On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Michael Rubin: The One Mindset Shift You Need to Set Better Goals & See Patterns Before Your Competition

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Do you want to set better Goals?  Do you want to see patterns before your competition?  Jay sits down with the CEO of Fanatics, Michael Rubin. Fanatics is a global digital sports platform that is reimagining the fan experience across many different businesses.  Michael Rubin is a noted entrepreneur, philanthropist, and social justice advocate who has built several multibillion-dollar direct-to-consumer companies. Driven by a deep passion for business and a life-long love of sports, As growth is constant and never ending, Michael shares the value in learning from those you admire, the biggest mistake many make when building a brand and the undeniable connection between financial success and loving what you do every day. Michael shares secrets to his mindset of continuous learning and discovers the role of pattern recognition in achieving business success. Michael shares his tips for finding incredible talent and the importance of routines for productivity, learning how to define your worth, turning negatives into positives, and setting billion-dollar goals. In this interview, you will learn: How to be a successful entrepreneur How to change your mindset when building a business How to overcome challenges and naysayers How to be financially independent  How to spot patterns in business  This episode isn't just about business—it's about family and finding what truly matters to you. It's about building empires but creating a life you love. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 01:03 Introduction  02:50 Pursue Your Passion for Entrepreneurship 05:05 Why Learn From the People You Admire 06:42 Evolution of Entrepreneurship 08:04 A Peek into the Trading Card Business 12:16 The Biggest Mistake when Building a Brand 14:45 Financial Success is Loving What You Do Everyday 16:17 You Don’t Stop Learning 17:32 The Role of Pattern Recognition in Business Success 19:01 The Quest for Incredible Talent 23:42 Routines to Help with Productivity 25:24 Can You Define Your Worth? 29:01 The Positive Impact of Turning Negative into Positive 34:01 The Billion Dollar Goal 35:23 Family Life in the Midst of Success 35:57 Finding Balance Between Career and Family 38:22 How to Prioritize What Matter the Most 42:23 Conclusion with Michael Rubin Episode Resources: Michael Rubin | Instagram Michael Rubin | Twitter Michael Rubin | TikTok Fanatics Reform Alliance Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/+See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Listen to Come Back Stories. I'm Darren Waller. You might know me as a titan for the New York Giants, or some of you might know me from my story of struggling with and beating addiction to become a pro-walt titan. With me, I have my friend and co-host Donnie Starkens, who is a yoga instructor and a personal development coach. Catch us every week on Come Back Stories, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Womor Madraman, executive producer of the new podcast, Day My Avalita First. Each week, the incredible Viko Ortiz and fabulous Avalita Lillana Montenegra will play

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every day. Right now, listeners of on-purpose get 40% off a subscription to calm premium at calm.com forward slash J. That's C-A-L-M.com forward slash J-A-Y for 40% off. Calm your mind, change your life. I don't give a f*** about my network. Some of you people tell me I've got this great idea, but I don't want to hear about but. Like, let's go for it. got this great idea, but I don't want to hear about butt. Like, let's go for it.

Hard to be an entrepreneur is to have the courage to fail. If you're afraid to fail, you ain't going to do shit. The Global Sports Company fanatics, you're out of it? Yeah, yeah. Founder and CEO. Michael Rubin! Welcome back, sir. I've seen death in its eyes.

I've almost gone bankrupt multiple times. There are so many things that I should not have succeeded at, but I have, because I won't quit. If you set goals that are easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you want to fail. Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community, to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much

for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best selling author in the post. The number one health and wellness podcast. The purpose of Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose. The number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now you know that my goal here and intention is to talk to people from different backgrounds, different walks of life, people who've achieved impact in their own life and are having an impact around and across the world, people who are motivated to do better,

be better and give back. And today's guest is someone who's doing exactly that, probably not as fast as he would like. I've just learned as well. I'm talking about the one and only Michael Rubin, an entrepreneur, philanthropist and social justice advocate. Michael has built several multi-billion dollar direct to consumer companies. Michael CEO of Fanatics, a global digital sports platform that is reimagining the fan experience across many different businesses. Michael is an advocate for criminal justice reform and the co-chair of Reform Alliance, an organization that includes some of the biggest names in sports, business, and culture that's dedicated to advancing criminal justice reform and eradicating antiquated probation laws

that perpetuate injustice in the United States. Michael was named Sports Business Journal Executive of the year in 2022, and has also been named to the Bleacher Report Power 50 list of most influential people in sports. Welcome to on purpose, Michael Rubin. I'm happy to be here. I've watched what you've done and my what you do,

and you've got such an incredible following and just YouTube respect for you. Well, thank you. The feeling is very mutual. It's been amazing watching you from afar, and I've always been fascinated and drawn to people who've built incredible businesses and then used their platform for impact,

because growing up, I didn't see a lot of that. Growing up, I either saw people build businesses or have an impact. And so when I see people doing the same, it's exactly the values I try and live by, and I love watching it. So thank you for going down that line. But let's dive straight in.

I wanted to ask you, Michael, what was, you know, you're such a successful business person. What was your first ever job that you ever had in life? So for me, I think a lot of people know the story. I was a terrible student. You know, barely made it at high school, went to college for less than a semester.

As bad as a student, I was honestly a worst athlete. I wasn't coordinated. I wasn't a good athlete. The one thing I was always good at was working. I love business from the time I was a kid. Everything I remember about being young was working. My first job was that I can remember is probably eight years old. I probably had like five different side hustles.

I was selling trading cards. You know, by the way, not to my friends, but to my friends parents, because they had the money. I was when it would snow and fill it off. We were, I grew up, I would get five kids to do the snow shovel and I would go door to door and actually sell the snow shovel.

And I was selling vegetable seeds door to door. I was making stationary in the Apple II Plus and selling it. I was just like, I was the raw entrepreneur. Like, it's what I was good at. It's what I like doing. And so, I had so many different jobs as an eight year old. But I mean, that's like, when people say, you Like, it's what I was good at, what I like doing. And so I had so many different jobs as an eight year old. But I mean, that's like, when people say, you know,

how long you've been out of it, it's crazy. 43 years, I've been doing this since I've been eight years old. Wow. And when you were doing that, was there any inspiration? Was it just you wanted money? What did you want to buy? What were you doing with that? Like, what excited you about?

I don't think for me, even at eight years old, it was ever about money or wanting to buy things I think it was always about doing what you're good at and for me Knowing that I wasn't good. I had a lot of learning challenges I mean as a kid like I had every you know person to try to hum with all the things I sucked at whether it was Athletically or you know, it was just like I just I wasn't good at sports. I wasn't good at school But business was good at so I just always gravitate to that. I think that's a good thing.

You should always forget how to do things that you love. You should forget how to do things that you're good at and kind of double down on that. So that's always been my whole life. How did you know that at eight? Because I feel like most eight year olds today obviously playing video games, back then they were probably watching TV.

Maybe they were out riding a bike. How did you know that you were good at this? And I think it's something for me I was born with. I was born with that entrepreneur hustle. I think I came out of a bike. Like how did you know that you were good at this? And I think it's something for me. I was born with like I was born with that entrepreneur hustle. I think I came out of the womb. Like just, you know, wanting to be an entrepreneur, like just loving the hustle. And you know, to me, you know, I've been at this a long time. I work harder than ever work today. I love it. It's an honor to do. It's fun. It's an opportunity. Like I'm never tired. I'm never worn out. Like I'm just always I just want to go. Yeah. Can it be learned? Can you teach people to hustle and grind

and develop that mindset, or is it born with as you are? So, I think I was definitely born with it. That said, I do think, you know, for me, the way I learned is by being a sponge from people. So, I'm always picking things up from different people. Like, if you just look at the diversity of people I have around me, like I'm always taking so much learnings from them to, you know, be better in what I do.

And I try to give those back. So yeah, I think you definitely learn a lot of this stuff. Just find people, you respect, find people that you admire, find people that you wanna be like, and then take the good from them. And by the way, figure out what they do that you don't like and ignore that. Like I see good and bad in each person.

I try to take the good and learn from the bad and same thing with me. I've got lots of bad habits, I mean. Like I'm myself, that's right. That's all I ask for. That's all I ask for. There is no judgment here. There's no it's a same space. I just want people to be the authentic selves. And so, so please continue to be yourself. And what's so what I love that idea of learning from people being a human sponge. What's the most recent or most memorable thing you think you took away from someone a conversation a moment, something you read or heard or learned? Was there anything that kind of stuck with you?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, look, I'm in LA for the week. I'm doing six to 10 meetings a day in my house and, you know, two of the people I met with in the last few days have been through some real challenges and just watching the challenges that they've been through. I'm like, okay, I need to be that much more careful about how I conduct myself and everything that I do. So to me, I'm always taking learnings away from people. I think if you're not, you have no chance of getting better

what you do, I mean, life is no different than sports. You just gotta keep getting better at your sport. And so to me, I keep working at everything I do. What do you think? Obviously now, when you started 43 years ago, I eight years old, entrepreneurship wasn't as touted as this incredible. It wasn't touted.

It was actually weird. Like to be clear, like I was a nerd. Like that I loved business. Like entrepreneurialism came cool really around technology. Like I don't think it became cool till, almost from my perspective, everything was the birth of the dot com era.

You know, kind of late 90s is when entrepreneur listen became cool. I think before that was kind of nerdy and weird. So I was definitely born before it all. Yeah, and I'd say even after the financial crisis in like 2007, eight, like that recession, which is because I grew up in the era where we still aspire to be investment bankers or consultants.

So when I was at college or when I was growing up that was seen if you were into business, my goal was to go into that world because that's what I aspired for. Whereas I think the generation off to me and the one off to me, they were like, I'm not going to go work for someone I want to build something on my own. I think that's amazing. For me, I love one of the things that I'm fortunate to do is really, I think in a lot of ways, you know, encourage entrepreneurialism. And, you know, one of our biggest businesses, the collectibles business, which is trading cards in my rebellion,

that's all about entrepreneurs. There's so many entrepreneurs in that business. It's probably the business in a lot of ways that I actually really, to all three of our businesses, but it's the business that's maybe the most relatable for me because I grew up selling trading cards, to date your own, but also it's all about entrepreneurialism.

Talked to me through that business, because so I remember, so back in London, obviously, where I grew up, I collected football stickers, right? Soccer stickers. So that's what we have. We'd have the big, you'd have the spread with all the Premier League clubs, and you'd collect the little stickers,

and that was a big part of collectibles. How is that industry evolved as technology's grown, or has it stayed the same where people still collecting cards and like top trumps and things like that? Yeah, well, I'll say we got into the business about three years ago in a really significant way. And today we own tops, which is the kind of pre-eminent brand

and trading cards. I'd say that, you know, until our arrival in the industry little less than three years ago, I said there hadn't been, you know, tremendous amount of innovation. There hadn't been a tremendous amount of marketing. You know, we kind of looked at the business and said, wow, like this is such an incredible collector base,

such an incredible fan base. Yet it hasn't changed for like decades here. And you go to the big trading cart show where there's more than 100,000 people that come to Chicago this past summer, it's called the National Trading Cart Show. Yeah, it looks like something from 20, 30, 40 years ago. So for us, that just meant opportunity,

meant if you actually make innovative products. You actually really market these products. You build a better consumer experience and bring people forward in 2023, like what an opportunity. So for me, like, we do that in all of our business. Like I love like we love finding great opportunities, big challenges and kind of being unrelentient about going to have to room. Yeah. How has that changed? How is that practically changed? Like a people still buying cards and trading?

Yeah, it's a card to the biggest part of the business. Yeah, a lot of ways, very simple little art. But I can tell you, like, just as one quick example, this year, our team came in and actually to see you over our business, like, my hand said, hey, I got a great idea. Every time a player debuts for the first time, I want to put a patch on their jersey,

and then as soon as they get down the game, I want to put a patch on, I'll put it in a one-on-one trading card. Oh, that's it. the card from the first, so think about for us, you know, maybe I grew up in the Michael Jordan era. Had I had, you know, a Michael Jordan, yeah, if I had Michael Jordan

or Cobes first one-on-one cards. Yeah, that could be the most valuable keepsake that I could ever have. And so, you know, that innovation, like for us, it was really simple. Like, yeah, why would you not wanna put a patch on so much jerseys, you stick it into a card and make this a one-on-one card? But no one did that until we ever have. And so, that innovation, for us, it was really simple. Like, yeah, why would you not want to put a patch on so much jersey sticking into a card and make this a one-on-one card? But no one did that until we created it.

And by the way, it's already live. We came up with this past December. It was live in April with all baseball players. It's gonna be three to four hundred baseball players debut this year, with this debut patch that we put into a one-on-one card. So that's just like one of dozens of examples of innovations. Because you have to be aggressive.

We have to be great after-penerous. We have to push whatever we do. Yeah, now what I love about that though, for everyone who's listening is, I think we're stuck in this world now that believes that all innovation has to be digital or technological or virtual or some sort of, you know, AI, whereas this is like the most tangible, physical change,

but it's still so valuable because it's what people want. Look, we're three business there. First business where we started is what we call FNAX Commerce. That's our merchandise business. We own Lids, the hat retailer. We own Mitchell Ness. We own Fanatics, which operates obviously all of the different league.

NFL shop, then B.A Store. We sell more than $6 billion of mostly fan, apparel, and, okay, but about, you know, more than a hundred million units of merchandise a year, that's a very physical business, okay. But AI is helping us to do things more effectively. In the collectibles business, AI is going to help us to be more effective. And then our third business is the online sports pet and eye gaming business. So, you know, for me, we still do a lot of physical things, but there's so many things in the digital world that help us to be better.

Yeah, no, but I love that collaboration and thinking about it that way, because sometimes the greatest value to someone is a physical change, but you're learning that through the AI. I still wanna wear my Kobe jersey. Yeah, exactly. I want my bron card. Yeah, that's the same thing.

I'm still buying, I support Manchester United. That's my soccer team, and I'm still buying, you know, soccer jerseys every single year. Well, we appreciate that, because that's a fanatic side. That's an extra. Even though I absolutely, even though we absolutely suck right now.

But it's, you know. But that's what's been sports fans about. Sometimes you're gonna have the great years and you're getting those championships. And other times you're gonna suck and you gotta stay with it. And you think that's the only thing I feel the pain. I'm a real fan now.

I grew up as a glory hunter because we just won everything. And now I'm going through real fandom of 10 years. More of a test, you know, we're gonna see what you're made of. You really committed to Man United here. Yeah, that's, that's, I'm being tested right now. I'm being tested. Perfect.

But we were talking about people not being entrepreneurship, not being touted when you started. When you look at it today, now it's become the cool, sexy, interesting, fascinating thing for people to want to try. It's not necessarily things people are good at. Like you said, you were, it's not necessarily a skill that we honor or give it

the kudos that it deserves. What are the mistakes people are making when they think about being an entrepreneur today? Well, first of all, entrepreneurialism isn't for everybody, but if you think it's for yourself, you better go out there and try it, put your best foot forward. You know, for me, look, the biggest mistakes I see people make in building a business

are kind of a couple common themes. One is, first you have, like, are you even gonna take the app back? So many people tell me, I've got this great idea, but, like, I don't wanna hear about but. Like, let's go for it. Let's, if you have an idea you wanna do something, you know, I love the story.

You were just telling me before you went on here that you came over here and, you know, you worked one place for six months, then you're like, I want to go out and do this. You went out and did it. Like part of being an entrepreneur is to have the courage to fail. Like you just have to go out there and try it. And by the way, when you fail, which many times you will, you don't learn from that failure, you're going to grow from that failure.

You think that you talked about Kobe being your favorite athlete. Well, guess what? How many times did he fail? And then he got better and he pushed through it. And so that's what being an entrepreneur is. So from my perspective, it's really all about first and foremost, if you have something you wanna do, if you believe in it, go for it.

Don't worry about whether you succeed or not. Go out and take the swing. And if, guess what? If you strike out, if you fail, just go back again. And I know some people gonna say, oh, well, he's really successful now. So it's easy to say. But I gotta tell you something,

I've seen death in his eyes. You know, I've almost gone bankrupt multiple times. You know, I've had epic failures, and every one of those led me to be better in what I do. So that's my first thing. Second thing I'd say is, you need great people around you to succeed.

Like whether it's great people you're learning from that you want to be a sponge from, whether it's you build a great team to do what you do. Like, I know for fanatics we have 18,000 people that get up and go to bed obsessed with how do we improve the fan experience each day. But like, I collect and work with the best people in the planet.

If you don't work with great people, you will fail. Like, you can't win a championship. If you don't have great talent, but that talent also needs to work together. And then the last thing, and this will sound corny, but like, have fun in what you do. Like, I love what I do. I have the greatest, you know, job in the planet.

I get to wake up, you know, work 18 hours a day, go to bed thinking about, you know, what's next? I dream about my work nearly every day. Like, I'm having work dreams all the time because I'm obsessed with what I'm doing. It's like, it's fun. It's like, I should pinch myself. It's so awesome what I get to do. Listen to comeback stories.

I'm Darren Waller. You may know me best as a titan for the New York Giants. You may also know me for my story of overcoming addiction and alcoholism. You may have heard a few of my tracks as an artist or producer. And you may have seen the work that I've done through my foundation. And you may know my friend and co-host, Donnie Starkens as well. He's a mindfulness teacher, a yoga instructor, a life coach, a man fully invested in seeing people reach their fullest potential. And we've come to form this platform of comeback stories to really highlight not only our own adversity, but adversity in the lives of well-known guests

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or poor or famous or homeless, if you are raised in misery systems, it's perpetual. Kevin is the founder of the nonprofit organization, SixDegrees.org. Now he's meeting with like-minded actors who share a passion for change, like Mark Reffelow. You know, I found myself moving up state in the middle of this fracking fight and I'm trying to raise kids there and my neighbors like willing to poison my water. These conversations between Kevin and activist Matthew McConaughey will have you ready to lean in, learn, and inspire to act. They're all in the wrong track, help get on the right track.

If they're on the right track, let's help them double down on that and see the opportunities stay on the right track for success in the future. Listen to six degrees with Kevin Bacon on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, absolutely.

No, I love hearing that. And I think, you know what's fascinating to me as well with being an entrepreneur, you know, my story was very different to finding my way into entrepreneurship. I grew up thinking I had to have a steady job because that's how I was raised by good Indian immigrant parents who made me academically astute.

And so I was a straight A student, did first class at uni, like I was always good at that. And then I got into a job afterwards, after my own detour. And when I finally got into a job, I was just like, this doesn't feel right. Like this doesn't feel like this is gonna use my skills to the best of my ability.

This doesn't feel like I'm gonna propel and do well and become my best version of myself. It wasn't about money or what I thought I could win at. It was, I just don't feel this is gonna complete me or make me feel like I'm winning in the way that I can. Listen, the most important thing is enjoying what you do every day. And I'm a type of thing. I know a lot of people that have been really successful financially and they're miserable.

You know what? They don't love what they do every day. They're not happy. Like for me, I don't think about financial success. I think about like just loving what I'm doing now. Financial success can tell you are you winning or losing? That's your report card. That's the scoreboard, right? Good financial results means you're winning.

But if financial results means you're not winning in the current moment. But for me, like, I just want to love what I do every day. I, I, I couldn't agree with you more. I want to wake up and do what I love every day, which is why I do this because I get to sit down with fascinating people, pick people's minds. And then we each learn from each other.

Absolutely. Absolutely. About my guarantee, I'll learn, I'll leave here today, having picked up some things from you, and you'll leave from here. Oh, I'm definitely gonna switch. Yeah, that's the way it works. That's the way we should all be students of each other. Yeah, absolutely.

Who's the randomest person you've learned from? I wonder, who's the most curious random intriguing person that we wouldn't expect for you to learn from, like, not like a business mogul or someone like that, but someone you're like, you know what, that person, I didn't expect to learn from them but I did is there someone like that comes to mind I could give you a thousand examples I mean I could tell you when I used to be part of the ownership group of the Philadelphia Sixers I'd walk through the arena and I would ask lots of arena workers what's going on here today you know what's working what's not working like you

know you pick things from everybody I could I could walk through the street look at what someone's wearing say hey, where'd you buy that? Is that a good do you like that you not like that like I'm always asking questions So you know for me, I mean that's pretty random for you to just walk up in the street and somebody you know Where'd you buy that why'd you buy it? She love that what so I'm always picking things up I'm watching the way trends are changing with people I'm probably the most unique thing about me is the diversity friends that I have So I'm always picking things up. I'm watching the way trends are changing with people. Probably the most unique thing about me is the diversity of friends that I have. And I'm learning from the people around me every single day.

Yeah, I think that's the only way you understand the pulse of human behavior, right? It's like asking questions, watching patterns. I think pattern watching is an ability, whether it's an algorithm, whether it's the stock market, whether it's crypto, whatever it is for people, watching patterns is such an unbelievable skill. Would you say that's a skill that you've honed

and developed and built? Well, I think it's a really important skill in business because I think it's very predictive of the future. Okay, so the reality is when someone comes in, and I'm interviewing a top executive for a role in one of our businesses, and they could seem great. And then I'm gonna go go out and I'm never going to ask anybody for reference ever. I've never asked somebody, Hey, can you tell me who to call it? Like that's the you

ask me for reference on my stuff. I call each of those people and say, Hey, I gave you a reference. Make sure you say great things about me. Right. So the reality is I'll interview somebody. The first thing I do is if I like them as soon as they leave, I go out and I start calling people that I knew we had in common to recognize patterns. Okay, because to me, 50% of the interview and 50% is what I learned behind the scenes. And that's probably the more important 50% because someone can blow me away. And then, you know, you'll find out one minute, that person sucks, that person,

people don't like working with them. Or you can find out that person was a little bit understated but they're obese, you got a huge followership. They're super smart. They've got an unrelentive work ethic. So to me, pattern recognition is everything I use in everything that I do. By the way, I use pattern recognition when I go play

blackjack with my friends. There's three types of cards you're going to get. Cardgery, you're either streaking hot, you're streaking cold, or you're kind of in between. And when you're cold, you should not do what sometimes I'll do if I'm misbehaved, which is be aggressive. When you're cold, because you got're kind of in between. And, you know, when you're cold, you should not do what sometimes I'll do if I'm misbehaved, which is be aggressive. When you're cold, because you got a pattern of going on.

So you got to recognize patterns, whatever you do. I find it fascinating how super powerful entrepreneurs hire and fire and recruit and, you know, reward and retain people. What have you found when you're interviewing someone, I feel like you must have interviewed so many people over the years for huge positions, small positions in the beginning. What are you looking for and how are you finding out apart from the second part, which I love

calling out people that you have in common? What are you asking? What are you looking for and how are you making sure you find it in that very date-like format? So let me say first of all, and this will, I think, shock you. I still probably spend 10 to 20% of a 70 to 90 hour work week interviewing people, okay? So I am a beast on finding great talent within our companies, because to me, you can't win without great talent.

So it is probably the thing, or one of the things that I spend the most time on is the quest for incredible talent. I'm looking for, first, does someone have the subject matter expertise and the intellect to be successful in what we want them to do? And then two, do they have the leadership skills?

Because generally, I'm interviewing people that either are gonna work for me or someone who's gonna work for someone who I work with. So let's say the top 50 to 100 people within our 18,000 people. So I'm looking for people that are gonna be real leaders that are gonna share the same values that we share. I'm looking for people that can be with us

for a long period of time. I don't want people that wanna come in and be with us for three years. I want people that wanna come, like I like people that wanna be with us and build their careers with us for a long period of time. I don't want people to want to come in and be with us for three years. I want people to want to come, I like people want to be with us and build their careers with us for maybe their entire life. We want people that are just gonna be, and also people that are gonna, they're gonna figure out how to win.

They're gonna put it on the shoulders and they're gonna be unrelenting. That's my personal, there are so many things that I should not have succeeded at, but I have, because I won't quit. Okay? And so I think those are some of the things that I just rambled to you that I care about. No, no? And so I think those are some of the things that just rambled you that I care about.

No, no, no, I love those. And I guess the thing about not quitting is really interesting, right? Because you've got this unrelenting, you can see it in the way you speak in your eyes. Like, I've just spent a few moments with you. We've never met before today. And I can fully see that it is just

at the core of who you are. And you probably find that you can push people and they may not be able to go as far every time because they may not have that same energy in them. So how have you found that balance of like seeing someone who you know has the potential, you know they have the skills. But it's almost like they're like Michael, I already went seven times and you're like, dude, we're going to go 17 because I know at 17, we're gonna get there. Yeah, I think the people that are in my real inner circle, you know, I have six key executives that I work with day

and day out, the people that run my three businesses, the online sports betting and I gaming business, the commerce business which is merchandise, the collectibles business which is trading cards in my mobility, these businesses and then my three corporate executives, like they have that same mentality.

I won't want to work with anyone that didn't have that mentality of like, you know, because they're saying the culture for the entire 18,000, you know, employees at fanatics. And so to me, people don't share our core values. You know, they don't believe in what we believe in. This probably not going to be a bright fit. They could be a great human being, a great individual, just not be right for us. Do you ever take a break?

Have you ever taken a break? To me, I don't understand work life balance. It's just, it's not who I am. So I'm not gonna apologize for it. And I know I sound like, people get to listen to say, like this guy's a little bit deranged. But I am who I am. I know like, I know what I'm good at.

And I know what I like doing. I mean, it may shock you, but I fully relate to it. Like, to me, it's, I, you know, I think people, I appreciate them trying to get more people to help, you know. Trying to get more people to not look at me like I'm crazy. And I would agree that I feel exactly the same way. Like, this week, and this is my average normal week, I have morning hikes where I'm out with people

that I work with, but I love them. And I enjoy their company. They're not people I have to work with. They're people I enjoy working with. So I'm having a people that I work with, but I love them. And I enjoy their company. They're not people I have to work with. They're people I enjoy working with. So I'm having a hike meeting in the morning, which is, you know, 7.30 a.m. Then I'm at work whether I'm doing this or whatever I'm up to with them recording meditations.

So sometimes I'm alone in a studio and sometimes I'm with people. And then I have meetings. And then I've been having dinner meetings too. And I love it. I wouldn't have it any other way. I've had the best interactions. I'm getting to know the best people.

I know their families. I know they're getting to know their kids, their spouses, whatever it is. And to me, it's like, this is what I want life to be. I actually don't look at life as work and life. Like I don't have that disconnect. And I actually think that when you look at life as a disconnect, that's when you think you're taking away from the other.

And that's what makes me do what you love to do. Yeah. It almost breaks those barriers down. Totally, yeah. So I'm what makes me do what you love to do. Yeah. It almost breaks those barriers down. Totally, yeah. So I'm actually more on your side than people may think. I'm a big fan of having my daily routines and habits that make me the best version of myself. Like obviously meditation, working out,

there are certain non-negotiables. Are there things in your day that you do, that are your routines that may not be those things, but things that you're like, you know, this one thing that I do per day, this makes me feel great. It's probably centered around work, if I'm gonna be out of it.

That's cool, yeah. It's with you, I mean, I was always pleasantly plump until my journal came out. So now that my journals came out, and I've gone from 210 to 160, I'd say working out is more important to me. You know, when you're 210, it's harder to work out when you're 160's, much easier to work out.

So you live here in the top of Ranyan, and you know, for me, you know, kind of hiking in tenants harder to work out when you're 160's, much easier to work out. So you live here in the top of Runya, and you know, for me, you know, kind of hiking to the top of Runya, you know, I've done that once already this week. I'm gonna do it again tomorrow. I like I love doing it. Like it's a blast for me. Working out is actually something that is becoming good for me

because it's the one thing that lets me get a little bit of a mental break. Putting my phone down sometimes, I can be so addicted to my phone. It's just like, I just need, like, sometimes a dinner when, you know, my family has dinner, I just like put my phone down for 20 minutes. That's a good thing.

So I'd say things that have helped me of late have been, you know, getting those three to four workouts in per week because it does give me some mental clarity. And I'd say putting my phone down 20 or 30 minutes a day, when I'm just not gonna look at it and say, okay, like give me some mental clarity. I'd say putting my phone down 20 or 30 minutes a day, when I'm just not gonna look and say, okay, like give me a mental break because I think you could just become so obsessed

that it's bad for you and then you become less effective. Yeah. Probably the biggest routine I have of us say, like let's keep it real. It's gonna be the people that I work close with, it's talking to them all the time. I always just like peel the lyrus back on what we're doing. So like any of my top leaders, I'm on the close with, it's talking to them all the time. I always just like peel the layers back on what we're doing. So like any of my top leaders, I'm on the phone with,

I'm Zoom's with, meeting with, and person all the time, because that's the way we're just like building the best business. Yeah, absolutely. And I do believe that it's what it takes for the level of success that you've achieved. I wonder, you know, if you Google your net worth, it says 11 billion, it could be more probably is,

how do you define how much you're worth? I don't. I'll tell you a story, I probably shouldn't say, God, this is blowing somebody up, I shouldn't blow up. Like Forbes reached out and they said, Hey, we want to put you on the cover of Forbes for the Forbes 400. I'm like, no, I don't want to be known for my net worth.

I want to be known for building a great company. By the way, there are so many things where a company that we suck at, that we need to be better at. Like, I want to be, like, the way I look at it is I'm a big startup and I want to make sure that I'm always fighting to be better in everything we do and in everything we do, I want to build what we make better for the fan and we have so much to do to accomplish that. So, I don't want to be known about money, I don't want to be known, I want to be known about making the world a better

place for making my company better. There's honestly, you know, the two things I'm maniacally focused on. Yeah. I believe it. I believe it. I genuinely do. And I think it's, like, I'm not in a competition for like totally. It's irrelevant. Like, my life is not changing financially based on anything that happens going forward. You know, I'm fortunate that I'm in a nice position today. So like, to me, the thing that gets me most exciting is winning in business because that's my sport. That's what I'm good at. And so I look at each business and I look at not all the things we do right, I look at

all the things we do wrong and all the things we can be better at. And so I'm always saying, how can we improve in everything we do? Because guess what? There are a lot of things we need to be a lot better at. And that's what I'm focused on. And then, you know, up front you talked about kind of giving back is interesting. I never, ever cared about making a difference in the world. And so I had an event in, in 2017 that did change my perspective.

Before that, I was just always right. Check. You came and said, Hey, I'm doing this. Hey, let me give you a check to shut you up as quickly as I could because I didn't care. I just want to focus on work. And then my eyes got open, which is what people say, like, Hey, should I be behind this?

I said, do what's authentic, do what's real. And for me, that's kind of how my life is kind of evolved. Yeah, and why was it, I believe it was me, middle-interested criminal justice? Well, I mean, everyone knows the story at this point. You know, me, God, you know, sent it prison for two to four years for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle.

He, the smartest thing he did for both of us was say, hey, can you come to court with me that day? I want you to see what happens when a black person goes to court. I didn't like even understand what he was saying. And then, you know, I want to get sent to prison for two to four years for not committing a crime for popping wheelie on a motorcycle. Like that was the most uncomfortable thing that's ever happened to my body. Because it was like, I'm used to being in control, I'm a strong business leader. I'm used to leading it now.

I had a judge who sent him a prison for two to four years for not committing a crime for a puppet of wheel and a motorcycle. And it was the most out-of-body experience I ever had. And so once he ultimately got out of prison and we started the reform alliance, for me, I learned a really valuable lesson because a lot of people told me,

don't get involved with this, don't get involved with him, you're gonna hurt your business, you're gonna hurt the sixers. And I just went with my instincts, which is like this is my brother, and like he needs help him, by the way, Jay Z and Deseret Perez from Rock Nation,

stepped up in a huge way, like it was kind of us collectively. But like, I've had a couple experiences in the last four or five years, where we've done things where people told us we'd be bad for business, bad for us, and we didn't care we do what we thought was the right thing And you always get paid back in karma like that is something I've learned in the last five years

Probably the biggest thing I've learned in the last five years You know don't worry about what people tell you is gonna be the right act and you do what you think is right if you do It's right, you know it generally works out. Yeah, no, and I'm glad you repeat that story They may be some of our audience who may or may not be aware so thank you for sharing that But and I wanted them to hear it from you because it is, it's so interesting. When something becomes so personal, when it happens to someone that's so close to you, the issue almost becomes so much more relatable and easy to access. For you, what have been some of the most, like I loved what you said, like the moment you walked in here, I was telling you how much

I've appreciated the impact work you're doing. And you're like, we're not doing it fast enough or not there's more to do, you know, and I love that, like that's exactly the energy you need to have. So walk me through the winds that have been there that have shown you that you're doing the right thing and then walk me through one of the issues that you're still trying to solve and figure out. Something about Mary Poppins? Something about Mary Poppins. Exactly.

Oh man, This is fun. I'm AJ Jacobs and I am an author and a journalist and I tend to get obsessed with stuff. And my current obsession is Puzzles. And that has given birth to my new podcast, The Puzzler Dressing. Dressing. Oh, French dressing.

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The celebrations that dances the science, poetry, laughter, and music of joy. Don't miss it. Joy with Craig Ferguson. Here it is, on the IHART Radio App Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, look, the interesting thing was when we got sent to prison in November 2017, just about everybody I knew said,

do not get involved in this. This is where we flag poorly in the sixers. This we flag poorly on fanatics, less people by tickets and they're going to see you helping a criminal. And so, Dizaree Perez from Rock Nation, myself, we spent a lot of the next six months working every day to get him out of prison. And once we got him out of prison, meek said to me, and I said to me, like, look, this is

destiny. You got sent to prison because you were the one annoying to help fix the system. And if you would have asked me before, November 12th, 2017, when he got And I would, if you would have asked me before, November 12th, 2017, when he got sent to prison, if you would have said to me, what do I care about from a charity perspective? It was writing checks to get people out of my office as quickly as possible.

I did not care about any issues. But what makes you always say to me, Michael, this is a normal day for black America. And so, you know, that he had been sent to prison for a technical probation violation. It was easy for us to say we have to change the probation and parole system. That's what we set out to do. The interesting thing was, when we finally decided to do this, which was, I guess, finally, when we did it immediately, I was trying to figure out how to come up

with a goal because to me, you have to come up with big, bold goals. And this speaks to entrepreneurialism and not taking a kind of charitable approach to things. I asked a friend of mine who I don't want to name, but someone I have huge respect for. I said, you know, how many people should we try to get out of probation for all? They said, well, how many people in the system? I said, four and a half million. They said, well, go with 10,000. That's a really safe number. I said, 10,000.

Let's go for a million. So we're in this less than five years. We've passed 17 bills in 11 states and Created a pathway for 700,000 people to get off a probation in parole who shouldn't be on it And by the way, um, there were 4.5 million people on probation in parole We started this 3.8 million people to what's proven this is really important to understand if you keep someone on probation or parole too long You and trap them in the criminal justice system And then what you do is you actually create a less safe outcome for neighborhoods and for

environments versus if people serve their time, have the appropriate amount of rehabilitation, you know, their on probation for the right amount of time, then they're going to go out, they're going to make, you know, a positive impact on the rights home. Meek had been on probation between the time served and time left 18 years. Now in California, where we're doing this today, the governor signed in one of the first bills that we did with Gavin Newsom, which was amazing, is a one-year cap on Mr. Meanor and a two-year cap on felonies. And that was like breakthrough legislation that we worked on together, you know, with many people to bring together to make that happen in the state of California, which one

of the best things we've done at the reform line. So my point is like, that's huge. We turned this negative into a positive. We then came up with a really bold goal that people thought we were nuts. When I told people, everyone looked at me like, I have seven heads,

but I'm like, what's the worst that happens? So we got 300,000 people, 400,000 people, I still think we won. I don't care. You want to say we failed, because we didn't get the million. And by the way, now we're going to surpass the million, I think. Wow, that's incredible.

And you're so right. Most of us, when we set a bold goal, whether it's to make an impact or whether it's in business, we're actually just worrying about what everyone will think if we don't hit that goal. So I'm going to give you a great example. So today at Fanatics, we've built a pretty big business in our commerce Business, which

is merchandise. That's where I started. That's where a lot of people know us from. By the way, we still have so much to do to be better, so many things to improve the consumer experience, to innovate more product. We're a leader in that business. The collectibles business, we're a real leader today. In the online sports band eye gaming business, we're just starting, okay?

We're going to be Fanatics Sportsbook just launched earlier this year. We'll be basically in just about every Legal state by the end of this year under the fanatic's brand with with one wallet. I woke up and our guys We talk about being number three like you know, hey, fandoms number one draft Kings number two. We're number three and You know, sorry, we aspire to be number three today. We're like number eight. We're just starting and I woke up about three weeks ago I called our CEO Mac King who's amazing. I said Matt like we got our goal needs to be number three today, we're like number eight, we're just starting. And I woke up about three weeks ago, and I called our CEO, Matt King, who's amazing. I said, Matt, like we got our goal needs to be number one. By the way, maybe we're accomplished, maybe we won't.

Maybe we're gonna be successful at all. Like the jury's out, we're invested in a billion and a half dollars to try to be the top player, okay? But like, I don't wanna play for number three. Number three is a loser. I wanna play for number one. And so many people are gonna say to me, so many people listen to this, would be like,

wait, you wanna be number one to fan doing and draft Kings in online sports by an eye gaming? I'm declaring right now. So first of all public says I want to be number one I have no idea whether I've any chance of that accomplishing but I can tell you what I'm not waking up to try to be number three That's a loser and that's what's got you here. So you feel convinced that that's what it was What was the do you remember the first big goal you ever set? I do. Yeah. In 2009, I made a goal. I said to all our team, I said that I want to build, we were $250 million in revenue

in 2010. I said, one day we could be a billion dollars in revenue. That division's $6 billion today. Okay. I said, one day we could be a billion dollars. Okay. Then four years later, we said, one day we could be a billion dollars, okay? Then four years later, we said one day we could be five billion dollars, okay? And we're only just trying to come up with goals for just like to try to measure, you know,

success or failure. But I love to come up with bold goals and I don't care whether I accomplish them or fail. I care about coming up with bold goals to work against and then making huge progress against them, whether I accomplish them or not. Yeah, the point is you're more likely to challenge yourself enough to come up with better strategies, more products, better customer service, like you actually just can improve drastically

towards that level. If you set goals that are easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you wanna fail to start with. If you come up with bold goals, and by, it's easier, look, I know people are gonna say, I'm an owner, it's easier to say that as an owner, okay?

And maybe sometimes you just need to set goals up that you say to yourself because you don't want to tell you boss that goal always, okay? Or you're talking about, here's the budgeting goal I'm giving you, but now let me tell you the real goal that I have, okay? And so, I like rallying people against big audacious, you know, hard-to-achieve goals

because I think you're just gonna accomplish more. Yeah, absolutely. How does this energy convert over to Michael's love life? Like how does this kinda, how does Michael in love change from Michael to his life? I mean, you have to ask Camille that. Yeah. I think what Camille would say,

she's incredibly supportive of what I do. She knows it's what I love doing. You know, she's the most incredible mother in the planet. We have, so I have a 17 year old daughter and then I have a three year old and one year old with Camille. You know, she puts as much energy. I put into work. She puts into being a mom. And I think that's what makes us great together. Would I say that, you know, I'm always the most available person? No. Does she want to, you know, kill me multiple times a week? Probably yes. But she also knows this

what makes me mean what I love to do. And, you know, she loves being the greatest mom. And then why don't we have a great relationship? But, you know, would you call my personal life or our personal life? Perfect definitely not because I work like an animal. No, of course not. Of course not. No You know, she loves being the greatest mom. And then why don't we have a great relationship? But you know, would you call my personal life or our personal life perfect? Definitely not, because I work like an animal. No, of course not. Of course not. No one has the perfect personal or professional life. But did you, the reason why I ask is,

you know, it's really interesting. I always feel like, you know, so much can be solved at the point of connection. What I mean by that is, I, you know, my wife's a busy person. I'm a busy person, but I've, you know, I was saying to some of my team the other day, I'm really grateful that my wife has never said to me

in the last 10 years that we've been together, you don't spend enough time with me. It's because she knows who I am, she understands how I work, she knows I make time, I am present when I'm there, but she gets me, like she really gets me, and she got me when we got together. Yes, I was very not successful when we met, but she gets me and she's seen that energy grow. And so she loves the time. And by the way, I don't say the same to her either. As you never hear from me, Leigh, you don't spend enough

time with me or you're not around. If she's busy and she has to move, did you know that when you met Camille, how did you set that up? How did that become real? How did you get to know you that well? Because I feel like for a lot of people, the way you work, the way I work, the way certain people work, it would be unbearable and it would be a deal breaker. But then it's really hard to also have an amazing life and build everything you want to build, right?

It's, so how did you, I'm just intrigued as to how you had that conversation early days. Yeah, I'm not sure if we had the conversation, it kind of just grew into what it is. I think the same thing for Camille or my older donor, Kylie, they would both say they wish that I were more available, more present, but they also respect and learn from my work ethic and what I do. And I think, you know, it kind of works itself out in the end,

but you know, different than you, I do here for both Camille and Kylie, you don't have enough time for me, you're not available enough. And sometimes that's a really good, probably like, okay, put your phone down and turn the ringer off for half an hour. You don't always need to grab every call. What my older daughter would always say to me, Kylie is like, Dad, it's always somebody important. I'm your oldest daughter and Camille would say to me You know, it's me like just let it go for a little bit

So they actually help me whatever little balance I have I think I get from Camille on Kylie I love to what you said like you know Sometimes they say I need more time, but they also respect me. How do you Reconcile that kind of dad guilt that could come with that or and a lot of I'm not a father yet But a lot of my friends who are now say it's so painful Watching your little lot of my friends who are, they'll say it's so painful watching your little girl, my friends who have little girls will say, it's so painful watching your little girl, say daddy, just stay home with me today, right? Like how do you reconcile? Like this is good for them to see me work hard and I know when to like put my phone down,

but how do you make sense with that? Yeah, well the good thing is my three year old and one year old have grown up with me like this. So, and so to Kylie, by the way, they've all seen that work. I think, look, Kylie, as everyone knows, my 17 year old is with me, you know, all the time. She travels with me all the time. She's actually on a plane right now. She's about to land here in a few hours. So, you know, she's with me a lot. She's got a great, you know, Kylie can be of a great relationship that they may have a support group, you know, together for the two of them against me. Every family is different. Every person is different.

Everyone needs to do what works for them. And I think I do it works for me and they do it works for them. And I think they appreciate it. I also know to be there when it really matters. And so for me, Kylie went through an experience earlier that they share and she called me and it had to do with college. She's like cursing me out. She's like, like, I need you to help me figure this out right now.

And it's about like, get you good. Cause Kylie is much smarter than me, but she's not like, you know, she goes to the tougher school and Philadelphia. And she like, she wanted like some help with certain things. And like, I had to call around and figure out how to do that and learn and put the layers back. And ultimately, I figured out together,

it's like, when it really matters, like, I'm always there. And I'm good at figuring out what matters and what doesn't. And so I think that could be a super par, I have which is how to prioritize. I am good at figuring out, when am I really needed? When do I need to lock in and focus? It could be lock in and focus on a really important business.

Do it, it could be lock in and focus on a really important moment for Camille or for Kylie. Yeah. What your daughters do for you, my sister does for me. She looks like, stop being Jay Shetty, just be my brother. It's like that feeling of, stop giving me that advice, just be my brother and get me a heart.

I get that from both of them all the time. But if I three-year-old, wrong me, I'm sure I'll be giving me that's like within a year or two. And it's the best feeling, right? It's such a beautiful feeling because you know someone loves you and wants you to just be there for them. It's getting those moments which you can really appreciate. So, you know, I try to get them when I can. Yeah, and Michael, that's what I'm trying to do on this podcast here, you know, I don't have a, I don't think there is an ideal way to live. I don't think there is a perfect way to approach your problems. I think that what I like to do is I like to introduce people. This is kind of my whole hypothesis in life. If I can introduce people to as many diverse people as possible

that have all in their own way found purpose, impact and success. Then people actually have a chance of saying, I like what they're saying, I'm going to run with that. Or actually, you know what, I never thought about it like that because I find when I was growing up, we were all exposed to the same set of people and the same set of ideas and it was so hard to break that. And it was only for me, obviously, which is my personal journey. When I'm at a monk at 18, I didn't know what monks were. I didn't care what monks were. I had no interest in anything

spiritual. If I had never met a monk, I would never have gone down the path of life I did. And so I'm always asking people, who's your monk? And for some people, their monk will be you. And what I mean by that is they're going to get introduced to you and go, yeah, that's how I want to live my life. That resonates with me. Does that make sense? It makes complete sense. I'm a huge believer in it. And I have, look, if you'd say what's the most unique thing about me, it's probably the diversification of the people around me.

And I think I built that because it's right for me, because I'm learning from all these people around me. And so I've got this person actually, a person who owns a local hobby shop, and he keeps sending me these really long text messages. And I actually keep me sending back a voice, and I just say, hey man, I actually appreciate your input. But I barely read. Like, I'm not that literate. Like, you're laughing. I'm dead serious. I haven't read a book since ninth grade. The last book I read was in ninth grade. I read The Swish, the story about the unauthorized story about Fully.

It's not the last time I read a book a book. So I'm not a good reader. I'm pretty dyslexic. So the way I learn is by quick conversations. You want me to read something, send me three lines, and I'm actually going to read it. You send me three paragraphs. I'm already tuned out before I start. So that's what I'm saying.

We all got to learn from each other, what works for each other, and that's what makes me me. Absolutely. Michael, you've been amazing. We end every episode with a final five. You'll like this. Each question has to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

So it goes aligned with what you just said. So Michael Ruben, these are your final five. Question one is, what is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received? Don't be afraid to fail. Because if you're afraid to fail, you're never gonna take the shot. Like, how do you want to be an entrepreneur? You're sitting there and you're trying to figure out,

like, should I do this or not? Like, you got to go for it. Second question. What is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever had or received? Do it for the money. All right. Question number three, what's something you're currently trying to learn maybe in business or in life, something you're working on? How to do what's best for the consumer in everything that we do. Like just complete consumer focus. I didn't grow up as a complete consumer person. So I think there's things if I look at parts of finance where we're not good enough, we haven't been good enough, I'd say it's in session with the consumer.

Yeah. That's what I always loved about. I still love it today. Like when I grew up, I remember the first time my parents took me to Disney World. And I was just like, everything about this place is like perfectly organized for me to have the best time of my life. Yeah. And it's insane how much detail

you can put into someone's experience. Yeah, I think we got our business model right. Everything I do has to be about the consumer. To win in a consumer business, it has to be about consumer first and everything you do. That's something that I've, that I'm really, it's the biggest thing I'm focused on right now.

Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful. All right, question number four. How would you define your current purpose with your impact work? Real change, like to make real change. Not like, like so many people who make impact work, they write, first of all, writing a check is easy.

Okay, if you have money writing a check is easy. Don't think because you give money a way that you're making a difference. Like go do the work, okay? But making real change, like measure the results, treat it like a business, not like a charity. Like, we don't want to run the reformer lines, like a charity, we're not like a business,

we're on business results. Beautiful, fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Come be president after 65. I want the president of the United States to be an animal from a work ethic perspective. I want them to be on their A game. I want to make sure that they're maniacal about the country, the way I'm maniacal about my business.

One law to go in place. Max, you can't be elected to become president after 65 years old. Michael Rubin, everyone, if you've been listening and watching make sure that you cut the clips for Tik Tok and Instagram that related to you insights That you loved share them. I love knowing what are the lessons you're taking away. What are you practicing? What are you implementing and putting into your life? I think everyone just got the best pet talk that they need for right now in their life This is gonna get you to those big goals listen Listen to this episode, share it with your friends, share it with your family.

I'm sure someone just needs a train to come run through their mind and break through all of the barriers that they've set up. I think Michael's that train, Michael, thank you so much. Or by the way, disagree with us. Tell me what you're not. Tell me what you're not. I love when you disagree with me, tell me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me, of course, if you disagree with us, you can tell us too. You'll do that anyway. I don't need to ask for that. Hey, thanks for having me, it was a blast. Thank you, Michael, it's such a blast. I appreciate you, man. Of course, if you disagree with us, you can tell us to. You can do that. Anyway, I don't need to ask for that. Thanks for having me, it was a blast. Thank you, Michael. Such a blast. I appreciate you, man.

And thank you for being so. What I appreciate about you is your clarity, your commitment to that clarity and that you're still open and available to learn. I think that curiosity. That's what I've seen. It's like complete clarity, complete commitment to who you are and then still being curious. That's a deadly combination. So thank you.

Well, sadly, I'm like, try to preach it and do it every day. Thank you, man. If you love this episode, you will love my interview with Kobe Bryant on how to be strategic and obsessive to find your purpose. Our children have become less imaginative about how to problem solve. Imparencing coaches have become more directive in trying to tell them how the

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