On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson: Break the Generational Patterns Holding You Back (How to Build Confidence, Responsibility, and Emotional Resilience)

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Can you remember the first time you felt truly in charge of your own decisions? What’s one thing you picked up from your family that you wish you could unlearn? In this heartfelt episode, Jay Shetty sits down with former First Lady Michelle Obama and her brother, coach and mentor Craig Robinson, for an intimate conversation centered around family, resilience, and the lasting impact of love and connection. Michelle and Craig reminisce about the powerful values instilled by their parents, a deep sense of independence and unwavering family loyalty. Even through financial struggles, their parents cultivated a home filled with trust and safety, making it clear that family would always be a source of strength. Memories of birthdays around the kitchen table, houses bustling with extended relatives, and the steady presence of grandparents and cousins all contributed to a lifelong sense of belonging and support that continues to influence their lives. As they journeyed into adulthood, both Michelle and Craig relied on therapy, genuine friendships, and a strong community to help them face life’s transitions, grief, and the many complexities of growing up. Michelle shares how seeking guidance and embracing self-reflection, especially during moments of change, has been central to her personal growth, demonstrating the value of openness, adaptability, and continuous learning throughout every stage of life. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Foster Family Unity During Tough Times How to Nurture Independence in Children How to Unlearn Limiting Beliefs from Your Upbringing How to Create Safe Spaces for Honest Conversations How to Teach Empathy Through Parenting How to Balance Protection and Freedom as a Parent How to Normalize Therapy and Emotional Support Their conversation is a moving testament to the impact of compassion, authenticity, and purposeful living, a reminder that life’s greatest challenges can be met with empathy, courage, and hope. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty Join over 750,000 people to receive my most transformative wisdom directly in your inbox every single week with my free newsletter. Subscribe here.   Join Jay for his first ever, On Purpose Live Tour! Tickets are on sale now. Hope to see you there!   What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:00 The Kind of Love Only Siblings Understand 04:15 What was the First Secret You Shared With Each Other? 09:53 Raised To Be Independent Children In A Loving Community 14:55 How Different Generations Celebrate Birthdays 17:00 How to Unlearn Your Inner Fears 19:47 The Fear Of What Could Happen Can Hinder Personal Growth 25:28 What a Childhood Encounter with Police Taught Me About Bias 29:35 Being Judged By The Color Of Your Skin 31:54 Racism Is Still An Issue 34:07 How to Raise Resilient Children 35:59 Don't Make Assumptions Based On Your Emotions 38:17 Don't Let Negative Thoughts Dictate Your Actions 40:48 The Power Of Good Parenting 48:41 How To Prioritize Being A Parent While Chasing Your Dreams 52:08 Parents Aren't Responsible For Their Children's Happiness 58:07 Focus On Cultivating Independence in Your Children 01:02:24 What Is Your Form Of Therapy? 01:11:08 Are You Doing Enough? 01:16:10 How To Become A Good Parent 01:37 What Would Your Mother Be Most Proud Of? Episode Resources: Michelle Obama | Instagram Michelle Obama | Facebook Michelle Obama | YouTube Michelle Obama | Books Obama Foundation  The Light We Carry: Overcoming in Uncertain Times Craig Robinson | Instagram  Craig Robinson | X IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig RobinsonSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and a meet and greet with photos. Tickets are on sale now. Head to jsheddy.me forward slash tour and get yours today. To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough? Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. So let's unpack that. Former First Lady Michelle Obama,

and someone who knows her best, her big brother Craig, will be hosting a podcast called IMO. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives. My mom wanted us to be independent children. And she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister. Having been the first lady of the entire country

and representing the country and the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest, recent test of fear? I'm going to make him start so that I don't start crying. The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.

The one, the only Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guests are two of my favorite people. I'm so grateful and excited to welcome one of them back, and one of them for the first time ever. I'm speaking about none other than Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Welcome to On Purpose. The dynamic duo. The dynamic duo. I always say it's like you're my most favorite interview ever, period.

Oh my gosh. That's saying a lot. Oh my gosh. Wow, you're going to make me cry. I'm like, that's so sweet. Oh my gosh. She's the one who turned me on to you. So this is like old home week.

I know. Thank you both. But honestly, I'm so grateful. I was just thinking when I was preparing for this, I was like, I wish my sister was in town. Oh, yes. Because then we could have double interviewed. All right, we're going to play it next time.

We can do that. She would have killed me if I did that to her because she's not on camera. Oh, is she? She's an optometrist in London. The best. Yeah. She could have checked your eyes for you happily.

She's four and a half years younger than me and I still remember the moment. Well, I don't remember the moment. It's interesting. I've seen a picture of me holding her when she was born and I was like four and a half, five years old. And so I have this memory that I held her when she was born and we've been inseparable ever since. Jay, you're going to have to, when she comes to town, just don't tell her, just tell us

and we'll come back and we can just ambush her. Oh, I love that. Yeah, she will kill me. But we have one of those pictures too, my favorite family picture. I was a newborn, I was maybe 10 months, but I was one of these big fat round puffy babies and a bonnet and a white dress. And my dad was in a suit and a bow tie. And mom, our mom had the most beautiful tunic dress on

and Craig sat on her lap. I was on my dad's lap. And I have this little fat arm and he's in a little bow tie and he's holding on to my arm and looking at the camera like, you better not. He seems so concerned. He was about two years old. Craig, can we get the look? I was worried. I had this, like what is going on on and I was holding on because I was worried. I don't know what they're going to do to my sister, but that picture epitomizes our relationship. He has always been my quiet protector.

Just, and that sweet little face. You know, he is the ultimate big brother and he's been by my side, holding my arm like that for my entire life. Wow! I love that. And do you actually remember... Do you remember the moment or it's the picture that you remember? It's like yours. It's the picture. I don't have... And I remember back to when I was three and four, some things.

But that one I don't... But when I see the picture, it just warms my heart every time I see it. Yeah, I love that. I mean, sibling relationships, as I said, in mine as well, my sister and I are so close. Yeah. And we haven't lived in the same country for nine years now. Yeah, it's tough.

But we talk and stay in touch and we're constantly connected. And I wanted to start by asking you this question for both of you that I feel like the first time me and my sister got close is when I shared a secret with her. And I was wondering what was the first secret that you ever told each other as early as it was, as silly as it was, that you remember sharing something in confidence in the beginning early days of your relationship. Okay, now you did this to me when you came on our show.

That is a question I've never been asked. I love it. Good, good. I love it. You got me back. You got me back. when you came on our show, that is a question I've never been asked. I love it. I love it. All right, you got me back. You got me back. Okay. What a secret.

I don't know if it was a secret, but it was what felt like a secret practice of ours. Like we shared a room for most of our lives and there came a point in time when our parents, because we didn't have a lot of money, thought it's time for them to have their own room. So they took this one big room, and our grandfather Southside, who was a Jack Lay carpenter, built a plywood teawall that went down the middle of this one bedroom and broke the room into two little units that were big enough for a twin bed and a desk and one of those accordion

doors, right? Those were our rooms. We had our own room. And it was that old paneling look. So it was that fake wood that was like balsam. And the ceiling didn't go all the way to the top of the roof and there was a little crack in between the rooms by the windowsill. And when we were supposed to be in bed, we would spend that whole night just talking

in between the walls, right? We were supposed to be asleep, but Craig would go, Mesh, Mesh, are you awake? I'd be like, no. And then we'd have some deep conversation about life, and, you know, every now and then, Mom would yell, go to bed! You're supposed to be asleep! And we'd giggle and we'd just keep talking. So I think we shared the secret of not going to bed, but having our own little breakdown of the day.

I don't even remember what we talked about, but... We weren't supposed to be talking, but we were constantly talking. So I can't think of a secret. So I can think of a secret. So this is the discovery of Santa Claus. Oh, yes, that's a good one. So we, Jay, as you know, we lived in a two-family home. We lived on the top floor, very small apartment.

Our great aunt Robbie and uncle Terry lived downstairs. And in our basement, which wasn't finished, it was a concrete basement, pillars, washing machine, furnace, storage room, but then there was a table that was like a workbench and a refrigerator that didn't work or wasn't plugged in. It was an old refrigerator, old time refrigerator. And we used to go down there and play hockey.

We played hockey, we'd ride our bikes, we'd do all kinds of stuff. And Mesh was down there once by herself and came running upstairs, Craig, Craig, come here, come here, come here. And she took me downstairs. She opens up the refrigerator and there are two empty boxes for boxing gloves. Now this is June or July.

Little kids boxing gloves. We got boxing gloves for Christmas the year before. Oh, OK. And she deduced... The gloves are here. Santa wouldn't leave gloves. Glove boxes. Glove boxes, because our mom didn't wrap the presents.

She set them under the tree as if Santa had just brought toys and didn't wrap them. And I remember me saying, Mom and Dad are Santa Claus. But then the secret was we weren't going to tell them that we knew. Because first of all, we didn't want to disappoint them. Because it's like, what a blunder, right? So we sort of kept it to ourselves that for a good year or two,

we knew there wasn't a Santa Claus. And just played along. And you played along. We played along. We played along. That's so funny. It's like living a lie. That's really, and do your parents know that?

Yeah, they know the story. They know the story, yeah. How did they feel when you told them? They were mad at our Aunt Robbie. My mom was in particular. Because she was like, I told her not to keep those glove boxes. She was supposed to throw those. My mom was furious because my mom took Christmas

very seriously. I mean, she decorated the house. She created a chimney where there wasn't one. She was very crafty. She really took great joy in keeping the Santa Claus myth alive. And the fact that our Aunt Robbie spoiled it for us sooner than she was ready to, she was not happy.

It's always an auntie. It's always an aunt. The aunt that didn't have kids and didn't really appreciate it, and she cared more about saving a couple of boxes than, you know, keeping the magic of Christmas alive. Oh, that's amazing. So, yeah, that was a good one. That is a good one.

That's why it's good to have him here, because I wouldn't have remembered that at all. That's what's so beautiful about this relationship. And it's interesting you both said, because we did the same things, and me and my sister shared a room as well. And it's so interesting to hear about, I talked to a lot of siblings,

and some are not close to each other, and some are very close to each other, and you see that pattern in people who shared a room, who talked about something every night, connected. And that's how I think me and my sister got used to talking to each other because that's who you dissected the day with. Exactly. Even if it wasn't very deep and profound at the time.

We were stuck with each other for better, for worse. I love that. What was, what would you say was something that you felt a value that you learned at that early stage in your life that you both feel you've kept till today? Like something that's continued to be a part of who you are today. My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me stop worrying about your sister because whenever I did something I wanted to include her if I was going outside and she was outside I felt like I had to keep an eye on her I felt like I had to

protect her and my mom always said to not do that. Interesting. First of all, she didn't want Mish to have to feel like she was being looked after by her brother. That's what her parents were for. And she didn't want me to have to worry about her. But I will say that I couldn't stop worrying about her. So I have been looking after her from the time she was a little kid

and I was holding her arm. We ended up in college together at Princeton. And you remember when we drove to South Carolina? Yeah. We rented a car. For spring break. For spring break and drove to South Carolina. To visit our grandparents who had just moved down there.

They had moved down there from Chicago and we thought we'd surprise them. And the two of us were going to drive, but I was so worried about her driving that I tried to drive the entire way by myself and six hours in. He's starting to blink. I'm like, are you okay?

He's like, I got it, I got it. And I was like, you know I can drive. She's very capable and a very good driver, but I was, me and Mr. Worrywore. So finally I had to just take it out. I just have to go to sleep. I was like, well, pull over. I can do this.

I drove us the rest of the way down. She drove us the rest of the way, but at every 15 minutes after I fall asleep, I'd be like, you okay? Are you okay? Yeah, I'm awake. It's like, are you okay? It's fine.

Well, for me, the value, it's the value of family. It's the value of, there's no one you can count on more than your siblings and your mom and your dad. And I feel for people who were raised with sibling turmoil, you know, or turmoil in their household where they didn't feel safe at home. And that was never the case. We felt poor, you know. We felt like we didn't always get the stuff that we wanted, but we always felt, and it wasn't just our nuclear family, we grew up in a big community of family.

We're fortunate enough to be raised with all four of our grandparents. They all lived within a couple of mile radius of us. Even though our maternal grandparents were separated, they lived in separate households around the corner from each other. Wow. Which was around the corner from us. Right, right. Cousins and uncles and aunts. And when times were down, people would share homes. I remember when we were little in Southside, our mother's father, who lived with a couple

of her sisters, their house burned down. Their apartment did. And I remember being really little and there was a discussion or how are we gonna help people out until they found a new place to live. And so two of our aunts, Carolyn, and there was someone else stayed in our little apartment

and she worked nights, but she slept in my bed. And I didn't even really know it because she would come in and just push me over and sleep in bed with me, which was next to Craig's bed. It was just this, when family's in trouble, you step up. And I think to this day, throughout all our travels, travails, being in the White House, we retained that. No matter what was going on in his life or mine,

we had some rituals. We did Thanksgiving together. His family came to the Easter egg roll. My niece and nephew, his oldest kids, whenever we had an interesting trip in the summer, Avery and Leslie always came with us. So it wasn't just me, Malia and Sasha on Bright Star, the First Lady's plane, seeing Nelson Mandela or going on safari or going to Rome, but Avery and Leslie came with us.

So it just made the whole experience feel like we weren't on some island just doing this really hard thing, but we were still doing it as a family. So family values, I think is probably one of the strongest things we took away and we made it happen in that little house on 74th and Euclid. It was just brimming with love and conversation and trust. I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all you tea lovers out there. And even if you don't love tea,

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to elevate your wellness journey and use code ONPURPOSE to receive 15% off your first order. That's www.dr drinkjuni.com and make sure you use the code ONPURPOSE. Yeah, I love that. I remember last time we were together, you were talking about just the kitchen table and just the gathering of minds and family and how important that is. And Craig, I know your birthday is coming up too.

It is. In like a few days. Thanks for remembering remembering 21st. Yeah, absolutely. Happy 21st birthday. But is birthday is a big part of connecting over the years as well or has not been? Because that for my sister is like the biggest day.

She's like, my birthday is really important. Do not miss my birthday. Like I know. Well, we never missed birthdays and we always celebrated birthdays, but they weren't a big deal like where we had a party. Right. Like I think you had one or two birthday parties.

And this is the tripped out thing about this generation. Like kids have parties every year. And multiple parties. They're blowout, you know? Yeah, it's a birthday month now. It's a birthday month and you're renting something and you're cater something and you're catering. I think like our generation, you had maybe 13, maybe five years old.

You had two parties and they were at your house in the kitchen table with your cousins. You played pen the tail on the donkey in the yard or somewhere like that. But as a family, we celebrated everybody's birthday and it was a big deal. It was. And every now and then, that community of relatives that were around us would come over and it didn't matter what the day, if it was Thursday and everybody had to go to work on Friday, they would come over and sing Happy Birthday,

gift cards out. Birthdays were always celebrated in our family. They weren't like big, like see me, bring me gifts, but it was a time to gather. And we're talking about the extended family. So my mother had seven brothers and sisters, and then the cousins, and then our grandfather. We were always at Southside's house for these birthdays,

because that's the side of the family that did it. Every... There was a dinner and cards for every birthday. For all those people, you know. Wow. That's a lot of people. So it was almost like every weekend we were celebrating somebody's birthday. That's amazing. What's been something that you've... An idea that you've had to unlearn since you were younger. Something that you've kind of had to let go of as time has gone on.

Something that was important before. But you're like, no, it's not so important. Mish talked about our grandfather's apartment being on fire. Fire back then in the 70s was a real thing. Like, houses caught on fire a lot. People didn't have smoke, especially in working class, poor communities, you didn't have smoke detectors. Smoke detectors.

So I think we knew several kids whose homes caught on fire. Caught on fire. And I had to unlearn worrying about our house being on fire. I mean, I grew up completely obsessed with being able to recognize if the house was gonna be on fire, number one, and then having the ability to get everyone out. And you know our dad had MS, and so he walked with a limp from the time I could remember.

He then had a cane, and then he had the crutches that went around his arm. And I would practice dragging him with his shoulder, with my arms under his shoulders around the house. And he would, I know it was humiliating, but he'd let me do it. And my mom would be like, "'Craig, put Fraszier down, just stop doing that.

And I wanted to make sure I could drag him through the house. And we had like 14 stairs down to get out. I didn't drag him down there, but I knew I could if I had to. That's something I had to unlearn, because that was a real fear of mine, was the fear of dying in a fire. Wow. What did it take? Like, mine was the fear of dying in a fire. Wow. What did it take? What was the... Well, what it took was I realized it was irrational as I got older because there were less house fires.

And I guess it wasn't irrational because there were actually house fires. But the advent of smoke detectors and the advent of sort of a non-inflammable, or what is it, non-inflammable? Non-inflammable. Items around the house. I was always worried about a fire starting,

and we had a fire start in our kitchen, remember? We were cooking Pop-Tarts, which were like the- On Saturday mornings- Toastems, we- We kind of had the run of the kitchen, because that was the day mom would sleep in. And we had this old toaster and we were making pot tarts and it caught fire and there were flames coming.

And the flame came up and then sure enough. You're like, this is it. Mom to the rescue. Mom came in and put it under the sink and it was over. Saved the day. I mean, that's a real fear. But as you talk about fear, when I day. I mean, that's a real fear. Yeah. That's scary. Yeah, but as you talk about fear, when I think about things that I think we had

to subconsciously unlearn was fear, because we grew up at a time, and just coming out of the deep segregation of Chicago, but our parents and grandparents grew up in it. In a time when being black in the city, you were isolated, there were areas of the city that you couldn't go into because you could be literally harmed, killed as a black person. That was the truth of Chicago. As I noticed in my family,

fear, the fear of what could happen to a black man, to a black person, kind of consumed some of our elders and stunted their growth. I mean, Southside, the grandparent that I talked about, he was kind of a mama's boy. His mom, our great-grandmother, Mamaw, overprotected him. And as a result, he never really got his own footing because he had a mom that was gonna make sure,

you live at home, I'll take care of you. He also had limits as a black man because he was a carpenter who wasn't allowed to join the unions, couldn't afford to go to college. They were of the generation where even if you were smart and talented, the ceiling was real and the dangers were real. A lot of the reason our family was so close was because the elders were keeping everybody close. And they were slowly passing those fears on, don't go down this street, don't go on this

bus, maybe not take that job, don't try something new because it could kill you. I think our parents tried to actively unhook those things from us by pushing us out. I think they knew that they had the tendency to suffocate their dreams because of these fears, to not try new things, to not draw outside of the lines. And I think they deliberately pushed us. So there were a lot of yeses in terms of experiences, exposures. Craig traveling on his AAU basketball league to other parts of the city even. You know, because in a city like Chicago, because of those fears, we had cousins that lived on the west side of the

city. We lived on the south side of the city in a neighborhood that was right along the lake near downtown Chicago. If you're a black kid growing up on the west side of the city in a neighborhood that was right along the lake near downtown Chicago. If you're a black kid growing up on the west side of Chicago, we met kids that had never been downtown. They had never seen the lake. And if you've been to Chicago, to be from Chicago and never see the lake is a Herculean effort. But you understand it when you're a black kid from the West side and you're viewed with suspicion when you come downtown. You don't feel welcome outside of your neighborhood, so your world gets smaller and smaller.

I think our parents did not want that smallness for us, and we saw how that smallness kept some really intelligent people in our lives in one spot. You know, they didn't move, they didn't grow, they didn't try new things. I had an aunt, my mother's youngest sister who recently passed this year, who never came to the White House in all the years that we were there. She never came. Why? Because she was afraid of flying. She was afraid of driving too long.

She was afraid of doing anything, but leaving her house and going to work and coming home. We saw that fear, right? We saw that and you have to actively tell yourself a different set of messages about what you can expect from the world. And we also could have been limited by that yourself a different set of messages about what you can expect from the world. And we also could have been limited by that because while it physically limited some of

our relatives, some of our grandparents' perspectives, like many people in this country, they were backwards thinking. Their views of white people and who they could trust, the same So I never went to the doctor because he didn't trust doctors. So he never went to the dentist. That's probably why he died in his 70s. He didn't have a tooth in his head, but he would never go to the dentist. And we would talk about these things around our immediate kitchen table because our parents wanted us to learn from the mistakes that they had made and others. And that was the power of that household.

Our parents talked to us very openly and honestly about some of the weird things you'd see at Christmas dinner or some of the conversations. And you'd come back and go, well, why did Dandy, our other grandfathers, say that? Why did he yell about that? What was he talking about? We were always allowed to question. and that fear element and the limitations on people's

views of the world, we would see and discuss and we were told you have to do better than that. You have to live beyond that fear. You have to push yourself outside of your comfort zone. And I continue to try to do that and instill that in my kids and other kids to this day. I mean, that's such a profound thing to reflect on when thinking about what to unlearn. Because it's so, as you said, it wasn't both of yours, but especially this is something that isn't going to change based on a mindset because it exists in reality. Did either of you ever have any close calls or run-ins that you would like to share? For comfortable sharing?

You were about 10 years old. I was probably more like 12 because I could ride to Rainbow Beach. So if you figure I'm 12 years old. Which is a beach in our neighborhood. Seventh grade-ish. A department store near our house called Goldblatz had a sale on 10-speed bikes, the kind with the with the handlebars they go under. That was brand new back then. They were yellow and they sold a ton of them. And you got one as a gift, your first

10-speed bike. And it had to be, I must've gotten it for my birthday, so it was probably around this time of the year. But it didn't come with the clamps to hold the cables along the yoke. So my mom used these twist ties that she got from the baggies that you would put stuff in before you had the Ziploc. You had these bags, and then you put these green and white twisty

ties on it. So she put them on my bike and there is a point to this. Yeah, I'm wondering what it is. So I'm riding my bike by myself down 75th street, which if you head east, you run right into Lake Michigan and I'm almost there and a policeman comes up to me while I'm riding and I'm on the sidewalk and he's in the street, turns his lights on, tells me to pull over and I stop.

And I was like, officer, how can I help? Because I'm always happy to see a policeman. My uncle's a policeman and, you know, officer friendly in school. And he said, where'd you get that bike? And I said, ah, I got it for my birthday. I just got it. I mean, take a look at, I was proud of it.

I was like, this is my new 10 speed bike. He said, you stole that bike. Now this was a black police officer. And I was like, no, no. And it was so out of the realm of my mind to be accused of stealing a bike, I wasn't even worried at first. I just said, no, no, listen, you got it all wrong. This is a brand new bike that I got. And he was like, I know you stole that bike. And he was basing it on the fact that someone who had bought a similar bike had it stolen

and their mom used twist ties to put them on the cables. So he wouldn't believe me. And so now I'm getting worried and he picks up my bike and puts it in the trunk of the car, puts me in the back of the car and says, where do you live? And I said, I told him where I lived and he was dropped. I said, you'll, you'll realize this is my bike. We can go right to my mom's right to my house. So we pull up to my house. And by this time I'm in tears. I'm just beside myself. I ring the doorbell and my mom was worried because she knew I was gone for a long bike ride. She comes out and I said,

the policeman has accused me of stealing this bike and I'm in tears. She comes out and she said, wait inside. And I'm on our front porch looking out, or actually I'm upstairs looking down because we lived upstairs. I'm looking down and I see her and I can tell she is pissed and she is talking to him like she would talk to us if we were in trouble. And all I can see is the the policeman trying to defend himself. So after about 20 minutes, she yells up to the window, Craig, come down here.

And she said, this policeman has something to say to you. And this dude took off his hat and apologized for accusing me of stealing his bike. And as it turned out, they ended up finding the guy. And as it turned out, they ended up finding the guy. But it was, you know, that's kind of the collateral damage of being a young black kid living in the city. I just think about all, you know, what would have happened if my mom wasn't a stay-at-home mom? What if she had been in work when that happened? What if, you know, he didn't have a mom

that, you know, would stand up for him? What are all the what ifs that could have happened? And that is, you imagine you're just having a regular day and your son is pulled up to your house in the back of a police car. At 10 years old. At 10, 12 years old. It was frightening. It was frightening. It was frightening.

You know, and I think what she was incredulous about was that he wasn't even inclined to believe this little boy who was obviously articulate, didn't look, you know, you don't even want to say didn't look like some little hood rat because what does that matter, right? But that was, you know, that was unusual for us because we were good kids. I mean, and we lived in a neighborhood where kids were getting into trouble all the time and he knew all the kids because he was a basketball player.

He knew the gang kids and the drug dealers but everybody also knew him. And when you grow up in a neighborhood, people know the kids that are heading in the wrong direction and the kids who have promise. Everybody knew that Craig was a good student, he was a good guy and the notion, and I felt the anger too. It's like, how dare you do that to my brother? But he, you know, he had a support system. He could have wound up in jail for not stealing a bike. So yeah, that kind of stuff happened all the time.

Walking into a department store as a young kid and having the salespeople wonder why you're there. And you're an honor student coming from high school, having lunch with your friends. I mean, they didn't see that part. There were times when that part of us couldn't be, we couldn't walk around saying valedictorian, straight A student, speaks excellent,

has excellent diction if you give them a chance. We knew very early on that that no one was gonna see beyond the color of our skin at an early age. And that could get you in trouble. Calling all 9-9ers, now streaming. It's the More Better podcast with two episodes of Brooklyn Nine-Nine Fun. Host Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero welcome two friends and former cast mates. Don't miss Gina Linetti herself, the talented Chelsea Peretti, as she sits down to laugh and swap stories.

Like Andre would always be like, try and stuff there, they're like, do less. Do less. Yeah, I do less all the time. But then some of the biggest things were the biggest hits, like Vindication, remember? And the 99 Nonsense continues in the next episode as the more better amigas sit down with Joe Lattrullio, aka Detective Charles Boyle.

There'll be more laughs, more conversation, more stories from the set, and more, more better. Both episodes are now available. You felt safe enough to fill out a bad idea, right? I mean, that is the key because you're definitely not throwing out good ideas all the time. I mean, that's just not how it works. Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever wondered if your pet is lying to you? Why is my cat not here? And I go in and she's eating my lunch. Or if hypnotism is real? You will use a suggestion in order to enhance your cognitive control. But what's inside a black hole?

Black holes could be a consequence of the way that we understand the universe. Well, we have answers for you in the new iHeart original podcast, Science Stuff. Join me or Hitcham as we answer questions about animals, space, our brains, and our bodies. So give yourself permission to be a science geek and listen to Science Stuff on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Camila Ramon, Peloton's first Spanish speaking cycling and tread instructor.

I'm an athlete, entrepreneur, and almost most importantly, a perreo enthusiast. And I'm Liz Ortiz, former pro soccer player and Olympian and like call me a perreo enthusiast. Come on, who is it? Our podcast, Hasta Abajo, is where sports, music, and fitness collide. And we cover it all, de arriba hasta abajo. Sit downs with real game changers in the sports world, like Miami Dolphins CMO Priscilla Shumate, who is redefining what it means to be a Latina leader.

It all changed when I had this guy come to me. He said to me, you know, you're not Latina. First of all, what is that my mouth is wide open yeah history makers like the sukar family who became the first peruvians to win a grammy it was a very special moment for us it's been 15 years for me in this career finally things are starting to shift into a different level listen to hasta abajo on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I mean, when you talk about that fear,

I'm sure that fear has been tested across your life in so many different places. And I wonder, what would you say has been the most hardest recent test of that fear? Because it's not one of those fears that you kind of get over and it just goes away. It kind of shows its head in many different ways, I imagine. Well, in this current climate for me, it's, you know, what's happening to immigrants, you know, so it's, it's not the fear for myself anymore.

I drive around in a four car motorcade with a police escort. I'm Michelle Obama. I do still worry about my daughters in the world, even though they are somewhat recognizable. So my fears are for what I know is happening out there in streets all over the city. And now that we have leadership that is sort of indiscriminately determining who belongs and who doesn't. And we know that those decisions aren't being made with courts and with due process and that it's being made like this cop that pulled my brother over when he was 12. You don't look like somebody that belongs. I can determine just by looking at you that you're a good person or you're not a good person.

Knowing that there's so much bias and so much racism and so much ignorance that fuels those kind of choices, I worry for people of color all over this country. I don't know that we will have the advocates to protect everybody. And that makes me, that frightens me. It keeps me up at night. And I know that there are, and I see that when I'm driving around LA,

I'm just looking in the faces of folks who could be victim. And I'm wondering, how are you feeling? How do you feel standing on the bus stop? How do you feel comfortable going to work, going to school, when you know that there could be people out here judging you and who could upend your life in a second? That, you know, that's who I worry for right now.

What do you both do with that fear? Because I think that's very real and a lot of people listening probably feel very similarly to both of you as well. What do you do with it? Because it almost feels overwhelming. And especially for someone going through it, as you talk about with your daughters too. It's not something that you rationalize. You know, it's not the same as so many other fears. So what do you do with it? See, I still have a couple of young kids at home.

So I've got a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old. So I'm still in the education process for those guys. Because we live in a suburb and we have a relatively safe environment. So our kids aren't growing up with that kind of fear that we had, but I have to make them aware of it because at some point they're going to be away from us and they're going to be in a place where they're going to encounter that. I'm trying to be as empathetic as I can because that's how we were taught to deal with this kind of behavior.

Our mom always said, just put yourself in the other guy's shoes. He's probably had a bad upbringing, an ignorant upbringing. His folks didn't know anything. And that's how I always viewed people who treated me with disdain because of my race or because of where I'm from or- That's powerful. And that's how I always view people who treated me with disdain

because of my race or because of where I'm from or anything. And I'm trying to help my, even my older kids who are 33 and 29, they're pretty much formed and are handling things on their own. But it's a good reminder to talk about this and put some coping strategies together for especially our teenagers because they're going to encounter this at some point. I have to practice reverse messaging in my own head about this stuff because in my own head about this stuff because you can get locked in the disappointments of what is happening right now and you can sit in it and let that eat you up and it can taint

your view of so much. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country and the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. I had to remind myself and put myself in situations that reminded me the ideals and beliefs that I disagree with are not pervasive, that there are a lot of good people out there, again, employing empathy, but also reminding myself of the truth of what I've seen and I've experienced, that we're in a confusing time, but it doesn't help me and it doesn't help the country for me to grow cynical in

that space. So I kind of view it as it's a duty as a citizen to not do the same thing that they're doing and start making assumptions about people based on my anger and fear, you know, that I have to assume that most people are trying to do the right thing, that deep down inside the vast majority of us do not want to see our neighbors and our friends and relatives live in fear. They just don't understand what it feels like to be the target.

But if they knew, they would understand, which is why communication and conversation is so important because maybe if I can tell a story, if I can help them be in the shoes of someone and that it can have that same empathizing effect, that I'd rather use that rather than become, to become discouraged and then suspicious, and just be the, you know, just do what they're doing.

I don't want to become that. So it's a constant reminder, do not slip in to that behavior yourself. I love that. I think that's such an optimistic, hopeful, powerful mindset. And you're so right because if we all become cynical and skeptical and negative, it only makes it worse for us and worse for everyone around us. Yeah. Let me tell you. It's valid.

I can be cynical. And I can be all of that. And I don't want to set myself because in these times it's hard. No one is perfect. But I try to keep that to my kitchen table. You know? I mean, I feel like when you have a platform and you have a voice, there is a responsibility

to use that wisely. So yes, even I in going high, there are times I want to go low. And I need to let that out, but I'm never going to let that out in public because that's not even fully truly how I feel. You know? So just for our listeners and viewers, it's like, yes, of course we all feel it. It's just a question of how do we act on it. And you hear this, this is why we're doing IMO, right? It's just to be able to take the lessons we've learned and the experiences that we've gone through and hers being at the level of the White House

and mine being what they are, sort of I'm still the regular guy in the family. But we're hoping that we can share some of these with folks and learn some things from the people that we have on like you. Just listening to her do that, this is the most fun I am having, other than hanging with my kids and my family. I just get goosebumps when you hear some good wisdom.

Oh yeah, I mean that totally, like, you know, it just, it was just such a refreshing take on what I was saying was, is a valid concern, is a natural feeling that people are having. But to flip the script in our own minds as to how we deal with it and that constant battle that we have to have with the thoughts in our head. And I love what you're doing with IMO. I mean, I was so grateful to be a guest on the show and to visit you both in Martha's Vineyard, which was last year, I think it was. And first of all, I'm just so grateful when I see, doing it with family is just special

because already you're seeing sides of each other that you'd never see elsewhere. So you can tell how authentic and real it is and true it is, which is so beautiful. And on top of that, what I love about it the most is that I feel the fact that you're doing a podcast, which is the most accessible platform where you're giving. I mean, you know, when we were on like questions coming in from the audience that we were tackling together, trying to hear from both of your experiences.

And by the way, Craig, you saying that you, you know, the normal regular person in the family. I mean like, you know, compared to her. I hope everyone has the regular, you know. It's amazing to hear it from both of your sides. And the fact that you're opening up, even just the way you did now, about these real life experiences that you've both had.

I think it's so needed, because I think the challenge is that when people do have success, as both of you have had, and the incredible heights of success that you've had, you forget that someone was once scared that they were told they were stealing a bike or, you know, that they were scared about going down a particular street in their neighborhood. And that's where so many people start out.

And it's not saying that everyone has to go and achieve things externally in the world to get out of that, but these are real emotions. And I think what you were saying to me that resonated just now, Michelle, was this idea that you've had to push yourself out of that comfort zone, and your parents wanted you to not have that.

What amazing parenting. I mean, what amazing parenting. Yeah. I mean, what phenomenal parenting when you have every reason to scare your kids into a corner, but you actually use it to expand their vision up to the whole world. I mean, that's... We were blessed, Jay. And the older we get, the further down life's path we go as we parent and parent young kids and adult kids.

We've come to appreciate how rare our parents' perspectives were for anyone, let alone for people in their circumstances, which is another thing, reason why it's like, well, let's create a bigger kitchen table. I mean, with the loss of our mom this year, that was also a big impetus to do this podcast because the wisdom that she gave us, it lives in us. As people who were raised to be givers and to be mentors and to gain joy from that mentorship, truly that's sort of a shared attribute in both of us. Being able to take that wisdom and, I don't want to spread it to the world, but to just let other people benefit from the little

nuggets of wisdom that our parents laid out in that kitchen table. It's like, why not share it? The power of good parenting is too often underestimated. And I think our parents came into parenting with a philosophy, like a basic philosophy. And when you think of how most people think of parenting, they just think, I want to have a baby. And that's where it begins and ends. I want to have a baby. But then the question is, well, why? Why do you want to have a baby. But then the question is, well, why?

Why do you want to have a baby? Do you want to have a baby because you're lonely? Hmm, that's not going to work out well. Do you want to have a baby to create a mini me to continue on some aspect of yourself that you didn't achieve? Ooh, that's going to be a messy kind of situation. Are you lonely and you want a companion?

Do you want a friend? I mean, if we actually sit down and piece that stuff apart before we have kids, because parenting is a hard thing, I think our parents, or at least our mother for sure, she wanted parents because she felt the importance of raising independent, kind, compassionate people. Adults. Like she always said, I'm not raising babies, I'm raising adults. And that completely shifts your approach as to how you parent if you're not like just trying to raise a friend.

Because let me tell you, if you want a friend, you never want your friend to be mad at you, right? You want your friend to like you. And if you're a parent and you're worried about whether your kid likes you, I guarantee you, you are screwing them up, right? Because so much of parenting means that you have to suffer through them gritting under their teeth of, oh, I hate you. Oh, mommy, make me so mad. And why don't you ever, you know, and it's like, you can have those feelings, you know, but as my girls say that their favorite phrase of mine is, I'm not one of your little friends. It's like, I, you don't have to like me. I've got my own friends. So you can, don't slam your door. You can go in your room, you can say whatever you want, but you better not let me hear it.

And when you come out, you still have to do it because I am not raising you to be my friend. I'm raising you to be a human, a responsible adult in the world. And that's how our mother raised us. And I always say if everybody took that to heart before they had kids, and they treated parenting in that way, well, that would solve a lot of the mess

we're trying to deal with right now. If parents just approached the job, like this is the biggest, most important thing that I'm doing. And it isn't about me. It is about who this little human is going to be and how they're going to enter the world and are they going to be empathetic? Are they going to be responsible?

Are they going to be an asshole out here? And you start doing that when they're two and three and for all of that work, it starts that early. That's, you know, if I think of a mission for myself right now today, it's really like having us all rethink the way we are building the next generation and what our duties and our responsibilities are, what we're getting right and what we haven't been getting right.

And how do we self-correct? I'm really like on one for just that thing. Cause we're not gonna be able to count on the government. You know, I mean, we're not right now, we're not investing in education. So we can't, you know, we're not paying teachers enough. We're leaving this all on us. We're saying we don't want to pay taxes for any of this stuff. Right. So we sure as hell better be good at taking care of our kids. Cause now we're saying,

well, then it's all on us and we can't afford to get it wrong. Mic drop. That was like, that really hits hard. I mean, that resonates so strongly. And I feel, as I was listening to you, it's in one sense, and I want to ask you this both as parents, I'm not a parent yet. And partly it's because me and my wife have these discussions. We talk a lot about what our parenting philosophy is. And we've talked about it over the years that we've been together.

We've been together now for 12 years and married for nine. And it's been a topic of conversation and there's been things we haven't agreed on. There's things we agree on and we want to make sure that we have an aligned viewpoint, even if we have slight differences, we want to have an aligned viewpoint of, because we want the kids to get a clear message. We don't want them to get mom and dad to have different viewpoints and that, you know, they're arguing about trying to figure it out.

And it's hard. And I wanted to ask you both as parents to think, you know, you've both lived incredibly successful lives. You went to the best schools in the country. You know, you went on to pivot and have an amazing career in your passion of basketball. Like to even be able to do that as a coach is incredible, Craig, right?

Like to be able to pivot, which I'm sure took sacrifice and stress, and I want to link it to parenting. And of course, Michelle, like going to the White House, raising kids while you're at the White House, leaving, then continuing. How did you put parenting as a priority despite prioritizing your passion, prioritizing the country and service, prioritizing your own marriages. Like I feel like there's so much pressure on parents.

We just said we can't rely on school, we can't rely on the government, can't rely. So that means it's all in this person. How does a parent take that pressure in a way that uplifts them and allows them to pursue their greatness too, rather than feel completely paralyzed by it. The first thing that comes to my mind is that, as Mish said, we were so blessed to have such good parents, I feel obligated to be a great parent as a tribute to my own parents. Well, you also know what a great parent looks like. I do know what a great parent as a tribute to my own parents. Well, you also know what a great parent looks like.

I do know what a great parent looks like, but I also am so thankful for the sacrifices that they made so that we could thrive. And it makes sense and irrespective of whatever it makes sense and irrespective of whatever my passion is, which is basketball or coaching or mentoring, the first responsibility I have are to the four kids that I brought into this world. That's an easy one, Jay, for me to do.

If I had to sacrifice my passion for my kids, I would have. Fortunately, coaching is a terrific environment to raise kids because you're around other young people and it really is like having 15 kids instead of just four. I would say there is a discipline that comes with it. And you talked about this being aligned. We call it United Front in our house. No matter what we're thinking, we are gonna come to an agreement when it comes to,

all right, let's give some advice to these kids. This is the advice. Sometimes it's what Kelly wants, and sometimes it's what I want. My wife, Kelly. So there's a coordinated communication, there's discipline, and then most of all, and I think I hear the word me time in these young parents. You know, my parents never talked about me time. Their me time was our time.

And I know from a mental health standpoint, we all need to get away and be on our own. But I would do that after I made sure my kids were solidly on good footing before I was worried about I need a vacation with my boys to go to Vegas. I just saw my dad, and you talked about it, he was a shift worker for the city of Chicago, but he made time, no matter what shift he was on, to attend our events, to play with us when he got home. No matter how tired he was, he made us the priority.

So it's not hard work for, it doesn't feel like it's hard work for me and for us. We just had really good role models and we were well coached in parenting. Prohibition is synonymous with speakeasies, jazz, flappers, and of course, failure. I'm Ed Helms and on season three of my podcast, Snafu, there's a story I couldn't wait to tell you. It's about an unlikely duo in the 1920s who tried to warn the public that Prohibition

was going to backfire so badly, it just might leave thousands dead from poison. Listen and subscribe to Snafu on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Camila Ramon, Peloton's first Spanish speaking cycling and tread instructor. I'm an athlete, entrepreneur, and almost most importantly, a perreo enthusiast. And I'm Liz Ortiz, former pro soccer player and Olympian and like Kami, a perreo enthusiast.

Come on, who is it? Our podcast Hasta Abajo is where sports, music and fitness collide and we cover it all. De arriba hasta abajo. Sit downs with real game changers in the sports world like Miami Dolphins CMO Priscilla Schumate, who is redefining what it means to be a Latina leader. It all changed when I had this guy come to me. He said to me, you know, you're not Latina. First of all, what is that move?

I'm out this wide open. Yeah. History makers like the Sukar family, who became the first Peruvians to win a Grammy. It was a very special moment for us. It's been 15 years for me in this career. Finally, things are starting to shift into a different level. Listen to Hasta Abajo on the iHeart radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Ruthie Rogers, host of our podcast, Ruthie's Table Four. I like all sorts of things that aren't good for me. Fried chicken. Fried chicken. Donuts. Elton John and his husband, David Furnish, fell in love over food.

It was for Mr. Chow's, and Elton didn't know what I liked, so he ordered the entire menu. I'd marry you the minute somebody did that. Listen to Ruthie's Table Four on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Ruthie's Table 4. Start listening. Well, when you talk about the pressure, I do think that these days parents feel a lot of pressure, but we're like taking on the wrong pressure. We feel responsible for our kids' happiness and success, right? So,

we put a lot of pressure on making sure they achieve, like making sure they don't fail, making sure they don't feel bad or they don't experience disappointments. So, a lot of that emotional energy we're taking on is, in my view, it's misdirected. And it takes a lot of energy if you think that you're responsible for your kid's happiness, right? Wow. And it's a whole lot of energy if you think your kid should always be happy. I mean, that's a current parenting generational angst. Like, no generations before us, you know, cared about whether their kids were happy, let

alone being responsible for your happiness, or that you should be happy all the time. It feels like that's a new phenomenon, right? You know, I mean, we just think of all the work that we do to keep our kids busy and engaged, and we sign them up for this and sign them up for that. And we're taking them here and we're taking them there instead of just going, well, maybe you're gonna be bored today.

What are we doing on Saturday, mom? When I was growing up, the answer was nothing. And my mother went on with her day. We're kind of taking on a lot of that. My mom always said that I am going to help you own your life as early as possible. So, you know, so that it's not my life. It's not my failure.

It's not my homework. It's not my going to school. It's yours. And when you start giving your kids their lives early, which means you got to let go, there's a worry in that. But if you start letting go, it's like you got to wake yourself up. You got to make your bed.

You got to wash a plate. You can get to school. you can figure it out. You got to figure it out. And I think these days, parents don't want to, they don't want that process of watching their kids figure it out. And I get it. It is hard to watch the person that you love literally walk into a wall that you see, you know, because our instinct as parents is go, sweetie, no, no, no. literally walk into a wall that you see.

Because our instinct as parents is to go, sweetie, no, no, no, you are walking right into a wall. Let me stop you and sit you here and be safe with me. Now I feel better, right? And the truth is that sometimes, at least I've learned with my kids, they have to walk into that wall. They have to bump their head hard. And it hurts me to see it,

but I found that they learn faster that way than me keeping them from bumping their heads. And there's a release with that. It's like, it's a different kind of difficult thing that you're dealing with, right? You're dealing with your own emotions and watching somebody that you care about go through tough stuff.

But there's no other way to get them to be independent other than dealing with that pain, right? And I always say, as I told Barack, I was like, you know, we either do this stuff early and deal with it, have these hard kind of conversations, deal with these mistakes and failures when they're 10 and five and 13, then rather than having them live in our basement at 35

for the rest of their lives. It's like, I don't want a kid in my basement. So I've been, our parents parented us not to be in their basement. You pay your bills, you handle your business. That's our motto. Are you handling your business? That's a certain kind of parenting, but if you make that investment early, you know, if you do the hard things, if you make your kids sleep in their bed, if you tell them

no when they're five, if you teach them boundaries and don't let them talk back and help them be socialized beings by setting forth some real hard to manage boundaries at three and four and five, you're not even dealing with a lot of these issues at 16 because they've practiced something else in your presence. And so now 16, 20, our girls, all of our kids are joys to be with. They all live on their own. Our kids have an Obama tax that we will continue to pay just to cost on their life that is not their own.

So there are certain places that they cannot live where they can afford to live. There's certain things like that. But all of our kids, they don't want our help because they get gratification in saying they did this. And that comes down to choosing the college that they're going to go to. I may not agree with you. It happened. It's like, I don't think you're going like that school, but it's gotta be your choice.

You know, I don't think you're gonna like that girlfriend. It's gotta be your choice. I gotta look the other way. I gotta, and then I've gotta be there with you after you make that mistake going, it's okay. Let's talk about it. What did you learn? Let's, you know, but I,

my mother was staying out of our lives very early in our lives. And I think that's something that makes parenting easy in one way, but emotionally difficult in another way. Yeah, wow. And I really, really appreciate the clarification of reprioritizing that pressure. Because the pressure we're placing, as you said, on the winning, the succeeding, the... it's almost misplaced. There's a distinction that I'm hearing from both of you in coddling an individual and cultivating independence. And when we think of more love or more support, we think fix, solve, control.

Yes. Done. Right? That's what we think love is. We think love means you have no problems. That's right. We took care of everything. Yeah.

And we're here for everything that you need. That's right. And actually what we've realized is love is setting someone up to carry themselves. Exactly. And fix themselves and serve themselves. And feeling the confidence in being able to do that. They, competence is love too.

And, you know, I always want my kids to know that I do trust that you have good sense. I do. You can do this. Watch you do it and just see how kids light up when they accomplish something on their own. And when you're, if you're the fixer, you're robbing your kids of that sense of self-satisfaction. I failed, it hurt, but it was me. But when I succeed, it's also me. And sometimes, you know, as parents, we want that victory. Yeah. That's what I was going to say.

Mish does a good job talking about how people don't like friction. And sometimes you need friction as a parent, especially those who are doing the coddling. They're doing that for themselves. You are not helping your kid by doing it because parenting this way is hard and it causes friction in your insides.

When we say, okay, you can take your scooter to the store and go pick up some stuff and bring it back, that's hard. It would have been easy for me to take you to the store and make sure you got back in the car. And nothing made me feel better about doing this kind of stuff. It was when I found out that our parents were deathly afraid of us traveling on our own.

Miesch had an opportunity to go to France. I played bitty basketball and there was a trip to Kansas City and to New Orleans. And we came to find out later that our parents were fearful of us going on these, but they did it. For the reasons we talked about. The same reasons we talked about, but they did it anyway because they knew it was important for our development. And I just thinking about the agita in their stomachs. Yeah. When they're letting go of a, you know, your kids are leaving town.

And doing things they never did. They never did. They never got to travel when they were young. They didn't have the resources. They didn't go to college. They didn't go off their block out of their neighborhoods, you know. So imagine the fear of sending your kids to do something, to go on to Princeton, you know? The day they let him leave to go to some school

and some place where they knew nothing about the rituals, the prestige, you know, the kind of confidence in your parenting philosophy that it would take to execute that. When we were growing up in a community where people's parents wouldn't even fill out their FAFSA forms because they were afraid of their kids going to college.

So they held on to their kids. They said, go to the state school down the street because it will make me, deep down, it will make me feel better because I don't want to let you go. Don't go out of state. Don't leave the home. Don't go out of the neighborhood. A lot Don't go out of state. Don't leave the home. Don't go out of the neighborhood.

A lot of parents parent out of fear, and it's fear for themselves. It's real fear for sure. Do not get me wrong. It's the hardest thing to do, which is what makes parenting so hard, which is why people really have to think before they bring kids into the world.

Because it's hard. It's hard in some really obvious reasons and it's hard in some ways that you will never understand until that little person is breathing in this world, how they will make you feel. You will love nothing more. So I understand it. But that's why we get a lot of it wrong, because we're operating out of fear sometimes. We've talked a lot about the differences

in how you were parented, how things have changed. And I feel like one of the biggest talking points of today for parents and children is therapy. Like therapy seems to be a conversation that's opened up that a previous generation either didn't have access to, didn't believe in, couldn't afford, didn't value, which some of those challenges still exist today

with affordability and accessibility. But what have been your personal journeys with therapy as a form of working on your own self and then of course your children as well? I would say I was your typical guy when it came to therapy and typical guy of color, because I wasn't exposed to therapy until I got to college and I found out that kids my age were going to therapy.

And I was like, well, what is going on in that head? Because I didn't understand it. Now you jump ahead and in my first marriage, that was when it hit, when it started to have trouble, we would go to couples therapy and then I would go to therapy on my own. And I realized that my last statement about not knowing what therapy was and not doing it, I just did it in a different way.

My therapy was the barber shop. It wasn't church for me because I wasn't a church goer, but for some people it's church. But for me, it is fellowship with my good friends that I can tell stuff to. But I wasn't a real therapy guy until I had trouble in my first marriage. But I'm happy to say that my two older children are regular therapy goers and it just warms my heart because it wasn't like I said, you know, you guys

should go to therapy. They just kind of did it on themselves. So I am a big believer in it. And I'm sure people have used this analogy before, but we tune up just about everything in our lives. We tune up our cars, we tune up our electronics, but we don't tune up our minds and our emotions, and we should. And I have to say that you got into therapy I think before I did and that kind of opened my eyes to it too even before I was having trouble in my marriage.

So you can share your experience. I believe in all the therapies that Craig just outlined. I believe in the friendship therapy. I believe in the power of sharing your challenges with other people that you trust. And that can come in many forms and it has for me. I am a talker and I think, you know, our family was, you know, our first therapy was the kitchen table, right? And our first therapists

were our parents and our family members, because you'd have an experience that you needed to, something you needed to let off your chest, something you had to let go of. And we had parents that created a safe space to speak openly and honestly. They didn't treat us like children at that table. They treated us like thinking beings. So it was very early on that we learned the power of our own thoughts and to trust our own emotions. And when something felt off, you know, we were encouraged as like, no, you're not crazy.

You're seeing what you're seeing. And yeah, your anger, that anger is real, but you can't show it this way. We were validated at our table, and that's what therapy is. It's a validation. And so very early on, I sought out the company of girlfriends,

friends I could trust and that we could talk to, and we could have that validation and present honestly. And as I said in my book, The Light, you know, I cultivated those tables throughout my life. You know, I had those table, I needed that table in college. When I was, we were one of a few black kids on an all-white Ivy League school campus. We needed a safe place to go, which might have been the Third World Center, right, where minority students gathered. I found a mentor in an older administrator who was my confidant during those days.

Small, mini sessions, right? Then when I got married and started having kids, I built this amazing community. We built together this amazing community of moms parenting young kids and babies. We started getting together every Saturday, taking our kids to all the activities, but sitting around, maybe opening a bottle of champagne and shedding our feelings and our fears and exchanging ideas. But I've also been to a formal therapist because, as Craig said, I think we need to be coached throughout our lives.

And I think therapy is a form of coaching where somebody objective can come in and say, have you thought about this this way? You're entering a new phase of life. How are you thinking about it, having somebody that has a skill set to help you shape a paradigm, I fully believe in that, I believe in couples therapy, I believe in it all, whatever works for you.

And at this phase in my life, I'm in therapy right now because I'm transitioning, you know? I'm 60 years old. I finished a really hard thing in my life with my family intact. I'm an empty nester. My girls are in, you know, they've been launched. And now for the first time, as I've said before,

every choice that I'm making is completely mine. I now don't have the excuse of, well, my kids need this or my husband needs that or the country needs that. So how do I think about this next phase? And let me get some help. Let me unwind some old habits. Let me sort through some old guilt that I've been carrying around. Let me talk about how my relationship with my mother has affected how I think about things. So I'm getting that tune up for this next phase because I believe this is a whole other phase in life for me. And I now have the wisdom to know, let me go get some coaching while I'm doing it so that I've got other voices other than the

people who know me best. I've got a voices other than the people who know me best. I've got a new person that's getting to know me and seeing me completely new and hearing all these emotions. I am an advocate of it. Everybody needs to find their form of it the best way they can. For some people, it's podcasts like ours that are providing people with that therapy. And it's one of the reasons why I'm excited about doing these things, coming on yours and developing IMO, because I hope that maybe for the people who are a little bit skeptical

of it, that these forms become the place where they start at least getting some ideas, you know, and thinking, well, I never thought of it that way. I never saw it that way. And maybe they'll never go to therapy, but they come here for 90 minutes and they find some answers for themselves. I firmly believe in it. I'm Camila Ramon, Peloton's first Spanish speaking

cycling and tread instructor. I'm an athlete, entrepreneur, and almost most importantly, a Perreo enthusiast. And I'm L athlete, entrepreneur, and almost most importantly, a perreo enthusiast. And I'm Liz Ortiz, former pro soccer player and Olympian and like Kami, a perreo enthusiast. Come on, who is it? Our podcast, Hasta Bajo, is where sports, music, and fitness collide.

And we cover it all, de arriba hasta abajo. Sit downs with real game changers in the sports world, like Miami Dolphins CMO Priscilla Shoemade, who is redefining what it means to be a Latina leader. It all changed when I had this guy come to me. He said to me, you know, you're not Latina. First of all, what is that? I'm out this wide open. Yeah.

Historymakers like the Sukar family, who became the first Peruvians to win a Grammy. It was a very special moment for us. It's been 15 years for me in this career. Finally things are starting to shift into a different level. Listen to Hasta Bajo on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King and our dear friends, Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Each week, we'll sit down with inspiring figures like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter, and their plus one, their ride

or die, as they share stories never heard before about their remarkable journey. Listen to My Legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This is My Legacy. You are cordially invited to the hottest party in professional sports. I'm Tisha Olin, former golf professional and the host of Welcome to the Party, your newest obsession about the wonderful world that is women's golf. Featuring interviews with top players on tour like LPGA superstar Angel Yin. I really just sat myself down at the end of 2022

and I was like, look, either we make it or we quit. Expert tips to help improve your swing and the craziest stories to come out of your friendly neighborhood country club. The drinks were flowing. They were like, torquing all over the place, vaping. They're shotgunning. They're pissing in the middle of the course.

Women's golf is a wild ride, full of big personalities, remarkable athleticism, fierce competition, and a generation of women hell-bent on shanking that glass ceiling. Welcome to the Party with Tisha Olin is an iHeart Women's Sports Production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. Listen to Welcome to the Party, that's P-A-R-T-E-E on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I love what you were saying about

needing them at transitions. When we're shape shifting and molding and it's almost like ever since someone graduates if they went to college, it's like from that point on you're just left to figure it out. And it's almost like ever since someone graduates, if they went to college, it's like from that point on, you're just left to figure it out. And it's almost like there were these markers, like when you went from elementary school to high school to college, there were markers and there were transitions and there were summers in between where you knew what was coming next.

And then you become an adult and then now there's not really the... Well, there are the markers of get married, you have kids, And then you become an adult. And then now there's not really the mark. Well, there are the markers of get married. You have kids, you get to a career success or whatever it is. The kids leave, as you said. But there's no real transitionary summers anymore. There's not, not everyone's talking to you about, Hey, what's going on?

And, and also there's less, there's less formal training for those transitions that are so emotionally tough. Because you're almost grieving an identity you had, but then knowing there's a new version that exists and that push and pull of do I stay or do I go in all of areas of your life. And I wonder, Michel, from your perspective, and then of course from yours as well, Craig, and you mentioned their guilt. Like, I was like, what was the, what is the guilt that you feel you've,

you're having to learn to let go of, or in the beautiful upbringing you had, like, what were the things that you're like, but these are certain ideas that aren't serving us anymore or aren't helping. To whom much is given, much is expected. I feel incredibly blessed in this life, you know, and it's almost like knocking on wood. It's like, let me never take it for granted.

Let me always find ways of giving back. And so the guilt comes from, am I doing enough? You know, which is a form of, am I enough? Right? That's the guilt of feeling, should I do this next thing? Should I say yes when I say no? I mean, because there's so many requests, there's so much you can possibly do in life

that you could never stop. And I do hold guilt to tell somebody that is asking for help or needs something to say, I can't or I don't want to. To even say those words, it's hard to, I don't want to do that right now. It's like unpacking that, right? So to say that to, for me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist, you know,

I mean, my therapist is like, what? You still think you haven't done enough? And I was like, honestly, yeah. So let's unpack that. So yeah, that's probably what overachievers, we're all dealing with that in some way, right? When's enough's enough. Where's the bar? Who sets it?

We're setting it for ourselves and we keep setting it so incredibly high at all times. And then I'm thinking about, oh, what am I modeling for my girls? It's like at some point, you know? I used to say this to Rosalynn Carter, you know, the Carters, they were giving until they were, you know, they couldn't walk, you know? And when I was in the White House every year, Rosalynn Carter would set up a meeting, you know,

cause she would want to talk to a set of issues and things she wanted to do and update me on everything. She was just, she was just, she was, she, they were those people constantly doing, and I used to joke with her when she was in, how old must she have been when I'm in office that requires math? So let's say she was in her early eighties or, you know, she was an older woman who had done enough. And I used to joke, it's like, if you don't stop because you're my bar, right?

And I don't know that I want to be coming to the White House with an agenda list when I'm in my 80s, right? But then I realized it's like, well, that's her bar. That doesn't have to be my bar. What if my bar is different? And so now I'm practicing out some different bars for myself, right? Some different limits and seeing how I really feel in those limits rather than what I think I'm supposed to do. So, you know, that's, you know, it just makes me sigh just saying it, but that's how my brain works. And so sometimes you need help with right sizing your thinking. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for being so open and vulnerable, because I know it takes a lot to be able to say what you're saying in therapy to say it out loud. And I can see the emotion in your face that it's not, you know, something you're grappling with. It's real.

So you're working on it right now. And, and I hope that gives everyone who's listening, I know it will give everyone who's listening and watching courage to think, yeah, you know, like maybe I'm setting the bars too high for myself, you know, whatever that may be, or a different question, but thank you. Great. Sorry. I'd love to.

No, no, no. I actually thought Mish was going to touch on this a little earlier, but our mom, and you've been so gracious to say nice things about us and our success and all the wonderful things that we've been able to do. Marianne Robinson, our mom, used to say, my kids aren't any different from the kids they grew up with. And she is absolutely right.

She would say, I was fortunate enough not to have to go to work, and we encouraged them to work hard. They never said you had to get straight A's. They just said, work hard, have high self-esteem, treat people nicely. But she always bragged on the kids who we grew up with and kids around the globe.

Yeah, she would say, there are a million Michelle, Craig, and Barack's in the world. She would say that. That would be the first thing. And that's, I take that to heart. Yeah. And that's where my guilt is. I am fortunate to be sitting here,

talking to Jay Shetty in his studio about myself. It just is, it's almost embarrassing because I feel like my mom, I grew up with a ton of guys who could have been bond traders. Could have been easy. And they just had some different decisions and different parenting and different-

Different bumps in the road. Bumps in the road that they couldn't handle. And I do feel guilty about that, which- Sort of like survivor's remorse. Yeah, and it explains my sort of wanting to be philanthropic with my time, my emotions, my stories, because they're but for the grace of God, right? And so when she would say that, I would,

it'd be like, what are you gonna say? She's absolutely right. She is absolutely right. And she led by example. So not only did she parent us, but she was up at the school parenting other people, helping. I remember when she taught this kid how to multiply.

And she said to him- She's like a room parent. She wasn't the teacher. She was just coming up to the school to help the teacher. And she said to him- She's like a room parent. She wasn't the teacher. She was just coming up to the school to help the teacher. Before they were room parents, she just came up and volunteered. And she was teaching this young kid who was in my grade, fourth grade, how to multiply, and he just couldn't figure it out. And she said, multiplication is just adding multiple times. And he was like, well, I can't figure this out.

And she said, use your fingers. And he said, I don't want to use my fingers. I'm in fourth grade. I'm embarrassed to use my fingers. And my mom would say, well, then don't show anybody. Just put your hand on your desk and press down on your fingers. I was like, that's ingenious.

That's ingenious. But she was sharing the kind of knowledge with others that we got that every day, every day. So I feel a little bit of survivor's guilt when it comes to the opportunities that I've had in my life because I do feel like she does that it could have been anybody. You've both been so gracious and generous with your time today. I could truly talk to you for another three hours, but I'm going to end with one last question for you each. Well, maybe two.

One last question for you each. It would be for you to share with each other what you believe your mother would be most proud of, but of each other. Yeah, right. I'm going to make him start so that I don't start crying. If you could say what your mother would be most proud about, Michelle, if she was here with us today. There's so many things that my mom would be proud of. She would be proud of her as a parent. Another one of her greatest compliments was the fact that she never had to worry about her grandkids.

That warms both of our hearts because as Miesh said, our older kids are off and running and not bounced back. And that made her feel like our older kids are off and running and not bounced back. That made her feel like she taught us how to be good parents. And it was the gift of allowing her to be just grandma. Just a cool grandma, because she didn't have to discipline or raise or house.

She could just come over and candy for everybody, She didn't have to discipline or raise or yeah, house. She could just come over and candy for everybody, jump on the couch and do whatever you want. And she really relished in that role. I think she would be proud of Mish for that. I think she would be proud of how Mish has been able to have a colossal effect on so many people. And that is White House notwithstanding. White House is gone. Look at what she's doing now. It is a massive, massive lift, uplift for so many people who don't get to, to, you know, be her sister, be her brother or be her husband or, or child.

So I think those are two really good things. But most importantly, she would be very proud that she is a terrific wife because we all revered my father, all of us. My mom, the kids, all of our relatives. He was like the beacon in our family. And my mom was tough on him, but she loved him. And Mish reminds me of that with her relationship with Barack, just because you're the president

of the United States doesn't mean you're getting off easy. My mom would like that, but then she would be like, he's got a lot of stuff going on, don't be so hard on him. You know what I mean? It's just, I think she would appreciate that. I like that, Craig, that's a good one. I'm a podcaster now. Yeah, yeah.

Round us off, Michelle. Well, what sums it up is that mom would be so proud of the fact that you're a good man in the world and that you have been a good father, fathering for a long, long time and passing on the, that's a dig because he's an old dad, right? This is still a long, long, long time. But passing on the wisdom, you know, showing up in the world in a way that would make dad proud, living out his view of what it means to be a man, and then sharing that with a lot of other men. I mean, the fact that you, she would be proud of the fact that you walked away from a lucrative career in finance to help other young men figure out how they can be fast and strong, but good too,

and build a life for themselves. That you've taken that same wisdom and you're finding ways to continue to multiply it. To whom much is given, she'd be proud of that. And that you're still here right by my side. I think that would make her proud. Thank you both so much. I am so grateful to welcome you to The Wilder podcasting. I hope everyone who's listening or watching goes and subscribes to IMO.

You're going to get so much wisdom, so much insight from two of the smartest, brightest minds, but two people who have such sweet, soft hearts. And I love that combination that you both bring of being absolutely bold powerhouses. But in the times I've got to know you both and spend with you both, you also have the most beautiful hearts and that combination is unstoppable.

And I am so excited to see what you both do in this next season of your life. Thanks Jay. Thanks Jay. I'm a friend, supporter, and lover. You are family. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. to see what you both do in this next season of your life. Thanks Jay. I'm a friend and supporter of Russia. You are family. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Yeah, we just have to meet your sister. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to drag her up here. Hook her by crook. We're going to drag her up here. Thank you. Thank you both so much. Thanks, man.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you. No wonder our kids are struggling.

We have a new technology and we've just taken it in hook, line and sinker. And we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be thumbing through this stuff, you know, their minds never sleeping. You are cordially invited to the hottest party in professional sports. I'm Tisha Allen, former golf professional and the host of Welcome to the Party, your newest obsession about the wonderful world that is women's golf. Featuring interviews with top players on tour, tips to help improve your swing, and the craziest stories to come out of your friendly neighborhood country club. Welcome to the Party with Tisha Allen is an iHeart Woman Sports Production in

partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. Listen to Welcome to the Party. That's P-A-R-T-E-E on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Camila Ramon. And I'm Liz Ortiz. And our podcast, Hasta Bajo, is where sports, music, and fitness collide. And we cover it all. This season, we sit down with history makers like the Sucar family, who became the first Peruvians to win a Grammy. It was a very special moment for us.

It's been 15 years for me in this career. Finally, things are starting to shift into a different level. Listen to Asta Waho on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends, Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin

Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter. Listen to My Legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is My Legacy.