On Purpose with Jay Shetty - Mike Posner: ON How Fame Ruined His Life

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

Mike Posner is the musician behind the hit songs I Took A Pill In Ibiza and Cooler Than Me. But behind the flashing lights and sold-out shows lies a very unique mind, one that has learned to deal with fame and fortune and most recently—the loss of his father. On today’s episode, Mike shares his insights on how to deal with loss, why moments of epiphany must be processed, and what the difference between the mind and intelligence is. Mike even turns the table on Jay—and asks him many profound questions about his own experience unpacking mindfulness.  Tune in to this episode to catch a glimpse of the mechanics behind this singer-songwriter’s brain.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Eva Longoria. And I'm Maite Gomes-Rajon. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry For History! On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two

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on handling common problems, making life seem more manageable, now more than ever. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of the One-E-Feed Podcast, where I interview thought-provoking guests who offer practical wisdom that you can use to create the life you want. 25 years ago, I was homeless and addicted to heroin. I've made my way through addiction recovery, learned to navigate my clinical depression, and figured out how to build a fulfilling life. The one you feed has over 30 million downloads

and was named one of the best podcasts by Apple Podcast. Oprah Magazine named this is one of 22 podcasts to help you live your best life. You always have the chance to begin again and feed the best of yourself. The trap is the person often thinks they'll act once they feel better. It's actually the other way around.

I have had over 500 conversations with world-renowned experts and yet I'm still striving to be better, joining me on this journey. Listen to the one you feed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts My hair is a kind of changed as I've gotten older growing up like the Kurt Cobain two-packs of core These kind of guys as I've gotten older after I'm I idolizing them I should probably idolize even if it's not real. It's like try it's probably better to analyze like Jesus or like the Buddha.

Right, even if their like stories are fake, there's no like flaws there. Like that's a better North Star. So it's not every day that you receive a text message from a multi-platinum-selling artist. Someone who's written songs for everyone from Justin Bieber to Farrell Williams to Big Sean, Two Chains, Wiz Khalifa, Nelly, Snoop Dogg and many many more.

Now, when you hear his name, you'd think of music, you would think of talent, you would think of songwriting. But when I met this individual, we went so deep, so spiritual, so internal, so quickly. Today's guest is Mike Posner. I love the fact that we got into such a meaningful conversation beyond music, beyond money and beyond fame. And his new album is out right now. It's called A Real Good Kid. And he even performs two songs from the album on the podcast. I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

Welcome, Mike Posner. Mike, it's great to have you here. Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for being here, man. I'm really grateful. I want you to know that I'm really grateful that we connected recently, and I really appreciate you being here, man. Thanks for being him and I'm really grateful. I want you to know that I've really I'm grateful that we connected recently and I really appreciate you being here man. You got it. I'm grateful we connected also. Yeah, yeah, it seems your video's before someone. There's the guy, man.

I was listening to your music for a long time before too, so I'm gonna be connected. Yeah, that's cool man. That's cool. And it was nice because I remember Tom who connected us. He was like, you guys are both, you both have three billion views, you should connect. And I was just like, I think there's a lot of other reasons we should connect to. But yeah, man, I wanted to start off by just saying, yeah, been a long time fan of your work and your music. So the fact that you let me listen to your album before this, I really appreciate it. And so thank you so much for doing that. But I want to start off by, we were on a call, I think about two, three weeks ago,

and you were in a bookstore, which books did you end up buying or any of them any good? I ended up buying a gentleman in Moscow. Okay. I just finished that. Yeah. It was really good.

Okay, what was that about? It's a novel about, it's a fiction about a guy, the USSR and like the 20s and 30s and he basically is sentenced to live the rest of his life in this one hotel. And it's a nice hotel but he's not allowed to leave it ever again. And he gets in tallies different things and nooks and you know, story takes turns and people come and leave and it was really fun. It was really really good. And then I bought the stranger by Camu that I started yesterday because I just finished the gentleman in Moscow and I haven't been like, I'm not all the way in yet, but we'll see. Yeah, okay.

And so I just started that and then I bought Brian Wilson from Beach Boys. He was an autobiography. I bought that and then I got bought something. That's all I bought, bought three. You read it long? Yeah, I have been this year. This year, this is probably the most of every, maybe like 20 books this year. Wow, it's like the most for me. But yeah, very in the lot.

That's a lot. And yeah, yeah. What's been the best one? What's been the highlights? Stand out one. Honestly, I read the power now by Eckhart Tolley, which was a book I avoided for a long time because it's popular, you know? It's everyone's own. Overton, it's everyone's over time.

I've got the power of now. And I thought if it's popular, it's not cool. That's why, you know, foolishly, I always wanted to be like, find some like secret. Exactly. So I never read it for the years and years and years. And I finally read it. I was like, oh, it's popular for a reason.

It's good. I read that book like four or five times this year. Yeah. And we were just looking through my shelf and you said you'd read the buggered Gita. Yes. Yes. Why did you read that? What do you think of it? I read that actually when I was visiting India for the first time, the only time so far. That was a year and a half ago. I remember just getting like, hi, reading that book, you know, was like a physical experience.

It was really something else. You know? Was the first time you read it? The first time I read it, I was 16 years old. So I read it that time, and at that time it was very philosophical for me. Really powerful for getting through some things I got through at 16. Then I read it again at 18, then I read it again at 21,

and then when I became a monk, I studied and taught that book for three years full time. So it became a huge part of my life. And even now when I'm working on writing my own book, I'm taking a lot of principles from the Bhagavad Gita and making them relevant and accessible. Actually, the power of now has so many roots in chapter 14 of the Bhagavad Gita. What's time to 14? Chapter 14 is all about the modes of material nature, a mode that makes you focus on the past, a mode that makes you focus on the future and a mode that brings you in the present.

And so chapter 14 of the Bhagavad-i-Tah really goes deeply into the different modes that we operate in. I mean, we do two hours just on the Gita, man. Tell me stuff like that. We could, but that's what we're going to say for our time. Did you ever have this experience like, I remember being, I don't, what city I was going to, I was in India on a plane, I was reading, I remember just feeling like the veil has been lifted

like us weight came off and I was like goofy smile. I'm like, I felt like I took drugs just from this book. Did you ever have something like that, really? Yeah, for sure, for sure that spiritual knowledge can be intoxicating in a good way, in a good way. It's almost like detoxifying, but in the process of that, it feels like you get intoxicated first and then it's stripped away. Right. Yeah, spiritual knowledge does. Spiritual knowledge is described to feeling like a consciousness shower, like bathing the consciousness, cleansing and healing and letting go of all of the other things, all the toxins, all the negative beliefs, all of the things that we've been holding on to for so long. All the false identities are stripped away. We almost get to see ourselves face to face after such a long time when we strip away and let go of all our false designations and Rolls that we've been playing

And what do you do like wait? He's focused. I know I know I've got a question for you, Doc a question for you I was like, I don't know if it's like this for you but for me I will have the like that was one of them on the plane. I'll have these like flashes of Very high moments High is like the best way I can explain where it feels like I'll have these like flashes of very high moments. High is like the best way I can explain. Where it feels like, I've heard the word satory. Is this, you know, this word is like a flash of enlightenment.

And what do you do with that after is like, is that am I supposed to always feel like that? Cause it's almost like, it ends, right? Is it go high that moment on the plane, but at some point that moment ended. to always feel like that, because it's almost like, it ends. Right? I had that moment on the plane, but at some point that moment ended. And I went back to a more normal default state. And then you kinda like the default state less

because you experience this other thing. That's beautifully explained, man. Yeah, it's true. It's true. So what it's explained as in the Vedic literature, is shadow Experiences so a good example is when you're touring. Let's say I came with you I would get to experience everything like I was Mike

I get to be in your VIP space if you took me as a friend I'd get to be in your zone. I get to see things from your perspective But I'm not Mike. I'm just experiencing the shadow of experiencing it through you. And in spiritual traditions, whether we're with an incredible teacher or a guru or we're with a book, that energy kind of is infectious and spills over onto us and we get that high.

And then what we need to do is unpack it so that we can live that high continuously every single day. And what often happens with ep pithenies or these moments is that we don't unpack them. We just let them be one-off experiences. But you can feel like that every single day if we choose to unpack and learn through that process of almost reverse engineering, like, what was that moment trying to teach me? What did I really gain from it? Like, why did that happen at that state?

What was I doing? Right. And then you can feel that way again. But it's also very scary though. This is the reason it's scary is because if you're right, this is what you should spend your life doing. But if you're wrong, if you can't't feel that every day if that's not possible This is a good way to waste your life and not only that you'd like could very easily slip into

hating Normalcy because you've experienced this flash and you think something's wrong with not being there all the time. And this is, I struggle with this because I go, oh yeah, let me unpack it, I'm going to do this work to get there and I can feel like that every day. But then Parmi's like, what if there, what if you can't really feel like that? What if this is what it's supposed to be like now, you know, or just make peace with this? Yeah. Well, what? Yeah. And I think it's both. I think it is both. I think having that flash, the fact that you've had that experience is proof to you that there is more. Yes. It's proof to you that there is a greater purpose beyond our existence. There is greater meaning. There is greater fulfillment.

And right now, you're totally right. Our current state is this. So if we don't make peace with this, if we don't accept this, if we don't learn to navigate this and constantly live in the chasing mindset, then yeah, we're gonna feel depressed every single day. So that's what I was just saying earlier

that the process and the destination are the same. It shouldn't be seen as separate. We see the epiphany as the destination or a milestone when actually the process on a daily basis itself can be rewarding. It's like the creation of the song and the song. You can't really strip them away from each other, right? Correct. the song, you can't really strip them away from each other right? Correct. Correct. We went right for it. Huh?

Yeah. We're like five minutes in. I know. I love it. It's great. It's great. This is what makes this hit the ground on my toe beautiful. Yeah.

I love it. You start interviewing me though. You're the other one with all the insights. We this is a, yeah. This is a, because I struggle with this. Yeah, this up and down, you know, and you know, I'll go on retreat or something or spend some, like, less, this summer, I spent some time in solitude at the monastery for like 12 days and it got really high. And you come back in life and I get tripped up,

you know, fight with my sister or something, you know, and then like, the party wants to go back to the monastery where you can like control everything, but this is in life, you know, always. And that's the beauty of it. Yeah, dealing with the and that's the beauty of it that when you come back into reality, you get an opportunity to learn how to navigate it, taking that information, taking that insight, taking those experiences from the monastery, wherever you're taking them from, and then getting them to play out in life, that's part of the experience. I know that when I left being a monk, I actually

feel I've had more reflections and realisation since leaving because I've had to put into practice everything I learned than when I was a monk. Because when I was a monk, it was protected. It was harder after I presumed, right? It was harder initially. It was harder initially, it was harder initially, yes, it was harder, but then it became more fulfilling because I really had to dig deep, I really had to rethink and I had to approach everything with the new fresh set of eyes and experiences. So it's actually become more meaningful. Yeah, I can. I'm not there.

No, it's a daily process. Yeah, I'm not there. No, it's a daily process. I'm not there either, man. This is like, so I was on the right, I told you I was on this retreat, it's been like 12 days alone. I was like all the way alone I was in this little cabin on this monastery. They dropped the food off once a week and like a box, you know, and you pick,

so you don't see anyone for a whole week. You know, I'm like meditating five to seven hours a day and after like a week or so, I'll get to this point where my mind got quiet, quiet her, you know, where usually I look at a flower and my brain goes, so this is a rose, this is the last time I saw a rose, ta-da-da-da-da, this one isn't quite as pretty talking, talking, talking. And a few times on this retreat, I got to a point where I would hear a bird song,

like quiet mind. And it's just like cripplingly beautiful. I would start crying, you know, or see the moon without my mind saying anything. Like, it just came, explain how beautiful it is. So then it's like, okay, I want to go home and like, do that with people too. It's like, listen, but I can't do it.

And like, when I talk with some of my brain is going all the time, time, time, time. So it's like, yes, this integration, you know. And it's natural because that space is carrying that energy because people for decades. I don't know about the particular monastery you went to, but people for decades have been practicing higher levels of consciousness, alternate levels of consciousness in that space. So that's I read. I always say that location has energy and time has memory. So that location has energy and time has memory. So that location is carrying that energy.

And the time that you spend there is carrying that memory with you. So now what it's about is being able to recreate that outside of that physical space. Because if it is an altered state of consciousness, you can carry it with you and create that state in a new space Because it's not bound by physical boundaries. Correct. So correct So it takes time and I'm practicing a daily two like don't don't get me wrong

I'm not coming it as a as a point of being an expert at all I'm coming from a always trying to create the state I want to be in, not accepting the state that is given to me. Yeah, yeah. It's a real gift if you can listen to someone that way with a quiet mind. Because yeah, usually when we're listening, we're actually talking in our head about what the other person is saying.

And we're listening to our voice that commentary is supposed to their voice. So when you can really listen in that deep way, it's a real gift to give to someone else. It's difficult to do. That's why it's such a gift because it's rare, you know. I did it once with my mom. I was like meditating and she walked in and I was like, mom, I was like meditating and she walked in and I was like, and it felt so good. Because I could recognize the things that like usually would trip me up and I would get upset or judge her about. And it was just really listening to what she was trying to say behind the words even,

you know. It was like this beautiful moment, you know. Did she feel different as well? I don't know. Okay. It's so hard to tell. I've had both these experiences where I've like been in one of these like flashes. There was one thing Hawaii. I was with a friend of mine and it was like it was one of those moments. You know, we weren't even talking or just looking out over like this cliff is beautiful. And I

remember I was like this and we get each other hug hug and then later the day he was like man some crazy Happen when we we hugged right there. I like I felt this he felt something and I thought oh when I feel something Maybe other people are to it another time My girlfriend at the time and I Just meditated one day. I'm like feeling like high. I'm like loopy, you know, riding the car and I was very quiet because I was like having this experience internally. And then later I talked to her about like two days later. She was like, yeah, I thought you were really mad at me. And I was like, she was in a different place.

She wasn't high with me. So I never know exactly what other people are feeling. I used to think I could. I used to think, oh, they're feeling what I'm feeling always, but I don't think so. Not all the time. It's harder, yeah. It is hard.

It is hard. And I think that's the challenge that we have. When we've had a moment and experience, our mind forces us to want to relive that experience rather than have a powerful new one. And the pain actually comes from always going to go back to where we were. This is a tad too forward to where we can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's that's actually where the pain comes on. The pain comes from wanting to have the same experience, not believing that there is one that can supersede that again in the future. And also it's impossible to have an experience twice. Totally. 100%. Just you can't even do it. Yeah. And it's just the trick of the mind. Yeah,

my mind's always doing that. Yeah, just the trick of the mind. Yeah, my mind's always doing that. Yeah, it's just the trick of the mind. That's constantly trying to, whatever it is, not just spiritual experiences, any experience. Even if it's a material experience, your mind's tricking you to want to recreate it again and again and again. So we keep coming up with new ways of having the same experience. So here's a good question for you.

I'm sorry, just curious. I know you're supposed to ask me questions. I bet so many good guys. Anyway, go ahead. This is fun. This seems to me to be like two kinds of teachers nowadays. When I think of like contemporary spiritual teachers, there's one school that says, you can train your mind to think better thoughts, think more positively, get rid of like negative stories or limiting beliefs etc

Conjurnal and meditator these things and cleanse the mind make the mind more healthy That's for school one and then there's another school. I feel like That says nope the mind is inherently dirty. And what you need to do is recognize that you're not your mind. And maybe it's both of those things. I don't know it together, but I have trouble because I feel like I have a toe here and a toe there.

You know what I mean? It's tough because one day I'll be like, I'll notice myself thinking negative thoughts. I think, oh, I need to stop doing that. Or do I just need to recognize? That's what minds do. Yeah. I don't know. That's great. How do you think about that? I'm so glad. This is a brilliant question. So I look at it from the point of the Vedas or the Bhagavad Gita and that tradition, that school of thought, because that school of thought has given me in my research of stoicism and my research of alternative ways of thinking. I've found a lot of good answers there. So the principle is suggested as this,

that the mind, its function is to desire and want and will, right? That's the function of the mind. What's often missed out in any of these schools of thought is the position of the intelligence. So the mind is compared to a child and the intelligence is compared to an adult. And so we are not the mind. Definitely. That's for sure. We are not the mind. We are consciousness beyond the mind. But there is an interaction with every thought between the mind and the intelligence. So for example, I'll paint a picture because it's easier. Let's say you've decided that you want to go on a diet, right? Let's say you've decided you want to go on a diet, you want to eat healthy stuff. The mind sees a chocolate fight cake. I'm picking that because I love chocolate fights cakes.

So the mind sees a chocolate fight cake and the mind goes, I want that right now. I need to have that. Like, I need that chocolate fight cake. And you think the chocolate fight cake is looking at you saying, eat me, right? Like, you think that. And so the mind's having this whole conversation. The mind thinks back to every time

it's had chocolate fight cake, and how happy it feels when it has that. And you think, yeah, I need to have this fight cake. I need it. Then it's the role of the intelligence. Based on how much you've strengthened your intelligence, your intelligence will say to the mind, no, we want to eat healthy, we want to be healthy. We're going to save that for cheat day.

But if your intelligence is weak, your intelligence has falls over and goes, okay, let's just have the, you know, and so that's actually the interaction that's happening daily in our minds. When we wake up in the morning, your mind says, I want to go to sleep. Your intelligence says, I want to wake up. Depending on how much whichever one you've been feeding, whichever one you've been strengthening, that's the one that wins inside of you every single day. So that's one other school of thought to add to it. And how would you, how would you, one part of me goes, well, is intelligence just another part of the mind? Yeah, it's the more mature adult functioning part, but even that is not really us.

It's our ability to be able to use it to steer our life in a certain way. So the analogy that's given is a driver in a car. Like when you have a car accident, sometimes we're like, oh, that car hit me. The car didn't hit you, it hit the car. Like when you have a car accident, sometimes we're like, Oh, that car hit me. The car didn't hit you, it hit the car. So the car's like the body. The intelligence is like the engine and the system that you're using. The steering wheel is like the intelligence. And then you, the driver of the consciousness. So each part of it is separate, but you're using a different element of it to control the other part. And how do you think of personality in this?

Yeah, personality is a mix of the mind and intelligence. But do you think in, I don't know, like who we are, our deepest level is our personality part of that? Is like the personality part of the car is a little mask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think so too. Yeah, I think so too.

I think that, and I don't know, but I think that too. Yeah, I think so too. I think that, and I don't know, but I think that when I die, obviously my body will expire, but I think my personality will expire. Correct. But I will, some essence of me will keep going. I'm with you. But I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was like, man, I, I feel pretty bummed like if, when I die, I'm still my personality.

Like, I don't want to be Mike Posner anymore. Like, with the same, the Roses and the, like my person out. Like I don't want to be my post-ner anymore. Like with the saying the roasties and the say like I want to leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no for sure man, I get you. We went straight in all the way. We went all the way. I love it. I'll let you ask a question. No, if you're still listening, I hope you're not scared. No, no. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I in, which I love. That's my fascination and fixation too, is figuring out our existence. And I feel like so many of your lyrics that I picked out that I want to share with the audience, listening and watching today, I want to share. So I'm going to pick out a few things here. So here, I want to dive straight in. I picked out a few lyrics and I want to dissect them with you. So one of your lyrics says, my heroes all die young, they hung themselves with fame. Right? I want to know who are some of your heroes

and how did they hang themselves with fame? What does that mean? This is like, my heroes have kind of changed, you know, as I've gotten older. But the heroes I'm talking about, then, you know, it's like growing up like the Kurt Cobain, two poxie core, you know, not really Jay did up and he died young as well, not necessarily from being famous, but you know, these kind of guys, you know, that they just incredible, they seem to burn really brightly for a short period of time. They don't fade out. They explode.

Those are the kind of guys I was referring to. But as I've gotten older, I've thought, why am I idolizing them? I should probably idolize even if they're like myths, or it's not real. It's like, I thought it'd probably be better to analyze like Jesus or like the Buddha, right? Even if they're like stories are fake or myths or not entirely factual. Like, there's no like flaws there. Like that's a good nor better north star. You know what I mean? And like, but there is something just really intriguing about this kind of like genius

talent that self-destructs at times. When did you first start learning about like Jesus and Buddha and when did they start becoming a role model and why? Well, you're heroes. Later. And while I mean the last like four, three, four or five years. Yeah.

Why was that? Why did that shift happen? Actually was I met this teacher named Ramdas. You know, Ramdas. I had a friend whose mom was sick. And she was friends with Ramdas and They were gonna go Visit him in Hawaii, but she died and he called me say hey look. I still want to go on this trip. I want you to come with me though So I said okay, I'm gonna come and I went and

We went to Ramdas's house and and we went to Romdos' house. And, you know, he said like a stroke, so he had like a motorized cherry came in the room. And I had read some of his stuff and listened to some of his lectures. And he said a bunch of words I'd heard him say already, you know, like, because I knew his stuff. And we said one thing that stuck out, he said, you know, he could say all day long, you're

categorizing. You say, I love this and I hate this. You're doing that all day. He goes, it's much easier if you just love everything. You don't have to, then you don't have to categorize anymore. It's just easier. Takes less energy. And he sort of just like, he held this space.

It was less about what he was saying and more about like, he would look at us, these big eyes. And it felt like we could have been serial colors, whatever. He just would have loved us this way. And I remember we walked out of his house. And this was one of those high moments. Maybe one of the first ones I had where I was almost like keeled over and start crying. I was like looking around.

I felt like I was in a new world. And I felt like I was in love with all the stuff like like the rusty gate and the dirt on the ground. I just loved it all. And it ended, you know, I felt like that the rest of the night and it ended. And I didn't feel like, you know, I didn't feel like, oh, I'm should pray to Ramdas now. No, I felt like, oh, this is a guy who's been doing the work for the however many years you've been doing the work in. I thought, I wanna be that for other people. This would be a good way to spend my life

as if I could hold that kind of space. I am Yamla and on my podcast, the R-Spot, we're having inspirational, educational, and sometimes difficult and challenging conversations about relationships. They may not have the capacity to give you what you need. And insisting means that you are abusing yourself now. You human! That means that you're crazy as hell, just like the rest of us. When a relationship breaks down, I take copious notes and I want to share them with you. Anybody with two eyes and a brain knows that too much Alfredo sauce is just no good for

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The worst part is that he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did. And that's even way worse than the money he took. But I am here to help. As a licensed psychologist and survivor of narcissistic abuse myself, I know how to identify the narcissists in your life. Each week, you will hear stories from survivors

who have navigated through toxic relationships, gaslighting, love bombing, and the process of their healing from these relationships. Listen to navigating narcissism on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1680s, a feisty, opera singer burned down a nunnery and stole away with her secret lover. the opera singer burned down a nunnery and stole away with her secret lover. In 1810, a pirate queen negotiated her cruise way to total freedom, with all their loot. During World War II, a flirtatious gambling double agent helped keep D-Day a secret from the Germans.

What do these stories have in common? They're all about real women who were left out of your history books. If you're tired of missing out, check out the Womanica podcast, a daily women's history podcast highlighting women you may not have heard of, but definitely should know about. I'm your host Jenny Kaplan, and for me, diving into these stories is the best part of my day. I learned something new about women from around the world and leafyling amazed, inspired, and sometimes shocked. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So it was one of these moments where I thought, oh, that is possible, you know, to be in

a space like that, a mind select that that people can feel, like you could feel it, you know. So after that, I started listening more to his lectures and I think he made a point like this in one of his lectures, which was, you know, if you read someone else's, like if you read my book on spirituality, you're going to get all of the reasons that I am not enlightened. Does that make sense? What have you read with something from an enlightened being like the Eterus and like this?

You just get that. Switcher, I read everything, but this is what he said. It kind of makes sense to me, you know. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I remember that moment when I was 18 and I met the first monk I ever met, I had a very similar experience where my role model switched is the first time where I'd always looked up to celebrities and entrepreneurs and CEOs and influencers of any kind at that time when I was 18 years old, when I met a monk, that really shifted my journey and shifted how I was aspiring to be and to do, because

similarly to what you said, it kind of opened me up to a whole alternative path that I didn't know existed. So I can identify with that. And then the end of that lyric, you say they hung themselves with fame. Tell me how you came to write that. This fame thing is funny. I'm sure you deal with it too. Maybe better than me, but it's just so easy to get addicted to it.

You know, I mean, still like to this day, you know, I mean, still, like, to this day, you know, I went to the monastery, I grew my beer, whatever, but I like when people like me, you know, and you can just totally self-destruct. It's like a real addiction, you know? It's like you people would do anything, especially when you get a taste of it. You do anything to get more of it, you know, it's like you people would do anything. Especially when you get taste of it,

you do anything to get more of it, you know, and can kill yourself this way. People do, you know? Yeah. You know, the cause might be a overdose, something like this, but it's that, you know? It's, you know, like my friend Vichy died this year. It's a weird vortex, fame thing to be in.

You know, and I'm not like really famous. I have like some friends that are like super, like I can like, I walked in here, you know, like no, if someone recognized me, it's like one person, I can like, talk to him for a second, and I can go on with my day, you know. I have friends, you know, they can't go in public. They get like mad. It's not like that for me, which I like.

It's just a weird, you get into a weird, I feel it on tour. On tour, because each night, I'm playing the show, people are there just for you. Just for you. For me, you know, so in that building, I'm like super famous, you know. And, and then when I go on back on the tour bus, everyone that I'm living with works for me, which is a weird, it's just weird.

It's not real life. And then I get used to it, and I'll go out of that vortex and Expect everyone to like be waiting on me and this kind of thing and it's like well, no, no, that's not reality, you know Yeah, I want to dive into that thought that you were saying about liking being liked like we all like being liked Is that a bad thing is a good thing? How do you and this whole process you're talking about of fame, how have you worked through it? How have you seen your friends work through it successfully?

Like what have you found? What have you learned? I know there's no perfect answer to that. Sure. The first thing that pops up is I think is probably a survival thing, right? You know, if you're liked by the people around you, it's less likely to be killed by them, you know?

Like, it makes sense that we like being liked. If it indeed is a universal thing, which I think it pretty much is, and I'll tell you the wrong way that I've tried dealing with it, and I see other people doing this all the time, from afar and from close, which is, I will try to prove my autonomy

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I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. So there was a point in my career like two, three years ago where I thought everyone knows me this one way, I'm gonna do the opposite. So I feel like I can still, my own guy, I make my own decisions, I'm not pandering to other people. So I remember I stopped.

I like, I was eating every other day and I lost 30 pounds. And I was already a healthy weight when I started. So I was really skinny and I dyed my hair green. I had a green mullet. And I was doing photo shoots where I was wearing like makeup and women's clothes. And I was doing photo shoots where I was wearing like makeup and women's clothes. And there's nothing wrong with that. They actually look pretty cool, but the reason was messed up that I was doing. Not the actual thing. Some of the photos are very beautiful in this kind of thing. And the reason was I was doing the opposite to prove to myself, hey, I'm not attached to your opinion. But if you really think about it, I'm still very much attached to your opinion.

Your opinion is still dictating what I'm doing doing even though it's the opposite of it. Instead of just me just being me. So I don't know if I explained that very well, but I see that all the time with musicians, artists, and you know, just people in general where they'll be going one way and they feel themselves becoming attached to other people's approval. And so they flip 180 to prove themselves that they're unattached. But this is actually still just another form of attachment. Yeah. The Gita says attachment in a version are two sides of the same coin.

So that's totally right. When you're trying to be a verse, you're trying to be opposite all of a sudden. Right. But it's still all of a sudden. Right. But it's still an attachment. Correct. Yeah. The Gita says it in one line. You explained it beautifully.

Perfect. No, no, no, no. You explained it beautifully. Thank you. It's a great point. I never even thought of it like that. I never realized that that's how a lot of people try and deal with it. That's an interesting observation.

I didn't know that. Yeah. So I think I'm still figuring it out. One way I think that really helps is just the way you spend my time in a day. You know, take time to meditate each day. Exercise is just like with a couple of friends, you know, play basketball, we go to the gym, and then you just get this time away

where you're not even thinking about any of these things and you can kind of revisit them with a little more perspective. Yeah. And the other thing is I take a ton of time off between albums. Two years. Yeah, where I, you know, I'm writing, but I'm also like experimenting,

exploring, going to the monastery where you're, you know, like it did like a vipashnuri tree this summer, just just playing around with different modes of consciousness and trying to tap into these different things, reading different books and, you know, hopefully give a little more perspective. I know that's not a super sexy answer, but I don't know if there is one. That was a great answer. I just love your,

when I'm doing these podcasts of everyone listening, I'm not looking for the right answer, or a perfect answer, or a sexy answer. I'm looking for original, unique, you answers, like observing answers, and your observations are valuable to me. Your observations of your fame, the fame of others is interesting to me. And I think it's interesting to everyone listening because that's how we start learning about how different observations can help

us, as opposed to you saying, he is my three step formula for how to deal with fame. You know, some people have that that's cool, but I get more fascinated by observations. Yeah. So I love it. It was sexy to me. Thank you. It's sexy to me. I'm going to move on to the next song that I put out of Lyricon because I think there's just so many and I want to have to say that the music on this album is you being the same. Like when I listened to it, it made me want to focus and be curious and be an explorer of the music. It wasn't just enjoyable. I had to be more curious as a listener, and I enjoyed that process because it required more from me. And that's powerful.

That's powerful when you feel like intrigued to listen more. So when I was doing that, I picked out this line, another lyric, I worked the last 10 years. I'm a multi millionaire, and it's supposed to all be good, and it's not all good, right? Did you take out it? Explosive. I think I did. I haven't swung since I was 16 years old. It's hard. That's right. That's beautiful, man. For a while, I had a rubber band on my wrist and it worked every time I cursed, I'd snap myself and I start cursing you. I took it off. I took it off. No, no, it's great. It's great. But here, you say that. So the question I have here is, where do you think that picture of success comes from? Because you're saying that you've achieved everything that the world would have deemed. Like if you were 10 years old

and someone told you you'd have all of this, now that you're 30, right? You'd think that that's exactly right? We both would have thought that. I'm done. Yeah, you're done. But it's not. So where did that, where, and I really want to talk about it, where do we think that ideas come from? Like where was that put into our psychology? I don't know, because I remember my parents saying things like money doesn't buy you happiness, which is a cliche for a reason that most clichés are cliché

because they're probably in some way true. And I remember hearing people tell me this and I'm thinking nodding my head and but in my head going, you just didn't make enough. Yeah. I'm going to make more than you. I'm going to take it to another level. And this is a never ending chase, you know, and actually when you achieve your goals, can be in some ways, can be more depressing than not achieving them because you can achieve them and realize, hey, I thought this was actually going to solve like all the problems in my life.

I thought my insecurities would disappear. And in my case, like, you know, I got a record deal. Like the sports car and the house and the Hollywood hills. Not the whole thing. I'm sitting there and I realized that my experience of life moment to moment, it is the same. I have all the same insecurities. I'm not like a different person. I'm not any happier.

I'm not actually, I don't think sad or either What is the same and it's the disillusionment that came with Thinking there was this magic bullet Finding the magic bullet and then it not working and going oh shoot now what? And now I think is what the next chapter of my life has been about is the now what?

You know? And there seem to be some promising leads on this map, you know, like we were talking about earlier. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I've loved missions more than goals for so long. Explained. So I feel it. Yeah. So the difference to me is goals are temporary milestones. A mission is a lifelong project. A mission is eternal. A goal is temporary. So a goal is I want to be a multi-millionaire reached. Next goal, I want to be a billionaire

reached. Now we have trilliness, right? Jeff Bezos is going to be the first trilliness, so trilliness. Right? Whatever it is, like that's a goal. It's temporary. It moves. It's a femoral. Whereas a mission is something you're committed to on a day to day, a goal is something you experience every so often. As a milestone, a mission is something that you can experience every single day, because it's a path, it's a lifestyle, it's a cause you're committed to, something that you feel responsible for, something that you feel like you're trying to drive a change or a cultural shift, which takes longer. Was an example of a mission. Even if we take Martin Luther King, so his mission of wanting everyone to be treated by the content of the character and not the color of their skin, that's a mission.

You don't just solve that overnight. That's something that he wanted to implant into humanity. That can go beyond color. that can go beyond gender, it needs to, it needs to, that kind of thought process of loving and trusting and being compassionate and empathetic to all people is something that goes way beyond, do we have independence or do we have a goal or did we get the right policy in place?

Which is so temporary and doesn't necessarily push a shift. Even for myself, like my mission that I've always stated very clearly, clearly is making wisdom go viral. It's like, how do I make wisdom that has been very hidden away or has only been accessible to people who have gone to monasteries, et cetera? How do I make that really accessible to everyone in the world? That's a mission. I've got to do that every day. There's no goal. There's no like, I'm never going to have a button that says, oh, eight billion people now have wisdom. Like, you know, it's not a, it's not a number. It's so clear. That's how I see the difference. But I love what you're saying. And I agree with you. That's why I'm, I think, shifting to a mission versus a goal life still keeps you motivated,

still keeps you meaning for. And it moves away from numbers to emotions. But anyway, that's just my thoughts. Yeah. Good thoughts. No, my thoughts. That's a good thoughts. Some of my thoughts. You asked the question in one of the songs, do you ever get tired being perfect?

Right? And my big question around this is, what is perfection, does it exist, and how do you define perfect? Like, how do you see perfection, the meaning of perfection having changed in the world that we live in today? I think what I was... Yeah, what were you hinting at?

I think, I don't always know what I'm hinting at. It's kind of like sometimes the thing pops in the head and I just put it down. And it kind of like sometimes the thing pops in the head and I just put it down. Yeah, yeah. And it almost like it's not me, you know? Oh, really? That's how sometimes the songs come out.

It doesn't feel like I'm possessed or anything, but it's like, look, you know, you have an inspired thought or a good thought. Do you really get credit for that? Because it's not like you design the thought, that's the whole point of inspiration is like it came to you it came And so you know when I write a song it's like I don't know if I really get credit for that I just popped in my head and I

Basically repeat it what I heard You know Well if I write a crappy song same thing. I don I don't have to, I don't get blamed for it. You know? So, yeah, it's not always cerebral, but what I wouldn't, when I hear that back or, you know, what I think is people that are trying to have the veil of perfection, which I, you know, I've been one of those people and I am at times still. What about you?

Yeah. Do you ever get tired of doing that? Do you ever get tired of like trying to convince everyone that you have it all figured out? You know, that's what I meant. Yeah, I think. And I think we do get tired. It's exhausting. It's exhausting.

I had a friend, actually we have a friend in common in Q. Oh yeah. We were talking to him because we do him and I do this Where we we go out in social situation and there's some little bit of a persona I'll take on You know, even I'm just out of party or something. I'm doing something I'm like trying to be and it's very close to me, but it's not quite me. And it's not always detectable, even to me at the time. But the difference is it's exhausting. And I'll leave a social interaction

like, where as I believe if you're being authentic and you're there, like in the Ramdas interaction, like that, that was rejuvenating as opposed to exhausting. Yeah. Absolutely. You ever felt the exhaustion? 100% yeah. It's like I compare it to a compare it to method acting. It's like being a method actor

where you've so engrossed in a role that you're trying to play, that you forget who you are. And you're just playing that role the whole time. You're basically acting. It's acting. Just actors. Yeah, no, absolutely.

No, I've done that before tons. And it's been the same for me. I think that's a great way you've put it. It's exhausting. That's number one. And the second thing is you start playing it so well that you forget who you are. Right.

So you think it's your reality. Right. And this, I think, is is compounded going back to by fame because with fame, like I think that's a pretty universal thing, right? Where we just talked about it gets compounded by fame because not only are you doing an act that you think is you other people now have an expectation of an act. And you don't want to disappoint them.

So this pressure is exacerbated. Yeah. Yeah. You're spot on. It's compounded by the fact that all these people are expecting you to show up as that person. Correct. Correct. And now you have to show up as that person even if you don't feel like that person today. Correct. Correct. And now you have to show up as that person, even if you don't feel like that person today.

Correct. Yeah, it's like having to put on a Halloween suit every day. Yeah. As in having to put on a costume. It's so funny. Like, I go through so many ebbs and flows every day. And I don't know if this is like normal, other people, but like, look, every afternoon, I get kind of depressed.

Every single one. Like, you know, like, I feel it already, like, I'll get a little tired, every afternoon, I get kind of depressed. Every single one, like, you know, I feel it already, like, I'll get a little tired, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, in the mornings, like, when I first wake up, I'm like kind of slow gets then I'll like, meditate, exercise, then I'm up, you know, and I feel like kind of high in the morning. And it's like, this all the time, and there's all these colors and emotions and

and shades of colors of of how I feel each day and then I'll have like one song of the thousands of songs I write that become super famous that's a glimpse you know just like a snapshot of one of those moments and then there's an expectation that that's you. You know, it's like 11, 13, three years ago on a Tuesday, that's you. And it's like, no, that's me, I had 11, 13, three years ago. That's who I was right then. Well, but this is me, you know.

Yeah, I love that. That is great. And I think you just repeating that and saying that it's putting that message more out into the world for everyone else who's listening to actually get that message too, that let's not be defined by just that one glimpse of our life, whether it's good or bad even, right? Because we just let ourselves be the... Yeah, human being is impossibly complex and beautiful. At the same... Yo, is this the moment this summer? I was thinking about how the difference between what's real and what's not.

You know, like the microphone here, this is real. I would say for, just to our say good discussion, let's say it's real. Like it exists, reality, I can touch it, it's there. And I was under a treat, I was thinking, I have this map, like map of in my head, like where I've got what I've accomplished, what I want to accomplish, I think a trajectory. But then I thought that map is not real, because it doesn't exist anywhere, but in my thoughts, like I just made it up. In the same way that that is not real, who I think I am,

which to me was like my facts of my personal history, my name, my occupation, my age mixed with memories of emotions that I have, like emotional reactions mixed with honestly archetypes, characters from movies or books, all that mashed up, that's who I am, I think my personality, that's who I am in my head. I thought, that's not real either. It literally does not exist.

And other people have an idea of who I am, but it's not even the same one that I have in my head. And it's just, I was spending so much energy like curating this thing in my head and making it look perfect. But A, no one else sees it. B, it's not there, it's not a real thing, you know? It's just so silly.

We do that all day long. I have to do this or accomplish this or act in a certain way in order to keep this or accomplish this or act in a certain way in order to keep this idea of myself, this picture of myself that I have looking beautiful or add some stroke to it. But it's not, it's not there. Yeah, that's true. You reminded me of literally my favorite quote. I say this everywhere because it's it's such an inspiration for so much of my work in

1902 a sociologist named Koolie said that today I'm not what I think I am. I'm not what you think I am. I am what I think you think I am. Right. So we live in a perception of a perception of ourselves, meaning if I think Mike thinks I'm happy Then I feel happy and if I think Mike thinks I'm weak then I'll feel weak So we're basing how we feel about ourselves and how we think others feel about us And that's that picture you constantly trying to mold in your mind constantly like what is this person think? Okay, what do I what do they think? What do I think? How do I what do I add to this and then we get lost trying to mold in your mind constantly, like, what is this person thinking? Okay, what do they think? What do I think?

How do I add to this? And then we get lost trying to build this. And it wasn't even real in the first place. Right. It was just a perception of a perception. You're a funny flip on this, or a addition perhaps, is what I believe is going on in your head is a function of what's going on in my head. Does this make sense?

Yes, yes, yes. your head is a function of what's going on in my head. Does this make sense? So what I suspect you're thinking about is really just the crap I think about because that's all I have. I've never been in anyone else's head. I've only been in my head. I know my thoughts. So I assume you're having some these kind of thoughts. I use the example of weight because when I stopped eating, I had this thinking, I would get hung up on weight. I was always looking at people's weight

all the time, obsessing over it. And I thought, oh, people think I look fat or this way. And I realized they're not thinking. That's what I think they're thinking. And what I think they're thinking is based on what I think. And so it's like just to simplify it, it's like in order to not feel judged, judge less. Because then, you know, if you're not walking around judging people, you'll assume you won't assume they're judging you.

That makes sense. I love that. That's beautiful. In order to not feel judged, judge less. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. It's great advice. That's great advice. That's, yeah, that's a great flip. I like it. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. Now, I want to talk about this because I think it's important for the album that we're talking about right now. Like you lost someone really important to you last year, your father. I want to talk about this because I think it's important for the album that we're talking about right now. You lost someone really important to you last year, your father.

Someone obviously extremely special to you. How's that affected, Bill created this album? How's that have you been processing that? A lot of different ways in some ways, real explicit in other ways, very ambiguous and I'm sure in some ways I don't even see or understand yet. But look, I had an amazing father for 29 years. So the first thing is like when you have loss, you had to have at first had in order to even feel loss. So very this like gently and subtly you can go from this like feeling of being cheated or something like this to just having gratitude for the thing being there in the

first place. And you know, like I'm sure you do and I certainly do. You know, I have a lot of friends I grew up with, Detroit and Southfield that either never knew their dad or dad was in their life the way mine was. And it almost feels like silly to me to be too sad because I had this amazing gift. And how can I complain about having something awesome for 29 years? Say, I should have had it 30 or I should have had it 31. Like, no, man, you don't get to decide that.

That's not for you to decide. So I deal with it in different ways. This is how I feel on this couch. There are other times where I'll be playing my guitar alone in the hotel and I'll start crying. And I'll miss him and I alone in the hotel and I'll start crying. I'll miss him and I'll go, dang, he's really gone. And there are other times where I'll be meditating or I'll be performing. And I feel like, I swear, I can like, feel him around. It feels like an energy, such like a buzzword, but it feels like it's not like he's standing there in his body. It just feels like his, like it's a weird thing to talk about.

No good way to talk about it, but. It's not weird at all. Yeah, I feel like I could feel him around. He's an energy. And there's another part of death, which is quite a beautiful reminder for you to get your life together. Because the real thing about death

that people get tripped up on is it reminds you you're going to die. And this can be a really good thing to get that reminder because it puts in perspective what really matters. And hey, am I doing, you know, a lot of us have a list of things that we want to do when we're done doing what we think we have to do. And you know, my dad died. I was like, I'm next. I look just like that guy. You know, when I look at picture him, he's 30, it's like, it's me, you know. So the next guy, you know, is me. And I started looking back at this list of stuff that I actually want to do and start doing it, you know, start doing it. And obviously, you know, my album is a lot. He's on my

album, you know, recordings of us talking. So he influenced my music this way in a big way, this record. And so, yeah, it's just a lot. It's a lot, you know, it's implicit and explicit ways. He's a great guy. Great man. You know, the older I get, the more I understand how beautiful from man he was, you know, and I think about where I see friends that like have families or kids and really seeing what that actually entails. It's a lot. I think about, you know, when I was on the basketball team in high school, I never played. I was really short and I just sat on the bench and he would be at every single game. He'd be the first parent there.

I remember one time he said, Mike, I'm really sorry. He was an attorney. He said, I have a case. I can't move it. I'm gonna miss the game I remember thinking like all good man. I don't play anyways. I don't know if you notice I just sit there and Remember our it was an away game. It was like in Pontiac, which is, you know, 30-furniture, and I bust, pulled up. We get off the bus like, we're there like an hour too early to warm up,

show, and there's one guy in the stands. It's my dad. He's like, I moved the case, you know, I got it. He was always there. He always showed up, you know. One perfect man, no one is. But yeah, I love that guy, man man forever. He was funny too, man

He was a goofball silly guy and Beautiful, I just this loving loving You know that's beautiful man. Thank you so much for sharing. So openly and that's, you know, for anyone who's ever lost anyone, I'm sure something that you've said here today is going to help them too. Yeah, you know, and another thing I've spoken, there's a guy I know he's become a friend that he's a hospice chaplain. So he helps people die and helps families. And he says, the one thing you could count on grief

to do is to surprise you. So often we feel something, you know, when we have these laws. And the biggest question is like, is this right should I be feeling this way? And the answer is there's no right. Grief is surprising. It's gonna hit you when you're not suspecting it. So that's longer, you know, people expect. Oh, it's been a year.

Yeah, why am I good? You know, it's not how it works. It's not how it works. And for me, I actually wouldn't even sad when my dad died. I thought, man, I had my dad. It was beautiful. He wasn't in pain. All my families here, we having this beautiful funeral with celbranage life. I didn't cry, I was smiling. That's how, it's not wrong, right or wrong.

It's just how I felt. Later, my mom was playing eight months later. She's playing like a checking her voice mail. You know, and she's going through the, and what, she gets to one of my dad when he's alive and he was sick. I lost it. I was like, weeping, man, like a baby, I started weeping. It's not right or wrong, it's just we each have our own path with grief, you know.

Yeah, I think it's so, it's so easy that with a physical scar, you like watch it heal, you can see it. You know that you're applying something on it that's getting it healed, that's getting a scar on it, etc. You can see the wound getting covered and then it disappears. But emotionally, it's almost like, oh, yeah, it's been a month. You must be better now. But it's, you know, you can't see it. And so the only person who's experiencing it in different ways all the time is you, yourself.

And that healing process is totally unique, totally different for each person. And you can't put a time limit on it, or you can't put an expectation on it. But because we can't see it, we kind of just pretend like it's not there. Yeah, yeah, we make up a schedule. Yeah. Hey, it's many years, I should be over this. Yeah, yeah. Basically. Yeah, yeah.

Thank you for sharing that, man. I really appreciate it. No problem. Your dad sounds amazing. He's a good guy. I'm so happy to hear you celebrate his incredibleness. You know, for the time that you had, it's so beautiful to hear that, man.

So beautiful to hear that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And now you're at this place where you're 30 and you talk about being stuck in the middle on your album. So I feel right. And I feel like we've talked a lot about getting to 30 and what's happened before and the songs and the fame and the money and all of this. Like when you're saying you're stuck in the middle, how is your perspective currently on the next? Not, I'm not even going to go too far, but on the next like 12 months, the next, you know, what is your perspective?

What's changed? Where is that stuck in the middle song in the spy? It was a funny thing. It's like a lot of times songs, they've come before I actually live on. The song comes first and then I live out the song after. Sometimes. This is how it is stuck in the middle. The last verse of this song is, people love the old me. I don't know where he's gone. Too tired to be famous, too vain to be unknown. This is how I feel. I have a toe in both like, like I know that I know becoming more famous

or more successful is not really gonna change my life. But there's part of me still that like, I really want to like have more hit songs and this kind of thing. It's like that group has been loosened but my hand's still on it. And then there's this other part of me that like doesn't care. It's like, you know off at the monastery, where in the like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's the polar opposite. It's like, pop star, like monastery.

You know what I mean? Like one day I'm like at the graze, all the day I'm like there. You know, it's like, that's for like, and stuck in the middle. Yeah. But maybe, my friend said, maybe you're not stuck. Maybe you're just in the middle. Yeah, that's where you're supposed to be.

You know? Yeah. I can relate to that. I love paradoxes. I myself feel like a paradox. I felt like a paradox my whole life. I'm right in the middle too. I lived as a monk and I would do media.

I feel so much. But what I do know is that in my own way, I'm refining my intentions on a daily basis, aspiring to use any platform I have for something higher than myself. Because I know myself that after having been among for three years and lived in a monastery in an ashram for three years,

I didn't feel like I was fulfilling my purpose either because I wanted to really give what I learned. And I had this desire to share it because I can't get away with who I am as a person. I've always been driven, I've always been motivated, I've always been someone who wants to share it, so I can't get away from that artificially. If I do, I'll only end up feeling useless. At the other end, I also know that I have to be wary that I don't get too caught up

in the world because then I can lose that monk. For me, I couldn't agree with you more. I think being in the middle is such a beautiful place to be. It requires a ton more work. And that's our challenge. Like that's how I see it. Like you're reminding me of my own challenge to myself that when you want to operate at either end,

ignorance is bliss or wisdom is bliss. And then when you're trying to be in both, you're like in the middle, you're having to, you know? Makes sense. Yeah, makes sense. Does, make any sense. Yes, it does Ignored is bliss when you're like full in the world like full heed mystic. Yeah, wisdom's bliss You're full in the monastery and like having both those and you're like integrated is yeah, that's the real one Small task. Yeah, we're like setting ourselves up for the hardest thing. I'm gonna have to learn from you

No, bro No, bro, I'm here to learn from you. That's why I was trying to hijack you interview and ask you other questions I told my new given like what I'm listening to you like this by the way for everyone who's listening when you listen to this album Which I really really recommend that you do because when I was listening to it I was exploring. Like if you were fascinated by what Mike's saying on the podcast right now, if you're watching this hearing this, when you listen to the album, you'll be able to see it mirror across. It's such a profound piece of work.

Thank you. It's profound. That's the right way to put it. And yeah, if you're a fan of Mike or if you've, I'm sure you've heard some of this stuff, if you haven't, this is the stuff that I want you to listen to. Thank you. But yeah, we spend a lot of time. Yeah, it's weird to make these albums, like perhaps like a dying form of art, the album

because people don't as much listen to them through. But I sort of don't care because I do listen to albums through and I love albums. And so we spend like months on transitions and song order and transitions. They allow my songs will connect. You know, you'll see the marker go from track 4 to track 5, but the music doesn't, there's no change, you know, it's no like break. And so, yeah, we spend like a lot of time on that, you know, it's like, I don't know if anyone's gonna listen. Yeah, we did. Yeah, no, I still remember the feeling of looking forward to an album coming out and like going to buy the CD and like

opening up the pack and like I I still love listening to albums because the songs that you hear on the radio are never anyone's best songs in my opinion. Like they're they're a good starting point but they're like the taste. Right. You know, they're like the free, free meal, but it's like you want you want them you want the full experience with your process is different, right? Like you don't put a single out, put a single out, put a single out test, you kind of build the whole thing because you don't want to be affected by that's what I read from your work when I was doing my research. Yeah, I don't think it's wrong to do it this way. I have a friend, you know, they will, they'll make, you know, half the album, they'll put a single out.

And if, and they'll, they'll see what people say about it. And then they'll finish the album, get with that information. I don't like this way. I like to do the whole thing just, and I don't let anyone hear it, except for my friends that are working on it, but manager doesn't hear it. No one at the record label hears it. No one until I make this thing. How I want how I I think is great. And then I'll play it for a few friends I trust, get feedback. I'll go from there. If the feedback hits me in that tender place where I know that it's right, I'll address it. And if it's not, if I think

they're wrong in my heart, I don't address it. And then I go to record label and say, here's my album. It's done. And that's it. It's done. So awesome, man. I've got the five big questions for you that I always talk about. I want to hear you play as well, but these are five big questions. So the first big question is, what's the best thing you've ever let go of? Best thing I've ever let go of that you're happiest about letting go of. Hmm. Cause you've really cleansed your field, your work, you're doing the work.

So I would say, there's been a few times where I've moved into my van not because I had fallen a hard time because I felt like my positions were weighing me down. So like, yeah, I had this I owned a house in Hollywood Hills and I had a Porsche sports car and I had like more sneakers than I even knew I had I don't know I think I was moving to my van I bought this like a little conversion van and I put this stuff like closing it that I needed in there in my guitar And it doesn't fit very much and the rest I just donated. So I would say all that stuff. Well, let go of it. And it just felt lighter. Yeah. So some question number two, I saw that on your

website, you have a hate mail section. Yeah. Tell me how that all came about and how you deal with criticism. I can't be this from my friend Amanda friend Amanda Palmer, who's an amazing artist and writer. For me, it's just a good way to like, when I was on social media, now I have someone post for me. I'll write the post and they do it because I try not to read the comments. But before I used to be on there, and I probably will have to go back to just to because I like having dialogue with my listeners, but Involved with that is reading some pretty negative things By yourself and before it is just really hurt my feelings

But then I started amassing them and I made this section my website called hate me on I would repost. And suddenly the same message that seemed really mean hurtful. It became funny. Yeah, they were just became fun and I'd like read them out loud with my mom. We both just be cracking up, you know. It reminds me of the last scene of eight mile when Eminem goes and shares all the bad stuff. He already knows about himself Yeah, he said tell these people something they don't know about me. They don't already know about me Right. Yeah, yeah, and it's like when you've done that

It's like no one else has got anything left to say exactly because you've already said it exactly I love that man. Okay question number three the best advice you've ever received. The first one that comes to mind. Probably that Ram Das advice. I liked it. Just love everything. It's way easier. It's way easier. Don't don't. I'm repeating it but you know all day long you know just it's like I like this. I don't like this. I love this. I hate that. Just love everything, it's easier, it's less exhausting. I love it, I love that too. Thanks for being here. Where do you feel change in the world is going to come from individually, collectively, positive change, where is it going to come from? There has to be an internal shift in everyone individually.

I mean, look, all of us know like war is bad. And we know like we need to do more for the environment and we know the planets getting warmer. But our action is not lined up with our knowledge. Right? It's the same things. Everyone knows how to lose weight. Everyone knows. Like they know everyone knows what foods are unhealthy, exercise more, but still, many people with that knowledge do not lose weight, you know, they want to. So what? So people have,

there has to be a shift in the, I think, like what we talked opened up about, you know, that we are not our minds. You know, we are more than our minds. How to deal with minds that have crazy thoughts and have thoughts that don't serve us and don't serve us as a species either. And there's to be a shift to where we actually see our species as a collective. You know, it's like, you know, I see the thing about someone starving in Africa. And it's like, I understand it's bad, but people don't stop what they're doing.

There's still a degree of apathy there. So, and I think this is a movie in the right direction. I think we're getting there. But not yet. It's a great answer, man. Final question. Would you like to play us something? Yeah.

Have a... Do you have a request? Have a special... No, you're inspiration. I always go with your inspiration, I was going to your inspiration. I don't want to think about what I think you're thinking about playing. So, I'm going to let you go with your inspiration. Your answer is inspiration or something Okay. Perfume on my shirt

puts me in the past To tough to be without her But to be afraid to ask Here I am again, stuck in the middle. Here I am again, stuck in the middle. To young to settle down, to old to be in bars. It's hard to take it easy. It's easy to be hard. Here I am again, stuck in the middle

Here I am again, stuck in the middle Here I am again, stuck in the middle of the hole. Forgive me I am building my ship as it sells. How do I become why you want to be while still remaining myself? People love the old age, I don't know where he's gone, too tired to be famous, Here I am again, stuck in the middle. Here I am again, stuck in the middle. Here I am again, stuck in the middle. Woo!

Wow, that's amazing man. Thank you. You're creating from such a deep place man. Thank you man. I'm being serious. Thank you. I'm excited to, it's fitting, that's, I love that song and it's fitting that I genuinely think that if you're able to use this incredible platform that you've already achieved,

and you're able to grow it only for the sole purpose of wanting to learn more and share powerful messages with the world, you're going to have an incredible impact on people's lives, man. Like, I scaled that no one else can. It's going to be insane because you're really doing the work. And I can feel it, I can see it. And I want people to experience that. And I feel like you've been given this incredible, unique talent, not only have you got incredible voice, not only are you such a talented artist,

but you've spent time doing the work. Thank you. And that's going to transpire into people's lives if you just keep doing it, man, in the middle. That's just in the middle. in the middle. That's just in the middle. In the middle. That's stuck. Yeah.

Just in the pocket. Yeah. In the middle man. You want another song? Yeah, go for it. I'm loving this. Nice, beautiful. Wanna hear another one right?

Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Somebody told me God is simply what we don't know. I saw a butterfly, it was dead, but it was gorgeous. And all the robots are just walking down the sidewalk Kings are the little empires that they made up And now find a bit of it Yeah find a bit Yeah, I'm over, woo-hoo, dusty got shot and the no-shut got maybe, Stui still dead and commitment still scary And I got a new woman but I treat her like my old one

If I keep this shit up I know I'm a beaver no one Now I'm open Now why open? Yeah why open? Yeah I don't think anything matters. I don't really care at all. You want to start a revolution, but nobody cares and everyone's tired. Work a little bit harder, and baby so well I high, you wanna revolution But nobody cares, everyone's tired And the common nights filled with a grey cloud, and stripping black all over the playground, and the museums off fill with the Snapchat, got the head of a dog in my backpack

And underneath on my clothes is a snake skin That I stole from the temple when he caved in Cause they built it too close to the fortlight When the capital burned we were all high On the beautiful mess we created There's a thought in my mind this is sacred In the future this will all be ancient And the water and the sink has been tainted

With the air and other governors first born On a second birthday got a surfboard But he crashed it ever since he's been dirt poor So he picked up the guitar he's trying to learn chords And time won't a new constitution A Jimmy wants to start a revolution And the people want to start it all over Cause the poets just murdered all the soldiers

And the monks have got on their shoulders And the world's just another day older I said time oughta new constitution And Jimmy wants to start a revolution My week is wide open Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo, yeah wide open Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo! We need to... I wish there was like an audience here, man. I'm like... Next time! Yeah, we're gonna have to...

When I go do my work tour, I'm gonna be getting you this Try and get you to come sing I'll be fun. Yeah, because oh, that's beautiful, man. Thank you It's it's always more beautiful when the person singing is seeking at the same time. Mm-hmm That was incredible man. Thank you. I feel so blessed being giving you the words that I live. Thank you for having me. It's amazing. No, I hope we're going to continue our friendship. And we are.

For sure. I think it took for hours and hours and hours. Is there anything that I always ask this? Because it's important to me, because like I said to you before that this podcast is an opportunity for me to serve you. And it's an opportunity for me to help highlight the incredible work you're doing. Is there anything that I haven't let you share? You haven't been able to share? You think we've missed? There's a message

that's intuitively in your veins right now that you think about. No, I think we did it. I think we got it. Awesome man. For now, as obviously we could talk more. Yeah, we're going to get together. We're going to do this. I got questions for you. Yeah, I'm excited. Thank you, bro. Thank you so much. Mike, the album is out. We're not sharing a date, but if you're listening to this, the album's out right now. Correct. So I want you to go and get it. Listen to it. I promise you, if you found this conversation exhilarating and it took you somewhere, then then the album will do beyond that. So, please go check it out, guys. Thank you so much, thanks Mike. Thank you so much for listening through to the end of that episode. I hope you're going to share this all across social media. Let people know that you're subscribed to on purpose. Let me know, post it. Tell me

what a difference it's making in your life. I would love to see your thoughts. I can't wait for this incredibly conscious community we're creating of purposeful people. You're now a part of the tribe, a part of the squad. Thank you for being here. I can't wait to share the next episode with you. Hi, I'm Brendan Francis Nuneum, I'm a journalist, a wanderer, and a bit of a bon vivant, but mostly a human just trying to figure out what it's all about. And not lost is my new podcast about all those things.

It's a travel show where each week I go with a friend to a new place and to really understand it, I try to get invited to a local's house for dinner, where kind of trying to get invited to a dinner party, it doesn't always work out. Ooh, I have to get back to you. Listen to not lost on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of Family Secrets. It's hard to believe we're entering our eighth season, and yet we're constantly discovering new secrets.

The variety of them continues to be astonishing. I can't wait to share ten incredible stories with you, stories of tenacity, resilience, and the profoundly necessary excavation of long-held family secrets. Listen to season 8 of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade, our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of

your 20s. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.