On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Michelle Obama: How to Stay with Your Partner When They Are Changing & 4 Check-ins You Should Be Doing in Your Relationship

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

Do you want to learn how to strengthen your relationship over time?  Do you want to have better communication and expectations with your partner?  On this very special episode of On Purpose, Jay Shetty sits down with the former First Lady of the country, Michelle Obama. During Michelle’s time as First Lady, Michelle launched several initiatives, including "Let's Move!" which aimed to combat childhood obesity, and "Reach Higher," promoting higher education. Her memoir "Becoming," released in 2018, became one of the best-selling books of that year and took the world by storm. Today we sit down to talk about her most recent book, “The Light We Carry.”  In this raw conversation, Michelle opens up about her thoughts on marriage, fame, and public service. She talks about the toxicity of social media and technology that affects our mental health and how to be open to the changes and possibilities people bring with them. She also talks about how negative news and social updates are affecting our society and the community we are in. We also dive deep into relationships and  why we put so much pressure on our marriage, how to choose the right person for you and make the relationship work even when it isn’t perfect, and how to practice constructive arguments with your partner. In this interview, you’ll learn: How to think freely and independently How to take care of your mental health How to become a supportive partner How deal with negativity How to become an effective leader How to make your marriage last   Together we’ll learn how to find calm amid life's noise, give people the space to be seen and heard, and explore topics that resonate with the very fabric of our personal growth journey. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:18 What is the Best Part of Being You? 02:16 What’s Your Longest Friendship? 03:16 The Struggle of Leaving the People You Love Behind 06:36 Be Open to the Possibilities of People 11:36 What’s the Hardest Part of Being You? 14:23 When You Lose a Piece of Yourself 16:48 What Keeps You Up at Night? 19:00 Allow Your Brain to Rest from the Noise 24:26 Mindful Usage of Technology 26:48 We Consume More Negative News Daily 31:03 How Do You Sustain a Successful Relationship? 35:33 The Non-Negotiables in Any Relationship 37:08 You Are Responsible for Your Own Happiness 42:50 What is Your Fight Style? 48:42 Giving People Space to Be Seen and Heard 53:15 What Offends You the Most? 54:39 The Best Personal Growth Moments 59:59 Conclusion with Michelle Obama Episode Resources: Michelle Obama | Instagram Michelle Obama | Facebook. Michelle Obama | Books Obama Foundation  The Light We Carry: Overcoming in Uncertain Times See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. It could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Maybe you're planning a ski getaway this winter. While you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra money toward the trip. Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca-hosed.

Hi, Jennifer Colopus here with the new season of My Overcomefer Podcast. What's overcomefer all about? It's about inspiring confidence in all of us and choosing calling over comfort. Every Tuesday I'll be having real and honest conversations. You'll hear it from me first before any cheeseman hits your social media feed. Join me as I create a space where opening up is not only okay, it's encouraged. Listen to Over Comfort Podcast with Jenna Colopas on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. There's such a thing as knowing too much.

You've been married to the President of the United States who knows everything about everything in the world. Sometimes you just, a phenomenally successful author. Please welcome the former First Lady of these United States, Michelle Obama. I know what people looking at me and Barack like. Hashtag couples' goals. No, no. There are some broken things

that happen even in the best of marriages. What is the thing that keeps you up at night now? Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community, to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button, I love your support, it's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started.

I can't wait to go on this journey with you, thank you so much for subscribing, it means the world to me. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, Thank you so much for tuning in today. I am so excited for today's episode, but before we do that, make sure you subscribe so you never miss out on any future episodes. I've got so many more exciting guests that I can't wait for you to listen to. And today's guest is, course the one, the only Michelle Obama, we're talking about her book, The Light We Carry. If you don't already have it, make sure you go and grab it. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. Michelle, thank you so much for joining me on

purpose. This is such an honor. I'm so grateful to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm a fan. That is, that means more to me than you know. Thank you so much. And I'll dive straight in. What is the best part about being you? I have never thought about that. That is a great question. I think my family, my friendships, I think one of the things that Barack and I,

we always talk about is that we're proud of the fact that we've kept our community. You know, people that we've known all our lives are still a part of that community that keeps us solid and keeps us whole and grounded. It's easy to lose your head on this journey that we've been on. And I think what keeps us focused is that we've had, we have some solid people in our lives and we make it a point to cultivate those relationships and to learn to be intentional about them. And I think that that's probably one of the coolest things is that, you know, I've got

this big kitchen table of people who keep me focused and keep me honest. What's the longest friendship there, non-family? Like what's the, in the years, would you say? The longest friendship. I mean, gosh, childhood friendships I still have. I've sort of picked up friends throughout every part of my life. I've got one or two. I've got the high school friends that I keep in touch with, the college friends, the law school friends. You know, so you sort of gather people throughout. And I've had a lot of people who've sort of just hung in there before we were the Obama's. Yeah. How does that work? I feel like so many people who are on their journey,

a lot of us don't take steps forward because we're scared of what our friends will think. Some of us get carried away with success and ego and pride goes to your head and then you alienate people. Sometimes it's envy and jealousy from everyone else who didn't join you on the journey. How do you navigate a multi-decade level friendship

when everyone is going through so much? What are the kind of key milestones that make you think that kitchen table? You know, I talk about this journey like climbing Mount Everest. You start not that I've ever done that, by the way. But what I've heard about climbing Mount Everest is that you start out at base camp and then

you hit these summits along the way and everybody starts out the journey ready, you know, they think I'm going to make it to the top. And then you start the climb and some people are ready for it and some people aren't. And it's surprising that you learn along the climb who's really ready. And there are people who just emotionally, physically, can't go the whole way. They run out of oxygen, you know. They weren't fit for the climb, right?

And one of the hardest things is like when you discover that, I mean, do you stop? Do you go back because there was one member that wasn't ready? Or do you keep climbing and sort of leave them where they are? And we found that that's kind of been the pattern, right? There are people who have been, they were built for the climb like we were and some weren't. And I find that I talk to young people about this too,

because when you're a kid coming from nothing, and I won't say that I came from nothing, but brought nor I came from wealth or connection or fame or fortune. So we have a hodgepodge of people in our lives. And one of the toughest things is to find out that a dear friend lives. And one of the toughest things is to find out that a dear friend wasn't ready for the climb. And in order to keep pressing forward, we tell young people that sometimes you got to leave them there because you can't carry people when you're trying to get to the top. It slows you down. But there's, you know, survivors remorse that comes with it. And I know there, you know, a lot of times when I talk to kids and I see them well up, I see in them that struggle

that they've reached a point where they've left people they love behind and they struggle to figure out how to weather or how to maintain those connections and it becomes hard and it's draining. Kids, for example, who got the opportunity to go to college when half their family isn't eating. Yes. And they've got a student loan,

and they need to use that loan to pay for their books, but they're trying to send money back home to pay the electric bill. And I tell those kids, like, if you want to make it, you've got to make some hard choices about what to do with your life or you will not make the climb yourself. And then everyone loses.

And then everybody loses. And I think that's how we've had to look at it. We've been fortunate enough that we've had so many people who were ready for the climb. They had to adjust, they had to go back and do a little workin' out. But for the most part, they've made it, but for the people who couldn't, we had to leave them and do a little working out. But for the most part, they've made it, but for the people who couldn't,

we had to leave them behind and keep climbing. And if once we made it to the top, if we could reach back and pull some others up, we definitely did that. It is one of the greatest challenges when you are pursuing a life that is drastically different from the one that you've come from. Is this such a thing as a graceful end?

Well, it depends on who's doing the ending, right? Yes. Sometimes, you know, sometimes I say there's such a thing as the slow ghost, you know, where you just sort of let relationships take their natural course. Friendships and relationships kind of tell you when they're ready. Yeah, that's so true. And you have to kind of listen to it. You learn as you get older.

Sometimes you held on too long, you let some bad jujus stay around too long. And as you get older, you can recognize, right? I've always approached life and friendships, and I try to tell my daughters this too, is stay open. Stay open to the possibility of people. I never want my daughters, and I never wanted to feel so high that I was closed off and suspicious,

not wanting to let new people in, right? And that becomes very difficult when you're the president and the first lady. You know, you could, you know, close your life off so much, right? Because everyone might want something from you. But I always felt like, well, that's a loss, you know, because if you close everybody out, then you miss some gyms. We've tried to be open and find ways to let new people in our lives and develop new relationships. And what I tell my kids is, trust your gut, because you'll know when people should be let out. But keep your aperture wide open.

Let people in, but when they show you who they are, let them out quickly. And as older you get, you know, it's like, yeah, that wasn't, this one isn't working out. So let's just cut it quick, but stay open. And you're naturally going to make mistakes. You're naturally going to get hurt. You're naturally not going to read everyone perfectly.

So true. That's going to happen, but it's better to be aware, know down the lesson, but be open in the first place because being closed is worse. You miss out on the goodness, the possibility, the opportunity, the new, right? And I never want to miss out on the new. I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt,

bring them in and let them disappoint me. It's like I can deal with disappointment. I can get overheard, but I don't want to lose the possibility of someone special coming in. Wow. That's the greater trade-off. That's so powerful. And it's proven to be the right approach.

You know, we've just met some wonderful people along this journey. And gosh, if I had closed myself off to that, I, oh, I think of the friendships, the influences that I wouldn't have had. So I want my girls to stay open. You know, I want them to be open people. Yes, I had a mentor in London probably around 10 years ago and he devised this set of questions that gives you your personality type. And there's so many tests like this.

Yes, yes. But his was really interesting and it's very aligned with your thinking. So, and he also had types where we'd get locked and he'd called this CSC. He said the more closed, the more specific and the more controlling you get, the less you're able to actually connect, grow, evolve, learn. And he would always say, as you're saying, the more open, random, and supportive

you are, the more likely you are to be able to invite people into your life at different times. And I love hearing that because, yeah, that change from close select, or close selective and controlling to open, random, and supportive. He was saying, you never know, you can have a random interaction with someone who could be the most beautiful lesson of your life. And I also felt that, you know, when you're the president of the United States and the first lady, you have to be open. You have to be open to all the possibilities. You can't live in your fortress and govern the people, right?

And I think we benefit it from the fact that we had to figure out how to be regular people in the White House because we had kids in school. And so we couldn't become just White House people. We had to get to know that community and go to parent teacher conference and make friends with other parents because we wanted our kids' lives to be normal. But that in a way kept me connected with people

and what they were really feeling and what their challenges were and it keeps me open and empathetic to people because I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my castle looking out at everybody else. Absolutely. So I found it particularly necessary in our role. Yeah, so that's the best thing that's beautiful.

What has been the worst or the hardest part about being you? Well, I think it's the flip side of that coin of that, when you're on the top of Mount Everest, it can be isolating and dystopic in a way. I think one of the greatest things that we've learned to appreciate in this role, And I tell young people, especially young people who think they want fame. You know, it's like, do you know what that is? You know, are you grasping for something?

You have no idea or your parents pushing you towards this thing is that when you become famous, well known, you lose your anonymity. That's a tough thing to lose. It's a price. It's a huge price, right? The natural everyday thing of sitting and being able to sit in the world and observe it and not be observed, right? Wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it. Yeah, just sort of sitting in a park and watching the world happen with nobody pulling you out of it, right? The simple walk through a park or standing in line at the grocery store and overhearing

life. We don't have that, you know, we don't have spontaneity in the same way. And that's a hard thing to lose. Now here's the thing. Fortunately, we lost it. We lost it in our 40s. I just think of kids who are reaching for it, not knowing that you're about to lose a really valuable thing. You want to, you're striving to lose it

and you're only 18, 20. You don't want to lose your anonymity. You don't want to trade that off for anything in the world because once you lose it, you lose a lot more. We've adjusted, right? Because we're adults. So yes, I can figure out how to make one move, go on a walk, visit a friend, but I have to call like 12 people and I have to think about the

movements and security has to be lined up. We can't do the ordinary things of life, you know, go to a movie theater or I joked at COVID when people asked when we were all in quarantine. How did it feel? And I was like, well, it was kind of easy for us because we've lived in quarantine for like, you know, a decade. And so you learn to live in the smaller footprint. But it's, that's a tough thing that I don't think people think about when they think of power and fame. And there's some downsides to it. Yeah.

And what do people want the most from you? And because I love the idea of what you were saying of being open, it's so, that mindset is so special. Yeah. I guess when you are open and then like you said, you can get over that hurt. What is the hurt that you usually have to get over or most commonly that you've had to?

Well, that maybe hurt is too strong of a word. I've heard. Again, because we're older, it's just the loss of a piece of yourself. Right. You know, I mean, people always ask me, I was in Chicago the other day. And every time I go back to Chicago, people are like, do you miss Chicago? I miss the Chicago that we knew before we were here. Wow, it's powerful.

That Chicago is no longer available to us. To you, yes, yeah. You know, the way we loved it in that way. And that's a loss. Is it a hurt? Is it personal? No, it's just the way life is, but it's still a loss. You know my husband loves New York And it was interesting he thought for a second because he's been more isolated than me

He thought for a minute when we leave the White House will live in New York It was like dude you can't live in New York And it's just he cannot access New York. And it's just he cannot access the wonderful city of New York and the way that he remembered when he was in his 20s because guess what we can't do. We can't walk down the street. We can't get on the subway. We can't necessarily walk through Central Park without a big plan. You know, the things that make New York, New York, we can access it. That's the part. I don't, you know, the people part make New York, New York, we can access it. That's the part.

I don't, you know, the people part, the connection to people part. I never get exhausted by that because I'm open. Right. So it's not the people. It's a great distinction. Right. It's just the way you want to live your life, especially when you're open, right? You want to be open.

You want to be in the midst of people, and we've lost that. Yeah. I think what's beautiful about this book, The Light We Carry, and the coming is it shows us just how many trials, challenges, setbacks that you've had to overcome and that you've gone through in your life so elegantly, gracefully, tactfully, you know, with so much determination and drive.

And I'm intrigued that after having overcome so much, like you said, climbing Mount Everest, using that as our analogy, what is the thing that keeps you up at night now or what is your biggest fear now after having overcome so many? It has less to do with me personally and more to do with the world that we're in. There's such a thing as knowing too much. When you've been married to the President of the United States who knows everything about everything in the world, sometimes you just want to try to change. You know too much.

Right. I don't know. I don't want to know what was in that folder that you just got that made you quiet. You know, I don't wanna know why the security just pulled you over. I mean, it could be any range of things that comes across the desk of the leader of the free world, right? So I know a lot about what's going on and what keeps me up are the things that I know,

the war in the region, in too many regions. What is AI gonna do for us? The environment, are we moving at all fast enough? What are we doing about education? Are people gonna vote? And why aren't people voting? Are we too stuck to our phones? I mean, those are the things that keep me up because you

don't have control over them. And you wonder, where are people at? Where are we in this? You know, where are our hearts? What's going to happen in this next election? I am terrified about what could possibly happen because our leaders matter who we select, who speaks for us, who holds that bully pulpit. It affects us in ways that sometimes I think people take for granted. You know, the fact that people think that government, ah, you know, it doesn't really even do anything. And I'm like, oh my God, does government do everything for us? And we cannot take this democracy for granted.

And sometimes I worry that we do. Those are the things that keep me up. What habits of you develop? Because I think people may not have access to the news you do, but I think people can definitely relate. Yes, yes. To what you're saying. Absolutely.

Jam, just seeing all the news on my phone, I'm connected to the TV. I'm hearing things from friends and family. Like, I think a lot of people can relate to you saying, I feel like I know too much. Yeah. What are some of the habits of practices or rules that you've developed that have really become your saving grace?

Because like you said, to you, it's not just a news update. It's a folder. It's the person calling. It's a private meeting. Whatever it may be. You're, in one sense, it's a private meeting, whatever it may be, you're, in one sense, it's even more extreme because you're so privy to the actual reality as opposed to a news channel, which is part of reality. I recently stated in Airbnb when I was on a trip for work. Maybe you've stated in Airbnb before and thought to yourself, this actually seems pretty doable.

Maybe my place can be an Airbnb. Could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Maybe you're planning a ski getaway this winter. While you're away, you could air be in your home and make some extra money toward the trip. Maybe you want to go somewhere warm over the winter. While you're away, you could air be in be your home

and make some extra money toward the trip. Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca-hosed. Craig Ferguson, the Grand Master in the architect of Wisdom, Maharishi of Murth goes in search of joy.

I'm here to help. You'll be speaking with actors, doctors, comedians, and scientists, artists, and athletes, and people of faith in search of extreme happiness. The United States of America, our cram champions of the world. At last, a podcast on a mission,

a podcast that wonders what is joy! Is it love, religion, drugs, success, money, revenge? Is it a surge of chemicals or a deeper awakening? Can it be nurtured, cultivated and refined? Find out! As Craig Ferguson explores the countless ways people find joy! The celebrations that dances the science, poetry, laughter, and music of joy.

Don't miss it. Joy with Crichton Ferguson. Here it now on the I Heart Radio App Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Overcome for Podcasts with Jenna Calopese. Yup, that's me. You may know my late mom, Jenny Rivera, my queen. She's been my guiding light as I bring you a new season of Overcomfort podcast. This season,

I'll continue to discover and encourage you and me to get out of our comfort zones and choose our calling. Join me as I dive into conversations that will inspire you, challenge you, and bring you healing. We're on this journey together. I'm opening up about my life and telling my story in my own words. Yes, you'll hear it from me first before the Cheezman lands on your social media food. If you thought you knew everything, guess again. So I took another test with ancestry

and it told me a lot about who I am and it led me to my biological father. And everyone here, my friends, laugh, but I'm Puerto Rican. Listen to the Overcome for Podcasts with Jenna Calopas as part of Michael Duran Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. One of the most important practices

is deliberately turning that off for a moment or more than a moment. And I encourage that. I think our phones are sort of the regular man's equivalent to what I just described. We're too connected all the time. We're reading too much. We're taking too much in. We are constantly being fed by images. That's become the norm. We've been marketed that that's cool. That's what we should want. But our brains are not.

We are not that sophisticated species. We have not evolved enough to be able to take in that much information on a constant basis. And our kids certainly are not prepared to handle it. I think that plays a huge role in the higher rates of depression and suicide among young people. They've got to let their brains rest from the noise. Even though, you know, we're all trying to fix everything, everyone needs a break from it, right? So I'm very deliberate about knowing that I can't take all that in and we're getting it in such a sort of misinterpreted way, right? We've got, you know, confirmation bias. We're reading only what we already believe. And

I know I have to be very deliberate about, you know, understanding that a lot of the information I'm getting isn't even complete. I do filter, you know. And then I develop habits that shut my brain off to thinking. I wrote in the light about knitting, which is a habit that I developed a hobby that I developed over quarantine. And that's because it makes you so present and so engaged. It shuts your brain down and allows your hands the motion to take over. And in that way I found that it is meditative, right? And that's what meditation is. It's quieting your noisy mind. And some of us can't connect to meditation, but I think we need it. I think biologically,

we need to shut that part of ourselves down to get a rest from it. And I find that knitting does it, exercise does it. Learning something physical shuts my mind down. I mean, I've taken up tennis and there's nothing that shuts my mind down then running after a green ball and trying to figure out. Move your feet, hit the ball, follow through. It's like, yeah, that shuts my mind down for the hour and 90 minutes that I'm doing that thing. I'm not worrying. I'm breathing. I'm outside. I'm letting the sun hit my face. I am those habits

and routines of creating something, right? And we do that less and less now. It's like everything is all in the mind. It's all technology. But I think we need something where the thing I love about knitting is that at the end of it, I've made something. You know, it's just satisfying in a very different way from problem solving or analysis, right?

Building, creating, painting, drawing, fixing, putting something real into the world that came from your own hands. Something small, you know, that's why I talk about the power of small in the light we carry because a lot of times our brains are trying to do the big fix. And that's when we feel hopeless and we're tired because most of us don't have the power to fix anything at a big scale. But we can focus on the small things that we have control over. Making a sweater for your daughter, helping mentor a child in your neighborhood, loving the children you bring into the world and making sure they have everything

they need. That's where change happens, right? And when I do those kinds of activities, I meditate into that power, right? That small power. That there is satisfaction from hitting a stupid ball over a net, you know, and getting a good swing out of it. It's like it makes the day better because I serve the ball right or I finished a scarf. I love that you're so right. I'm so glad you're using the word shutting down. Yeah. And this switch to analog. I remember at one point, and I think everyone can relate to this, you wake up to your phone. I'd be brushing my teeth on my phone. Yeah. I'm eating breakfast on my phone. You know, just your phone is now tethered to your hand in every activity that you're doing

throughout the day. And so your brain is never shutting down. And the interesting thing is we all know our phones need a reset, they need an update, they need a software refresh or whatever it may be. And I think I saw somewhere that the human brain today has to process like 74 gigabytes worth of information a day. A day. And I was thinking, I remember when your phone didn't,

it's a lot. And when you think about it, this is a brand new technology. Yes. When we got into the White House, we had Blackberries. Wow. Social media wasn't a thing.

All of that came into being in the eight years that we were in the White House. And it's just gone off like a rocket ship. We don't evolve that quickly. Humans, it takes generations for us to evolve. We haven't adapted to this new media. We haven't, we have not biologically adapted. And so no wonder we're stressed.

No wonder we're full of anxiety. No wonder our kids are struggling, you know, because we have a new technology and we've just, we've taken it in hookline and sinker. We're not even questioning how much, you know, the more the merrier, right? I think we need to be very mindful about this new gadget. Yes. And we have to be mindful for our kids because they have no filter, right? They'll just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's never sleeping

and as parents of my generation, we know so little about it. We don't even know how to monitor it. It's like cigarettes, right? Is it good for us? I mean, at one point, everybody smoked. And so we realized, oops, this isn't really, really good for us, right?

I think we have to be cautious about this, this new thing that we're just lapping up. Yeah, I read an article a few years ago, about this, this new thing that we're just lapping up. Yeah, I read an article a few years ago, exactly, it was saying that today we absorb in one day and 24 hours the same amount of tragedy we would in our entire lifetime, 25 years ago. Today we absorb what we would in our entire lifetime

in one day and it felt'll real and that's why people Feel more panic to me. Barack my husband is a he's a fact-based guy He's a science guy sometimes. It's not popular these days, right? I have a president that believes in facts and science and all that stuff, but he's one of those people and He always says says, statistically speaking, especially when young people bemoan where we are today, he says, if you look at history and statistics,

if you were to pick any time in human history to be born, you'd wanna be born now. Crime war, those rights are the lowest, but nobody feels that people feel more unsafe. Why? Because they're they're getting fed images of every crime that happens anywhere, everywhere. Right? And when we were growing up, you just heard your local news. You know, it's just like, oh, there was a fire or that kid. Now we're getting everything, not just from our community, but all over the world. Stuff that's always been happening, we just didn't know about it.

Now we know too much. And we're interpreting that to mean things are horrible. We went through world wars and depressions and famine. This isn't new. It's just we know everything. Yeah, it's one way to look at it. Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think you're right because there's the incomplete information. I like the word incomplete. I appreciate that kind of subtle point. In complete information. Then you have opinions, then you have feelings and emotions, and so there's so much more information on every level. You have the physical information, the emotional information, the mental information, of course, the physical experience of it, and it can

be too much. One of the, it's so interesting you use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest because I went to see a comedy show recently and I'm trying to remember the comedians name so I'll have to find it afterwards and put him in there. But he literally was describing, he was saying relationships are like climbing Mount Everest. And so what he said was, he goes, you start at base camp and he goes, you and your partner are ready, you're ready to go, you're being guided. And then at one point, you're like, oh, we're cold, but it's okay, we'll keep each other warm, we'll be fine.

And then he goes, you get the first stop, and you go, oh yeah, like, have you, did you pack the gloves? Did you pack the gloves? And then your partner goes, oh no, I forgot the gloves. And you're like, oh, it's okay, it's okay. We'll just keep our hands warm. Then you get a bit higher, and then they were like,

now it's got to a point where it's really cold. And you go, why did you forget those gloves? Like, you know, it's like the press, like, come on. Like, why do you forget those gloves? Then you get the next stop, and your partner says to you, like, you pack the sandwiches, right? And then you look at the sandwiches, like, I don't know where the sandwich is.

Anyway, and so you talk about this so much in your work, in your book, like relationships are challenging. They're difficult. I think you've been together enough over 30 years, 31 years. 31 years. 31 years. Congratulations, Jim. I'm super. Yeah.

Okay, amazing. 31 years. Congratulations. That's incredible. And so inspiring in so many ways. My wife and I've been together for 10 years and that counts counts. And, and you know, they definitely like can see the the challenges unforeseen and seen that come with being together over long periods of time. My wife and I, in 2016, we both changed jobs.

So we got married, we changed jobs and moved country. So we moved from London to New York that year. We both quit our jobs in London. I could work here, my wife couldn't at the time because of her visa, and we started new lives, and we obviously moved home. And we were away from our families, and that year was... It brought us closer, thankfully, but it was a very challenging, difficult year because

I've heard that those are some of the hardest things you can do. The only thing we didn't do was have a kid. That's right. And when you covered all the heart pieces. Apart from President the First Lady, I think that takes it. But when you're going for all this challenges, you've talked about these many, many times before. Has there ever been a time when you've said things or done things and afterwards thought, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I didn't say that. What in my marriage? Yes, yes.

Of course. I'd yesterday. I love that. How do you, because you've been together for 30-21 years, how do you rectify something like that when you know, because there's a difference between being spiteful or being silly, but like when you really feel like a shinnon, a shinnon, a shinnon said, they're like, how do you address something that?

You know, that's the practice of relationships, right? After 31 years, yeah, we still do it, but you know it quicker. And then you apologize, you know, you learn how to save my bad, right? And that takes, that takes a second, right? You know, that's how to save my bad, right? And that takes a second, right? You know, that's why I talk about relationships in the light. I talk about marriage because I just think that,

number one, most people don't talk about it. Like, our parents, they talk about your marriage. You didn't talk about your feelings. You didn't talk about your parents didn't tell you about the challenges that we're facing. So why? Why don't we share the whole experience? Because what happens is that by not knowing,

you hit in your relationship some natural, like understandable rough patches, and you want to quit. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's not quit worthy. That's just, that's the, just the nature of things. You know, that's why I joked, it's like, Oh, you're mad at your partner, you, you're mad for a year. And you think the marriage is over. Now, you're going to have decades of, I don't know if I like you, you know, because over the span of a 30-year marriage, yeah,

you cobbled together enough arguments and you got a decade, right? And that's just the way it goes, but you don't quit on it, right? You learn from it. And that's what sustaining a relationship is. It's the choice to figure it out. Not to quit when it gets hard. So yeah, I said something that I didn't mean to say, right? You're five. We might have had hurt feelings and it would have taken days to rectify it.

You're 30. It's like, there she goes again or there he goes again. I know when, how to talk to him about it and when, because we've practiced it. We've made a lot of mistakes, we've gotten it wrong, and after 31 years, we're getting better at it, and it gets better and better and better. You know, look, if you live with your roommate for 30 years,

you would hate them at some point in time, but it wouldn't be some defining thing. You have friendships that they last long, you're gonna have some falling out. Why do we put so much pressure on marriage to not be hard? It's the natural hardest thing you will ever do, which is to try to build a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes, who has a totally different temperament.

Right? And you're like having other people with them. You know, you bring other lives and other personalities into the mix and then life is happening. Of course, it's going to be hard. You know, but I wouldn't trade in my marriage for anything in the world with all the ups and downs, with all the running for president stuff. I was like, what did you do that?

I mean, talk about that being a big gaping transition. Thing in our lives, but the good has outweighed it. And if we hadn't hung in there, we would have missed all the good. And that's what I tell young people like first of all pick well, pick somebody you respect and like start there, right? And then remember that that's who they are. And then understand that with that they are going to be and you are going to be deeply deeply flawed. And you're going to make a whole lot of mistakes. Right. But in the end, you can look that person in the eye and you go, you're still the person

that I like and love and respect. And we can figure this out. Yeah. So I share that because I don't want people looking at me and Barack like hashtag couples goals and not know that no, no, there are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages. Absolutely. And you use that term quit worthy. Is that something that you defined for yourself, what you saw as quit worthy and what you saw as not quit worthy?

That's a good question. Look, I think there are some objective quit worthy things, like criminality. Of course. Abuse. But hey, that's me. There's some people who love through a whole lot of things. So I think that has to be individual.

But if I were talking to my daughters, I wouldn't want them to stay in a marriage that made them feel oppressed that was an overall negative to who they were. I do think there are reasons to walk away from marriage, friendship, a whole job, a whole lot of things, right? So yeah, I have a clear list of like the non-negotiables,

but everybody has their own. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so important that everyone is listening or watching, that idea of having our own quite worthy definition is such a need because it can get really hard to find clarity when you get really deep into something, a practice that I love doing with a lot of my clients

and even people I work with or online is, I ask everyone to write down the needs that they have in their life and then write down the people that fill those needs and it could be themselves too, some of them and then some of them are their friends, their mom, their dad, and of course in your book, we notice your mom's wisdom, right?

She's the Buddha in your life, as you say. You see different people, what are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to fill that you then realized they actually needed before by other people? Oh, that's a good question. I write about it, the fact that we are two very independent, ambitious, smart people, and complex, you know, as individuals.

We, you know, we're dynamic in, you know, I'm not saying that as an ego trip, but- No, you mean you're constantly in flux. That's exactly right. And I learned, it took me a while to learn that, you know, there's no way we could be everything to each other. We have different interests, different goals. There was a stage in my marriage where I thought that's what a partner was supposed to be.

You know, you should call me all the time. We should talk all the time. We should be each other's best friends all the time. Our marriage got better when I got better about that because I think he already had that independence. This notion of, I love you. I don't, even if I don't talk to you today, that to me is like, I don't need that. I felt like I needed more of that. But as I got older, right, I got more mature, more

clear about my own goals. I realized that I, you know, he can't be responsible for my happiness. I have to be responsible for that. I have to define it for myself, have to learn how to achieve it. My husband is definitely a part of that, but he is not. I cannot put him in the center of my happiness. That freed me up to let him be him and let me be me. So I have friends who give me things that my husband doesn't give me. I have girlfriends, one distinction that we have is like, I may talk her.

All right, when I sit down with my girlfriends, we can talk for days. I mean, literally for days, we can take a break for lunch, but we can talk. You know, my husband's not, he can talk, but he will come by a friendship session, you know, nine o'clock in the morning, I have a friend staying with me and he's like, what are y'all talking about?

I was like, well, we're just now getting into our kids. And we're gonna talk about each one of them separately for like an hour, right? He's like, I couldn't do that. Right? He can't be that for me. But I have really good, mostly girlfriends who give me that, you know? We will dissect life to the bitter. We will ring everything out of every subject. And he's like, I think I'm done. I was like, well, you can go be done because I've got her and we just got started. We're going to we got 12 more hours to go, right? I recently stated an Airbnb when I was on a trip for work. Maybe you've stated an Airbnb before and thought to yourself.

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On his new podcast, six degrees with Kevin Bacon, join Kevin for inspiring conversations with celebrities who are working to make a difference in the world, like musical artist, Jewel. And what an equal opportunist misery is, it doesn't care if you're black or white or rich or poor or famous or homeless, if you are raised in misery systems, it's perpetual. Cabin is the founder of the nonprofit organization, 6-Degrees.org. Now he's meeting with like-minded actors who share a passion for change, like Mark Ruffalo. You know, I found myself moving upstate in the middle of this fracking fight that I'm

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And that's so beautiful to hear because I think, especially when we're young, we think that that person has to be all of that. And from the beginning, and all they'll become it, there's the other fallacy of like, oh, well, I know who they could be and who they could become. How much of that did you feel you had to disconnect and detach from, of like, what this person could be?

To you, obviously, not in the world, but. I had to disconnect from all of those beliefs, right? And every couple is different. I found, I know people who are each other's best friends. They'd like to travel together. They'd walk and hold hands. I have friends who are in relationships where they talk like every hour.

I'm like, are you talking to him again? Nothing changed. You know, it's up to the individuals to define that for themselves. For Barack and I. And I think you should be clear about that because the other thing is that when we hold on internally to an expectation of the other person, we don't even share it. So now we're mad that you haven't even filled something. I never even told you I need it. You know, that takes time. That it takes work, which is why marriage is hard, right? Because you'll have the tendency to live in your head

and live out the image of what you want them to be. And you haven't even communicated that to them. That's just one little fraction of the challenge of marriage and friendship and all of that. It's hard, it takes time, but it's worth it. Absolutely, yeah, I think those check-ins are the hardest. I know that there's four check-ins that I try and keep a good habit around with my wife that have really helped me. One of them is every day I'll ask her, like, what was your highlight today? What did you learn today?

Something positive, something like, what's the best thing to happen to you today? I want to know because it's so easy for us to get so busy in our days, not see each other all day, not speak all day, and days can go by like that too because we're all too traveling. Then every week I try and ask you, like, what can I help you with this week? Like, is there something coming up that I just need to be aware of? Yeah.

Sometimes it's just information. And that gives me an opportunity to also tell you, I've got a really stressful week coming up. Right. Just know that I may not be at my best this week. I'm just letting you know every month I'm you know checking in with her and trying to just say to her like what's what's your big focus for this month? Like you know what's the big thing that you're working on? Then every year is easy. Like you know what's your goal this year? A resolution or whatever. And I find that those questions,

and sometimes every quarter I'll ask a question, which is the hardest one, but it's like, is this relationship going in the direction you want it to? And if it isn't, what are you willing to do, and what am I willing to do to get it back on track? Because I find so often, like if you just don't talk about that deep intimacy,

you're just going on different tracks. And that's why five years later, you're like, why don't you know you anymore? Yeah, yeah. And so I find that like staying in close contact, but one of the biggest things I read, which I wanted to try with you was the Gottman Institute talked about how

the number one skill or habit in relationships, and they looked at couples who'd stayed together the longest. And they found it wasn't date nights, it wasn't vacations, it wasn't any of this stuff, it was learning how to fight. It was knowing how to deal with conflict and most couples obviously we all go, well we never fight, we're never going to fight but it's inevitable. So I came up with these three fight styles and I wanted to know how you see yourself and how you see President Obama or how he would see himself.

And so here, the three fight styles are a Venter, which means I want to fix and solve it right now. You like a vent, you're really trying to fix and solve it. The second one is you're a hider. You need time and space to think about it. Just want to go spend time by yourself. And then the third one is the exploder where it's like, I want my emotions to be heard, felt, and seen before we take time about or before we try and solve it. Which one are you?

Okay, so I've changed over. I think early on in our relationships, I was more of an exploder. Wow. I think he has been always been a fixer, right? The venture, yeah, yeah. So then I would be explosive and then want to hide, right? It's like, I want to explode, let me have my emotions and then give me a moment. Yes. Right. And he's like, we've got to fix this. We've got to, you know, shut this down. We've got to, I will figure it out. Let's talk this through. Yes. And I love that about him, especially as a man. He is somebody that is not afraid to put his emotions out. He's smart. So he knows me.

So he's like, he won't let me pretend like there's nothing wrong because he knows I know there's something you're a little off. But I've had to learn that exploding on a fixer, it doesn't feel good to them. It just, it feels good for me, but it doesn't feel good for him, right? But he's learned that as a hider that I do need a little more time, right? If I'm exploding, I can't be rational enough

to talk through your fixing. And if you wanna fix it, then I've got to be an irrational place. So let me hide for a minute. So I can get myself down to a fixer place. Yes. I think that's been the trajectory of our sorting through, learning how to argue, but I like those. But he's been pretty consistent.

Yeah. He is consistently the fixer, you know, and he's also much more even keel, you know, than I am emotionally. We're just different people in that way. And he's learned not to be too afraid of the explosiveness. Yes. It's like, I don't mean it. I'm just saying it right now because I need to say it. I'm just saying it right now, because I need to say it.

Yes. And that awareness that you're just displaying there is so powerful to witness, because you realize, wow, it's not as serious as I'm making it out to be. That's right. That's right. It's important, and I need to take note of it, but I don't need to deal with it in this way.

Right, right. And it's maturing. We all say, well, say what's on your mind. It's mature. Yeah. And it's maturing. We all say, well, say what's on your mind, you know, tell it like it is. And it's like, yeah, I'm, that tends to be who I am. Yeah. But as you get older, you realize, yeah, that's your heart, but your head tells you, you want to be heard.

And you have to think about who you're talking to and what you're in gold is, because that will dictate how you have to communicate to them. So when you're young, you just want to be heard. As you get older, you have a goal. You want to achieve something. And being heard in the way you say it may not get you to your goal. I mean, that's at the crux for me of what going high is. Right?

I mean, going high is being strategic. If you're really trying to make change, you have to think about whether your approach will allow for change to happen. Going high means you're thinking about a broader point outside of your own anger or hurt or pain. You're thinking, where am I trying to get to and how do I do that with this group that I'm trying to move? That's passion matured into purpose. And young people often, they want to just act with passion. Yes.

But passion doesn't always solve a thing. And I've learned that in my relationship, my passion is meaningless if my husband can't hear it. If I've heard his feelings in the process, well, that's not the point. So I have to mature my passion. I have to mature it as a mother, right? I have to be very careful as a mother

with the words I say. I can't just say what's on my mind. I have to think about how I say it to which child. Because they're both different. And they both need to be parented different, right? So going high is like, to me, it's the mature way to live. It's the mature way to get the message across. It doesn't mean that how you feel isn't relevant, right? It's the mature way to get the message across. It doesn't mean that how you feel isn't relevant, right? It's true. It's real and true. But that's for you to deal with.

When you're dealing with external people, whether it's your husband or your kids or your friends, your passion has to take weight. Well,, what's gonna work with this person? What's gonna work with this group of people? To me, that's what going high is. Yeah, what a great definition. I think you're the best person to have this conversation with. I love how you explain the need for that. And actually, I don't think I've heard it

explaining that way before. I really appreciate it because I think currently we've confused being authentic and being strategic. What you were just saying is when you're sharing how you feel, you are being authentic, but maybe it won't be authentically received or heard or seen because it wasn't strategically perceived, but we sometimes today perceive strategy as manipulation or as a technique, as opposed to...

Or selling out. Or selling out. Right. Walk me through that, because I think how we perceive, we've put authenticity on a pedestal, which is not wrong, but we've put strategy as like the thing that you kind of shun.

Well, and maybe strategy is too strategic or hard of a word, but you could replace that with empathy. You know, if you were connectivity, it's sort of like, who am I trying to move? And where are they in this? And when you're the president of the United States or the first lady, you have a big platform, I've always felt like I have a responsibility to set my feelings aside and think about, where are you? Why are you so angry? Where is your hate

coming from? Because yeah, I can be mad at your hate. I can be mad that you're, you know, you just said something racist or you knocked me down a peg or you misjudged me. But if I'm trying to fix the relationship, I've got to understand, what are you going through? Where did that perception come from? What's your history? What puts you in this spirit of hate?

Because that's going to dictate how we can even begin to have the conversation. I don't lose my authenticity in that, because I know who I am, right? But I have to make room to understand who you are. That's either strategy or empathy, but to me, effective communication, especially if you're a leader, if you have the power, it requires a step back. Right. And I think that's what going high is.

And I do. You're right. I think in this day and age, we've kind of supplanted that consideration because my feelings count. My voice has to be heard, which is also why I think we have to learn how to hear people throughout. Right. We have to give people a space to be heard outside of the anger, right? Because that's where all that's coming from, right?

When people can't mature their response, it's because they don't have a voice. It's like, and I don't have a voice and regular conversation, and I will make you hear me. Yes. All right. Young people feel that way. Absolutely. All right. A press people feel that way.

People who don't have a stake in it feel that way, which is why I think it's strategic to give everybody a piece of something so that they feel seen and heard. I think that brings that ratchets down the anger, the explosiveness because people can guarantee that they are being seen, they'll be heard. They don't have to yell, they don't have to tear something apart, they don't have to break it because they own it. And we just lose sight of that. These days in our policies and our perspectives, you can't shut people out.

You know, I talk about in the light when I think about kids from communities that are under invested in, their anger, their lack of, like, I don't, none of this belongs to me, so why would I protect it? Why wouldn't I break down your house or rob you or try to take your car? Because I don't own any of this.

This country is not mine, they don't see me, right? I think we do better with kids that they feel like I've got a chance here. This place is investing in me, so I'm invested in it. We do that with kids in the inner city, but we don't talk about education. We don't talk about what we're giving them or whether they have music or joy or sports

or activities. We just want them to have nothing and then be okay with it. But they're gonna fight to be heard. Yes. They're gonna fight to be seen, but they're not gonna do it in a rational way because they don't have a strategic place and they don't feel like they're a part of it. So true. So true. When you're trying to go high, when you're trying to have this view of, I want to understand

your story, I want to get inside your mindset and recognize why you have evolved in this direction, or this particular path. If anything, what does still offend you? Like, injustice, ego, greed, it's offensive racism, ignorance, it's offensive. And I've always been that kid. I don't like unfairness. I don't like bullies. But I have to think about how I deliver messages. That's beautiful. Still, even in my pain and my anger and my disappointment. So those emotions are there, but I have to think about where do I let that out?

Yes. In a safe space. And that's what my kitchen table is. I still have those emotions, but in my public facing voice, I have to be responsible, right? And strategic and thoughtful about what's going to move the needle, what's going to add value.

My emotional well-being gets taken care of at the kitchen table. I can't suffocate those feelings, but I can't act them out in the town square. Because I'm just going to add fuel to the fire. And that doesn't help if we're trying to move the needle. That's how it. I don't believe because those feelings are still mine. And if you ask me, I'll tell you what I'm angry about, but I'm not gonna lead with that. And in the midst of the message, I'll make it clear what I stand for

and what I don't stand for. But the tone and tenor of the message matters. We can't just say, well, what the first thing that comes to our minds, we cannot. That is not authenticity to me. That's childish. And we see childish leadership right before us, what that looks like and how that feels.

Where somebody is just base and vulgar and cynical in a leadership position. It doesn't trickle down well. That just gets more of that. I think we are obligated to model for those of us that have a platform because it resonates and I wanna resonate good. I wanna resonate reason and compassion and empathy. And that's more important than

my feelings. Because my feelings, I can take care of those. That is, that's a masterclass in communication right there. Genuinely, that is to hear that from you with so much empathy, but energy is so empowering for everyone who's listening and watching because I think we've approached it from the other way around today. I think my personal feelings, not mine, but in general how we feel, my personal feelings have become more important than moving and supporting and serving and caring and getting to where we need to get to. And that's because we've suppressed those feelings.

That's why that has happened. It hasn't happened because people are mean or insensitive. It's happened because people feel they've been so unheard going back to your point. And that's why we need to give space. We need to let this rise. How early did you start recognizing this for you in your own life? Like, where do you remember the earliest before the White House?

Were you actually like this worked? Like this made sense. I still felt good because I had my kitchen table. Is there anything that comes to mind? Do I go to childhood? I don't think I knew anything. Where is it? I was little.

But I learned it on the campaign trail. It was a product of one of the hardest moments that I had on the campaign trail. It was a product of one of the hardest moments that I had on the campaign trail, but one of the best growth moments, and I write about this in the light when I was accused of not loving my country, because of some phrasing I said, I learned first of all that when you have a public forum, especially

in this day and age, that in your like competing, people will distort you whenever they can. And if they distort your words, your truth, even your personhood, which I felt like people attempted to do with me, with us, they tried to otherwise us as the first black people, accusing my husband of being a terrorist and not being born in this country, accusing me of being an angry black woman and the labels that can easily get put on others, that people that are other, right?

To make people afraid of us, that that is a strategy that gets played again and again and again, it was being played on me and it got me to the point where I was almost ready to quit campaigning, right? But then I thought I have to be more strategic than they are about how I deliver my message. I have to be authentic, but I also have to be careful

so that I don't get mischaracterized. I have to be smarter than them. That isn't me, I stop. But I had to regroup for a minute there and really evaluate, how am I going to regain control over my narrative and communicate in a broad way, right? That allows me to be heard, especially as a black woman. Yes.

Here, be critical or being authentic or passionate, right? Mm-hmm. That was a learning curve to me. I mean, I think my sentiments about the importance of communication are always there. Yes. I think my sentiments about the importance of communication were always there. My belief in how important it is that stories connect us. That was there. I learned that in life.

But learning how to do that on the public stage, I learned the tricks and pitfalls of it in my first campaign. And those lessons stayed with me. Yeah, that's, thank you for that example. That example definitely connects. You reminded me of probably one of my favorite set of words from Martin Luther King where he said that people who love peace need to learn to organize themselves

as well as those who love war. For those who love us who love love and love peace and love compassion and empathy. If we're not organized about it, if we're not strategic about it, if we're not thoughtful about it, it won't have the impact that we all crave for it to have. Michelle, we, you've been so kind and generous with your time, we end every episode with a final five. These are the fast five which I always ruin because I'm too interested in curious They're usually answered in one word to one sentence. Oh my god. But I know I'm gonna. I'm gonna ruin it. So it's fun So the first question I have to ask you Michelle is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? I heard a lot of it from my wise

Mom come home. we like you here. To explain that it was like my parents always taught me that the world won't always like you but you can't count on the world to like you. You come home to be liked. You go out there to get your education to earn a living. You won't necessarily find people who will see you or love you or like you, you get that here, right? That's been a piece of advice that's. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. That's that's so powerful. Now a lot of people who need to hear that right now. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received? I don't know. I don't know that the worst advice stays with me.

You let it go. My brother, this isn't the worst, right? But it goes back to what we were saying earlier. You know, he is like, when you get into the White House, you've got to be careful. No new friends, right? That's not who he is, but, you know, it was a short way of saying, be careful. I think staying open was more important in this phase in our lives than being closed off. I'm glad we stayed open.

I'm glad too. Question number three, you said that the White House doesn't change you. It reveals more of who you are. What did it reveal to you about yourself? That I'm pretty strategic and smart and resilient. The White House tests you in ways that you never anticipated. And the fact that we came out as a family, as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters,

that was us. That was our values, our compassion, our smarts, our strategy that got us through. I'm so proud of my husband. In the way he led the way his administration worked, the team that we built so proud of everyone. I may have diverted from the question, but I think that's because of who we are. I know that now.

I can see it in your eyes and feel it from your words. It must be hard, knowing knowing that, you know, it can't always be that way in one sense. It's almost like great that you've been able to leave, but there's that feeling also of like, oh, but that was great. I mean, the bars are different for people in life. That I've learned, this is the thing about being another.

You learn how to be excellent all the time because you can't be less than. Other people can. Other people can be indicted a bunch of times and still run for office. Black man can't. You just learn to be good. And in the end, you benefit from that extra resilience, you know, you could be mad about it But it also makes you more equipped, right? But it's still not fair

Yeah, definitely Question number four got two more left question number four You've obviously already you've obviously already began living and will leave an incredible legacy for the work that you've done. If you could describe what that you'd want that legacy to read, if someone was reading it or hearing it, what would it say? That she helped more young people feel seen, Because I start with young people, because with one word, we can change a kid's life, we can lift them up,

but that same wrong one word can crush them forever. And those are the building blocks of our humanity, how we treat our kids, all of them, right? And so I hope that my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for young people. A fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show, more appropriate with guests like yourselves, but if you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?

Everybody should have a home to live in, food to eat, a job to go to, an education, period. There would be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world. Now, there could be levels of that. You know, we would not live in a world where so few have so much and so many have nothing. And that law would create some kind of equity. We have this trickle down approach, right? That's the basis of a capitalistic economy, right? But that's not happening. Yes. It's not trickling.

The law would require in whatever way, if we're not trickling voluntarily, then we need to be forced to trickle. How do we create that law? It really. How do we get that? Mendedory trickling that. Amen. How do we get that? Mendedory trickling that. Now we so need that.

We so need that. What's blocking that? What's, what's top in that? Oh, I think fear. Yeah. I mean, I, I write about fear because I think fear is at the source of so much because I think the people who have a lot are afraid of not having enough. And it's not rational, right? But we fear the other too. And so

it's hard to give to people that you think you should be afraid of because you can't connect with them. We're all human. We're so alike. I don't care about skin color or how we pray or who how we love we're all the same What keeps us from seeing that is fear right? I don't know you you're different So I got to be afraid of you and I can't I have to make sure you don't come into my space and then we live in a culture where People with power pray on fear to get more power, I'm going to make you all afraid of each other. And then I can come in and rule it all, right? I think fear is at the root of that. I shall I deeply appreciate your time, your energy, your presence, the eloquence, but also

the deep energy you bring to conversations like these. And I'm definitely grateful for the light you carry. And I'm very deeply appreciative for you sharing it on on purpose. And I hope this will be the first of many conversations together. So thank you. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll talk again. Absolutely. Thank you. If you love this episode, you will enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Aiman on how to change your life by changing your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain.

I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murders, and their brains will are very damaged. Does your brain keep you up at bedtime? I'm Catherine Nicolai and my podcast Nothing Much Happens, Bedtime Stories to Help You Sleep has helped millions of people to get consistent deep sleep. My stories are family-friendly, they celebrate everyday pleasures and train you over time to fall asleep faster with less waking in the night.

Start sleeping better tonight. Listen to nothing much happens bedtime stories to help you sleep with Catherine Nicolai on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Dressing, Bollassing, French dressing. Exactly. Yeah, that's good. I'm AJ Jacobs, and my current obsession is Puzzles. And that has given birth to my new podcast, The Puzzler. Something about Mary Poppins?

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