On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Matthew Hussey: The #1 Dating Mistake Keeping You Stuck (Focus On THIS Over Chemistry and Build a Lasting Relationship)

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

In this live conversation, Jay sits down at the AT&T Performing Arts Center in Dallas with Matthew Hussey for an honest and refreshing discussion about modern love, dating, and relationships. Together, they unpack why dating feels so exhausting today, how we confuse chemistry with emotional chaos, and why real connection is often quieter, steadier, and healthier than we expect. Their conversation challenges the idea of “finding the one” and instead reminds us that great relationships are something we build over time through trust, consistency, and emotional maturity. From setting healthy standards to learning how to communicate your needs without fear, this episode is full of relatable insights for anyone navigating love in today’s world. Jay and Matthew also explore the importance of self-worth, emotional safety, and trusting yourself enough to walk away from relationships that no longer serve you. It’s a thoughtful reminder that love shouldn’t make you lose yourself, and that the right relationship should help you feel more like yourself than ever before. In this episode, you'll learn: How to Stop Chasing Chemistry How to Set Healthy Standards How to Communicate Your Needs Clearly  How to Trust Yourself Again How to Date Without Losing Yourself How to Break Toxic Dating Patterns How to Create a Strong Relationship The right relationship will never require you to abandon yourself, shrink your needs, or constantly prove your worth. Real love grows through honesty, patience, consistency, and the courage to stay true to who you are. Listen to the Love Life with Matthew Hussey podcast for more modern dating tips. Visit https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-life-with-matthew-hussey/id1064051384    With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe   Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:18 How to Stay Open to Love 05:08 Is Chemistry Actually Misleading? 11:22 Healthy Standards vs Unrealistic Expectations 15:48 Are Your Needs Being Met? 22:14 How Do You Know They’re the One? 26:42 Why Great Relationships Take Discipline 31:13 Should Relationships Feel Hard? 34:29 Why Communication Feels So Difficult 37:59 Chemistry vs Compatibility 39:14 When Should You Meet Friends and Family? 40:13 Keeping Your Relationship Off Social Media 42:37 The Secret to a Lasting Marriage 45:00 It’s Not Your Job to Fix Someone 50:36 The Need to Stay in Control 57:27 What Overgiving Is Really Costing You  Episode Resources: Website | https://matthewhussey.com/  YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9HGzFGt7BLmWDqooUbWGBg  Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/CoachMatthewHussey/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/thematthewhussey  TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@thematthewhussey  X | https://twitter.com/matthewhusseySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast guaranteed human. You have the desire to help to make a real difference? The College, LaCity, you offer the program Dependence and Scenta Mental. Acquare the competences essential for accompanying and support the people confronted to the difficulties of health and dependence. Construise a career enriching

to service of the community francophone of all the country. Don't know the soin of quality in French, it's possible with the CIT. Visit Collage Lasc. right now. An initiative of the Consortium National

of Formation in Health in Health Canada. I'm Bailey Taylor and this is Ike girl. This podcast

is all about going deeper with the women's shaping culture right now. Yes, we will talk about the style and the

success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations and the real work behind it all. As a woman in the industry,

you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are in your integrity.

You know, I like to say, I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at Sir may be over,

but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. It's unruly, it's unawraid, it's untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I am so excited to be here tonight at the AT&T Performing Arts Center in Dallas with my dear friend, Matthew Hussie.

Oh, my God. It's lovely to be with you all. I was sat right there, actually, watching the first half with all of you, and it was so fun. I enjoyed it. You were amazing. I loved it. I loved being out there with you all. weird to now be on this side of it.

Well, thank you for coming, man. Matthew and I've been friends for a few years, and I've always found your love relationship, dating advice to be so fascinating and interesting, and I feel like you have such a good perspective on it all, and I know a lot of people here were very excited to dive deep into it. So let's dive straight in. I want to start with probably one of my favorite questions to ask you

is how do you stay open to love when you're exhausted by dating. I feel like, how many of you are dating right now make some noise? Right. So people are tired of dating apps. They're tired of dating. They're tired of figuring out what to wear, who pays the bills, how much do you spend? Like all this stuff, dating has become exhausting. How do you stay open to love when dating has become so tiring? I think dating is an interesting word because if you just if you just take away the word dating, we are just human beings that deeply want to connect with each other. We really, most of us, I think,

if not all of us, deeply want to find love, whether we admit it or not. We want to have that experience. And it's a, the idea of dating in order to find love is the part people hate. We don't want to do the process, but we really want the result.

And I'm a big believer in the idea that we have to stop seeing it as dating and start seeing this is just an ongoing expression of parts of ourselves that we want to express anyway. Who among you doesn't just enjoy being flirtatious at times because that's part of you? Who among you doesn't have a sexual side that wants to be expressed because that's part of you?

You know, who here doesn't just enjoy having a conversation with someone cute, not knowing where it might go. I think sometimes we lose that when we become obsessed with the goal all of the time. Yeah. We lose the expression of ourselves that actually, ironically, is the thing that leads to the goal if we can access that. The problem is that playfulness gets lost. Once we start freaking out about our timeline, we start freaking out we want a family. We're worried that we're going to run out of time. You know, we want to get married.

We see all of our friends getting married. We're the one who's still left. We think there's something wrong with us. We're starting to worry that it's never going to happen for us. That kind of anxious, fearful energy robs us of our playfulness. And now we go on a date as a kind of shadow of the person that we once were when we started this process, as someone taking it very seriously, as someone. who the moment you give an answer on a date that I don't like,

I'm not like I'm on a date with a stranger who just said something. I'm like, you're wasting my time. What are we doing? I gave you an evening. And you just gave the wrong answer. You just gave the answer that means I know you're wrong for me. Why the fuck am I here now? I'm mad at you.

But you don't even know this person. So we lose the curiosity. We use the play and we get kind of further and further stuck. Yeah, the idea of switching, dating for connecting, relating, flirting is such a healthy mindset because dating now has so much baggage and that word carries so much weight. And as you said earlier, if you've started to feel that it's exhausting and tiring and draining, that word now, oh, I have to go on a date comes with, oh, God, I've got to get ready. Oh, gosh, like, how long is it going to be?

can I get out early? And so that word's carrying so much weight now, whereas when you start saying, wait a minute, just see it as connecting, just see it as relating, just see it as flirting, all of a sudden you're like, oh, I could do that. That's possible for me. And it might be worth it for its own sake.

There might be something about this process of connecting with other human beings that is worth it for its own sake. Is chemistry overrated, underrated, or properly rated, and defend your answer? I'm going to say we overrate the wrong kind of chemistry. And we underrate the right kind of chemistry.

Thank you. I think that we get chemistry mixed up with a whole bunch of other things that aren't really chemistry. Like someone doesn't text you back, and you get feeling in your stomach, and you go, this must matter a lot because it's making me feel awful. Why do I feel like crap right now that this person isn't texting me?

I feel afraid. I don't feel good enough. And then, you know, hours later, after waiting and waiting, they text you, and all of a sudden you go, ah, I'm okay, I'm okay. Oh, that feels so good. And you go, I've really liked this person. It had nothing to do with the person.

It had everything to do with their absence. Are you in love with their presence, or are you love with their absence? You know, we get addicted to these cycles with people, and it's kind of what we know, and it's very, very dangerous. It happens to us all the time, and it happens very quickly and very subtly and very sneakily. A lot of us will get suspicious if someone likes us too much. That's so true. It's almost like if someone likes us a lot, we go, there must be something wrong with you.

But then someone comes along and they're not sure about us. And you go, you might be on to something. It's like we date as if dating as a VIP nightclub. There's great places. You could go and have an amazing time in these places. They're serving the same drinks. There's even better people at these places because they're not. pretentious and they don't take themselves so seriously and there's just people having a good time

and they're not trying to show off by the fact that they're in the right club and then you walk past one place and there's a big dude with a guest list and you go what's that and you try and go in that place and they say I'm sorry your name's not on the list and all of a sudden you start wondering what amazing things must be going on back there there's nothing amazing going on back there they're creating demand so that you want to be in there it doesn't make the place any more valuable It doesn't make the experience any bedded behind those closed doors, but they're creating an artificial demand. And that is what so much of chemistry is,

is this feeling of I'm having to sing for my supper in dating, I'm having to win you over, I'm having to find a way to access safety. And here's, you want to know something really messed up. There are relationships that you were in where you felt an insane amount of chemistry or what you called chemistry for a while

right because I'll always say to people be very careful if you had an amazing weekend with someone and you felt like there was so much chemistry it was a weekend right so don't go for the rest of your life comparing the people you date in a genuine like progression and evolution to someone you had a holiday romance with

for two weeks going, why can't I just feel that? You felt that because they went home. It's like fireworks. Fireworks are the best thing ever for about 10 minutes. The only reason fireworks are so magical is because they end. If fireworks didn't end, they'd be the most annoying thing in the world. When you go to Disney or wherever you see fireworks, they know there's an optimal amount of time to show them for to create that magic. And there's a moment to stop them so that you leave on that high. A lot of us have done that in our dating lives. And now we're comparing everyone to the fireworks we had once with someone that only created

them because they left, because it ended. Now, some of you, as I was about to say, have been in relationships where the chemistry was there for a long time. But be very careful about the relationships where you felt like that. like you were never really safe in the relationship. Because there are relationships where the chemistry ends, because the chase never really ends. You never really feel like you had the person,

even when you were with them. How many people put your hand up have ever felt like that? You were with someone for a long time. You never really felt safe, like truly safe. Like, I've got you, we're in this together. And when the chase never ends, the chemistry never ends. Now we go out looking for someone to be that all over again, and what we're really asking is, can you make me feel as unsafe as I did last time around?

Because that would just really keep me alive in this. What an answer. That was amazing. You reminded me of a study that I love that talks about how what we don't understand with the chemicals of chemistry are that we're experiencing excitement, but we're experiencing stress. So there's the stress of, crap, are they going to text me? and then there's the excitement of, oh my God, they just text me. And then there's the stress of, oh, my God, are they going to ask me out on a date?

And then there's the excitement of, oh, my God, they just asked me out on a date. And then there's a stress of, oh, crap, what do I wear? And then there's the excitement of, all right, they liked what I was wearing. And so chemistry is really just excitement and stress. And when you spend more time with someone, what happens naturally? The stress goes down. You know they're going to show up. You know they're going to message you back.

You know they like what you're wearing. And so when the stress goes down, we think we lost chemistry. And so we confuse peace for boredom. We think, oh, they just got really boring. Now they don't entertain me. But really, it's what you're saying. So I want to ask you, what's the difference between healthy standards and unrealistic expectations? I come across people a lot who will tell me I have really, my problem is my standards are too high.

and I'll be like, tell me about your standards. What are they? And they'll start reeling off standards they have for, you know, the way someone looks and where they've got to in life and, you know, how impressive this person is, how shiny this person is, and the kind of person they need to hold them. And then I'll say, well, when was the last time you felt that? And then they'll start talking about some person in their life that has been a been treating them horribly for the last two years. They've been on and off with this person.

They've been constantly kept in limbo. They've never felt like they were really chosen by that person. And they're like, that's who I really feel it with, you know. But I just need to find, like, if I could just get that person to commit, then I'd be happy. I'm like, so when you say you have high standards, what you really mean is you have incredibly high standards for things that are incredibly superficial or don't matter, and you have no standards for someone's character or for how they treat you. People who say they have high standards

often have non-existent standards for being treated well. So my philosophy on standards is, when we talk about what are healthy standards, we have to start raising our standards in the areas that really matter. How kind is someone? Can I actually rely on them to show up for me? When I was first dating my wife,

on our third or fourth date, we were supposed to meet up. I went to the theatre in London with my family, and at the end of this show, I was like, hey, you know, why don't you come over this way and we'll go somewhere, whatever? And she, I didn't know this until later, but she was not happy with this

because she had been to me the last like three times. She sent me a message and she said, hey, there's a really great bar near me. I think you'll love it. Let's go there. And I was like, you know, my family's here. We just went to the theater. It'd be a lot easier tonight if you came this way.

Do you mind? And she was like, no, no, listen, it's all good. We'll do another night. She took it away. She said, okay. let's not have a date tonight. She didn't do it in an aggressive way or even a passive-aggressive way. She just said, let's do another night.

That was a healthy standard. That was her way of saying, you are going to have to start meeting me halfway, or this isn't going to work. She didn't have to say it. She just had to live that standard. And when it wasn't being met by me, she kindly took it off the table.

And had I, the next night, said, can you come to me, she would have done the same thing again. That's a healthy standard. And a lot of us, when we think we have standards, what we really mean is we have a list exactly. And there's a big, big difference because a lot of people with a list are being treated the worst and seem to be okay with it. Audrey, how long did it take him to get the message? Where are you? I'm asking Matthew's wife. that night. Oh, that night.

Oh, he was on it. Okay, yeah. He was smart enough to get the message. I love that. But that's such a great example of someone also communicating their standard in a way that isn't aggressive, that doesn't create drama, that isn't like making it a big deal, but it's just clearly saying, like,

well, this is what would work for me tonight. What I want to get into is why are we so scared? And this, by the way, happens, even if you're already married, even if you're in a relationship, even if you've been together for a few years, we're so scared of communicating our actual needs because we're scared, it will scare the other person away. And so we'll tolerate bad behavior

and accept less than we deserve. Before you came out, I asked everyone how many people have accepted less than they deserve and the crowd went ballistic, which is always funny. But it's true, right? And I'm saying that with empathy, like we all do that to ourselves. And it's painful when you've realized, wait a minute, I don't communicate what I'm saying because I'm scared of pushing that person away. Walk me through that.

Why do we do that? And how do we get better at it? A big problem for us is we're more connected in the moment to the fear of losing someone than we're connected to the pain we have experienced in the past by not sticking to our standards. So the pain in the moment that's more real is, I want to find love. And this person seems like a viable candidate and I don't want to lose them. But we've been in situations in the past where we didn't follow a standard, where we didn't say, this is what I need, and we were in a miserable relationship as a result.

Think of a relationship where you didn't get your needs met. Just everyone for a moment, so I can think of one. I remember a relationship that was hell on earth for me, where I did not get my needs met. Think for a moment about a relationship where you didn't feel loved, where you didn't feel considered, where you felt like you were always an afterthought, where you felt like someone made plans unilaterally, and you never got a decision, you never got a vote.

They just came to you at the end of having made them. Anyone felt that one? Horrible, right? You never know what your life's going to be, because someone else is running it for you. Ever been in a relationship where you didn't feel that someone was affectionate in the ways that you needed? where you didn't get the touch that you needed, or the sex that you needed, or whatever it was.

Think of a relationship where your standard, although it wasn't a standard then, but your need wasn't met. I bet you it was a special kind of torture. And when we're first out of a relationship like that, we're very connected to that torture. And that can make us say never again, But the longer we're single, the longer we're on our own,

the more disconnected we become from the pain of that, and more connected we become to the pain of being alone and to the fear of never finding someone. But it's a false economy to lower our standards in order to get someone quicker, because going slow is faster. Going slow is faster. When it comes to love, going slow is faster.

You know what, slow? Like ending up in the wrong relationship. for five years. Losing someone in month three because you realize you're not on the same page or going slow when someone else is trying to like, you know, go full throttle

who you met last night and is already telling you how amazing you are and how they can't wait to see you again and how they want to have your babies. It's like it can feel like, oh, this is in some way, we know there's something wrong with that, but also kind of it feels nice

because it's like this is exactly like finally someone's at least like this into me. So it can feel weird to put the brakes on somebody else, but we go slow to go fast. You can only know someone's impact in the beginning. You can't know their character. I don't care how great they were on a date. No matter how amazing someone felt on a date,

you do not know their character. You only know their impact. Character can only be measured over time. So you need time. That resonates so strongly. I've always said don't fall in love too fast because we start making future plans with someone and we don't even know their past.

We start dreaming up what life could look like when we haven't even lived a day with them or a month with them or a year with them. And it's so fascinating how the mind is this imagination machine like we're the best fiction writers in the world in our mind. The best. And we get so carried away with the version we're writing in our mind only to realize

that reality never really caught up. But we were living in the promise. I was literally talking to someone a client of mine a couple of nights ago and they were just saying to me, they were like, Jay, now as I'm talking to you, I'm realizing I was just living in the promise. I never actually had it,

but there was the promise. One day we'll have this. One day we'll do this together. One day we'll move in. One day, we'll do this. One day, one day, one day, one day. And it was just living in promise world and dreamland. but never in the reality of where they were.

By the way, I've done this with, like, men I've met when I go out, and I, like, will go to a social function and meet another guy who's just, like, charmed their pants off. I'm just like, oh, my God, this guy is amazing. I would say to Audrey, my wife, I'd be like, that guy was the best. I've come to learn this about myself, that I can't trust my judgment in the first hour. because some of the men in my, like some of the guys

that made the greatest impression on me that I was enamored, like, I just want to be this dude's friend. We're going to be best friends. I know it from the way he spoke to me tonight. I'm like, six months later, I'm like, I can't stand this guy. This guy is terrible. And this guy does this to everybody. And this guy's like, he's just, he's that guy.

And there's a wonderful phrase that will save you all, a lot of heartbreak. And that phrase is just, we'll see. By the way, you don't have to lose your romance to say, we'll see. Your friends will come to you. How was your date last night? So great. We had so much fun. Like, I haven't had that much fun in a long time. Oh my God. That's so exciting. Do you think that? Easy. We'll see. You can have both. You can have both. You have both, but the will see is really important because character is consistent and you can only measure consistency over time. You have the desire to help a real difference? The College of the City will offer the program Dependence and Scenta Mental.

Acquare the competences essential for accompany and support the people confronted to the health and dependence. Construise a career enrichingance to service of the community francophone of all the country. Donned of the quality in French, it's possible, with the City. point CA, day now. An initiative of the

Consortium National of Formation in health and by Sante Canada.

Hey, I'm Nora Jones and I love playing music with people so much that

my podcast called playing along is back. I sit down with musicians from all

musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's

a little different but it all involves music and conversation with some of my

favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons I've had special guests like Dave Grohl,

Levee, Mayvis Staples Remi Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point. Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me each night, each morning. Say you love me. You know,

So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes and life experiences that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. I also bring a bit of advice into the mix so we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Do you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pull out what you already have inside. We're coming into this world,

fighting for our lives. All I'm going to do is pull out what you already got inside. We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that's not like your story versus my story. You're going to walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just going to put your mind over it. Yep, yep, exactly. And if I can't walk up and over it,

I'm going to go through it. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to ask you a question that always goes through everyone's mind and seeing as you're on fire tonight, in the out of the park, this is like, let's go for all the tough ones. How do you know if someone is the one in a world where there's plenty of fish in the sea? We're constantly being exposed to other people. It doesn't take that long to feel like there's. a million more options. How do you know if you're with the one or if you're just settling?

I think it's really interesting. This is a weird comparison, but I think it's really interesting to watch someone who's built something really amazing in their career. I've watched Jay for a long time and we've been lucky to be friends for some years, but I had seen Jay doing his thing before I ever had met you. And it's such a joy to see this act of creation happening over and over again in your life where what you started doing evolved and changed and it keeps evolving and changing.

The core of it is the same. And what's driving you is there and the values that you have. But it's changed over and over again because you're constantly sculpting it to be your ideal version of. of it. And it didn't start as your ideal version of it. It started with like a, it's got enough of what I need that I can keep going with this because I feel like I'm on the right path. That's

what that journey is like in our careers. You don't find the dream job. You create the dream job. Right? It's, you know, the thing I think that makes us never able to stick with a career or a business or an idea is that we want it to be our dream thing on day one. And it just doesn't work like that. It needs to be sculpted. There are plenty of people in here who have created businesses that look very different than the business you started on day one because you kept sculpting it. You realize I don't like that part of it as much as I thought I would.

Let me change that. But the core of it is the same. It's like that in our love lives. When we go around saying, who's the one for me, We are missing the point that what we do is we find a human being where there's enough of the good stuff, enough of the values and the compatibility, a much underrated thing.

If chemistry is overrated, compatibility is woefully underrated. Love is not all you need. Compatibility is all you need. We find people, and we expect so much on day one. And I think that like great sex, it should get better over time. You meet someone and they learn you and you learn them and it gets better because you learn each other. That to me is what a relationship is like.

So it's finding someone with enough of the raw materials, enough of the things that make you go, oh, this kind of works. I feel more myself around you. I feel at home in the best way. I don't feel like I'm trying to be something that I'm not to impress you. I see you, you see me, it kind of, there's something interesting here.

And I think if we can get curious about those feelings, instead of looking for this kind of otherworldly feeling, we'll realize how many people we could actually work with. And then it starts to get really interesting, because you realize there's a lot more ones than you knew. And you don't start with the one, someone ends up as the one. I think that's the difference.

They don't start as the one. They end up being the one because of what you've built together. And now you look back and they go, oh, look, they're the one. But not on day one. I think love at first sight is a very, very dangerous concept. Like, love at first sight is such an insult to two people who have been married for 30 years. You know what I mean? Yeah.

They're the one. Okay, tell that to two people who have been married for decades and have, like, weathered storms. and one of them got sick, and the other one drove them to the hospital every week, and their relative had a drug problem, and you had to put up with that relative with the drug problem because this is the love of your life, but you figured it out together. And like, that to me is love. Love isn't, I went on a date and now like, oh, my God,

I feel the best I've ever felt. I think that's so powerful, and what a great perspective, because, yeah, I was thinking about that, as you were saying, that, you know, when me and Riley first got together, and then we got engaged and got married. I thought I knew her, but it's actually through the last 12 years we've been married, nine years we've been married,

12 years we've been together, that I actually feel like I understand how little I knew her when I said I love you, which is a really fascinating journey to go on to your point, where it's like the day we got married was not the day I loved her the most. It actually wasn't even possible, even though I may have said that on that day.

And it's now when we move to a new country, and didn't have any family or friends. And when we were four months away from being broke, and she said, I trust you. And then the next morning wanted to buy a plant, right? It was like moments like that. It's moments like that. And then you move to another place and you build community

and you take care of your family and rush. It's all those moments where you go, oh, now I know what love means. And now I'm building the skills and the toolkit of what it means to truly love you. And actually, my biggest mistake was I also thought I knew you. when we got married. And now I realize I didn't.

So what I love about the advice you're giving of create it, you don't find it, is that that never stops. What you're saying never stops. And that's why it's great advice. Because if you had to find the one, that means you were done the moment you found that person. And that mindset creates such a fracture with reality,

which is, wait a minute, you're going to have to create and build, using your words, create and build every five, 10, 15, 20 years, it's never going to stop. And that requires discipline. It requires discipline, and it requires being connected to your why, to your reasons, why the relationship itself is important. I think that's one of the most missed things in so many relationships is, I have these things I call emotional buttons, and they are basically how I access an emotion.

that I want to feel again. So, for example, there's a moment in the movie The Fighter with Mark Warburg and Christian Bell. Christian Bail. Christian Bail, yeah. There's a moment where Mark Wahlberg is, this is going to sound crazy specific, but this is how emotional buttons are. Mark Wulberg is about to go into his last fight and he's nervous and his brother comes up to him and he puts his head on his head and he just rocks with him. And the crowd is going crazy and it's all you could feel the chaos and the nerves and his bigger brother just comes and makes him feel safe. And that scene, I get goosebumps as I say it, that scene, I cannot think of that scene without thinking about the kind of brother I have two younger brothers without thinking of the kind of brother I want to be to my brothers.

No, I'm not going to say that one because that one's about Audrey and it's too, she doesn't know I have this emotional button, but it's... No, because it's a little thing she does. If I say it, she will stop doing it because she'll become aware of it. And it makes me love her so much. But it's a little thing she does. And when she does it, I feel a deep... It's like a not a rational thing.

I feel a deep, deep sense of love for her. and I want to make her as happy as I possibly can. I get that because I think of that thing that she does, and it connects me, it connects me to my wife for why I want to show up differently in the relationship. And a lot of us don't have these emotional buttons, and we certainly don't use them consciously every day. Winston Churchill said people occasionally stumble over the truth,

but most pick themselves up and carry on as if nothing happened. We occasionally stumble over a moment of truth about why we love someone, about why they matter so much to us, about how much our relationship enriches and enhances our lives. If we don't understand what just happened that made us feel that and bottle that, we will move on as if nothing happened, and then the next time we feel it, it will be by chance. And if that's three months from now, you just went three months without connecting to that feeling,

which is three months where you might be, you know, showing up in lesser ways. to the relationship. On the other end of that, when is the work too much work? Right? Because there's a spectrum on that. So on one side, we're saying, hey, we've got to create it, you've got to build it, you've got to work on it. And then I'm sure there are people in the audience going,

I've been working on it for a few, you know, or someone made me work on it for quite a while, and then I realized, when do you know it's too much work? Like, how do you know when you're at that end of the spectrum? I don't think there's any one moment. I think when we realize over time that we have shown up to the best of our ability, and we have tried to find a teammate in them, because you have to have a teammate for that.

If you want something to change, you need a teammate in helping you make that change, or you need their participation in that. There are so many people trying to make a relationship better on their own. you need someone to be with you in that process. If you don't have a teammate, if you don't have someone who acknowledges, that's why being with a partner who doesn't value growth is so hard. Because you don't have to have someone who's perfect if you have a learner, someone who's humble, curious, willing to grow.

But if over time someone shows a complete lack of willingness to figure this out with you, and you've communicated that with them, that, I think, is its own form of closure. The problem for a lot of people is that they only really communicate how truly unhappy they are or how many things they've been struggling with

on the day of the breakup. That, especially in a long-term relationship, that's not a fair thing to do to our partner. Like, I think we owe it to ourselves and to them to create the closure of here's what I'm really struggling with. And I'm bringing this to you because I actually care about this relationship. And I feel safe enough to bring it to you and to have that conversation.

But it's really affecting me. And this is really, you know, it's affecting me in this way, in this way and this way. I need us to work on this. I need us to take this seriously. Whatever that means, whether you and I do it, whether we do it with a coach or a therapist, whatever we do, I need us to take this seriously. This needs to be a priority. for us. You and me looking at the problem, not me looking at you as the problem. You and me together

looking at the problem and saying, this is an issue. Can we figure this out? I think then if over a series of months, you're like, I haven't got a partner in this process or things aren't getting better, one or the other, then you might make that decision. But even if you realize you do have a partner in the process, but it doesn't get better. At least your partner doesn't wake up one day to a complete ambush of having no idea any of this was a problem. And then all of a sudden, they get hit with it all today. I think we owe it to each other for someone not to be surprised on the day that it ended about the things that made it end. Yeah, there's such a reality to communication being the hardest part not because we're even bad people but because we were just

never trained in an emotional vocabulary right if you didn't see great love mirrored you weren't able to mirror it if the people in your life always just shut down when there was a problem then you may shut down or like you said not only do you only have the conversation on the day have the breakup, you only have the conversation as an argument. So it was never a conversation. It was an argument, a disagreement, a full-blown fight. It was never shared in that moment where maybe it could have been digested, maybe it could have been heard, maybe.

And a lot of that, a lot of our fear of saying the thing that feels unspeakable is our desire for control. We're trying to control the situation. and when we're like a lot of us and I listen no judgment because I've done this several times in my life and I'm not proud of it but we are trying to protect ourselves and so we hold back and hold back and hold back and hold back in the meantime by the way we're grieving we're grieving the relationship we're just not telling them that we're grieving the relationship or vice versa I've also been on the other side of this and so many of you.

That's why someone can break up with you, and then two weeks later, they're with someone else. And you're like, how is that possible? How is it possible that you moved on so fast? They didn't move on so fast. They broke up with you six months ago. You're just hearing about it today. That's because they were trying to control it.

It felt safe to them to control it until the last possible minute when they felt safe to leave, and then they left. But their controlling of it is what makes it such a traumatic thing for us and vice versa. So sometimes when we are unhappy in a relationship, we have to relinquish some control and allow things to break to maybe get better or not. But once you break it in some way with your partner in the process, you're also now not fully in control of the situation,

because they can't unknow what they know. Now, that makes us have to live a little more dangerously, but that also might be the thing that makes us attracted to our partner again, because now that they know, they might start doing some things, and you may not even love everything they do, but it might make you start to feel that jolt of, like, you know, something again. Matthew, how see, everyone. That was, wow.

Turned up tonight, Matthew. All right. Before you will let you go, because you've been on the podcast multiple times, which we usually end with the final five, we came up with a new version that you can join in on as well. It's called vibe check. And so I'm going to read out some scenarios in love, relationships, and the audience is going to decide first whether it's a vibe, which means, yes, that's great, or not a vibe. So let me hear you say, it's a vibe? It's a vibe. And then not a vibe. Nice. And then I'm going to ask Matthew, whether he agrees or disagrees with the audience.

All right, so vibe check. Here we go. The first one. You're dating someone who always shows up, always listens, always text back. They're kind, respectful, but the chemistry isn't there. You keep the relationship going because it's the first healthy relationship you've ever been in. Is it a vibe? I'm going to ask you to make noise on either one.

So it's a vibe, make noise? Not a vibe, make noise. That was like mildly not a vibe one by a tiny amount. So they're saying it's not a vibe if you keep the relationship going because it's the first healthy relationship you've ever been in. I don't, listen, don't keep it going for like a year. But like give it maybe a, you know, a month to settle in. Like settle in and see if you can get used to this new feeling.

Because it's a new feeling. If you're used to like crazy chaos, this will be boring for a minute. No one comes off of drugs and then enjoys a sunset the next day. Great answer. You've been dating someone for six months. They treat you like a priority. Talk about long-term potential. But haven't introduced you to any of their friends or family.

And when you ask, they say it's still early. Make some noise if it's a vibe. It's not a vibe? Very clearly, not a vibe. Not a vibe. When should that be happening with that conversation? I mean, listen, there's certain situations that are different. Like, if someone has kids, complicated,

and you have to be respectful of the fact that someone might be taking a serious amount of time before introducing you to those. But if you're talking about their friends or their family, even just their friends, that's a weird thing after six months if you haven't met anyone in their world to verify who this human being is no not a vibe definitely not a vibe great i think we're all agreed on that all right last one for all of those who are struggling with dating out there you've been seeing someone

consistently great dates great connection but they don't follow you on social media they never post you they say they like to keep their private life private is it a vibe Is it not a vibe? Oh, that's pretty equal. Wait, who was saying is a vibe? Is it a vibe? Make some noise? Wait, for how... They don't...

Did you say they don't follow you? They don't follow you on social media. Well, come on. They don't follow you. Listen, it's one thing if someone's like, I don't... I mean, are they famous? If someone's like, I'm very famous and they're like, I don't want to post about...

you right now because it's going to make your life miserable, trust me. But he's probably not famous. There's this whole trend right now about how if someone doesn't have social media and doesn't post, it's someone's Roman Empire, right? It's like so attractive if someone's... Yeah, I do think that. I do, listen, I don't think that it's necessary for them to post about you anytime soon. I do, I do think that. And I think it's lovely when someone is just like their private life is not out there in the world in that way. But it's a bit weird when they're not following you or they're sort of like not having any interaction,

not, you know, I don't want to create any kind of feedback loop whatsoever. Suspicious. Tell my wife that. My wife started listening to On Purpose like last year for the first time. That's kind of like not following me, right? Yeah. But to be fair, I don't think she's ever followed a single thing that I've done either. So I don't think she's just maybe not into this content.

All right. Well, Matthew's been so kind that we're actually both going to take some questions from the audience. So Paige, where are you, Paige? There's Paige. Page is up there. Make some noise from Paige, everyone. So Paige is going to come around. Raise your hand if you have a thoughtful, conscious, kind question,

and you haven't had too many drinks yet. Paige is going to find you, and me and Matthew can take some of your questions. You can direct them at both of us to Matthew. Whatever you like, he's here. So make the most of it. This is great advice, great insight. You have the desire to help a real difference?

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by SOTE. I'm Lori Siegel, a long-time tech journalist, and consider my new podcast, mostly human, your bridge to the future.

Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build an app, and it's very empowering. Each week, I'll speak to the people building

that future, and we're going to break down what all of this innovation actually means for you. What I come to realize is that when people think that they're dating these AI companion, they're actually dating the companies that create this.

We're experiencing one of the greatest tech accelerations in human history. And let's be honest, that can be messy. There's no playbook for what to do when an AI model hallucinates a story about you. But it's my belief that we should all benefit from this moment. Mostly human will show you how. My goal is to give you the playbook. So you can benefit. The reason I say agency is because, like, if we can give power back to people,

then I think that's probably the best thing we can do for your mental health. Listen to mostly human on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with, some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl,

Lave, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode

with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point. Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me, Each night, each morning. Say you love me. You know I...

So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a secret sauce for like a long-term marriage. What's your name? Sahar. Saha, nice to meet you. Where are you from? Houston.

Awesome. Well, actually, from... Sorry. What? In England? Yeah. Oh, no way. Well, I think you should start with this one.

You've had a long-term marriage. Longer term, yeah, sounds a bit. I'd honestly say the biggest thing that I've seen work for us and I've seen work for the couples I interviewed for my last book who've been together for decades far longer than we have is people who never tried to change each other. Respect means I'm not trying to change you. I'm happy to watch you grow.

I'm patient while you grow, but I'm not forcing you to become the person I want you to be or need you to be. I'm happy to let you have the freedom to be the person you are. Because over your relationship, people are going to play so many different roles. They're going to take on so many different hats. There's going to be so many different transitions

that if I don't respect you and let you be who you are, that's going to be the reason why we can't be together. And those signs, of who someone was were really evident in the beginning. You just shut them out because the chemistry or the attraction overtook them. I'll give an example. For me, since Radhi's met me, my purpose has always been my number one priority. And my purpose didn't look like this when we met. It looked like me booking a tiny little room in London and speaking to five people on a Friday night. But Radhi knew that that was my priority. And ever since I met Radhi,

I knew her priority was being with her family. She adores them. She loves them. She's the incredible bubbly human being because of the love that she has for her family. And at so many points in our life, my wife could have said, you work too hard, you focus too much on your purpose.

And I could have said, well, we've built an amazing life. Why do you need to always go hang out with your parents? And those two things would have broken our relationship. But I understand that her family is what makes her the person I love. love and she understands that me doing this is makes me the person that she loves. And so that's, that's normal people that guys.

I love that. I love that. Hi, I'm Victoria from Houston. Hey, Victoria. A lot of Houston in the house. Thank you so much. I just want to know if you think cheating is forgivable, whether emotionally or physically. It's a nice, easy one. Matthew, why don't you go first this time? I should have gone first on that one. I think I heard Robert Green once use the phrase,

if nobody ever does something once. Okay? If someone did something, assume it's a pattern, or that they've done it in the past many times. Now, I think that's really great survival. If I was giving, like, handing out survival advice for life and human behavior, I would say that's a really, really important lesson. I also have to temper that logic.

with a bit of humanity and compassion for ourselves, which is that probably everyone in this room has done something in the past that they regret and wouldn't do again and learned from and wish they hadn't done. And that informed your life. It changed your life in some way. There's a British poet, David White, who can't stand the culture of no-regress, hashtag no regrets,

that we all live in today. He said, anytime I hear someone say, no regrets, I think, where have you been? Regret is actually important. It serves a very important function. When you regret how you treated someone in high school because you were mean to someone or you bullied someone and that affects you, it might change the way you treat people for the rest of your life. If you didn't regret it, you wouldn't change. Do I believe once a cheater always a cheetah? I think life's more complicated than that.

And I think that part of having compassion for ourselves is realizing that other people are capable and worthy of forgiveness too. But, and there is a really, really, really big butt here. It's not your job to fix what someone else broke. The trauma of that kind of betrayal is deep for most people. extraordinarily deep. So if you betray someone in that way, if you want that relationship, you better understand the journey that is ahead

because there is a long journey ahead. You are not in a sprint. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That's a sprint. You're in a marathon. And you saying sorry might be an acknowledgment. today, it might help someone feel seen today, but in six months, it won't stop their emotional flashback. It won't stop them having a revisit of these feelings a year from now when they think

about that betrayal. And you're going to have to be along for that right, and respect the damage you have done and respect that your job now is to be an enormous part of the reparation of that damage. What I see routinely is people who have been cheated on trying to do the work for the both of them. Like, can I be back with them? I don't know. What are they saying right now? What are they saying? Are they saying, you know, I know what I've done?

I know that this has caused deep damage. I know this is going to take a long time. I'm going to be with you the whole way. Not only that, I'm going to... The thing that happened for me, that what triggered that, it is never going to trigger me again in that way. That's never going to be my response to that trigger again

because I'm going to go out and do that. the work to make sure that that's never my response to that trigger again. And that might mean therapy over time, might mean coaching over time. Is that for it, is going to be a long journey for them? Right. There's a great line, Jacob Embraud, said, consider how hard it is to change yourself, and you'll realize how foolish it is to think you can change someone else. How many of you at the beginning of every year set a resolution that's really, really, really important to you and then by the end of January you've broken it. That was something you decided to change and you couldn't stick to it. Now imagine being with someone who cheated and even though they're

sorry because it's inconvenient right now that the relationship is falling apart. They don't actually want to change the fundamental part of them that made them cheat in the first place. If they don't want to do that work, there's no amount of forgiveness on your side that will make any difference to this relationship whatsoever. So be forgiving. That's a very kind and compassionate act. Don't be a fool. Mike drop. No need to no additions. That's a beautiful answer. No need. Hello. Hello. What's your name? My name is Pierrette, Nantang. This is my dream, by the way, to be here, me to Jay. Oh, thank you. So great for you. How do you deal? I think this is this one, Matthew, since you're the dating expert. Not that I don't trust you, but

I haven't dated in a long time because it's been a lot of work to figure myself, deal with the traumas, blah, blah, blah. And I'm in a place where, like, you would think that I'm ready to date because I am who, I know who I am. But at the same time, I'm 43. I've been independent. I pay my bills. I take myself on dates.

I accept my friend requests. I mean, I love my company. But then I also crave, I've always had a dream about having a partner. So it's like I want to meet somebody, but at the same time, I can do bad by my own self. I don't want to get in a relationship where I have to build somebody up. I don't want to get any relationship where I owe somebody or they feel like they're improving my life because right now I'm taking care of my life in every way. I don't mind eating alone. I buy myself hours.

I buy myself everything I want. and I'm not rich, but I'm happy. Got it. So how do I go out, like, how do I start? Like, how do I, like, what do I do I do? I'm happy, but. Thank you. It's a wonderful thing that you have gotten to that point in your life,

where you know who you are, you've done all of this work on yourself, and there's a safety that you have created in the life that you have built. What I hear is that there's this other part of your life that you really want, that you keep saying you want, but it represents an area of life that you can't control the way you can control everything else.

You can control your work, you can control how you take care of yourself, you can control the food you eat, you can control, you know, if one friend lets you down, you put your effort on another friend. Like, you've built all this safety. But at a certain point, what you call independence

is really a desire to keep clinging to control. And by the way, that would be fine, Piavet, if you were incredibly content and happy and wanted nothing more from your life. But you do want something more. which is why you stood up in front of this whole room and expressed a desire to find a relationship. So you want more, but you're afraid of what a relationship could bring.

And my guess is, the part of that is, in learning to really trust to yourself, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that what you're really afraid of is someone coming into your life who you, God forbid, like. And that works everything up. Because all of a sudden it feels like there is an element of your joy that you do not have complete control over. And maybe what's happened in the past is you have a moment. been in a situation where you like someone and all of a sudden you felt very out of

control because you couldn't trust yourself not to keep overgiving in a relationship, not to show up in ways that eventually meant that you got walked over or that your happiness was compromised and so there's a desire never to return to that. And when we have a desire never to return to that, what we really say is I just got to keep myself away. from that temptation, because I know if I get too close to it, it's not someone else will mess up my life. I will mess up my life. Because the reality is, and this is the important thing for you to remember,

if you trust yourself, you don't need to worry about the impact anyone else is going to have on your life. You don't have to trust anyone else. people go how can I learn to trust again don't worry about it just trust you trust not that someone's never going to betray you or they're never going to come along and start taking too much or taking advantage of your generosity or that trust that the moment someone starts doing that you can have a boundary and if that boundary isn't respected you have the power to walk away when you trust yourself you don't need to worry about someone else coming in

and screwing everything up. The one thing that I learned through my cancer journey I'm recent survivor is that I don't... You know how you said the whole no regret things? I do have one regret, but one thing that I learned is that to forgive myself for the regret or whatever, I was to say, well, that's the information I had at that time and I made the best decision that time.

And I know that me, I don't do things impulsively, that I'm very deliberate. I do all the research. So I need to trust myself in the future about what I did in the past. So where I'm at right now, I am glad you said that because I just have to have faith that who I am today, that I've found who I am. You've already successfully protected yourself.

Yes. you've already done it. So the fear that someone's going to come in and they're going to take, they can't. You already did it. You already achieved it. You're already fine on your own. So you can go back to that any time you want.

You just prove that with the life you've been living. Now go out there and make an actual impact because you didn't create all that safety so that you could never leave the house. You created all of that safety so that you could leave the house and you could go blow shit up and know that you could always come home if you had to. I think we've got time for one more question, Paige. My name is Maya, Piazza.

Nice to meet you, Maya. Thank you. It's nice to meet you too. I would like to ask, when you're looking for somebody who can just take you to the next level, I guess in the relationships that I've been in, I have. I have Sometimes I feel like I I love from a place of wanting to make someone else

feel better or bring them up or show them love that maybe they haven't experienced before when I can see that somebody is hurting but giving of my energy to the point where I'm I feel drained and have lost myself. I don't ever want to compromise like that again.

I think I want to be, well, I know that I want to be with somebody who can improve my life and my situation. And maybe my question is how not to let overgiving turn into something that's something too costly, like my peace or my safety. Two things come to mind, Maya. The first is that that overgiving is something that's meeting a need for you. It's working for you on some level. And it's important to figure out what that's doing.

It might make you feel safe. Because when you find someone who just needs a lot from you, that's not the kind of person that will abandon you. But when you actually go out and meet an equal, that's scary as shit. Because that person can leave you. Just like Piavet can leave someone. She's a scary woman. She can leave.

Right? That makes her a force. That makes her much scarier to date than someone who absolutely needs all of the help in the world. So it might be that for you right now, overgiving makes you feel safe, makes you feel indispensable. It might be that that's a model for love you've learned, that you only really feel safe in a situation where you're giving more than the other person is, that you're not worthy of being in a situation where someone just loves you for you and not because of everything you do all the time. The second thing I want to say is that you are,

when you go into a situation trying to give like that, because it seems nice and it seems like a thing to do and someone else needs you. There's another human being in that room that also needs you. When we're in a room with one friend, there are two human beings in that room. And our responsibility is just as much to us, if not more, than it is to the friend. Because our job is to take care of ourselves. It's the only job we'll ever have for the rest of our lives. It's the only job we've always had our whole lives. You are your human. your job no one else out of the 8 billion people on this earth no one else has the job of taking care of the human that is you no one it's your job so the next time you find yourself in a situation where you're

overgiving say to yourself what are you doing you had one job you had one job take care of this human And right now this human is starving for love because you have put her in a situation where she is giving non-stop to somebody else and not getting her needs met. And the truth is, the reason that's happening is because your human is scared of being in a situation that is completely different than that.

This dynamic that you don't like that you complain about is also a dynamic that's very comfortable for you because you feel very safe in it. Now the job is to live a little more dangerous and to start making space for the idea that there are relationships out there that will be truly reciprocal. But when you first find one, it's going to be scary to you, it's going to be uncomfortable, and you're going to feel the urge to keep giving, like, you're going to find

someone healthy and you're going to try and give all this stuff to them all the time, and it's going to scare them away because they're going to be like, why are you doing this? I don't, why, why? Just be a, be normal, be a person. I don't need you to do this. That's what they're going to be like. And your job is going to have to be to realize, oh, I'm going to have to put my normal way of getting significance down

so that I can create space to be significant in a new way. And ultimately in a much more rewarding way than being in relationships where someone is dependent on me and can never leave because I just do so much for them and they absolutely need me. Guys, give it up for Matthew Hussie! Thank you guys. If you love this episode,

you're going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussie on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships. Make a list of the things that are truly important for you to find it. a partner and then be that list. Hi everyone, I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain.

In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Nora Jones, and my podcast playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians. Check out my newest episode with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point.

Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me each night each morning. Listen to Nora Jones is playing along on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where ever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture

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