On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Maya Shankar: Does Change Make You Feel Lost Or Uncertain? (Use THIS Framework To Find Direction Again and Use Change to Upgrade Your Life!)

Episode Date: February 11, 2026

We often think change will make sense once we get to the other side, but what if the real work of change is learning how to stay present in the uncertainty itself? Today, Jay sits down with cognitive scientist and author Dr. Maya Shankar to explore why unexpected change feels so threatening, and why losing what we thought our life would look like can feel like losing ourselves. From a career-ending injury early in her life to deeply personal losses later on, Maya reflects on how life’s unexpected turns can quietly reshape how we see ourselves, our worth, and our place in the world. Maya explains that one of the biggest mistakes we make during change is tying our self-worth to roles, titles, or outcomes. When those fall away, it can feel deeply destabilizing. Instead, she invites us to root our identity in something more stable: our “why.” The deeper reasons behind what we love—connection, service, growth, creativity. When we stay connected to those, we can move through change without losing ourselves. Jay reflects on how often we seek external validation and why redefining success during loss is essential for resilience. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Handle Change You Didn’t Choose How to Anchor Your Self-Worth Beyond External Success How to Find Your “Why” When Life Falls Apart How to Rebuild Yourself After a Dream Ends How to Grow into the Person Change Is Shaping You To Be If you’re going through a season of change right now, remember this: you’re not broken for struggling with it. Change is meant to shake us, to slow us down, and to make us question who we are beyond our titles, plans, and expectations. A quietly powerful read about resilience and reinvention by Maya Shankar, The Other Side of Change invites you to meet yourself again when life takes an unexpected turn - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/729180/the-other-side-of-change-by-maya-shankar/ With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.  Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:11 How Change Has Shaped Your Life 04:52 Why Does Change Feel So Scary? 11:45 Why We Tie Our Identity to What We Do 16:25 What Awaits on the Other Side of Change 24:47 Using Self-Affirmation to Stay Grounded 30:51 Finding Gratitude in Who You Become 39:31 Maya on Final Five Episode Resources: Maya Shankar | https://mayashankar.com/  Maya Shankar | https://www.instagram.com/drmayashankar  Maya Shankar | https://x.com/slightchangepod  A Slight Change of Plans | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-slight-change-of-plans/id1561860622See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human. I'm Bowen-Yay. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan-Cortina-26 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Boen, hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo.

Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane Dabolu.

It's a new year. And on the podcast's Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a lot. little less alone. Listen on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Dr. Jesse Mills, host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist Dr. Steve Poulter to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name. Part of the way through the Valley of Despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice for whether you're going to stay in it. or move forward.

Our two-part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. One of the biggest reasons why change is so scary is that it can threaten our self-identity. One way to have a more secure self-identity is to anchor yourself, not simply to what you do, but to why you do that thing. So first of all, I want to say I'm really grateful to be here with my very, very dear friend, Dr. Maya Shankar.

We've been friends for like maybe four or five years now. And honestly, beyond her incredible resume, incredible list of achievements, continued excellence in everything she does, she's just truly one of the sweetest, kindest, most wonderful humans. And so the fact that you've all come out here tonight to support her and hopefully get her book or you've already got it. How many of you've already got the book? Okay, all of you who didn't put your hand up, I want you to get a book by the end of this.

Truly, I'm just so grateful to be here. She is the kindest, most generous, sweet, loving, wonderful human being. And I'm so happy to be here supporting you. So congratulations, my own. Thank you so much, Jay. It is such an utter delight to be in conversation with you about this topic. And I'm so grateful for your friendship. So thank you.

Thank you. Well, this book that you wrote, the other side of change, I find it such a fascinating topic and read because I feel like there's two types of change. One is the change that you choose and the other is the change that chooses you. How many of you like it when you decide to change? How many of you like it when change chooses you? Yeah, exactly, right? That's like the worst.

It's like the worst feeling. ever it's like what like why did this happen right now like i you know it's and that's like a daily occurrence for anyone on planet earth why did this happen now why did this happen to me what's going on when will this change when will this get better talk to me about how change has drastically altered your life when you least expected it yeah i mean i should start by saying that the reason I study change is because I'm super scared of it and I'm really bad at it. And I hate the unexpected changes by and large that have come my way in life. I am someone who loves having a firm grip at the steering wheel, right? I like being in control. I like feeling like I'm going to

dictate how my life turns out. It feels very comforting to believe that the world is fair and that if you do good, good things will happen. If you aren't good, bad things will happen. It's just a nice, clean, input, output model. But of course, we all know that that is sadly not how the universe operates. And that fills me with a lot of discomfort, right? The uncertainty that fills change. And one of my favorite research studies from cognitive science shows that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of receiving an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance of getting that shock. Is that real?

Yes, 100%. And I feel that viscerally. I'm like, bring on the shocks. Just don't make me have to deal with that anticipatory anxiety that, you know, makes my skin crawl. I had a really formative experience with change when I was a little kid. I was an aspiring concert violinist. And I was studying at Juilliard at the time under Izzak Perlman, who is considered, you know, one of the best violinists in the world. And I really thought in that moment, you know, as a teenager, okay, I think I, I, I think I,

I think I have what it takes. I think I might be able to go pro. And then I had my change of plans. A sudden injury that I sustained while playing the violin was a career-ending injury for me. And doctors just told me, I'm really sorry, but your dream is over. And that was my first kind of foray with this horrible change thing that I've learned to, you know, over time I've learned to have a slightly more peaceful relationship with. But it was pretty tough as a 15-year-old to lose a thing that at that point, Jay, I had been doing for almost 10 years. How many of you have been rejected or failed in that way? Anyone? Yeah, it's the worst. Hearing that news, but especially because of something that you're struggling with injury-wise.

I mean, it's not even like you didn't make it or you weren't good enough or you weren't smart enough. It was something totally out of your control to some degree. when things happen that are out of our control, is it even possible for the human mind to be able to tolerate, accept, and move through it smoothly? Is that impossible? Is it possible?

Is it made up? What's your take? Jay, you're the monk. You need to tell us. Why is he looking to me for answers? I've taken off any kind of, I mean, I'm not a monk anymore, but I've taken off any sort of metaphorical ropes today to be the interviewer for you.

So I have no answers. I'm just humbly asking questions. I know. I'm totally teasing. But that is to say, whatever piece you found, equanimity you found with change, just assume I found about one very small fraction of that. It is a very hard thing for us as humans to reckon with the true limits of our control. But it also makes a lot of sense why our brains lead us to believe we are in control. Because if we didn't believe that we had a lot of control over our lives, you can imagine that we might descend into nihilism, right? We might just think, what's the point of anything? Why am I trying hard? Why am I doing good in the world? None of it really seems to matter because that lightning bolt can just strike me from above, and it was all for not, right?

And what's really interesting about the research is that it shows people who have, and this is called an internal locus of control, so they really strongly feel like they're dictating outcomes in their lives. They in general have higher well-being, greater happiness over time. The challenge, though, is that when that proverbial anvil drops from the sky, it shatters the illusion. And it ends up being a very tumultuous time. And in my own life, what I found when I lost the violin was that there was something so curious about my grief, which was that I didn't feel like I was just losing the instrument. I felt like I was losing a part of myself. Actually, I felt like I was losing all of myself.

It felt like Maya and the violin were inextricably attached. And in taking it away from me, I no longer had as much value, right? It threatened myself worth. It's only when you lose something that you realize how much it meant to you in the first place. I'm sure many of you can relate to this feeling. You're like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize how much of my confidence was coming from the violin. Or, you know, as a kid who was bullied, right, as a little girl in elementary, school, I'm like, oh, wow, violin was a big part of my sense of social belonging, right? When I was at

music school, which was international, all the kids accepted me. They didn't care about the color of my skin. In losing it, I realized actually, one of the, and I, by the way, when I say I realize, I mean this, like, from my current vantage point as a 15-year-old, I was just cranky and annoying to my parents, like, why can't I do this thing I love? But in hindsight, I've now realized that one of the biggest reasons why change is so scary is that it can threaten our self-identity. And I've learned that, and I would urge all of you to engage in this thought experiment, one way to have a more secure self-identity is to anchor yourself not simply to what you do, but to why you do that thing.

So I asked myself, what did I love about the violin? Well, it turns out emotional connection was at the core of my love of the instrument. And just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I lost what led me to love it in the first place. I could still find that underlying feature in other places. I could still express that part of myself through other channels. And it turns out that subconsciously, I've done that, right? As a podcaster, hosting a slight change of plans, writing the other side of change, all of these pursuits have been about forging deep emotional connections of people.

Like, this is my bread and butter. Like, I love having this conversation, right? Like, this is what makes Maya tick is deep emotional attachment to people and connection to people. And so ask yourself, what is your why? Maybe it is service. Maybe it is caring for people. Maybe it is getting better at something and proving it a craft. Maybe it is having a creative outlet like we were talking about backstage.

Whatever your why is, life can't take that away from you. That's something that's going to be a firm anchor. And it can guide you towards your next steps. It can be a soft landing when life makes other plans for you. And I've just felt so much more whole in the transitions and in the inflection points in my life knowing that like my why is still there. Yeah. I love that.

I was about to ask you how to do it. But I love that because I think it's so natural for us to place our confidence in who we're with what we're doing, right? It's natural to evaluate our value in the world based on. I'm placing a little bit of my confidence hanging out with Jay Shetty tonight. I'm sorry. I'm just going to say, sorry, keep going. But it's true, right?

We base our value on all of these external things. Absolutely. And it's fine when it's going good. We were just talking about that. It's fine when it's going good. The moment it doesn't work out, I was just speaking, I'm thinking of something, you've reminded me of someone, I was speaking to a lady who,

I think it was like two weeks after her 40th birthday. And so I wished her a happy belated birthday, and she was a mutual friend of another friend and she was telling me about, and I was like, oh, tell me about your birthday. Like, 40, that's a big birthday. Like, what was a celebration like? And she said, and this is why I was reminded of it

based on what Maya just said and why I think, you know, her book is the book I'm going to be giving to this lady straight after this conversation. She said to me, she goes, oh, my 40th birthday was a disaster. I said, why? she said, I lost my job two weeks before my 40th birthday.

And I said, that sounds terrible. And I was asking her about how she lost it and whatever. And she goes, I thought I was about to be promoted. So she was like, I thought I was about to be promoted. I lost my job. I had my 40th birthday in two weeks where I was so excited to like announce my promotion and invite my work colleagues and talk about this incredible 20 year career. that I'd had and now I didn't have anything to talk about.

She goes, I didn't have anything to talk about. I didn't feel like I'd achieved anything. Sure, I was in a relationship and whatever, like all this stuff. But like I didn't have something that made it feel like my life was going in the right direction. And you're spot on. And whether we do it with our families, whether we do it through our children, whether we do it through our bank balance, whatever we do it through, we all find it through some external validation and what you're reminding us to do is saying pull back and focus on why you love that

thing. Why, though, is it so hard to do that in the moment? I mean, you're a cognitive scientist. So tell us what is going on in the brain when change is thrown on to you and you're like, but I don't like it, Maya. I don't want to think about why. I just wanted that promotion. I just wanted that extra money. I wanted that validation and assurance. How do I do that? Well, I actually, I actually think we're socialized to anchor our self-worth and our identities to the what, to the roles and the labels that we carry. Think about the question we ask little kids. What do you want to be when you grow up? We don't ask, who do you want to be when you grow up? What are your passions? What do you love doing? It turns out from research, actually, looking back to your childhood

is one of the easiest ways to access your why. You want to find out when you were on the playground, what were you gravitating towards? Were you like going crazy on the monkey bars? Or were you like me, like listening to what everyone was saying and trying to understand human psychology and social groups and, oh, is this person thinking this or is that, you know, that was me on the flag. It's like, okay, of course she was going to become a cognitive scientist. But that's actually one of the best ways of figuring out what that core passion is. And look, our self-worth is called contingent self-esteem. That naturally, we like to easily anchor to something because it almost feels uncomfortable to just anchor it to existence, which is what all of us should do at the

end of the day. Like, by virtue of just existing, we should be worthy. But as humans, we are getting signals from everywhere that we need to justify our existence. We need to justify our presence. And it's so interesting because I think someone reached out to me, this guy named Scott, he was a human rights lawyer, Harvard trained, Rhodes Scholar, super accomplished, so many accolades. To your point about getting that external validation, that was what he was getting most of his life as he went through his career trajectory. And then he got hit with terrible long COVID, totally incapacitated. So he was suffering from severe brain fog. He was unable to even read a sentence of a book for the longest time. He was experiencing nausea, terrible, terrible symptoms, and so bad that he had

to take permanent leave from his work as a human rights lawyer. He had listened to my TED Talk. And I had talked about this what versus why distinction, and I heard from him. He couldn't type, so he sent me a voice memo. I remember, and I was listening on my phone. He said, I asked myself what my why was, and it was advocating for underrepresented people, people who don't have a voice. And so then I asked myself with my newly constrained life that I live, how can I still express that why?

And he realized he still could by advocating for the long hauler community. And so now he devotes all of the hours of his day where he feels cognitively capable to advocating for various legislation, talking to drug manufacturers, giving a voice to all these humans whose lives have been upturned by long COVID, who otherwise wouldn't feel represented. And I think that is such a beautiful illustration of my hope with this insight. I love that. How many of you going to start trying that after today?

Right? And we've got to give it a go. We've got to give it a go. I always feel like there's so much good advice out there now. And it's like, Maya's book is packed with these incredible insights. And I'm like, the biggest mistake we can make is go, that's a really cool idea. And then it just goes over our head. It's like that ability to stop and pause and say, wow, like, Myers just repeated this idea like three times because of how powerful it is. And given us multiple examples, whether it's a real life story, whether it's cognitive neuroscience, whether it's looking at it from a practical point of view, and it makes sense.

And so I encourage each and every one of you when you walk out of here. Try and try and apply it to a real life situation. I'm Bowen-Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan-Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Boen, hi, hi, Matt, hi, hi, Matt.

Hey, El-Lon. Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Kirkie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy. give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to two guys, five rings on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcast. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyankawali. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?

We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix, what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist, with over 30 years experience, helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught the name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof,

why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and compassion. If you want this to be the year, you stop powering through pain, and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. I was also reflecting that when I think about all the people I look up to,

they all reacted incredibly well to bad circumstances. So anyone that I admire or am inspired by, and this could be a family member, it could be a public figure, it could be anyone in your life, right? It doesn't have to be someone well-known. known anyone that I look up to had something horrific happened to them and they somehow turned it into the best thing that ever happened to them. And when you study people's lives closely and

I'm sure people have that in their families, I'm sure if you think about your parents and aunts and uncles or you think about ancestors who just did incredible things that we don't even know how they lived through times like that, it doesn't, what's the difference between someone who has something bad happen to them and transforms it into a superpower. Yeah. And someone who has something bad happened to them and doesn't have that ability. Like, what's the difference? Because I think we all feel both of those things. I've had terrible things happen to me and there have been times where I'm like, all right, time to throw in the towel, it's all over, forget about it. And then there's times when tough stuff happens and I'm able to turn it into a superpower. What's the difference? Yeah. Well, I've

really good news for you because as someone who started off being very bad at responding to these negative events and who I think has made incredible progress. This is a malleable trait in us, and I think the difference is in perspective. So I'll say a couple things. The first is we have this funny little trick our brains play on us when it comes to how we think about who will be moving forward. So it's called the end of history illusion. And basically what it says is while we fully acknowledge that we've changed considerably in the past, so if you were to show me pictures of violinists, like eight-year-old violinist Maya, teenager, oh gosh, cringe, teenager Maya. College.

We have their features. Yeah, actually right now. I thought we were friends, Jay. And then, you know, 20-something, I would say, oh, my gosh, I am so different from that person. Do not even show me, like, I'm going to try to create as much emotional distance as I can between, you know, current Maya and past Maya. But then, funnily enough, if you were to ask me, well, how much you plan on changing

moving forward? I'll be like, nope, finish product. What you see is what you get. This is it. And researchers have said that we falsely believe that the present is this watershed moment in which we become the person we will be for the rest of our lives. And again, it is just this funny little quirk in the way that our brains have evolved. And the reason that this is relevant to change is that we become different people on the other side of change. The title's not an accident.

the other side of change. When a big change happens to us, it also leads to lasting change within us. And these big seismic anvil falling from the sky moments, they accelerate those internal transformations. We come out the other side with new values and new perspectives and new capabilities, new ways of seeing the world around us and ourselves, or maybe our family, or maybe our family history, or maybe the shame we felt about some part of our childhood, whatever it is, it is possible for us to emerge a new person. And so the difference that I've come to see, even in myself, is now when I'm feeling daunted at the outset of a change. And my old reflexes kick in and I think, oh, I can't possibly handle what's up ahead. I'm not strong enough. I don't have the right resources around me. I don't have

the right vantage point. I don't have the right values, whatever it is. I now think the Maya that's actually going to have to engage with every part of this process is actually going to be different from the person she is today. And that is so empowering. Like when you're feeling daunted at the outset of change, just know, and I know people in this room who have undergone incredible transformations as a result of the changes they went through. They would never have been able to predict who they would have become. And we know also from research we are bad affective forecasters. We're really bad at predicting how we will think and feel about events in the future. And so that, I think, is the sole trait that people have who are really resilient. They understand that they, too,

are changing as a result of their circumstances, and they are introspective throughout. They think, okay, I'm noticing this change has revealed to me that I have a certain value or belief. Is this holding me back? Is it problematic? Maybe this change is giving me a rare opportunity to revisit that belief. I shouldn't hold it as sacred. I should interrogate it. And so it's been uplifting. And I, even in writing the book, saw this transformation within me as I was undergoing an unexpected change in my personal life that I write about in the final chapter.

And so I fully believe it now, you know, having seen it happen within myself. Yeah, and you were telling me that just before you walked on and not to get into details, but you were telling me that you've literally been reading your own book during new change that's happening while. Not because I'm a narcissist, but because. Yeah, I should have. I should have rewanted. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, I see how that came out now. And then I listen to my podcast. No, I'm just kidding. I'll tell you why I was reading my book. The last month of my life was awful. There were unexpected challenges in my family when it came to health.

And just one example, I don't want to get too emotional, is that my beloved aunt, her stage four cancer return for a third time, which is just very, sad, right? I don't know what's going to happen, and I love her dearly. And as a person who had been writing this book about unexpected change for three and a half years, I think I was engaging in magical thinking, Jay. I was like, all right, I did the change thing. Like, I had the formative experience in childhood, and as I was writing the book, I was struggling to start a family with my husband. That was my second big change, and like, just going to wipe my hands clean. Change over, you know, and then change was thrown my way. And it was so hard and so destabilizing. And I just remember thinking in that moment, you have gained so much wisdom from the people who invited you into their

lives for years. Like for this book, I interviewed people on repeated occasions over multiple years just to understand so deeply their psyche and their life story. And I was like, what a shame it would be if you, do not benefit from that wisdom in this moment. If you don't use those same science-based strategies, you're telling everyone else to use. I didn't want to just talk the talk. I wanted to walk the walk. And so I still remember this one night. I was sitting in my living room and my husband, Jimmy, and I were just spiraling. We were doing the thing everyone does in the face of uncertain change. We were starting to catastrophes. Our anxiety was rising and we could feel it in our bodies. Our hearts were racing. And everything was looking negative. And I remember I pulled out,

there's one chapter of the book I devote entirely to rumination. Separate note, I have a PhD in Rumination, not an academic, not an academic version, but the lived version. I am very skilled in waking up in the middle of the night and thinking about things, you know, till they drive me crazy. And I just remember reading some of these words that I'd written because they hit me even more in that moment when I feel I needed them most. And I was able to actually effectively use these strategies and they helped me in a time of need. And I, it was such a trying time. I was like, how am I going to get the energy to like do this book tour? But I turned the ship around, folks. I did. And I'm here with you right now. And I'm so full of joy. And I think one of the

reasons why you're seeing, oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, absolutely. One of the reasons I was talking about this with Jay beforehand that you are seeing me filled with so much joy is that one, first of all, health stuff just puts everything into perspective. It just right sizes every small or big problem that you're, sorry, let me just let me just say this differently. I'm getting emotional. Health challenges put everything into perspective immediately. And so I instantly had clarity about what this book tour was all about. And it was that I'd written a book for people who are struggling with exactly what I was struggling with for the last three weeks. And it renewed my faith in the importance of storytelling,

in the importance of distilling science in ways that are easy for people to understand and for just connecting with my fellow human beings. And there's been so much healing that's happened even in just this past week, meeting people from all over the country, right? A woman came up to me and said, you know, she looked to be about in her late 30s. She was diagnosed with early onset Parkinson's. So she was dealing with that. And another person had been in a terrible car crash.

And she was dealing with the repercussions of that. And it's just really touched my heart. to be in conversation with people going through this stuff. So beautiful. Honestly, as I'm listening to you, and I'm so glad that you did share that, I didn't know if you were going to, but I'm glad you did because I don't think there's any better test of doing the work than doing it when it's happening right now. Yeah.

And for those of us that share insight or share research or give advice or help people through things, it's only when you're going through that exact same thing. that the advice either stands true or doesn't. I'm so glad you said that because I want to share an example of a time when I didn't want to do the work and I ended up doing it and it really paid off. Okay? So long story short, for years and years and years, my husband and I were on this journey to start a family and we experienced so many obstacles and disappointments and heartbreaks

over the years and a miscarriage with our surrogate. And about a year and a half later, we were just over the moon. because we found out that we were going to be having identical twin girls. And we were just so happy, like, oh, my gosh, how amazing that this has now happened. It's like a blessing given the first pregnancy loss. And we saw two healthy beating hearts. And then five hours later, we found out that our surrogate had miscarried again. And it was to go from such a high high to such a low, low within just a couple hours,

was so jarring for my nervous system. I remember telling my husband Jimmy, I'm like, we need to leave our apartment. Like, I just need to get fresh air. I don't know how to tolerate sort of the emotional complexity of this moment. And all that I was grieving, you know, we talked about identity loss, right? Being a mom was one of the earliest identities that I ever aspired to have. And society always told me that in order to be a full person, I needed to have kids. And for that reason, I felt like it was a massive threat to hear about this loss. And I remember getting into bed early that night, putting the covers over me, and just feeling really, really sad. And my husband Jimmy comes in, bless him, he goes, Maie, Ma'i's his pet name for me.

Let's name five things we're really grateful for. And I'm like, oh, hell not, bro. You take your Instagram, BS, you go into the corner and your toxic positivity. There is no space for that in our bedroom right now. And I was so ticked off, Jay. I was like, I'm not doing this. This is so annoying. But there was something so sweet and innocent about Jimmy's request.

And I also thought, okay, also, if I do this, maybe I'll just get him off my back. Let me just do this thing. Now, mind you, Jimmy's a software engineer. So what he did not know is that he was engaging me in that moment in what's called a self-affirmation exercise. Really fun to be married to a cognitive scientist. Let me tell you. A self-affirmation exercise is when you articulate all the things that bring your life value and meaning that are not being threatened by the change you're going through. So if you're in a tough spot in your relationship, you might focus on your spiritual life. If you're having a rough go of it

at work, you might focus on how meaningful your community is to you. What the affirmation exercise does is that it contextualizes what you're going through. And it actually reduces things like denial. Because when you don't feel like your whole identity is under threat from this change, you can embrace the news more easily and actually start to cope with it. It also leads to greater resilience, less anxiety. There's all sorts of well-being outcomes associated with the self-affirmation exercise. So anyway, Jimmy comes in and he asked me to do this thing.

And I'm like stubbornly like, okay, fine. And, you know, the first item on my list, I was like, okay, well, I'm really. really grateful for you. You know, like, you know, hear the love of my life and you're so wonderful. But then this list just flowed out of me. I'm so grateful to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. What a joy that I get to go into the closet of our apartment and talk to people all over the world about their incredible stories of change. Like never in my, it was not in my bingo card that this was ever going to get to be my life, that I got to interview people and be interviewed by people where you have such incredibly edifying conversations.

I love my workouts with my Zoom trainer. Like we talk about The Bachelor and Love is Blind and it's just so much fun to gossip about all this stuff and it like feeds a different part of my soul. I always say celebrity gossip is my love language. And then I'm like, I'm grateful for the California sun and it just, it was like effortless. It just started to flow out of me and I swear to God, something magical happened in that moment. I had been so single-mindedly focused on achieving this goal of mine. And I'm sure a lot of you can relate to this.

We set our minds on something and we develop tunnel vision. We're like, until I get this outcome, like nothing can rest, that I had lost perspective on how otherwise rich and multidimensional my life was. I had forgotten that, yes, I was in pursuit of motherhood, but there was still so much else that define me. There was still so much that made me a valuable human and were sources of joy in my life. And there was so much to be grateful for. And so did I go to bed overjoyed that night? Of course not. But did I go to bed feeling more whole? Yes, I did. And I'm so grateful that I forced myself in that moment to do the uncomfortable thing because it really helped me in the longer term.

And Jimmy slept on the couch. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then we hired the divorce lawyers, so I'm just kidding. That is good old Jimmy. That's good for Jimmy. Even for Jimmy to have the, like, courage to even say that to you in that moment. I was like, oh, God, I was scared for it. I'm Bowen-Yen.

And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Quartina-2026 winner Olympic Games, We've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen, hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie.

Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to two guys, five rings on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically person? someone to buy a car?

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness.

Mind games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Black history lives in our stories.

our culture and the conversations we still having today. I didn't know. This Black History Month, the podcast, I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either. Digs into the moments, perspectives, and experiences that don't always make the textbook. Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan. Brough had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention. Listen to I didn't know.

Maybe you didn't either. From the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or simply wherever you get your podcast. I feel like I just learned this yesterday. And so if I sound, if you hear this and you go, Jay, I've heard that a million times, then I'm glad you learned it quicker than I did. I literally learned this like two weeks ago.

I was in India back at the monastery that I used to live at. And I was sharing something I thought I'd learned with my teacher. And he has this really remarkable way of teaching me back without making me feel like I'm stupid. But it's kind of like, yeah, you're stupid. You got that wrong. And you've just given me the science to back up what he was saying to me. So up until like two weeks ago, I thought you had to somehow figure out how to be grateful

for what happened to you. We always hear that. Be grateful for what happened. You know, the curse becomes a gift and their nightmare becomes the dream. And, you know, like, be grateful for what happened to you. And I've always felt that you just had to somehow figure that. out through like raw tolerance beating your head over, you know, whatever it took. Like you just had to figure out a way. And if you were deep enough and if you were

profound enough, then one day you could be grateful for like terrible things happening to you. And I felt like that's what it meant to have like, you know, God's childlike level forgiveness and level of acceptance. And he just said this to me. He goes, I was saying that to him. I was like, yeah, I really believe that, you know, one day I'll be really grateful for this and I'll be grateful for what happened to me. And he said, you don't have to be grateful for what happens to you. You have to be grateful for what you have after what happens to you. And it was just this subtle, tiny change that completely freed me of this pressure that I'd put myself under as if you had to be grateful

for not being able to have children or you had to be grateful for having an injury when you wanted to be a violinist as a kid. It's like, no, you don't have to be grateful for that. 100% You could pretend to maybe for a day But you know You've just freed us as well By giving us the science band

And that's why I love your work so much Because you have this profound ability To take wisdom Have the signs to back it up The resets to back it up And then make it sound so simple Even though you're so much smart than all of us But you know

Make it sound so And that's what you do so brilliantly In this book It's like we're like Wow like you're actually speaking to us And speaking to our hearts And I guess you had all this time to practice on software engineer Jimmy.

So, you know, you've had a guinea pig. Oh, sorry. Oh, no, go on. I was going to ask you. Yeah, just to follow into what you said. I think that's so spot on. And the people that I interviewed for the other side of change by and large aren't happy that they had to go through what they went through.

They would not will their changes over again. Who would? Who would invite illness into their lives and a heartbreak and loss? I mean, that would be kind of strange. But they are extremely grateful, all of them, for the person they became as a result of the change they went through. And I feel like that's perfectly echoed by this teacher of yours. They feel like they emerged with renewed confidence, a renewed relationship with their family, a new sense of what was important, a new perspective on their self-worth and where to actually anchor it,

a new way of seeing attachment and their closest relationships. That's the part they're grateful for. And I love the honesty of that because I often say, like, I'm allergic to two things, soy and platitudes. I'm always skeptical when people talk about silver linings and whatnot. I'm like, really? Are you sure? Is that just something you tell yourself because it makes you feel better?

Where's the science to back it up, you know? And so it's so interesting because I was seeing, I wanted to, by the way, writing the other side of change pretty agnostic as to what I'm would find. I identified people from all over the world that I just found fascinating, and I interviewed them for a bunch of years, and I didn't know what lessons I would learn. I didn't know what their stories would reveal, which was an incredibly delightful process of exploration, by the way. It was like, me, like Maya, the cognitive scientist in a candy shop, literally. I started to see this incredibly hopeful message emerge about change, right? Which was that people were grateful for the internal transformation they went through.

And I really felt this deeply, and I was alluding to this before, when I was writing the final chapter of the book, unexpectedly about my own experience on this parent or trying to be a parent journey. And I realized something really important. So I had very slowly and very subconsciously been on my own internal evolution and transformation on this topic. If you would ask me on that night when Jimmy asked me that incredibly annoying question, is anything good ever going to come of this?

I would have said no. Will you ever feel whole as a person if you don't have kids? Oh, definitely not. Will your life have enough color without kids? Oh, my gosh, absolutely. All of those questions I would have said no to. And yet, here I am three years out, and I am child free today, and you are seeing the happiest, most joyful, most curious, most hopeful version of Maya that has ever existed.

And I could never have seen that coming because I, thank you. My dream was cut short, you know, and you don't always anticipate that when a dream is cut short, you'll still be grateful for what happened on the other side exactly to your point. And so witnessing that within me was very moving and very wildly unexpected. I realized, by the way, so one of the chapters in the other side of change is about a woman who has to revisit her relationship with her family history. It actually comes about through a bout of amnesia. It's like one of the most fascinating tales I've come across. And the idea of that chapter is it shows change can actually serve as an important moment of revelation for all of us.

So when a really negative thing happens in our lives, we can often think of it as a personal apocalypse of sorts. The world that we once knew that was so familiar and so comforting to us, so comfortable as well, is no longer available. And interestingly, the word apocalypse comes from the Greek word apocalypsis, which means revelation. And so the etymology is really instructive. Change can abend us, yes, but it can also reveal things to us. And as I was going on this journey of figuring out my own relationship with motherhood and parenthood, I realized I did have quite antiquated views that were fed to me maybe through my Indian American upbringing, right, through cultural forces, through pop culture, through society, through the very special stigma reserve for child free women, that a woman's value was something that was firmly attached to whether she had kids, whether she has kids. I mean, it's a stigma that's still very much. exists today. And part of my process, because I talk in the book about how we cannot view our beliefs and ideas as these sacred immutable truths that ought to never be examined. Most of our

beliefs, most of the ideas we have about the world were inherited subconsciously. They were through, they were in our childhood from caregivers. And we had so much of our love wrapped up in that caregiver that to challenge them, to question them, would have been quite dangerous, emotionally dangerous for us, or we learned them from a teacher that we so greatly admired. And because we were more of a black and white thinker, we couldn't see that there might be nuance. Or we learned it from watching TV or we learned it through who becomes famous or not famous. And all of those ideas are worth unwinding and unpacking. And change can give us this powerful moment where we take a step back and think, wow, is this point of view worth revisiting? And so I credit Ingrid, this woman's story,

for giving me the courage I needed to question some of these assumptions and to now feel like, of course I'm like a whole woman in her, you know, without kids. Like, how could I have ever thought that? It seems preposterous now. But we all grow up with these self-limiting beliefs. And so I believe in the power of change to help unearth what they are and then give us a chance to question them. Well said. Well said. We're running out of time. But I want to end with a little quickfire about change. Okay, I'll try my best. Because I think we always end every episode of my podcast with a quick fire,

but you've already done that before because you came on the show four years ago. I'm not piffy, though, so you can tell. You've answered those questions. So I'm going to give you a new set of questions. So these questions have to be answered in one sentence. Okay. All right. So the first question is, what is the first change people should choose after tonight?

being present when they are with other people. That's a great answer. Very good. All right. Put your phone away. It's okay. Because that really... Not right now.

Keep filming so that more people get the book. And I'm not allowed to go on, but just know that that is also evidence-based. Go ahead. Do you want to tell us the evidence? No, that's okay. It's okay. Let's do it like you.

Okay. All right. Okay. Second question, the change that you were happiest you made in the last 12 months. To care less what people I don't respect, think of me. That's a really hard one.

That's still working on it. I'm like, wait, but I just want, can't we just all feel love for one another? It's like such a naive point of view. But I'm like, I just want people to love each other. And then it's just, yeah, and then, you know, not looking at comments on the internet. Question number three, something you're trying to change this year. Yeah. I am an extremely impatient person.

Can I have a few more sentences? Sure, sure, sure, go on. You've been doing it for all of them without permission, so I don't know why you're asking now, but go on. I'm extremely impatient. I, for so long, hated this part of my personality, though I think one thing that's really helpful for everyone is to remember, there's always two sides to the coin on personality traits.

So my impatience has also really helped me in my work in the White House and my work, you know, at various places like that in patience propels me to try to get stuff done. So I try not to resent it too much. But I think it would be really good for my overall well-being if I just, like, took a beat. So when my, you know, if my boss sends me a message on like a Friday afternoon that's like, hey, period, don't freak out. You can wait till Monday. It's going to be okay. Whereas I tend to kind of like need resolution as quickly as possible.

That's, I think we can all relate to that one. I just want closure. the smallest change that someone can make in their relationships. Try not to impose your mental frame, your way of seeing the world onto the other person. So before you talk at them, deeply listen to them, and then you will be able to find common ground. Great answers. Wow, you're like... I'm trying to be picky. Yeah, this is really good.

This is the final question I want to ask you. Okay. And this one, you can go on on it because I really want to understand it. do you believe that if we chose more change, we'd be better at dealing with change? I love that question so much. So the previous stop of this book tour was in San Francisco, and Michael Lewis was moderating the conversation, so the author and journalist. And someone in the audience asked a question actually about the uncertainty around AI. And as a mom, she was thinking, what do I tell my kid, right? So that they learn to improve. change? Because that's actually kind of what you're asking, right? How can we take strategic steps to

embrace change more? And he gave a fantastic piece of advice. He said, take an improv comedy class. Get yourself off balance. That's really the kind of change that's really healthy for us, is to go outside of our comfort zone, to test ourselves, and to be in almost this perpetual state of unease, because that's when we flex all these muscles. all these abilities that we had that may have been laying dormant because we were always choosing what was comfortable and we get to see them on display and think, oh, wow, like maybe I am a little bit more resilient than I thought. And I think it's so great for us to introduce change in the form of challenge when we learn a new skill, for example. So you interviewed Chris Hemsworth

for your podcast, and I was his brain coach on this show called Limitless. And I was so inspired by his attitude. You know, this guy's like one of the most famous actors in the world. He could just sit back and relax. And he was telling this audience at the London premiere, I think we all need to be a little bit more uncomfortable. He's like, I seek out discomfort wherever I can. He's like, you know, with these nests thermosats that adapt to the ideal temperature

and smart white, like everything's meant to be. be customized so that it brings ease into our lives. And Chris was saying, I feel like that's the only vehicle for growth is to be in these uncertain uncomfortable situations. That's the only way. The episode was all about flexing our brain's capacity for plasticity, right? And building cognitive reserve so that as we age, we feel the impact less. Again, I was just so inspired to hear him say that because, again, he could just kick back and be like, okay, I'm good. And instead, you know, for our episode, he learned the drums and played with Ed Shearren in front the 70,000 people. So we don't have to do that version. I'm not doing that version. My smaller

commitment to introduce a little bit of change into my life was re-picking up learning Mandarin. So my husband's Chinese-American and his relatives don't speak English. And I took a brief hiatus, namely three and a half years while I wrote this book where I stopped taking those lessons and I'm now committing to starting again in 2026. Well, Maia, I'm so happy that you took that brief hiatus and put together this. amazing book, the other side of change, as I said. When you pick up this book today, you're not picking up just a book, you're picking up interviews, research, hundreds and thousands of hours of other people's stories, lived experience, ups and downs, challenges, breakthroughs, discomfort,

and you get to invite that all into your life. And as someone who grew up as an avid reader of nonfiction and true stories, I think what Myers, put together in this incredible book is an invitation to all of us to study the lives of people just like us who have walked the path of challenges that we either have in our life right now or may have in the future and gain probably the most important skill humans could potentially ever develop which is dealing with change there's probably no if there's one skill you dedicate 2026 to it should probably be dealing with change There is no more important skill, not Mandarin, sorry.

Not anything else. It's dealing with change. And so this book is dedicated to that. Maya's dedicated three and a half years and the people that are in the book have spent decades living it through. Oh my gosh, totally. And so from the bottom of my heart, I hope you'll grab a copy. Maya, I'm so proud of you and grateful for just how you walk through life.

And even just your expertise and all the answers you gave today was just second to none. It was unbelievable to learn from you. and listen to you. I'm always humbled when I'm around you. Oh, thank you so much. And I'm so grateful that you let me support you. I'm going to let everyone ask you all their amazing questions now that I'm sure they're dying to ask you. And thank you again for letting me be a part of this. Give it up for my everyone. Thank you.

If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Ayman on how to change your life by changing your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over 100 murderers. And their brains are very damaged. I'm Bowen-Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Quartina 2020-2016 winner Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

Hi, Bob, hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt, hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to two guys, five rings on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. A new year doesn't ask us to become someone new.

It invites us back home to ourselves. I'm Mike Delarocha, a host of sacred lessons, a space for men to pause, reflect, and heal. This year, we're talking honestly about mental health, relationships, and the power. patterns were ready to release. If you're looking for clarity, connection, and healthier ways to show up in your life, Sacred Lessons is here for you. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delaroach on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable? Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prins. Music is Therapy. A new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life. money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year.

Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.