On Purpose with Jay Shetty - NOAH KAHAN: Imposter Syndrome, Anxiety & The Pressure of Success (What He’s Never Shared Before)

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Jay sits down with singer-songwriter Noah Kahan to break down the pressure that comes after “making it” - the imposter syndrome, the constant comparison, and the fear of losing it all. Noah shares how music became his escape from anxiety growing up, what it felt like to finally land the record deal he dreamed of, and why success didn’t silence the doubt, it amplified it. Jay and Noah unpack the myth of the “tortured artist,” and the quiet fear that healing might take away what makes you creative. Noah opens up about his recent OCD diagnosis, how he let go of the belief that he had to suffer for his art, and what it took to find his voice again without relying on pain. Noah speaks candidly about his struggles with body dysmorphia and the unexpected therapy of creating his documentary. Together they explore what it means to find balance and to stop performing for the world so you can finally be seen by the people who matter most. In this episode, you'll learn: How to Stop Defining Your Worth by Your Work  How to Face Your Unseen Fears Through Therapy  How to Stay Present When Life Feels Overwhelming  How to Extract Lessons from Painful Feedback  How to Handle the Fear of Losing Your Success  How to Stay Grounded Between Praise and Criticism   How to Prioritize Your Time Over the Endless Grind Whether you are navigating a major life transition or simply trying to find your footing in a loud world, remember that your self-worth is not a mathematical equation based on your latest achievement. No one should have to navigate their mental health journey alone. Join Noah in the mission to prove that the more we share our stories, the more we empower others to do the same. Visit: https://www.busyheadproject.org/  With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe   Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast  What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:54 Seeing Yourself Through the Eyes of Others  04:39 The Childhood Memory That Defined My Career  05:42 Middle Child Energy and the Need to Be Heard  06:57 Music Was My Only Plan A  08:44 The Disconnect Between Fitting In and Being Genuine   11:09 Expressing Yourself Without Giving Yourself Away  14:05 Songwriting: The Constant Search for a Simpler Life  17:25 Every Creative Process Is Different  18:52 When What You Do Becomes Who You Are  24:07 The Power of Journaling Your Lessons  27:05 Does Healing Kill Creativity?  29:48 My Biggest Regret in Communicating with Family  32:43 The Vulnerability of Filming Your Private Life  36:32 Healing and Finding Peace as a Family  43:51 Has Success Made Mental Health Harder or Better?  46:19 The Honest Truth about Body Dysmorphia  52:09 Living and Dying by Your Own Honesty  57:40 The Difference Between Going to Therapy and Doing Therapy  01:00:24 Do You Secretly Find Comfort in Your Pain?  01:02:01 Re-evaluating What Truly Matters After Success  01:05:59 Finding the Strength to Believe in Yourself  01:11:04 Protecting Your Heart While Taking Criticism 01:14:06 Stability Rooted in Love and Marriage 01:20:48 Would You Rather? 01:22:55 Gut Reaction 01:25:46 Noah on Final Five   Episode Resources: Website | https://noahkahan.com/  YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/c/NoahKahan  Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/noahkahanmusic  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/noahkahanmusic/  TikTok | https://www.tiktok.com/@noahkahanmusic  X | https://x.com/NoahKahanSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human. It's easy to look at somebody and be like, your life must be so sick. Man, you have no clue. Talking about the mental illness stuff, it used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically

or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck. I suck. Getting to talk about this is not common for me. Right now I need it more than ever.

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today on On Purpose, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Noah Khan. Noah's highly anticipated new album, The Great Divide, is our April 24th, alongside his brand-new Netflix documentary, Noah Khan Out of Body, our April 13th. Please welcome to On Purpose, Noah. Noah can't. No, it's great to finally meet you. Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan.

And this is awesome. So thank you. I have to say I'm a huge fan. Thank you for sending your documentary in advance. I was, I'm actually really looking forward to people seeing it because it was so raw, it was so vulnerable, super real. I felt like I got to know you before I got to know you today. And then when we're sitting down before the interview today, I'm like, oh wait, this is, I feel like I've already got very familiar with you. It's so weird, like, to know it's going to be out in the world. Like, it was almost like I was able to compartmentalize the process of making it with like not thinking about anyone seeing it so that I was able to kind of be more myself. And then a lot of ways it was like really therapeutic to film and to watch back. It's like a very

heavy experience like watching yourself and getting to see your family. But like my family and I were talking. We're like, we're actually so lucky that we got to be a part of this because how rare is it to get to see how you all interact with each other in a natural way and like how you can kind of take into perspective, like what it would look like from an outside angle and like watching it back. I think my whole family was like, we are really good to each other. And like, we all are funny and love each other. And so it was a really amazing like a chance to see who we are and through the eyes of someone else and through the artistic lens of like a director and, and hopefully soon in the audience, which is, it's just a special thing. So I appreciate you watching

it. It's like my first time talking about it right now. So I'm still like learning how to talk about it and learning how to like express my feelings on it because I'm still kind of finding out what they are but ultimately like I just hope that people that watch it feel connected to their families to their lives to their own insecurities through you know me talking about mine and it was hard and was scary but I think ultimately like those are the things that move people and can make people take stock of who they are so making it there was moments where I was like should I talk about this? Should I really say what I'm feeling? I have this like hyperactive ability to like know how it's going to be perceived and just trying to put away like

my concerns about how people would perceive me and just try to be myself was like a fun challenge and I think helped me in like my own life now. Yeah, well I really hope this conversation is as much a discovery and exploration for you as it is for us and so that I hope that it helps you in the journey of what you're trying to do and the mission and the purpose that's behind it. We see so much of your childhood in it. You talk about it. Like, what's a childhood memory that stands out to you that still defines who you are today? My dad and I in the documentary where we play father and son at the end, which is like the first song I learned to sing and one of the first songs I learned to play guitar on with my dad. And so I think playing that song at this senior citizen's home

in Hanover was like really defining. Because it was like my first time performing and it was my first time realizing that like I wasn't as good as I thought I was. I think I thought it was really good and then I went and did that performance. I'm like, oh, like, this is really hard. And also, like, the song itself is about, like, a lot of it's about, like, aging and kind of like the discrepancy between youth and people that are getting older and, like, the youth feeling like old people don't understand and we're literally doing it in an old folks on. These people are probably like, yeah, the dad character is way more correct than the son character. But that was, like, a defining moment for me. And also, the only time my dad and I've ever performed, like, for anyone

besides our family until we did the documentary. So I always remember that, like, a really special moment of my child of it. That is special. That's special. What were you like as a kid? How would you describe yourself growing up? I'm one of four, like kind of like middle child. Like it's my older brother, my older sister than me than my younger brother. So I was kind of like in my own world a little bit, I think. Very creative, very like aspirational to do something creative with my life even from a very young age. But also like very distracted, distracting. Just kind of trying to be heard even just around the dinner table or in school. Just like trying to make my voice the loudest one to get like. a chance to say what I had to say.

What was your method? Just raising your voice? Just yelling and like, yeah, just being like an asshole, basically, I think. But just trying to be heard and trying to like get the attention that I wanted, just kind of being in the middle and trying to just have my voice be one that people can hear. I was not a great student. I love, I think I was pretty smart, but didn't really care much for school because I always, always, always wanted to be musician.

And truly, like, every year of school for me felt like just one more year of me not getting to go be a singer. So I was just looking forward to being done with school and going to write songs and going to play music and going to do open mic. So very like, I don't know, kind of just like itching and a little anxious to get out as a kid from whatever situation wasn't like going to achieve my dreams. What do you think your vision was for life if this hadn't happened? Like this incredible success and journey that you're on right now. Like what did you envision? I literally never ever thought about it.

Like I've never thought about anything else besides being a musician. In sixth grade, you wrote a letter to yourself that you would open when you graduate high school. And my letter was just... That's such a great exercise. Yeah, it is actually really cool and like kind of sets you up for like sadness a lot of ways. It's like, oh man, I haven't done any of that shit. But for me it was like I want to have a record deal by the time I graduate high school by the time I graduate high school by the time I graduate of high school by the time I'm like, this is cool. I think I made my like, child with itself pretty proud there. And so I remember writing that. And actually, like, throughout high school, I was like, thinking about like, man, I got to get that record dealer. Sixth grade, Noah's going to beat me up. But yeah, it was always my life plan. I think if I, people do ask me all the time about what I would do if I wasn't in music, but it's always with the context of already being in music. I think music is so, my job feels so me focused all the time and

like so centered on who I am and marketing me and marketing my vulnerability and whatever. And so I think just something that would be focused on other people and focused on like helping other people and extending myself to help others spotlight themselves. Just something that wasn't so Noah all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you've talked about how like writing as a teenager was an outlet for feeling different and your anxiety. Like what was that feeling different than that music was an outlet for and what was the anxiety back then? Yeah, it was interesting. I was always trying to fit in and always and like how. had lots of friends, but I always kind of felt like I was hiding this part of myself that was like really vulnerable and sad and going through a lot of like mental health stuff, even at a

really early age. And I think that created this like disconnect in my life or like I was going to school or hanging out my friends and like really putting on to be who I thought would be like accepted and then going home and feeling like really just disconnected from like this presentation of myself all the time. And so writing music was like my own special little thing. And for a long time, I really missed that too, like when it was just my special, my special little buddy, you know, just going home and writing a song and, like, having this other like Hannah Montana thing that I did where like I'll go home and like write music and then go to school and just be like, you know, a class clown and be annoying at school and then go home and like just kind of access to the other

side of myself. So writing music was always away from me to, uh, to kind of have something that made me feel like I belonged in who I really was. Yeah. Do you, you miss that? because you don't feel you get to do that anymore in a certain way? I just feel like everything I do, even like internally on my own, like I just always am thinking about it from like a, how is this going to move my career forward? How do we market this? Like, I don't know, when you like start to be sentient to like who you are

and what your music can represent to people, it can affect like the intention. And so sometimes I worry that I'm not being, I'm not saying things that I feel. I'm just saying things that sound like deep or sad or whatever. And I like to think that the music, that I put out is all stuff that I connect to. But it's just in the writing process and thinking about, like, how do we market your vulnerability in the next album? How do we, like, show people this other sad thing?

And when it's like, I feel like there's all this shit that's up for grabs and up for, like, everything that I have is going out and being taken in and being absorbed or being sold. And I miss when it was just me and the guitar. And, like, the only person in the world that was going to hear that song was maybe my mom. And then my notebook or whatever. So yeah, I miss that.

And I miss having music be just this special thing that wasn't like adulterated by the other side of music, which is not as much fun for me. But what I'm hearing from you is that in your writing process, you're almost using that awareness that you have to go, oh, no, I want to write with intention, and I want to write with my real feeling. And it almost feels like you're using it as a filter,

which I guess you're saying in the past that filtered and exist. You didn't need to. Now you almost have to filter it through that. Yeah. And in a lot of ways it's nice because seeing people respond and I'm not even talking about like marketing or charts or whatever like selling shows out it's just watching people like in the crowd hearing the music and like watching a girl and her dad or frat guys or grown men like out there like feeling the music yes that helps me like it inspires me

to be vulnerable it's just a matter of like towing the line between being vulnerable and trying to achieve what people think vulnerability looks like yeah and sometimes realizing that sometimes something things don't fit into a box. They don't fit into a three and a half minute song. Sometimes the conversation is much larger and being okay with not being able to say everything you want all the time. And just, yeah, even like as I talk about the documentary, just like I'm still figuring out how to talk about these feelings that I express. Like, I don't have a thousand foot view of like what I went through. And so learning how to like express myself without feeling like I'm giving myself away is something that I've been grappling with a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's this,

I mean, just for whatever it's worth, when I was watching the documentary, my wife randomly was walking through the room and she stopped. She didn't even know what I was watching. She just thought I was on my laptop, and I'm watching it, and she walked in on the moment

where you're singing for the little wonderful girl who has cancer. And my wife just stopped, and was like, she heard it, and she was so mesmerized. She came over it, and she just saw the little girl, and she was just, and it was just your music and that moment, and she had no clue what I was going on.

Yeah, she didn't know, and it had an impact in like this, very passive way of even experiencing it. And I think that says a lot about what you're channeling and putting through. That's the most wonderful compliment. That's somebody that I'm sure your wife is a very different background than I do. Or maybe she was from my hometown. I don't know. But just like somebody that's not in my world or in my body or in my experience, like finding a connection within themselves or like an interest in something. I think that's like what mental health, the conversation about mental health for me has been so cool

is like understanding that where I came from is my own and I grew up with privilege and with access and like that people that didn't have that are still connecting to the feelings there and it brings us together and it kind of helps equalize our differences into this like larger similarity of just going through something mentally. Yeah, I listen to you and I'm like, wait, was I from Vermont?

You never know, why does this steal myself? Like, you know, I'm not just saying that to flatter you. I'm like, as a, I'm like, wait a minute, why does this like, why does this hit so deep? You know, and it's such a beautiful thing of like connecting to strangers or people from different walks of life and different backgrounds. But I find it fascinating that you talk about, you know, almost missing this old experience. But then in the documentary, you kind of start it with like this line of, I'm so afraid of losing this special thing.

And it might go away. Yeah. And so it's almost like there's, there's something beautiful about what's happening now too. Yeah. I think I'm just constantly in like a grass is greener mindset and constantly trying to go backwards. I worked with this songwriter in Nashville and he's this older guy. I started when he was in his 40s. His name's Tom Douglas, a great writer. He said songwriting is all about trying to go back and just somewhere simpler and somewhere easier. And I think that's how I live a lot of my life. And I'm very actively, like hyperactively aware of moments as they're there.

And I'm not able to be inside of the moment because I'm so worried about. when it's gone and I know I'll never be able to go back to it. And so in the documentary, you see a lot of me being like this imposter syndrome of like I might not get this ever again, this might all go away. And for having worked for so long for like eight or nine years before I had that kind of moment that allowed me into those big venues and that like more kind of like global success, I guess. I'm so aware of how fleeting and how hard it can be to refine it. And so I think I spent so much time worrying about not being able to get it again that a lot of those moments that wasn't able to fully live in. So when there were moments like Fenway Park in

as you see in the movie, like that I'm able to fully be in, those are so special to me. And you felt you were like that was one of the few times that I felt like I was just there and like looking out and I just felt like so with everybody else in that moment and not thinking about before or after. And you know, that's why that show was so special to me. Like the fans all being there, the venue, amazing. But like for me, selfishly, it was just like, oh, I'm here. This is awesome. I am right where you guys are right now and I felt like the same for a little while. I mean, I feel like I love watching that genuine kind of present yet anxious feeling we all experience like that shot of you lying on the lawn at Fenway, like lying on the ground and

texting right at the beginning. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, you're like, I can't believe I'm here. It's surreal. Yeah. But then you're like, but I'm anxious. And when I watch that I'm like, but that's so real. Like that is the most present way in one sense to experience anything. It's that's the human experience, right? It's like, I always am so jealous of, like, and maybe there's no one exist that can do this, but someone that's just like fully living in the moment, like fully like just accepting things as they come, being right there, experiencing everything and not thinking about the context or the future.

It's possible, yeah, it's possible. Oh, that would be so sick, dude. If you have a guy in L.A. You could hook me up with, like, just implant something in my brain. I don't know if it's tech. I only know the meditative way to that. I don't know the technological way to that. Even meditation, bro.

I'll be meditating and I'll be like, man, I don't think I'm meditating. I meditated so much better when I was young, dude. It's hard. Meditation, like, it's so powerful, but it's so difficult to like golf. It's hard. It is. And it takes a while. The consistency is key for meditation, I think. I'd like to learn more about that from you someday. Of course, right. Of course. I love how you talk about, though, this. I think what I'm getting at is there's, I just feel like you're really honest about how we all feel. I think it's very easy to artists to be like, all right, I had this success. You know, stick season was insane. like the next thing's going to be as big or bigger.

And the reality is I think anyone who's had any success, you're always scared of your next thing. Oh, yeah. Like, that's just such a normal human emotion. And so you talk about this idea of being scared and sad for the next album. How does that bleed into your creativity? And how do you use it rather than be controlled by it? That's a great question.

I'm still learning. I mean, when I was 16 years old, no record deal, nobody knew I was, like, making music or anything. I remember still feeling that way. Like, I wrote a song called Sync. when I was a kid and I loved this song. And then the next day I was crying. So I'll never make anything as good as that again.

So there is no stakes at all for me at that point in my life. But that feeling has chased me around throughout my entire career and was incredibly difficult coming off of stick season. It's because I kept on raising the stakes emotionally for myself to have to follow it up. And for the first year after being on tour for three years of stick season, I was just kind of lost in how to fight that feeling. I had a conversation with a few different artists. I don't necessarily want to name them just because I don't want to put them on the spot.

But they had gone through this themselves, like burnout and major success and needing to follow things up. And the advice was just like, the best advice I got was like, it's just not going to be the same process. And you can't control it. You can't control it. You can't like try to make it perfect. And it's just going to be what it is. So I had to just kind of let go of this idea of like the follow up and just make music for that same. you know, eight-year-old that picked up the guitar the first time and just make music because it's what I'm supposed to do.

Yeah, it's beautiful to hear that you actually reached out to other artists who've gone through similar things. And have you felt that support in that community? Because I think there aren't so many more artists now who are talking about their mental health and are talking about the creative process and everything else. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah, I feel like people really want to talk about themselves, I think, and sometimes it's just getting that conversation started. It's funny because, like, creativity and it's, intersection with self-worth is so difficult for people to navigate. I'm so well said. Explain that for me? Yeah, just I think a lot of times as creative people as writers, actors, whatever, podcasts, you feel like what you do is who you are. And when you're talking, what your job is is expressing yourself.

You feel like when you can't express yourself, you're not good at your job and you're not good at satisfying this need to let yourself out. And so it becomes very lonely because you feel like admitting that to somebody, is not just admitting that you're struggling in your job means you're struggling with yourself. And that can be really, really difficult to say to somebody, especially somebody that you look up to that you think has it all together.

So like talking to these people, it was really hard. Like my voice shakes on the phone being like, I just don't think I can write songs anymore. And I don't think I can do this. And having to open yourself up to somebody like that and be like, and be afraid that they're going to say, well, that sucks, you know? And to hear someone say, I get it.

And I went through that too. I have my own version of that in my life. It just makes the world feel brighter. It makes like the clouds over your head just for a second go away. And you're like at least, even if it's not fixed yet, at least you've been here before and there's a path out. So I'd like unbelievably grateful to those artists, to my family, to my wife, to the people that like sat with me in those feelings

and like observed how I was handling it and recognized that I needed some help. So I'm really grateful to the people that help me. And if you're listening to the podcast, like, thank you so much. And this album would not have happened without them. Everything you just said was so well articulated. I hope you listened back to because it was just, everything you just said about creativity and self-worth just resonated so strongly. Thank you.

Yeah, it's hard to describe. And it's hard to describe it really well. Thanks, man. It's all right. I hope it. I was like, you literally just summed up the essence of. Dude, when I was a kid, I was like, even when I was going through this stuff as a kid, like writer's block and stuff like that,

I would just look up artists with writer's block and hope that I could see a quote from somebody that would just like unlock everything. And I found a few, but like I tried to make a vow to myself to like talk about creative struggle because it's really isolating and really lonely and it just feels you get stripped of who you are. And it's, it just feels like you're drowning. So I always want to try my best to share what I've gone through just so people can can maybe hear it and be understood for a sec. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, not to compare, but to reflect my own experience. I spent the last, from when I started the process, I spent the last 12 months trying to figure out just what the topic of my next book was going to be about. And it was the most excruciating 12 months

in my life because I wrote, I've written two books. This was my third book that I'm writing. And I wrote chapters, threw them away. I wrote chapters that I thought were quite good. And then I read them back and they weren't. And I was overthinking, ruminating and everything else. And then 12 months later, I was like, I'm going to write a book about overthinking. Because that's sort of just done for 12 months. Totally. That's your experience. That's sort of my actual experience rather than writing from a place of knowing, I'm going to write right from a place of what I'm struggling with. And it just... That reaches people. Yeah, but it took me a year to like even come to that conclusion where... And did you feel like when you kind of made that choice internally, like,

did it feel easier and did it feel like the words flowed and like... So much more. But it was because before I was trying to technically figure out, like, I had this really good book, it did really well, and what was good about it? Like, how would I repeat that? And I would repeat that? and what would that chapter structure look like if it matches that structure and people said they love that chapter from that book. And it's like this mathematical process which is not how I wrote that first book.

No, it's never. Yeah. And so then I'm like, wait, why am I trying to be a mathematician? You can only go through what you're going through. Like you can't change the feelings you have even if they're feelings that you don't think are going to be marketable or as successful.

And then you kind of realize like that's actually more compelling than listening to you pretend to be going through something and pretend to have a perspective on something. Like, people relate to that. That's awesome, dude. I'm pumped that you went through that too. Yeah, no, no, no.

Well, not pumped that you went through it, but I'm pumped that you got through it and that we're able to talk about it with like the perspective. No, I'm pumped. Now I'm pumped. I went through it too because for that year, you just feel like you're pulling your hair out going, what are we doing here?

I wonder if the next time that you and I have to do something new, like, I always wonder, are we going to be able to like, is this going to help us the next time? I'm always like, am I just going to be back to zero? do we just forget, do we just get amnesia and start again? Or like, I hope that this experience for me and that experience for you, like, lets you have a little bit of, like, confidence for the next time. Yes, yes.

That's, like, what I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to tell myself, like, I just went through this hard thing creatively. And I'm going to have to be more creative in my life. Like, let's hope that these lessons actually help me instead of, like, just forgetting about them and getting lost in the sauce. Yeah, I feel like writing down these lessons protects them for me, personally like I need to journal about that I need to write about it I need to cement what you just said like this idea this moment where we're having this interaction and be like no I said to me I hope we don't

forget these things I do the same thing I write whenever I like I used to write a good song or a song that I thought was good and then I would put in my notes app like everything I did to get that good song and it's funny because when I'm going through something hard I'll look back and then I'm like okay I'm trying and it's not working uh so yeah it's complicated creativity is so annoying because it like it makes you start from scratch every time and it makes you, it forces you to like use that muscle memory and it's, you know, it's just a

fucking mind. Yeah, yeah. I mean, sorry to swear but it's just a mind. It's a mind, man. Yeah, I remember like Rick Rubin was here like maybe two years ago now and then you get Rick who's sitting there just going like, yeah, don't make anything for anyone, like just make it for yourself and I'm like yeah, like I wish. Yeah.

But it's hard. It's like, you know, it's like. And everyone's journey is so different and like everyone's like creative process is so different that it could be so hard to find the bridge between two people. It's difficult. I mean, again, like, I'm jealous of people that just, like, can write every day and love what they're making and, like, not have to worry about how it's being perceived. Or I feel like writers block, it's so closely tied to, like, anxiety and, like, the self-fulfilling prophecy that you have. Like, if you worry about something so much, it's going to happen, and then you worry about worrying,

and then you're worrying about worrying, and then it's like, it's here, you know? Like, there you did it, dude. You're like, congrats. Like, I hope that I learned. in the process before I get to that place to recognize what is happening internally and like question it instead of just letting it flow and going to this shitty spot. It's almost like we trust every thought.

Totally. And that's such an interesting idea. It's like if you trusted everything you've read on social media and believed it to be true without checking it. But we do that in our mind all day. All the time.

And any thought doesn't get any evidence checked. There's no proof needed. There's no rebuttal. It's like a weird arrogance that everything you think has to be correct. And then you're anxious. about that. Yeah. Oh, dude.

You get lost, though. Angious arrogance maybe is the way to think about it. Oh, my God. I know. It's a little bit of like this ego thing where it's like, oh, I've been,

especially because we all are really doing this in one way or another from since we were children, I think, like expressing ourselves creatively. So it's tied up in your inner self and this like, you don't want to betray this like process that you've cultivated. But like, I never questioned that maybe that process actually wasn't very healthy. And there's a real way that I can make good music

without having to suffer all the time for it. And we look at people like Van Gogh. and these famous artists that like battered themselves to create and we think that has to be how it is. And I subscribe to that theory for a long time and I'm just now like trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in my life

to create good music. Like there has to be a way to access it without living it all the time. The call you almost didn't make. Let me ask you something honestly. Have you ever almost made a phone call and then decided not to? Maybe you picked a call.

up your phone and thought about calling someone. It might have been someone you had not spoken to in a long time. It might have been someone you wanted to thank. Or maybe it was someone you needed to apologize to. But then you hesitated. You might have told yourself that it was not the right time. You might have thought they were probably busy. Or maybe you convinced yourself that sending a quick text would be easier. So you put down the phone. Most of us do this more often than we realize. We underestimate the power of a simple phone call. But when you really think about it, Some of the most memorable moments in our lives begin with someone deciding to reach out. They begin with someone deciding that the conversation was worth having.

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I used to believe that, for sure. Like, I was like, I, I mean, it came into the conversation with when I started taking medication for my anxiety when I was in high school. A OCD diagnosis more recently. Like, these problems were really hard for me and were. disrupting my ability to wake up in the morning and to just be a human being. But I was holding off on getting the help that I really needed for a long time because I was so afraid of it doling my creativity. And then I would look at my creativity and be like, well, this is not pretty very good either. Like, I'm not making anything good right now. I can barely put my pen to the paper. I can barely

even process a single thought. And I was like, I don't want to get help because I'm worried that I'll be happy and I won't care about making something. And I won't feel pain and it won't be painful enough for my audience and it won't be, uh, scale, the feelings won't be real enough for my audience. Um, and it just took like kind of just saying, well, I don't want to live like this anymore. And if it means that I write a happy song, then like I need to get up in the morning. And, and I found that I was still sad in a way that felt more manageable and, and I still had feelings and deep thoughts about things, but I wasn't getting sidebarred by rabbit holes of obsession and rabbit holes of anxiety anymore. Um, and it really was a turning point for me. And it really was a turning point

for me making this record was just like taking the step off of the cliff so to speak into the unknown and not again it's a control thing like I can't control this and it sucked but when I let go is when I like found it again yeah I remember I was in Joshua Tree and I like I've never been to Joshua Tree I'm not even like particularly a huge like desert guy kind of scares me but I was like I'm struggling a lot in my life I need to go to Joshua Tree and like find myself and make music and I had just gotten diagnosed with OCD and it's something I had suspected for a long time and there's so many varying kind of branches of this problem. And so I never really knew where I fit into the conversation. So I didn't want to like get the diagnosis and be like, I have OCD now. I was kind of scared.

But I just gotten diagnosed with OCD and I was in Joshua Tree and I was feeling so miserable when this beautiful Airbnb, like I'm in the desert. I'm like, this isn't making me feel connected. Oh shit. And I was like so lost in that. And so being somewhere beautiful and realizing that the problem was like beyond where I was or where I put my or how nice to studio or the collaborators were, like, realizing that I just wasn't going to be able to do it on my own was like, that Joshua Trade Trip was like horrible, but also incredibly enlightening. So it was like, all right, that was my last try and just like hoping life fixes just for me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I imagine it's also one of the things you address in the documentary is that it's challenging because you don't want to like air your

family's dirty laundry. Like, you know, it's like this, a lot of what you write about is your family and is your upbringing. And talk to me about how hard it is when it's like what you're writing from is your family and you love, obviously it's obvious in your dog that you will love each other and you have a supportive relationship, but at the same time it's hard to do that. It's complicated, man. I think actually, like, one of my biggest regrets is not knowing how to communicate how it was feeling and choosing to do it through the songs that were then marketed to millions of people and heard by millions of people without having that conversation first of saying, hey, mom and dad, like, this is what I'm feeling about, you know, your guys is divorce or whatever's going on, our lives.

my dad's brain injury and these things that like I never really knew how to talk to them about. I'm much better at saying it in songs. It's, I don't want to say cowardly, but it's just, I'm afraid of that conflict sometimes. And so I'm like, I go back to this like, okay, well, I'm going to write it down, like, angsty teen. Like, I'm going to go, like, write it down. But like, when you're writing things down in a journal versus when you're sending them to every streaming platform and every marketing thing in the world, the effect that I feel

have on people is that they feel blindsided. And my mom has always told me, like, she was happy that I was getting those feelings out. She's been so supportive, my dad as well. But I still felt like this regret of being like, I wish I had talked to you guys about this first because it would have been so much healthier. It would have been more fair to you. It would have been probably more helpful for me. And it's hard to like, like you said, air the dirty laundry in a way that's fair to everybody.

And I don't think I did that in my last album. So I've been really trying to be intentional about making sure I, communicate what I'm saying and why I'm saying it to my parents, my family, and this next album, making sure they have a fair shake to say, hey, maybe we, that makes me feel uncomfortable. Like, please don't do that. And the documentary is like another huge extension of that, like, allowing these people into my home, to my parents' homes, into their marriage, into my dad's injury, into my issues with my body and things that will, you know, will be seen in the documentary. It's been really important to, like, be communicative with each other about what people are

comfortable with, why we're doing it, why it's important to have hard moments in there and how it can be helpful for people. Like, I had a conversation with my sister and I'm like always checking in and make sure they're okay with this. And like, it's been this big anxiety thing for me of like, I'm so worried that you guys feel like I'm using you or like trying to exploit our pain or our experiences for my own gain. My sister said it best. She's just like, is it painful to see dad from that outside angle like this. Yes, but like she's like, I really think someone who's going through this in their own way with their parents or their friend or family or partner is going to be helped by it.

And so there's like a greater good to those like just uncomfortable, vulnerable, vulnerable feelings. And that made me feel better like hearing them be supportive of it and not be like mad at me or scared or it's helped me kind of grappled my own anxiety about all of it and about showing the world my family and my life. Yeah, thanks for sharing that conversation with your sister. I didn't know that. When was the first time you kind of talked to your parents about this?

And what was that interaction like? It was hard because when we started the documentary, I don't think I was fully aware of where it was going to go. And I think obviously that's kind of how all good documentaries are. Like it starts out with something that feels small or control. And then it becomes something, I don't know, more universal and deeper. And so, you know, I'm just like, yeah, they're coming to film some stuff. and then suddenly, you know, my dad and I are, like, having this really intimate moment on the porch or a conversation in the yard.

And I think the best way that I've always done, I've been able to be vulnerable is, like, conversations like this where you're not like, here are the things that you have to say. Like, it just kind of happens naturally. But I think we were kind of just like, yeah, they're just going to come film some stuff and I'll probably play the acoustic guitar and we'll leave. And then it kind of like developed into this more intimate, like, vulnerable piece. So I think they learned with me as things were happening, what it was going to be like. and man, like, the first time watching the documentary, because you see it all get made around, you're kind of able to pretend it's not happening.

And I think we all were kind of like, oh, let's think about that later. But when it finally was time to watch it, it was like one of the most stressful days of my entire life, man. Yeah. Yeah, it was... Have you watched it with the whole family yet?

Yeah, so it was... I got it first, and one of the most poorly timed edibles of my entire life. I was literally... I was, like, coming up on this, like, weed edible, and the documentary gets sent, to my inbox and like they're gonna, I'm gonna send it to my family, but I really want to watch this first.

And so watching this, just two hour long, hour and a half long movie about myself was like, oh my God. Yeah, and I'd never seen all the pieces together and how like emotional it was. And my family and I talk to each other like honestly and emotionally all the time, but like we kind of are like, I don't know what's have a drink and I'll see you tomorrow. Like, you don't have to think about it again. So like knowing that this is us like there for everyone to watch

and then I was going to have to send it to my mom and brother and sister who were really right down the road was really scary. And so I sent it to them and like, I think that their response, like, I guess I was hoping that they'd be like, this is amazing, great. Send it off to Hollywood. I think for them it was an emotional experience as well.

And it was like challenging in a lot of ways to watch. I think beautiful at the same time, but challenging them to see, not just like seeing yourself on camera, which is weird. Yeah. And like not human, but just seeing how the themes came together

and like kind of reminded us of this painful thing that we've had to go through as a family. And so it was like a lot of conversations at first about how we felt about it if we wanted to do it or not. I was ready and willing to be like this, let's not do it then. If you guys are feeling any type of way about it, let's not do it. It's fine. You know, when we all washed it together as a family, we found ourselves laughing, crying, hugging and like being so excited because it brought us all a lot closer. And it helped us kind of like actually visualize what it's like for my dad, what it's like for my mom, what it's like for all of us in our own way. And like, I remember this feeling of just like this golden week afterwards where like

we all just felt super connected to each other and we felt this gratitude and it really has brought my dad and I a lot closer in a lot of ways. There are things that I said in that documentary that I knew someday he was going to hear, but I don't think I ever could have said myself because I wasn't brave enough or something or I was too scared. And so like having this vehicle to like tell my dad what I was feeling and tell him how sorry I was for my impatience with him and how sad I felt about what he had gone through. And it created this like connection that I think we never really got to have. And it was really, really special and powerful. And like I said at the beginning, like, I wish every single family could have a chance to watch the way they interact with each other

and to have to get to see what it looks like to love each other and to be a son, a daughter, a father or mother on screen because it really helped us. It's fascinating when that process becomes therapy and healing almost. Did it make your parents re-address any of the things you brought up? Did it start new conversations that hadn't happened before where they said, or when you said this, or when you felt this, like this is what was going through our life? Yeah, it did. I did.

And, you know, like I said, I'm still learning how to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do feel like it helped us address why our reservations were there. And a lot of times reservations are, like, fears were not even about, like, what's actually being shown. It's about us grappling with it being out. For sure. You know, like, I remember thinking about this thing on my dad or I'm like, oh, I don't want anybody to, like, see my dad as vulnerable or, like, going through this hard thing. And I think the truth was that I was grappling with my own, like, shame or whatever about it and my own, like, embarrassment for having my own vulnerabilities or.

And so it wasn't even about like what's on screen. It was about my own internal dialogue about it. And so I think that was really important. It opened up a lot of conversations about like my dad loves this movie. He's seen it. This isn't about him even in this moment. This is about my own shit. And so I need to work through this and stop being like projecting my own fears onto my, onto these

other people in my life. Yeah, yeah. Which was really important and a hard thing to accept. But I think a lot of us had that realization and that was really healthy, I think, to kind of express that to each other. And, you know, painful things, like we don't always want to talk about them all the time. And with people living all over the country and people being in different walks of life and my family and my life, like, it was nice to have to kind of force ourselves to confront some of these feelings.

And it was really healthy. Yeah, it's, I'm only sharing this because it's reminiscent of a conversation had a couple of months ago with Chris Hemsworth who made a documentary about his father's Alzheimer's. Oh, wow. And so it's about his dad's journey. and he's forgetting details. And he felt the same way as you did, where it was like, am I, like, putting my dad's story out there like this? Yeah.

And then what he said was when he watched it, it was really emotional for him and his dad to watch it. But it was actually most amazing to watch his sons watch it because they watched him. They were like, we want to spend more time with grandpa. That's amazing. And he was like, that was, you know, and it's that kind of thing where I'm listening to you going,

like, this is something that your family has come closer together over it. Yeah. Which is why you're saying, like, you wish every person could almost make a mini-doc about their life. And not even share it publicly. Like, it sounds like a healing experience. Honestly, it'd be a cool, like, therapy thing to do. It's not a bit... It'd be very expensive.

But, no, totally. And, like, so much of what we feel other people are going through is really just a projection of how we are experiencing our own pain. I think, like, my dad is the fucking man. He is happy doing his thing. He loves his life. their struggles like in any person's life. And he has, you know, he has had to struggle through this injury. But a lot of it was just me worrying about him and like making it seem like it was his,

for some reason, his responsibility to feel that same worry that I had. And it's not. People experienced their pain differently. And I learned a really good lesson through making this documentary that like my view of the world and view of people's trauma isn't always accurate. And it's not fair to like suggest that they're going through what I think they're going through all the time. I mean, that's huge. If there was any lesson we could all learn. Totally. That's, that's huge. Like, to be able to actually go, oh, wait, the way I process stuff

isn't the way people process stuff. And just because I'm judging this thing, I mean, that's, that's huge. What a great lesson to gain from. It's helped me, like, they're using the word selfish, my therapist, it's like, it's say self-focused, you know, but like, a lot of times we think we're helping people or we think we're speaking some truth into the air. And it's like, that's not at all what's going on with this person. And so getting to see that up close and getting to, you know, my family thing is I, where my family and I were like,

oh my God, we have to send this to my dad. Like, he has to watch this. Like, we're all so nervous that I was going to feel. I send to my dad, he's like, I love it. Very simply like, it's great, buddy, love it. I'm like, wow.

That was like not what I expected you to say. Like, it takes this huge weight off my shoulders and, like, makes me happy that he's like, no, I know, I know what's going on. Like, you know, it wasn't like this like kid's gloves, hey, dad, and just how you look. He was like, oh, hell yeah.

look cool, dude. That's amazing. Yeah, that was nice. And you haven't even had the premiere yet, so I can't imagine how proud he's good. I mean, that moment on the porch, I mean, seeing him choke up, and I kind of be like, all right, we just got to, you know. Yeah. I mean, that's, he's so proud.

Man, that's one of the most, like, I mean, I remember. Tell me by that moment. Yeah, I mean, I remember, it's hard for my, I think for me and my dad sometimes to, like, address these things. And so it's hard to get emotional about it. And not so much of me, like, wants to have that conversation. to hear him say that he gets it. And I just felt like that was the closest we got.

And the fact that it was able to happen for the documentary is amazing. But just for me, that moment was really important. Just like seeing him kind of be like, I know it's complicated and it's hard. And just to see his pride in me and to see his love for me in that moment, even after I'm sitting there, like, critiquing his ability to play the song, which I can regret. I just feel like such a dick.

But I was like, it's like, you know, your dad, you'd become a little kid again. You're just like, come on, dad, just play the right thing. But just seeing him, like, get emotional. But just, I could see in his eyes, like, this conversation that we haven't really had, but I could see, like, it happened, like, between us in that moment, like, telepathically almost. And that was, like, just really, really, really special for me.

Yeah. Yeah. That was something that I really, really, will never forget. And I'm really grateful to people that helped me make this documentary for, like, pushing in a way, like, uh, just. to these moments and to these interactions because it's so easy just to drift away and drift through life and just like go home for Thanksgiving or go home and go out to dinner and, um, as Siza, Zaree had a great bit about like going to see your parents and like how it's the same thing

every time and you leave and you're like, you're happy to leave, but you feel guilty. And I felt that a lot. I'm just like, I feel like I came here and just didn't, we didn't solve or work through anything. We just like, we're together and that can be beautiful, but sometimes you want more. and like those moments with my family allowed us to confront a lot of things and allowed us to have like moments that will remember forever. It's beautiful, man, thank you. I can tell it's emotional.

Yeah, it makes me emotional, man. I just can love my family so much, dude. And like getting to be close to them in this way and this journey has been incredibly complicated for everybody. Like, you know, having my family be really exposed to the world, even just without this documentary, just through my album and through promotion of it and through people coming into connection

with where we're from and who we are has been really challenging. And this just felt like a platform for us to kind of like grapple with that together. And even after and like the editing and the conversation about we wanted to be in the movie, it just allowed us to like heal a little bit, I think. And like just allowed me to find like peace with a lot of it.

And yeah, it's fucking crazy, man. You've talked so much about today, like, kind of we've been weaving this idea of mental health and just how important is to you, the documentary, you speak about it quite openly. Has success made mental health harder in some ways, or has it made it better in some ways? It's so hard to say. Like, my mental health challenges weren't going anywhere, whether I became a musician, like a touring, like professional musician or whatever I am. They weren't going anywhere.

I would have been interested to see how they manifested. I think it's introduced. this lifestyle and this level of like, like I said, this self-focused kind of business lifestyle has created a lot of mental health challenges for me, but also has kind of allowed me to confront them in a way that maybe like if I went to college and went and got a job in an office or somewhere,

I could probably more easily not ever deal with it. Interesting, yeah. So in a lot of ways, I think it's helped me, but it's also introduced a lot of different challenges into my life that you've seen the documentary, but also just wouldn't be there without music and touring and creative struggle and just all the things that go along with being in this weird industry. Yeah. What's your most daily or regular experience from a mental health point of

you that you go through? I think a lot of is just like self-image and that like extends to like physical image but also like mental image. Like I worry that I've just wasted so much time like hating who I am and just like being aware of this thing that's happening to me that like feels like it's grinding me down sometimes and like and knowing that I have this thing and that knowing that it could be better but it's not right now like that's probably my most like I wake up and I'm like why do I feel like shit like I'm pissed it's a beautiful morning the birds are fucking chirping it's beautiful outside I've you know career success aside I have like I have this like lovely little life and I wish I could wake up and not be like miserable for no reason it feels like sometimes and being aware of like those moments

that I just can't feel connected. It's really lonely. And I think that's probably my daily, that's my daily driver, that feeling. I think that feeling escalates and escalates and it comes to these bigger, more intense episodes for me of mental health. But that's what is kind of the backdrop to my day

is like, darn, I feel like shit. It sucks. And I have to just, like, wade through it every day. And it gets easier and there's days that are better and worse. But, like, generally, I just kind of, I'm feeling like I wish I didn't feel depressed, you know? Yeah. I felt it was really brave for you to address the body dysmorphia image approach.

I wasn't expecting that, and I think you kind of really went there. It felt so courageous in one sense to do that and, of course, honest. Yeah. I feel like I don't know, and I say it in the documentary, just like, I don't know where I fit into, like, the world of this thing I'm going through. I'm never really confronted in a way that's. like, and this is how I feel about my body. It's like, it's just this thing that lives in the back of my brain that is like more prominent than other times. And it really came out

the documentary and like watching that back is like even, I mean, man, even my mom was just like, I had no idea. Like, I think she knew I had something like that, but she didn't know like how much it was affecting me. And even just seeing myself, I'm like, I don't feel like that right now, but like I do feel like that a lot. And it's like, it's hard when the thing that you really compartmentalize and you lock away, like is now there. And so it's scary from even to talk to you about it because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to, I know how much of an issue this is for people and how it can ruin lives and how hard it is for people's mental health. That I'm always so afraid that I'm like, I don't want to represent an issue because I'm afraid

of like saying the wrong thing or giving advice or like, I don't know, of like making it feel like I know what I'm talking about because I have no idea. It's just a thing that is there within me. And yeah, really, really difficult concept because it's so tied up in who you are and just feelings you've had since you were a kid that like it's hard to describe like the body dysmorphia problem succinctly. And I, as you can hear right now, I struggle. I struggle to do it. But it's complicated, man. And it was easy. I think it's easy to say like I want to talk about that. But when it comes down to talk about it, like I don't feel eloquent at all. I don't feel articulate. I feel like it's just just like dreamlike stance that I, that I have to fall into. It's weird. I think it's a strange challenge that we put on ourselves and other people to properly articulate these extremely nuanced daily, regular feelings that don't always make sense. Like, in one sense, we're trying to finally package up some perfect words around something that changes how we feel about it daily. Yeah.

And it's almost an impossible task. Totally. Because you're absolutely right that you can feel something one day, people feel it differently. I just felt like you don't see a lot of men, especially. being able to say that publicly. And so I think it's going to help a lot of men and just even coming to terms with it. Yeah, man. I remember like I have this song called The Shape of My Shadow, which was weirdly one of those like our moments where I like felt really aware and understanding of my struggle with it and like it goes away. But in that moment, I wrote this song and played it

live on World Mental Health Day in Florida a few years ago. And was like hearing it being heard for the first time and then walking off stage and like having people in my crew and people in my life come up to me like dude like men especially be like I go through that too wow and like that was fucking cool that you did that bro like I feel that one and like people that I wouldn't expect I think you think like body dysmorphia and like you're looking like you're like physically looking at somebody and like how do you look like is this person look overweight then they'll probably connect with her is this person look really skated they'll probably it's not how it is man like it's almost not even about your body at all yeah yeah it's

for me, it's not even, I don't think it's even about like what I actually appear to be is how we think of ourselves. So these people coming up and saying that to me was like, this is like important. Like this, this is something really, really difficult to articulate and to talk about. And like, the fact that I just had three people that probably wouldn't have said anything to me if I never played that song. Come up and say like, hey, dude, like, thank you or like, I get that. That's huge. It was really special. And it, like, makes you feel like more sensitive to people. And like, you just never fucking know what someone's going through, man. Like you really don't.

Yeah, yeah, you don't. And it's easy to, like, look at somebody and be like, your life must be so sick. And then be like, man, you have no fucking clue. Yeah, yeah. And you assume that, right, if someone's, like, put together or looks a certain way or maybe they're making a decent living or whatever it may be. It's like we just go, well, okay, well, you don't have any real problems.

So, you know. Yeah. Oh, it's such a good point, man. I always, whenever I come to L.A. and do, like, anything like this, I'm always like, oh, yeah, like, I get driven here in the black SUV. and I'm going to come here and complain about my shit. Like people in the world right now going through so much. And it does feel like there's a push and pull of like,

how do I talk about what I'm going through without being insensitive to like people who are struggling in much more significant. Are just different but significant ways. Well, also not discrediting what I've gone through at the same time. It's been a real challenge for me to talk about. I hope that in the documentary people can see that through line through everybody's life that regardless of sex, creed class, gender identity, race, that people can like find things that connect us, like these feelings that are painful. I like to think everybody's experiencing

something similar in some way. And maybe that's not true, but that's like my hope is that there's like, world peace. But like, we all can have a conversation no matter where we're from about our mental health and how it's affecting us. And like, we can hear similarities in some things. And that's what I hope is true. Because with every, everything, you know, that's going on in the world right now, like how, you know, divided the world is and how awful people are being treated right now, that we can find ways to be brought together through vulnerability and through being honest with each other about how we feel. So is that how you think about making an impact on the world with everything you see? Is that where you focus? I think just trying to be like completely honest about how I feel, like, whenever I can. Because then it doesn't feel like you have to perform. And I was talking to somebody last night at this. like weird party thing uh and i was just like dude if you start making music like trying to sound like somebody then when the time comes to like you want to be yourself you it's gonna feel like you're lying

yeah so like if you can just be as honest as you can and like accept whatever that does for you socially career wise emotionally like live and die by that because then you never have to change and you never have to adjust your presentation all you have to do is reach within which you've been doing forever anyway. So yeah, that's well said. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's the difference also between actors and musicians. Like, you know, an actor does have to pretend to be someone. And yeah, that does affect their personality and it does affect their self-image. And it, it can deeply affect everything from the way they speak to the way they look or anything. Have you done acting? I have not in a any, yeah, not in any major way. So I always wonder how you bring, I wonder if the

best actors bring in, like, they bring in more of themselves in a way to this different character so that it like creates something relatable. Yes, yeah. So I did. I think, I think, I think there's, I forget what the technique's called from some study that I've done in the space with some clients that I have, who are actors, and they talk about that, where it's like, if you, you can't pretend to have an emotion. So you've got to find the emotion or the experience within yourself to bring it out. But at the same time, I think a lot of people, if you're, especially if you're doing a biopic, you can find the emotion within yourself, but ultimately you're still becoming someone else to some degree. Is there a part of you that feels that way? And like, how do you get comfortable approaching that? It almost reminds me like, oh, the music and the documentary of just like, how do you go back into this space over and over again? Like, it's painful, dude. It's got to be painful because we all have like smaller. I think some people have bigger parts of that kind of character than others do. But like, I think we all have like cynical parts of us and like angry parts of us. But like some people just don't have as much access or don't have as big of angry bone inside of them.

But like, it's got to be hard to have to like live in that moment. I think that's actually where real compassion comes from. Like when you can look at your own heart and notice that it has all of these abilities and has aspects of all of these things that you may not live on a daily basis, but you start seeing it, you go, oh, I see how that comes out for someone else

because I've seen that in me. I know. Even if it's tiny, if that makes sense. Totally, man. So I always think, like, the goal isn't to be, like, a perfect person at all. Like, the goal is to understand the parts of you that make you happy and like try to access those but it's also important to dip into the stuff

that like you don't like and to question it and to approach it and look at it in the documentary I say like I'm finally looking at this thing like it used to be I think I'm you know talking about body this more if you're just mental the mental illness stuff like it used to be this thing that I was like ashamed of in such a big way that I wouldn't even want to look at it like I would just like sprint past the door where the thing was inside and now I'm like finally like just like brushing it with my hand, you know, I'm being like, all right, like, this thing is in there. I'm getting better at approaching and I'm getting better at, like, understanding that it is there and not being so afraid of it. Yeah. That journey has been helpful for me. Yeah, it's almost like the monster

under the bed. Like, if you pretend that it's not there, you know it, you're scared. It just gets bigger. Yeah, it just gets bigger. And you've got to go and check and know, it's that, oh, okay, brushed apart. You know, it's so important. And I think for so long, like, of course, we want to be in the light. we want to do good work, but you can't avoid the darkness and those elements that exist. As you said, our shaming guilt. Yeah, you can. Like, it does find other ways to manifest. And I think it's much healthier to, like, at my opinion, like, sitting down with a therapist is, like, the most important thing you can do with these feelings.

It's, like, expressing them in a safe, unbiased place where, like, you could say whatever you want and not feel like you're going to be judged for it. Because if you don't, I do feel like we have to find a way to cope, but we have to find a way to keep not feeling it. And like addiction, you know, for me eating, binge eating, not eating is how I deal with a lot of stuff. And I'm realizing that's because I don't talk about it enough. And so I keep wanting it to go away and go away and go away. But then I find myself engaging in these behaviors that really make me unhappy and make me feel even worse. It's just horrible cycle of just like, the thing you think you're doing to help is actually making it harder. And then it just kind of repeats itself and repeats itself. And you do it for so long that the grooves in your brain, there's a little,

train going through your head that only knows one path and like it gets deeper and deeper and deeper and it never has a way to go anywhere else because you just have lived this one routine for so long and so you know going to therapy which i've been doing my whole life but i feel like i wasn't really doing in a real way until like five or six seven years ago where i started to really like go into it what was the difference between going to therapy and then doing therapy yeah so like i said I like my mom and my dad were always so supportive of me like and my siblings going to get help and going to talk about her feelings. We've all kind of gone through a lot of similar mental health struggles. Thanks mom and dad.

No, and they've been so supportive and like always since I'm a therapist. But I think like for a while I was just immature and like didn't want to talk to somebody. And also it's hard when you're a kid and like to be like, oh, this 48 year old dude is like here to ask you about all this stuff. and obviously you're like, I don't want to talk about it. And you can kind of live your life for a long time, like saying the right things, but not actually like really letting anyone hear anything. Yeah. And saying things that sound like you're being emotionally vulnerable or picking and choosing

different things that you'll talk about and certain things that you won't talk about. And it's all connected. So when you start doing that, you're actually not really touching the whole thing, which is it's all connected to like one larger mental health thing. It didn't sound very eloquent. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, like is I didn't really commit myself to getting better because I wanted to selfishly, self-centeredly do it on my own and only like express certain fears and emotions to people because I was still afraid

of talking about them. And I think when I started seeing this new therapist and so much of it is about the person you see. So I've had bad experiences with therapists and like once you open up to somebody and they like, they don't respect that. It becomes really fucking hard to go talk to somebody else. Like it's like you open up to a friend and like you. It's like a break up. And then someone uses that against you or they laugh at you or they like make you feel crazy. It's not like, okay, I'll try it in the next person. It's like, no, I'm never touching that again. Yeah, yeah.

You're carrying that. It's like a breakup. Like you hurt me and like I'm not opening myself up against. 100%. So it was kind of being willing to open up again, finding the right person and then like feeling safe. And then slowly just like realizing how much more there was than the kind of headlines of what I thought my feelings and issues were. and being asked questions that maybe dig a little deeper

and being willing to cry and say, I don't want to talk about this. And what was really complicated for me and what's still complicated is like, and I do say this in the documentary, is being a mental health advocate, you know, like having this mental health charity, which like we're also proud of.

It's beautiful, really beautiful. Thank you. And presenting myself as someone that like has an answer or has like a focus and like is going to be really open and emotionally vulnerable all the time and then not feeling like I was really practicing that in my personal life. it makes it hard in therapy to like accept that I don't have all the answers and it kind of creates

just feeling like you're not being honest about who you are and that was really difficult. What's the what's the best question your therapist ever asked you? I think it's like do you want this to be what's happening to you? I know in some ways like is it so much easier for you to cause yourself pain and to hurt yourself and is that actually something that is bringing you comfort? like is this like in pain that you're inflicting in yourself emotionally, occasionally, physically? Like, is it actually something that you have become

comfortable with? It's like, is it this long time friend of yours that you don't want to leave because you feel like you're betraying something and like betraying this childhood pain or whatever it is? That was a great question and made me think about it because I think I've always been like, I hate this thing. Like, I want to get rid of this, but like, no, I sometimes I'm like, no, I don't.

Yeah. Like, and she's like, I don't know if you do. Like, do you? because it feels like you want the comfort of this thing you've had for a long time. And it's become such a big part of your life that you don't know who you are without it. And it's scarier to be someone that's happy but not familiar with something than to be unhappy but feel like you're in the safety of your own unhappiness. Oh, that sounds great.

You showed my reaction. Damn, dude. I put that in the song. But that was like the most important thing. I think she's asked me and she's asked me, she's just so wonderful. I hope my therapist isn't watching this,

but thank you so much. But that question really helped me understand the context of what I was really feeling. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people would get a lot from asking that question to themselves or hopefully going through that with their therapist. I think you said,

in the 2024 Grammy party, you were like talking about parties earlier, you were saying you felt like the least cool guy there. And it was like, that was the feeling you were having at that time. And that goes back to that image and grappling with that emotion. And is there a bit more peace now? Because that was your first time being there, right?

It was like your nominate. Like, do you think that is natural when you're doing something new and first time? And then it goes away. Like, what you're- Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, like, I think I really, like, wanted the experience to be what I'd always dreamed of because I'd always dreamed of that experience.

And so, like, I got in there and the vision of, like, what I thought I was going to feel and what I thought it was going to look like, like just wasn't what it was. and I just kind of felt like outside of all of it, and it wasn't anyone's fault. It was really just me not having the confidence to like engage with this new experience and wanted to be comfortable. And so I felt really isolated. And then my mom is like talking to everybody and everyone loves her.

And like, I'm like, damn, my mom's so cool. And I'm just sitting here. My mom and Brandy Carlis are talking and like my mom loves Brandy. And like I just kind of felt like the kid in the cafeteria that like didn't have anyone to sit with. And just knowing that like, the end of the night, the only measure of success I was I was putting into the night was if I won this Grammy or not. Because I had built this thing up to be so important to me.

And so it kind of made me feel like I had no purpose in the room. I felt like my purpose was no longer needed. And that was no one's fault. And it was on me for putting all the stock into this award. But I didn't feel cool. And then I lost, along with many others. So I'm always curious to see how they would deal with it. because I was so sad and I was like obviously happy for the person I won truly and like grateful

that I was even nominated and like just like walk into a room full of people who like I was so worried we're going to be like disappointed and like not mad at me but like almost like their experience was that they wanted me to win. I was projecting how I thought everyone wanted this night to go. And so like walking into the room with like my family and my friends, my wife, like all these people my team would work so hard and like just feeling the disappointment like just really made me feel like I was on an island and that I like had let everybody down in my life. And I feel like, I feel like I let my fans down. I was like, I wanted this so bad. Like, yeah, sorry guys. We wanted it for you too. Yeah. Yeah, I think they did, man. I know that's not the case,

but this time it's like, I feel like I've gone through so much since then and like reevaluating what I care about and like realizing that what I care most about is the story that I can tell with my music and the music that I can make and that no one can take it away from me. no one can vote on it and no one else can have it and like nurturing this thing. And so coming back, you know, having a new album, feeling like I'm really excited about it, really proud of it, proud of the journey that I went on to get to making this album, which was really difficult. And like, that's where my confidence is coming from right now, not from whether I have

good songs or not, but just knowing that I went through something and I'm on the other side now. When I was at the 24 Grammys, I was like grappling with all this creative insecurity and this insecurity about where my career was going to go. and I thought that a Grammy was going to like like that like thing on the image you see on like like a meme or whatever like the guy puts like one piece of duct tape on the giant exploding water tank like I think that was what I was hoping the Grammy would be for me.

That's good. That's really good. And like it was never going to be that anyways. And so like knowing that now makes me more like at peace with just like being able to be in this conversation, being able to be amongst the peers that I have that are incredible musicians. And yeah, I think, I don't feel cooler, but I feel more comfortable in like my own skin and my own presence. Yeah, I really appreciate the way you process that for us because I think 99% of us are always

dealing with situations where we felt like we lost or failed. But it seems like you've addressed a really powerful pattern that I think's come up a few times in that when you're watching the documentary with your father, you're like, wait, what's his experience of it? And even now when you're talking about being at the Grammys, you're like, what's everyone else's expectation of experience of it? And it seems like you've really addressed like a really powerful pattern of something that seems to come up for you, which is always projecting what you think other people's experiences.

And that's really powerful that you can see that as being a sign of whenever you're doing something big or incredible. Bro, projection is like so difficult because it forces you to question like everything you've thought about other people's perception of you. And also like as my career has like grown,

like there's, I mean, you saw it today. I'm most lovely fucking people around me in the world. They're wonderful. Yeah. Amazing. I love you too. Every single person that I get to work with, like, is awesome. And that's very rare, you know, especially in the music industry where you get people that are like there for the wrong reasons or whatever. But like, whenever you go, you have style and hair and PR and management and label and whatever agent and all these people around you, like, you kind of feel like they're like they need it to go well. Like that's a projection. And so you start like being like, are you guys having fun? Like, are you guys doing this? Are you guys enjoying this? Like, that I do good enough for you guys? like dad energy and kid energy at the same time. Totally, dude.

I think it all ties back to like that thing around the dinner table and like wanting to be heard and wanting to be accepted and wanting people to think that you have value. And when you can't find that in here in your heart or in your brain, like you needed to be provided by other people. And I'm struggling with that right now, like just with my album coming out and just like how I'm going to like take in responses to it, good and bad. I think like every good comment and every bad comment, like have a similar, I have a similar reaction

from me actually. Like they move me so much. You know, like if I said, someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck. I'm like, I suck. Like, I want to find somewhere in the middle where like I can still have my own belief on myself. Equilibrium. It's a great way to put it. I would love to find more of that in my life. Yeah. And it's such a hard place to live because we are so used to being really pumped up with the highs. And I always feel like the more pumped up you get with the highs, the more pulled down you get with the lows. And that's that experience we all have.

And all I can say is honestly, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this with your team listening, but I listened to what you did send us with the team, with my team, because everyone's a fan. And everyone loved it. And it was just like this is like, you know, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it was genuinely that experience where we were listening to it. And because as we were, I was thinking about the interview and I was thinking about like, I know no one's really thinking about this. I mean, for whatever it's worth. And I think that equilibrium is what, we all need to rise for. It's something I pursued deeply and

focus on. And I found it was only when I could detach equally from the good and the bad. Totally. And it was like, if I kept letting the good pump me up, the bad was always going to hit me. And so I had to find, and it wasn't rejecting the good because that also didn't work. For a while, I tried to like reject good. How do you do it? Yeah, if someone was like, well, I'm still working on it too. I haven't fully figured it out, but I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. So in the beginning, I was like, same as what you're saying.

If someone says something good, amazing if someone says something bad, I feel sad. Then I did the opposite where I was rejecting both. So if someone said something good, I'd be like, oh, whatever, like, I don't need to know. And if someone says something bad, I'd be like, oh, I don't need to know. That's the part I'm at now. Yeah, and I was like, that doesn't work either because now, and then what I started to realize was, I allowed the good to go in deeper and I allowed the bad to almost be filtered more clearer. And what I mean by that is, instead of the good going to my head and my ego and my, that kind of like arrogance, it was going to my heart as fuel for like, this is why I do what I do.

So if someone said to me like, hey, your work, you know, which you've had like your work helped me to save my marriage or not commit suicide or whatever it is. I was like, oh, let me really access that. Like don't just take it as like this buzz. Like dopamine. Yeah, it's like take it where it lands. And then when you get back, when you get feedback or you get the bad, it's like, you're like, Oh, let me not take that to my heart and let me actually allow that to be like,

or let me get the clarity of what could I improve or what could I work on. So complicated, man, but it's so smart. It's subtle, it's so smart what you just said. It's subtle, but it's helping at least. I'm not saying it's the end. I think there's multiple layers to it. Can I ask you more about that?

Of course. Sorry to interrupt you. Oh, no, no, no. Like, letting the good in, and I totally feel that because I think I've started to do that as well. It's like, this isn't just like a dopamine hit. Like, I'm not putting a Zin in my mouth right now. This is like there's something there that's important

that like I have to internalize. to help me do it again and do more of it and like to kind of like hone in on that specific thing. But how when someone says something hurtful to you or like I guess it's like hate versus criticism or two different conversations, but like when someone says something hurtful to you, like how are you taking that in?

How do you let that in? It just like it can like sits in my stomach and like makes me feel like shit. Oh yeah, I can relate. Yeah, horrible. Yeah, it's the worst. I think what I've tried to do is to try and separate

if possible, and not everything is, right? It's like, if you've got muddy water, there's mud and water, and my job is to get the water and remove the mud so that I can give drinking water to myself and the people I love. And so my job is to be a sieve or a filter to be able to go,

all right, let me take the mud out, which is the sting, the pain, the hurt, the ego, the arrogance, and see if there's any water left for me to hold. And if there is, then that water will actually rest quite beautifully and perfectly. And now I don't have to take it in. It's something I just have to hold

and make space for, but I'm not going to hold on to the mud and the sting and the arrow because that's the part that pierces through us and breaks us down. That's really, really beautiful, man. Yeah, and it takes practice. Like, I'm not saying I do it all the time and I'm not saying I don't fail at this all the time,

but it's like, I think that practice has been really helpful because accepting both didn't work, rejecting both didn't work, and the Buddha always talked about the middle path, and it's always like, if you're going to hold something, don't hold it too tight, but then you can't hold it too loosely. So it's like how do you hold something just beautifully?

It's almost like how you'd hold your wife's hand. I don't want to go from Buddha to golf, but golf. You want to have like a bird in your hand that you're not going to crush, but you won't like get away. That's a Buddha. That's actually, that's actually fun. Oh, no way.

We got to get you on the golf course. But dude, that's it. Like if you're holding your wife's hand, you're not going to squish it where it's like, you're like, oh, you're never going to leave. But you're never going to hold it softly where you don't have any affection. It's like, how would you?

I feel like holding my wife's hand is like a good. That's a really good analogy. I mean, that's a really brilliant way to do it. I have like really struggled to accept criticism and like, and, I mean, any like hate or anything like that.

Dude, me too. And I think there is a difference. Like, I think you have to. There's some shit that's like, oh, you know,

like there's some stuff that's like that. Yeah. But even criticism can be hard. Like, for sure. Take it so hard. And like. And I think it's hard because we don't deeply receive in the heart the good. Yeah.

It's kind of because it's just the dope. Yeah. So it's like we deeply received the bad. That's so true. And then we just like, that's all I actually feel, right? Literally. I think that's why we like, sometimes I watch like these horror movies and I'm like, oh man, I hate the part where they're all like happy in the beginning. I'm like get to the part where they're all getting chopped up. You know, that's like this thing inside of us that like that feels more like for some people. For me, it feels more like that's the stuff that reaches you more because it's painful and scary. Yes. I'm not a psycho. But dude, that's really, really eye opening for me. Like, and I want so bad to. work on that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm, like, accepting the good, too. And I, I'm, like, I'm a rejecter of the good a lot of the times because I, it's like, this superstition of like, if I let any good in, then, like, then it'll all go away because

I need to be, like I said, like, I need to be in pain. But there's got to be a way, like, to take it without it killing me, but with also, like, in a way that I can take the lesson away from it. I love that, man. No, you've been amazing today. Like, truly I've, I feel like, you're the easiest guy to talk to. you're like so much fun to hang with like i'm like i hope we get to do this offline but uh me too man we we end every episode with a couple of segments that i want to take you through these are fun uh because

you're such a fun loving guy so now before you go though i want to say thank you man because like getting to talk about this kind of stuff in this way like it's not common for me and so it really means a lot like in listening to you care about the questions you're asking and the responses just for me it's been like really cool and um you know i've listened to your show and and and everyone says like this dude demand and like you are awesome and like your intention like into the world for what you're doing is really really special and right now I need it more than ever so thank you dude like for real you're the shit like I would say this off camera I'll say it on camera like you are awesome bro thank you oh man that really touched my heart thank you for saying that I mean it dude I'm uh I'm practicing

I'm practicing what I said earlier which is really allowing that to and I'll say something shitty to you uh yeah and then I'm gonna try and figure that thought not man thank you bro I think it's no that honestly that means the world for me coming from you and this is like, this hasn't even felt like an interview. I feel like, honestly, like those are my favorite conversations

where I feel like, we've just been talking and I could talk to you for another few hours. I was like, I know if fuck, it's over, I'm going. I can keep going.

I just want to be mindful of your time. But these are some fun segments because you're such a fun loving guy to end with. And I was like, yeah, this guy's music's so deep, but he's just such a good time.

Like it's, so all right, these are two little games that we got and then we have a final five that we do with every guest. If you've listened, you'll know. This is called,

would you rather? All right. Wave back at someone who wasn't waving at you or tell you a server at a restaurant, you too, after they tell you enjoy your meal. Dude, there's nothing in the world worst

in waving at someone that doesn't wave back to you, bro. It's got to be the server one because they walk right away. The wave one, they're like, they're going to see that for a few seconds as they pass you.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Waywards. Okay. Trip and fall on stage at one of your concerts or forget the lyrics to your song

while performing on national TV. I've tripped and falled so many times. Tripped and fallen so many times that people are like almost expecting it. So I'd say tripping and falling. Forgetting words with nothing TV. That sucks. And you just pop right back up. You just got to get back up and go, dude. That's amazing. Be extremely self-aware or completely oblivious. I mean, you're just talking about this. Ooh, I want to say be completely oblivious, but like, it would kind of like spit in the face the conversation we just had. I'd say be completely

self-aware because there's always room to, you can make yourself a little bit more oblivious if you want to. Yeah. Send a text by accident to the person you're talking about. Or accidentally, like a really old photo while stalking them on Instagram. Oh, it's so tough because the text one could be terrible depending on what you're saying. But liking the old photo is like crazy. Like I've had that happen to me, obviously. And like people are like, dude, what are you doing? The amount of times he must have scrolled to get to that photo, I think sending a text by accident.

But those are both bad things. They're both bad, yeah. Your dog can talk and has a very strong personality that clashes with yours. Or your dog can't talk, but they don't really like you. That's what I already have, dude. I have German Shepherds who look at me. they're just like, yeah, you're going to play video games again? Another spliff?

Great. Like, I think probably dogs that don't like me because I can convince myself that they're just like, look mean. I love it. Play around with Tiger Woods, but you accidentally hit him with the ball on the very first hole. Oh, shit. Or play the best game of your life at a fancy country club,

but you're alone and can never tell a soul how good your game was. Oh, dude. These are really hard. Yeah, they're very hard. I think I would probably curl up into a ball and die if I hit Tiger Woods with a golf ball. I think I'd have to just play by myself and play well, which doesn't happen to me anyway, so perfect. So it's not really a choice.

Yeah. All right. So this game's called gut reaction, Noah. Just complete the sentence. My favorite compliment to receive is... I love your shoes. I love getting a couple of my shoes. I was actually going to ask you where your shoes are from when you walked in today and I waited

because I was like, I need a pair of this. It's happening. It's happening. It's happening. I was genuinely going to ask you. I don't know. I've been looking for shoes with those laces for a while. Yeah, these kind of laces are nice.

Yeah, yeah. I want I want yeah all right we'll talk about shoes later my guilty pleasure artist or song is oh send me on my way rusted root

okay all right the most unhins thought I've had this week was oh dude I was driving and I was had this untrusive thought where I was like that's probably like some OCD shit but I was like

I could just like swerve over to that lane and just like everything up bro like everything I've had that thought before you isn't it crazy it's so crazy and then you're like

wait a minute why do my brain go there you're like oh Jesus Christ then I'm like rearranging my head hands to make sure I'm like very much staying on my own lane. But that's probably my craziest one. The hill I will die on for no reason is. Mac and cheese is just like not very good. I think it's like a pretty creatively boring dish, like literally just wheat and cheese melted. Like I feel like a caveman

probably was the first person made back in cheese. And I think people go a little too crazy for it. People get too excited. They make it in such large quantities as well. You and my wife would have a big debate over that. People really don't like when I say that. Yeah, you and my wife read. The weirdest place I've written a song is, I wrote a song in the bathroom of JFK one time, which was crazy. I think I was hung over and it just came to me and I was like, this would be a fun story to tell if I finished this song and I wrote a whole song in my phone. It hasn't come out, but if it ever does, that'll be a fun one to tell.

Okay, so it's not out yet. Yeah. All right. mini toothedropops and I'll sit there and one bite just crunch the entire thing. I'll do like 50 in a row. She calls it crunch time. And it's just hilarious because you just hear my teeth like shattering against the lollipops and she's like, I think she just hates it. I don't think she makes fun of it as much, but that's a weird thing that I do around my wife. Do you do it on purpose now? I just love it, dude. I don't have the patience to like lick it or whatever.

I'm just like in my teeth, my incisors, dude. They just destroy that thing. That's amazing. All right. Which fellow music style would you call to help you bury a dead body? I'm calling my buddy Nile Horn. I think he would do it with me. Nice. All right. That's a good, that was quick. You were like,

I know, and I would do it. He owes me one. And the last one of these for Got Reaction, first artist you'd want next to you on a long bus tour ride. Ooh. Oh my God. My buddy Corey Harper.

Awesome singer songwriter. One of my best friends in the world and just like the funniest man alive. Yeah. Amazing. Got reaction. You were good. That's great. That was fun.

Those are good questions. You were really impressive. All right. Final five, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence. Okay. Usually one sentence. First question.

What is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Be where your feet are. Great advice. Second question. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Played safe. Yeah. Question number three, what's something you used to value that you don't anymore?

I don't value like my physical appearance as much as I used to. Wow. Yeah. Which I could expand. Yeah, please. Oh, I can. No, I only got one sentence. Yeah, no, no, no, I want you.

Like, it took me a long time to be comfortable the way I looked, like my face, the way I look. And, well, I want to be healthy and I want to have better body image. I don't, like, need people to think I'm attractive. And that's been a cool thing. Just kind of be got to be myself. That sounds really freeing. Yeah, it's dope. Yeah, that's awesome, man.

I love hearing that. Question number four, what's something that you didn't value that you value now? My time. I think I was, I value my time more than I, I, I vowed my time more than I ever have. I always wanted to grind so hard and be the dog that just like works as hard or harder than anybody else. And now I'm like so much like this is my time. I'm going to do what makes me feel good in this moment instead of like feeling like I need to be doing a million things. I love that.

And fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? That's a great. That is a great question. I was going to say using your blinker when you turn, but that's actually already a law and people just don't follow it. that's a great answer if I could create one law you are not legally allowed

to post videos of fireworks like I'm so tired of seeing people post videos of like 4th of July I'm like dude that looks horrible no one sees what you're fucking trying to look at you're laughing your hands are shaking

like just enjoy the fireworks dude that's it's brilliant that is hilarious we've never had that in the history of the show so that is a great answer I might actually like I might need to like start petitioning

for that to become a real law I love it No way, you are such a good time. I hope you genuinely felt seen and heard today on the show. I hope you felt you got to share in a safe space what you're going through. Really did, man. And long may this continue. I hope you'll come back.

Hope we'll do a lot more of this. Dude, totally. And yeah, let's go play pickleball or something sometime. I love to hang out of you outside of it. And I appreciate being on the show. It's really cool experience and very helpful. And hopefully people hear this. And yeah, like we both want, feel heard.

So thank you, man. Thank you, man. Thank you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin. Follow your own inner guide. It directs us.

It might not make sense. It might not make sense to us. Might not make sense to anyone else. Certainly won't make sense to anyone else. And that's okay. It's fine. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.