunities to Thrive 27:52 Living Through the Violence of the Taliban 32:33 What Sparked the Activist Within 34:00 Choosing Courage Over Silence 37:25 Surviving the Taliban Attack 45:20 Fighting for Every Girl’s Right to Learn 48:45 When Trauma Returns Years Later 52:49 The Weight of Being a Symbol of Hope 55:45 Healing from Grief One Step at a Time 58:42 The Life-Changing Power of Therapy 01:03:36 Finding Real Friendship and Belonging 01:05:49 Becoming the Unexpected Relationship Guru 01:09:39 Learning to Love and Be Loved 01:20:50 Investing in the Future of Girls’ Education 01:23:39 Changing the Narrative for Equality 01:27:10 Empowering the Next Generation of Women 01:29:10 Thirteen Years After the Attack 01:31:50 The Heart of True Activism 01:34:30 Building Schools That Transform Lives 01:39:41 Malala on Final Five       01:49:45 Child Marriages Should Stop Episode Resources: Malala Yousafzai | Website Malala Yousafzai | Instagram Malala Yousafzai | Facebook Malala Yousafzai | TikTok Malala Yousafzai | YouTube Malala Yousafzai | XSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the psychology podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you. When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denials easier.

Complex problem solving takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the. iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was in a coma when so much was happening about my life, and my story was spreading around the world. I remember my last day of school in Pakistan. I was 15 years old. I was hoping for the next day to be a normal day.

And then something terrible happened. and I wake up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK and I find myself on a hospital bed recovering from injuries going through severe pains trying to figure out what had happened and you know I still had not even seen what was out there on the media about me the number one health and wellness podcast

Jay Shetty J Shetty the one the only Jay Shetty Malala welcome to on purpose. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so grateful because I've wanted you on the show for so many years. And I'm actually really, really glad that it didn't happen before this book because I don't think I would have really understood what you were going through, who you are, who you're trying to become. And I feel this book is almost like your reintroduction to the world.

And so I got to get a sense of the real you. But I'm so grateful. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you so much. It's truly an honor to be on your podcast. And I cannot agree more with you on this. Writing a book like this is like writing a journal. And you want to share that journal with people out there,

hoping that it could help somebody out there who might be in the same places you might be feeling lost, may not be able to find a way out. So I wrote this book because I once needed a book like this when I was going through difficult times. So my hope is that it helps people find their way. Yeah, it's interesting you say that because in one sense your journey is unrelatable because you've seen things that most people have not seen. And then at the same time when I was reading the book, I'd agree with you, there's so much relatability to it in how we're seen, how we're heard, how we're understood, how people project their beliefs and opinions

and expectations onto us. And so I wanted to start off by asking you that you opened the book with, I'll never know who I was supposed to be because the world decided who you were before you got to become. Talk to me about how that felt the first time you understood that. I was in a coma when so much was happening about my life and my story was spreading around the world. I remember my last day of school in Pakistan. I was 15 years old. I was hoping for the next day to be a normal day. And then something terrible happened.

And I wake up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK. And I find myself on a hospital bed recovering from injuries, going through severe pains, trying to figure out what had happened. And, you know, I still had not even seen what was out there on the media about me. You know, I was like, you know, what does this new life mean do I take on this new journey in a new place and how do I recover from the trauma that I have faced? I knew that the only way I can actually have some hope in life is by dedicating my life to girls' education. So I took on this journey to become a girls' education activist. I was defined as a brave, courageous activist. You know, when I learned more about how I was described in the world, I said,

okay, wow, maybe, okay, this is what it means when you survive a terrorist attack. This is how you're supposed to live your life. And there's not much you can do. cannot go back to the old life. You cannot expect a normal life because you are now invited to these big events and gatherings and you are receiving awards and you are getting titles. You have to live up to it now. So I said, okay, it means I cannot have a normal life. I cannot be that normal student. I cannot feel the same love or just have that normal life as a teenager, you know, as a young woman. So I sort of embraced it. You know, you sort of

internalize it and you embrace it, whatever people say about you, then you begin to live up to that. Yeah, I think it's so, and like I said, it's so interesting because what you experienced and we'll get to that is so different and distant from the experience. Yet when you say those words of, I felt like I had to live up to how people saw me. Yeah. I think that's a very human thing that that we all experience, except yours was on the world stage. Yeah. It's important to share that we begin to internalize it. I started saying that it's a sense of responsibility that I feel because I want myself

to live up to this idea of being a brave and courageous activist advocating for girls around the world. I cannot be scared. I cannot have fear and I need to stay committed to making a change happen. And at the same time, like, I'm 15 years old. I have to be studying at the same time. I have to learn so much and try to be a normal student. And then also maintain, like, writing a book and giving speeches and, you know,

like receiving a Nobel Peace Prize at age 17. I remember I was still in my school. And that morning, my team asked me if I wanted to stay back and, like, prepare a media statement just in case. And I said, are you guys crazy? Do you think a school student should be receiving a Nobel Peace Prize? So I went to my school. I was in my chemistry class. My school's deputy head teacher walked in and called me outside and informed me that I had won the Nobel Peace Prize. I was like shocked. I said, thank you to her. I gave short remarks to everybody in the school to just thank them and talk about the importance of education. Then I went back to like my

physics class and I completed my school actually. I said, I'm not going to do any interviews or anything. I'm going to finish my school. You know, that day I felt that so many like students sort of looked at me and I felt really noticed that day because in this new school, I was a very quiet person and I thought, you know, I thought like everybody just saw me as an activist and nobody really wanted to be friends with me. But the next day when everything was back to normal, I felt that most people turned their faces away. And it just went back to like that normal day where I just, I just wanted to have my, I wanted to have friends and it, and it, you know, wasn't there. Yeah. Do you feel like that made you disconnect and distant from your

friends and people around you? Like, how did it affect you? Yeah, I don't really, you know, blame the students at that school. It was an all-girl school. It was in a completely new country now, different language, different culture. A lot of the girls had already made friends. So I was a latecomer. And they had heard about me in the news. They had heard the story. And I think they were feeling awkward in how to approach me.

And at the same time, I was also so nervous in starting a conversation. And I actually missed my old life. I just wanted to be the girl I was in Pakistan. mischievous, exploring new things, adventurous, chatting with friend all the time and like copying or like mimicking people's accents and talking about like gossip and all of those things. And I just thought maybe like maybe that's that part of my life is gone. Yeah, I love the part where you say they made me into a mythical heroine. Sometimes the absurdity of it made me laugh. You said, growing up in Mingora, I was a troublemaker.

Even on my best day, I was not the reticent saint that everyone now claimed I was. I know. I was laughing when I read it, but then feeling sad because that has real consequences for you. But it almost made me laugh. And I was like, oh, wow, like Malala, like the Malala, sees herself as a mischievous, you know, funny person who's, you know, a troublemaker. Yeah. Like, tell me about that version of you. Like, take us back to that version of you.

In Pakistan, I was, you know, still exploring who I was as a person. And in school, I was very active. I wanted to participate in every competition. I was giving speeches and doing debates. And I was also, like, trying to sing. I don't know. Like, I'm like with a terrible voice. I was also doing that.

My friends and I still joke about it that, you know, we just love to be doing something all the time. Education is a privilege. We knew that it's not something that every girl has access to. I thought I was lucky that my father was so supportive of allowing me to be in school. So I valued and treasured every moment at school. And you know, here people complain about being in school and they can't wait for it to finish. It was the other way around for us.

We wanted to stay in school for as long as we could. because when girl's exposure is limited and when you live in a patriarchal society where you cannot really leave your home so you're supposed to stay inside the four walls of a house so school becomes that place of safety for you where you can explore things but at the same time like you are you are in a safe place

but you can explore the things that you love and enjoy so we loved our time in school and I just wish that I could have all of that in the UK as well, in this new school. And somehow it was very challenging to make it happen. I was trying, I was like participating in almost everything that I could. I was signing up for like a 200-meter race. And then I was trying to be part of the debating society because I wanted to make friends.

Not that I wanted to add more to my like personal statement or wanted to be an excellent student. Like truly, deeply, all I wanted was to get an opportunity where I could like, talk to friends. Back in Pakistan, when you were saying that you already had this gratitude to be an education, how did that develop at such a young age? Because I feel that's often what develops with perspective. How did you have it at such an early age to recognize the value of education?

What had you seen women go through or what had you seen that inspired you to want to value education? The scenario of a girl without an education was, not something that we had to imagine. We were actually seeing it right in front of our eyes. We had the stories of our aunts, of our mothers, of our cousins, of our siblings who, without an education, missed out on the opportunity to have a future that they chose. My own mother could not learn. It was very uncommon in the village for a girl to be even enrolled into school. So when she was admitted into a primary school and she was the only girl in that classroom,

she sold her books because she said there's no point no other girl is going to a school and she got some candies in return. She never saw a classroom after that. It was then years later when she finally was married to my dad and my dad has been very supportive of women's rights and girls' education, she started relearning again. So when I was seeing how women and gulls are asking for one thing and that is the right to learn, I knew that it was truly a privilege to be in school. But I think the moment when I realized that this was not something that girls can access so easily

and it can be taken away was when the Taliban took over. What was different about your father's experience that made him so aware of this? What was different about his upbringing or the way he saw the world? You know, it's really hard to answer because so my dad and his brother both received their education while their five sisters could not. And my dad took a different commitment that when he has a daughter, he will educate her while his brother did not do the same. So, you know, you could be in the exact same environment. And you can read and understand it very differently than the other person, and you can make different decisions. So for my dad, it was this simple dream where he wanted girls to have exactly the same rights as boys.

And he always questioned why his sisters could not be in school while he could be. And he knew that for things to change for women and girls, men have to change and do better. So he became a feminist father before he had even heard the word feminism and he usually says that don't ask me what I did but ask me what I did not do I did not clip her wings so he believes in the autonomy

in the power of women and girls he says like we don't need to do anything we just need to take a step back and give them space so my father was an amazing father I consider myself lucky, and I remind people that my story is not unique. So many other girls in my hometown wanted to speak out against the Taliban oppression for their right to education, but their brothers or their fathers stop them. The only thing that's different in my story is that my father did not stop me.

Wow. What a beautiful relationship you have and a gratitude that you have for him. And I couldn't agree with you more. there's it's amazing that even for a for a woman to gain access to education sadly that requires the permission of a man in that space yes and it's you know like it it is irritating you're like why it is that way but it is a reality if you live in a patriarchal society we have to acknowledge that men are in power they have influence so we have to be engaging them as well and it takes a lot of time to change things. Right now when I look at our community in Pakistan, the village that my parents are from, a lot of things are changing now. Because when a few fathers step up and

they redefine what it means to be a good father, other fathers follow their footsteps. And my father is spreading this message that true honor lies in standing up for women and girls when their rights are taken away. And you can be fulfilling your role as a father when you empower your daughters, when they have equal rights, when they fulfill their dreams, not that you marry them off. Like that's not true fatherhood. You give them the education so they choose their future for themselves. Absolutely. Well said. It's before. I look forward to meeting your dad one day too. You'd love him. Yeah, it's amazing. It's truly incredible. I can't imagine how, was it challenging for him as well to do that. And for the men in the other...

Very challenging. Like, I can't imagine the judgment and the kind of criticism. Yes. I mean, I remember one time I was supposed to speak at this press conference. And my male cousin was asked to help me get to the press conference. And I was wearing a headscarf, but I was not covering my face. So my cousin just was like, really, like, irritated by that. Because most women are expected to cover their faces when they're, are in public, especially when they like reach adulthood, but I was still like very little and

I just did not want to cover my face. And I remember that cousin just going to my dad and telling him that, you know, Malala should like cover her face and it's just, you know, such a shame to the family's name. And my dad told him to mind his own business and told him to like, just basically like, it's none of your business what she does. It's her choice, whatever she wants to wear. So in those moments, you know, you do reflect and wonder what if your dad had not spoken out for you, things would have been different. So it makes a huge difference when people become your allies and they stand up for you. Yeah. At that time, what were your dreams post-education? Like, what were your aspirations before you became the emblem and the symbol that you speak about? What were

you dreaming of? What was your hope to do with your education that you were so grateful to receive? I mean, I had many dreams. I was exploring everything. Initially, I just wanted to be a car mechanic. Then I said, okay, let's be a doctor because everybody was dreaming to be a doctor or engineer. But when the Taliban took over our hometown and they banned girls' education, they restricted women from movement outside their houses, and they were targeting and killing people if they dared to speak out. So at that time, I was questioning what our leaders were doing for us. So I said, said, okay, you know what, I'll become the prime minister and I will fix all the problems in the world. Of course, that dream of mine changed because I realized that, you know, if you look at the world politics, people in leadership positions are rather disappointing us by not addressing these injustices and these deep-rooted problems. So, of course, my dreams have changed throughout life, but at the time, I just wanted a different reality, a different future for us. I simply wanted girls to be able to go to school, to not be stopped, to not be threatened, to not be harmed, to not be killed, to learn and to follow their dreams.

I did not want people to like pick up their guns and target a girl simply because she wants to be in school and she wants to follow her dreams. But this is a reality like, you know, for women and girls to exist and to have equal opportunities or just to have a life in dignity as a human. they're threatened for that it's really hard to process but this is a reality like so many women have experienced or are still living through when the Taliban takes over your town what does that actually look like and what does that mean for people who have no idea what that actually looks like and what that means for your rights and what that means for general living I mean everything changed when the Taliban took over initially they were just giving religious sermons about you know the religion and then

quickly they started announcing these restrictions on women and girls that a woman cannot go to a market, she cannot do a job, they were threatening people who were artists, like painters or dancers or musicians, they said, you know, all of this form of art is also prohibited. And then they started like attacking people for it. They would announce somebody's name that, you know, this person dared to disobey our rules and and then they They were like, they would kill them. It was terrifying time. And then it affected, like, me directly, and it affected gul's directly when the Taliban

announced that no gul will be allowed to be in school. And I remembered the day when the ban was imposed. And I woke up and I just couldn't go to school anymore because the Taliban would be on the roads, on the streets, and, you know, you could not be seen with a, with, with, with a backpack or in your school uniform. And I remember the morning when my brothers would pack their school bags and go off while I had to stay behind. I think then like a few weeks later, some of our friends sort of came up with this idea

that why don't we just go in our home clothes and like wear a long, hefty scarf basically and like hide our bag and still like make it to school. so we also went to school secretly. But I was like, you know, why we should not be living in a world where girls have to hide that they're learning. It should be a right that every girl should be freely receiving. Where did the innovative idea of starting a blog come from to write about these things that you started to document and reference and stand up for?

Like where did that impetus come from for you to say, I'm actually going to write about these things. I'm actually going to document what's happening. You know, when these horrible things are happening and you are living under a terrorism, you just want somebody to know. It feels like the world is silent and nobody's looking towards you. So, you know, my father and I were finding opportunities where we can raise awareness, bring attention to what was happening. Because if you don't bring attention, then there's just lack of action as well. So I was speaking at the local press conferences.

We were doing peace walks. We spoke to the local media. And then these international platforms also reached out. So the BBC blog, you know, the BBC journalist approached my dad and said that they wanted a student to share about their life under the Taliban. So my dad actually asked another girl at the school. and she shared her blog for one day and then her father came the next day

and said he can't allow his daughter to share her blog. So when I heard that, I went to my dad and I said, Dad, I want to write my blog. I want to share my story. So my dad said, okay, like if you want to do it, I'll support you. So I started blogging about my life.

I talked about the last days of school and then what life was like under the Taliban education ban. I wanted the world to know what was happening. And I believe that change does not happen itself. Things will remain as they are if we are waiting for somebody else to come and save us. So I knew that I need to do my part as much as I can. And if that means telling my story at these conferences, at these local platforms to the international media, I will do that.

my father was an activist so I was just simply following his footsteps and we both became these activists doing the work together I mean that was from such an early age that was like 11 years old 11 years old 11 years old for you to start becoming an activist and that's what's so interesting about it as I read the book that you were an activist before the event and we'll talk about it but you were already an activist from such a young age it almost feels like you You were meant to be an activist, but there's so much lost when it becomes your entire identity rather than a part of your identity. Basically, yes, I became an activist at a young age, but this is not what I had chosen for myself.

It was the circumstances that made me an activist. I mean, which girl at 11 years old want to be an activist? But it's only when your school is closed. That's when you want to speak out, because you want to be back in school. school. That was my dream. I wanted girls in my hometown to be in school. I wanted myself to continue my education. We knew that a future without an education is dark. We had seen stories of women who lost their dreams because they were not being able to go to school. So simply it was a dream to have a future with equal opportunities. We can stand on our own two feet. We can

make a living for ourselves we can know about our rights we can protect our rights and so education was a pathway and if when you are living in a patriarchal society education becomes the only pathway yeah it's it's it's amazing because you say that the situation made you that way but obviously there were other people turning down the activism yet you felt like compelled to stand up for your fellow friends and fellow girls. I thought if I were to choose between two options, whether to live under the Taliban and be silent, or if it was to speak out,

and even if it mean a threat from the Taliban, but some change could happen. I would choose the latter because I wanted to see things change because I wanted simply a different field. future for ourselves. And it's really hard to tell, you know, if it was the voice of like one activist who changed something or not. Like so many people were involved, you know, there was a whole civil society who were advocating for bringing peace and for like, you know, like speaking against

the Taliban's restrictions. Then this military operation was done. We returned to, we became internally displaced. And then the summer of 2009, we returned to Swat Valley and we restarted our lives. So many schools were bombed. So many police stations and different like political officials buildings and so many things were like damaged. There were suicide attacks. People had lost their loved ones. So our area, you know, Swath Valley, which has been known as the as a place of tourism and it's known for its beauty and it's called like the Switzerland of the east became like a place of terrorism and it was now this like war-tone area. So we had to then rebuild it. And I knew that it was not just groups like the Taliban that we have to stand up against,

but we also have to talk about the mindset, the mentality that still exists. It does not have the, like a name, it does not necessarily is in the shape of an armed group. But the ideology is there. And we have to stand up against this ideology that do not see women as equal humans and that deny women and girls their rights. So my father and I continued our activism. But we just thought that the Taliban were gone. But somehow, you know, they were still there in the distance. And I, yeah, and then in 2012 at age 15, I was attacked by the Taliban.

Before that, were you worried that you'd be attacked? And did you fear being attacked when you were being an activist through the blog, these conferences speaking, were you scared that that could ever happen and that could be a possibility? Would that ever cross your mind? Yes, I had these thoughts many times what would happen if a Taliban gunman shows up

and tries to attack me. But I was more worried about my dad. I just had this little hope that maybe they would not attack a girl. They would not attack a 14 or 15 year old girl. So, yeah, you know, like, every night I would be worried about my father more than, more than me. I mean, even just listening to that, as I'm listening to your journey and your life, I'm like, there is so much courage and there is so much resilience for such a young person

to be able to even make sense of what is going on, let alone put themselves at the center of it. And the fact that you were concerned about your father in that moment. moment is so heartwarming and at the same time it's it's painstaking because it's so much pressure on such a young person to take on it's it's really incredible i'm dr scott barry coughman host of the psychology podcast here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. When you think about emotion regulation, like you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more

effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say like go you go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore to suppress seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way avoidance is easier ignoring is easier denial is easier drinking is easier yelling screaming is easy complex problem solving meditating you know takes effort listen to the psychology podcast on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts in your book, and I want to be very sensitive to do with this because of the way you write

about it. And when I was at this point in your book, it really, you know, it really took me a second to process it myself. And you talked about how you said, my life is so happy now and it's hard to look back. And I appreciate that I can't imagine, I can't even come close to imagine how hard it is to even reflect on being attacked by the Taliban. And in the manner that it happened, I believe you were on a bus. Yes, school bus. So walk me through what you can, sensitively and mindfully, in the best way for you to share that experience so people can understand what happened. Yeah, so we were on our school bus and, you know, I was just hoping I'd get to my home and prepare for my next day exams.

It would be a normal school day the next day. but on the way the Taliban gunmen stopped our school bus and one person was distracting the driver at the front and one guy showed at the back and asked who's Malala

and my face was uncovered he immediately started firing bullets one bullet immediately had hit me on the left side of my forehead and two bullets hit the friends who were sitting right next to me in their arms and in their hand I do not remember the exact incident and this has been my answer so far

I have like many like memories in my head but I sort of have told myself I do not remember it and I was then taken to a hospital and from one hospital to then another to then another and then eventually I was moved to the UK for my further treatment and you know I survived my friends survived. I started my school again in the UK. My friends also were moved to the UK and they started their school. So, you know, when I look back, I'm just really grateful that, you know, that we are all alive and we completed our education. But, like, everything changed that day.

You know, like we didn't make it to our homes. It was sort of a terrible, terrible. moment. All I remember is the last day of school and then waking up in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK and just realizing that I have a tube in my neck and I can't talk and I just look around and I see these nurses and doctors speaking in English. They look very different than like the brown people I had seen in Pakistan and I said, I feel like I'm in a different place and I sort of writing down to them to just tell me where I was. I said, you know, where am I, like, what happened to me?

And I repeatedly asked one question, where's my father? And then I would also add, who's going to pay for this? I don't have money. So I was worried about the medical bill. You know, I think Americans would understand where I was coming from. But I just wanted to get better and leave the hospital, go back to my old life. it took me a while to realize that, you know, my life had taken a turn. My parents joined me 10 days later at the hospital.

That was the first time I actually cried because a lot of people might think that when I woke up, I might have been under like so much pain and trauma. I might have been crying day and night. No, I just, like, I wasn't feeling normal. The pain is so intense that you just forget the normal emotions to process it. the normal reactions. So I couldn't even cry. And the first time I saw my family when they came back to the, when they came to the

UK, that was the first moment I cried. Because, you know, when you see your family, you connect with that normal life that you had before. So. And then before I even realized, you know, I had like a few more surgeries to go through. And then, you know, they said, okay, we want you to do. this like interview and we're supposed you know we want you to give this speech at the UN and we also have this book offer so it would be good if you can sign the book offer so and you have to

start school as well because we don't know when you can go back but you should start school in the UK so I joined a new school and this is this like new pathway that my life took to be honest, like, in my heart, I thought, this is all temporary. Like, this is all temporary for now because we are going to go back to Pakistan as soon as possible, and we will have a normal life. I just had no idea what was out there and what had happened. So, like, the first time when I learned about the response from, like, people around the world was when this person from the hospital brought a basket of cards and letters. And I'm, like, reading. cards and letters from people around the world like US and Japan and India and Canada and I'm

like wait a second like do people know about me and then I like looked at you know sort of news on Google and all of that I was like wait a second wow like this is this is truly an opportunity because people have heard my story but maybe I can bring attention to the stories of girls around the world. So I started Malala Fund as well at the time, an organization I have dedicated to girls' education. So before I knew it, like, you know, everything had switched now. Now I was sort of like the lead activist. My father was following my footsteps. And I was like helping my family as well. I was, you know, doing a book or speeches and things like that to help support my family. And I also had to be a student at the same time. I mean, you know, a lot of

Yeah, even hearing about it. I'm just like, I don't, I have no idea how you carried all of that. In the middle of all of this, you sort of forget that you are 15 and you're supposed to be a girl. I, you know, could not be silly. I could not do normal things. I was not binge watching some like sitcoms. I was not being able to make friends at school. I was too shy, too awkward.

And, you know, at lunchtime, I would just say, okay, you know, I hope I can, like, sit next to a friend. At least I can pretend like I'm sitting with somebody and I don't want to sit alone. So by the end of my school, I just had only made one best friend. And we're now, like, friends for life, but just one friend at school. And so that was all tough. Because when you're, like, so busy and you have all of this work going on,

it's, you know, it's hard. It's hard to be a normal student at school. I mean, with the attack, it sounds like the Taliban had come across your blog and aware of your speeches and your activism. Do you think they saw you as a threat because you were starting to gain momentum? Were you starting to have an impact and they noticed that? Or was it a way of displaying power? Like, how have you reconciled that? So the Taliban issued statements after the attack and they said many things when I survived that they did the right thing,

that I was somehow promoting an anti-Islamic ideology by simply asking for girls to be in school. And they said that they still see me as that disobedient person that needs to be punished for speaking out. So they have repeatedly created these fabricated narratives, these false narratives, calling what I do as un-Islamic or all of that. I mean, like, learning and education is a core part of Islam. I wish sometimes that they read what they're preaching. Like, if they read more about Islam, they will learn that the most important thing is actually seeking knowledge and learning.

And there's nothing in the religion that says a woman or a girl cannot learn. So how can they make up these new rules by themselves? It's just simply patriarchy and misogyny. You know, it's, they try to misuse... Use religion as a coverer. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I sometimes think about how much can I understand their ideology and then how can I convince them? I was of this view for a long time.

I thought maybe I could sit down with them and explain it to them and I can tell them that, you know, I have also read the Quran with translation. or like I know all the 99 names of Allah off by heart and I can sort of say like that they don't own the religion like there are all of us from many cultures and many backgrounds who connect with the faith that education is not a threat to women it's rather about their empowerment and that it is a core part of Islam but with time I realized that it's not about that

It's not about, you know, changing their ideologies, but it's talking about the deep causes of why these extreme ideologies emerge. And education is a pathway to challenge indoctrination, to encourage critical thinking among people, and to empower people. Like, education is the most powerful equalizer, and it can help us address so many of these social, economic injustices. And at the same time, like, you know, if the Taliban do not want to see women and girls empowered or in education, the best way for me to fight back is to help girls and women get education and equal opportunities. So I shifted my focus. I said, I'm going to focus on educating girls. The Taliban wanted to stop one girl from learning. Let's educate every girl in the world. It's so empowering listening to you. Do you say that and to see the ripple effects that it's having? And I wonder for you, as you were doing that, as you start that process from coming out of the coma, how long were you in a coma for? I think a week.

Wow. It was like induced coma. I can't imagine how worried your parents were when you didn't come home that night. I mean, it was a nightmare. I could never understand it, you know, or comprehended what they experienced. And it's one of those topics that sort of we have talked through when it was the book writing phase. You know, that's when you ask each other questions, like, I'm writing this chapter. Can you tell me what exactly happened?

But these conversations are really, really hard. And like mental health, therapy, these conversations did not come up at the time. I had like many doctors and nurses and I loved all of them. But the therapist at the hospital was my least favorite. And, you know, she would ask me, how are you feeling today? and I would roll my eyes that, oh, you know, what does she know? And like my father, my parents and I, we sort of said no to therapy. We said, it's okay, like, you know, I'm doing fine.

I have recovered. Like the surgeries are successful, I have recovered. And then it was like years later that I wished that I had received therapy. Because I thought I had recovered and everything was fine. I just thought I did not remember the attack, so I'm good, I can move on. And then seven years later, I had flashbacks that were triggered by a bong incident. Yeah, so, you know, this is now college time, and I was open to exploring many things in college. I, you know, my life had taken this shift.

I was becoming a different young person. So this was like a normal night and I was hanging out with some friends and they showed me a bong and I was like, what is this? And it's like, oh, you know, just give it a try, nothing harmful. So I take one puff, I cough. And on the second attempt, I inhale it and I felt it went all inside my body. and what was like supposed to be a fun night just took a sharp turn and immediately I froze I thought I was reliving the attack the flashbacks were in front of my eyes I thought I could see the gunman again I was shaking I was shivering I could hear my heartbeat I was you know I just

I just, I wanted to scream. It was like such a trauma that I was going through in that moment. And it like went on and on. I just wanted it to stop and I felt so helpless. Like time slowed down. I, you know, I thought maybe this is the afterlife. Maybe, maybe I'm dead. Maybe it has happened again.

Like maybe the gunmen are back. And I was like so scared that I could not even close my eyes and fall asleep. because I thought if I close my eyes that I will die and like even the next day I thought this will like sort of magically disappear

you just hope the next day to be normal and it wasn't the case and I realized that my life had changed I had many panic attacks after that and as much as I tried I just could it was not going away

wow it's incredible to think after seven years that everything could come back and I was actually going to ask before that there's this it's almost like you were being asked to be the symbol of courage and hope but that meant there was no space for grief

or anger or doubt like the grief of the lost life that you had before the grief of having to leave this place that you love that you thought you were coming back to it sounds like there wasn't any time or space to process any of that and had you had the therapy support that you would have wanted maybe it wouldn't have happened that way yeah talk to me about how when did you was that when you first started looking at emotions like grief and anger and what were the

emotions that came up after that seven year reminder i think now i see it as emotions of grief and frustration or but I think what's different in my experience was that when a moment like that broke me down and when small things

would make me scared or frightened all of a sudden this was not happening before because I was supposed to be this brave and courageous girl and now that I was afraid of small things or just nothing

terrified me I felt that I had failed in living up to the expectation of being brave and courageous and that was the hardest part to process I just could not take in more

and I was frustrated with myself because I thought like Malala remember you went through so much you processed it and you could take so much on your shoulder why is it breaking you down now when like you are safe and there's nothing to be worried about you like everything is okay and somehow you're like frightened now that is just like so hard to process at the time that you feel like so frustrated with yourself there's this anger frustration

and you feel like you are an imposter because you know you have you have failed to meet this definition of being brave so for months like like it went on, that even my friends started noticing that I was not doing okay. So one of my friends then suggested that I see a therapist. And that was the first time after seven or eight years that I started therapy. It's so fascinating, isn't it, that despite you having lived through so many difficult things, the mind is still able to guilt you into thinking, you should have figured this out. Like, how do you, like, it's so, like hearing you say that, you've got all the proof that you've gone through really hard things.

but the mind still finds a way to make you feel guilty and shameful and frustrated that you haven't figured out or an imposter as you just said like oh you're an imposter because you're helping people have hoped but you're still dealing with this and it's it's amazing how the mind can just get the better of us yeah regardless of what we've lived through yeah i mean we lived under terrorism uh we lived under the taliban and i lived those moments with so much courage and then like many years later I could not even watch the news and see the word killing attack it would just terrify me

so much that like you cannot hide it you cannot hide that it's breaking you apart you know the flashbacks these panic attacks so when my friend suggested that I see a therapist I remember my first session with the therapist where I told her everything about what was going on she told me that, you know, this is PTSD and anxiety.

She said it could be like many things, you might be stressed about your exams or your college life and so many things that you are thinking about right now in life. But this is anxiety and this is PTSD that you are experiencing, like many, many years later. You know, I was so annoyed, I was saying, like, so how can we fix this? I was hoping she would give me some medication. that she would fix the problem. But she made me realize that it takes time. It takes time to process.

She taught me different techniques, like breathing techniques, to help myself when I am facing anxiety. And she, you know, help me understand that there's only so much, like, you can take at a time. And maybe you could many years ago, but maybe right now that, you know, she calls it a window of tolerance. that your window of tolerance is maybe, you know, sort of shrinking a bit and then it expands a bit at times

that maybe you have just too much on your shoulders that you are overwhelmed. Or sometimes when we don't address it on time, it piles up. And then it gets so heavy that it breaks you down. So she said, like, you might be experienced in that as well. So, yeah, like the therapy really changed everything for me. Like if I had not received therapy,

I just do not even know if I would have been. in this position right now. What kept you committed to therapy when you're having such dark days because as you said it's not like you wake up tomorrow and you feel better, obviously and so what kept you

committed to the process when you weren't seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? So, you know, like I was finding a way to get out of it. Like you know, you feel like you are in the darkness or like you want to get out. You know that you're, you know that you You don't want to be in the place where you are right now.

And you're finding different ways to get out of it. I try to talk to my parents. My parents just could not understand. I was like sort of phrasing it in a way that it doesn't freak them out. But I was telling them that I have had some challenges with my mental health. And my mom was like, just don't be stressed. Like, you know, just be happy. And the same with my dad.

He's like, you know, we want to see you happy. And when you are sad, it makes us sad. But when you are happy, it makes us happy. And I was like, okay, like, I'll try. But like, this is not how it works. I usually debate with my dad that, you know, I have the right to be sad as well. That these are all emotions and we need to give ourselves time to process that. I found my friends very helpful.

So at college, all the amazing friends that I had made helped me in this time because they were there for me. They were not my therapists. But they made sure that I, like, did not. feel alone that, you know, they were sharing moments with me, taking me to dinner or taking me to an event or something, like taking me for a walk, simple things like that. And then a few times they did a sleepover with me because I, you know, I was struggling. I was struggling to fall asleep and every, you know, every day a friend would take a turn to do a sleepover. You know, the first time then I was able to like fall asleep. And yeah, it was like my friends who made me feel that

getting therapy, it's okay. Like, don't be disappointed with yourselves that somehow you have not lived up to the expectation of, you know, being this brave girl who knows an answer to everything and she has figured it out. Like, it's okay. So many people who you might think have got it all together are actually getting therapy. And when my friend told me that she herself was seeing a therapist, I said, wow, like, I had no idea.

She said, yeah, like, you may not know what a lot of people are. So it's like, it's okay. And my therapist told me the same thing. So that gave me a sense of relief where you just like don't feel alone anymore. And that's why, like, I'm sharing my story because I'm wondering how many people are out there who might feel alone, who may not know a way out. I just want to tell them that I was in the same place. And I wished somebody had told me their story and had told us. like it's okay to ask for help like you know get therapy get the support talk to somebody

I took months to actually see a therapist so I hope that when people read my story they they they ask for help friends is such a kind of through line in your journey as I'm hearing you talk today like the importance of friends missing friends making friends how would you define a good friend I mean it's It's like a place where you feel you can be yourself. When I am in the company of my friends, I don't think about being correct about everything. I don't think about, am I saying this thing correctly or not? And you just don't think twice.

You can be yourself. You can let it all out. It is a non-judgmental environment that they create for you. And especially for people, like some of us who are. exposed to a public life and who have a public profile, we have seen how, you know, we can be criticized or scrutinized for almost anything. And we have to somehow just say all the correct things. But when you find friends that you trust, who love you and support you no matter what, you can be yourself with them. So like with my friends, I, you know, I can be silly,

I can be funny I can talk about any topic I can talk about boys and astrology and you know we can discuss their their love lives and in that moment

I just don't feel like I have to be somebody or I have to like live up to some sort of a profile that I have I feel like I can just simply be myself yeah

I think that's what we're all looking for yeah friends are everything yeah and as you're finding your way in this book I imagine it becomes harder and harder with people who know more about you

even if they don't know you to really break that barrier down. Yeah, so I remember the first week of college I had decided that I will say hi to everybody I might be overdoing it but it's okay, it might feel cringe but go say hello to everybody because you don't want it to be like your school life

you want to make as many friends as possible I remember saying hi to Cora who became like my first friend at college and you know like sort of when we connected we were talking about what we were studying and what we liked about our subjects and then we were visiting these different exhibitions about different societies and clubs at the college fair so then there was this like Oxford Union Fair as well it's like a famous debating society. And, you know, I was like hiding this identity of mine, of being, you know, an activist. So I'm looking at the poster of the Oxford Union and I see all of these like famous speakers who have spoken there before. And then I see a photo of mine. And I was like, oh, you know, why did they put it there? Or like, how do I hide myself? Because this is like the last thing I want to see.

And then some people spotted me. They asked for a photo. And this friend of mine, like, she was just so supportive. She took, you know, photos of me, you know, with the fans. And I was like, oh, like, it's over. She may never want to talk to me again. Like, the friendship is over. But once that was done, you know, I was like, I'm so sorry.

I said, you know, and she said, it's okay. Like, you know, and we just quickly changed our conversation back to, okay, like, you know, what are we going to get for our groceries or, you know, when is our next essay and all of that? I think with friends like these, you, like, you know, you can be more yourself. When you're writing about in the book, it was more about school than college, but you became the resident advisor on romance. Yes. is what you say, and then there's this beautiful part where you say,

how are you so good at spotting red flags when you've never been on a date? And you say, I guess I'm a better coach than a player. And I was like, you know, talk to me about that experience of again, like it goes back to what you were saying earlier. Like you're trying to live up to this symbol. You're not binge watching TV shows. You're not dating. You're not, you know.

No. Walk me through that paradox of being a young woman who's, wanting to experience the world growing up, but then having to keep this reminder almost of what you stand for. Yeah, I mean, I had become this relationship guru in college. Because everybody was going through some problems with boys. You can imagine there are always problems.

Somebody was getting ghosted or the boy was not replying for two days and my friend is like, do you think he loves me? And I'm like, are you missing the sun? And, you know, I, you know, I was helping them understand, you know, to some, I was saying, like, you need to move on. Like, there's more in life. And then they were like, how do you know it all? I was like, I don't know. Yeah, I do sometimes say, you know, like, a coach doesn't have to be on the field.

Like, I did not expect to have, like, a love story. And even though, like, just growing up, I had seen Bollywood movies and, you know, everybody has imagine Shah Rukh Khan, like figure, you know, we all imagine ourselves in the Shah Rukhan songs. Yeah, yeah, of course. But I became very self-conscious after the attack because my facial nerve was damaged on the left side and that caused asymmetry. And, you know, like my smile and the features were not the same anymore.

And, you know, sort of like you notice, right? Like you notice you're not the same person anymore. so I became more self-aware and I just thought okay like I you know I should not like I just thought like nobody would love me and at the same time I was like but nobody because you know we're like so um hard on ourselves that we're like you know but nobody should love me and I just want to focus on on the work now that's love life is not for me so that's sort of what I thought um though in college I did find a crush he was like good looking guy Not my husband, a different guy, a good-looking guy, a really mysterious character, more like a gangster kind of character. I did not know I was attracted to, like, the bad boys. And it was more like a one-sided love in imagination. It wasn't real because, you know, he would just sometimes like say hello to me, come to my room and eat all the bananas and cookies and then disappear. You know, there was like, there was like I just had no idea.

My friends would sometimes say that, you know, he's doing drugs and stuff. that so stay away from him and I was like no he needs my help like somebody needs to protect him yeah but like when you yourself are in that love phase then it's you can't see it clearly it is true like you know you just can't see it but yeah then that crush ghosted me and that story was over but I was like you know at least I just went through a moment of feeling love and maybe I loved it because I was under this like assumption that you know, I cannot be loved and I will never find somebody. So I said, there's no harm in just loving somebody in your imagination.

Yeah. I mean, that feeling of I won't be loved and maybe it isn't for me, that feels like a really deep kind of emotion that doesn't just disappear. What worked to help work through that? Like what really allowed you to work on that, especially when this feeling came from the incident. And from being attacked, it didn't come from yourself. You didn't have that before.

You know, girls have been sort of told to be insecure about themselves. So I would not say that there was like literally no insecurity before. But after the attack, I became very, very insecure about my looks. But so much that I just said, you know what, I don't care about it. When you set a new pathway for yourself and you say, you know what, like love life is not for me. I don't care if nobody loves me and it just doesn't matter and I think in the middle of that

I just forgot to love myself that was the hard part but when I found this new guy in my life Asar who's now my husband so there's a good ending to this story you know I immediately fell in love with him

because he was like so good looking hot and handsome funny he had a good sense of humor he was laughing at my jokes. I thought he's just so entertaining. I was like, wow, like, is he the, is he like the person that I had sort of imagined, you know, for myself? So when, you know, when Asar and I started like talking and we were getting to know each other, I knew that I love him and I wanted to be with him, the marriage was a whole different conversation

so we can come back to that. But the other conversation was about me accepting that he loves me. I was in so much doubt. I could not trust it. I, you know, I just constantly felt like, you know, but why would he love me? And then, like, in the end, I just told myself that, you know, somebody can't write a proof to you to say, hey, I give you a proof that I love you. if they are treating you with respect and they make you happy

and they're there for you and they want to spend the rest of their life with you then they love you and embrace that accept that don't question it, don't doubt it you can't give them any guarantee they can't give you any guarantee

so I had to like process that it was really hard but in the end I accepted it because I constantly would have these questions in my head but are you okay with like the way I look, is it okay if I can't have like a full smile and are you okay with like sort of the left side of my face and all of that? Like sometimes like I would try to ask him these questions and sometimes these questions would be floating in my mind. And then I would just remind myself like

he's he's here with you. He's looking at you and he's smiling. Like he can't stop looking at you. He's calling you gorgeous and beautiful. So accept that. Embrace that. Aser, loved me and he, you know, with him, like, I have felt this immense love and joy. So he loves me, but more than that, I think I started loving myself. Wow, I love hearing that. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much for taking us there. Yes.

The multitude of emotions that every person goes through and definitely what women go through, but then to add your own experience to as well. What was Asa's background like when it comes to women's rights and education? and, you know, how did he, what was his viewpoint on that? Of course, I assume, of course, it's supportive, but I'd love to know what his journey was and his experience of that was. Yeah, I mean, he has two older sisters who are like 18 and 16 years older than him. And so he usually says that he grew up with three moms.

He wasn't as close to his dad. He has like the right views. I know sometimes men receive a lot of praise when they're saying, the right thing, we're like, wow, this man is so nice because he believes women should be allowed to work or, yeah, like women should be making decisions about their bodies and about their career, anything. We're like, wow, he's such a nice man. So yes, I do sometimes say that he is an amazing person, like, so open-minded and, like, he just respects women's dignity and see and see them as like equal humans and which is, which should be the case. But then

at the same time, I'm like, that should be called a basic man. It's a basic normal man. It's so true. It's such a great point. It's such a great point. Yeah, and I have been praising my dad so much for being like this amazing feminist dad. That should be a basic normal dad. Yeah.

Yeah, well said. Absolutely. That is brilliant. It's a basic man and a basic dad. Exactly. That's what we're trying to aspire for right now. Exactly. No, it's true.

You couldn't have said it better. It's not an achievement to think. we should have equal rights and equal opportunities and yeah there's no there's no greatness in that it's obvious yes it's really really obvious yes makes a lot of sense was it was it hard for you to fall in love and date and build a relationship with the expectations that come from you know your home that come from culture that come from family like of course you've talked about your father being more forward thinking when it comes to women's education but i feel like dating love romance These are not easy topics in a South Asian home.

All of these things were on my mind. But I think the one thing that sort of held me back was marriage. Because, you know, like I had to then understand that like in reality, if I want to be with Asar, we have to get married because culturally you cannot be with a person, you know, you have to like get married to live with them. Yes. So I knew that, you know, I cannot sort of like change that whole culture all of a sudden. And at the same time, like I said, you know, like I have seen how marriage has changed the future of so many girls who were forced into it.

I, you know, we know that tens of millions of girls every year are married off before the age of 18. and this has been an institution that has given less to women through history and across the globe. So it wasn't that I was against marriage or for marriage or any of that, but I was just confused. I said, like, okay, like this is not an easy decision. And I felt that I was thinking collectively for all women when I was considering marriage for myself. So, like, on the one hand, I just wanted to be with Asar. I said, like, there's no doubt about that. But at the same time, I also was grappling with this idea of marriage.

In the end, I, you know, I did all of my, like, research and I chatted with my friends. And we were, like, reading books by famous feminist authors and all of that. But I said to Asa that, you know, it's about this, like, mutual agreement between us. And the more we talk, the more sort of, I said, spend time with him. I just understood who he was as a person and how he would be like a great supportive husband. And I just saw how I enjoyed my time in his company that when I was with him, all these questions that would be floating in my mind would just vanish. And I remember we went to Lake Placid and this was a few months before marriage while I was still thinking. I said

maybe it's like over, maybe like I'll ask him all the questions and he'll answer one. one incorrectly and it's done. But the more time we spent together, I was getting those answers without even asking those questions. So on the last day, in Lake Placid, he said, so are you going to ask me the questions finally or not? And I said, I think I have the answer.

And I said, I'm ready. I think I'm ready to be with you for the rest of my life. So then, you know, a few months later, we finally got married. and I still say that I am not proposing that marriage is the best decision for every woman out there. I'm not saying it's the worst decision for every woman out there. I think it should be a conversation that we should be having openly and we should redefine these traditions, these norms and talk about how it can be this beautiful, mutual agreement

between two people where they add more to their lives and make each other's lives happier, more joyful, more adventurous and that we challenge the elements of it that have given less to women and talk about the bigger problems.

Absolutely, yeah. And the book you wrote, how to choose between an institution I didn't believe in and a life without the person I loved. and it's really interesting to hear you make sense of it and again it sounds like it was such an intentional decision and there was so much thought behind

why and what and how and I think that yeah I agree with you no matter whether someone decides to choose to get married or not I think that level of thought is just inherently important and necessary but because I just thought I would never get married I would tell all my college friends do not get married, stay away from boys.

It's just a waste of time and all of that. So I was strongly against marriage for a long time. And then I fell in love and I was the first one in my friend's group to get married. They were rolling their eyes. They were like, seriously, seriously, that's what you were advocating against? I was like, oopsie. I was like, you know, you should never listen to a person, you know, if they randomly give you advice. I said, I'm an education activist.

Like, listen to me on that. Don't consider me an expert on every topic, especially marriage. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. How do you, when you look at just how your life has changed, how the world has changed, when you observe what's happening in the world today, what do you focus on? What are you reflecting on? What are you aware of? I think the world is constantly changing, but right now it feels that.

that it is becoming more and more difficult for women and girls. And I'm saying this because of what we are witnessing right now happening in Afghanistan. For the past four years, the Taliban have limited women and girls from education, work, and any public and political life. The Afghan women activists and different human rights groups are calling it a gender apartheid, which means that it is a form of an apartheid or a system of, oppression simply based on gender, that if you are born a girl, you have a different life. You cannot even dream to be in school or to work.

So, like, when I just think about what's happening with girls' education, how there is a country where girls are banned from education. And at the same time, there are conflicts, wars, and a genocide happening where schools are bombed, where children are attacked and children are losing their future like, you know, from Sudan, Congo all the way to Palestine, like what we have witnessed happen in Gaza

like right in front of our eyes on our screens. It's like, it's terrifying. I just simply wish for a future for girls where they can live a dignified life with full access to education. And we know that that cannot happen if we do not address the problems or the injustices that are happening right in front of our eyes. So these topics, you know, whether it's about the wars and conflicts or whether it's about like climate-related events like floods or other injustices, like you, we cannot separate them from how it's affecting girls' education.

And at the same time, like, you know, we can, we can think differently. We can think about investing in the future of girls. we can think about investing in education or focusing on children as a way to help us address these problems as well. So education is like one of the most powerful and like best solutions to a lot of the world inequalities, injustices. So that's, you know, that's something that I advocate for. That's the focus of my work. So these are like the issues that I focus on. What are you seeing that's actually making a change in places where women and young girls have been held back? Yeah.

What are you actually seeing as moving the needle and creating the shifts that you're wanting? It is the local activists who are driving real change on the ground. My father and I started as local education activists in Swad Valley. I thought, like, nobody knew what we were going through more than us. And I feel the same about all of these other pressing problems that we hear about in the world. You know, if we are talking about Afghanistan, if you're talking about Gaza, if you're talking about Nigeria, if you're talking about

girls' education challenges in Pakistan or other countries, we have to work together with the local activists because they understand the problems and they understand the best solutions

to those problems as well. So when I started my foundation Malala Fund, I was ambitious to make change happen everywhere but I had to really question myself what can help us make real change. I have given many speeches and received many awards and all of that, I can tell you that it's not about

one speech. Even though, like, in history we are sort of taught, like, it was that one speech of, I have a dream that changed everything. No, I think it's decades-long work to shift narrative, to change policies, to change the law, that is real change. And yes, everything like adds up. You know, we cannot say that, you know, one action is completely useless. It adds up, but we have to have a bigger picture. So through Malala Fund, we are investing in local education activists in Nigeria, in Pakistan. We're also working in Ethiopia, Tanzania and Brazil. And then Afghanistan is our priority country because of the literal ban on girls' education.

We are providing support to the local education activists who are giving alternative education to girls right now. You know, we're thinking about ways to help take education to the homes of girls. when the Taliban are not allowing them to be in school. This is like our short-term response. But we cannot see this as normal. Girls should be allowed to be in school. So we are also supporting the Afghan women activists

who are doing advocacy, leading these campaigns, asking leaders to hold the Taliban accountable and they're asking leaders to codify gender apartheid to recognize what's happening in Afghanistan as a gender apartheid. to put more pressure on the Taliban, to include women in the rooms where decisions about their future are made, to put women's rights on the agenda, and to change the reality that women and girls in Afghanistan are living under. Like, for me, if you ask me, are we doing enough or not? For me, like, the response is like, yes, we are doing something.

But I think about the girls who are out of school right now. For as long as the ban continues and girls are not in school, I don't think we're doing enough. So we constantly need to be doing more whatever is in our capacity to help Afghan women and girls have the future that they deserve. So supporting local education activists is the most powerful way to drive real change. That's really helpful because I think so many people want to help and they don't know where to start or what the right thing to do is

and to hear that from you, I think we'll give a lot of people here the opportunity. A lot of our listeners are people who want to serve, who want to support, We want to help from across the world. And I guess the Malala Fund and some of these places that you're supporting would be great places for people to contribute. This is the model of Malala Fund. It's like the fundraising we do, we allocate that money into grants, into these local organizations who are working in all of the countries that I mentioned, like Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan. And I have visited the work of these organizations. like I was in Nigeria

and these activists are just incredible people some of them have worked for decades they have changed policies in multiple states like five years ago a girl was not guaranteed education beyond her primary level

and today she's guaranteed her secondary education it's because of the work of these activists so they do an incredible work they have changed the lives of so many girls, empowered them. And when I meet the girls, like, you can see the change happen, like, right in front of your eyes.

So it's like they're truly inspiring. And I actually focus on supporting young women and girl activists. So when we talk about activists, I'm like, we have to support the girls because they're the ones who are actually experiencing these problems and these challenges. And they can be the best ones to actually advocate for their rights. So I also focus on, like, giving grants and support to the girls' activists. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that.

And I really hope that if I can be useful at all or of service, then please let me know. I'd love to be involved. It's such a – I have a younger sister. And I feel like that I was raised by my mom and took care of my younger sister. So I feel like I've always grown up with that understanding and at least a – at least a feeling of that. And having grown up in London, of course, it was somewhat easier. But at the same time, you still see the discrepancies that exist. And so, yeah, if I can be useful, please let me know.

As I've been listening to you today, Malala, I've been wondering now when you look back at the attack and you look back on that moment, how do you process it after the therapy, after the years away, after the seven years when it came back? like how do you view that day and event now after all this time funny enough today is the 9th of October while we are recording it and this is the date when the attack happened so it's been 13 years do you know I live it as a normal day I do not want to think about it it is really hard to process this day because somehow this day is about the gunmen who attacked me. And that's why, like, I just, you know, I want this go, I want this day to go as fast as it can because I just do not want to think about, you know, how, you know, a person, a gunman could decide to target a 15-year-old girl.

It's really hard. It's not just about, like, what I experienced, but it puts you in a place where you, you You feel less hope for humanity. But in moments like these, I just try to live this day as normal as I can and not think about it. And I just remind myself of the millions of people who stood with me and supported me. I think about the immense love that I have received. I just think about the incredible activists who have joined hands with me to help create a better future for girls. I just think about the collective work that we are all doing.

So, you know, I just reflect on how we can create a world where no other child faces a bullet, how we can create a world where every child can have the right to be in school and play and read and learn and have a normal childhood. So it's just a reminder of this commitment to creating a better future for every girl and every child out there. So that's what I focus on. Yeah, I really appreciate how human and true that answer is because I think often we externally, we project a glamorized view where people are like, oh yeah, that was the day everything changed. and, you know, my life, I look back and it was one of the best things that ever happened because, and it's like, you know, just it's unhealthy and it's wonderful to hear it from a very human emotion of just like, I don't like to think about it, you know, it's, it's much more,

much more real to hear you say that. And I think it's important. That's what I think this book Finding My Way does is that people get a real view on what activism actually looks like because I think we have I think we're looking for heroes and because we're looking for heroes we have a glorified view of what activism looks like yeah we see them as like a more global figure yeah global figures are also doing amazing things but it's the people who we have not heard of we have not seen on our screens that are changing the lives of people I have traveled to so many countries and met incredible activists who have transformed the lives of girls by standing up for their education.

Like, I was in Tanzania, and I learned about these incredible activists who themselves, when they were in school, you know, had to fight for staying in school every day. And today they are changing the lives of many girls out there. They're, you know, giving them bicycles because they have. to walk for long distances to have the safety and to make it to school sooner. They are giving them safety in schools. They are changing the laws which did not allow girls

who became pregnant and mothers at a young age to return to school. They have like reversed that. They're like, every girl should be in school. When you look at these milestones, it just gives you so much more hope. And I'm just like so proud of the work that Afghan women activists are doing.

they are resilient, they are standing up to the Taliban, and they are the future of Afghanistan. So I have so much hope. I know that the Taliban would not be in power forever. It's the Afghan women and girls who will be shaping the future of their country. Malala, before we end, usually I end with a final five. Okay. Before we do that, I want to ask you, is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you wish you had a chance to share here?

In this book, one other topic that I discuss is a sense of belonging, and I have really struggled with that because of the way I had to leave Pakistan. I have been to Pakistan many more times after that. that because I just did not want to give up on seeing my home again. I wanted to see the mountains, be by the river, smell the fresh air and be in the place where I grew up. But at the same time, I have now met so many people around the world. I have seen different countries and I have found a sense of belonging everywhere now. And I feel this sense of belonging when I'm in the company of my family, when I'm chatting with my friends and we are laughing out loud, or when I am holding the hand of my husband, this is sort of the sense of belonging that I feel.

And I think, you know, it's like when you meet so many people, you just realize we're all one. So I hope that we can promote more of that. and I have always had this sense of like home and I was always looking for home like we've always lived in rented buildings so I just never thought like what was my real and my true home but now you know for me like home home is everywhere and I have been on this journey to make change happen for for girls in the world and the one place that was always on my mind, was my own hometown in Pakistan where I saw how girls were still dreaming to finish their school. And there were no high school in the village where my parents were born.

So when I started like Malala Fund and when I won the Nobel Peace Prize, it came with the prize money as well. So I said, you know what? I am going to make a school there. And it's considered to be one of the most difficult areas to work in because it's up in the mountains and nobody wants to go and work there. But I said, if we can make it happen there, I think we can make it happen in any part of the country. We worked on it for the past seven, eight years. And this year, the first class graduated. Wow. I went to Pakistan in March. I visited the school for the first time. It was so different than what I had seen on PowerPoint presentations and in photos, you know, like just seeing that in the middle of these mountains,

there's this beautiful school where gulls are learning. They are playing, they are talking, they are laughing. They are dreaming of having a future for themselves. It was the most rewarding feeling. And what I loved was the support that they received. Like they play chess and it's like a state-of-the-art school. they have all of these different, like, activities. It's an incredible school.

But when I saw the mental health office, that made me so happy. And the girls were telling me how they get mental health support. They sometimes do these different activities where they just sing together and dance and sometimes just scream to let it all out. So when I was just reflecting on my own mental health journey and how I wished we had like more support than I had more support, and how, you know, we want more support for girls. It just gave me so much joy that the girls were getting the support that they were, that they deserved and that they should have.

So that was such a rewarding moment. And it gives me hope that we can make education a reality for every girl in every corner of the world. And all those 122 million girls who do not have access to education, we can do something for them. We can ensure that every girl can be in school. Every girl can complete her education. First of all, congratulations. I mean, that is such a, I can't comprehend or conceive of just how momentous that is for you to be able to open that school.

And what I love about your focus is that there's the academic education, but there's also that value that you're putting on the emotional education that all of these girls require. so that they can truly achieve their full potential and not be held back. Yeah. Because the academic qualification gives them access and, as you said, creates more equality. But the emotional education helps them protect themselves and really stand up for themselves as well. So that's incredible.

I mean, I hope I can visit one day. It sounds like such a beautiful place to visit where it, yeah. It's incredible. Malala, it's been such a privilege. and honor to talk to you honestly. I really mean that I always knew it would be but meeting you and sitting with you here face to face getting the chance to read

your book early it's beyond what I expected it surpassed all my expectations just the depth the grace the humor with which you carry yourself as well as you would give it five stars so endearing more more we end every episode

of On Purpose with a final five these questions have to be answered in one word I always say one word word to one sentence, but nobody does. No one doesn't, so it's, I can ignore it, but one sentence maximum. But Malala, these are your final five. Okay. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

I love it when people make you feel that they're there for you. You know, their words mean everything to me, of course. I, you know, I really appreciate that. And I also offer, like, words of support to the girls I meet. And sometimes, you know, like, people roll their eyes like, You know, what can they do to a girl's life when you tell them, believe in yourself, follow your dreams? But I remember hearing those words when I was a, you know, a child. And it meant everything to me because some people give you this hope and this belief that maybe you can do it too.

So these things mean a lot. But I think more than that, it's you offering your support and making somebody feel that you are there for them. They're not alone. I think actions are just way more powerful. Yeah, I can agree more. Love that answer. And you're so right that these cliches are a cliche for a reason because, you know, when you tell someone you believe in them, sometimes someone needs to hear that the most in that moment. And so it can't be undervalued.

Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? The list is long. Maybe getting a fringe cut, fringe like bangs. I did it in COVID time I did it in COVID time That's such a good answer No it was terrible It was a terrible terrible advice

That I took from a friend And I wait for like two years For it to return to the normal length That is a brilliant answer That's so good Please don't get it if it's not for you You know

That's so good Question number three What part of yourself Are you still learning to love? I am so ambitious about seeing change happen in my lifetime especially when you receive so much recognition and support I always feel like I have received more than what I deserve I mean like getting a Nobel Peace Prize at 17

I can work for the rest of my life and still feel like I did not deserve it because still millions of girls are out of school. So, you know, I would keep on questioning myself, like, can we make the change happen? Can we make it sooner? But I then remind myself that it's, you know, as much as we love to say one person changed the world, even I myself said one book, one pen can change the world. I think a person can start a change. They can spark it.

but it is the work of collective activism that can help us see the change become a reality. So I just constantly remind myself this. You know, I'm at times disappointed, like, why are these things happening? But it's, you know, Afghanistan, Gaza, 120 million girls out of school, child marriage, so many things. But then I'm like, the work is in action. it is happening, keep supporting education activists, keep doing the advocacy, keep empowering and uplifting girls' voices, and stopping and, you know, like, and doubting yourself is not the answer that, you know, you don't want to go still where everything stops.

So keep it going, accelerate it, but it's a constant conversation that I have with myself. Yeah, I'm taking a slight detour from the final. because you said a couple of things that when you talk about 122 million girls in the world who don't have access to education, what's the primary reason for that? Or how does that break down across? Yeah, I mean, you know, there are many reasons for that. On the one hand, it is the supply side issues. So there are like not enough schools. There are not enough safe schools. The quality of teaching is not good. Distance to school is a big challenge. Safety at school is a big problem. So because of all of these reasons, a girl is not in school. In many places

there are not enough high schools for girls. So people have invested enough in primary, but have not invested enough in the secondary education of girls. But then at the same time, there are also like cultural and social norms where, you know, it's become a taboo where girls are not allowed to be in school. We are seeing this happen in Afghanistan and many other parts of the world where just education is discouraged for girls. There are just too many restrictions that girls face. But I do believe that, you know, there is a way for us to work towards solving these problems.

And I think it has to start with investing in education. We have to address the supply side issues first because you want to make a school before you go and address the more, like, you know, the social stigma or, you know, how do we change the mentality? and sometimes those things just happen naturally. We have seen in many areas, including my parents' village in Pakistan, where once the school was built

and a state-of-the-art education was provided, the norms started changing themselves because they saw the real power of education, how these girls are having these different career paths that they could achieve. they could not only be helping themselves, but they could be helping their families as well. And everybody realizes that it's actually a benefit to the community as well

when a girl receives our education. There's economic empowerment. There's more prosperity, poverty reduces. And, you know, it's for the benefit of everybody when girls are receiving an education, including men and boys. It helps men and boys as well when we have more women educated and empowered. Talk about that.

Because I think that's a, that's a challenge that's being talked about in the West right now, at least this idea in America that now, if you look at it, women are more likely to graduate, they're qualifying more than men are. And that's an interesting talking point. Talk to us about how women being educated is actually good for men as well. Educated and empowered women actually are helping men in their families as well. I do not know about like every country in every context but I have seen how this shift has happened where the boys were sort of usually told like you are supposed to be the breadwinner the girl is married off but the boys are supposed to be taking care of the family but if the girl is also able to get her education she can also contribute to the family it reduces the burden that is expected from the boys and that everybody is contributing to

to the family and everybody can look after each other as well. We have also seen that when like more women are educated and there are open conversations about, you know, the role of men and like challenging gender stereotypes that can like help us have better, you know, feminist men or like men who appreciate women's rights and they're like, so, you know, we need, we need better sons, we need better brothers, we need better husbands and fathers as well. So, you know, I think working for girls' education

is sort of a way in which we can have more productive and helpful conversations and see this cultural shift. And at the same time, like when we talk about investing in girls' education and talk about policy change, that also directly benefits boys' education. It's never about like invest in girls' schools only.

It's about invest in every school. But let's come up with gender. inclusive policy. So we are addressing the problems that specifically cause girls to drop out or that can help us ensure that a girl makes it to the next year in her school. And it can also help us, you know, when it's gender inclusive, it can also address the problems that boys are also facing. Wonderful answer. How prevalent is child marriage still? Yeah, I mean, child marriage is still a big issue in many countries and sometimes we sort of see news

how the law is also being reversed. I think I heard about it happening in, I think, Iraq, which is like really crazy. I think it should be a law in every country where a child should not be married off. It should be just illegal, it should be banned and people who do it should be held accountable for that. And at the same time, we need to sort of

change and challenge the culture around it as well. So, you know, using storytelling, TV shows and stuff like that can also help us to change these perspectives. But it's an issue that is affecting many girls, like including in Pakistan, India and other parts of the world. Yeah, I can agree with you more. Thank you for those two parts I'll put into the episode accordingly. I took a little detail.

Question number four of the final five. what does peace look like for you today? So when you asked about peace, I just think about world peace immediately because I have lived under a time when we used to hear gunshots and suicide attacks and bombings and, you know, like every 10 minutes

you would hear a sound and you were just worried like whose house has been targeted, who has lost their life. So when somebody asks me about peace, I don't think about, like, you know, peace at heart or, you know, being at peace with yourself. I usually think about world peace. And, you know, I just, I hope bombings. I hope wars stop.

You know, we have to speak out against it. You know, what I have experienced personally and how I have seen other girls and boys being targeted at school. And, you know, how they have lost their loved ones. they themselves have been injured. I met Palestinian refugees in Egypt just a few weeks ago, and I just saw like, you know, they were injured, they had lost a sibling, they were separated from their family members. It is just heartbreaking how absence of peace is taking away the right to life from so many people. they cannot live a normal life that we all you know most of us are our privilege to have so when I am at moments when I'm just like looking outside the window and I and I see a normal life I'm like okay you know there are normal cars and people are walking around and and people are chatting and laughing and there's no bombing no firing buildings are not destroyed I just feel grateful

but I wish that for everybody I think it has to stop these are all human-made things they're not happening itself these are human-made we have to really question ourselves about the hatred that is created these hateful ideologies

that are created how people are being dehumanized like the dehumanization of people is a very big problem that's where it begins and that's what worries me the most when I think about like you know what's happening to women in Ghals in Afghanistan, they're being considered as second-class humans when we think about these different wars that are happening or what's happening in Gaza. It's, you know, it's like

the dehumanization. So, you know, I hope that people see each other as equal. We see, you know, we see ourselves in other people and we, you know, stand up to this, you know, these arms and these like violent tools that are being spread in the world because it's it's a big problem so I wish for real world peace and then that would give me peace and I would feel more at peace with my with myself what would you say to a young girl who looks at the state of the world and doesn't feel hopeful right now I would tell her you know I felt that many times I still feel it many times but then I remind myself

that there's something that I can do today I feel that we all have the capacity to drive for change so sometimes we want the world to change we want somebody else to make it happen but

we cannot wait for it to happen itself or for somebody else to do it for us sometimes it's us who can be that change maker so I don't want you to lose hope so I don't want you to lose hope and I want you to know that you could be

the change maker you could shift things and you could drive change and fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be?

one law you know I'm not like that aggressive I'm not authoritarian though I have a lot of laws and rules for my husband and my brothers and my dad a lot of rules for men

maybe we should just have just rules for men who cause a lot of problems I mean I I do see the significance of creating laws on the one hand because you know what's happening in Afghanistan is beyond just gender discrimination.

And if we look at the current laws in the international system, it cannot recognize the scale of the oppression that is happening there. So that's exactly why Afghan women activists are advocating for it to be recognized as a gender apartheid in the crime against humanity treaty, which basically means is that like countries should not just be allowed to look away or normalize. relationships with the Taliban or just simply condemn it and just feel like, okay, you know, we have done our job, that countries should be obliged to respond and countries should be held accountable to respond and they cannot be allowed to normalize relationships with oppressive regimes like

the Taliban. So I think, you know, better laws are really important. We just need more protection for girls' rights. And right now, it is a crime for girls to to be learning in Afghanistan. Let's process that. They're punished if they disobey this rule because the Taliban are abusing their power and they're punishing women, putting them in prisons if they disobey any of their absurd rules and restrictions that they have imposed. But on the other hand, if we look at our international law system, it is not recognizing

what the Taliban are doing as a crime. I think the ban on education in itself should be recognized as an international crime and the Taliban should be held accountable for that. So I do believe that there is a huge significance in creating laws that can protect the right to education for girls and that can protect the rights of women and vulnerable communities at the same time. I also think it's about how we change as people and how we do things differently. how we challenge ourselves, you know, we don't need, we don't necessarily need laws to be acting differently, like, you know, the most powerful thing is free will. And we all have the

free will to be better, to be doing the right thing. We don't necessarily need laws. So sometimes I just also think about us doing better and just being more responsible, standing up for what is right, standing against injustices, and sharing solidarity with those who are oppressed and who need our support. Malala, thank you so much for... It wasn't one word, right? That wasn't, but it was brilliant. Thank you so much for writing this book, Finding My Way.

Thank you for coming and sharing it with our community here today. And thank you for having the courage to continue to find courage in all your different transitions and phases of life. Thank you. It feels like you've lived a million different lives in, you know, the short span that you've been here on earth, but your words, your actions, your work affects millions and millions and millions of people every day. Thank you.

I just want to say one final thing that, you know, we talked about a lot of things. I have talked about many topics, but one thing that I feel people don't know about me is that I am a very funny person. That came across. Yes. So I want people to know that, you know, in this. book, of course I'm talking about very important topics, but humor is something that has helped me through life in many ways. And humor is everything to me. So I laugh through many

things. I laugh about many things. And so, you know, you will learn a lot about this book, but you will also be, you know, laughing with me or, you know. At you. Yeah. Or at me. Just so you know, the first thing Malala said to me when she came in the room today, She was like, your wife's a lot cooler than you. And I was like, yeah, my wife's amazing. She goes, yeah, you don't even need to say that out loud. I was like, wow, I'm being roasted already. Yeah.

No, I think your humor has shunned through in so many moments today. And it's a beautiful part of who you are. And I'm so glad you're sharing it. And I'm so glad you're showing us what a full human looks like, you know, beyond a symbol, beyond a role you play. But what it means to have feelings and relationships. in her life. Yeah, no, this is me reintroducing myself

and the most important thing is being true to yourself. That is the most important message from me. Thank you, Malala. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama,

where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you.

No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new technology and we've just taken it in, hook-lying and sinker. And we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be thumbing through this stuff, you know, their mind's never sleeping. This is an I-Heart podcast.